New Faculty Series: CAREER Proposal Panel Discussion

College of Engineering Author

11/08/2016 Added

148 Plays

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CAREER Proposal Panel Discussion at the College of Engineering New Faculty meeting.

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[00:00:00.589]All of these breakfast mixers
[00:00:01.760]because there are over
[00:00:03.353]45 new faculty affiliated to the
[00:00:05.304]college of engineering
[00:00:06.739]and just in case they aren't able to
[00:00:08.826]attend you should know if you
[00:00:11.432]happen to be in that case that
[00:00:13.533]on our college of engineering webpage
[00:00:16.248]there is a link here that under faculty
[00:00:18.693]that says Faculty Development Videos
[00:00:20.766]and if you click there there will be
[00:00:22.812]the recordings of all these breakfast mixers.
[00:00:26.807]Sorry hold on let me
[00:00:29.361]zoom in,
[00:00:30.360]so the first one was on promotion and tenure
[00:00:32.121]there was on one grad student recruitment
[00:00:33.613]there was one on how to do your webpage.
[00:00:36.344]So they're all pretty short like 30 to 40 minutes
[00:00:38.713]and those of you who have been here and
[00:00:40.431]probably maybe didn't weren't here
[00:00:41.990]and couldn't watch it in person then
[00:00:44.184]these videos are here
[00:00:45.352]so same thing we are recording today as well so
[00:00:48.433]we're sitting this morning talking about
[00:00:51.195]NSF CAREER proposals and yes we have a number of our
[00:00:53.862]CAREER awardees in the college with us
[00:00:57.434]and we also have Tisha Mullen Gilreath
[00:01:00.413]did I get that order right, Gilreath Mullen?
[00:01:03.145]Okay Tisha Mullen sorry.
[00:01:05.803]Okay Tisha Mullen who's
[00:01:08.040]a proposal development director
[00:01:11.069]the director of the office of proposal development
[00:01:13.489]at UNL's Office of Research and Economic Development
[00:01:15.459]which is changing names now right
[00:01:17.579]so hopefully there won't be so many words.
[00:01:19.660]And we also have Tim Terrel with us
[00:01:21.419]from the college of engineering
[00:01:22.798]senior grants manager.
[00:01:24.639]So, I didn't prepare as much of a PowerPoint today
[00:01:28.780]but just to I mean hopefully we all know
[00:01:30.852]what the CAREER proposal is.
[00:01:34.532]It's sponsored by the National Science Foundation
[00:01:36.834]it's officially called the Faculty Early CAREER
[00:01:39.367]Development Program
[00:01:41.303]and I put the link on it here which
[00:01:43.391]many of you have probably looked at before
[00:01:45.709]but I thought Tisha I'm putting you on the spot
[00:01:48.303]but if you don't mind maybe just giving us a
[00:01:49.837]brief introduction to this program or
[00:01:52.481]are you okay with doing that?
[00:01:54.496]Okay yeah we'll have to have you.
[00:01:57.532]Can you come up and they can't hear you
[00:01:59.540]in Omaha unfortunately so I'm gonna give you
[00:02:01.807]which one would you prefer the lapel mic or the
[00:02:04.101]okay.
[00:02:05.118](laughing)
[00:02:10.256]I am not too.
[00:02:11.595]I would never never.
[00:02:14.634]I'll stand behind you no.
[00:02:16.486](laughing)
[00:02:21.704]How many of you know
[00:02:22.898]what the CAREER, is this on?
[00:02:24.748]Can you guys hear me?
[00:02:25.759]Yeah it doesn't app.
[00:02:26.753]It doesn't.
[00:02:27.771]It doesn't make it louder in here
[00:02:28.777]but it goes on.
[00:02:29.777]Okay thumbs up all right.
[00:02:31.839]How many of you know what the CAREER Award Program is?
[00:02:34.494]Yeah so the majority of you
[00:02:35.935]so I probably don't need to say very much
[00:02:37.667]but it is NSF's premiere award program
[00:02:40.910]for early CAREER investigators.
[00:02:43.223]Do every July,
[00:02:45.680]you get three tries at it.
[00:02:47.787]Which is something that's very important
[00:02:50.018]to keep in mind you wanna have a really
[00:02:51.860]good strategy for applying.
[00:02:54.609]The other thing that really
[00:02:58.372]stands out in my mind about CAREER proposals is that
[00:03:01.461]it's a CAREER development proposal
[00:03:04.295]and the thought is that you're gonna become
[00:03:06.681]not just a scientific researcher
[00:03:08.868]but also a teacher scholar
[00:03:10.641]and so you have to have a really robust plan
[00:03:13.401]for education outreach
[00:03:14.900]worked into your research plan.
[00:03:18.395]But I think most of you probably already know that.
[00:03:22.358]The other big thing about CAREER is it comes with
[00:03:24.052]quite a lot of money.
[00:03:25.906]So there's a lot you can do with it.
[00:03:28.085]What else am I missing anything?
[00:03:30.890]Does anybody have any questions right off the bat?
[00:03:33.141]I can't remember Tisha
[00:03:34.244]how much money is it now?
[00:03:35.332]'Cause it's changed right?
[00:03:37.603]It depends on the directorate.
[00:03:39.396](man mumbling)
[00:03:45.801]Well and we just had one awarded
[00:03:48.374]for over 700.
[00:03:50.348]Not in engineering,
[00:03:52.622]it.
[00:03:53.844](woman mumbling)
[00:03:59.155]Remember only the handheld mic can be heard.
[00:04:03.670]It's gonna say 500's the minimum
[00:04:05.876]for the engineering directorate
[00:04:07.326]but that's also the maximum oh see
[00:04:08.772]Lilly has it up on the slide.
[00:04:10.599]Oh, oh.
[00:04:11.595](laughing)
[00:04:15.673]Well and one other that you know
[00:04:18.902]kinda brings up
[00:04:20.729]my best piece of advice if you're thinking about
[00:04:23.373]applying for a CAREER award
[00:04:25.118]contact the program officer
[00:04:27.194]and talk about your plan
[00:04:29.739]and ask questions like that you know what are
[00:04:31.816]you looking at funding around what dollar range
[00:04:34.149]what kind of things are you looking for
[00:04:36.029]for your education and outreach plan?
[00:04:38.091]Different directors fund at different rates
[00:04:39.742]for the CAREER program,
[00:04:40.906]engineering they fund quite a few.
[00:04:42.689]Mathematics hardly any.
[00:04:44.670]So, do talk to the program officer
[00:04:47.350]find out what kind of strategy they're recommending
[00:04:50.159]some program officers say
[00:04:51.849]submit a standard application first
[00:04:54.711]and get the feedback and then use that
[00:04:56.940]to create a really strong CAREER proposal
[00:05:00.987]some program officers recommend the opposite.
[00:05:03.587]So just really do talk to your program officer.
[00:05:07.222]Can I sit down now?
[00:05:09.600](laughing)
[00:05:19.562]All right so here you go.
[00:05:22.102]Here you go Tisha.
[00:05:25.706]All right, so I know you can't hear me.
[00:05:29.019]So I was going to show you here the list that Tim
[00:05:32.914]thanks to Tim Terrel for compiling this for us
[00:05:35.947]these are some of the recent NSF CAREER
[00:05:38.986]recipients in our college.
[00:05:41.739]There are more prior to 2010
[00:05:43.945]but we stuck to just the ones
[00:05:45.181]in 2010 so
[00:05:48.448]Liyan she was here with us
[00:05:50.179]Liyan if you will wave your hand
[00:05:51.641]she's an electrical and computer engineering
[00:05:53.386]one of our most recent ones
[00:05:54.667]just awarded this March.
[00:05:56.455]Xu Li from 2014 in civil also here with us.
[00:05:59.554]Hopefully you're getting them panned for me
[00:06:02.382]Norm thank you.
[00:06:03.707]Jung Yul Lim is also here
[00:06:05.480]from mechanical and materials
[00:06:07.456]from May 2014,
[00:06:08.989]Jung Yul if you'll just wave your hand.
[00:06:11.297]Thank you good.
[00:06:13.096]Jinsong couldn't join us this morning
[00:06:14.763]but Jinsong Huang in MME 2013,
[00:06:16.789]Angie Pannier, Angie's here with us.
[00:06:19.190]Also from 2013.
[00:06:20.856]Linxia Gu from mechanical
[00:06:22.707]also from 2013
[00:06:24.769]and then Shannon Bartelt-Hunt couldn't be with us
[00:06:27.565]she's in civil from 2012,
[00:06:29.570]Wei Qiao here,
[00:06:31.161]he was saying that he was in a recent one
[00:06:32.908]but see you are still
[00:06:34.116]alive from 2010.
[00:06:35.658]And in computer science Mehmet Vuran,
[00:06:40.601]Vuran sorry I always get his name mixed up but.
[00:06:43.498]Really does he go by John?
[00:06:45.320]I have no idea.
[00:06:46.331]So he was from June 2010
[00:06:48.738]and a lot of these folks have kindly shared their
[00:06:52.125]successful career proposal
[00:06:54.133]which we will put into a box a shared box folder
[00:06:58.443]and I will send that link to all of the new
[00:07:00.273]faculty so that you can download them.
[00:07:02.329]We have at least five
[00:07:03.403]and a couple of others that they just wanted to wait
[00:07:06.000]until their proposal finished
[00:07:08.107]or their work finished before sharing them
[00:07:10.066]but I think that repository will grow as well.
[00:07:12.668]So, we're gonna treat this like a panel
[00:07:15.787]so that people could ask questions.
[00:07:17.876]I had some general ideas
[00:07:20.499]to start us off with because
[00:07:22.656]maybe you're wondering sorry
[00:07:24.310]which directorates would be appropriate
[00:07:26.702]to send to how do you figure that out
[00:07:28.525]and then the broader impact part
[00:07:30.499]that has changed I think a lot in the
[00:07:32.352]CAREER program lately and I'd be
[00:07:33.939]interested to know how each of you
[00:07:35.836]incorporated broader impacts
[00:07:37.327]outreach and stuff like that in your
[00:07:39.868]CAREER proposals.
[00:07:41.191]So Tisha you want to make any introductory
[00:07:43.757]marks too?
[00:07:47.612]Maybe we'll just start with like general
[00:07:50.059]guidance, how's that?
[00:07:53.156]Couple of minutes about that
[00:07:54.393]how's that okay.
[00:07:55.388]Does this work?
[00:07:56.398]So I'll give you a little bit of advice
[00:07:59.109]I'll tell you that I'm gonna give you more
[00:08:01.136]advice because I've sat on four CAREER panels now so
[00:08:03.741]the most recent one was four weeks ago.
[00:08:05.985]So,
[00:08:08.000]and it's changed since I got my proposal so
[00:08:10.648]again I can tell you a little bit about
[00:08:12.156]what's in my proposal I'd rather talk about
[00:08:13.596]what's in everybody else's proposals
[00:08:15.541]that I've been reviewing and so
[00:08:17.132]you do need to talk to your program manager.
[00:08:18.898]Most of you are gonna fit within the
[00:08:20.890]engineering directorate there might be some of you
[00:08:23.346]in material or math.
[00:08:25.276]But, you do need to talk to them.
[00:08:28.904]I'm not sure it always helps
[00:08:31.339]and I know they don't wanna hear that but
[00:08:33.477]you do need to talk to them and figure out
[00:08:35.388]at least a white paper of what you're
[00:08:36.889]interested in is they're interested in it
[00:08:38.907]and if they can tell you if they find anything
[00:08:40.992]similar to that.
[00:08:42.427]The proposals that get the highest scores
[00:08:44.718]have a couple things they always have,
[00:08:47.303]one is that it's gotta be a really good idea.
[00:08:50.487]I mean there's no bad idea will get funded
[00:08:53.363]it's gotta be a really good idea,
[00:08:55.015]it has to be something that's logical
[00:08:56.646]for you to be pursuing.
[00:08:59.255]It has to be
[00:09:02.457]something in, well I guess I already said it
[00:09:04.423]logical that you're pursuing
[00:09:05.843]and you need some preliminary data
[00:09:07.428]I mean you do it's not like an R21
[00:09:09.129]I know you're not all NIH people but
[00:09:10.737]you need preliminary data.
[00:09:11.948]And then you have to have at least 40 or 50%
[00:09:16.261]of your proposal has to be dedicated to your
[00:09:18.557]educational objectives.
[00:09:20.143]They need to be an objective
[00:09:21.202]in the same way that your research are an objective.
[00:09:23.153]They need to be evaluated in the same way that your
[00:09:24.867]research is evaluated so you need to have
[00:09:26.470]full assessment, and you don't have to do these things.
[00:09:28.854]I have Mindy Anderson not from the
[00:09:31.423]I'm not gonna say what's her.
[00:09:33.507]The SRC now.
[00:09:35.844]Right and so I pay them and I put them in my budget
[00:09:38.392]and said they will do my surveys
[00:09:40.307]they will make my instruments
[00:09:41.781]they will do all the data analysis
[00:09:43.728]they write that part of my CAREER report every year
[00:09:46.121]like I don't even have to write it
[00:09:47.114]they write it for me.
[00:09:48.473]But you have to have that as a full
[00:09:50.148]part of your proposal any staff citations about
[00:09:52.708]education and it has to be something unique.
[00:09:56.548]If it is that you're gonna teach class
[00:09:59.121]and have undergrad and graduate students in your lab
[00:10:01.363]we don't even hardly look at those proposals
[00:10:03.677]more than a couple minutes.
[00:10:04.687]It has to be something really out there
[00:10:06.948]and unfortunately I think it's gotten ridiculous.
[00:10:08.843]I mean it's gotten so
[00:10:10.212]it has to be like
[00:10:11.495]you are doing something crazy cool.
[00:10:13.536]Now with that being said,
[00:10:14.948]you don't have to invent new things so
[00:10:17.741]they like it when you click into things
[00:10:20.037]that are already on campus like
[00:10:21.340]Sundays With A Scientist or
[00:10:22.881]something that the campus is already doing
[00:10:24.381]but you're adding some new component
[00:10:25.831]and you're doing lots of it like it's gotta be
[00:10:28.042]they don't we don't like online web modules
[00:10:30.757]nobody's ever gonna see those.
[00:10:32.165]If you say I'm gonna develop an online
[00:10:33.962]web module and if you do that you have to tell us
[00:10:36.959]exactly how you're gonna disseminate it how you're gonna
[00:10:38.668]evaluate how you're gonna figure out
[00:10:40.062]who watched it
[00:10:41.060]so it's gotta be
[00:10:42.599]something cool but at the same time we have
[00:10:44.742]so many resources here on campus
[00:10:46.294]that you can come up with something cool
[00:10:48.890]and kind of fit into your program.
[00:10:50.721]The last couple things I would say
[00:10:53.279]be really careful about your letter formats now
[00:10:56.411]the letter formats changed
[00:10:57.646]and they're all really boring and one line
[00:10:59.936]except for the department head letter
[00:11:02.384]so that's changed
[00:11:03.421]and use Tisha and her office
[00:11:06.068]so for my NSF CAREER
[00:11:07.620]they actually shockingly
[00:11:09.220]unlike the last seven days of our lives,
[00:11:12.175]I got it done early
[00:11:14.241]and on my third try and they sent it out for
[00:11:17.373]NSF like an it was a woman
[00:11:19.257]Kathy, is her name Kathy?
[00:11:20.699]She was at NSF for like 20 years
[00:11:23.108]and then I don't know if you know
[00:11:24.580]but she still has her services
[00:11:25.586]but she's a consultant and will review your proposal.
[00:11:27.738]Now she couldn't exactly review for content,
[00:11:29.844]but she reviewed for a lot of things
[00:11:32.164]and I did get it then I don't know if that was the
[00:11:34.234]breaking point or that's what did it
[00:11:36.434]but at the same time she was extremely helpful.
[00:11:39.237]Not even just with science
[00:11:40.677]'cause she could understand the science of mine
[00:11:42.567]but just she's like you didn't say your
[00:11:44.152]objective first in the box
[00:11:45.579]you need to move this and this
[00:11:46.573]you need to say this
[00:11:47.588]and so it was really helpful and I would encourage that.
[00:11:52.647]Yeah, maybe not much yet.
[00:11:54.660](laughing)
[00:11:57.225]So, and maybe
[00:11:59.524]my opinion
[00:12:00.647]I've never contacted the program officer
[00:12:03.562]before I submit
[00:12:05.335]that's why I fail so many times I think.
[00:12:08.240](laughing)
[00:12:09.691]But,
[00:12:10.980]it's good to contact the program officer
[00:12:13.875]maybe not by phone maybe
[00:12:15.364]attend the
[00:12:18.132]review panel
[00:12:19.268]so that may be a very good idea.
[00:12:21.131]I also attended the CAREER review panel
[00:12:24.438]couple of weeks ago
[00:12:26.055]and there was a very
[00:12:28.420]a little bit of change so I focus on
[00:12:30.889]incorporation of the research with
[00:12:33.295]some educational not just join
[00:12:35.596]just yeah but instead of
[00:12:38.357]showing just what they're doing
[00:12:41.179]but actively incorporate the research component
[00:12:44.857]into the education may be an important thing.
[00:12:48.146]But again so talk to the program manager
[00:12:50.862]by attending some of the review panels and
[00:12:54.386]do a review very nicely
[00:12:57.737]and sincerely
[00:12:59.990]and talk to your research at the end of the
[00:13:02.457]career panel meeting a little bit
[00:13:04.300]and the reason why is yeah there are several
[00:13:06.936]programs that may feed to your proposal right so
[00:13:10.340]in biomedical case BME, BBE,
[00:13:13.689]biomedical et cetera so yeah
[00:13:16.037]the reason why we talk to program manager is
[00:13:19.833]select the best program
[00:13:22.059]to fit in so that
[00:13:24.164]that's my advice.
[00:13:26.892]Yeah.
[00:13:28.441]Maybe yeah.
[00:13:29.449](laughing)
[00:13:32.581]Again I have nothing to add.
[00:13:35.271]And,
[00:13:37.881]Jun and Andy how said oh right
[00:13:40.491]so that work for me is the
[00:13:43.389]integration between research and education
[00:13:46.361]and otherwise details
[00:13:48.528]and really fully apply in place
[00:13:50.859]that's my
[00:13:52.614]experience on that.
[00:13:54.841]So with that, will you?
[00:13:57.733]Okay yeah for me the case was simple actually,
[00:14:01.727]I know which program assignment
[00:14:04.838]my proposal they're always three
[00:14:07.186]program actors within the program
[00:14:09.135]so I just submit go
[00:14:11.030]to that program and leave a pick up you know
[00:14:13.521]which panel to put my
[00:14:14.902]proposal in so but
[00:14:17.687]if you don't know which program
[00:14:19.351]you're going to submit
[00:14:21.140]talk to your program director
[00:14:22.776]contact them call them or
[00:14:23.918]send them an email.
[00:14:25.086]Even you know visit,
[00:14:26.413]right, that would be a good idea.
[00:14:30.071]So yeah you need to identify
[00:14:31.437]for CAREER proposals probably identify the right
[00:14:34.238]program and the program manager.
[00:14:36.560]Yeah to submit your proposal.
[00:14:40.276]My another suggestion is if
[00:14:42.613]some program I know some program allow
[00:14:45.317]early CAREER faculty to be the panelist
[00:14:48.063]for CAREER panel yeah
[00:14:50.907]contact the program director if you have this
[00:14:53.648]opportunity and yeah
[00:14:55.147]be sure take this advantage right?
[00:14:57.376]Take this opportunity to
[00:14:59.536]maybe attend the one CAREER panel you know
[00:15:03.390]then in that panel you can review a lot of
[00:15:06.579]proposals which you know are
[00:15:08.516]close to your area of research
[00:15:10.128]okay then you should be able to get an idea of what
[00:15:12.664]proposal will be funded
[00:15:14.344]I eventually cop out for
[00:15:16.495]CAREER panels after I got my CAREER.
[00:15:18.653](woman mumbling)
[00:15:21.940]No,
[00:15:22.941]well it depends on program.
[00:15:25.063]For my program yeah they
[00:15:26.673]I think I went to
[00:15:28.356]two CAREER panels before
[00:15:30.453]and both panel that the one that
[00:15:32.358]couple of you know fully CAREER
[00:15:35.281]yeah faculty they had and they are still
[00:15:37.866]working on their CAREER proposal
[00:15:39.357]so talk to your program manager
[00:15:40.793]maybe they will give you the opportunity you know
[00:15:43.220]to review be the panelist
[00:15:45.204]for CAREER proposals, that would be great you know.
[00:15:48.473]And then if you attended that panel remember what
[00:15:51.414]your CAREER proposal will be funded from your program.
[00:15:54.288](woman mumbling)
[00:16:02.518]You have a microphone
[00:16:04.690]but it's not helping us to hear you.
[00:16:06.448]Oh really?
[00:16:07.462]Okay.
[00:16:10.327]Yeah,
[00:16:12.272]my second suggestion is
[00:16:15.444]talk to your program directors
[00:16:18.079]see if you can you know
[00:16:20.165]attend your panelist
[00:16:22.175]for some info
[00:16:23.612]one CAREER panel
[00:16:24.994]before you start with your CAREER proposal.
[00:16:27.410]I'm not sure you know
[00:16:29.006]different programs have different qualities but
[00:16:31.266]for my program yeah
[00:16:32.528]I do see some
[00:16:34.844]I went to two CAREER panels
[00:16:36.960]and both panels have early CAREER
[00:16:39.081]faculty panelists
[00:16:41.505]before they submit the CAREER proposals okay.
[00:16:46.001]My third suggestion is in my program
[00:16:50.084]my single research is very important
[00:16:52.025]you have to come up with the very
[00:16:54.169]new research idea.
[00:16:57.047]You can't follow others research you know if they're
[00:16:59.589]look at the list of
[00:17:01.497]projects which has been funded
[00:17:05.919]to your program.
[00:17:07.130]If the program's been funded
[00:17:09.576]for many times and
[00:17:12.861]don't follow that topic anymore.
[00:17:15.190]Regarding for CAREER probability look for
[00:17:17.613]something new yeah.
[00:17:19.606]I mean that's for my program but
[00:17:23.263]again talk to your program director
[00:17:25.028]you know they should give you some suggestions on that
[00:17:27.423]you know research project.
[00:17:29.663]Okay that's what I have thank you.
[00:17:36.678]I just want to add one
[00:17:38.996]suggestion
[00:17:40.263]just don't be in a hurry
[00:17:42.115]to submit your first CAREER proposal
[00:17:45.023]you have three chance before you get that so
[00:17:47.059]just read and then submit it.
[00:17:52.106]I just wait until my third year
[00:17:55.180]and submit it and got that year,
[00:17:58.569]I would use printing you so I submitted and
[00:18:01.900]also I can tell you
[00:18:04.703]I've never been to
[00:18:06.945]the panel before I submit my CAREER
[00:18:09.771]so I just focus on the research part and
[00:18:12.770]figure out the new idea.
[00:18:15.539]And before I beginning
[00:18:18.784]the first of two year I didn't think long
[00:18:21.654]I just follow my CAREER research parts
[00:18:23.871]based on that purity on the improvement research so
[00:18:27.262]it's not kind of new it's just
[00:18:29.477]incremental research or something
[00:18:31.811]that kind of improvement.
[00:18:33.741]So if you're ready
[00:18:35.726]in third year I figure also new idea
[00:18:38.786]and then I submit it
[00:18:40.609]and then I got it so
[00:18:43.041]just not
[00:18:44.655]common don't be in a hurry.
[00:18:46.852]You will waste your chance maybe
[00:18:49.120]okay, maybe you can get the first time success.
[00:18:53.455]Is that great.
[00:18:54.853]Okay just.
[00:18:57.680]Just a comment about this story
[00:19:00.299]I heard maybe you can correct me that
[00:19:02.354]if you wait out for too long
[00:19:04.193]it might be also,
[00:19:05.665]yeah because like if you apply third time as a
[00:19:09.063]fifth year assistant professor
[00:19:12.219]they might not consider you as a early CAREER
[00:19:14.865]proposal anymore.
[00:19:16.836]Because you already apply for tenure no?
[00:19:19.800](man mumbling)
[00:19:23.857]Already have some good idea right
[00:19:25.629]are already committing to some
[00:19:27.237]brand new research
[00:19:28.447]that could have some I submit in
[00:19:30.447]you know the second year yeah
[00:19:32.607]and I got it.
[00:19:33.983]So depends on I think what she said is
[00:19:37.080]if first two years she couldn't figure out
[00:19:41.504]come up with new idea she still
[00:19:43.588]looking for new ideas.
[00:19:46.406]Yeah depends on your situation yeah,
[00:19:48.288]I think that's what she's very qualified.
[00:19:51.788]I mean I got mine
[00:19:53.663]I put my tenure packet and my CAREER proposal
[00:19:56.035]in at the same time so.
[00:19:57.079]Maybe I'm a slow researcher the first few years
[00:19:59.361]and it might've been I mean that's fine but like
[00:20:01.417]so there is no one formula
[00:20:03.647]for when to do it when not to do it.
[00:20:05.060]For me I'll tell you my first two tries
[00:20:06.500]I tried a topic that was probably incremental and boring
[00:20:08.767]and then my third one
[00:20:11.637]I went closer to my wheelhouse I was trying to go
[00:20:13.790]too far away from my wheelhouse I went
[00:20:15.733]closer to my wheelhouse but more innovated
[00:20:17.267]and I think that's what did it too is that I
[00:20:19.086]finally settled on a topic so I might have just
[00:20:20.690]taken longer to settle on a topic.
[00:20:27.107]I think maybe I'll just share
[00:20:29.500]two things that I did when I prepared my proposal.
[00:20:32.861]The first one is about the research
[00:20:34.627]I remember
[00:20:36.572]the NSF
[00:20:37.854]got in my assist they want research that are
[00:20:39.996]transformative and I tried to
[00:20:43.157]think of a transformative idea
[00:20:46.433]and I just think about
[00:20:48.668]the CAREER proposal's supposed to be something
[00:20:50.521]that the rest of your career build upon,
[00:20:52.557]so how far should I make the idea
[00:20:54.706]transformative how much should be
[00:20:56.842]kind of out there beyond what's the
[00:20:58.868]current knowledge base?
[00:21:00.280]And I talked to some people and they said
[00:21:02.693]they have some really they consider transformative ideas
[00:21:06.431]but the feedback they got back was
[00:21:08.598]there's just not really feasible
[00:21:10.482]or applicable in my field.
[00:21:12.125]So,
[00:21:15.022]what I did was I went to the website
[00:21:17.144]and downloaded all the recent CAREER proposals
[00:21:19.665]from my program just to get a taste
[00:21:21.977]what the my program lacks.
[00:21:24.945]And the conclusion from that was
[00:21:27.817]I think our program was more kind of conservative.
[00:21:29.748]They liked something new but not
[00:21:31.934]quite that far away from
[00:21:34.287]the current knowledge base.
[00:21:36.050]So when I kind of choose a research project
[00:21:38.930]I choose it's something that's significant to the field.
[00:21:41.666]Adds some new component to the
[00:21:45.014]research the knowledge base
[00:21:47.439]but not quite out there and
[00:21:51.283]so that's how I kind of
[00:21:53.218]got designer research component part of the proposal.
[00:21:57.003]And for the education part, I
[00:22:00.247]tried to think of novel education approach
[00:22:03.344]but honestly I couldn't really think of beyond a lot of
[00:22:05.724]you know involving a represented
[00:22:07.752]groups or having a website
[00:22:10.132]things beyond that.
[00:22:12.506]So I kind of turned to the outreach part.
[00:22:15.254]The way I understand outreach would be
[00:22:17.578]rich to the stakeholders
[00:22:19.320]or rich to farmers.
[00:22:20.645]So,
[00:22:22.657]my research I think has some element
[00:22:25.362]that can be connected to the agricultural community.
[00:22:28.243]So like I said my research component
[00:22:30.292]sorry the education component was more of a
[00:22:32.369]outreach than just the education.
[00:22:35.821]I'm not sure if the successful strategy
[00:22:37.906]but at least the review comments back
[00:22:39.917]they were not criticized on that part.
[00:22:41.905]So if your research can have an
[00:22:44.692]agriculture component
[00:22:46.310]you can think of kind of using the
[00:22:48.785]extension network that UNL already has a pretty strong
[00:22:51.959]network out there and I think that could be
[00:22:55.186]a potential way of doing your research
[00:22:57.599]sorry education component.
[00:23:01.122]That's great thank you,
[00:23:03.750]I had one question to follow up which was
[00:23:06.642]Angie you said you were on a panel recently
[00:23:08.744]could you tell that there were people
[00:23:10.723]who were getting it in
[00:23:11.886]their second year fifth you know did you
[00:23:13.940]see anything like that or
[00:23:15.860]was that really not--
[00:23:18.355]So NSF does not allow resubmissions.
[00:23:20.402]So there is no resubmission like,
[00:23:24.097]you can't tell,
[00:23:27.268]I've been on the same panel four years in a row
[00:23:29.618]so we know exactly who has resubmitted and not
[00:23:32.014]and we get scolded by the part of officer
[00:23:34.581]a lot when we say they did a way better job this year
[00:23:36.872]and they're like you can't say that.
[00:23:38.402]And so
[00:23:41.417]yeah I mean there's probably a sprinkling of
[00:23:43.938]them that were new
[00:23:46.338]I mean I'll tell you I only know a lot about NSF
[00:23:49.765]and NIH and I don't know how many of you are NIH,
[00:23:52.316]NSF the review process is just much nicer
[00:23:55.511]better and fairer than NIH.
[00:23:58.928]And so every proposal gets reviewed,
[00:24:01.105]every single NIH 50% don't get reviewed.
[00:24:03.020]Every proposal in effect gets discussed
[00:24:06.466]every single one and so when you get your
[00:24:08.276]summary statement back like
[00:24:10.595]it was crafted by the panel
[00:24:13.419]and you know written by three people
[00:24:15.426]but still it really is
[00:24:17.139]meaningful and we spend a ton of time on ours
[00:24:19.263]trying to hide comments in there.
[00:24:21.696]So, you have to really read them
[00:24:24.569]and so that's why it might be a motivation
[00:24:26.232]to get it in before too long
[00:24:27.586]so that you get review on it
[00:24:29.026]because I mean at least our panel which is
[00:24:30.539]the CBET BBE panels
[00:24:32.799]like Friedrick made us
[00:24:34.625]write them so high messages in there that
[00:24:37.155]you need to do this and this and this
[00:24:39.186]but we didn't say it quite like that.
[00:24:40.634]But the other thing about NSF is that that
[00:24:43.999]program officer is in the room with the review
[00:24:46.400]so if you call them after you get your
[00:24:47.848]summary statement, they can tell you about
[00:24:49.731]what happened in that room.
[00:24:51.183]NIH has no idea,
[00:24:52.544]but they can tell you no the panel really didn't like this
[00:24:55.356]and another thing I'll say is that we read
[00:24:58.693]some really beautiful ones, the educational components
[00:25:01.211]you really could not have written it better
[00:25:03.275]but the science was so bad
[00:25:04.862]that they didn't get funded
[00:25:06.251]so your educational component is not gonna carry you
[00:25:08.325]and your research could carry you
[00:25:10.997]but not anymore not in this climate
[00:25:13.095]now it's so competitive.
[00:25:14.306]The educational component's gotta be
[00:25:16.104]very very creative and strong too.
[00:25:18.131]For instance like you were talking about
[00:25:19.778]an example of including the research
[00:25:21.500]in the education I talked to a scientist that is
[00:25:24.803]he was taking measurements of water in streams
[00:25:27.586]that was the data he was gonna collect
[00:25:30.658]but he decided to go have high school teachers
[00:25:33.538]collect it for him.
[00:25:35.720]That's perfection of an educational objective.
[00:25:40.212]That kind of now a lot of us can't do that
[00:25:42.166]I can't have the late public
[00:25:44.258]using stem cells so it's just
[00:25:48.057]yeah.
[00:25:50.004]Just won't call in, so
[00:25:52.795]I don't think
[00:25:54.025]maybe I don't necessarily you don't have to
[00:25:55.901]too much worry about this
[00:25:56.995]second submission third submission
[00:25:58.512]the same contents because
[00:26:00.002]reviewers are changing so
[00:26:02.466]yeah Angie attended four years
[00:26:04.974]in a row but maybe 50, 60% of the reviewers
[00:26:07.698]maybe changing I don't know.
[00:26:10.163]And then only three people are reviewing so
[00:26:13.091]maybe a whole new three people of
[00:26:15.447]yeah new set of people may be reviewing
[00:26:17.317]your proposal so
[00:26:19.209]and also
[00:26:20.652]couple of weeks ago when I went to the
[00:26:23.189]CAREER panel,
[00:26:25.164]PME?
[00:26:27.057]Yeah, the program director
[00:26:28.226]said to us
[00:26:31.606]so, her headache was
[00:26:33.450]yeah okay, the last years of you were
[00:26:34.969]suggested this change
[00:26:36.729]and I changed like that.
[00:26:38.155]And I get a bad score again.
[00:26:40.146]So when the applicant emailed me like that
[00:26:43.982]that's my headache so
[00:26:45.912]do not suggest too much so
[00:26:48.533]that was her opinion so
[00:26:50.786]just stay focused
[00:26:52.098]while you can do well.
[00:26:54.162]And then get some preliminary data to
[00:26:57.075]show some tangibility of your plan
[00:26:59.614]and I don't know so that's just key point
[00:27:01.928]keep publishing.
[00:27:03.678]Yeah that may be the way to go.
[00:27:06.940]Can we ask questions?
[00:27:07.935]There's a question in Omaha
[00:27:10.407]but we can't hear you.
[00:27:12.548]Oh, yes I can hear Chung Wood
[00:27:14.249]but let's start with Pravad first
[00:27:15.813]thank you then we'll go to Chung Wood.
[00:27:17.263]Thank you for all your suggestion
[00:27:18.896]it's really helpful,
[00:27:20.265]question is you know new idea
[00:27:21.803]versus track record.
[00:27:24.244]You know have you have a track record
[00:27:25.806]in sensing and modeling
[00:27:27.042]either the manufacturing or you just
[00:27:29.349]throwing something out there
[00:27:30.878]like you know and that's my area
[00:27:32.875]so how do you balance that track record
[00:27:34.675]versus something totally new
[00:27:36.713]or which way does it skew?
[00:27:38.574]Just quick comment
[00:27:39.602]so the program director told us
[00:27:41.543]to not measure by the track record so
[00:27:44.735]yeah do not measure the proposal so
[00:27:47.770]assess the proposal as it is
[00:27:49.994]to not yeah yeah
[00:27:52.386]assess based on the publication record et cetera.
[00:27:55.864]But yeah.
[00:28:00.088]We are seeing that yeah.
[00:28:02.094]So yeah,
[00:28:03.694]funding record
[00:28:04.814]publication record so
[00:28:06.753]that's we have to see still
[00:28:09.393]and I cannot say.
[00:28:15.108]Any other responses to that question by Pravad?
[00:28:19.233]No, Chung Wood what was your question in Omaha?
[00:28:22.164]Well actually Nicholas
[00:28:23.604]I think related to the question that he asked
[00:28:25.477]when you talked about preliminary data
[00:28:28.382]does it have to be associated with publications or
[00:28:31.156]no?
[00:28:33.426]Okay.
[00:28:34.422]So how do you demonstrate?
[00:28:37.389]Yeah.
[00:28:39.512]I think the answer is yes.
[00:28:43.708]It doesn't have to be related to publications.
[00:28:45.967]Again depends on programs right.
[00:28:48.749](laughing)
[00:28:51.214]Yeah ours is no it doesn't have to be
[00:28:53.234]associated with papers.
[00:28:55.192]It depends on the program.
[00:28:57.810]Yeah, well my program I think you have
[00:29:00.762]at least a population of maybe
[00:29:02.898]one or two papers
[00:29:04.594]if you yeah related to your
[00:29:06.393]CAREER proposal.
[00:29:09.107]And ours is not like that
[00:29:10.483]but you gotta have some strong preliminary data.
[00:29:12.818]Okay.
[00:29:13.962]Angie you also mentioned about that
[00:29:16.227]someone helped you with the
[00:29:18.075]educational component right?
[00:29:20.739]The Office of Proposal Development can
[00:29:23.547]work with you
[00:29:25.181]and they can sit down and tell you here
[00:29:26.771]I mean they have like a binder
[00:29:29.138]probably much bigger than a binder of opportunities
[00:29:31.312]in the state.
[00:29:32.498]Okay.
[00:29:39.140]Oh no Angie's doing such a good job selling it.
[00:29:41.500](laughing)
[00:29:44.916]No but seriously I mean that education
[00:29:46.755]and I would argue you have a really good point
[00:29:49.219]about including the outreach in addition to the education
[00:29:52.848]because I think that is becoming critical
[00:29:55.546]now that you do really have to have the both
[00:29:57.452]just doing the education is not good enough anymore.
[00:30:00.321]But come and you know give me a call shoot me an email
[00:30:03.549]I'll sit down with you talk about
[00:30:05.304]what your research idea is
[00:30:07.198]what kinds of audiences you might find
[00:30:09.705]enjoyable as far as executing an outreach
[00:30:12.430]and education plan you know this has to be
[00:30:15.520]something that you really enjoy
[00:30:17.523]or you're not gonna do it and it'll come through
[00:30:19.155]in the proposal as being not
[00:30:21.922]particularly viable, something that
[00:30:24.088]you're not really into and that kills proposals too
[00:30:27.969]so we'll just have a conversation.
[00:30:30.098]We'll try to identify some target audiences for you
[00:30:32.651]see what kinds of programs are already out there
[00:30:35.124]that you might be able to tap into
[00:30:36.690]I think Angie was right on you know
[00:30:38.689]you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
[00:30:40.271]See what's out there, see what you can tap into
[00:30:42.621]and see what you can bring new to that
[00:30:44.347]particular program or activity
[00:30:46.029]and then we can actually help you write
[00:30:48.030]we can make some introductions
[00:30:49.867]we can help you write that
[00:30:51.369]component of your proposal
[00:30:53.071]and we can help set you up with someone who can do
[00:30:55.418]usually Mindy Henderson not who can do the
[00:30:57.722]evaluation component because
[00:30:59.461]really you do have to have a standalone
[00:31:01.754]evaluation assessment component
[00:31:03.052]for your education outreach plan.
[00:31:04.886]And one of the things that we see
[00:31:07.284]when people just send us a draft of their CAREER proposal
[00:31:09.802]I would say 99% of 'em do not have
[00:31:12.274]an evaluation plan for their education outreach
[00:31:15.405]so that's something that you can get dinged
[00:31:17.085]right off the bat for by reviewers.
[00:31:20.472]And the thing is you know how we write
[00:31:21.464]research proposals like two days before
[00:31:23.749]Tisha knows I do that.
[00:31:26.032]You can't do the educational component
[00:31:28.845]two days before you have to have a letter
[00:31:30.770]from every person.
[00:31:32.567]Like if you say you're gonna work with a teacher,
[00:31:33.851]you can't just say I'm going to find a random teacher
[00:31:36.104]in LPS like you need a letter
[00:31:37.618]from LPS or from the teacher like you need a letter
[00:31:40.425]so there's no evaluation criteria
[00:31:43.032]that we use as a reviewer but at the same time
[00:31:45.180]gonna be like how are you gonna find these people?
[00:31:47.425]Who was the person you're gonna work with?
[00:31:51.373]Yeah.
[00:31:53.215](people mumbling)
[00:31:56.338]So the division director within civil
[00:31:59.109]presented it was a word of mouth meeting at our
[00:32:02.258]TRB conference two years ago
[00:32:04.049]and initially it was standing room only
[00:32:06.406]and then there was no room to stand.
[00:32:08.209]And one thing that they were talking about
[00:32:11.097]was that your CAREER proposal
[00:32:13.705]within our area
[00:32:15.574]cannot be linked to your dissertation work
[00:32:18.354]it has to be completely separate from your advisor
[00:32:21.302]and it has to stand on its own
[00:32:23.240]but at the same time we need to get
[00:32:25.927]publications related to
[00:32:27.708]this new idea
[00:32:29.781]so there's this
[00:32:32.210]working backwards this very tight timeline of
[00:32:35.845]switch ideas,
[00:32:37.501]generate research on that idea,
[00:32:39.769]get a publication on the idea
[00:32:41.187]and then propose
[00:32:42.886]where going next that nobody else has gone
[00:32:45.555]and it's threading the needle to such a degree I'm
[00:32:49.731]feeling a little overwhelmed by the whole
[00:32:52.127]likelihood of it.
[00:32:54.326]I'm sorry.
[00:32:55.649](laughing)
[00:32:57.388](woman mumbling)
[00:33:01.144]We're sorry.
[00:33:04.070]Yeah that's why she said you know
[00:33:05.734]for some programs you know
[00:33:07.815]yeah integrate
[00:33:09.393]maybe the certain year you start to submit your
[00:33:11.335]you can use the first two years to you know
[00:33:13.955]get up your preliminary data you know?
[00:33:18.159](woman mumbling)
[00:33:21.043]Yeah I have publication I just
[00:33:24.231]submitted before I submit my CAREER.
[00:33:27.650]I just maybe polled my students
[00:33:31.026]and the gas result knowledge
[00:33:32.720]and I believe I just submit
[00:33:34.694]a lighter knowledge the full transaction paper
[00:33:37.953]just a lighter maybe to appear publish
[00:33:40.080]appearing shorter than the regular transaction paper so
[00:33:44.772]I chose to select that's lighter
[00:33:46.663]and to make sure it is
[00:33:48.695]accept it at least accept it
[00:33:51.007]before you submit.
[00:33:53.669]Yeah.
[00:33:54.770]You can ask these questions I mean
[00:33:56.391]ask 'em right up,
[00:33:57.673]who how many
[00:33:59.017]awardees have a publication on I mean just ask
[00:34:01.938]they're pretty nice people actually.
[00:34:05.478]Yeah I think my case was actually I
[00:34:07.693]completely changed topic because my PH dissertation
[00:34:10.371]topic was it's a dead end for future studies.
[00:34:13.043]So I submit my first try in the third year
[00:34:16.063]and so that's I think that time
[00:34:18.379]have a couple papers from the new
[00:34:20.038]research area and it helps to have the
[00:34:22.194]unpublished preliminary data.
[00:34:24.180]So for me that was sufficiently convincing
[00:34:27.309]at least the first round that was doable
[00:34:30.072]and then the second time
[00:34:31.412]the fourth year when I submitted
[00:34:33.488]I think there was no question to ask about
[00:34:35.254]whether I'm about doing that proposed research or not.
[00:34:40.716]Just very brief follow up,
[00:34:42.791]my plan is first year recruit the student,
[00:34:45.259]second year train my new grad student on this
[00:34:47.507]area we're both going into,
[00:34:49.358]and the third year get some preliminary results
[00:34:51.174]and get the CAREER out there
[00:34:53.015]that seemed like a logical plan.
[00:34:57.447]Yeah that's a
[00:34:59.107]early CAREER faculty you know
[00:35:01.322]I think you still need to do some more
[00:35:03.813]hands on work instead of get out
[00:35:05.144]your PhD student
[00:35:07.892]or masters student for the other work
[00:35:10.058]you know you have to go to the lab you know
[00:35:12.525]lab to work on your project.
[00:35:15.125]Yeah.
[00:35:16.456]We have a long time till summer.
[00:35:18.372]This isn't due for a long time.
[00:35:24.240]Yeah I have basically two questions
[00:35:26.712]along the same line so
[00:35:28.149]regarding the preliminary
[00:35:29.310]do you think it's a good idea
[00:35:30.779]to ask the program manager
[00:35:32.191]to get ideas whether the program
[00:35:34.705]really appreciates to have preliminary or not?
[00:35:37.997]The second question is let's say I have
[00:35:39.923]two different names
[00:35:41.038]and one before one name I have been rated
[00:35:43.008]and for the rest of the 12 I don't
[00:35:44.499]what should I do then?
[00:35:46.254]Don't use more eight.
[00:35:50.634]That's an NIH word.
[00:35:52.392]And us that are.
[00:35:53.841]Objectives right?
[00:35:55.256]NIH and NSF
[00:35:56.235]anyone that is that's true
[00:35:57.741]anyone that's thinking that they might
[00:35:59.357]normally apply NIH but they were
[00:36:01.169]applying NSF, this has got to feel like
[00:36:03.069]an NSF proposal which is not an NIH proposal
[00:36:05.720]so that means that it's too healthy
[00:36:07.637]if there's not science to be learned,
[00:36:10.165]if you say the word aim it just reads if
[00:36:12.736]you don't wanna get that comment where
[00:36:14.721]they'll make us delete it but we always write
[00:36:16.591]this reads a lot like an NIH proposal
[00:36:18.403]and then that's gonna take it.
[00:36:20.666]But that's fine you can't have preliminary data
[00:36:22.481]on everything that's fine.
[00:36:24.902]Is it a good idea to ask
[00:36:26.077]the program manager and just bluntly ask--
[00:36:28.296]I'd definitely have a conversation with them
[00:36:30.194]but no none of them are gonna say
[00:36:32.092]oh no, no preliminary data's fine.
[00:36:33.545]Oh.
[00:36:34.693](laughing)
[00:36:39.991]Maybe for that question I think
[00:36:41.887]you hear the program director
[00:36:43.686]one thing they will tell you how to review
[00:36:46.032]or they respond to your proposal.
[00:36:47.621]Every person gonna respond differently
[00:36:49.037]what I would suggest is we can have the proposal
[00:36:50.898]have some colleagues in the department
[00:36:53.059]to take a look at it to see if they would do
[00:36:54.758]a convincing job to convince them
[00:36:56.156]that you can do the work.
[00:36:57.493]I think if that point is conveyed I think that
[00:36:59.605]probably all right
[00:37:02.190]whether you have that published preliminary data or not.
[00:37:09.233]Yeah can I ask of you,
[00:37:10.901]do you have a witness report
[00:37:12.495]are you in shop?
[00:37:13.883](laughing)
[00:37:15.733]Do you have preliminary data in yours?
[00:37:19.867]I did I do
[00:37:21.287]but in my program they don't need it but
[00:37:23.934]they're not say mandatory ask for preliminary results.
[00:37:28.885]Like you can show from your publications also
[00:37:33.017]but if you don't have this
[00:37:35.487]learn the publications
[00:37:37.626]you can put in your preliminary results.
[00:37:39.208]Just show because this one could cure it
[00:37:41.563]you will see me in the panel they could ask for
[00:37:43.925]if this person can carry on the
[00:37:46.517]proposal project or not.
[00:37:48.536]So as a reviewer we have to just find
[00:37:50.901]if you can carry on.
[00:37:52.249]So that's those things that we can
[00:37:54.069]look at it from preliminary result
[00:37:55.838]from publications either way.
[00:37:57.566]I know this is our panel so sometimes
[00:37:59.876]a lot of reviewer
[00:38:01.858]the first thing they do is look at your CV
[00:38:04.069]after doing your project exam they look at
[00:38:06.965]your CV to see this guy's
[00:38:08.990]you know what's the connection between this?
[00:38:10.997]And because some reviewer just look at your
[00:38:14.370]proposal maybe couple
[00:38:16.287]very short time right?
[00:38:19.957]Very short time so if you don't scale
[00:38:23.099]your project summaries yearly
[00:38:25.661]just to anything right
[00:38:27.579]obviously it's just wasted
[00:38:29.705]so that's I got my you know.
[00:38:32.606]Yeah I think yeah this
[00:38:34.165]whether you should have preliminary data still
[00:38:36.735]depends on what you propose.
[00:38:38.921]I mean if you worked
[00:38:40.430]with your proposal you really knew I mean
[00:38:42.695]the expert area yeah yeah it's crazy idea
[00:38:45.017]you know the panelists they've never heard about this.
[00:38:47.834]You have to prove that by preliminary data.
[00:38:51.477]But what you propose it's just follow the
[00:38:54.197]regular tracking of research area
[00:38:56.392]everybody knows okay this is feasible.
[00:38:58.976]I mean this is everything about the feasibility
[00:39:02.233]whether the panel will believe the feasibility
[00:39:05.000]of your research.
[00:39:07.485]No really, no really I mean
[00:39:10.556]you know work available areas
[00:39:12.542]if you can still come obviously new research
[00:39:15.436]like new components new you know so
[00:39:17.110]I think most proposal funded even in this category
[00:39:21.395]like the new component you know to
[00:39:24.164]the area which has been starting the floor for some time.
[00:39:27.604]Yeah but I do see some,
[00:39:30.837]I did see some
[00:39:32.405]breakthrough ideas you know.
[00:39:34.581]Just like urgency
[00:39:37.354]right away like breakthrough totally different from
[00:39:40.815]the existing party funded
[00:39:43.701]in that program.
[00:39:46.645]Yeah so in that case you have to
[00:39:48.416]convince the panel you know this is feasible.
[00:39:52.082]Okay and preliminary data is probably important.
[00:39:56.111]In terms just brief comment
[00:39:57.845]in terms of the preliminary data
[00:39:59.643]let's say if you have a one
[00:40:01.600]one and two I'm sorry one two three
[00:40:03.961]so then let's say if you have preliminary data
[00:40:06.421]so 80% for the object one
[00:40:08.738]so zero and 0% for the
[00:40:11.321]objective that we
[00:40:13.127]looks not good.
[00:40:14.812]So maybe 40% for the projected one
[00:40:18.320]30%, 40% stuff like that
[00:40:20.167]some evenly distributed
[00:40:22.393]may be better, because it is very easier
[00:40:25.462]for the reviewer too to comment like
[00:40:27.757]okay hang one
[00:40:28.905]supported by preliminary data
[00:40:30.870]but hang 23 I don't believe it
[00:40:33.523]so it's very easy to say like that so
[00:40:35.117]yeah just evenly distributed preliminary data
[00:40:38.741]may be better.
[00:40:40.910]Or it can be kinda weak,
[00:40:42.112]right, it's preliminary for a reason so
[00:40:44.737]if you can just have anything that says
[00:40:47.146]look at this shows we know how to grow this cell
[00:40:49.066]or we know how to make this mathematical model
[00:40:50.939]like it can really reach,
[00:40:52.821]it can be that too it can really reach in.
[00:40:56.001]Find it.
[00:40:58.051](man mumbling)
[00:41:02.399]This preliminary data going back to that,
[00:41:04.958]this can be based I can say I wrote a publication
[00:41:07.317]in preliminary but
[00:41:10.175]where do make it am but I have three papers in that.
[00:41:14.165]Will that be a good thing to do?
[00:41:16.589]Yes yes, actually that's my case
[00:41:18.677]actually my CAREER proposal the topic was
[00:41:23.271]different from my
[00:41:25.397]PhD research
[00:41:26.808]but has some connections.
[00:41:29.351]Yeah I work on
[00:41:31.300]the management system for my KC also
[00:41:34.508]my CAREER proposal is based on the power grid
[00:41:36.910]of high power treatment but
[00:41:38.902]the problem is different
[00:41:40.116]from my dissertation research
[00:41:42.717]and the approach is different but I have
[00:41:45.572]the track record in that area I mean
[00:41:47.989]that's okay.
[00:41:50.165]And you wanna brag about yourself
[00:41:51.608]this is a proposal about your career so
[00:41:54.185]they do have to get braggier than
[00:41:56.406]other proposals and that's hard
[00:41:58.501]and I think that was my first two
[00:42:00.989]if I go back and read 'em they were very
[00:42:02.668]this is what I'm gonna do this is what I do
[00:42:04.244]it has to be more like I've done this
[00:42:05.621]and I've done all these amazing things
[00:42:06.997]and now I can have a whole career built on this
[00:42:09.242]and it's gotta be kinda braggy
[00:42:11.446]but not arrogant so good luck.
[00:42:13.319]Okay, so I.
[00:42:15.534](people mumbling)
[00:42:19.441]I want to add one more sentence
[00:42:20.995]because for this preliminary result
[00:42:23.136]off track of that part I think
[00:42:24.598]you need to guide the reviewer how to look at it
[00:42:26.752]it's not say I publish the anxiety
[00:42:28.565]you must guide them using the words
[00:42:30.365]to say you know how this is relevant
[00:42:32.677]to a proposal right now.
[00:42:34.482]So you must guide them
[00:42:36.431]because sometime as a reviewer I overlook your stuff.
[00:42:39.548]That's fine, you must look at me
[00:42:42.199]to look at your stuff carefully so.
[00:42:50.373]So can you hear me?
[00:42:52.485]Yeah okay so I just wanna change
[00:42:55.540]and ask I guess to be very confident
[00:42:58.214]to answer on statistics
[00:42:59.768]like about three things like
[00:43:02.094]how many times did you
[00:43:04.229]from the panel did you guys apply?
[00:43:06.427]How many times did you change the topic
[00:43:09.158]and what year did you win that?
[00:43:11.351]So just to get like an idea about
[00:43:13.623]when the curve
[00:43:15.721]centered.
[00:43:18.536]Okay for me I started on my proposal
[00:43:21.162]in first year and of the first year I got it so
[00:43:23.488]nothing else to say yeah.
[00:43:25.011]But.
[00:43:27.368]Yeah third time so two times failure
[00:43:30.854]and also I applied my third career proposal with my
[00:43:34.272]yeah tenure evaluation packet.
[00:43:38.248]I'm the same it was my third I put it in with my
[00:43:39.750]package.
[00:43:41.392]My first two were a different topic
[00:43:43.537]and went to a different
[00:43:44.967]directorate and so my third time
[00:43:48.561]I switched directorates, topics,
[00:43:50.310]and I put it in with tenure.
[00:43:53.413]I also changed the topic in the third try.
[00:43:56.134](laughing)
[00:43:59.892]I'm on the same boat but I
[00:44:02.611]don't change my topics I just
[00:44:05.449]based on comment add some details.
[00:44:07.273]First I see I put too much stuff
[00:44:09.206]so I think I can do a lot of things
[00:44:10.936]but there are lack of details
[00:44:12.672]so later I just refined them
[00:44:14.299]give it all some
[00:44:15.430]some kind of objectives and the folks
[00:44:19.110]asked me to fix them.
[00:44:21.427]I am the first try on my third year
[00:44:24.585]and I got it so.
[00:44:28.162]Second try in fourth year.
[00:44:30.795](laughing)
[00:44:36.054]So fourth and fifth on average.
[00:44:40.643]I had a quick question.
[00:44:42.521]Got the mic right now but which was
[00:44:44.850]Tisha they are going to work with your office
[00:44:47.330]when is a good timeline for them to
[00:44:49.387]getting ready or drafts and stuff like that?
[00:44:53.191]It really depends on
[00:44:55.542]how involved you would like our office to be
[00:44:58.909]because we can help from the very beginning
[00:45:01.396]to help you conceptualize things
[00:45:03.985]or we can come in closer to the end.
[00:45:05.872]So, kind of depends if you want
[00:45:08.625]to take advantage of all of our services
[00:45:11.150]I would say start getting in touch with me
[00:45:13.063]January February,
[00:45:15.367]you should all be aware that we'll also be hosting
[00:45:18.254]the Office of Research has an annual
[00:45:20.261]career award workshop
[00:45:22.200]right now that's set for March 2nd.
[00:45:24.558]It'll be on city campus,
[00:45:26.932]that's tentative at this point,
[00:45:28.540]but you'll definitely want to
[00:45:30.753]participate in that workshop if you can.
[00:45:35.450]But early early don't come to us the week before
[00:45:39.051]the proposal is due because there's
[00:45:40.801]very little we can to really help you
[00:45:43.341]and the more hands on we can get with your draft
[00:45:45.784]the better it is for you
[00:45:48.922]so early early early,
[00:45:50.515]but it depends it's just like
[00:45:52.339]you know I think the whole point of this panel
[00:45:53.862]is there's no standard operating procedure right?
[00:45:57.314]I will also point out that if
[00:46:00.669]I think Angie mentioned our NSF consultant
[00:46:03.616]we're hoping to have her available again this year
[00:46:06.357]to consult on CAREER proposals and in order to
[00:46:09.311]take advantage of that consultation opportunity
[00:46:11.589]you do need to be working with the
[00:46:12.920]Office of Proposal Development.
[00:46:14.345]So get on our schedules let us know
[00:46:15.963]that you're planning on submitting a proposal.
[00:46:18.416]And we also do have our expert external review service
[00:46:22.586]I don't know how many of you are familiar with that
[00:46:25.119]but we offer that for any proposal going to
[00:46:27.584]an external funder.
[00:46:29.309]If you will commit to having a draft
[00:46:31.268]to your proposal ready a month in advance
[00:46:33.442]of the deadline, we can arrange for that proposal
[00:46:36.073]to have panel-like feedback
[00:46:37.810]prior to submission so that can be really helpful
[00:46:40.936]as well and we'd love to send as many CAREERs out
[00:46:43.230]through that service as possible.
[00:46:49.010]I might just add to that
[00:46:51.270]as far as getting there early
[00:46:53.278]the educational outreach portion
[00:46:55.645]it's important well to spend time on that
[00:46:58.888]as it has been discussed
[00:47:00.834]and you need to do that early because
[00:47:03.072]you need to make those contacts if you're working with
[00:47:05.693]Mindy or whatever because
[00:47:09.475]that needs to be strong
[00:47:11.043]and so the earlier you get involved with that
[00:47:13.579]especially if you're not really familiar with
[00:47:15.644]how to market that portion
[00:47:17.665]then that's a good reason to get involved early.
[00:47:21.839]Well and a question I have a question
[00:47:23.521]for those of you who have served on CAREER panels,
[00:47:25.983]it shows, does it show when a proposal doesn't have
[00:47:29.263]a true...
[00:47:36.301]Outreach component does it appear to--
[00:47:38.188]Yeah.
[00:47:39.193]Yeah so.
[00:47:40.186]Did you wanna, yeah?
[00:47:41.199]My program, I'm sorry yeah,
[00:47:43.230]for my program I think that the educational part
[00:47:47.071]cannot be weak.
[00:47:50.017]Yeah you have to have a strong
[00:47:51.311]and it cannot be reckless you know
[00:47:53.670]that's my point but
[00:47:55.754]for the two CAREER panels I attended,
[00:47:57.821]I think a research part is more important frankly speaking.
[00:48:01.543]Oh absolutely, and then again
[00:48:03.193]there's also difference across directorates
[00:48:05.615]so directorates really place a lot of emphasis
[00:48:08.179]on the education outreach some not so much so
[00:48:10.021]again you know talk to the program officer find out
[00:48:13.385]and look at proposals that have been funded
[00:48:15.895]the previous year.
[00:48:17.329]Right but I'll say that
[00:48:18.524]education part is not important
[00:48:21.587]it's very important but
[00:48:23.744]if you don't have a very strong research part
[00:48:26.959]only educational part that's not enough.
[00:48:29.615]Absolutely.
[00:48:30.622]But yeah the research part
[00:48:32.585]and also the outreach part cannot be
[00:48:33.836]the weakness of your proposal at least.
[00:48:35.765]But if you have the best research proposal ever written
[00:48:37.542]in the face of humankind
[00:48:39.622]and you say I'm gonna teach it to classes,
[00:48:41.711]it will not get funded either.
[00:48:43.312]That also will not get funded.
[00:48:44.371](woman mumbling)
[00:48:49.674]One more I see oh sorry, John.
[00:48:51.841]I should just find out.
[00:48:52.833](laughing)
[00:48:54.593]Okay so,
[00:48:56.467]your two now
[00:48:58.484]compliant would be draft an outline of
[00:49:01.668]what I wanna do for my proposal and then focus on
[00:49:03.695]getting those preliminary results and
[00:49:05.985]fill in that proposal with
[00:49:09.118]more content and then at the end of your three
[00:49:11.445]that would be the one the first the middle
[00:49:13.336]went in for most people.
[00:49:14.517]See what it looks like this summer.
[00:49:17.514]You don't wanna push it I mean
[00:49:19.008]we wish we didn't get it on the third try
[00:49:20.690]right before tenure.
[00:49:21.808](laughing)
[00:49:26.987]Maybe an unrelated questions but I know that
[00:49:29.427]there are other CAREER programs as well from DOE
[00:49:31.803]there's an NIH program called Mira
[00:49:34.111]and I know that there are people from this campus
[00:49:36.129]who got it.
[00:49:37.135]Is there any initiative from the college to
[00:49:38.943]get them involved as well like a panel like this?
[00:49:41.553](man mumbling)
[00:49:44.868]Yeah we can look into that
[00:49:46.344]we don't have that already done.
[00:49:48.010]Jun Wuk last question oh sorry continue.
[00:49:49.915]Yes, yes.
[00:49:51.490]For yourself you know
[00:49:53.290]requires every research areas
[00:49:55.069]but for other program and particularly DOE
[00:49:56.853]you have to work on like a single office
[00:49:58.991]only of signs.
[00:50:00.655]Yeah there are many other offices
[00:50:02.135]in DOE that'll have the career you know
[00:50:04.061]I work with a lot of these EIE
[00:50:06.955]and efficient manage they don't have career.
[00:50:10.061]Only office of.
[00:50:18.871]But,
[00:50:20.297]if you work on basic science
[00:50:22.203]you know like engineers some who work on sets
[00:50:24.627]basic research, like computer science you know
[00:50:27.007]computer science in general
[00:50:28.383]the office of science program for that.
[00:50:30.354]you are all so kind for staying so long
[00:50:32.783]one last question Jun Wuk.
[00:50:34.116]So speaking of serving as a review panel
[00:50:36.658]is it possible to specifically say that I wanna be
[00:50:39.698]in the CAREER panel and if so, if yes,
[00:50:43.363]what's the procedure do I just have to
[00:50:46.660]email the program manager or
[00:50:48.839]can you tell me how to be able to serve
[00:50:50.994]on a CAREER panel?
[00:50:53.340]Yeah just say you're interested on serving on
[00:50:55.376]any panel you would like to serve on a CAREER panel
[00:50:57.389]but you would also serve on a standard panel
[00:50:58.921]just ask 'em if you can do it
[00:51:00.579]I mean all they can say is no and they
[00:51:02.612]usually won't say no.
[00:51:03.918]Okay, thanks.
[00:51:06.459]All right, thank you all so much
[00:51:08.786]thank you Xu, thank you Liyan,
[00:51:10.452]thank you Way, thank you Rachel,
[00:51:11.513]thank you Danielle, thank you Angie,
[00:51:12.519]thank you too.
[00:51:13.823]And thank you all so much
[00:51:15.487]we can hang around some more if you want
[00:51:18.856]but we'll get this posted,
[00:51:20.751]I'll get those proposals sent out to everybody
[00:51:23.257]have a great week oh I was gonna tell you
[00:51:25.594]that we're cancelling next Monday's
[00:51:28.171]discussion panel on research because
[00:51:31.583]ORED is doing their own for us.
[00:51:33.984]And so rather than duplicate efforts we're gonna cancel
[00:51:36.798]I'll send that out by email but just so you know
[00:51:38.770]so we have one more breakfast disert
[00:51:40.516]it will be on grad student development
[00:51:42.185]ah this is wrong, grad student development.
[00:51:44.143]I'll fix these slides before I send it out.
[00:51:46.841]Thanks everybody.

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New Faculty Series: CAREER Proposal Panel Discussion

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