True Islam: Human Rights, Faith, and Women

Shirin Ebadi Author

02/27/2013 Added

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In her presentation, Nobel Laureate Shirin Ebadi will tie the efforts she’s made on behalf of women and religious minorities to the world of religious freedom, all while focusing on the importance of human rights throughout. This unique program will help the audience understand the importance of tolerance, perseverance, and belief in human rights for all; and most importantly share easy tools anyone can use to make a difference. http://enthompson.unl.edu/

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[00:00:16.000]The United States is now engaged in many parts of the world,
[00:00:20.000]especially the Muslim world and that's a subject that Dr. Ebadi
[00:00:25.600]is going to speak to.
[00:00:27.333]We're encountering this every day in our foreign policy and
[00:00:31.967]having to find ways to deal with countries that identify
[00:00:35.533]themselves as Muslim, for example.
[00:00:37.734]I also believe that this topic is of critical importance
[00:00:42.433]because we all care about human rights, we care about freedom of
[00:00:47.367]religion, about the rights of women. Those are all issues
[00:00:51.333]that Dr. Ebadi is going to address in the context of lamb
[00:00:55.900]and -- Islam and trying to identify what Islam teaches.
[00:01:01.433]I find her title -- intriguing. It's important for
[00:01:10.500]American to understand there
[00:01:12.200]are many interpretations of Islam.
[00:01:13.600]We're familiar with the jihadists and the terrorists,
[00:01:18.133]which is one that is divisive, the vast majority of Muslims
[00:01:22.467]do not subscribe to this understanding of their religion.
[00:01:26.533]They view Islam as a religion that teaches the unity of all
[00:01:31.200]people, in fact the Koran says that all human beings are
[00:01:37.467]children of Adam and Eve and should be members of the same
[00:01:40.667]family. It also says that nations should come to a better
[00:01:43.433]understanding of one another, should cooperate with one
[00:01:45.734]another. These are teachings that I think many Americans
[00:01:48.300]don't know about.
[00:01:48.867]But if we're going to be so heavily engaged in the Islamic
[00:01:52.734]world as we are, it's important that every American have this
[00:01:54.834]more refined understanding and I think Dr. Ebadi is going
[00:01:59.800]to help us achieve that.
[00:02:02.900]Islam is a face.
[00:02:04.767]And a way of life.
[00:02:09.000]A way of peace.
[00:02:09.867]Peace with God, peace with oneself, and peace with
[00:02:18.133]the creation of God.
[00:02:20.200]The rules of submission, to God and
[00:02:26.033]the commitment to his guidance.
[00:02:27.300]Now neither Mohammed, Jesus nor -- peace, we upon them, have
[00:02:34.967]came to changes of the -- of the one God, the same God.
[00:02:41.367]That has been brought by the earlier prophets.
[00:02:46.400]But it was both a confirmation and renewal of that belief.
[00:02:54.000]Islam is a divine message that follows and continues the
[00:02:58.934]same moralistic methods and religions of Mohammed, and
[00:03:06.967]Jesus. The main differences, the essence of
[00:03:10.967]the message is the same.
[00:03:14.400]We also have a remarkable community of Muslim mainly
[00:03:21.300]from Bosnia, Sudan and Iraq.
[00:03:25.233]With no doubt such topic can help build a great mutual
[00:03:34.066]respect and understanding in the community.
[00:03:38.266]The status of women and Islam and the rights of women and
[00:03:43.700]Islam is one of the most controversial and misunderstood
[00:03:47.033]topics in Islam.
[00:03:48.900]There is a lot of misinformation about Islam.
[00:03:57.200]There is misrepresentation by the media or also there is
[00:04:04.900]misunderstanding by individuals.
[00:04:07.367]So there is a concern about that conflicting views.
[00:04:12.133]So bringing that topic for the public and for the -- to open
[00:04:19.734]the dialogue so we can learn and clarify the complex view, it is
[00:04:30.834]very important nowadays.
[00:04:32.767]I am so excited that Dr. Ebadi is coming to Nebraska.
[00:04:36.600]I think she is a remarkable individual, she has shown great
[00:04:42.533]courage, she is a model to so many human rights advocates.
[00:04:46.600]As someone who has passionately devoted her life to the service
[00:04:50.166]of the rights of others.
[00:04:52.500]Whether women, children, people of other religions.
[00:04:55.934]And I think it is a great privilege for us
[00:04:58.867]to have her here.
[00:05:00.166]♪ Music ♪
[00:05:01.033](Applause)
[00:05:27.533]Good evening.
[00:05:30.166]I'm honored to welcome you to the Thompson forum on
[00:05:34.567]international issues.
[00:05:36.433]The University has partnered with the lead center for the
[00:05:40.233]performing arts to bring to Lincoln thoughtful speakers to
[00:05:44.066]engage the University of Nebraska community and the
[00:05:46.266]general public in important issues that affect all of us in
[00:05:48.567]this contemporary world.
[00:05:50.633]The lecture series is named in honor of
[00:05:57.433]the late E.N. Jack Thompson.
[00:05:58.500]Few individuals were as supportive to
[00:06:02.300]the University as he.
[00:06:02.734]We're grateful to the foundation for its support.
[00:06:06.100]This evening's lecture is the Lewis Harris
[00:06:11.734]lecture on public policy.
[00:06:12.667]This was created to examine major public policy issues and
[00:06:15.934]to provide a special opportunity for interaction between
[00:06:18.400]students, the business community and the academic
[00:06:22.500]community in Nebraska.
[00:06:22.900]The Harris lecture was endowed by the SmithKline course to
[00:06:27.500]honor its former chairman, the late Lewis B. Harris, founder of
[00:06:32.233]Harris laboratories, one of the leading independent scientific
[00:06:35.533]testing and research laboratories.
[00:06:37.667]We're indebted to the Harris family for
[00:06:40.367]their continuing support.
[00:06:41.200]It is now my honor to introduce Dr. Shirin Ebadi.
[00:06:45.166]And welcome her to the University of Nebraska Lincoln.
[00:06:48.934]As an Iranian lawyer and human rights activist Dr. Ebadi was
[00:06:54.000]awarded the Nobel peace prize in 2003 for her significant and
[00:06:58.633]pioneering efforts in democracy and human rights, especially the
[00:07:02.700]rights of women and children.
[00:07:03.934]She is the first Iranian and first Muslim woman to receive
[00:07:10.834]the prize. She's the founder and leader of the association
[00:07:13.567]for children's rights in Iran, the author of a number of
[00:07:17.233]academic books and articles focused on human rights and has
[00:07:20.567]had several books translated into English.
[00:07:23.233]In 2006 random house published her member war, Iran awakening.
[00:07:29.934]At the conclusion of this evening's lecture Dr. Ebadi
[00:07:34.133]will be available for signings in the lobby.
[00:07:37.033]She has spoken out clearly and strongly in her country of Iran
[00:07:41.433]and far beyond its borders. She has stood up as a professional
[00:07:45.266]person who has argued for a new interpretation of Islamic law
[00:07:48.767]which is in harmony with vital human rights such as democracy,
[00:07:52.400]the quality before the law, religious freedom,
[00:07:56.400]and freedom of speech.
[00:07:58.133]She earned a law degree from the University of Tehran, from 1975
[00:08:03.233]to 79 she served as the president of
[00:08:06.967]the city court of Tehran.
[00:08:07.300]After the revolution in 1979, she was forced to resign.
[00:08:11.967]Previously a professor at the University of Tehran she now
[00:08:17.467]works as a lawyer. She has been involved in a number of
[00:08:20.567]controversial political cases.
[00:08:22.500]She was the torn for families of writers and intellectual who
[00:08:26.467]were victims of the serial murders in 1999-2000. She was
[00:08:31.233]worked to reveal the principals behind the attacks at Tehran
[00:08:36.500]University in 1999 where several students dies. She has been
[00:08:42.433]imprisoned on numerous occasions much she has displayed great
[00:08:47.834]personal courage defending individuals and groups. And her
[00:08:50.567]ability to cooperate with representatives of various views
[00:08:53.633]leads me to present to Dr.
[00:08:56.266]Dr. Shirin Ebadi one of the highest honors the University of
[00:08:59.433]Nebraska Lincoln can award.
[00:09:00.734]To present the award I would invite Dr. Ebadi
[00:09:05.633]to join me on the stage.
[00:09:07.200](Applause)
[00:09:18.233]Since 2000 the University of Nebraska Lincoln has on occasion
[00:09:22.367]conferred the which Willa S. Cather medal
[00:09:28.800]service to the world at large.
[00:09:32.567]neb nebs's moat internationally renowned author.
[00:09:37.066]She achieved preeminence by expressing special relationships
[00:09:42.967]among people facing the challenges of the frontier.
[00:09:47.567]persons who have responded to the frontiers of human rights,
[00:09:51.266]the humanities or the arts.
[00:09:53.233]Past recipients of this award include former Soviet Union,
[00:09:59.934]Archbishop Desmond TuTu, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg and
[00:10:06.266]William H. Rehnquist.
[00:10:10.734]Please accept this award for your courageous
[00:10:13.934]and humanitarian life work.
[00:10:15.834](Applause)
[00:10:33.734]Please welcome Dr. Ebadi to present this evening's
[00:10:39.467]E.N. Thompson forum titled "True Islam: Human Rights,
[00:10:45.600]Faith, and Women" (Applause).
[00:10:56.600]A respectable chancellor of the University, and respectable
[00:11:09.500]professors, your students, ladies and gentlemen:
[00:11:29.467]I am very glad that I had the opportunity to come to your
[00:11:32.867]state, your state which produces food, and the to meet
[00:11:41.133]its very warm and nice people.
[00:11:45.333]And I'm also very proud to be speaking at
[00:11:50.300]this university with you.
[00:11:58.734]And I want to thank the University for the very valuable
[00:12:05.033]medallion that I received tonight.
[00:12:13.934]I will place it on my desk as a symbol of
[00:12:22.700]the kindness of your people.
[00:12:30.066]And I also want to thank all the organizers of tonight.
[00:12:51.200]Ladies and gentlemen, yesterday was the beginning of the
[00:12:54.033]negotiations of the government of the United States with the
[00:12:56.500]government of Iran regarding the nuclear issue.
[00:13:08.433]These negotiations continue, and the results
[00:13:12.467]have not been announced yet.
[00:13:32.400]I hope that they reach a desirable conclusion and the
[00:13:36.800]government of Iran accepts the resolutions of the
[00:13:45.433]-- United Nations and the international
[00:13:50.133]community and enforces them.
[00:13:54.500]In the past month the gallop institute published statistics
[00:14:01.033]which are very surprising to me.
[00:14:20.600]The gallop institute claims that upon a study that has been
[00:14:24.834]conducted in Iran over 50 percent of the people of Iran
[00:14:28.567]agree with the nuclear program of the government.
[00:14:43.000]And regarding the relations between Iran and America, over
[00:14:47.567]60 percent of the people think America is at fault.
[00:15:00.233]The important issue here is that
[00:15:04.333]the government of Iran does not permit live people
[00:15:12.967]to go and take statistics.
[00:15:21.000]The government of Iran is a police state, a security state.
[00:15:24.900]And people do not have the right of free speech. So the study is
[00:15:37.600]being conducted by Gallop via telephone and e-mail.
[00:15:51.133]It's very natural that in a police state people do not dare
[00:15:55.467]speak against the government.
[00:16:10.133]Just imagine sitting in your living room, someone calls and
[00:16:13.333]asks you do you think that Iran is at fault or America.
[00:16:17.300]What do you think that person is going to respond?
[00:16:23.600](Laughing in audience).
[00:16:27.100]Specifically with regard to the fact that most telephone
[00:16:30.000]conversations are under control and tapped.
[00:16:48.300]And also e-mails are under control. So when one receives
[00:16:51.300]an e-mail asking them whether they agree with the nuclear
[00:16:57.533]program, very few may say what they want to say.
[00:17:07.633]And as a professor of a university, I'm surprised how
[00:17:12.100]Gallop has published these statistics.
[00:17:24.300]In general one of the oppositions of the people to the
[00:17:27.700]government is the issue of nuclear energy.
[00:17:31.433]People do not agree with that program.
[00:17:46.800]This is not good for the environment in Iran, and besides
[00:17:50.467]the fact that Iran is located on earthquake faults.
[00:17:54.000]And there is always the danger of an event like
[00:18:01.734]the Fukushima event.
[00:18:16.400]Insisting on the nuclear program and on the continuation
[00:18:20.567]of that program has resulted in placing sanctions that have
[00:18:26.800]resulted in the poverty of the people.
[00:18:38.467]Therefore as an Iranian I really am suspicious of the results
[00:18:43.533]that gallop has published.
[00:18:54.934]The other objection of the people of Iran to the government
[00:18:58.567]is the foreign policy of the government.
[00:19:16.100]And this wrong foreign policy has resulted in the -- I will
[00:19:20.667]give you an example.
[00:19:43.200]Whereas as a result of the uprising of the people in Syria,
[00:19:46.667]100,000 people have been killed over a million have been
[00:19:51.500]dispersed and are refugees.
[00:19:54.834]And -- bombard these people.
[00:20:09.967]The government of Iran, through sending military personnel, arms
[00:20:16.133]and money supports special attacks and helps them in
[00:20:19.834]killing his own people.
[00:20:38.767]Also during the past month a ship was forfeited during which
[00:20:46.767]process arms were found on the ship that the government of Iran
[00:20:49.767]had exported for the people of Yemen, for the people who were
[00:20:55.700]about to rye I don't think -- riot in Yemen.
[00:21:13.467]Iran has committed many wrongs in its foreign policy. I just
[00:21:16.734]gave you a few examples. But what I want to say here is that
[00:21:20.133]the foreign policy of Iran has resulted in its isolation.
[00:21:35.367]And the other issue is the very strong objection of the people
[00:21:40.200]to violation of -- violations of human rights in Iran.
[00:21:51.700]The people of Iran in 1979 through a revolution
[00:21:59.700]toppled the Monarchy.
[00:22:13.000]But asking a dictator does not guarantee a democracy.
[00:22:33.367]And we have seen recently in the Arab spring in countries like
[00:22:39.300]Egypt, like Libya, like Tunisia, the dictators have
[00:22:44.967]been ousted but we still don't see democracy there. And this
[00:22:55.100]is why the people of these countries, specifically people
[00:22:57.800]of Egypt, state that the revolution is still ongoing.
[00:23:16.767]After the revolution in Iran, a religious Islamic government
[00:23:21.300]came into existence which is even stronger dictatorship than
[00:23:26.934]the Shah's regime.
[00:23:35.033]Because religious dictatorship is stronger
[00:23:42.433]than political dictatorship.
[00:23:47.166]After the revolution of 1979 many changes
[00:23:53.500]were made in the law.
[00:24:02.066]For example, in the laws, discrimination on the basis of
[00:24:05.667]religion has been approved.
[00:24:11.367]And I will give you a few examples of those.
[00:24:32.367]Pursuant to the law, the life of a woman is worth
[00:24:37.767]half of that of a man.
[00:24:38.934]This means that if me and my brother go on the street and get
[00:24:42.567]involved in an accident, and are injured the same, the
[00:24:47.166]compensation paid to me is half of that paid to my brother.
[00:24:59.400]Pursuant to the law, testimony of two women in court equal
[00:25:03.266]testimony of one man.
[00:25:13.133]A man can marry four wives.
[00:25:17.333]He can divorce his wife any time he pleases. But divorce is very
[00:25:21.133]difficult for women, sometimes even impossible.
[00:25:28.700]And many other discriminatory laws.
[00:25:40.734]These laws have been imposed on a society which has very well
[00:25:47.433]educated and meritorious women.
[00:25:54.133]Over 60 percent of the university students
[00:25:59.834]in Iran are female.
[00:26:03.867]Many of our university professors are women.
[00:26:13.200]Women are present in all social professions.
[00:26:25.166]The women of Iran gained the right to vote over 50 years ago.
[00:26:30.300]And they were elected to the Parliament.
[00:26:32.800]This is even before women in Switzerland gained such vote.
[00:26:47.100]Evidently these discriminatory laws are not compatible with the
[00:26:52.433]merits of Iranian women.
[00:27:04.633]This is why women do not agree with the government of Iran and
[00:27:08.533]the feminist movement is very strong in Iran.
[00:27:17.233]Also pursuant to the law, discrimination on
[00:27:21.133]the basis of religion exists.
[00:27:36.667]The official religion of the country, Shi'ism, but there are
[00:27:43.700]other religions, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, have been recognized.
[00:27:59.467]This means that other religions are not recognized officially.
[00:28:04.700]For example, Baha'I.
[00:28:17.700]And the Baha'Is are deprived their rights, they have been
[00:28:28.934]prohibited from attending Universities.
[00:28:43.500]But discrimination is not only against the Baha'Is, even the
[00:28:48.233]religions that have been recognized in
[00:28:53.033]the law are not equal to the Islam.
[00:28:59.133]I will give you an example now.
[00:29:13.200]Pursuant to the penal code, an act,
[00:29:21.400]if committed by Muslim and a non-Muslim
[00:29:35.166]can bear different punishments.
[00:29:42.633]Pursuant to the law, if a woman and a man, neither of them being
[00:29:48.000]marry married, get involved in sexual
[00:29:51.834]relations, they have committed a crime.
[00:29:53.800]The crime bears 100 lashes of flogging for each person.
[00:30:20.533]But if the girl is a Muslim and the man is a non-Muslim, for
[00:30:26.400]example a Christian, the punishment of the girl would
[00:30:29.867]still be the 100 lashes of whipping, whereas the punishment
[00:30:34.934]of the man would increase to death penalty.
[00:30:47.967]And of course it's more expanded than the example that I gave
[00:30:51.567]you, but I will suffice with the one example.
[00:31:04.200]Freedom of speech in Iran is very limited.
[00:31:26.400]Pursuant to a report of the reporters without borders, so
[00:31:31.667]far as respect for freedom of speech of the media is
[00:31:36.433]concerned, among 179 countries, Iran is the 174th.
[00:31:57.633]Unfortunately the number of political and ideological
[00:32:01.200]prisoners is very high.
[00:32:14.333]The slightest criticism on even writing an article can result in
[00:32:20.133]the arrest and imprisonment of the person.
[00:32:44.000]In many instances it has been seen that people break their
[00:32:47.867]silence and admit against themselves under torture and
[00:32:53.834]then their admission is televised.
[00:33:15.200]And this is why sanctions have been placed against Iran in
[00:33:19.934]regards to the use of satellites for broadcasting programs that
[00:33:26.266]Iran prepares for the -- for outside the country.
[00:33:44.266]But the more important issue that I want to talk about
[00:33:46.734]tonight is what is the justification of Iran for having
[00:33:51.100]passed these discriminatory laws.
[00:34:01.934]The government of Iran claims that these laws
[00:34:07.300]are based on Islamic Shiria.
[00:34:24.500]The government tells the people, you're either a Muslim and you
[00:34:28.333]accept these laws, or you're not a Muslim and heresy, of course,
[00:34:33.667]bears one of the very strong punishments that
[00:34:37.800]we can think of.
[00:34:48.033]Like any other religion and eye ideology,
[00:34:54.433]Islam has different interpretations.
[00:35:05.767]In the west there are churches that accept abortion, there are
[00:35:09.300]churches that do not accept abortion,
[00:35:13.400]and they're both Christian churches.
[00:35:36.967]I remember approximately two years ago I was speaking at one
[00:35:41.000]of the very well-known Universities in America.
[00:35:45.000]The pastor of the church there came to me and very openly and
[00:35:49.767]easily stated that he was gay and he introduced
[00:35:54.066]his partner to me.
[00:36:06.133]Whereas there may be other pastors or priests that do not
[00:36:08.934]agree with that and prohibit it.
[00:36:13.433]Whereas they all follow the same religion.
[00:36:22.333]Therefore it's not strange if I say that Islam
[00:36:27.767]has different interpretations too.
[00:36:35.400]If we look at the plight of women in different Islamic
[00:36:40.100]countries, we can prove that.
[00:36:52.500]For example, in Saudi Arabia,
[00:36:57.633]women cannot even drive.
[00:37:02.567]Let alone holding political positions.
[00:37:30.767]But in a country like Indonesia, which has the most number of
[00:37:35.700]Muslims, the population is over 200 million Muslims, a woman
[00:37:40.834]was -- became the president years ago.
[00:37:54.500]Or in countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan, for years ago we
[00:38:00.700]have had women, Prime Ministers and presidents.
[00:38:08.734]And so please let me know which one of these countries
[00:38:13.266]are enforcing Islam.
[00:38:35.333]Or punishment such as cutting off the hands of a thief or
[00:38:41.100]stoning, there are only enforcing in very few countries.
[00:38:46.233]For example Saudi Arabia.
[00:38:47.367]And unfortunately in Iran, after the revolution,
[00:38:52.333]such laws were passed.
[00:39:09.033]But many other Islamic countries have put an end to such
[00:39:14.533]punishment, like Indonesia, Tunisia,
[00:39:30.133]-- Egypt.
[00:39:33.100]Therefore as we can see, the non-democratic governments that
[00:39:37.533]are Islamic, like the government of Iran, abuse the word "Islam"
[00:39:43.600]in order to justify their dictatorship.
[00:40:03.734]But right here I have to state that I believe in separation of
[00:40:09.834]church and -- or state, or separation of any religion and
[00:40:16.300]ideology from the government.
[00:40:27.300]This way the governments cannot abuse the emotional beliefs of
[00:40:33.633]people. But if people freely elect a president, for example,
[00:40:53.533]from an Islamic party, what do we do then?
[00:41:09.734]Like what happened in Iran in 1979
[00:41:14.633]1979, over 95 percent of the population of Iran voted for an
[00:41:18.433]Islamic government.
[00:41:30.900]Sore what has happened in Tunisia and Egypt recently,
[00:41:35.800]people have voted for an Islamic party.
[00:41:52.233]Under these conditions we have to say that the democratic
[00:42:00.433]characteristic of a government is not only dependent on the
[00:42:04.333]votes of the people.
[00:42:12.800]Let's not forget that many dictators were elected by the
[00:42:17.600]votes of the people, like Hitler.
[00:42:24.266]Therefore winning an election does not mean democracy.
[00:42:34.266]Democracy has a framework which has to be observed.
[00:42:51.033]This means that the majority that have been elected by the
[00:42:55.600]people have to work within that framework.
[00:43:05.333]The framework of democracy is the standard of human rights.
[00:43:23.567]In other words, governments don't get their legitimacy only
[00:43:27.367]from the votes of people.
[00:43:29.233]They get their legitimacy from the votes of the people and
[00:43:33.800]respect for human rights.
[00:43:48.900]Fortunately Islam is a religion that if
[00:43:53.900]interpreted correctly will -- has the potential of
[00:43:59.133]compatibility with human rights.
[00:44:14.133]And Islamic governments do not have the right to disregard
[00:44:18.066]standards of human rights on the basis of religion or the fact
[00:44:21.600]that they have gained the votes of the people.
[00:44:35.467]Cultural relativity in no way permits violations
[00:44:40.333]of human rights.
[00:44:52.200]And this is an issue that Muslims have to pay
[00:44:57.467]allot of attention to.
[00:45:18.867]I hope that the people who have up risen in Arabic countries
[00:45:25.834]like Egypt, like Libya, and like Tunisia do not face the same
[00:45:30.200]destiny that the people of Iran faced.
[00:45:38.066]In Iran people have been fighting for
[00:45:42.967]democracy for years.
[00:45:52.367]But the people of Iran have had a revolution and eight years of
[00:45:57.967]war with Iraq during the last 34 years.
[00:46:01.033]And they are tired of blood shedding.
[00:46:12.066]That's why they want reform.
[00:46:14.166]This means that whatever happens has to be peaceful.
[00:46:21.834]And fortunately Iran has good
[00:46:25.767]potential for reform.
[00:46:29.867]The war -- workers movement is very strong in Iran.
[00:46:36.934]The feminist movement, the student movement are
[00:46:40.533]both very strong in Iran.
[00:46:47.667]The civil society in Iran is very active.
[00:46:59.200]And I'm sure that democracy will come to Iran.
[00:47:09.900]And until that day each Iranian will continue
[00:47:16.033]his or her struggle.
[00:47:20.533]Thank you very much for having listened to me.
[00:47:22.900]If there are questions, I'll take them.
[00:47:26.033](Applause).
[00:47:40.133]Thank you very much.
[00:47:41.600]If you have questions, please get a card from one of the
[00:47:45.000]ushers and write your questions on the card.
[00:47:47.633]Give it back to the ushers, and they will bring them to the
[00:47:50.967]front so that we can ask those questions this evening.
[00:47:55.133]While waiting for some questions to come from you and the
[00:47:58.600]audience, let me begin with a question that comes from one of
[00:48:02.166]the students in the Thompson scholars.
[00:48:06.500]What limitations do you think a strict theocracy like Iran would
[00:48:13.200]face if democratic rights were afforded to all people?
[00:48:39.166]I gave you my explanation of democracy.
[00:48:55.867]And I said that in a democracy the government has to be elected
[00:48:59.800]by the votes of the people and has to observe
[00:49:04.633]the standards of human rights.
[00:49:22.533]And since the first principle of human rights is equality of all
[00:49:29.100]people, regardless of gender, regardless of religion,
[00:49:33.066]regardless of race and so on, if democracy comes, all of the laws
[00:49:38.834]that I talked about tonight here, which are discriminatory,
[00:49:43.166]have to come to an end.
[00:49:45.300]And be repealed.
[00:49:53.800]And as I said earlier, I want to add that the people of Iran
[00:49:59.734]have been fighting for
[00:50:04.533]years for democracy.
[00:50:09.967]And every day the number of the opposition grows, and the
[00:50:14.900]government loses its space among people.
[00:50:25.533]Under these conditions, only a foreign enemy or a military
[00:50:30.333]attack would be to the advantage of the government.
[00:50:46.834]This means that if Iran is attacked
[00:50:51.266]attacked militarily, the people will forget about their
[00:50:53.633]differences with their government and
[00:50:56.266]defend their country.
[00:50:56.600]And again, it means that democracy will be postponed.
[00:51:05.867]Democracy can only grow in a -- in a peaceful country.
[00:51:21.834]This is why the people of Iran, although they have strong
[00:51:27.033]criticisms against the foreign policy of Iran, they still are
[00:51:31.166]against a military attack on Iran.
[00:51:36.967]How should the United States respond to and deal with Iran or
[00:51:43.000]the kind of follow-up to the last question, what can or
[00:51:46.533]should the United States or other western governments do to
[00:51:50.467]help promote reform in Iran?
[00:52:12.734]Any change in a society has to come from within the society.
[00:52:22.200]Democracy is not merchandise to be exported to a country.
[00:52:28.300](Applause)
[00:52:52.633]The best thing that the western countries can do
[00:52:56.000]is not to help the dictators.
[00:52:58.734]People know what their duties are.
[00:53:03.734](Applause)
[00:53:07.233]I want to give you an example.
[00:53:16.433]As we know, all dictators are corrupt,
[00:53:21.767]and they have stolen a lot of money.
[00:53:24.033]Where do they take their money?
[00:53:27.700]They deposit them in Europe -- in your banks.
[00:53:33.633]Don't accept dirty money.
[00:53:37.967](Applause)
[00:53:50.967]When the dictators are toppled or when they retire
[00:53:54.367]and -- what do they do?
[00:54:03.367]They purchase palaces in America and Europe
[00:54:10.066]and live comfortably there.
[00:54:11.066]Don't let them in.
[00:54:13.133](Laughter)
[00:54:19.567]Therefore the most important issue is not
[00:54:23.133]to help the dictator.
[00:54:28.967]But intervention in the domestic affairs of other
[00:54:32.700]countries is not correct.
[00:54:40.767]Fighting for democracy and human rights is a duty of the people
[00:54:43.900]of Iran, and they're doing that very well.
[00:54:49.767](Applause)
[00:54:56.967]Would you talk more about how feminists or women are active in
[00:55:01.300]Iran under such oppressive observation from
[00:55:06.266]the government or control?
[00:55:33.633]In Iran women who fight for equal rights are
[00:55:37.900]oppressed by the government.
[00:55:45.667]At the present time we have over 50 feminist women in prison.
[00:55:57.233]The charges brought by the prosecutor against them is
[00:56:02.233]having taken measures against the national security.
[00:56:10.133]I represented some of these women,
[00:56:25.767]and when I was in court, I told the prosecutor if a woman
[00:56:29.567]says I don't want my husband to marry another wife, does that
[00:56:33.533]mean that America is going to attack us?
[00:56:37.066](Laughing)
[00:56:48.200]Unfortunately courts are not independent in Iran.
[00:56:58.266]And one of the fines of the weakness of democracy is when
[00:57:05.000]courts do not have independence.
[00:57:13.900]And this is why many of our feminists are in prison.
[00:57:23.033]But for each woman put in prison, ten replace them.
[00:57:33.533]And I will give you an example from one of my clients so that
[00:57:37.667]you will know better how women fight.
[00:58:00.266]My client who was a young woman, was a journalist.
[00:58:04.467]And the prosecutor had taken her to court for having written a
[00:58:10.867]few articles criticizing the government.
[00:58:32.166]When the investigation started, the prosecutor formed her that
[00:58:37.033]if she plays -- pays a very hefty bail, that he would
[00:58:41.967]release her until the trial started.
[00:58:51.934]But then this young girl said, no, I'm -- I can't do that.
[00:58:57.000]But I will promise you to be present on the day of trial
[00:59:00.834]because I'm innocent and I'm -- there's nothing to be afraid of.
[00:59:05.166]I haven't done anything wrong.
[00:59:24.133]But the prosecutor got very angry at her and said that, I
[00:59:29.166]will send you to prison, and I will keep you with women who
[00:59:32.867]have committed murder so that you will
[00:59:35.667]understand what that is.
[00:59:35.967]Then you'll come to me and ask to place bail and be released.
[00:59:49.066]And since she did not ask for bail, they sent her to jail.
[01:00:10.400]Two days later she called me and
[01:00:12.367]she said that there are seven or eight women here who have been
[01:00:16.700]charged with serious crimes and they don't have an attorney.
[01:00:19.767]Can you come up with attorneys for them?
[01:00:33.200]I asked my colleagues who worked pro bono in such cases to go
[01:00:38.567]talk to these people, and they accepted representation of them.
[01:01:01.533]Then a week later she called and she said, there is no library
[01:01:05.834]in the women's prison.
[01:01:07.533]Can you ask all the colleagues and all your colleagues and the
[01:01:11.734]people that we know each to bring five books so that we can
[01:01:15.433]create a library for the women in prison?
[01:01:22.800]And in a few days, a good library was set up in prison.
[01:01:39.967]And women who had been accused of serious crimes, when they saw
[01:01:43.967]what she's doing for them, trusted her and befriended her.
[01:02:02.800]Then she started teaching them a class on women's rights and to
[01:02:08.533]talk to them about the discriminatory laws and all the
[01:02:12.567]injustices that exist in the laws against women.
[01:02:23.967]She only taught these classes for a few days when the head of
[01:02:27.133]the prison went to the prosecutor.
[01:02:36.300]And asked that this young girl be released
[01:02:42.133]because she's making.
[01:02:46.133](Laughing) (Applause)
[01:02:50.133]Because she's turning every woman in prison into a feminist,
[01:02:52.133]and we cannot control her.
[01:02:54.533](Laughing)
[01:03:00.867]This is one example of the struggle of the Iranian women.
[01:03:06.266]Are international sanctions effective in changing public
[01:03:10.834]policy in Iran?
[01:03:13.133]Do the people suffer more than the government?
[01:03:32.967]I am against economic sanctions against Iran.
[01:03:42.300]Because the government is not going to fall as a
[01:03:46.000]result of economic sanctions.
[01:03:49.533]You have tried this in the case of Iraq.
[01:03:59.533]Saddam Hussain was sanctioned for ten years,
[01:04:06.767]but he did not fall.
[01:04:12.800]But unfortunately thousands of young children died as a result
[01:04:18.567]of not having access to medication and vaccinations.
[01:04:29.166]Therefore, economic sanctions only hurt people.
[01:04:41.033]I always suggest a political sanction instead
[01:04:47.166]of economic sanction.
[01:04:56.967]And what I mean by political sanctions are sanctions that
[01:05:01.500]will weaken the government but will not hurt the people. And
[01:05:09.734]there are few examples of that.
[01:05:34.934]For example, people who have held high positions like
[01:05:39.400]ministerial positions for the last five years should not be
[01:05:44.800]let into western countries.
[01:05:46.500]And if they have property in such countries, those properties
[01:05:49.700]have to be forfeited.
[01:06:01.967]I know that the government of the United States has come up
[01:06:05.934]with a list of people who would be sanctioned,
[01:06:11.033]but this list is not long enough.
[01:06:12.200]They have to add to it.
[01:06:20.834]Another way that one can weaken a government is to place
[01:06:26.633]sanctions on satellites.
[01:06:35.633]The government of Iran has 16 television channels in different
[01:06:41.400]languages for the consumption of people outside of Iran.
[01:06:58.734]They lie on the television programs, they create hatred
[01:07:03.266]against other people.
[01:07:05.433]And it's a propaganda television in general.
[01:07:17.367]And they broadcast their programs on European
[01:07:22.433]and American satellites.
[01:07:30.834]Don't let the government of Iran use your satellites.
[01:07:36.700]What about the people of Iran?
[01:07:51.133]These were just two examples that I gave you.
[01:07:54.667]But we can come up with a long list of things that can be done
[01:07:57.700]that would hurt the government but not the people.
[01:08:01.300]After the last election, the uprising was
[01:08:05.533]quickly and violently stopped.
[01:08:07.000]Do you believe Iran can have a fair and honest election?
[01:08:11.767]Is the green movement of the young generation still strong?
[01:08:15.033]What future do they face?
[01:08:37.834]Unfortunately elections have never been free in Iran.
[01:08:46.900]Because in every election, be it for the Parliament or
[01:08:55.000]presidency, the competence of the candidate has to be approved
[01:08:57.567]and confirmed by the guardian council.
[01:09:00.166]There is a vetting process.
[01:09:09.200]And any person who has the slightest criticism of the
[01:09:12.967]government will not pass that competency test.
[01:09:21.266]The members of the guardian council are not elected by the
[01:09:26.033]people, but appointed by the supreme leader.
[01:09:36.533]And with the filter that exists, in reality free elections in
[01:09:42.567]Iran have no meeting mean -- meaning.
[01:09:56.834]And one of the demands of the people is free elections. But
[01:10:02.533]unfortunately, with the laws that exist now,
[01:10:04.500]it's not possible.
[01:10:05.066]You say when Islam is interpreted correctly, it is
[01:10:11.734]compatible with human rights and gender equality.
[01:10:15.433]How do you reconcile human
[01:10:20.633]rights and gender equality with the Koran?
[01:10:56.533]Unfortunately the 34 years experience that we have had with
[01:11:00.300]the government of Iran proves that they are not going to
[01:11:03.633]accept any other interpretation but their
[01:11:08.567]interpretation of Islam.
[01:11:16.467]And this is why.
[01:11:18.633]Although people are Muslims and they believe in their religion,
[01:11:23.166]but they disagree with this government.
[01:11:36.200]And the people of Iran who voted for an Islamic government
[01:11:42.200]years ago on the basis of a free election
[01:11:47.767]have become secular now.
[01:11:58.900]And they know that religion has to be separated from government
[01:12:03.800]so that politicians don't use religious beliefs of people.
[01:12:29.166]Therefore, my response to your question is that another
[01:12:32.600]interpretation of Islam during this government is not possible
[01:12:37.834]because they're not going to accept it.
[01:12:40.967]One last question, or request.
[01:12:44.066]Please tell more about the persecution
[01:12:52.100]of the Baha'I, in Iran.
[01:13:00.500]Baha'I-ism is a religion that came into existence
[01:13:06.000]approximately 200 years ago.
[01:13:09.734]Approximately 300,000 Baha'Is live in Iran now.
[01:13:25.266]Unfortunately the Baha'Is are deprived of their
[01:13:29.433]civil and political rights.
[01:13:48.133]Not only they cannot work for the government, they will not be
[01:13:51.433]employed by the government, but even if they want to engage in
[01:13:56.800]businesses where a license is required,
[01:14:01.600]they are not provided licenses.
[01:14:07.467]They're even deprived from going to universities.
[01:14:15.700]And from the beginning of the revolution up to now, the young
[01:14:21.734]Baha'I have not been permitted to attend University.
[01:14:27.800]And this is what I call a cultural genocide.
[01:14:45.500]But in order to send their young people to university and get
[01:14:50.166]them a university education, the Baha'Is put up a university using
[01:14:56.467]the home of one of the -- their co-patriots.
[01:15:11.867]And there were a few professors who will also Baha'Is and taught
[01:15:17.200]the young people.
[01:15:29.867]Unfortunately the government found out about the unofficial
[01:15:33.967]Baha'I University and apprehended -- closed down the
[01:15:37.767]University, apprehended and imprisoned the professors.
[01:15:50.700]At the present time a number of Baha'Is are in prison.
[01:15:59.567]Among them being seven of the Baha'I leaders in Iran.
[01:16:06.000]They have each received 20 years of imprisonment.
[01:16:16.133]The prosecutor had charged them with espionage
[01:16:22.200]for Israel and the United States.
[01:16:26.800]I was the attorney for the seven Baha'Is.
[01:16:33.300]And defended them in court.
[01:16:40.633]I read their files from the beginning 'til the end.
[01:16:48.867]There was no evidence to prove the charge that the prosecutor
[01:16:53.166]had brought against them.
[01:17:13.667]But since the courts have lost their independence and their
[01:17:18.300]decisions are based on the demands of the security
[01:17:22.934]officers, each of these people received
[01:17:28.200]20 years of imprisonment.
[01:17:31.233]And they have been in prison for approximately seven years now.
[01:17:38.633]And they live under very bad conditions.
[01:17:46.767]And as I said earlier, on top of the seven leaders,
[01:17:51.367]there are other Baha'Is who are in prison.
[01:18:15.600]Due to international pressure, prosecutors cannot announce that
[01:18:22.033]these people are in prison because they are Baha'Is,
[01:18:25.967]that's is why they come up with charges such as having taken
[01:18:30.133]measures against national security or espionage.
[01:18:43.834]As an attorney who has defended many of such cases, I expressly
[01:18:50.000]state that they are in prison due to their religion.
[01:18:55.333]Please join me in thanks Shirin Ebadi for joining us.
[01:19:03.867](Applause)

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True Islam: Human Rights, Faith, and Women

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