Not That Kind of Doctor - How to Manage Your Advisor

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How to Manage Your Advisor - Not That Kind of Doctor with Nick Husbye and Guy Trainin www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor

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[00:00:00.330]So you thought that the hardest part of grad school
[00:00:05.520]would be the research.
[00:00:07.530]But it turns out it's figuring out
[00:00:09.930]how to get your advisor to answer your emails.
[00:00:12.690]Or how to tell them that you're not revising chapter three
[00:00:17.280]for the sixth time.
[00:00:19.530]Today we're talking about
[00:00:20.940]how to manage your doctoral advisor,
[00:00:23.460]like the professional you already are without ghosting,
[00:00:27.364]without drama, and definitely without trauma dumping.
[00:00:31.140]We'll help you figure out what's reasonable, what's not,
[00:00:34.410]and what to do when relationships get complicated.
[00:00:37.980]I'm Nick Husbye, Associate Professor
[00:00:39.990]of Elementary Literacy Education K-6 here at UNL.
[00:00:43.258]And I'm Guy Trainin, Professor of Education at UNL.
[00:00:46.590]And this is "Not That Kind of Doctor."
[00:00:49.391](upbeat music)
[00:00:57.570]All right. Okay.
[00:01:00.060]So, you are like the Grand Poobah of-
[00:01:07.616]That feels uncomfortable, but sure.
[00:01:10.290]Why is that uncomfortable?
[00:01:11.400]I don't know.
[00:01:12.233]Poobah is a weird word and I'm like,
[00:01:14.460]do I need to eat more and have a,
[00:01:18.450]an even more colorful shirt. That is what I'm saying.
[00:01:21.436]No, you already have the presence, like you-
[00:01:23.820]Thank you. It's not a detraction.
[00:01:27.330]No.
[00:01:28.163]I'm wondering if I can match up to the Grand Poobah.
[00:01:30.330]You already match up to it.
[00:01:31.860]That's what I'm saying.
[00:01:32.910]All right. I'll take it.
[00:01:35.220]I believe in you. Thank you.
[00:01:36.960]I appreciate that.
[00:01:37.890]Oh, you're welcome.
[00:01:38.723]So you are the Grand Poobah of doctoral advising.
[00:01:43.020]Like, let's just be real here.
[00:01:45.030]You eat, breathe, sleep, drink, swim-
[00:01:49.710]Love.
[00:01:50.700]Chat with. Yes.
[00:01:52.170]You do all kinds of things with doctoral students.
[00:01:53.790]So I would love some of your insights,
[00:01:57.175]particularly thinking early around
[00:02:01.320]what kinds of conversations do you have with your advisees
[00:02:07.110]early in their program within like those first six months?
[00:02:09.180]Like what are the things that you are doing
[00:02:11.340]to help them manage their expectations in terms of like,
[00:02:15.660]this is what you can expect from me.
[00:02:17.190]This is what you cannot expect from me.
[00:02:19.410]Ta-da. So.
[00:02:21.014]And that, that's a lot, right?
[00:02:24.043]The first few conversations really aim at
[00:02:29.190]creating expectations for a timeline,
[00:02:31.380]because even people who have PhDs or other Ds in their,
[00:02:38.370]in their family and the people they know
[00:02:40.830]are not necessarily aware of the expectations
[00:02:44.820]and especially the institution specific paths.
[00:02:50.700]And so it's really important to talk about
[00:02:53.370]timelines early and clearly.
[00:02:57.060]And the advantage of having been around for quite a while
[00:03:00.418]and having been to over a hundred dissertation committees
[00:03:06.600]is you get a really good sense of time.
[00:03:09.930]Yes.
[00:03:10.763]And so, one of the first conversation is,
[00:03:14.100]no, you are not going to finish your degree
[00:03:17.130]in two to three years.
[00:03:18.330]That's one of the first conversations
[00:03:19.950]because people come with unrealistic expectations,
[00:03:22.470]especially if they've gotten a master's
[00:03:24.060]and it took them between a year and two years.
[00:03:25.920]They're like, oh, it's the next thing,
[00:03:28.050]but it's gonna take about the same time.
[00:03:29.670]And the answer is no, no, it's not.
[00:03:32.790]And more than that, if you do want to seek a job
[00:03:36.450]based on your accomplishment as a PhD,
[00:03:38.910]definitely if you want a job in academia,
[00:03:40.950]it's also a really bad idea.
[00:03:43.680]Because, even three years is a really bad idea because-
[00:03:46.770]Wait, have we talked about those things before?
[00:03:48.085]Yeah, I think we have.
[00:03:49.482]Oh, okay. Just checking.
[00:03:51.330]Yeah, so you really want to talk about timeline
[00:03:54.900]and what is the optimal timeline.
[00:03:57.900]You can be a little bit faster, you can be somewhat slower,
[00:04:00.510]depends also on life circumstances, timely circumstances,
[00:04:04.140]whether you're a full-time student or a part-time student.
[00:04:06.750]And so part of that conversation
[00:04:08.640]is adjusting the expectations.
[00:04:10.980]This is what it's gonna take.
[00:04:12.690]These are some ideas that you want to think about.
[00:04:15.660]So for example, for part-time students
[00:04:17.970]that still want a job in academia,
[00:04:20.130]I talk about the option of at one point or another,
[00:04:23.010]becoming a full-time student for a limited amount of time.
[00:04:25.890]So you can finish well and you can get
[00:04:28.350]all your ducks in a row
[00:04:29.340]so you have a chance to teach in higher education,
[00:04:32.040]maybe both online and offline, all of these opportunities.
[00:04:35.220]So I talk about timeline,
[00:04:36.630]I talk about what are the things that will make your,
[00:04:41.850]your file for applying for a job complete.
[00:04:46.080]So it's talking about having research, having publications,
[00:04:49.980]presenting at conferences and talking about teaching
[00:04:53.730]and saying, here are the things,
[00:04:55.200]you want to layer these things.
[00:04:56.490]You can't do all of them at once.
[00:04:58.680]So you've got to start thinking
[00:05:00.240]about this multi-year process and know,
[00:05:03.330]oh, I need at one point or another to teach.
[00:05:07.200]Not just TA, but actually if at all possible,
[00:05:10.410]teach a class.
[00:05:11.256]And in my book,
[00:05:12.938]it's really good if you can teach something in person
[00:05:15.196]and something online in one format or another.
[00:05:18.780]So it's like putting all of the pieces
[00:05:21.120]and the idea is to explain,
[00:05:22.680]here are the things that will most likely
[00:05:25.800]get you to the job you want to get.
[00:05:27.810]Now I teach in the innovative
[00:05:29.550]learning technologies unit right now.
[00:05:32.340]So I also think about, well, if you're seeking a job
[00:05:36.660]as an instructional designer, you need a portfolio.
[00:05:39.630]So how are you starting to build your portfolio
[00:05:43.260]with real products that were done for real clients
[00:05:48.060]so you can show them off.
[00:05:50.280]Especially now at the age of AI,
[00:05:51.810]how you're playing with AI.
[00:05:52.980]All of these things have to be really, really visible.
[00:05:55.110]So that's the first conversation and that's its expectation.
[00:05:58.410]And then I talk about the phases, right?
[00:06:00.930]So we have about, you know, you can think about it
[00:06:04.650]as two or three phases in doctoral education.
[00:06:07.410]There's the phase where you take classes
[00:06:09.090]and develop some pilot studies
[00:06:10.620]and do all of the things
[00:06:12.660]that is conversely probably the easiest part.
[00:06:16.440]Then you're doing the process to get candidacy
[00:06:20.430]with a comprehensive exam,
[00:06:21.810]a paper or whatever gateway there is there
[00:06:24.960]that gets approved by a committee.
[00:06:26.310]And then the dissertation phase.
[00:06:27.570]So really thinking about what phase are you in?
[00:06:30.600]And then I talk to them about
[00:06:32.070]what support I give them in each phase.
[00:06:34.350]So early on, if you're doing some pilot studies,
[00:06:38.610]this is where I support you, but you're taking your classes,
[00:06:41.520]we're talking at least twice a semester just to get going.
[00:06:45.188]But a lot less attention during the second and third phase,
[00:06:49.200]you're getting a lot of support from me.
[00:06:50.520]So in second phase it's the preparation
[00:06:52.590]to the comprehensive exam
[00:06:53.820]and everything that goes around that.
[00:06:55.274]And then during the dissertation phase,
[00:06:57.450]and this is my message to them, you become my top priority.
[00:07:00.390]So when I get an email from somebody
[00:07:02.070]who's actually doing their dissertation,
[00:07:04.440]this is the first email I read.
[00:07:05.760]Even if I have 150 emails a day, which I do, that's,
[00:07:10.650]and I tell them at that point you become a top priority.
[00:07:13.440]It doesn't mean I will give you an answer in 50 minutes
[00:07:15.720]going back to setting boundaries,
[00:07:17.610]but I will give you an answer in 48 hours
[00:07:20.220]if the text is short enough.
[00:07:21.720]Or I will give you at least something in 48 hours.
[00:07:24.150]If you're sending me 150 pages,
[00:07:26.520]it'll take me more than 48 hours
[00:07:28.110]to read that and respond to it.
[00:07:29.760]So these are the the things I set.
[00:07:32.585]And we try to set as many working procedures as possible.
[00:07:38.700]And so they know, for example,
[00:07:40.590]I have open office hours every week online or in person.
[00:07:46.350]So that's another like
[00:07:48.300]you can hop on at any time and use this.
[00:07:50.408]And I have students, for example, Ben who you know,
[00:07:54.600]is very diligent.
[00:07:55.800]Every time he has a question he jumps on,
[00:07:57.930]talks to me for five to seven minutes and hops off.
[00:08:00.990]And that's perfectly fine.
[00:08:02.970]I've got students who are a lot less,
[00:08:06.360]a lot less in contact.
[00:08:08.166]And that always worries me
[00:08:09.780]because I can't support you if you don't come to me.
[00:08:13.050]Right.
[00:08:13.883]And I'm not gonna chase you.
[00:08:15.240]You're an adult, you know where you are
[00:08:16.890]and what you need to do.
[00:08:18.150]So that's the balance of things for me.
[00:08:20.400]So those are the early things.
[00:08:22.110]Late things, as I said, is a lot of support during,
[00:08:26.820]especially during any pilot studies that they conduct
[00:08:29.640]and of course dissertation.
[00:08:31.050]And I like very short feedback loops.
[00:08:33.390]So, and I tell my students,
[00:08:35.370]I would rather see five to 10 pages
[00:08:37.470]where I can respond to you quickly
[00:08:38.820]than seeing 150 to 200 pages
[00:08:41.070]where it's gonna take me a while to sort through it.
[00:08:42.930]And if you went down the wrong path,
[00:08:44.820]now you're feeling like we did in the intro
[00:08:48.090]that chapter three has to be redone for the sixth time.
[00:08:51.420]And so I try to make sure we don't get to that point.
[00:08:54.750]Right.
[00:08:55.583]Because at some point it's like you are doing
[00:08:57.870]a lot of that managing. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:59.940]Right.
[00:09:00.773]And one of the things I've been working on this semester
[00:09:05.070]that I haven't had before is a user guide.
[00:09:10.800]Oh nice.
[00:09:11.633]For myself. Yeah.
[00:09:12.466]That I can be like,
[00:09:13.980]I have one for undergrads that I've been working on
[00:09:15.990]and I have one for graduate students
[00:09:17.250]that I've been working on in terms of,
[00:09:19.440]look, these are the rules of engagement.
[00:09:23.190]Yes.
[00:09:24.023]Because one of the things that
[00:09:25.020]I want to make sure that they understand is
[00:09:28.200]they're an important part of my working life.
[00:09:30.810]Not the most important part,
[00:09:32.580]but they're pretty darn important.
[00:09:34.380]But that also doesn't mean that I'm available to them 24/7.
[00:09:37.020]No. Absolutely not.
[00:09:38.277]So, and laying out some of those things like
[00:09:42.300]if you're sending me 150 pages to read, you need to set,
[00:09:45.510]you need to also be like,
[00:09:46.830]here's what I want you to pay attention to on these pages.
[00:09:50.220]Because I will respond to full drafts once you're,
[00:09:57.390]once you've got kind of these,
[00:09:58.320]these teen tiny mechanisms worked out.
[00:10:00.810]But I can't like, oh here's,
[00:10:02.970]this is my first draft of my dissertation.
[00:10:04.890]Okay, what am I looking at?
[00:10:06.810]What do you want me, what do you want me to do?
[00:10:10.380]'Cause at that point I need some, some focus.
[00:10:13.260]'cause really that's an independent project.
[00:10:15.540]Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
[00:10:16.740]Ultimately, and I'm acting as editor.
[00:10:20.100]And so what is that.
[00:10:20.933]Editor slash reviewer.
[00:10:22.470]Right, right.
[00:10:23.610]So that's, that's kind of how that's working.
[00:10:27.120]But I feel like that helps me, you know,
[00:10:32.700]set up some professional boundaries.
[00:10:36.660]Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
[00:10:37.740]Where ultimately at the end of the day,
[00:10:41.760]my advisees are paying money to be part of a program
[00:10:46.020]that is going to, as you said,
[00:10:48.270]hopefully result in some kind of change
[00:10:51.000]in what they are doing.
[00:10:53.910]And who they are and how they are,
[00:10:59.460]you know, progressing in their career.
[00:11:01.440]And so I try to always keep that in the front of my head
[00:11:05.460]that I can be friendly,
[00:11:08.130]but we aren't necessarily friends and that's okay.
[00:11:11.340]Yes, absolutely.
[00:11:12.780]And that goes both ways.
[00:11:14.520]So I think about it from, if you are the student,
[00:11:17.520]you want to establish clear communication with your advisor.
[00:11:22.139]And I think the second thing you want to do
[00:11:24.450]is make sure that there's regular communication
[00:11:26.700]and that is on you.
[00:11:27.570]Because your advisor might have a few or a lot,
[00:11:30.540]they have a lot of other things they're doing.
[00:11:33.180]Going back to your point about you are a priority,
[00:11:36.000]but you're not my only priority.
[00:11:38.070]So establishing regular communication,
[00:11:41.460]depending on what phase you are in.
[00:11:43.470]So if you're taking classes again, once,
[00:11:45.810]twice a semester, probably fine.
[00:11:48.030]If you need more support, maybe more.
[00:11:49.650]But at least twice a semester reach in
[00:11:52.530]and don't just send an email,
[00:11:55.200]actually schedule them in advance.
[00:11:57.060]Say let's talk one time in September
[00:11:59.850]if it's the first semester, and one time in November.
[00:12:02.700]In September we're talking about how things are going
[00:12:05.040]and whatever, you know, research decision I'm making.
[00:12:08.640]And in November maybe talk about what,
[00:12:10.860]what I'm planning for next semester.
[00:12:12.450]So make sure you're checking in enough and not as a surprise
[00:12:17.160]because if it's on people's calendar,
[00:12:18.960]if it's on your advisor's calendar, the problem is solved.
[00:12:21.960]Right.
[00:12:23.070]During the dissertation phase,
[00:12:24.390]if you need a lot of support, set a regular.
[00:12:26.640]Every two weeks we meet for 20 minutes just adjusting,
[00:12:29.961]this is how much progress I made.
[00:12:32.070]This is a question or two I have and you move on.
[00:12:34.500]It doesn't need to be an hour meeting.
[00:12:36.150]Yeah. No, But check in.
[00:12:38.340]Check in so they know.
[00:12:40.020]So they're not surprised when suddenly
[00:12:42.030]you send them a 250 page manuscript and they're like,
[00:12:46.292]I have not heard from you in two years.
[00:12:48.300]And suddenly I have a dissertation manuscript.
[00:12:50.040]What's going on? What's going on?
[00:12:51.810]Did we have a discussion about this?
[00:12:53.640]This is not why I anticipated and I really have not built.
[00:12:56.538]Because one of the things that your advisor will do
[00:12:58.800]is build time for these things.
[00:13:00.390]Well, if it's coming as a surprise,
[00:13:01.770]they don't have time built in.
[00:13:03.930]And I'll be honest, I would not find the time to read 250,
[00:13:07.770]surprise 250 page manuscript.
[00:13:10.170]So build that in.
[00:13:11.820]Truth. Truth.
[00:13:13.350]And if you are sending a 250 page manuscript in,
[00:13:20.100]just acknowledge the fact
[00:13:20.940]that they're not going to read it all, but be like,
[00:13:22.920]okay, pages 30 to 35, yes.
[00:13:25.380]This is now gelling for me, help me out.
[00:13:28.320]That would be, that's a different ask
[00:13:30.972]and being aware of that kind of work.
[00:13:35.580]So there's this notion of like
[00:13:38.280]things for students to not do.
[00:13:41.760]But there's also things that we as advisors
[00:13:45.180]should not do not, right.
[00:13:47.070]Like you hear horror stories.
[00:13:49.920]Yes. I have many.
[00:13:52.786]Of, oh gosh, what is that makes me nervous of.
[00:13:59.550]Like toxic relationships between advisees and advisors
[00:14:05.190]where they're not focusing in on
[00:14:11.460]helping you develop as a scholar or as an instructor,
[00:14:14.640]as a college higher ed professional.
[00:14:17.070]And more like, oh, every time we meet,
[00:14:20.490]all they do is they talk about their personal life.
[00:14:23.550]Yeah.
[00:14:24.383]And I'm like, free therapy
[00:14:25.800]or free labor on their research projects.
[00:14:28.680]Yes.
[00:14:29.513]And so those are things.
[00:14:30.390]Now, if you are participating in research projects
[00:14:34.200]and sometimes it's a good opportunity
[00:14:36.000]and maybe they don't have funding,
[00:14:37.770]they ask you to be part of it.
[00:14:40.050]There is a power imbalance here.
[00:14:42.210]And so you need to be aware of that.
[00:14:43.710]Now, if you negotiate and you need to negotiate,
[00:14:46.890]okay, if I'm doing this,
[00:14:48.540]the first question you want to ask is,
[00:14:50.730]will my name be included on the paper?
[00:14:53.100]Yes.
[00:14:54.030]Because then you are getting
[00:14:55.260]some return on your investment.
[00:14:58.620]But if you are not,
[00:15:01.230]then you need to have the room to say no.
[00:15:03.810]And I know it's hard to say no to your advisor,
[00:15:05.657]but if it happens more than once
[00:15:08.070]and you're feeling uncomfortable,
[00:15:09.750]it may be time to have a hard conversation
[00:15:11.820]with your graduate chair or whoever's in charge,
[00:15:14.790]even department chair
[00:15:16.230]where may be this relationship is not going well.
[00:15:20.593]And that's perfectly fine and you can change advisor.
[00:15:23.286]One of the things I always talk to my advisees,
[00:15:25.710]but also to other people's advisees
[00:15:27.062]when I was graduate chair is, it is your program,
[00:15:31.260]and you should have the right
[00:15:33.060]to think about the relationship and say,
[00:15:36.030]this is not taking me where I need to go
[00:15:37.860]and I need somebody else.
[00:15:39.240]Now, you can't do this every, every year or every semester.
[00:15:42.960]You can do that probably once, maybe twice in your program.
[00:15:46.490]But, really thinking through that relationship,
[00:15:51.061]if it starts feeling uncomfortable, then it's time to think
[00:15:55.876]and to try and have a conversation with your advisor.
[00:15:58.980]That is a very hard thing.
[00:16:01.120]ChatGPT is a great helper
[00:16:02.670]in trying to think through these conversations.
[00:16:05.047]Oh yeah, no, it's totally, totally helpful
[00:16:07.800]in terms of developing some scripts that,
[00:16:12.030]I find one of the best ways,
[00:16:16.890]if you find yourself in a space
[00:16:18.810]where they're asking for an immediate response,
[00:16:21.510]I don't see my way clear here right now.
[00:16:23.820]Let me look at everything that's on my docket right now
[00:16:28.740]and I will get back to you as soon as I possibly can.
[00:16:31.860]Yeah.
[00:16:32.693]And that seems to be, that buys you some time
[00:16:37.140]and helps make it so that you have time to go
[00:16:40.890]and think through actually how much time
[00:16:43.260]do you have for this.
[00:16:45.150]What is the functionality, et cetera, et cetera,
[00:16:48.960]so that you can navigate that.
[00:16:52.172]And remember that if you have an assistantship
[00:16:56.130]and you have classes,
[00:16:57.510]you have a lot of your time
[00:17:00.000]already earmarks for these things.
[00:17:02.730]And you don't want to get to the position where
[00:17:06.030]you're not doing your, for example,
[00:17:07.740]research assistantship or teaching well
[00:17:11.370]because you're working on somebody else's project.
[00:17:13.920]This is what you can use as the boundary and say,
[00:17:16.620]right now I'm teaching two classes,
[00:17:18.510]which happens to some of our graduate students,
[00:17:20.940]and this is taking a tremendous amount of my time,
[00:17:23.580]I simply don't have the bandwidth right now.
[00:17:25.890]I would be happy to join
[00:17:27.630]when my load is a little bit lighter.
[00:17:30.229]And being honest about this,
[00:17:32.790]because remember that when you go out into the work world,
[00:17:37.110]people might ask for your teaching evaluation.
[00:17:39.600]And if your teaching suffered
[00:17:41.400]because you worked on some project,
[00:17:43.830]that may not be useful.
[00:17:46.110]So you want to be very careful about
[00:17:48.090]how you manage this and use the facts.
[00:17:50.122]Don't say I don't feel comfortable or something like this,
[00:17:54.330]but have the conversation about,
[00:17:55.800]and you're very good at this,
[00:17:57.240]this is how much I'm investing in teaching right now.
[00:18:00.300]This is what I'm getting paid for
[00:18:02.220]and this is how much I need time for class.
[00:18:05.010]So I don't, right now I don't have time.
[00:18:08.520]And that's a very reasonable and reasoned argument to make
[00:18:12.150]that I think most advisor would respond to.
[00:18:14.100]Because then, because as advisors sometimes,
[00:18:16.950]I mean I generate at least five ideas
[00:18:18.990]for research every day.
[00:18:22.260]Every like hour.
[00:18:24.120]But- It's exhausting.
[00:18:25.860]There's not enough time in the day.
[00:18:27.853]And so I want to be very careful to say,
[00:18:30.750]yes, I have these five ideas.
[00:18:32.190]But no, we cannot act on all of them
[00:18:33.960]because I don't have enough time
[00:18:35.430]and you don't have enough time.
[00:18:36.263]What is the collective noun for doctoral students?
[00:18:38.610]'Cause I feel whatever that collective noun is,
[00:18:40.320]you have it.
[00:18:41.790]I don't know.
[00:18:44.430]I don't know.
[00:18:45.330]We'll have to come up with one.
[00:18:47.010]I don't know why, but plaque it comes to-
[00:18:48.930]Plaque it.
[00:18:49.763]But that's Ouija board thing.
[00:18:52.320]But that seems to be what you have.
[00:18:54.750]Anyway.
[00:18:55.583]And I enjoy them immensely.
[00:18:58.200]Yes.
[00:18:59.033]So you want to emotional support and on both sides, right?
[00:19:03.090]You, if you're a graduate student,
[00:19:05.460]you are not there to support your advisor.
[00:19:07.922]No.
[00:19:09.709]And if they overshare about
[00:19:11.250]what's happening in the department,
[00:19:12.570]maybe that's a time to choose to have less meetings.
[00:19:15.264]Or if they overshare about just their personal life.
[00:19:18.364]Yes. Personal life as well.
[00:19:20.880]And, but it also goes to, as graduate students,
[00:19:24.900]sometimes we find ourself
[00:19:26.310]in emotional tricky emotional places
[00:19:30.210]and you can share with your advisor
[00:19:32.790]and it's advisable to share that you are in that situation.
[00:19:35.806]But then you have to share about
[00:19:37.440]what are you doing about it.
[00:19:38.760]Most universities do have counseling available
[00:19:41.730]and the minute each crosses between just momentarily,
[00:19:44.640]I'm feeling really overwhelmed.
[00:19:46.620]Happens to all of us.
[00:19:47.730]There are also sessions for that.
[00:19:49.950]But there are, the minute it gets a little bit more,
[00:19:53.010]whether you're potentially getting a divorce,
[00:19:58.770]which has happened to a fairly large number
[00:20:00.990]of graduate students of mine.
[00:20:02.852]I hope it's not my fault.
[00:20:04.500]But yes, it's a stressful time for many people.
[00:20:08.580]But, but if you are going through something
[00:20:13.041]that is more substantial, seek professional help,
[00:20:16.500]your advisor is not your therapist and vice versa.
[00:20:20.400]And you are not their therapist.
[00:20:22.260]So keep those boundaries alive
[00:20:24.870]because once they are crossed,
[00:20:26.640]it just creates tensions that will not help you on your path
[00:20:30.600]to getting the degree completed.
[00:20:33.540]I touched a nerve there.
[00:20:34.590]Well, no.
[00:20:37.410]While I will not do this,
[00:20:38.553]I wanna get married just so I can be like,
[00:20:40.500]I'm leaving you for Guy.
[00:20:43.020]That's not what I meant at all.
[00:20:47.446]New bucket list item.
[00:20:50.100]It's a conversation.
[00:20:51.870]New bucket list item.
[00:20:54.810]Never will happen.
[00:20:55.643]I am feeling really uncomfortable right now.
[00:20:59.340]I mean...
[00:21:01.830]Why, Guy?
[00:21:03.771]Yeah. Alright,
[00:21:07.770]All right.
[00:21:08.603]So keeping in mind that like,
[00:21:13.482]you do want your advisor to invest in you as a person.
[00:21:16.860]Yes.
[00:21:17.693]And you want to do the same with your advisor,
[00:21:19.530]but acknowledging that there's some boundaries there, right.
[00:21:22.710]Particularly that you are not their friend.
[00:21:27.000]They are not your friend in the way that like,
[00:21:31.792]I think friend is one of those words
[00:21:33.300]that has no meeting anymore.
[00:21:34.500]Thank you, Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg.
[00:21:37.560]But, so with, with some of my advisees,
[00:21:43.499]one, I have some advisees who find me too structured.
[00:21:48.450]Gonna be real honest.
[00:21:49.283]I am focused in on what do you want to happen
[00:21:52.500]after you get this degree?
[00:21:54.120]And we work towards that.
[00:21:55.320]Yeah.
[00:21:56.153]And you don't care about me.
[00:21:59.007]Well I do, but I care about you in this way.
[00:22:01.530]Like I'm not a therapist.
[00:22:03.480]I have my therapist. I hope you have your therapist.
[00:22:05.243]But that is not my job, you know?
[00:22:07.849]And so with advisees,
[00:22:10.821]sometimes when they're working through that dissertation,
[00:22:13.935]dissertations are rough.
[00:22:15.630]And if I'm not seeing movement,
[00:22:18.660]we'll meet for like half an hour, an hour
[00:22:22.650]to like parallel work, 'cause I have to do it anyway.
[00:22:26.670]And the first five minutes is, how are you, what's going on?
[00:22:29.730]How's your life?
[00:22:30.563]Dah dah dah da da,
[00:22:32.130]here's what's going on in my life, da dah dah dah da.
[00:22:34.044]We grab a coffee and we work for 50 minutes and we move on.
[00:22:39.450]Yeah. Like it's delightful.
[00:22:42.810]So there's a line there.
[00:22:44.306]You should not be acting as a therapist, right?
[00:22:49.890]So if that is something that you need,
[00:22:55.410]there are resources, right?
[00:22:57.900]Like no advisor is going to be perfect in any given way
[00:23:04.500]just simply because of the level of stuff
[00:23:07.020]that anyone has to do, right?
[00:23:10.530]There's always one of you.
[00:23:13.913]But there's multiple advisees that is on anyone's plate.
[00:23:18.780]So let's talk about how to get what you need.
[00:23:22.230]Let's say that you get the majority of your stuff,
[00:23:24.240]but not everything.
[00:23:26.970]You can't get everything from your advisor
[00:23:28.470]and you shouldn't expect everything from your advisor.
[00:23:31.170]So Guy, what's a piece of advice
[00:23:33.930]that you give students for building safety nets
[00:23:37.931]around their graduate advising?
[00:23:40.560]So there are kind of two components.
[00:23:42.780]One is you have a committee
[00:23:44.940]and even beyond the committee, you have other professionals
[00:23:49.590]that are available that have you have taken classes with.
[00:23:53.010]And those are people that you can lean on
[00:23:55.782]when you need something specific.
[00:23:57.930]So for example, if you have a specific area of study
[00:24:01.680]where somebody else has expertise in
[00:24:03.990]and you need some advice about something
[00:24:06.030]that is very topically relevant,
[00:24:08.070]your advisor may be a great advisor,
[00:24:10.470]but they don't have that knowledge.
[00:24:12.480]Go and rely on other faculty members.
[00:24:16.050]Tell, have that open conversation with their advisor
[00:24:18.900]to make sure that he or she understands
[00:24:21.410]or they understand where,
[00:24:26.310]where you're going and what are you seeking.
[00:24:29.670]But it is very good.
[00:24:30.870]This is why you have a committee around you,
[00:24:32.640]especially for the critical dissertation phase.
[00:24:35.580]You are not just working with your advisor, you need more.
[00:24:39.210]You talked about sitting with you
[00:24:41.588]to kind of get people going.
[00:24:43.500]So parallel work.
[00:24:45.420]Parallel work is extremely powerful with peers.
[00:24:48.330]So developing a cohort of peers
[00:24:50.310]that are on the path with you,
[00:24:52.920]because that means that they will do,
[00:24:55.980]they will write the dissertation at about the same time.
[00:24:58.650]And parallel work,
[00:24:59.940]the most powerful thing
[00:25:01.560]at the dissertation phase that I've found
[00:25:03.720]is people that have peers that they're working with.
[00:25:06.180]And two, three times a week they sit together,
[00:25:08.490]sometimes just once.
[00:25:09.810]They sit together for a few hours and parallel, right,
[00:25:12.360]and keep each other,
[00:25:13.440]so have that accountability buddy and all of that.
[00:25:16.320]You don't have to expect that from your advisor.
[00:25:18.743]They're there to advise you, to give you some feedback.
[00:25:21.630]But for the day to day peers are fantastic
[00:25:27.281]and they can be just at your level
[00:25:30.030]and then you work in parallel
[00:25:31.560]and they can be a little bit more advanced
[00:25:33.330]so they can guide you, here's how I solve this problem.
[00:25:36.558]That's helpful as well.
[00:25:38.070]Especially when you're in the first phase
[00:25:39.865]and you need to have a vision of what's coming next.
[00:25:42.446]Yeah, so building that kind of peer group
[00:25:44.850]that's at the same developmental stages you are
[00:25:49.320]is one way to do that.
[00:25:50.640]Relying on additional faculty.
[00:25:53.460]And then if you're finding yourself feeling like ghosted,
[00:25:58.890]like your advisors just kind of disappeared.
[00:26:04.350]One, they've probably not disappeared, one,
[00:26:07.830]but faculty life is also kooky and ask for what you need.
[00:26:14.040]So zip an email and be specific.
[00:26:18.240]Don't just say, oh, I'd like to meet.
[00:26:20.130]Hey, do you have any availability?
[00:26:21.810]These dates, these times, make it actionable.
[00:26:25.860]And that will be super helpful.
[00:26:29.511]Also, so like, this is something that I have had said to me
[00:26:35.970]like, I feel like I've been ghosted.
[00:26:38.100]Well, if you are in a cohort and your cohort model,
[00:26:43.050]like part of the cohort model is
[00:26:45.120]that initial advising is built into that program
[00:26:48.900]if it's a truly a good cohort.
[00:26:50.670]So for me as an advisor,
[00:26:55.110]once I know when a cohort's being a cohort
[00:26:59.490]or not being a cohort, right?
[00:27:01.620]Like I know how to tackle that
[00:27:05.250]and can be more specific about what's not happening
[00:27:09.900]in the cohort that should be, and responding to that.
[00:27:13.800]Is that general enough?
[00:27:17.146]So if you feel like you're being ghosted, take,
[00:27:20.850]be proactive, and communicate clearly about what you need.
[00:27:24.963]And again, that specificity, people say, hey, we can meet.
[00:27:28.558]And my answer is always, great, when do you have time?
[00:27:31.620]Because people are teaching at different times
[00:27:33.329]and all of that.
[00:27:34.350]And again, I try to make graduate students a priority,
[00:27:37.659]but I have a very busy schedule.
[00:27:40.260]So if you give me two times, I can do that.
[00:27:42.987]If you ask me what times do you have available?
[00:27:45.690]I dunno. Check my calendar.
[00:27:47.190]Tuesday.
[00:27:48.023]Yeah, check my calendar.
[00:27:48.960]If you have access and you should have access, that helps.
[00:27:53.970]If you check my calendar, usually students get scared.
[00:27:56.470]So that may not be the best choice ever.
[00:28:01.260]So those are things to think about.
[00:28:03.660]How are you thinking about students being micromanaged
[00:28:05.940]if you feel like your advisor is always in your business
[00:28:09.390]at the micro level?
[00:28:11.400]Like that...
[00:28:14.160]So I am not a huge fan of micromanagement.
[00:28:20.070]I'm not a fan of micromanagement, period.
[00:28:23.280]Right.
[00:28:24.113]And it's-
[00:28:25.620]It exhausts me to just think about
[00:28:27.540]micromanaging somebody else.
[00:28:28.373]Oh my gosh, I don't have time.
[00:28:30.780]I don't have time. Yes.
[00:28:32.580]But what do you do if you are a student
[00:28:33.595]and you find yourself in that situation?
[00:28:35.610]So I mean, I think part of that conversation
[00:28:40.101]around micromanagement could be talking about,
[00:28:45.211]okay, so thanks for all of this.
[00:28:47.760]Can you help me figure out the function
[00:28:50.550]of how this is helping me meet this goal?
[00:28:53.280]Like, is all of this necessary?
[00:28:55.920]Because sometimes if you are thinking about, you know,
[00:28:59.160]you're working on a research project with your advisor
[00:29:02.550]around the implementation of a particular intervention,
[00:29:05.700]is that micromanagement
[00:29:07.140]or is that integrity to the actual project?
[00:29:10.200]So is it truly micromanagement and sorting that out?
[00:29:13.530]But if it's like, you will do this, you will do this,
[00:29:15.840]you will do this, you will do this, you will do this.
[00:29:17.940]Like if you're talking about programming
[00:29:19.915]and they've asked for no input from you,
[00:29:22.860]then that might be more micromanagement
[00:29:24.930]than you're prepared for.
[00:29:26.580]And you can respond to that with,
[00:29:30.180]okay, here's my function,
[00:29:31.710]can you help me lay out how all of this,
[00:29:34.860]my function for being in this program,
[00:29:35.945]can you help me lay out how this plays out
[00:29:38.664]in regards to where I want my end result to be?
[00:29:41.940]Versus you're telling me to do all these things
[00:29:45.450]blindly a little bit.
[00:29:47.310]How does that work, right?
[00:29:50.160]And I think the important thing about that conversation
[00:29:53.280]is to know that these conversations are never easy.
[00:29:56.250]No.
[00:29:57.083]And practice them before you have them
[00:29:59.070]because you are pushing back at that moment.
[00:30:02.543]And I know it feels like you can't, you should,
[00:30:05.610]because eventually it is your degree
[00:30:07.090]and it is your program.
[00:30:09.090]Just like working for no benefit is a problem.
[00:30:15.300]This can become a problem really, really quickly.
[00:30:18.863]And so you want to address this and address this earlier.
[00:30:23.670]So once you feel that there's a pattern,
[00:30:26.190]I would say address this early
[00:30:28.710]because the more you wait,
[00:30:30.540]the harder it is to, to change a pattern.
[00:30:33.810]Right.
[00:30:34.643]And then you end up with that pattern
[00:30:36.480]for your entire professional life, right?
[00:30:38.697]And that's awkward.
[00:30:39.930]No one likes that.
[00:30:41.850]So it's a difficult conversation.
[00:30:43.049]Be prepared to go in there with it being difficult,
[00:30:46.800]have it, get it over with.
[00:30:47.850]The only way through is through, you know,
[00:30:53.340]or don't complain about it.
[00:30:57.000]I mean, I hate to say that,
[00:30:58.200]but like, if you're not willing to put in the work
[00:31:00.240]to change those circumstances.
[00:31:03.210]Should they know not to micromanage?
[00:31:04.740]Of course.
[00:31:06.090]However, if they're not getting feedback
[00:31:07.620]that they micromanage, how are they supposed to know?
[00:31:10.590]Yes.
[00:31:11.423]And they may have again, experienced that pattern
[00:31:13.443]and think this is how you should do this.
[00:31:16.080]And so again, and I do want to add one more thing,
[00:31:21.150]and that is different people as graduate students feel
[00:31:24.600]that they need different levels of support.
[00:31:26.280]So some people need a lot more support and they ask for it.
[00:31:29.010]So I can be a lot more structured with some students
[00:31:31.522]and a lot less structured with others.
[00:31:33.720]But the goal is always to make you independent.
[00:31:36.550]And if you are completely micromanaged,
[00:31:38.425]you're never independent,
[00:31:39.720]you're never making decisions about research,
[00:31:41.670]never making decisions about teaching.
[00:31:43.350]So it is important to get to that point
[00:31:45.139]where you get to do it on your own.
[00:31:47.070]Right, because part of it is,
[00:31:48.630]where's my professional decision making being developed.
[00:31:51.900]And so when you're micromanaging, that's not great.
[00:31:55.860]And then, so if it gets to a point
[00:31:57.120]where your advisor's not responsive to any of it,
[00:32:00.300]or they're not responsive in terms of
[00:32:02.310]they're just not emailing you.
[00:32:04.170]Or, or they're not responsive to,
[00:32:06.930]you've had the difficult conversations,
[00:32:08.820]you've put in that labor and that has rendered no dividends,
[00:32:12.600]there's no ROI,
[00:32:14.070]then you might need to escalate it to your graduate chair.
[00:32:18.030]And there's some graceful ways to do that.
[00:32:22.260]There are some ways that are more graceful than others.
[00:32:27.480]When you're thinking about talking with the graduate chair,
[00:32:33.540]laying out, you know, here's what the situation is,
[00:32:37.740]here's the instances,
[00:32:38.970]here's how I've already attempted to work this through.
[00:32:43.200]I just don't think that this is a good fit for me.
[00:32:46.770]What would you advise?
[00:32:48.720]Whereas, if you go full out Karen,
[00:32:53.250]they've done this, they've done this, they've done this,
[00:32:54.780]they've done this, they've done this.
[00:32:56.130]If it's all about them,
[00:32:57.480]but you're not accounting for
[00:32:58.560]what you have done and brought, like, it takes two to tango
[00:33:03.660]and being clear about why you're feeling
[00:33:08.369]this action is necessary
[00:33:10.770]is probably the most graceful way to do this.
[00:33:14.370]And ensuring that there are,
[00:33:17.070]that you have your receipts, right?
[00:33:19.380]Like you've done what you need to do in order to
[00:33:24.990]make the case for why you need to move
[00:33:27.630]to a different advisor or change program or what have you.
[00:33:33.109]And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to,
[00:33:35.970]I mean, it depends on what the concern is.
[00:33:38.160]It doesn't mean necessarily that you have
[00:33:40.140]to switch to a different advisor.
[00:33:41.580]Sometimes just a conversation with graduate chair.
[00:33:46.317]Especially for example, if you have an advisor
[00:33:50.010]who's fairly new to the profession,
[00:33:52.620]so they may not have the accumulated wisdom
[00:33:55.230]and somebody needs to have a conversation with them,
[00:33:57.750]that might be useful as well.
[00:33:59.400]So it's not always about changing.
[00:34:01.628]Sometimes it's just about adjusting expectations
[00:34:05.370]and setting boundaries.
[00:34:06.780]And sometimes it's just about someone
[00:34:08.340]showing up at your office and going, check your spam.
[00:34:11.550]Yes. Sometimes that too.
[00:34:13.440]So it can be many things.
[00:34:15.540]'Cause this new AI and outlook has not been my friend.
[00:34:18.570]Oh, interesting.
[00:34:20.100]Oh, I'm not a fan.
[00:34:21.630]All right. Not a fan.
[00:34:23.550]So, but the key is what did you do, right?
[00:34:28.710]What have you tried?
[00:34:30.960]What are your concerns?
[00:34:33.120]And try to make it as little as possible about,
[00:34:37.914]about showing passive in this relationship.
[00:34:40.980]Right.
[00:34:41.813]So you wanna maintain the appropriate level of drama, right?
[00:34:46.473]Yes. Like this is not,
[00:34:51.360]if usually it's like,
[00:34:53.820]it's a subtle art house film, right?
[00:34:55.500]This is not "Lord of the Rings"
[00:34:58.860]where things are battling out.
[00:35:00.480]It might feel like that.
[00:35:02.580]But typically-
[00:35:04.350]Now I do want to enter that.
[00:35:06.450]It is "Lord of the Rings"
[00:35:07.620]if there's any inappropriate behavior.
[00:35:09.360]Oh yes.
[00:35:10.625]That is a no.
[00:35:12.083]At that moment we stop everything
[00:35:15.060]and you go and report whatever needs to happen.
[00:35:17.850]Those are not non-negotiable.
[00:35:19.740]We're not trying to say that.
[00:35:21.000]But if it's about not being responsive
[00:35:22.829]or being micromanaged, that's not-
[00:35:25.350]Let's back up, 'cause we're talking about-
[00:35:26.880]Yes.
[00:35:27.713]Regular, run of the mill.
[00:35:30.030]Those are anomalies, those are extreme.
[00:35:32.250]Those are not, those don't happen often.
[00:35:37.620]But if they do, then yeah, Sauron is out there.
[00:35:43.410]Rally the elves and yeah,
[00:35:48.000]then, but for the most part,
[00:35:49.920]like the quotidian daily stuff,
[00:35:54.690]it's more of a low level thing.
[00:35:57.660]And I think throughout all this, we just,
[00:36:00.900]I think it's important for you to remember that
[00:36:03.450]managing your advisor feels weird,
[00:36:06.870]but it is not about being manipulative.
[00:36:10.290]It's really not.
[00:36:11.400]It's about being strategic.
[00:36:13.620]You are investing a lot of money
[00:36:15.480]and a lot of time in your graduate program
[00:36:18.150]and your advisor is gonna invest a lot of time
[00:36:21.120]and a lot of energy in you.
[00:36:23.010]So keep in mind that you're not just a student,
[00:36:27.600]you are a colleague in training.
[00:36:30.391]And part of that training is really learning
[00:36:33.630]how to advocate for yourself
[00:36:35.430]with clarity, with professionalism,
[00:36:37.980]and with clear boundaries.
[00:36:41.280]Tell us your best or worst advisor moments in the comments
[00:36:44.460]and anonymous confessions are welcome.
[00:36:48.150]And check the show notes for practical scripts
[00:36:50.670]and boundary setting prompts that you can start using today.
[00:36:54.720]And until next time, stay grounded, stay assertive.
[00:36:58.402]And remember, you're not alone in this.
[00:37:01.380]And we're "Not That Kind of Doctor."
[00:37:04.629](gentle upbeat music)

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Not That Kind of Doctor - How to Manage Your Advisor

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