Commercial Freeze Drying

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04/02/2025 Added

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Commercial Freeze Drying by Matt Graunke, Parker Freeze Dry. 2025 High Pressure Processing and Dehydration Workshop

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[00:00:00.000]so my name is Matt Gronke I've been with Parker freeze-dry it's a division of proform fabrication
[00:00:10.320]for about five and a half coming up on six years here kind of a roundabout way to get into the
[00:00:16.980]industry but here we are and over the last three or four years as you guys have seen you know we've
[00:00:22.400]seen an exceptional amount of growth in this industry and it continues to draw attention for
[00:00:28.080]you know everything from pet food to biotech to agriculture supplements nutraceuticals all kinds
[00:00:35.280]of different things going on so it's an exciting job there is really never a dull moment when it
[00:00:41.740]comes to you know who's calling us and asking us questions and a lot of times it winds up with
[00:00:47.040]something along the lines of hey I want to do this what will happen and and our answer is I
[00:00:52.440]don't know let's try it and see and you know we got to make sure it's safe and then we'll give
[00:00:57.300]it a whirl and you know we're going to make sure it's safe and then we'll give it a whirl and you
[00:00:58.060]go from there. So today, we're going to take some time to kind of go through a high level
[00:01:05.500]discussion on what freeze drying is, kind of how it works, why it works, what we're trying
[00:01:11.540]to accomplish with it, different ways that you can prepare for it. We'll talk a little bit about
[00:01:18.220]best practices, some things that are going to be important. We're going to go through, you know,
[00:01:25.460]what happens before the process, what do you need to do to first success, what are you doing after
[00:01:29.500]the process, things you need to consider, ways that it makes sense to use it, and things that
[00:01:34.300]maybe are outside of the box a little bit. Market share, we're going to cover a lot of different
[00:01:39.320]stuff. As Grace said, there's buttons up there. I like to try to keep these things pretty informal,
[00:01:44.220]so if somebody's got a question, just push the button. I get this blinking light in front of me
[00:01:48.900]telling me that I need to stop and talk to somebody. So
[00:01:51.680]basically,
[00:01:55.340]what we're trying to do when we're freeze-drying is we're removing moisture, and we're trying to
[00:01:59.500]do it as gently as possible, and we're putting it in very interesting conditions to be exceptionally
[00:02:04.940]gentle with it. We need to control three things. We need to control the atmospheric pressure
[00:02:09.940]in the chamber. We need to control the state of the matter. We're controlling moisture. We need
[00:02:15.560]it to either be a liquid, a solid, or a vapor, and then we need to control the temperature
[00:02:20.140]that we're applying to that product, and our goal is to get to what we call the
[00:02:25.320]triple point, as you can see on the graph there. All three of those conditions in that
[00:02:30.420]exact same perfect spot will allow the moisture to exist in all three phases of matter at
[00:02:35.100]the same time, and when everything is set just right, we're going to basically take
[00:02:39.300]it from a solid and turn that directly into a vapor, and by doing so, because it's
[00:02:46.180]under vacuum, we don't need to use as much heat as we would typically use under normal
[00:02:51.600]atmospheric conditions, so it's a lot more gentle.
[00:02:54.960]We're not doing damage to the product by applying excessive heat to get there.
[00:03:00.840]Now, we're all here working on getting into the industrial space and in the commercial
[00:03:07.720]space where we're going to start thinking about how do we scale this, how do we make
[00:03:11.300]a ton of it in a hurry, what are we doing here, and the first thing that you hear from
[00:03:14.960]your operations team is we'll just make it faster, so turn up the heat.
[00:03:19.900]Well, as you can see on the graph, if we start turning up that heat, we get away from that
[00:03:24.140]triple point.
[00:03:24.600]And you still might be removing the moisture, but you're getting away from freeze drying
[00:03:29.140]at that point, and you get into vacuum drying.
[00:03:31.740]And if you keep going, then you get into hot air drying.
[00:03:35.160]The same goes for the condition of the product.
[00:03:37.740]If you're putting a product in the freeze dryer that is not in that solid matter phase,
[00:03:44.940]and then applying vacuum, and then applying heat on top of that, that's going to boil.
[00:03:50.120]It's going to tear your product apart.
[00:03:51.560]So it's very important that we have really good control of all three of
[00:03:54.240]those phases. So how do we get there?
[00:03:59.740]Typically, you're going to want to make sure you've got
[00:04:02.360]exceptionally powerful vacuum systems and
[00:04:04.760]refrigeration systems so that you can reach
[00:04:06.780]the critical temperatures that you need to get to.
[00:04:09.920]Our systems, I think we can get down to minus 50,
[00:04:13.200]minus 60, depending on how we're set up.
[00:04:15.240]Our pilot system goes down to about minus 40,
[00:04:17.640]which is usually pretty good for almost anything that's on the market.
[00:04:21.200]You start getting into some of the biotech stuff that has to get a
[00:04:23.880]little colder than that, then we got to make some adjustments to the system to get colder
[00:04:28.060]than that.
[00:04:29.060]You know, there's some limitations with the type of refrigerant you can use to get to
[00:04:32.940]some of those levels.
[00:04:34.060]So it's critical to get that.
[00:04:36.320]And the key thing that we're trying to avoid at the bottom, meltback and going liquid,
[00:04:40.220]it's going to give you a different result.
[00:04:43.220]So you want to try and avoid that at all.
[00:04:44.760]So removing most of the moisture, converting the ice directly into a gas, leaving the solids
[00:04:49.900]of the product intact.
[00:04:53.520]So some of the benefits that we're seeing, some of the reasons people are looking into
[00:04:59.900]this, longer shelf life.
[00:05:02.000]This is always open for debate because we haven't been doing this long enough and nobody's
[00:05:05.340]done the validation that it actually lasts 25 years.
[00:05:08.860]But everybody seems to think it will.
[00:05:10.420]We hear that a lot in the industry.
[00:05:13.160]A crucial part of this is your packaging and we'll talk about that a little bit later.
[00:05:17.600]At Parker Freeze Dry, we're not experts on packaging, we're experts on freeze drying.
[00:05:20.960]So we'll leave that part to them.
[00:05:23.160]But, you know, depending on what your product is, there's going to be different steps you're
[00:05:27.320]going to have to take to ensure that quality and make sure it sticks around.
[00:05:32.000]Limiting the damage to the product, like I said before, we're using lower temps.
[00:05:37.380]We're not taking it to the temperatures that you would normally have to do under normal
[00:05:41.720]atmospheric conditions.
[00:05:44.060]That's part of how we maintain the nutritional value.
[00:05:46.400]We're not doing any damage and we're able to keep a lot of the good parts in there.
[00:05:52.100]The rod designation.
[00:05:52.800]The designation continues to be possible when you're doing freeze drying because you're
[00:05:56.380]keeping that low temperature applied there.
[00:05:58.800]So if that's one of your goals is a raw type diet, you can get there doing it this way.
[00:06:05.520]Preserving the colors, the smells, and the structure that combines with the heat being
[00:06:10.760]applied.
[00:06:11.760]The hotter the heat, the more damage to the product that's happening and that's why you
[00:06:14.920]see that degradation of those categories.
[00:06:19.320]In some cases, you're setting something up to be reconstituted.
[00:06:22.440]You know, for use later, whether it's some kind of a powder or supplement or some kind
[00:06:28.800]of a biome or an enzyme or something along those lines, this is a good way to keep it
[00:06:33.520]in stasis until you need to use it later.
[00:06:36.400]And then reducing logistics costs.
[00:06:38.660]Now we are keeping the same size of product, but the weight of it has changed drastically.
[00:06:44.940]So when it comes to shipping and freight, when it comes to having to pay for a facility
[00:06:49.820]to refrigerate or a truck.
[00:06:52.080]Not with a reefer truck as opposed to just a regular box truck.
[00:06:55.720]Those are all things you can consider that will help you reduce those downstream costs
[00:07:00.000]later on.
[00:07:07.540]So on the pre-process, one of the most important pieces of the puzzle is the product formulation.
[00:07:15.240]What your goal is, are you taking the right steps to make sure you can get there?
[00:07:19.240]Is this product conducive to good results?
[00:07:21.720]So, does it contain lots of fats, is there sugars, is there any alcohols involved?
[00:07:27.900]Any other challenging ingredients that don't respond well to this process, that's where
[00:07:32.320]it comes in handy to run a couple test batches first, see what you got going on, and then
[00:07:37.680]dial it in from there.
[00:07:40.080]Product preparation, consistency is exceptionally important.
[00:07:45.760]This is an excellent example of garbage in, garbage out.
[00:07:50.440]One of our systems.
[00:07:51.360]I'm not pictured here, has 15 trays available for you.
[00:07:56.780]And uniform quantities, smaller pieces, consistent layers.
[00:08:01.320]We see it frequently when people are scaling from their pilot lab size, small trays, going
[00:08:08.140]to the larger size, that they lose their consistency when they're going into this larger space.
[00:08:14.520]And a good example is a group that we had that they were dealing with a liquid product,
[00:08:21.000]and they were experiencing issues with inconsistent results at the end.
[00:08:25.920]What it came down to was during the transport of the pans, the depth of the liquid was changing.
[00:08:34.960]And they were getting some trays that weren't finished all the way, some that were done
[00:08:38.760]too dry, some were still wet when it was over.
[00:08:43.000]Just real inconsistent results, and they come down to the fact that it was part of that
[00:08:46.000]product preparation that they didn't consider when they were going from their smaller
[00:08:50.640]residential-style units going into an 18x26 pan instead.
[00:08:56.220]Consistent layers when it comes to solid products.
[00:08:59.040]You can get a little bit of stacking, but you don't want to go too high because that
[00:09:03.360]heat has to get all the way through all that product, from radiant heat on the top and
[00:09:07.700]conductive heat on the inside.
[00:09:09.680]The thicker that product is, the longer it's going to take to get to the middle.
[00:09:13.920]High surface area, smaller pieces work better than bigger pieces, slurries work better as
[00:09:20.280]long as there's a lot of ways for that moisture to escape and there's a lot of surface area
[00:09:23.960]that's key.
[00:09:25.980]When you're loading your product, our system uses carts, other systems use trolleys, there's
[00:09:30.260]a lot of different ways to go about it.
[00:09:32.360]We'll talk about the way ours does it.
[00:09:34.320]You're loading your product into the carts, pre-freezing.
[00:09:38.100]A lot of the smaller systems that are on the market that people get their start in, they
[00:09:42.200]have a freezing step.
[00:09:44.660]This system is designed to be an excellent freeze dryer, but it is a terrible freezer.
[00:09:48.740]There's no airflow.
[00:09:49.920]It's designed to be a vacuum chamber.
[00:09:51.780]So if you wanted to do the freeze step in this thing, it would take days and it's too
[00:09:55.880]expensive to use it as a freezer.
[00:09:58.180]You want to make sure you've got a separate freezing system that can get your moisture
[00:10:02.140]into that solid before it goes into the chamber.
[00:10:06.440]When you're loading the products into the freeze dryer, they're pre-frozen.
[00:10:09.640]You want to make sure that you got everything connected.
[00:10:12.280]You know, we need to provide power to these carts.
[00:10:14.440]That's how we get the heat that provides, you know, the conductive heat to get the sublimation
[00:10:19.560]to take place.
[00:10:21.080]We need to attach our thermocouples.
[00:10:23.000]That's going to provide you the KPIs.
[00:10:25.840]What is the product temperature?
[00:10:27.420]How does it run through the whole system?
[00:10:29.480]What am I watching?
[00:10:31.060]What is the temperature of the heater itself?
[00:10:32.800]How is that related to what we've set for set points?
[00:10:35.600]So we're keeping an eye on all those things.
[00:10:38.740]Once that's all set up, you close the door, you're running, you're starting your primary
[00:10:42.120]drying, and then you're basically just monitoring it, figuring out when that next step as you
[00:10:47.800]increase your temperature.
[00:10:49.200]So the process itself, it varies as far as the time goes.
[00:10:56.820]We have some products that people are able to turn over in 14 to 16 hours.
[00:11:01.680]We have some products that are fairly typical.
[00:11:05.240]Most things in the food space, you're probably looking on a batch per day.
[00:11:09.300]If you're running a batch, that's 18 to 22 hours.
[00:11:12.760]We have some products that are exceptionally gentle or exceptionally dense that take a
[00:11:18.840]lot longer.
[00:11:19.840]I have one group that their cycle time is about 76 hours and they have to stay below
[00:11:26.320]a certain temperature, otherwise it degrades their product even under vacuum.
[00:11:30.120]So it's a low and slow approach.
[00:11:32.880]Other things, when you start looking at what's on the market now, the candies and things
[00:11:36.760]like that, they're kind of cheating.
[00:11:38.600]They're not necessarily freeze drying, they're just using the heat and the vacuum to blow
[00:11:41.780]everything up.
[00:11:43.080]You can do that in like two hours in these things and that's like a lot of Skittles,
[00:11:47.400]2,500 pounds of them.
[00:11:48.480]So, there's just a lot of different variables in play when it comes to the cycle times.
[00:11:54.260]And when we get asked, "How long does it take for your machine to process a batch?"
[00:11:57.920]It's like, "Well, tell me more about your product.
[00:12:00.480]We got to understand that first."
[00:12:02.480]So, we can do that with our systems where we've got a pilot system in place.
[00:12:07.080]We've got a form on our website to do some testing.
[00:12:10.080]If you've got a product that you need to explore and we want to quit talking about possibilities
[00:12:14.760]and start dealing with things we know instead of things we don't know, we can arrange to
[00:12:18.120]run a batch on that 15-tray system and establish some baselines.
[00:12:23.820]So, post-process, the drying cycle is complete.
[00:12:28.260]We've waited for the machine to finish the cycle.
[00:12:31.340]Once it's all done, we can begin the unloading process.
[00:12:35.220]You're basically going to stop the cycle with a defrost system so that we can start getting
[00:12:40.000]it ready for the next batch while we're unloading.
[00:12:42.880]Started the defrost cycle, we're unloading the carts.
[00:12:45.000]As you can see, the product has to be removed from the pans.
[00:12:47.760]This is an operation up in Wasilla, Alaska, that we're seeing pictures of here.
[00:12:53.360]This group does a lot of human food, and they're working on food security issues up in their
[00:12:59.880]community, working closely with the schools and a lot of the outlying communities so that
[00:13:04.780]they can get good, healthy food in smaller packages and easier to ship to remote areas
[00:13:12.260]in the off season.
[00:13:13.920]In addition, they're capitalizing on the...
[00:13:17.400]Short agriculture season up there.
[00:13:20.240]So they're eliminating a large waste problem they've got with such a short season.
[00:13:24.320]They can't eat all the food in that window.
[00:13:27.400]This group is solving that issue locally up there.
[00:13:30.840]So that's who's in these pictures anyway.
[00:13:32.980]So packaging product, what are you doing with your product when it's done?
[00:13:36.660]Are you bulk reselling?
[00:13:38.600]You're putting it into large pallet size boxes or are you dealing with retail packaging?
[00:13:45.400]And then we go back to the shelf life question.
[00:13:47.040]What kind of packaging do you need to use to make sure that you're meeting your goals
[00:13:52.960]as what you're trying to do?
[00:13:55.160]Some freeze dry companies don't even deal at a B2C level.
[00:13:58.480]They're just B2B only and they're dealing in tons of product and somebody else is piecing
[00:14:04.960]it out and breaking it down from there.
[00:14:08.100]What is needed for your specific product to make sure you can hit your goals?
[00:14:12.240]After you've got that product out of there, the machine continues to defrost, you're cleaning,
[00:14:16.680]you're tracing your equipment, and you're cycling it to the back to the start of the
[00:14:20.980]line again so that you can reload, pre-freeze.
[00:14:24.900]In a perfect world, a system like this holds six carts.
[00:14:28.680]This group purchased 18 carts.
[00:14:31.940]So while one set is running on Monday, they've got Tuesday's batch in the freezer already
[00:14:37.540]and Wednesday's batch going in the freezer at the end of that shift.
[00:14:41.060]So they're always just rotating and the next batch is always ready to go.
[00:14:46.320]You can take that down to a smaller scale on the Summit system that we have, it's 15
[00:14:50.640]tray system, invest in 45 trays.
[00:14:54.840]So you're always two batches ahead of the game, especially if you start getting into
[00:14:58.140]some of these other food products that are really dense and they take longer to freeze.
[00:15:04.520]The whole point is just these systems are designed to run 24/7 and you want to make
[00:15:09.960]sure you're putting yourself in the best position to make that happen.
[00:15:13.840]You don't want to be waiting for something to freeze.
[00:15:15.960]You could be running that machine instead.
[00:15:18.860]So we've taken all the trays and the equipment, we've put it back through the cycle.
[00:15:21.800]They've cleaned everything.
[00:15:22.800]They've reloaded product that's in the freezer, general maintenance checks.
[00:15:27.240]So this is a key thing, inspections and maintenance.
[00:15:32.440]Our group will provide you with a checklist, a schedule, things you need to be watching
[00:15:38.180]for and between that and your understanding of the KPIs that the machine is bringing you,
[00:15:45.600]you're going to have a really good understanding of what to look for.
[00:15:48.600]If you don't do maintenance on your machine, the machine is going to plan your maintenance
[00:15:52.480]for you and it's usually not at a good time.
[00:15:55.140]So it's very important to follow the schedule that we give you and make sure that you're
[00:16:00.040]allotting for that.
[00:16:01.040]When you're thinking about your business plan and you're putting it all together on how
[00:16:04.360]much product can I push through here in 12 months, did you consider that, okay, we do
[00:16:09.400]need to make sure we have two days down annually for this piece of equipment to go through
[00:16:15.240]the vacuum inspection, any kind of work on the refrigeration unit, make sure we don't
[00:16:20.920]have any leaks, make sure we're clear of debris.
[00:16:23.460]So most of it is a lot of walking around and looking at stuff.
[00:16:26.940]You get up to about a quarterly level, then you've got something that's a little bit more
[00:16:31.000]in-depth.
[00:16:31.400]Annually, you're going to be inspecting your vacuum pumps.
[00:16:34.500]You want to make sure that there's no scoring on the dry screws so that you're still getting
[00:16:40.360]good vacuum.
[00:16:41.020]When you get up to about...
[00:16:44.580]I suppose...
[00:16:44.880]Depending on usage, three to five years in, then it's recommended that you rebuild that
[00:16:50.300]vacuum pump and then start over again on that cycle.
[00:16:54.280]So maintenance is very important on these systems.
[00:16:58.320]And like I said, if you don't do it, the machine's going to tell you you need to do it, and it's
[00:17:02.800]not when you want to.
[00:17:03.620]So some of the different methods that are out there for dehydration, we're going to
[00:17:12.420]hear from some of the other groups later today as well.
[00:17:14.520]Freeze drying, like I said, we're using really low temps, and we're using vacuum to get
[00:17:20.920]sublimation to occur, and we're working to retain the structure, flavors, and most of
[00:17:25.100]the nutrients.
[00:17:25.620]Air drying, using warm air and convection to evaporate the moisture.
[00:17:29.900]Dehydration, we're removing the moisture with conductive and convective heat, and then
[00:17:34.740]extrusion using heat and pressure to shape and dry food, and it's ideal for some shapes
[00:17:39.040]and formulations.
[00:17:39.760]So those are some of the different options that are out there for you.
[00:17:42.500]Like I said, we'll hear from those guys a little later.
[00:17:44.440]Some of the industries that we're seeing, we talked a little bit earlier, so dairy is
[00:17:53.360]becoming a lot more prevalent than it was five years ago.
[00:17:56.380]They're picking up on this.
[00:17:58.220]Human consumption food.
[00:17:59.680]We've got pet food, obviously.
[00:18:02.420]Nutraceuticals is becoming a big deal.
[00:18:05.740]We're seeing an exceptional amount of interest on the food security side like that group
[00:18:10.160]in Alaska is doing, and that's worldwide.
[00:18:12.420]They're starting to see that there's an opportunity.
[00:18:14.420]Here to really eliminate some waste and set communities up in a better situation.
[00:18:21.740]Pharmaceutical side, cannabis is a fairly prominent industry with the freeze-dry side.
[00:18:29.820]It can change how much time it takes for their drying and curing to take place, kind of move
[00:18:35.940]their bottleneck, possibly eliminate some downstream costs by reducing the need for
[00:18:42.040]square footage for facilities.
[00:18:44.040]Research and development, that goes along with what I was just talking about earlier,
[00:18:50.300]"Hey, what will happen if we do this?"
[00:18:51.980]"Well, I don't know, let's try."
[00:18:53.980]We see that a lot.
[00:18:55.660]Sample testing, if we need to prove a concept at a smaller scale.
[00:18:59.620]We do see a little bit on the floral side, where people are preserving flowers instead
[00:19:04.860]of grinding them into pestles and making powders and things out of stuff.
[00:19:09.260]Emergency preparedness is a big side, and then taxidermy is something that we see a
[00:19:13.160]little bit of as well.
[00:19:14.040]And that's a pretty interesting side of things.
[00:19:18.040]We'll have more to follow on that, but it's -- that's when that comes into play, it is
[00:19:28.060]kind of funny when you think about it, because you've got to get that moisture out of there,
[00:19:31.060]so you can't go too hot, so you've got to go low and slow.
[00:19:35.060]And we just did a run for a client that was four weeks in the chamber, and you wouldn't
[00:19:43.060]be able to do that.
[00:19:44.040]You wouldn't be able to tell that it was freeze-dried visually, because it looked exactly like it
[00:19:49.040]did when it went in.
[00:19:50.040]But because it was such a long, low, slow process, it was exceptionally gentle, and
[00:19:55.040]it drew out all the moisture, and we had minimal water activity, and we had probably about
[00:20:03.040]15% yield out of it as far as overall weight goes, so it was kind of an interesting one.
[00:20:10.040]What was the animal?
[00:20:12.040]This was...
[00:20:14.040]This was going to be feeder mammals for training falconry and exotic pets and stuff.
[00:20:22.040]Yeah, apparently that's a big industry.
[00:20:26.040]Oddly enough, we started that, and then I went on vacation, and I was at a resort, and they had a bird that was trained,
[00:20:32.040]and that's what we were working on that for was people that do that.
[00:20:39.040]This bird would, like, keep the annoying birds away from the pool area.
[00:20:44.040]So there was no surprises in your margarita.
[00:20:51.040]So one of the things we talked about before, refuse into revenue.
[00:20:55.040]That's a really big thing these days.
[00:20:57.040]Everybody's trying to make the most out of everything they have.
[00:21:01.040]And in the food industry, we waste a lot of food, and we waste a lot of produce, and we waste a lot of time.
[00:21:08.040]And some companies are paying to get rid of things that there's value in
[00:21:12.040]if you just process it one more time.
[00:21:14.040]That's one more step.
[00:21:16.040]So we've got extending the shelf life of perishable goods,
[00:21:19.040]turning surplus inventory or leftover products that aren't as appealing to the general consumers.
[00:21:26.040]You're freeze-drying them, putting them into a powder form,
[00:21:30.040]and then all of a sudden you've got a whole other SKU available for yourself.
[00:21:35.040]Groups that I've talked to in the past are the groups that make onion rings,
[00:21:39.040]and they lop off the end of the onions and they throw them away.
[00:21:42.040]I mean, that's onion powder.
[00:21:44.040]And if they process it right, that's a whole other SKU,
[00:21:47.040]and instead of paying to throw them away, now they've got an added value there.
[00:21:51.040]We see that with other fruits.
[00:21:53.040]It may not be the best-looking piece of fruit,
[00:21:55.040]but you can slice it up and it looks like a pretty good snack.
[00:21:58.040]So there's always opportunities if you're just looking for ways
[00:22:01.040]to maximize your revenue and your opportunities using this technology.
[00:22:05.040]Because it preserves everything so well,
[00:22:08.040]it's a good way to create ingredients that you can sell for other things.
[00:22:13.040]So it's just some of the stats on market share,
[00:22:23.040]where this industry is and where it's going.
[00:22:26.040]As you can see, it's expanding quickly and it continues to do so.
[00:22:32.040]It seemed to blow up exceptionally around the start of COVID
[00:22:36.040]when everybody was stuck at home and we all got a new dog or a new cat.
[00:22:41.040]And then we found out after that,
[00:22:43.040]that we care more about what we're feeding them than what we're feeding our kids.
[00:22:48.040]We'll sit in a drive-through and load them up with whatever's in that stuff
[00:22:52.040]and then make sure that our animals have completely untouched, unmedicated,
[00:22:58.040]no additives and everything, and it's kind of crazy.
[00:23:02.040]So that has led to pretty exceptional growth.
[00:23:06.040]And at the same time, it's opened the eyes to other industries as well.
[00:23:10.040]Hey, what are they doing over there in this pet space?
[00:23:12.040]Why is this working?
[00:23:14.040]Why are they making so much money on it?
[00:23:16.040]And we're seeing it spread into these other industries
[00:23:19.040]and new industries like that.
[00:23:21.040]This slide will be available afterwards if you're looking for more info on that.
[00:23:26.040]But it continues to be an upward trend, and events like this
[00:23:31.040]and the amount of interest that we're seeing in things like this
[00:23:34.040]proves that that's accurate.
[00:23:37.040]We're going to continue to see this.
[00:23:39.040]I feel like we're on the front of the hockey stick.
[00:23:41.040]We're still in that early adopter phase when we're doing this.
[00:23:45.040]So you want to try and get involved in something
[00:23:48.040]before it gets to the peak and starts the downward trend.
[00:23:57.040]So calculations and considerations.
[00:24:00.040]What's going to be your return on investment
[00:24:02.040]when you start looking at scaling a project like this?
[00:24:06.040]We set up a little calculator on our website.
[00:24:08.040]There's a QR code there.
[00:24:10.040]It just needs a little bit of information.
[00:24:12.040]You need to understand a little bit
[00:24:14.040]about what your yield is about your product.
[00:24:16.040]But it's a good way to understand,
[00:24:18.040]okay, this is what I'm going to need to get to this end yield
[00:24:21.040]because all of our input is measured in wet weight
[00:24:24.040]because we can only control how much space is in that chamber.
[00:24:27.040]Depending on your output,
[00:24:29.040]that will really change drastically
[00:24:32.040]depending on what it is you're doing.
[00:24:34.040]If you're dealing with something that's 95% moisture,
[00:24:37.040]that's a pretty low yield,
[00:24:39.040]and you're going to need a lot of that product
[00:24:43.040]to get to that goal production quantity
[00:24:46.040]that you can actually sell after on.
[00:24:48.040]So it's important to take that into consideration.
[00:24:51.040]You can check out that calculator on the website.
[00:24:54.040]It's helpful.
[00:24:55.040]If you've got questions about it,
[00:24:56.040]everybody will have my info afterwards,
[00:24:58.040]and we can talk through whatever you did with it.
[00:25:03.040]Different sizes, so scaling the equipment.
[00:25:07.040]You know, most of these places
[00:25:08.040]are starting out on a lab scale
[00:25:10.040]or some kind of hobby-style unit.
[00:25:12.040]The systems that we design,
[00:25:14.040]we start off at about 100 pounds of wet.
[00:25:17.040]It's a small enough system
[00:25:18.040]that it can run on single-phase power.
[00:25:20.040]You start getting into the larger stuff,
[00:25:22.040]the Parker II on up,
[00:25:23.040]you know, you're looking at 500 pounds
[00:25:25.040]all the way up to 4,000 pounds
[00:25:27.040]of wet product per batch.
[00:25:29.040]There's ways that if you're getting into
[00:25:31.040]the exceptional scale,
[00:25:32.040]like some of our customers,
[00:25:33.040]they're running multiples of these units,
[00:25:36.040]daisy-chained together,
[00:25:37.040]feeding a continuous line later.
[00:25:39.040]Every three hours they're entering a machine
[00:25:41.040]and they're feeding that downstream later on.
[00:25:43.040]It's the key thing with this.
[00:25:44.040]It's a little unique because it's a batch system.
[00:25:47.040]So it's not just a conveyor belt
[00:25:50.040]running through there.
[00:25:51.040]So you got to keep that in mind
[00:25:53.040]when you're planning your production.
[00:25:55.040]How much do I need to make?
[00:25:56.040]How many machines is it going to take me
[00:25:58.040]to feed the rest of this downstream
[00:26:00.040]to get to that production goal per day,
[00:26:02.040]per week, per month, per quarter, whatever.
[00:26:05.040]And we can work that backwards with you
[00:26:06.040]to help you figure out where you stand on all that stuff.
[00:26:13.040]So the system itself, some key components.
[00:26:17.040]This is a couple different systems
[00:26:19.040]that we've got some varying pictures of here.
[00:26:21.040]The graphic on the bottom is just a basic explanation
[00:26:24.040]of how refrigeration works.
[00:26:27.040]The machine that you'll see just to the top of that,
[00:26:29.040]that's going to be the refrigeration system
[00:26:31.040]that provides the chill to the collector plates
[00:26:34.040]that are on the wall inside this thing.
[00:26:35.040]So we're taking all that moisture out of that product.
[00:26:38.040]It's got to go somewhere.
[00:26:40.040]And when it's under vacuum,
[00:26:41.040]it's going to go to the coldest thing in the room,
[00:26:43.040]and in this system, it's those plates.
[00:26:45.040]So if we have a 500-pound wet weight
[00:26:48.040]and we're dealing with something that has a 20% yield,
[00:26:51.040]we've got 100 pounds of dry product when it's done,
[00:26:54.040]but we also have to get rid of 400 pounds of ice
[00:26:57.040]before we can run it again.
[00:26:59.040]So that's where that defrost and that turnaround takes place.
[00:27:02.040]Our systems are set up with an automated defrost system,
[00:27:04.040]with an automated defrost profile.
[00:27:06.040]We're generating energy from the system
[00:27:08.040]to create heat to melt the ice.
[00:27:10.040]Usually takes anywhere from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours,
[00:27:13.040]depending on how much moisture you're dealing with
[00:27:15.040]and the size of the machine.
[00:27:17.040]But that's about how much time you need
[00:27:19.040]for the changeover anyway.
[00:27:21.040]So when you've got your production set up,
[00:27:23.720]and you've got your people in the right places doing all the right things it's a
[00:27:27.320]pretty seamless system once everybody gets into their roles and you start
[00:27:30.560]spinning around so we've got the collector plates inside the chamber
[00:27:35.480]we've got the carts which you see there there's varying sizes of carts or
[00:27:39.320]standard size you have one inch of space so there's 42 in there with one inch we
[00:27:44.720]have options available if you have taller products and if you want to
[00:27:48.480]freeze-dry something that's taller we just need to remember to keep in mind
[00:27:51.620]that heat still has to get all the way to the center of that product so if I'm
[00:27:57.420]putting taller products in there that profile and that recipe that I set up
[00:28:01.280]for the one inch thick stuff is probably not the same as I'm going to use for the
[00:28:05.720]two inch thick stuff what you got yes so in a perfect world if you're setting up
[00:28:13.380]a bulk system like this you've invested in a freezer that can hold the carts and
[00:28:18.500]you walk them right in that's typically the
[00:28:21.380]scenario you want to deal with and then it's the night before a day and a half
[00:28:25.780]before depending on what you're dealing with you know and I get asked a lot
[00:28:30.080]what's the temperature of I need to get to how cold of a freezer well that
[00:28:35.180]depends on your product we've got some customers that they need to get to like
[00:28:39.200]minus 60 Fahrenheit in order to do what they need to do and they have to be
[00:28:44.480]really quick to to get it in there and get that process because their
[00:28:49.880]opportunity for meltback is
[00:28:51.140]exceptionally high so that it has to be
[00:28:56.360]well not necessarily just because it's it's there's airflow going through a
[00:29:07.420]walk-in freezer and there's vents and whatnot for it to process and then
[00:29:13.640]you've got I don't know what the term is that I would call it radiant heat if I
[00:29:18.440]was talking but the aluminum cart
[00:29:20.900]gets colder in hell too cold to the touch so it does protect it a little bit
[00:29:25.700]when you're making that transition from your walk-in freezer to your chamber in
[00:29:30.720]an ideal scenario you've got your processes set up so that you're not
[00:29:35.080]crisscrossing back and forth a whole bunch of times so go ahead Seth
[00:29:50.660]rule of thumb that says that if I have you know X many freeze dryers that
[00:29:56.960]accommodate Y many trays I should have some surplus of excess trays like you
[00:30:05.420]know yes yes so typically at a minimum any system I put together I strongly
[00:30:13.940]encourage to double the capacity of the machine so if you've got a 10 cart
[00:30:18.900]machine I want you to have 20
[00:30:20.420]at a minimum okay when we start looking at some of the grand scale stuff where
[00:30:25.820]we're talking 20 of these machines working on a daisy chain system then
[00:30:31.340]you're probably looking at two and a half to three times available cart
[00:30:37.240]capacity because you're dealing with that much more volume so you want to
[00:30:41.660]make sure that you're always at least a day ahead of the game just in case
[00:30:45.300]something goes wrong you're you're not going to be down for lack of preparation
[00:30:50.180]so when you're at the big scale we talk about extra carts extra trays included
[00:30:56.300]with the carts when we're dealing with the pilot model like the summit we're
[00:31:00.020]just talking about extra pans yep so what I see a lot with the pilot system
[00:31:05.840]that we have is they've got the chamber in the back in our Parker summit system
[00:31:10.220]here and right next to it is a large commercial freezer scientific style
[00:31:16.800]commercial the quality that they can control temp it's usually like a blast
[00:31:19.940]freezer something that's quick and they make they get it so that it uses the
[00:31:24.320]same shelves in the same pans is what your product is in and it can hold at
[00:31:29.120]least 30 that's at a minimum I've seen more than that but on the small systems
[00:31:33.920]I always encourage at least double on the big ones you know just kind of
[00:31:38.420]depends on how big you are so that's the rule of thumb that I use yeah go ahead
[00:31:49.700]well I think it's just different designs like gum Lloyd here is with Cudden and
[00:32:03.620]they're out of New Zealand there's our circular system and they collect their
[00:32:07.940]ice in a different spot ours is just right next to it and there's is it
[00:32:12.080]there's a set up a little bit differently so it's just kind of six of
[00:32:15.440]one half a dozen of the other from a modular standpoint I like ours
[00:32:19.460]because it's easy to fit it in a room and you don't have no wasted space you
[00:32:23.240]know squares I just like dealing with the squares myself and yeah and I think
[00:32:32.800]for like you guys use like trolley systems like a something like that
[00:32:38.080]yeah
[00:32:49.220]yeah well Lloyd's talking about there so one of the large groups that's out there
[00:33:07.400]they they design an entire building an entire facility you're in their system
[00:33:12.900]they build the whole thing there's trolleys there's rails it's it takes a
[00:33:18.320]lot a while
[00:33:18.980]and it's expensive and it's designed for that and they do a great job doing that
[00:33:23.440]where we fit into the puzzle on these things where we fit into the market is
[00:33:27.440]as much more modular you don't have to have a brand new building design with
[00:33:31.760]all of these rails you just need square footage three-phase power and a loading
[00:33:36.040]dock and now you have a freeze-dry facility so we get we've got a lot more
[00:33:40.820]flexibility and they'll be able to turn it faster you're up and running quicker
[00:33:48.740]yeah there's a there's there's a there's a group but GEA is the name of
[00:33:58.280]the group that is kind of the go-to global leader for a system like that and
[00:34:02.660]they specialize in the trolleys the trays are bigger so there's a lot less
[00:34:07.720]it's not efficient for someone to just slide a tray around because it's just
[00:34:11.960]gigantic you know where this is ours is a little bit more module a little bit
[00:34:15.860]more easier to implement
[00:34:18.500]correct
[00:34:25.500]correct
[00:34:28.500]you know
[00:34:31.500]you will hear and you will read it is correct to see that
[00:34:34.500]radian doesn't work in that conductive doesn't work in a vacuum
[00:34:38.500]and you would be correct if you're talking about air but ours is you know
[00:34:41.500]in the context of the shelf and anything that's already run through I will see
[00:34:44.500]that it's kind of damaged tray there's going to be a lot more work to be
[00:34:48.500]different yeah
[00:34:51.500]both will accomplish it it's just how you get there yeah
[00:35:17.500]yeah well your formulations will probably stay the same because we're
[00:35:23.500]just trying to take the moisture out of whatever you put in there but how you
[00:35:27.500]get that moisture out of there if you're dealing with only radiant you don't have
[00:35:30.500]the luxury of contact you could be you're either going to have to turn up
[00:35:35.500]that heat to get it there or you're going to have to take longer with that
[00:35:40.500]heat to get there so right possibly yeah yeah that could be a little bit more
[00:35:46.500]yeah that could certainly could yeah it certainly could a lot of this comes down
[00:35:54.500]to set up no matter whose machine you're using if you don't tell the machine what
[00:35:59.760]you want it to do to get the results you want you're not going to get what you
[00:36:03.600]want so one of the areas that we work really hard with with our customers and
[00:36:08.640]our users is make sure that their operators and their formulators and
[00:36:12.120]everybody that needs to know understands the data that's being shared with them
[00:36:16.400]so that they can make the best decision and dial things in every single one of
[00:36:20.780]these systems if you've never ran a product before through it you may have
[00:36:24.000]ran it in a different system you're still probably you know anywhere from
[00:36:28.520]two to four runs to get to your sweet spot you've got to kind of work it out
[00:36:34.220]figure it out look at those KPIs what's happening in that run how long did we
[00:36:37.760]stay at this temp how'd that pressure change that's what we're checking for
[00:36:42.620]you're still getting that dry product in those first couple runs because
[00:36:46.300]you're just running it until you see that indicator that you're watching for
[00:36:50.340]but it usually takes a couple runs of kind of dialing it in to optimize it so
[00:36:56.200]that we're not spending extra time when no moisture is being released we're
[00:36:59.560]skipping that step we're increasing that heat by 10 degrees 15 degrees whatever
[00:37:03.740]to get that moisture to just keep coming out as fast as it can and that's where
[00:37:09.020]this vacuum system in the booster and everything that we're running comes into
[00:37:12.400]play because as we're releasing moisture the faster that moisture releases the
[00:37:15.400]air pressure increases
[00:37:16.200]And that knocks us out of that sublimation phase on that first graph that we shared.
[00:37:21.740]So go ahead.
[00:37:22.740]Oh, no, no, no, no.
[00:37:23.740]I didn't have any other questions.
[00:37:24.740]All right.
[00:37:25.740]No.
[00:37:26.740]No.
[00:37:27.740]Real quick, guys.
[00:37:28.740]Sorry.
[00:37:29.740]When you're going to speak, make sure you use the microphone by pushing the red button
[00:37:32.880]in front of you.
[00:37:33.980]This way, the video captures your question as well.
[00:37:38.320]Sorry.
[00:37:39.320]Thanks.
[00:37:40.320]So components of the system, like we were walking through.
[00:37:43.400]We've seen the carts.
[00:37:44.400]We've seen the chamber.
[00:37:45.400]We've seen the storage room.
[00:37:46.400]We've seen the storage and collect the ice.
[00:37:47.400]On the side there, this is our Parker II system.
[00:37:49.080]So single pump, single booster.
[00:37:53.120]Refrigeration is outdoors.
[00:37:54.120]When you're thinking about a floor plan for something like this, we want them to be close,
[00:37:57.640]100 feet from each other.
[00:37:59.520]Keep your Parker on an outside wall so that you're just going through the wall right to
[00:38:03.040]the refrigeration.
[00:38:04.040]At UNL here, for the system that we've got downstairs, theirs is on the roof.
[00:38:09.620]And we can do that.
[00:38:10.620]We just need to know if that's the case ahead of time when we design the system because
[00:38:13.920]it's going to take more piping.
[00:38:15.320]And it's going to take a little bit more talent from your on-site HVAC tech to take
[00:38:18.940]care of it.
[00:38:20.000]If it's just a straight pipe going right out the wall and it's under 100 feet, I could
[00:38:24.420]probably fix it.
[00:38:25.780]But if you're going to be dealing with something that's going around corners and you got traps
[00:38:29.500]and you got everything, you got to make sure you got a talented HVAC team to help you take
[00:38:33.160]care of it.
[00:38:34.160]Go ahead, Seth.
[00:38:35.160]Oh, okay.
[00:38:39.480]So Parker II system controls, everything's right there.
[00:38:43.880]We'll see that one downstairs.
[00:38:45.240]Okay.
[00:38:46.240]Best practices.
[00:38:47.240]So we talked a little bit about pre-process, post-process, SOGs, SOPs, a lot of people
[00:38:52.480]use SOPs, standard operating procedures.
[00:38:54.720]I'm more of a fan of standard operating guidelines because I believe in gray areas all over the
[00:38:58.840]place.
[00:39:00.780]So you want to have consistency and you get there by having procedures, GMPs, all that
[00:39:06.760]kind of stuff.
[00:39:07.920]You want to make sure you've got a walk-in freezer that can handle at least two loads
[00:39:11.440]of product so that you're always one load ahead of the game.
[00:39:15.160]You want to have extra carts so that you're always at least one load ahead of the game.
[00:39:18.860]Extra pans.
[00:39:19.820]You want to have a spare parts kit.
[00:39:21.920]Jacqueline asked me about that a little early.
[00:39:23.900]What happens if something goes wrong?
[00:39:25.280]Well, typically when we're setting up a contract, we've got a package of usual suspects and
[00:39:30.980]you want to keep that on site.
[00:39:32.000]When we're getting into this scale, if this machine isn't running, you're not making money.
[00:39:36.540]So you're going to have a backup supply of usual suspects, I call them, and if something
[00:39:43.360]goes down, you get a hold of support.
[00:39:45.080]We tell you what you've got to fix, replace, what have you.
[00:39:48.300]The warranty replaces and backfills your spare parts kit, but that's an important piece
[00:39:52.940]of the puzzle because we want to keep going.
[00:39:54.780]Automation, with a question mark.
[00:39:56.820]How big are you going?
[00:39:57.860]Do you need automation?
[00:39:58.940]Can you handle this with a team of two people?
[00:40:01.000]Are you running five machines?
[00:40:02.800]Are you running ten machines?
[00:40:03.920]So you need to kind of get some help with the loading of the pans, the loading of the
[00:40:08.240]carts, the unloading, those pieces of the puzzle.
[00:40:11.240]We've got contacts in the industry that we can introduce you to when it comes to those
[00:40:14.760]discussions.
[00:40:15.000]They specialize in that sort of thing.
[00:40:17.220]We're really, really good at building freeze dryers, but I couldn't build a robot to save
[00:40:21.420]my life.
[00:40:21.880]For these, so what we've typically seen is some kind of a conveyor system that's putting
[00:40:31.320]the product.
[00:40:31.920]For instance, if it's in a pet space, we tend to deal with a lot of little pellets of some
[00:40:37.380]kind of protein product, right?
[00:40:38.640]And they've got it automated so that the carts are getting filled, they're getting shook,
[00:40:43.480]they're getting...
[00:40:44.920]They've got the scraper to make sure it's uniform, somebody's watching it to watch for
[00:40:51.140]anything that's out of the ordinary, and then from there, it's going into the cart via a
[00:40:56.440]robot putting it into the cart.
[00:40:57.700]Some places don't go as far as robot in the cart, they've just got a visual inspection
[00:41:02.900]loading it and then into the chamber, into the freezer for that pre-prep.
[00:41:08.160]When you're coming out of the machine, same deal.
[00:41:11.300]They're rolling it out manually, they're visually inspecting it.
[00:41:14.920]And as they're pulling the trays out, because you're watching to make sure that you don't
[00:41:18.460]have a failed heater, you don't want to make sure everything that's going through there
[00:41:23.140]is complete.
[00:41:24.820]Then it's either going into a hopper or on a conveyor to get sent to whatever the next
[00:41:29.360]process is from there.
[00:41:32.540]And it goes all the way down to packaging.
[00:41:35.340]Are we bulk packaging and we're going into a giant, I forgot what they call them, but
[00:41:38.960]the big pallet sized thing of food or is it going into bags or is it going into jars or
[00:41:44.920]what are we doing with it?
[00:41:46.680]So big part of the puzzle as you continue to grow and thanks to events like this, that's
[00:41:52.420]how we get to know all these other groups that can help us with that.
[00:41:55.800]Things that we don't know, we can introduce you to someone who does.
[00:42:02.840]So scaling the operations, the facility down in the lower right there is one that you may
[00:42:09.480]have seen in some of the publications recently out in Denton, Texas, that was a really, really
[00:42:14.920]really exciting project to go through.
[00:42:17.840]The piping that you're seeing there that's on the top, that's part of that discussion
[00:42:22.120]of where you're putting your freeze dryers, that has to get connected to the refrigeration
[00:42:25.640]unit outside.
[00:42:27.000]So there's a lot of traps and there's a lot of different pieces of that puzzle that made
[00:42:31.760]that a more interesting design than what you would typically see.
[00:42:36.080]So you just want to make sure you've got the talented staff around you to take care of
[00:42:39.380]that equipment with things like that.
[00:42:42.580]Scale in the business, you know, we can basically...
[00:42:44.920]We've designed all the systems so that if you start with this pilot model on the left
[00:42:49.900]and you program it and you've got your profile and your recipe for product A, and then you're
[00:42:54.360]ready to get into the machine that's in the middle, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
[00:43:00.640]It's scaled appropriately.
[00:43:01.900]So you just basically use the same profile, the same recipe to get the same result with
[00:43:07.460]500 pounds instead of 100 pounds.
[00:43:10.400]So we've made it real easy to take those steps into the next systems and then obviously the
[00:43:14.540]one on the right.
[00:43:14.920]I think they're sitting at 15 right now is their total operating at when they're running
[00:43:23.160]full tilt.
[00:43:24.160]I think they're looking at like 60,000 pounds a day or something like that.
[00:43:29.800]This is in the pet space, the large system.
[00:43:34.280]I don't know who's doing the one in the summit trying to think.
[00:43:39.840]I think that one on the part, Jared, do you know which group that one is?
[00:43:44.920]I don't recognize the inside of that building.
[00:43:47.920]The one in the middle would be--
[00:43:50.920]Is that human food or is that--
[00:43:52.920]They are certified to do both.
[00:43:54.920]Okay, yeah, so that's a multi-use facility.
[00:43:57.920].
[00:44:02.920]Well, so you kind of have to break it down because, like I said, this is a batch.
[00:44:08.920]And in a system like this, if they're running a full tilt, every 2 1/2 hours, every 3 hours,
[00:44:14.920]they're turning over a machine, so they're running staggered.
[00:44:18.920]So in a 24-hour period, if everything is humming along, let's assume that they have 20% yield,
[00:44:26.920]2,500 pounds wet into each machine, coming out with 500 pounds dry every 3 hours.
[00:44:34.920]So in a full day, when you've got 15 of them running, or however long your shifts are,
[00:44:39.920]and that's when you start getting into that scale, then you're looking at, okay, are we running one shift
[00:44:44.920]do we have to wait for the next shift to start, do we have downtime because there's nobody here to empty it,
[00:44:50.920]or do we have somebody here that when that's done, let's go, and we're just moving right into it.
[00:44:55.920]So we've put together some tables for a few customers to kind of lay out, okay, this is the best case scenario
[00:45:02.920]and how you should schedule it based on what we know so far.
[00:45:05.920]So they get an idea, what kind of manpower do I need, what kind of labor do we need, how many shifts do we need, whatever.
[00:45:14.920]You kind of have to look at, okay, what's my batch time to put that all together.
[00:45:19.920]So when we start our discussions, we make a lot of assumptions based on what we've learned from similar things,
[00:45:25.920]but it isn't until we can actually start running with the pilot model, the test run,
[00:45:30.920]then we're dealing with things we know instead of things we think we know, and we can go from there.
[00:45:35.920]Is that something that could be optimized with robotics or automation, or does it require a physical person?
[00:45:42.920]It will require a physical person.
[00:45:44.920]And because of the conductive heat like our group and like Cudden uses, you need to plug it in.
[00:45:51.920]You need to plug in that cart, and then you have two or three temperature sensors for each cart,
[00:45:58.920]depending on how you've got it equipped, to give you feedback and to give the PLC the information it needs
[00:46:04.920]so that it can set it to your set points for your recipe.
[00:46:07.920]So there's always a manual element as far as that goes, but everything outside of that
[00:46:14.920]can be done via automation if you get the right group involved and they can solve it for you.
[00:46:20.920]So the size of the carts, I don't know, probably about, like, yay high.
[00:46:26.920]It's about a baker cart, and you've got to assume if it's full, it's 250 pounds of product in that cart.
[00:46:33.920]So it's a two-person job rolling it in and out for safety reasons.
[00:46:38.920]I've seen people muscle them in.
[00:46:40.920]I've also seen carts fall over and have 250 pounds of product go flying across the floor.
[00:46:44.920]So you've got to keep that in mind, especially if you're, as an employer,
[00:46:49.920]as somebody that's operating a shop, everybody needs to go home at the end of the night too.
[00:46:53.920]So, yeah, still a manual element, mainly because of what we're doing.
[00:46:59.920]It's just required at this point.
[00:47:06.920]That's all I've got today.
[00:47:08.920]God dang, almost right on time.
[00:47:11.920]You know, it's by design, right?
[00:47:14.920]Like I said, it's a probe.
[00:47:16.920]All right.
[00:47:17.920]So any questions from the group?
[00:47:19.920]Somebody's got one on here.
[00:47:20.920]Yeah.
[00:47:21.920]Can you move your press button?
[00:47:22.920]Yes, please.
[00:47:23.920]Yeah.
[00:47:24.920]Could you talk a little bit more about that formulation, please?
[00:47:29.920]Like, I mean, in our experience, like, we have been learning how fat and, like,
[00:47:37.920]proteins and carbs and kind of similar to what we know, we see that different types
[00:47:44.920]of carbohydrates will give you different results depending on how you have that
[00:47:49.920]ratio of that carb protein.
[00:47:51.920]Yeah.
[00:47:52.920]But you did kind of, like, highlight that the challenge, I think you called
[00:47:56.920]it a challenging ingredient.
[00:47:58.920]So, like, maybe kind of broad stroke, like, what are those challenges?
[00:48:03.920]Well, you're on track with your question because it's, like, high-fat content
[00:48:11.920]stuff.
[00:48:12.920]It just doesn't sublimate.
[00:48:14.920]And when it comes to high-sugar stuff, same scenario, and it tends to just
[00:48:19.920]explode instead.
[00:48:21.920]So --
[00:48:22.920]Is that why you can peel it off?
[00:48:23.920]That's exactly why, yeah.
[00:48:24.920]So prime example -- I'm not allowed to do it anymore because of this, but I
[00:48:30.920]took a pint of maple syrup.
[00:48:32.920]We tap trees every spring and do our own syrup and stuff.
[00:48:36.920]And I had this brilliant idea one night that I was going to freeze-dry some
[00:48:40.920]maple syrup for a different project.
[00:48:42.920]So we threw it in the machine.
[00:48:44.920]And the guys ran it for me.
[00:48:46.920]And it was the biggest mess I'd ever seen.
[00:48:49.920]And I said thank you.
[00:48:51.920]And I took it home.
[00:48:52.920]And they had to clean it.
[00:48:53.920]So it was like it had the resemblance of coral reef.
[00:49:00.920]And it just kind of went all over.
[00:49:03.920]And it was super fine.
[00:49:05.920]You grabbed it and it just went into the finest powder,
[00:49:08.920]the most purest maple sugar you'll ever have.
[00:49:12.920]But it was just an absolute disaster.
[00:49:14.920]So then I started digging into it.
[00:49:15.920]And it's like, OK, can it be done?
[00:49:18.920]Not easily.
[00:49:19.920]Some places will add additional water.
[00:49:22.920]Some places will whip it into a froth so that that surface area is increased.
[00:49:27.920]And then it's diluted to the point that you can freeze dry it.
[00:49:30.920]But it's still a slower process to get there.
[00:49:32.920]And it's really not efficient.
[00:49:33.920]You're adding water to take it out.
[00:49:35.920]Please hold down the button.
[00:49:38.920]Hold down the button so that whole time it's on mic.
[00:49:40.920]All right, what did you have?
[00:49:42.920]So the last couple of examples,
[00:49:44.920]you put up on your last slide there,
[00:49:46.920]it seems to me like if the bigger the operation,
[00:49:50.920]like the 15-unit array there, I mean,
[00:49:55.920]obviously that requires a pretty high utility cost,
[00:49:58.920]but it seems to me like it's more economical the bigger
[00:50:01.920]you go or the higher the capacity.
[00:50:04.920]Cost per pound goes down the bigger the machine.
[00:50:07.920]And so I guess the question that I have is that,
[00:50:10.920]is there a point maybe, I have to understand
[00:50:14.920]what you're saying, but I also imagine at lower capacities
[00:50:17.920]that the kinds of, the materials that you're freeze drying
[00:50:20.920]need to be higher value goods
[00:50:23.920]or they need to be,
[00:50:26.920]that's higher value goods and lower--
[00:50:29.920]Yeah, it's a value add. And if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.
[00:50:32.920]I had a group reach out to me that wanted to do something
[00:50:35.920]that they just had tons of what their product was.
[00:50:38.920]And we started putting together
[00:50:41.920]just kind of a quick little rundown.
[00:50:44.920]We wanted to theoretically do this,
[00:50:46.920]and we wanted to do this much per year.
[00:50:47.920]How many machines would it take to do this?
[00:50:49.920]And we put together the whole thing.
[00:50:51.920]And it was probably a 6% profit margin.
[00:50:56.920]So it just didn't make sense at that point.
[00:50:59.920]So that's part of that early discussion
[00:51:01.920]when you're talking about your formulation and your products
[00:51:03.920]and you use that product calculator.
[00:51:05.920]If you have an idea on what you're buying it for
[00:51:08.920]versus what you are selling it for after yield,
[00:51:14.920]put that together ahead of time to start piecing it together
[00:51:16.920]to see if it makes sense.
[00:51:18.920]So in that regard, say I have a pharmaceutical venture,
[00:51:24.920]would it make more sense for pharmaceuticals to use fewer amounts,
[00:51:29.920]a lesser amount of freeze-drying capacity for some kind of pharmaceutical product
[00:51:35.920]versus a business like this where they have a high capacity for,
[00:51:41.920]in this case it's pet food or it could be freeze-drying.
[00:51:44.920]What I find with the pharma industry, and I'm not really good with the pharma industry
[00:51:50.920]because our machines, they're using a different machine.
[00:51:55.920]They've got much more controls, much more monitoring taking place.
[00:51:59.920]We've got three thermocouples in a cart.
[00:52:02.920]Their systems, they're probably monitoring every single tray,
[00:52:06.920]and they're usually dealing with automation within the chamber
[00:52:09.920]that seals things off immediately.
[00:52:12.920]This isn't a system.
[00:52:14.920]We do really well with solids.
[00:52:16.920]We do well with slurries.
[00:52:17.920]We do things that you can just put in a pan and process,
[00:52:21.920]whereas in the pharma side, that's a lot more controls,
[00:52:24.920]and you'll see a definite difference in where they sit in the market
[00:52:28.920]and what it costs to get into those equipment
[00:52:30.920]versus stuff where modular stuff like this.
[00:52:33.920]That's kind of a jack-of-all-trades.
[00:52:35.920]Does that answer your question?
[00:52:37.920]Yeah.
[00:52:38.920]Okay. Jared?
[00:52:39.920]Matt, it might be good to go back to one of your slides
[00:52:44.920]about the refuse-to-revenue concept.
[00:52:48.920]A lot of prospects out there have been extremely successful
[00:52:52.920]where they take a product that was otherwise waste that they
[00:52:56.920]were potentially paying to dispose of and turn it into
[00:53:01.920]something of value.
[00:53:04.920]You know, if you take even as simple as a brewery,
[00:53:08.920]after the spent grains and hops are done,
[00:53:11.920]they have to pay to get rid of that,
[00:53:14.920]is coming and taking it ultimately to a farm,
[00:53:17.920]usually a hog farm.
[00:53:19.920]If you could freeze dry that, there are still significant
[00:53:22.920]proteins in those grains.
[00:53:24.920]The sugars are no longer there, but the protein is,
[00:53:27.920]and then there are potential other uses for that after the
[00:53:30.920]fact you've got the shelf-stable proteins and so forth.
[00:53:33.920]So that's one example.
[00:53:35.920]Matt and I get calls all the time on things that you would
[00:53:38.920]never imagine and to get to a product that is retailable.
[00:53:44.920]Something like Lisa and I were talking yesterday,
[00:53:48.920]something that I have that we know has value,
[00:53:51.920]how do we tap into that value?
[00:53:53.920]As opposed to having it be a liability, now it's an asset.
[00:53:56.920]So something to think about as you're looking at your
[00:53:58.920]production and looking at areas that you could basically
[00:54:02.920]increase your revenues.
[00:54:04.920]If there's enough of it and there's enough margin in it,
[00:54:07.920]the value-add is there.
[00:54:09.920]It's kind of a no-brainer at that point if you can get your
[00:54:12.920]boss to cut the check.
[00:54:14.920]Any other questions?
[00:54:19.920]Cool.
[00:54:22.920]I'll be around all day.
[00:54:24.920]I'll be downstairs later on by the Parker II system.
[00:54:27.920]We can take a look at the machine,
[00:54:29.920]talk a little bit about the components.
[00:54:31.920]We'll have plenty of time for questions,
[00:54:33.920]and then obviously after that we'll be getting together again.
[00:54:36.920]All my contact info is available.
[00:54:39.920]Please reach out at any time.
[00:54:41.920]Thanks, guys.
[00:54:43.920]Thank you.

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Commercial Freeze Drying

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