HPP Product Development and Shelf-Life

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04/02/2025 Added

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HPP Product Development and Shelf-Life by Dr. Joyce Longfield, Good Foods Group LLC. 2025 High Pressure Processing and Dehydration Workshop

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[00:00:00.000]Okay, perfect. Yes. And Daniela's presentation was fabulous and the perfect lead-in to who Good Foods are or is and the products we make and what I do with the team.
[00:00:17.160]And as Mary Grace had mentioned, my background, I was kind of like the Daniela at Hyperbaric once upon a time, you know, maybe 10-ish years ago.
[00:00:28.500]So it's been a nice evolution and it's great to see the Hyperbaric team grow to where they are today and definitely leading the charge in terms of HPP research and product application.
[00:00:41.940]So that was the perfect segue into this.
[00:00:44.420]So we'll just kind of give you a background as to who Good Foods is, the products we make, why we love HPP, and then kind of get into the meat and potatoes of like how I develop products and how we use HPP for shelf life extension.
[00:00:58.260]And I'll even talk about some of the ways we don't use it, but that, you know, other people may use it and some of the things that we've investigated.
[00:01:05.760]And, you know, I know we did questions at the end, but because there's a lot of, you know, background in the development portion and then the shelf life extension portion, it might be more helpful for people to ask questions during that.
[00:01:22.780]But, you know, we could also wait to the end too. I just don't want anybody to lose their train of thought.
[00:01:27.800]So really quickly, if you're not familiar with Good Foods, we have been around since 2008. And Kurt, the owner of the company, he came from a chicken sausage. You know, he owned this company, Penn Valley Farms, that was a chicken sausage company before. And he got introduced to HPP technology kind of at the end of that company when he was selling it to Purdue.
[00:01:52.300]And so when he started Good Foods, it was really HPP at the forefront.
[00:01:57.780]That this is going to be an HPP company that makes food.
[00:02:01.380]And that has kind of always been how the products that we've developed from day one have always gone through HPP.
[00:02:07.740]And now we make over 100 different SKUs and everything goes through HPP.
[00:02:13.140]And we do a lot of private label, even though we don't refer to ourselves as a private label company.
[00:02:18.820]It's really strategic partnerships with the companies that we work with.
[00:02:23.080]And then we have our branded side of the business.
[00:02:25.560]And really, you know,
[00:02:27.660]Kurt's philosophy was just wanting to have these, you know,
[00:02:32.120]incredibly fresh tasting foods available to everyone across the country.
[00:02:38.320]And it's really HPP that allows that to happen.
[00:02:40.840]If you don't want to have preservatives in it, you want to be able to use fresh ingredients.
[00:02:45.200]As Daniela mentioned, there's other ways that you can use HPP technology.
[00:02:49.780]But for Good Foods, we really wanted to demonstrate not using preservatives and having a lot of fresh ingredients forward.
[00:02:57.540]So, our main product is our avocado-based products.
[00:03:02.980]We have two facilities.
[00:03:04.420]We have one in Wisconsin, and then we have another one in Mishicon in Mexico, kind of in the heart of the avocado grove.
[00:03:13.080]So, they are literally the avocado groves surround the entire building.
[00:03:17.920]We used to transport avocados up to Wisconsin before we opened up this facility in 2017.
[00:03:24.800]And, you know, you can just imagine.
[00:03:27.420]How important that is, you know, when you're making this product to not have to, you know, have all that product come up to Wisconsin.
[00:03:35.060]You know, all the waste that you do with the skins and the pits.
[00:03:38.200]And so, now everything is composted right outside of the facility.
[00:03:41.840]We also have an incredible employee program down there where we provide one meal and two snacks a day.
[00:03:50.460]We have an education system that we help support families who have children and they need to be able to come to work.
[00:03:57.300]We provide them with the attire for working in the facility, so like the boots and their clothes.
[00:04:06.060]So, we've really had a very positive impact on the community and we definitely have no shortage of applications for people wanting to work for the company.
[00:04:16.780]If anyone is familiar with, you know, Mexico labor in the food industry, it's challenging, especially if you're a female where one day you might be picking
[00:04:27.180]tomatoes and the next day you might be picking raspberries and that's really hard when you have kids, you know, who need a routine and need a schedule and so we've really helped facilitate that routine for families, and then we get to make all this incredible product that we get to share, you know, with all the consumers in the US and Canada, and in Mexico, we have entered Costco Mexico as well.
[00:04:50.420]In 2018, we launched our plant baseline.
[00:04:57.060]And while we're currently kind of reshuffling this and some of these products are going away and then some new ones are coming out because this original line was like nuts were the base and then with allergen awareness growing, we're transitioning into a nut free plant baseline is still very produce forward, you know, our first ingredients are always cauliflower and like red bell pepper and that kind of goodness, cucumbers,
[00:05:26.940]but we're going away from cashews and almonds and focusing on pepitas, so we can have a more allergen friendly product line.
[00:05:36.400]We do have dairy based products, our dairy based products do incredibly well and we do everything from, I think, eight ounces is our smallest container for dairy based but we do right up to like 24 and 32 ounce tubs for club products.
[00:05:53.740]And again, like the benefit of using HPP.
[00:05:56.740]For these types of products is being able to have, you know, the fresh ingredients so fresh dill, the cucumber, you know, use IQF in the spinach but, you know, just all the other like herbs and flavors the garlic the onion that kind of thing.
[00:06:14.640]Now, so we don't have our branded line of salad dressings anymore but I just really think that this slide is very pretty, and we do a ton of private label.
[00:06:26.680]salad dressing so if you're shopping in Trader Joe's and you see all those wonderful refrigerated salad dressings we make all of those, and we do a lot for Aldi we do for Kroger.
[00:06:38.180]So essentially all the same reasons that we love using the fresh ingredients and not having to have the preservatives, this is where HPP is a real benefit to salad dressings.
[00:06:51.820]And chicken salad we've gone through some.
[00:06:56.500]Evolutions of chicken salad we've had it under the Good Foods brand before a couple years ago we came out with this one, the Penn Valley.
[00:07:03.980]Just to kind of separate out, you know, this product from our Good Foods product.
[00:07:09.940]And, and, you know, same thing, the, the HPP technology really allows us to use fresh ingredients in this be preservative free.
[00:07:19.100]When I talk about the product development or kind of talk about like the nuances of developing this type of product versus let's say a plant.
[00:07:26.480]But if you ever see our Penn Valley in Costco, and I think Target carries the single serves, this is, this is a good foods product.
[00:07:38.040]So why we love HPP, we love it for a lot of the same reasons that Danielle mentioned, you know, in, in the US, I think most people, or most companies look to HPP for the food safety for the shelf life extension, and then probably, you know,
[00:07:56.460]being able to use clean ingredients, that's kind of the hierarchy. Whereas, you know, if you look over into European markets, they definitely kind of put the fresh ingredients and taste first before and probably the clean label, and then look at it more for food safety and shelf life.
[00:08:12.960]Are we still good? I just had like a flicker of my power. Everybody?
[00:08:18.100]We're good. I didn't even notice.
[00:08:20.380]Okay, good. Yeah, I've had a couple and I and I know like Daniela went down a couple times.
[00:08:26.440]I noticed that on my end. So if that happens to me, please just give me a heads up.
[00:08:30.580]Yeah. Hey, Joyce, Anthony here. I had a quick question. I know you covered some of those
[00:08:34.940]style dressings that you guys are currently still making. As far as shelf life, what are
[00:08:40.740]you guys able to achieve on?
[00:08:41.980]Yeah, we definitely get a good shelf life. And I'll actually get into that in a little
[00:08:48.500]bit. And if you want to just hang tight, because I'll kind of explain, you know, why
[00:08:53.860]we get longer shelf life for some and less.
[00:08:56.400]I'll be patient.
[00:08:58.720]Okay, so this is getting into the mean potatoes of things now. So as a formulator, I like
[00:09:09.800]to start on paper. You know, it's amazing. I'm not a chef, and I think chefs are incredible.
[00:09:15.620]But just making something because it tastes amazing and has all these wonderful ingredients,
[00:09:20.320]but then you can't sell it isn't really helpful. So I like to start on paper, you know, and
[00:09:25.560]I just kind of gave this.
[00:09:26.380]example that if you know you're going to sell an eight ounce container on the on the shelf
[00:09:30.460]for $4.99, you know, backing into that, what does your formulation cost have to be? And
[00:09:35.820]so of course, your company is going to take into account your manufacturing costs, your
[00:09:40.080]packaging costs, all of that kind of stuff. But just from like my perspective as the ingredient
[00:09:45.380]cost, you know, and depending on what it is that we're making, we have different levels.
[00:09:50.940]But I would say on average, everything is less than $2 per pound for an ingredient cost.
[00:09:56.360]Some, it's a little bit more restrictive. Some have to stay like under $1.30. Some have
[00:10:00.780]to stay under $1, you know, so that you'll kind of decide internally what that is going
[00:10:06.440]to be. And that is for me, I think step one is starting there because I don't want to
[00:10:13.020]formulate something that it's not going to be able to meet this SRP. And it's not going
[00:10:18.940]to be profitable for us. So I like to start with the ingredient formulation. And we use
[00:10:25.780]it.
[00:10:25.940]We use a program called Flavor Studio. And that helps us do all the computer side of
[00:10:31.340]it. And I'm sure there's a variety of different programs out there. But this is the one that
[00:10:36.200]we find is very useful for us. And then from there, I would go into what do you want that
[00:10:42.560]NFP to look like? What do you want that ingredient statement to look like? And then what are
[00:10:46.440]you thinking in terms of like the texture, the consistency, the mouthfeel? And what are
[00:10:50.660]you thinking for the shelf life? Is 30 days acceptable? Or does it have to be 60, 90,
[00:10:55.500]100?
[00:10:55.840]And 20 days, right? What do you kind of want? So, you know, that's sort of my order of process
[00:11:00.920]of getting something out on paper. And then you make it. And so then in reality, how does
[00:11:07.960]this taste? What is the actual appearance and texture? And then based off of how you're
[00:11:12.800]going to write this product into your food safety plan, you know, as Daniela mentioned,
[00:11:16.760]are you using HBP as a lethality treatment, or a post lethality treatment, or just shelf
[00:11:21.880]life extension, right? So depending on what that looks like.
[00:11:25.500]And for us at Good Foods, we use the technology always as a lethality treatment.
[00:11:30.720]So there is a challenge study component for all of the products that we make.
[00:11:35.040]And that's not the case for everybody, but that's just our situation.
[00:11:38.760]So kind of for example, like, you know, here is sort of where when I would get to the NFP, you know, depending on what container are we selling it into?
[00:11:51.620]Is it going to be a two ounce container? Is it going to be a four ounce container? Or is it going to be an eight ounce container?
[00:11:56.080]Now, what kind of claim do we want to make? So protein is super popular right now.
[00:12:00.940]And one of the things that if you want to be able to make a protein statement, it has to be unrounded, right?
[00:12:08.140]So a lot of times with an NFP, it rounds up or rounds down.
[00:12:12.600]But this has to be naturally over five grams in order to say source of protein.
[00:12:19.120]It has to be naturally over 10 grams.
[00:12:21.360]In order to say good source of protein.
[00:12:23.240]And I think excellent source is maybe 20, but we don't really have any products like that.
[00:12:28.560]So we're kind of in this world to be their source of protein or good source of protein.
[00:12:32.700]And same thing, like, you know, we'll evaluate this entire NFP from the calories to the fat,
[00:12:40.560]you know, to the sodium, to the carbs, to the added sugars, you know, all of these things.
[00:12:45.180]Are they kind of ticking the boxes that are acceptable for us as a manufacturer, right?
[00:12:51.100]You know, we have criteria and guardrails that need to be met.
[00:12:55.740]So, you know, we're not against added sugars, but we definitely evaluate what is the added
[00:13:02.300]sugar because we understand that the consumer is going to be evaluating what is that added
[00:13:06.460]sugar.
[00:13:06.780]So again, like if the price doesn't make sense and if the NFP doesn't make sense,
[00:13:11.560]then why are we making this, right?
[00:13:13.380]So it's very thoughtful, very intentional from the beginning as to the products that
[00:13:18.980]we make.
[00:13:19.420]And this is...
[00:13:20.840]This is a great example from the ingredient perspective.
[00:13:23.520]And we made these juices for Trader Joe's back in 2013.
[00:13:29.580]And the buyer was very specific in terms of like what were the order of ingredients that
[00:13:36.440]they wanted to see.
[00:13:37.420]They saw so many green juices that kale and spinach were later in the ingredient statement
[00:13:43.320]and they really wanted them to the beginning.
[00:13:45.120]And so part of the reason why kale and spinach are later in the ingredient deck isn't...
[00:13:50.580]just because they're expensive ingredients, but they're very hearty, robust, green-flavored
[00:13:56.900]ingredients.
[00:13:57.660]And so how do you still make something that tastes good that has those two ingredients
[00:14:03.480]at the top?
[00:14:04.300]Also then meeting that price point and fast forward, it's 2026 and that product is still
[00:14:11.940]on the market.
[00:14:12.560]It's still been around for 13 years.
[00:14:14.680]So kind of getting these things right from the beginning clearly can give you the product
[00:14:20.320]longevity that, you know, you as a company or your retail partner that you're looking
[00:14:25.200]for is looking for.
[00:14:26.960]And if I'm talking really fast and anybody has any questions while I'm going through
[00:14:32.520]this, please feel free to jump in.
[00:14:34.540]If there's no questions, then I'll kind of move on to the chemistry.
[00:14:42.020]So again, kind of understanding things like what's going on in the product in order to
[00:14:50.060]for HPP compatible.
[00:14:51.520]So like these first components are more for, you know, in a perfect world, what do you
[00:14:57.240]want to meet all these requirements?
[00:14:59.380]And then it sort of shifts over to the HPP side of it.
[00:15:03.800]So, you know, now that I want all these things, is this actually going to be possible for
[00:15:10.080]going through HPP?
[00:15:11.460]So something like pH, you know, we know that acid and pressure are very compatible and
[00:15:18.240]synergistic together.
[00:15:19.800]Even though, you know, in the regulatory world, we talk about this number of 4.6 because of
[00:15:26.720]the concerns around controlling for the growth of Clostridium botulinum, you know, to the
[00:15:32.200]HPP machine and to the product itself, that's just kind of a meetup.
[00:15:36.760]You know, really, if you had to pick a number in our experience, in my experience, I would
[00:15:42.660]say like five is sort of this teetering point that, you know, when you go less than five
[00:15:49.540]you start to go more acidic, you get better synergistic results in terms of microbial
[00:15:55.020]reduction with pressure.
[00:15:57.320]When you go above five, you know, you have less acid.
[00:16:00.420]And so you don't necessarily get that synergistic benefit as much, right?
[00:16:06.300]But, you know, for ourselves, we try and stay like, you know, definitely nothing in the
[00:16:12.340]sixes.
[00:16:12.840]I would say like the 5.5 and less is for certain products.
[00:16:19.280]When you do start to get to neutral pHs, and I've seen, you know, some green juices back
[00:16:25.640]in the day that wanted to use HPP, but have this neutral pH, that not only presents microbial
[00:16:32.660]reduction challenges, but it's also going to present sensory shelf life extension challenges.
[00:16:39.280]And so I get into that in a little bit as well.
[00:16:42.580]But, you know, if you can remember back to your biology days, your proteins and enzymes
[00:16:47.000]love a good neutral pH.
[00:16:49.020]And so if they're in a place where they can continue to be active and be functional, you
[00:16:56.080]know, eventually over time, that enzymatic activity wears out.
[00:17:00.000]And so that's going to cause sensory changes to your product.
[00:17:03.740]So you're not going to have a very long shelf life from a microbial perspective, but also
[00:17:09.800]from an enzymatic or sensory perspective.
[00:17:12.620]So water activity, again, as Danielle mentioned,
[00:17:18.760]she gave some nice examples of different water activities.
[00:17:21.900]For us, for formulation of our products, we typically like to stay above 0.97.
[00:17:27.800]Some of the stuff we make can be around 0.95.
[00:17:32.500]And then for that, that's when you start to take into consideration like, OK, well,
[00:17:37.660]we should make this one a little bit more acidic.
[00:17:39.720]It would be better if it's going to have a little bit less water.
[00:17:43.160]And as Danielle mentioned, dry cured meats, we don't do anything less
[00:17:48.500]than 0.95, but in that world of those low water products,
[00:17:53.580]it's not that you can't achieve your microbial reduction
[00:17:57.480]that you're looking for.
[00:17:58.500]It might not be immediately at the day of HPP.
[00:18:03.020]It might take some time for those microorganisms to die off post-HPP
[00:18:08.480]because the environment that they're sitting in is very inhospitable
[00:18:13.320]to recovery and growth.
[00:18:15.760]And so if you think about manufacturing,
[00:18:18.240]manufacturers that do test and hold, it's kind of that same thing.
[00:18:21.820]You're going to do a challenge study which demonstrates that it takes 24 hours
[00:18:27.400]in order to get a five log reduction or two log reduction, whatever it might be.
[00:18:31.820]And so therefore, you're going to have it written into your food safety plan
[00:18:35.140]that the product has to be held 24 hours before it can be released out into retail.
[00:18:47.980]And temperature. I would say you probably experience that majority of HPP manufacturers
[00:18:56.660]or companies that make a product that's going to go to an HPP third party facility,
[00:19:02.740]they're typically under refrigerated conditions. And I mean, it's understandable
[00:19:07.940]because obviously refrigeration helps to reduce bacterial growth.
[00:19:12.200]So having lower temperatures from the beginning all throughout the manufacturing is definitely
[00:19:17.720]much better than if you're operating, let's say, at ambient conditions or using ingredients that
[00:19:23.840]are at ambient and are going to raise the temperature of that product and then go through
[00:19:28.960]HPP and come out, you know, not necessarily like at refrigerated temperatures. And because if you
[00:19:36.640]have something that's warmer, but then you need it to get cold really fast, like that's just not
[00:19:42.200]a great process because it's going to be expensive unless you have a blast chiller. And it's not
[00:19:47.460]a guarantee that you're going to get that bacterial growth down uniformly. So if you
[00:19:53.640]could just start cold all the way through would definitely be better. There are some cases like
[00:20:01.360]from a regulatory perspective, even though in the juice HACCP, it does require you to have
[00:20:06.660]a lethality intervention step like HPP or pasteurization. They don't require you to
[00:20:12.780]manufacture under refrigerated temperatures. And that's mainly
[00:20:17.200]because inherently juice is typically so acidic that
[00:20:22.060]in a warm environment, if the bacteria were
[00:20:26.500]trying to proliferate and take up the environment, the acidic would basically
[00:20:32.220]be very suicidal to them. And so you can kind of have that
[00:20:37.220]benefit sometimes where, let's say you are making the juice in one
[00:20:42.220]facility and then you're taking it to a third party HPP facility.
[00:20:46.940]That sometimes sitting in that acid could actually be beneficial
[00:20:50.680]by the time it gets to the HPP because it will have injured those
[00:20:54.680]cells and then make your HPP treatment more efficacious.
[00:20:58.680]However, though, it's a little bit risky to think of it that way
[00:21:02.680]because you can have acid-tolerant bacteria like certain E. coli
[00:21:07.680]strains and certain yeast strains. So majority of the time you will
[00:21:12.680]probably find that most people are operating under refrigerated
[00:21:16.680]conditions and then going to the facility under refrigerated
[00:21:20.680]conditions. And this is also a benefit, as I mentioned before, if
[00:21:25.680]you have more of that neutral pH and then you also have ambient
[00:21:30.680]temperatures, it's just going to accelerate more of that enzymatic
[00:21:34.680]activity. And so it's just going to cause more sensory changes. And
[00:21:39.680]any of those sensory changes, HPV is not going to undo them after
[00:21:44.680]they've been done.
[00:21:46.420]And same thing with like lactic acid producing bacteria, that if it
[00:21:52.420]starts growing on the way to your HPV facility and starts producing
[00:21:56.420]lactic acid, that can't be undone, right? So in general, keeping
[00:22:01.420]refrigerated temperatures is just more ideal overall. And something to
[00:22:07.420]keep in mind, and again, like I mentioned before, something like the
[00:22:12.420]green juices. So chlorophyll just happens to be one of those
[00:22:16.160]kind of answers Anthony's question about salad dressing
[00:22:20.780]formulations. If you take something like a green goddess,
[00:22:24.400]which we make something like that for Trader Joe's, which has
[00:22:28.140]all these these green ingredients like parsley and
[00:22:31.700]chives, and I think it has some avocado in it and stuff, all of
[00:22:36.140]that green stuff is definitely going to break down a lot faster
[00:22:40.380]from a sensory perspective than let's say if you do something
[00:22:44.280]that is maybe more dairy
[00:22:45.900]based or like even if it was something like an Asian dressing
[00:22:49.600]and has carrots and stuff like that. So, you know, that kind of
[00:22:53.440]goes into the whole mindset when we're thinking about, you know,
[00:22:57.020]the shelf life of these salad dressings. Do we want them to be
[00:23:01.320]all the same? And if we do, what kind of considerations do we
[00:23:04.780]have to take for something like that has a plethora of green
[00:23:09.720]ingredients versus something that doesn't have a bunch of
[00:23:12.520]green ingredients in it? And, you know, Danielle gave the
[00:23:15.640]example of baby food. Well, you know, there's options to do
[00:23:21.080]enzymatic treatments to some of those ingredients so that you
[00:23:23.880]don't have that sensory breakdown, right? That's not
[00:23:28.080]something that we do at our facility. But those options are
[00:23:31.820]out there for people to do upstream treatments to some of
[00:23:35.020]these ingredients to help get you longer sensory shelf lives.
[00:23:39.100]Any questions on these areas or this section?
[00:23:45.380]Hi, Joyce. It's Seth Levine from Mars Pet Care. I left this in
[00:23:54.040]the middle of your discussion here on the impact of the food
[00:23:56.720]chemistry. In fact, I left a question in the chat regarding
[00:24:00.920]use of naturally occurring or synthetic preservatives on high
[00:24:10.640]micro load and still weakly acidic food materials.
[00:24:15.120]I didn't think for a company such as yours, at least I'm not
[00:24:18.920]getting that vibe that you would be using synthetic
[00:24:22.580]preservatives, maybe natural. But are there some that you can
[00:24:26.360]suggest for use in these kinds of products?
[00:24:29.840]That's my next section.
[00:24:32.220]Oh, okay. Yeah, go ahead. All right. Cool. Thank you.
[00:24:34.900]That's a perfect question. Yeah. Okay.
[00:24:36.760]All right. So just kind of wrapping up some of the other
[00:24:40.920]things that impact the shelf life and how we formulate
[00:24:44.860]so the macros, you know, going back to that NFP, and obviously
[00:24:49.860]going back to the cost to formulate things. So, you know,
[00:24:54.320]fats, fats are great. Certain fats can be more expensive than
[00:24:57.820]others. And we're clearly in this whole space that seed oils
[00:25:00.880]are bad. So that's forcing people to look look at a lot
[00:25:03.780]more expensive oils, like olive oil and avocado oil and stuff.
[00:25:08.100]But in general, oil, the different type of fat doesn't
[00:25:14.600]have the same type of impact from an HPP perspective as say,
[00:25:18.420]the other two macros, like the carbohydrates and the proteins.
[00:25:22.600]It's more the quantity, the amount of fat that that kind of
[00:25:27.740]impacts the HPP results. And in particular, if you start to get
[00:25:33.040]into combinations of like high fat and high protein, like we
[00:25:36.640]were showing the example with the chicken salad. So those
[00:25:39.920]those high levels of fat and protein can tend to have like
[00:25:44.340]active qualities. I don't know, Danielle might have a better way
[00:25:48.720]to describe that. But in particular to like listeria,
[00:25:52.260]because it's a gram positive bacteria, and it's already more
[00:25:55.820]robust than the gram negative bacterias in order for it to be
[00:26:00.060]knocked down by HPP. And so this combination of a lot of fat or
[00:26:05.260]fat and protein together can kind of protect that bacteria and
[00:26:09.000]make it more challenging to get the log reduction. And so back to
[00:26:14.080]Seth's point, like we do not use natural preservatives today. But
[00:26:19.440]that is a place where you can get a lot of synergy if you are
[00:26:23.200]finding that, hey, I don't want to change this formula because it
[00:26:26.300]is perfect the way that it is, and it checks all these other
[00:26:29.140]boxes. And my consumer is fine if I have a clean preservative in
[00:26:33.860]it. So I'm willing to have that clean preservative in combination
[00:26:36.940]with HPP to get me the shelf life that I'm looking for. And
[00:26:41.080]even something like salad dressings, because even though there's
[00:26:43.820]typically a lot of water, and a lot of acid in a salad dressing,
[00:26:48.380]there's still a lot of fat. And then depending on what some of
[00:26:52.200]these other fresh inclusions are in fresh ingredients, like if
[00:26:55.640]your goal is to have a five log reduction, it might be
[00:26:59.380]challenging with just HPP alone to get that five log reduction
[00:27:02.940]of listeria. So, you know, like these things definitely have to
[00:27:07.160]kind of be considered when you're going into the
[00:27:09.080]formulation side of it. As I mentioned, for the other two
[00:27:13.560]macros, the carbohydrates and the proteins, this is where it
[00:27:17.160]can definitely get tricky when you think of a company like
[00:27:20.120]ourselves, when we make so many different products, and you
[00:27:23.740]know, we have all these incredible ingredients at our
[00:27:25.960]fingertips. So proteins are relatively a little bit more
[00:27:29.980]simpler than carbohydrates, it's kind of either raw or
[00:27:32.720]denatured. So we already buy cooked chicken. So we don't
[00:27:35.780]really need to worry about that. But if you think of like nuts
[00:27:39.180]and seeds, if you if you buy like a
[00:27:43.300]roasted nut butter is going to give you a different result than
[00:27:47.060]an unroasted nut butter, if you just use raw cashews or raw
[00:27:51.940]pumpkin seeds, you're going to get a different result because
[00:27:54.900]those proteins are going to change under HPP. And they're
[00:27:58.240]essentially going to give you like a more thickening result,
[00:28:00.840]which can be a great benefit, you know, it could allow you to
[00:28:04.980]not have to use certain gums or certain starches or, or maybe
[00:28:08.520]even reduce your formula costs, because now you can put more
[00:28:11.280]water in it, right. So, you know, if you're going to buy
[00:28:13.040]that type of protein selection is definitely important when
[00:28:16.200]you're thinking about the product that you're going to
[00:28:18.060]make. And then the world of carbohydrates is, I mean,
[00:28:22.080]there's just so much, right. And it's not just the fact that
[00:28:24.940]it's the sugar, the starch or the fiber type of carbohydrate,
[00:28:28.420]but it is actually like the source of the carbohydrate
[00:28:31.840]itself. So, you know, something like oats, if anyone's ever had
[00:28:35.820]the overnight oats from mush that go in there, like, they're
[00:28:38.820]very gummy, you know, and HPP does that, whereas other
[00:28:42.780]technologies are not going to create that result. And so if it
[00:28:46.780]was, if it was something from wheat, if it was something from
[00:28:50.400]rice, and if you think about all the different ways that these
[00:28:53.360]starches can be milled, you're just going to get a different
[00:28:56.800]result with everything. So, you know, I, as a formulator, I
[00:29:01.400]think that that's lots of fun, because you can have so many
[00:29:04.520]different options. And especially when you're playing
[00:29:07.120]with that NFP, and what do I want these claims to say? And
[00:29:12.520]what do I want to say on my label? You know, you definitely
[00:29:16.060]get a lot more, I think, creative opportunities than you
[00:29:20.740]do with other technologies, because you're not going to see
[00:29:23.800]the same result that you will with things that are not
[00:29:27.700]experiencing 87,000 pounds of pressure. So, you know, you
[00:29:31.360]definitely get a lot of innovation that other companies
[00:29:34.000]cannot achieve with HPP. So I kind of like this is sort of how
[00:29:41.140]product formulation works in my head is that I kind of think of it as like a Venn diagram,
[00:29:46.230]right? And so first you're kind of putting together those macros, the cost, the nutrition,
[00:29:52.250]you know, so like what proteins am I picking, what fat source, what carbohydrates, all these
[00:29:56.970]kinds of things. And then thinking about that, how is that now going to fit into my desired shelf
[00:30:03.930]life or my desired challenge study? And so where does the role of water activity and pH play with
[00:30:09.770]that? And the reason why I think the Venn diagram represents it so well, it's because if you move
[00:30:14.830]one thing, it's just going to change your end product, right? And because it's HBP and because
[00:30:21.430]things happen under 87,000 pressure, that doesn't happen with other technologies. It really does
[00:30:27.490]move the needle just when you change that one source of carbohydrate and the quantity, the
[00:30:33.370]amount, or you put the two combinations together, the two carbohydrates together, you'll just get
[00:30:38.970]such a different result. So, you know, I think HPP really allows food companies to kind of stay
[00:30:47.350]innovative because you can just get all these different results with different combinations
[00:30:53.410]that other non-HPP companies are not going to have those same results.
[00:30:58.270]So the shelf life extension, we've kind of talked a lot about this, like in the product formulation,
[00:31:08.170]Daniela mentioned a lot of this too. So that synergy between ACID and HPP,
[00:31:13.970]we obviously, most people want a long shelf life, greater than 30 days. So ACID is our friend and
[00:31:23.130]having something under a pH of five is going to give you a better microbial reduction.
[00:31:27.790]Same thing with water activity, that greater microbial reduction and potentially on the day
[00:31:34.230]of HPP, so you don't have to hold it.
[00:31:37.370]You know, that's where you want to have something over 0.97.
[00:31:41.030]So I talked a little bit about these two bullets here that, you know, if it is lower than 0.95,
[00:31:47.370]you know, you just have to be prepared that your desired log reduction might not come
[00:31:52.390]immediately on the day of HPP.
[00:31:54.070]And I talked about this combination of fat and protein, you know, so how it can limit
[00:32:03.870]that shelf life in particular.
[00:32:06.570]If it's going to limit your challenge study.
[00:32:08.730]So one thing I don't think I mentioned yet, which if you're not aware, from an FDA perspective,
[00:32:14.810]if you are writing HPP into your food safety plan, that it is a lethality step or a post
[00:32:22.210]lethality step, and you're going to have a challenge study to support that, your shelf
[00:32:27.650]life is really then based on that challenge study.
[00:32:30.990]No matter if it tastes good beyond that, or the microbial spoilage is good beyond that,
[00:32:36.410]if you've only done a challenge study to 60 days, you're not supposed to be going beyond
[00:32:43.250]that for your shelf life that you put on the product.
[00:32:48.630]So if you've done further internal testing after you've done a shelf life, and you say,
[00:32:53.870]"Hey, well, this is actually good to 90 days.
[00:32:56.330]I want it to have 90 days," unfortunately, you're going to have to do a new challenge
[00:33:00.310]study to demonstrate that you can get that extra 30 days, because from the FDA perspective,
[00:33:06.250]they really don't care that your product tastes good or that, from a spoilage organism perspective,
[00:33:11.590]that it's okay.
[00:33:13.070]If you're writing that you're using HPP as a lethality treatment in some form, then your
[00:33:19.070]challenge study has to match whatever you're putting on the shelf life of that product,
[00:33:24.910]which is kind of why a lot of companies will tend to write HPP as just shelf life extension
[00:33:32.190]and not as a lethality treatment, so that they don't have to do the validation.
[00:33:36.090]But even though they know inherently that HPP is addressing the listeria that they're
[00:33:41.730]concerned with.
[00:33:44.330]And so it's just kind of a way to sort of get around the regulations by writing that
[00:33:49.310]you're controlling for these pathogens in other ways, like with your GMPs or SOPs or
[00:33:55.950]even the pH of your product being, let's say, under 4.4.
[00:34:01.570]But for us, we use it as a lethality, and I talk a little bit about that.
[00:34:05.930]And then the last bullet, I already mentioned that the fresh ingredients can also be a limiting
[00:34:13.890]factor in your sensory shelf life.
[00:34:16.510]And so just considering how much fresh do I want in there versus maybe IQF or something
[00:34:22.930]that had some kind of enzymatic treatment to reduce browning or reduce spoilage or sorry,
[00:34:29.350]reduce sensory spoilage.
[00:34:32.770]So the HPP treatment.
[00:34:35.770]You know, Halo, that industry standard is either a two minute hold time or three minute
[00:34:40.810]hold time at 87,000 pounds of pressure.
[00:34:45.350]We do have a couple of products that we will just do for a four minute, but really after
[00:34:49.710]you kind of get to that three minute, that efficacy of HPP starts to sort of plateau.
[00:34:56.730]And so if you really have an inherently call it dirty product going into HPP with high
[00:35:05.610]loads, you'd probably better to have two back to back three minute hold times as opposed
[00:35:12.150]to one long six minute hold time.
[00:35:14.350]You know, the decompression during HPP is so lethal that, you know, going through decompression
[00:35:20.670]and then going right back up to pressure is very beneficial compared to just extending
[00:35:26.570]it six minutes.
[00:35:27.470]So really for us, like we have a few products that we go to four minutes just to get the
[00:35:33.910]extra lactic acid.
[00:35:35.450]We get the bacteria down in those products, but it's not because of challenge studies
[00:35:41.450]that we go to four minutes.
[00:35:42.530]It's just more for the spoilage microorganisms in the background.
[00:35:45.750]Okay, so Seth was asking about the relationship between preservatives and HBP.
[00:35:54.230]Absolutely, definitely benefits there.
[00:35:57.570]And there's two types of preservatives.
[00:36:00.170]There's the bacteriostatic.
[00:36:01.590]So these are like your growth inhibitors.
[00:36:03.590]So they're not necessarily.
[00:36:05.290]Going to kill bacteria.
[00:36:06.750]But they're going to prevent them from.
[00:36:09.330]Like growing out from replicating.
[00:36:11.870]Right.
[00:36:12.270]So some of these examples of.
[00:36:13.830]The ones that people don't like to see on the label.
[00:36:16.450]You know sodium benzoate.
[00:36:17.990]Potassium sorbate.
[00:36:19.190]And then some of the more friendly ones.
[00:36:21.870]You see a lot of cultured ingredients.
[00:36:24.870]Cultured vinegars.
[00:36:25.790]Cultured dextrose.
[00:36:26.810]Now you're seeing some plant extracts.
[00:36:29.530]And you might see them on the label.
[00:36:32.230]As something like rowanberry extract.
[00:36:34.290]But they can also.
[00:36:35.130]Be labeled as natural flavor.
[00:36:36.930]So depending on your audience.
[00:36:38.330]And what they're accepting.
[00:36:39.330]If they have no problem with natural flavors.
[00:36:43.190]Then use that as your statement.
[00:36:45.470]Same thing.
[00:36:46.630]Liquid smoke extracts.
[00:36:47.910]Can also be labeled as natural flavor.
[00:36:50.310]Oftentimes these liquid smoke extracts.
[00:36:53.390]Don't have any smoke flavor.
[00:36:55.290]And so.
[00:36:56.470]It doesn't really seem like.
[00:36:58.490]Your customer would probably think.
[00:37:00.710]It's weird to see liquid smoke extract.
[00:37:03.070]On the label.
[00:37:03.730]If it was like a plant-based.
[00:37:04.970]But if it was a meat product.
[00:37:07.070]Maybe not.
[00:37:08.010]Maybe they would think it's a good thing.
[00:37:09.310]To have it say liquid smoke extract.
[00:37:11.170]Maybe they think it adds to the flavor.
[00:37:12.890]So again.
[00:37:13.390]That's why it's really important.
[00:37:15.270]On the upstream side of it.
[00:37:16.790]To kind of make all these decisions.
[00:37:18.550]As to what you want on the label.
[00:37:21.070]Before you kind of get into making something.
[00:37:23.390]On the bench.
[00:37:24.230]To see if it just tastes good.
[00:37:26.090]And meets all the other requirements.
[00:37:28.170]So the other preservative.
[00:37:31.250]Would be the bacterial sidles.
[00:37:32.670]So these are the things.
[00:37:33.710]Similar to HPV.
[00:37:34.710]They're going to be lethal.
[00:37:36.350]To the bacteria.
[00:37:37.250]They're probably going to lyse the cell.
[00:37:39.190]In some kind of way.
[00:37:40.590]Or maybe have some kind of damage.
[00:37:43.050]To the DNA.
[00:37:43.790]Like there's just different ways.
[00:37:45.310]That they operate.
[00:37:46.010]I'm sure people are very familiar.
[00:37:48.370]With seeing sodium nitrate.
[00:37:49.930]Probably also seeing lactic acid.
[00:37:51.970]And thing.
[00:37:53.730]You know you might not necessarily.
[00:37:55.290]Be familiar with.
[00:37:56.170]And that's because it can be used.
[00:37:57.430]As a processing aid.
[00:37:58.570]Which is lauric arginine.
[00:38:00.190]And so it lyse's the cell.
[00:38:02.510]And I personally have seen.
[00:38:04.610]Really positive results.
[00:38:06.550]On this ingredient.
[00:38:07.670]In combination with HPP.
[00:38:09.570]So you know kind of in summary.
[00:38:13.110]I think most people tend to go.
[00:38:15.590]To the growth inhibitors.
[00:38:16.870]If it's a product that is meant to be.
[00:38:19.350]Opened and closed and open and closed.
[00:38:21.790]And going back in.
[00:38:22.810]So that way if any of the consumers.
[00:38:25.090]Environmental contamination contaminates it.
[00:38:27.930]Those inhibitors would.
[00:38:29.790]You know prevent any growth.
[00:38:31.270]And it would last longer in their fridge.
[00:38:32.810]That's not the case.
[00:38:34.730]And it's more of a single use purpose.
[00:38:36.410]Then the bacterial sidle relationship with HPP.
[00:38:40.210]Is far more effective.
[00:38:41.810]Like very little survivors.
[00:38:44.390]Come out of HPP.
[00:38:46.210]When you use a bacterial sidle preservative.
[00:38:48.530]So does that help answer your question Seth?
[00:38:51.090]Yes it does.
[00:38:55.190]Thank you very much Joyce.
[00:38:56.470]So for us.
[00:39:03.230]You know as I mentioned.
[00:39:04.270]A couple of times.
[00:39:05.090]Good foods.
[00:39:06.570]We use HPP as a lethality treatment.
[00:39:09.650]It is an in package kill step for us.
[00:39:12.110]We do that because.
[00:39:14.210]You know.
[00:39:14.670]We use a lot of fresh ingredients in our plant.
[00:39:17.610]And you know.
[00:39:18.610]We know that we have.
[00:39:20.010]Microorganisms growing in our drains.
[00:39:23.970]And if one of those ever.
[00:39:25.410]Ended up getting onto a food contact surface.
[00:39:28.210]And we just happen to.
[00:39:29.990]You know have an inspector come in that day.
[00:39:32.790]And they're doing a swab.
[00:39:33.990]And we get any type of environmental positives.
[00:39:36.070]With a five log reduction.
[00:39:38.210]In package kill step.
[00:39:39.390]We don't have to recall the product.
[00:39:40.910]So we've never had a recall at our facility.
[00:39:43.230]Even when you know.
[00:39:45.630]They were doing recalls for.
[00:39:47.850]E.coli and stuff.
[00:39:49.070]I don't think any of the HPP juice companies.
[00:39:52.090]At that time recalled anything.
[00:39:54.170]Because juice does force you.
[00:39:56.590]To use HPP.
[00:39:58.070]As a five log reduction.
[00:39:59.590]Because it has its own HACCP plan.
[00:40:01.450]But in the world of ready to eat.
[00:40:03.710]Food products.
[00:40:04.650]It's not as specific.
[00:40:07.070]As like juice and seafood.
[00:40:08.490]Which have their own HACCP plans.
[00:40:10.290]And so this is kind of where.
[00:40:11.770]You as the manufacturer get to decide.
[00:40:13.910]How do I want to integrate HPP.
[00:40:17.150]Into my food safety plan.
[00:40:18.490]Do I want it just as shelf life extension.
[00:40:20.830]Do I want it as a lethality treatment.
[00:40:23.210]Do I want it as a post lethality treatment.
[00:40:25.050]How do I want to write it into my food safety plan.
[00:40:27.930]And I guess the other way.
[00:40:30.250]That we didn't really talk about.
[00:40:31.530]But Danielle did mention.
[00:40:33.430]Some people use HPP.
[00:40:36.450]Just as an ingredient treatment.
[00:40:38.070]That's then going to go on.
[00:40:39.750]And be made into something else.
[00:40:41.430]Like freeze dried pet food.
[00:40:43.330]So it could be a step.
[00:40:46.590]To clean up an ingredient.
[00:40:47.930]Before it goes on to be put into something else.
[00:40:51.030]And that's all of my presentation.
[00:40:55.390]So I think we have lots of time.
[00:40:58.450]For any questions that might come up.
[00:41:00.390]Yeah absolutely.
[00:41:01.750]Thank you so much Joy.
[00:41:03.350]So there's two questions.
[00:41:05.710]That I see on the chat right now.
[00:41:09.310]First is by Sue Smith.
[00:41:11.210]Do you and or perhaps the hyperbaric team.
[00:41:13.950]Have any informational studies.
[00:41:15.910]On HPP soy milk.
[00:41:18.110]I do believe there's a lot out there.
[00:41:21.330]Probably Daniela could answer.
[00:41:23.610]That question a bit better.
[00:41:26.310]I think it has been.
[00:41:27.770]Fairly well researched.
[00:41:29.850]I know you know we.
[00:41:31.730]We do use some.
[00:41:33.270]Tofu products in what we make.
[00:41:35.350]And you get a lot of fun results.
[00:41:38.150]Depending on.
[00:41:39.250]What the product is.
[00:41:42.470]And how you.
[00:41:44.770]That even.
[00:41:45.870]Because it's a protein.
[00:41:47.350]How you manufacture it.
[00:41:50.630]Like the equipment you use.
[00:41:52.410]If you get too much air in there.
[00:41:54.470]Huge problem.
[00:41:55.830]So I didn't really even talk about.
[00:41:58.570]The manufacturing side of it.
[00:42:00.130]Because obviously everybody is going to use.
[00:42:02.030]Different manufacturers.
[00:42:03.190]But depending on what manufacturing equipment you use.
[00:42:07.010]Will also impact.
[00:42:09.150]How you've changed the structure.
[00:42:12.410]Have you emulsified it.
[00:42:14.030]All of that kind of stuff.
[00:42:15.750]And then that will impact.
[00:42:18.110]Your HPP results.
[00:42:19.950]More on the texture side of it.
[00:42:21.970]But it could also cause filling problems.
[00:42:24.870]Because if you did incorporate.
[00:42:26.130]Too much air into it.
[00:42:27.410]So yeah.
[00:42:29.570]I think if Danielle has any comments.
[00:42:31.750]On soy milk.
[00:42:33.110]But it is a pretty.
[00:42:34.970]I think it's definitely been investigated.
[00:42:37.070]And there's publications out there.
[00:42:38.510]Yeah of course.
[00:42:40.350]And also I can share with you directly.
[00:42:42.490]Some research papers on soy milk.
[00:42:44.670]We know that.
[00:42:45.690]Well it is a low acid beverage for sure.
[00:42:48.190]So spores risk will be still a concern.
[00:42:50.810]Which need to be controlled.
[00:42:52.310]But you can increase the shelf life.
[00:42:54.630]I really rapidly checked.
[00:42:57.230]Between 50 and 70.
[00:42:58.750]They refrigerate it.
[00:43:00.910]Clean label.
[00:43:03.030]And processed at 87,000 PSI.
[00:43:05.630]For three minutes.
[00:43:06.390]Which is what some customers do.
[00:43:09.250]Or used to do.
[00:43:09.950]Danielle.
[00:43:12.310]Wouldn't you say.
[00:43:13.310]I know in the world of nut milks.
[00:43:16.090]A lot of the shelf stable.
[00:43:18.810]Nut milks that are in tetra packs.
[00:43:21.090]Actually start with.
[00:43:22.790]Almost like a nut butter.
[00:43:25.030]And it's already like a pureed.
[00:43:27.350]Nut ingredient.
[00:43:29.030]Versus.
[00:43:31.110]Some of the more.
[00:43:32.950]Traditional juice companies.
[00:43:35.090]Like to take the raw nut.
[00:43:36.970]And they press it.
[00:43:38.250]And you get a very different result.
[00:43:40.470]In terms of HPP.
[00:43:42.190]Depending on that starting off material.
[00:43:43.970]And I would imagine it would be the same thing.
[00:43:46.490]With the soy.
[00:43:47.330]Because of the proteins themselves.
[00:43:49.670]Like depending on what your soy product.
[00:43:52.930]Soy ingredient starting off material.
[00:43:54.970]Is going to have a different result.
[00:43:56.950]On your HPP soy milk.
[00:43:59.030]Yeah.
[00:44:00.270]Well I will use like a.
[00:44:02.870]For example you know milk.
[00:44:04.030]They used to do HPP.
[00:44:05.850]For like this nut based beverage.
[00:44:07.750]And they were able to preserve all this.
[00:44:09.930]Natural sensory attributes.
[00:44:12.530]After HPP.
[00:44:13.930]Usually I don't know exactly.
[00:44:16.410]What the process was.
[00:44:17.210]But I know that.
[00:44:17.970]After doing some trials with customers.
[00:44:20.710]What they do is they.
[00:44:21.910]As you mentioned they do the process of the nut.
[00:44:24.250]And then they after.
[00:44:26.150]It has been like hydrated after some time.
[00:44:28.550]And then they separate it.
[00:44:30.890]With some like floods I think.
[00:44:32.790]The solids from the liquids.
[00:44:34.750]And that is how they do it.
[00:44:37.050]Like without using heat.
[00:44:39.070]Or like pretty rough.
[00:44:41.330]Mechanical treatments.
[00:44:42.570]Which can damage the product.
[00:44:44.750]So yeah I know that's something.
[00:44:46.850]That is done in the industry.
[00:44:48.330]And also Malk used to use HPP.
[00:44:50.530]For a while.
[00:44:51.530]And they're not base melts.
[00:44:52.890]But yeah because of Seabot.
[00:44:54.890]I don't know exactly how they exactly did it.
[00:44:58.170]But I know that customers do Seabot validations.
[00:45:00.850]To address that risk.
[00:45:02.710]And I think that's a great example.
[00:45:05.550]Of how the actual process.
[00:45:09.350]Of making the nut milk.
[00:45:10.670]Will also impact your results.
[00:45:12.370]Because if you have something like an almond.
[00:45:15.190]A raw almond that's got the skin on it.
[00:45:17.290]Unless you have some kind of.
[00:45:20.610]Equipment that is going to completely.
[00:45:24.010]Break down that skin.
[00:45:25.590]You're going to have probably.
[00:45:27.610]Undesired skin pieces.
[00:45:29.810]In your nut milk.
[00:45:31.770]Unless you put it in a bag.
[00:45:32.630]You're going to put it through a pressing step.
[00:45:34.190]From a texture perspective.
[00:45:36.530]However.
[00:45:38.530]If you do buy a piece of equipment.
[00:45:41.110]That can break down that.
[00:45:44.190]To the right particle size.
[00:45:45.570]That you're looking for.
[00:45:46.670]What does that do to the nut?
[00:45:49.730]Does it create so much heat.
[00:45:52.630]That it's starting to change something.
[00:45:54.910]In the nut.
[00:45:55.710]From a sensory perspective.
[00:45:57.270]It's really kind of up to that.
[00:46:01.850]To the manufacturer.
[00:46:02.550]As to what process do they like better.
[00:46:05.190]What makes sense for them.
[00:46:07.790]From cost perspective.
[00:46:09.850]In terms of buying this equipment.
[00:46:11.810]Whereas another nut.
[00:46:14.230]Like a cashew.
[00:46:15.390]Because it doesn't have that skin.
[00:46:17.110]Can you use 100% of it?
[00:46:19.970]Does it require a soaking step.
[00:46:22.450]Upstream.
[00:46:23.130]In order to get it soft enough.
[00:46:24.770]In order to be able to use 100%.
[00:46:27.110]There's just all these different ways.
[00:46:29.130]To kind of think about.
[00:46:30.430]Tackling the manufacturer.
[00:46:32.470]Inside of your product.
[00:46:34.030]That's going to be going through HPP.
[00:46:35.750]Great question.
[00:46:39.050]So I'm going to call on my colleague.
[00:46:41.050]From UNL.
[00:46:41.850]April Johnson.
[00:46:42.710]She's one of our young product developers.
[00:46:45.330]In the food processing center.
[00:46:46.930]To ask the question.
[00:46:48.950]So April why don't you turn on your camera.
[00:46:50.590]So everybody can see you.
[00:46:51.650]And go ahead and ask your question.
[00:46:53.590]Come on April.
[00:46:59.170]Sorry my Wi-Fi.
[00:47:02.390]Is a little bit slow today.
[00:47:03.610]Okay sorry go ahead.
[00:47:04.830]But yeah so you mentioned.
[00:47:07.490]That there was like two separate.
[00:47:09.030]Three minute like HPP cycles.
[00:47:11.190]As was like more effective.
[00:47:12.970]Than like a six minute HPP cycle.
[00:47:15.510]But how does that like affect.
[00:47:18.170]Like the how does multiple.
[00:47:20.190]HPP runs affect.
[00:47:22.310]Or impact the quality.
[00:47:23.590]And texture of the products.
[00:47:24.810]Like as multiple HPP runs.
[00:47:27.630]More harsh on the overall product quality.
[00:47:29.630]I think you have to think about.
[00:47:31.810]What is the product right.
[00:47:33.150]So I'll use the example of like a guacamole.
[00:47:36.050]An avocado.
[00:47:37.030]Which the avocado itself.
[00:47:39.690]Is a cellular structure.
[00:47:41.450]That is going to become damaged.
[00:47:44.030]Or weakened from pressure.
[00:47:46.390]Just like the microbial cells will.
[00:47:49.070]Which that's what you want right.
[00:47:50.650]But when that happens to something.
[00:47:52.950]Like the avocado.
[00:47:53.730]It's going to put oil into the environment right.
[00:47:57.170]But if it's.
[00:47:58.730]If it's like one of our dairy dips.
[00:48:00.530]That we make.
[00:48:01.450]That is not a problem right.
[00:48:04.170]Because you don't have that same concern.
[00:48:06.230]With like yogurt.
[00:48:09.010]Or sour cream.
[00:48:10.510]Or mayonnaise right.
[00:48:11.790]It's not the same.
[00:48:13.070]It's not the same as like the avocado cellular structure.
[00:48:16.190]And luckily.
[00:48:18.290]At least in the world of HPP.
[00:48:20.690]A traditional two to three minute whole time.
[00:48:23.470]For guacamole.
[00:48:24.450]Is effective enough.
[00:48:26.550]You know it's the ingredients.
[00:48:28.390]It's typically in the dairy space.
[00:48:30.370]Which have.
[00:48:31.050]Higher counts of lactic acid bacteria.
[00:48:33.390]That sometimes.
[00:48:35.170]Again like if you.
[00:48:36.490]Have a lot of protein.
[00:48:38.150]So if you're making a chicken salad.
[00:48:39.690]And you have a lot of lactic acid bacteria.
[00:48:42.710]Going into that.
[00:48:43.890]Because of all the other ingredients.
[00:48:45.490]And it might need a little bit longer.
[00:48:47.110]Of a whole time.
[00:48:48.010]Or you know if you.
[00:48:49.630]Just don't have really great.
[00:48:51.830]Upstream you know GMPs.
[00:48:54.450]And you don't do a great job of like.
[00:48:56.250]Cleaning your herbs.
[00:48:57.730]Because herbs are inherently really dirty.
[00:49:00.830]And so then you've got.
[00:49:02.130]All these wonderful fresh herbs.
[00:49:03.910]In whatever your formula is.
[00:49:05.690]Or whatever your product is.
[00:49:06.710]Let's say it's a dip.
[00:49:07.490]Like a green goddess dip you know.
[00:49:09.290]But you've got really high counts.
[00:49:11.710]Going into that HPP process.
[00:49:13.790]So you do need something like.
[00:49:15.470]A back-to-back HPP time.
[00:49:17.290]Because you're just not in a place.
[00:49:19.750]Where you can fix your upstream GMPs.
[00:49:21.750]Just yet.
[00:49:23.190]Something like that.
[00:49:24.870]It shouldn't be a problem.
[00:49:26.030]Because of that base matrix.
[00:49:27.830]Is typically like a dairy based matrix.
[00:49:30.610]But if it was an avocado based matrix.
[00:49:33.130]Then yeah.
[00:49:34.370]You might see some kind of negative impact.
[00:49:36.770]From that back to back HPP process.
[00:49:39.110]So does that help answer your question?
[00:49:41.110]Yeah.
[00:49:42.470]That's very helpful.
[00:49:43.410]Thank you.
[00:49:44.110]And then we do have another question.
[00:49:47.890]I can see on chat.
[00:49:49.230]It says what kind of negative impact.
[00:49:51.170]On sensory quality is common.
[00:49:53.690]In RTE products.
[00:49:55.650]Well.
[00:49:57.810]So again.
[00:49:58.570]I would just say.
[00:50:00.390]It really depends on how much fresh.
[00:50:02.450]You want to have in there.
[00:50:03.930]And then what are those sources of fresh.
[00:50:06.770]If it's a lot of.
[00:50:08.430]Fresh ingredients that have chlorophyll in it.
[00:50:11.150]So herbs versus fresh onion.
[00:50:13.330]Very different.
[00:50:14.510]And it's really going to come down to.
[00:50:17.610]What are your upstream.
[00:50:19.590]Are you manufacturing and maintaining.
[00:50:21.830]In cold conditions.
[00:50:23.590]What is your time.
[00:50:26.310]To HPP delay.
[00:50:27.810]Is there opportunity.
[00:50:30.170]For enzyme activity.
[00:50:31.650]To get out of control.
[00:50:33.950]Or for the bacteria.
[00:50:35.290]To get out of control.
[00:50:36.510]It's not a perfect answer.
[00:50:39.190]Every single time.
[00:50:40.090]It's going to depend on.
[00:50:41.790]What your ingredients are.
[00:50:42.930]And how you manufacture it.
[00:50:44.670]Upstream of HPP.
[00:50:46.610]And that's kind of the one thing.
[00:50:48.270]I do try to.
[00:50:51.610]Help people remember.
[00:50:53.030]It's like that machine.
[00:50:54.750]Is a hunk of metal.
[00:50:56.170]That has one job.
[00:50:57.730]And all it knows how to do.
[00:50:59.210]Is apply pressure.
[00:50:59.950]And so everything else.
[00:51:01.770]Is your responsibility.
[00:51:02.990]And I think that's hard.
[00:51:04.570]Sometimes for people to accept.
[00:51:06.310]Because it's a million dollar investment.
[00:51:08.350]If they bought the equipment themselves.
[00:51:10.610]But it is just.
[00:51:12.770]The reality of it.
[00:51:14.310]It's not going to fix your problems.
[00:51:17.590]You are responsible.
[00:51:18.870]For fixing your problems.
[00:51:20.330]And so you really just kind of.
[00:51:22.330]Have to understand.
[00:51:23.330]That all it can do.
[00:51:26.290]Is apply pressure.
[00:51:27.090]So how do I want to make it work.
[00:51:29.090]Best for.
[00:51:29.770]Me kind of thing.
[00:51:30.850]Yeah.
[00:51:31.510]Yeah.
[00:51:31.910]It's definitely something that you know.
[00:51:33.030]How do you leverage that pressure.
[00:51:34.450]To get at what you want.
[00:51:35.950]So are you trying to use HPP.
[00:51:37.390]To inactivate bacteria.
[00:51:38.570]So then you optimize your process.
[00:51:40.130]To do that.
[00:51:40.730]If you're trying to get a different texture.
[00:51:42.710]Then that that's how you leverage pressure.
[00:51:44.750]To get to the right texture that you want.
[00:51:46.410]So.
[00:51:46.730]A hundred percent.
[00:51:47.570]Like I think there is.
[00:51:49.230]Really interesting.
[00:51:51.530]Untapped area.
[00:51:53.590]In looking at using HPP.
[00:51:56.650]At lower pressures.
[00:51:57.890]Like that three to four hundred.
[00:51:59.750]Megapascal.
[00:52:00.570]To see the benefits that you get.
[00:52:03.670]Out of proteins that you don't get.
[00:52:06.110]At six hundred megapascals.
[00:52:07.950]And how as food manufacturers.
[00:52:10.050]Do we get there.
[00:52:11.250]Because we need.
[00:52:12.510]We need the high level of pressure.
[00:52:14.130]To kill the bacteria.
[00:52:15.270]But going back to this beneficial relationship.
[00:52:18.410]With clean preservatives.
[00:52:19.950]You know is there an opportunity.
[00:52:21.970]For food manufacturers to explore.
[00:52:23.950]Using a lower pressure.
[00:52:25.530]To get certain protein benefits.
[00:52:27.770]With clean preservatives.
[00:52:29.510]To still get your bacteria reduction.
[00:52:33.410]And shelf life that you're looking for.
[00:52:35.350]I think that's a very.
[00:52:36.470]Unresearched area.
[00:52:38.510]Because we're so comfortable.
[00:52:40.230]And confident in using 87,000 PSI.
[00:52:43.530]It's just like it checks that box.
[00:52:46.510]And let's face it.
[00:52:48.710]A lot of the publications.
[00:52:49.770]And challenge studies.
[00:52:51.450]That people have already paid for.
[00:52:52.930]Are done at that higher pressure.
[00:52:55.350]Right.
[00:52:56.550]I really like your comment earlier.
[00:52:58.170]About the synergistic effects.
[00:52:59.410]With antimicrobials.
[00:53:00.690]My group's presentation.
[00:53:02.550]Has an example.
[00:53:03.650]Exactly what you're talking about.
[00:53:05.410]Using 300 megapascal.
[00:53:06.890]With some weak organic acids.
[00:53:08.950]And what kind of inactivation.
[00:53:10.850]We get from that combination.
[00:53:13.030]And kind of to your word too.
[00:53:15.350]About using lower pressures.
[00:53:16.530]To maybe harness some protein functionality.
[00:53:18.930]That we don't even know right now.
[00:53:21.570]I'm a firm believer.
[00:53:23.010]That the more we explore.
[00:53:24.970]Some of these additional applications.
[00:53:27.910]Of HPP.
[00:53:28.770]Beyond.
[00:53:29.310]Just pasteurization.
[00:53:30.730]Is really a way to grow the industry.
[00:53:33.770]And for us to just have more fun.
[00:53:36.170]And innovation within this space.
[00:53:37.990]So pretty cool.
[00:53:39.490]Okay well you get me talking.
[00:53:41.070]But we do have one more question.
[00:53:43.070]That I want to read off I think.
[00:53:44.790]It's all about packaging.
[00:53:47.450]And I know we have a packaging person.
[00:53:50.570]This afternoon.
[00:53:51.310]Zach Moscato.
[00:53:52.250]This was a different kind of packaging.
[00:53:54.330]Than what he's going to talk about though.
[00:53:55.850]Number one.
[00:53:56.790]Can you please address how headspace.
[00:53:58.790]In a bottle of juice.
[00:53:59.790]Affects HPP.
[00:54:01.350]And then number two.
[00:54:02.790]How do the dimensions of the package.
[00:54:04.790]Affect the effectiveness of the HPP process.
[00:54:08.590]So.
[00:54:09.990]And Danielle.
[00:54:10.830]You can feel free to jump into.
[00:54:12.430]I mean with headspace in general.
[00:54:14.690]You know you typically.
[00:54:16.190]Definitely want to have either some headspace.
[00:54:18.930]Or at least the flexibility.
[00:54:20.390]If it's a vacuum packed product.
[00:54:21.890]But since the question was specifically for juice.
[00:54:24.570]Some headspace is necessary.
[00:54:27.710]In order for.
[00:54:29.090]When the bottle is squeezed.
[00:54:30.630]You don't want that cap to pop off.
[00:54:33.350]So having the right plastic.
[00:54:35.850]Like the right.
[00:54:36.510]Density of resin.
[00:54:38.770]In your bottle.
[00:54:39.750]So that you don't get any paneling.
[00:54:41.410]Post HPP is going to be important for that.
[00:54:43.810]And you know.
[00:54:45.510]There are people in the past.
[00:54:47.310]That have looked at.
[00:54:48.290]Wanting to freeze their product.
[00:54:50.210]After HPP.
[00:54:51.550]And so that's kind of where.
[00:54:53.030]I think it gets a little bit tricky.
[00:54:54.250]As to what is the right amount of headspace.
[00:54:56.710]If you do want to do that step after.
[00:54:58.690]Because you need a little bit more.
[00:55:00.490]Than you would if you're not freezing.
[00:55:02.330]But then is that going to be a deterrent.
[00:55:05.350]To the consumer perception.
[00:55:06.890]Seeing that much headspace right.
[00:55:08.990]Because they're going to think like.
[00:55:10.350]Oh you're not actually putting.
[00:55:12.390]Eight fluid ounces in here.
[00:55:13.950]You know you're lying to me kind of thing.
[00:55:16.070]So that gets a little bit tricky.
[00:55:17.870]But if you're not freezing it after.
[00:55:19.610]I wouldn't.
[00:55:21.770]I wouldn't be able to give you like.
[00:55:23.090]An exact volume difference.
[00:55:26.090]For the bottle.
[00:55:27.070]Daniella might have.
[00:55:28.610]Something more specific.
[00:55:29.610]But you just.
[00:55:30.450]You do need some headspace.
[00:55:32.030]Or your cap's not going to blow off.
[00:55:33.490]And thank you also for that choice.
[00:55:37.630]But also.
[00:55:38.270]The more reduced the headspace is.
[00:55:41.010]The less you give space.
[00:55:42.850]Or thinking like that.
[00:55:43.590]Like to oxidative reactions.
[00:55:45.430]Like negative sensory effects.
[00:55:47.490]Because of oxygen present.
[00:55:49.350]I know that some customers.
[00:55:51.130]Also add like a drop of nitrogen.
[00:55:53.310]In order to do like an oxygen purge.
[00:55:55.990]So you take out the oxygen.
[00:55:57.810]And.
[00:55:58.530]This is nitrogen.
[00:55:59.190]Which is.
[00:55:59.870]Which won't react with your product.
[00:56:01.610]So that's another thing.
[00:56:03.330]Is done.
[00:56:04.350]With also.
[00:56:05.950]Joyce already mentioned that.
[00:56:07.430]About the paneling effect.
[00:56:08.690]Sometimes you'll see like.
[00:56:10.010]Some bottles that instead of being like this.
[00:56:12.410]They're like a little bit.
[00:56:13.410]Dented.
[00:56:13.910]That is called paneling.
[00:56:15.410]When there it's from one side.
[00:56:16.690]And that can easily be resolved.
[00:56:18.310]By changing a packaging type.
[00:56:19.650]That can be more.
[00:56:20.430]Like dense.
[00:56:21.510]The material.
[00:56:22.650]So that you can prevent it.
[00:56:25.090]And also filling it.
[00:56:25.910]A little bit more.
[00:56:28.450]And then I think the other question.
[00:56:29.610]Was based on the packaging.
[00:56:31.510]Like shape or design.
[00:56:33.230]Size essentially.
[00:56:35.030]Yes.
[00:56:35.530]I mean I think that.
[00:56:39.650]One because the pressure is uniform.
[00:56:42.330]You're not necessarily going to get.
[00:56:44.630]Like a lack of efficacy.
[00:56:46.550]Depending on that shape or size.
[00:56:48.550]Where people tend to.
[00:56:50.950]Consider the shape and sizes.
[00:56:52.770]If they want to optimize.
[00:56:54.250]The carrier fill.
[00:56:55.950]So obviously if you can.
[00:56:58.370]Have more throughput.
[00:56:59.330]Then your HPP cost per pound.
[00:57:02.390]Is lower.
[00:57:03.230]If you have very bulky.
[00:57:05.850]Awkward packaging.
[00:57:07.210]It's just going to make your HPP cycles.
[00:57:10.770]More expensive.
[00:57:11.690]So if you're trying to optimize.
[00:57:13.310]Your carrier fill.
[00:57:14.690]Then that could be where you want to be.
[00:57:17.410]A little bit more intentional.
[00:57:19.370]With your package shape and size.
[00:57:22.110]Danielle do you have anything else.
[00:57:23.830]To add to that?
[00:57:24.470]Just saying.
[00:57:28.290]We have seen.
[00:57:29.230]Packaging types that have more rounded corners.
[00:57:32.690]They provide more rigidity.
[00:57:33.990]Because if they are pretty.
[00:57:36.010]Like.
[00:57:37.870]Not that rounded.
[00:57:40.090]It can cause that.
[00:57:41.410]In contact with other packagings.
[00:57:43.390]It can break.
[00:57:44.150]If it is a cup that is squared.
[00:57:47.710]And isn't that rounded.
[00:57:49.230]It can break in contact with film.
[00:57:50.950]We have seen that square bottles.
[00:57:53.870]Can help increase.
[00:57:55.350]That vessel filling ratio.
[00:57:58.210]Will increase productivity.
[00:57:59.430]As Joyce mentioned.
[00:58:00.550]It is important to validate the packaging.
[00:58:02.750]But also see how much you can fill up.
[00:58:05.270]Those blue baskets that we shared.
[00:58:07.610]The more you can fill up those blue baskets.
[00:58:10.630]The more productivity you will have.
[00:58:12.510]Because you won't be processing void spaces.
[00:58:15.530]Or air.
[00:58:16.590]So just to consider that as well.
[00:58:19.710]And also.
[00:58:20.290]The sizes.
[00:58:22.510]It will depend on how it fits in the basket.
[00:58:26.810]There are a lot of.
[00:58:28.130]Baskets options.
[00:58:29.230]That's a good point.
[00:58:32.210]It's probably not a problem for everybody.
[00:58:35.990]But for someone like ourselves.
[00:58:38.150]And maybe for the tolling facilities.
[00:58:39.790]We know we can't put our salad dressing bottles.
[00:58:43.670]In the carrier with our dip containers.
[00:58:46.870]To exactly what Danielle said.
[00:58:48.590]The hard rigid plastic of the bottle.
[00:58:52.350]Will puncture into the lid film.
[00:58:55.310]On our cups and containers.
[00:58:58.050]We can't mix the two together.
[00:59:01.510]Hard rigid bottles have to go in a carrier.
[00:59:04.370]With other hard rigid bottles.
[00:59:06.050]If it was a blend of different sizes.
[00:59:10.650]That's not a problem.
[00:59:11.810]We can't put hard rigid bottles in a carrier.
[00:59:14.930]That also has containers with lid film.
[00:59:17.750]Thank you.

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HPP Product Development and Shelf-Life

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