S2E12: You Got This: Keeping Your Kids at the Center of Co-Parenting
Nebraska Extension Early Childhood Program Area-Emily Manning, Dr. Holly Hatton, Ingrid Lindal, Erin Kampbell, Linda Reddish, Katie Krause, and LaDonna Werth
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03/31/2025
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Co-parenting comes with unique challenges, but you don’t have to navigate them alone. In this episode, we take on real questions from parents and listeners about the most common struggles they face when co-parenting. To provide expert insights, we’re joined by two distinguished guests from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln: Dr. Cody Hollist, associate professor of Child, Youth, and Family Studies with a background in marriage and family therapy, and Dr. Holly Hatton, associate professor of Child, Youth, and Family Studies, who brings both professional expertise and personal experience in co-parenting.
Together, they share practical advice on adapting to life after divorce, communicating effectively with a co-parent, and ensuring that your children remain at the heart of co-parenting.
Resources: Nebraska Extension Co-Parenting for Successful Kids https://child.unl.edu/coparenting/
The following music was used for this media project: Music: Afterparty Review by Sascha Ende Free download: https://filmmusic.io/song/2962-afterparty-review License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license "Wholesome" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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- [00:00:00.000]This is The Good Life in Early Life, a production of Nebraska Extension.
- [00:00:13.100]I'm your host, Emily Manning, an Early Childhood Extension Educator based in Seward County.
- [00:00:17.880]In this episode, we are exploring the topic of co-parenting.
- [00:00:20.840]We're going to dive into some of the common challenges that may be faced by those who
- [00:00:24.380]are co-parenting and how to support children through a divorce and then afterwards when
- [00:00:28.460]you are co-parenting.
- [00:00:29.540]Today, I have with me two fantastic guests to help us explore this topic further.
- [00:00:33.660]I'm going to let them share about who they are and their specialties.
- [00:00:38.000]Let's start with Dr. Hollist.
- [00:00:39.840]Would you tell us who you are and where you work and your experience working with families?
- [00:00:44.440]Sure, Emily.
- [00:00:45.460]Thanks.
- [00:00:45.940]Thanks for inviting me here.
- [00:00:47.220]I am an associate professor of child, youth, and family studies.
- [00:00:51.320]My background is in marriage and family therapy and specifically working with families through
- [00:00:57.660]traumatic experiences.
- [00:00:59.320]And I'm really challenging life circumstances.
- [00:01:02.780]And my research is mostly on kind of community interventions and community engagement in
- [00:01:09.280]Brazil and other places where there's a lot of high-risk populations and high-risk circumstances.
- [00:01:15.020]And so certainly for the co-parents that are going to be listening to this, community
- [00:01:20.480]engagement and working with communities is a critical piece of survival.
- [00:01:24.060]And for everybody that raises kids, it's how do we engage the community around us in that
- [00:01:28.560]process?
- [00:01:29.260]Right.
- [00:01:29.400]So I'm really grateful to be here and I'm glad to be here.
- [00:01:32.480]I also am the father of five kiddos.
- [00:01:36.140]One of them is adopted from Brazil and has some pretty significant special needs.
- [00:01:41.360]He is not a little kiddo anymore.
- [00:01:43.920]He's 23 now.
- [00:01:45.040]And I have two grandkids who are two and four.
- [00:01:47.940]I have everybody from kind of 27 down to 14 is the youngest.
- [00:01:53.880]Wow.
- [00:01:54.640]Wonderful.
- [00:01:55.340]Thanks so much for being here.
- [00:01:56.780]Yeah.
- [00:01:57.240]Dr. Hatton, would you share?
- [00:01:59.200]Who you are, what work you do, and your connection to this topic today.
- [00:02:03.580]Thank you, Emily, for having me on the podcast again.
- [00:02:07.440]It's so great to be here today talking about a topic of co-parenting that I think is so
- [00:02:12.140]important.
- [00:02:12.740]Just the research I've done and then also personally sharing my lived experience.
- [00:02:17.160]So thank you for having me.
- [00:02:18.360]So I am an associate professor in child, youth, and family studies at the University of Nebraska
- [00:02:23.140]Lincoln.
- [00:02:23.520]And a lot of my work is on supporting the emotional well-being of
- [00:02:29.140]caregivers like parents and young children's emotional well-being.
- [00:02:33.660]Great.
- [00:02:34.380]Did you want to share your personal connection?
- [00:02:36.780]Sure.
- [00:02:37.880]So I will share.
- [00:02:39.820]I have a daughter who is 10 years old and her dad and I divorced when she was about
- [00:02:47.720]four and a half, five.
- [00:02:48.980]You know, those things take a lot of process, but separation happened around when she was
- [00:02:53.400]four years old.
- [00:02:54.120]So we've had some time to think and reflect about coping.
- [00:02:59.080]So parenting for her, for her best interest.
- [00:03:02.120]And so, yeah, that's the experience I want to share today is what that's been like for,
- [00:03:06.600]you know, the past almost six years.
- [00:03:08.320]All right.
- [00:03:09.260]We're going to start off with some fun and also be thinking about what it's like to be
- [00:03:14.520]a child.
- [00:03:14.940]So I'm going to ask you to share a funny story about you as a child or a favorite memory
- [00:03:19.700]from your childhood, but I'll go first today.
- [00:03:22.020]So since it's March, I wanted to share one of my favorite projects from being in first
- [00:03:28.080]grade.
- [00:03:29.020]My first grade teacher told us about the saying that March comes in like a lion and then goes
- [00:03:34.140]out like a lamb.
- [00:03:35.180]So she had each one of us color in a lion and a lamb, and then she would use our drawings
- [00:03:40.460]to mark that day and whether it was a lion kind of day or a lamb day for the weather.
- [00:03:46.120]And it was really a great introduction to graphing and collecting data and making observations
- [00:03:51.540]and using all of that to determine whether or not something, if a saying was true or
- [00:03:56.500]not.
- [00:03:56.740]So really my introduction to research.
- [00:03:58.960]So I really want to thank my first grade teacher for introducing me to that and my
- [00:04:02.880]love for science and research.
- [00:04:04.640]How about you?
- [00:04:05.580]So I think one of my favorite memories, and I come from parents who divorced when I was
- [00:04:12.280]about two years old.
- [00:04:13.220]So, and at that time, the first five years of my life was really raised by my dad.
- [00:04:18.440]And so it was my younger sister and I, my younger sister, Amy, and I, and she's 16 months
- [00:04:24.220]younger.
- [00:04:24.480]So we were really close.
- [00:04:25.700]And I think that really helped us actually through.
- [00:04:28.900]The divorce process, but something that I was really sweet memory is that my dad, he
- [00:04:35.120]routinely read to us every night.
- [00:04:37.500]And so my sister and I would cuddle up into our bed.
- [00:04:40.900]We had a shared bed.
- [00:04:41.640]And so we would cuddle up with him and he would read us for almost like 15, 20, sometimes
- [00:04:46.660]30 minutes a night.
- [00:04:47.540]And we would just cuddle up with him and he would read to us every night.
- [00:04:50.540]And that developed a love of reading for both my sister and I, that was just a really sweet
- [00:04:55.440]memory of what we looked forward to with our dad growing.
- [00:04:58.840]And he did that until, you know, we got a little bit younger and then even then he would
- [00:05:02.960]still order me like my favorite books and write little messages for me.
- [00:05:07.560]So yeah, so that's a really sweet, fun memory of my dad and my sister.
- [00:05:12.980]That's a great story.
- [00:05:14.220]The story that I'd like to share is that when I was a little kid, I grew up in Montana and
- [00:05:18.980]we lived in kind of a really mountainous part of Northwestern Montana and one of the jobs
- [00:05:23.420]that my father had was that he would help cut Christmas trees in the mountains and then
- [00:05:28.780]the owner of the Christmas tree business that employed my dad, so they would start cutting
- [00:05:32.200]in October and they would cut for about a month and then they would load them onto a
- [00:05:36.240]semi and then about a few days before Thanksgiving, the week before Thanksgiving, they would take
- [00:05:41.940]all of the Christmas trees to Utah to sell the Christmas trees and so then between a
- [00:05:47.720]few days before Thanksgiving to about the 21st of December, they would spend in Utah
- [00:05:52.800]selling Christmas trees and my dad loved Christmas, he just loved the time of year but it was an
- [00:05:58.720]interesting thing being apart from him during the time when he was doing the things that he loved
- [00:06:02.940]which was selling Christmas trees and engaging with families around us and then he would come
- [00:06:07.640]back and then it was really for us, his family, it was really delaying celebrating Christmas until
- [00:06:14.060]he would get back and so it was this kind of putting off all of the celebrations and things
- [00:06:18.540]that we would do until the 21st and then kind of trying to cram them all in as we tried to get
- [00:06:23.360]ready in the few days before Christmas. So I think in some ways that's a lot of the kind
- [00:06:28.660]of navigating holiday traditions that co-parents have to do when they have their time compared to
- [00:06:35.360]their ex-spouse's time with the kiddos. And so I think it's just, there's lots of reasons why we
- [00:06:41.560]have to navigate traditions differently. And yet traditions are tremendously important to kind of
- [00:06:47.980]child development and growing up. And so I think that was just a great, that's a great memory that
- [00:06:53.400]I have of waiting with tremendous anticipation for him to get home.
- [00:06:58.600]To kind of be able to start having Christmas celebrations.
- [00:07:01.280]Thanks for sharing that story with us today. As we talk about co-parenting and helping support
- [00:07:06.780]children through co-parenting and divorce, I want to give kind of the audience a picture
- [00:07:11.580]of maybe what's happening in Nebraska or even nationally with divorce and co-parenting.
- [00:07:17.080]Do you happen to know how often divorce is happening, like percentage wise?
- [00:07:22.520]Divorce rates are a challenging thing to nail down. I think the kind of easy rule
- [00:07:28.540]of thumb that people go to is like a 50% divorce rate. It's a little bit hard to predict
- [00:07:34.820]because that kind of looks at across the spectrum of ages, and that isn't necessarily always
- [00:07:40.820]reflective of those that have children. I will, however, say that I think the most recent
- [00:07:46.320]thing that I read, about half of the kids at some point in their developmental years
- [00:07:52.780]from zero to 18, at some point about half of the kids will live for a period of time
- [00:07:58.480]with parents who are separated or divorced. And so I think probably that 50% is about right
- [00:08:06.020]for how many kids during some portion of that time will spend living away from one parent.
- [00:08:12.240]Yeah. So pretty often that it is occurring. So it's not out of the norm anymore. It's definitely
- [00:08:19.160]a part of our society and what's happening. And so definitely some good, this will be some
- [00:08:24.280]good information for people out there. So what are some key emotional challenges
- [00:08:28.420]that parents may face after divorce or separation? I think one of the key challenges
- [00:08:34.520]is the change that takes place with kind of balancing individual needs and togetherness
- [00:08:41.140]needs and kind of that balance of togetherness and individuality is a critical part of development,
- [00:08:47.920]not just for kiddos, but for adults too. And it is adults in any kind of marital status,
- [00:08:53.120]in any kind of circumstance, balancing the time they spend with those they love and the time
- [00:08:58.360]that they get to do the things that they want to is an important piece. And after a divorce,
- [00:09:02.800]there's this big shift in the intentionality that has to take place with the time I spend
- [00:09:10.420]with my loved ones and especially with my kiddos and the time I spend with myself.
- [00:09:15.960]And so adapting to that, I don't get to spend as much time as I want with my kids,
- [00:09:21.800]or at least I don't get to spend it as fluidly as I want. And so it might be
- [00:09:28.300]every other week or whatever the structure, whatever the custody agreement is. So it's
- [00:09:32.480]imposed upon me. It's not just kind of whatever feels natural or easy. And so that's often really
- [00:09:39.860]hard to adjust to of like, how do I balance this time together and the time that I have for myself
- [00:09:45.280]and structure it in a way that's consistent with whatever the custody agreement is.
- [00:09:49.820]So I think that's a big thing. I think the other one is just,
- [00:09:54.000]and as I work with people in a therapeutic setting, I think people underestimate,
- [00:09:58.240]how difficult it is to make that adjustment. And so they oftentimes think of the simple things
- [00:10:04.060]like costs and custody kinds of questions and child support questions, but they don't recognize
- [00:10:11.780]that there's a lot of time that then they'll be in their house by themselves. And what do they do
- [00:10:16.020]with that time? And how do they adjust to that? And shopping in a different way for food. And
- [00:10:22.500]there's all these pieces and it's kind of hard to predict for some people because they don't
- [00:10:28.180]until they're in it, all of the adjustments that they're going to have to make. And so I think one
- [00:10:33.020]of the other challenges is just how do you stay flexible enough during that time period and
- [00:10:38.680]recognize the times when I'm frustrated is really probably because I'm needing to adjust to something
- [00:10:44.600]that I don't want to adjust to, but now I need to. And being able to effectively adjust is what
- [00:10:51.420]keeps us from having problems, right? Is we need to adapt. And when we don't adapt, then that failure
- [00:10:58.120]adapt long-term creates problems that become really difficult to deal with. But it's the,
- [00:11:03.560]can I stay flexible enough to adapt? I think those are some big ones. And I don't want to
- [00:11:08.440]oversimplify it, but also don't want to make concrete, well, you just need to do X, Y, and Z,
- [00:11:12.440]and it's going to be fine. But you do need to be patient and flexible as people try to work
- [00:11:17.940]through stuff. And that's one of the things I do as a therapist is try to help them do that.
- [00:11:21.180]So, Dr. Hollist was just talking about how going through divorce and separation and then
- [00:11:28.060]co-parenting afterwards can be kind of an emotional shift and learning how to how do I
- [00:11:33.180]balance this time by myself and then the time we are together after a divorce, like time together
- [00:11:38.140]with your child. And I know that you have personal experience with this. Do you want to share that
- [00:11:42.780]with with our listeners?
- [00:11:44.360]That can be really hard when you go from being, you know, the first four years of my daughter's
- [00:11:50.580]life. I was with her almost every day, tucking her in and taking care of her. And her dad did a
- [00:11:58.000]two actually, he was a stay at home dad for the first two and a half years of her life, right? So
- [00:12:02.680]they were very close. So just we had this kind of system that we had in our family. And so then
- [00:12:07.300]at age four to say, Oh, now you're not going to be with her for a few nights a week, you know,
- [00:12:13.360]to start off with. That was really hard. That was like really hard to not be there to say good night
- [00:12:19.120]to her and give her her bath and do those things that were really important to me. And so that was
- [00:12:24.240]hard to let go of that. So I think in that initial period,
- [00:12:27.940]transition, there was a lot of sadness. I'm going to admit there was a lot of crying sometimes just
- [00:12:33.960]sitting on the couch and crying and just wanting to physically be in her presence. And also knowing
- [00:12:39.160]it was really important for her to have that relationship with her dad. And so both things
- [00:12:44.080]can be true. So it was like holding space for both those things, for my sadness, for the whole way
- [00:12:48.840]that my life was really changing and shifting with how I was going about my day. It took an
- [00:12:57.880]to one of my really close friends who was actually going through a divorce at the same time.
- [00:13:02.980]And so even just sending her a text and saying, this really, pardon my language,
- [00:13:08.760]this really sucks. It's really hurts. I really just in missing her and we would just connect.
- [00:13:14.600]And sometimes, I mean, that was through text. Sometimes it was a phone call.
- [00:13:17.640]What I started to do was plan activities to do with friends so that I know that I could,
- [00:13:24.000]you know, have this time to spend time with friends, which has actually been really nice.
- [00:13:27.820]Like every connection of being able to do things and activities with friends. So that was one thing
- [00:13:32.660]was really reaching out for support and saying like, I'm not okay. And I need that support.
- [00:13:38.100]And also my family, I really relied on my mom and dad to be there as my constant to talk to my
- [00:13:45.140]brother I'm really close to too. So sometimes I would just call him and I didn't even want to
- [00:13:48.580]talk about what was going on. I would just like, just make me laugh, just talk to me. And then
- [00:13:52.620]something else I really leaned into that was helpful for me is I was like, oh, this is a great time
- [00:13:57.760]to think about my own self-care. And so I really just leaned into more like getting exercise. And
- [00:14:03.040]so I joined a yoga studio actually, and some group activity and running. And I think that that was
- [00:14:08.760]just helpful to have another community to be with others. So I think for me, it was just not sitting
- [00:14:14.600]and being alone all the time. And so I think you have to be flexible and adaptable, right?
- [00:14:19.880]In part, you need to be that way because of your child's developing and getting older and engaging
- [00:14:26.260]in different activities.
- [00:14:27.700]And so there's different developmental periods where you have to be flexible and adaptable
- [00:14:32.900]in terms of how things may shift and change with scheduling, with communication,
- [00:14:38.280]with meeting the child's desires and needs, right? So there has to be flexibility with that.
- [00:14:43.520]At the end of the day, I think something that my daughter's dad and I have done really well
- [00:14:48.420]is always thinking what's in her best interest.
- [00:14:51.100]Thank you, Dr. Hatton, for sharing that with us. And now I'd like to go
- [00:14:57.640]to Dr. Hollist, because I'm curious, in your work as a therapist, how would you help someone
- [00:15:05.080]maybe plan for those unexpected emotional challenges of like, I'm not going to see my
- [00:15:13.480]kid as often as I would like. I don't get to have those spontaneous moments of like,
- [00:15:17.940]I saw this new cookie recipe, and I really want to make that with the kids.
- [00:15:22.400]Or let's go look at the lunar eclipse tonight. Or, you know,
- [00:15:27.580]any of those spontaneous moments that you can't really have because it's not
- [00:15:31.140]your week or your day to have the kids. Yeah, that's a really good question, Emily.
- [00:15:36.340]And it's a really hard process, right? Yeah. Acceptance of the way things really are
- [00:15:43.520]is a hard thing to do. But it's a necessary thing that this is the way it is. And it doesn't help
- [00:15:50.980]your kid if there's constant pushing back of, I hate that this is the way it is. Adapting
- [00:15:57.520]to this is the way it is and we can adjust is helpful. Your question, I think, is a good one.
- [00:16:03.320]But I think it's one that requires self-awareness. And so checking in and being mindful of how we're
- [00:16:10.440]reacting. And when we have that, oh, I want to look at the stars tonight. And you're driving
- [00:16:15.460]home and you hear that there's going to be a lunar eclipse. And you say, oh, I want to look
- [00:16:19.200]at the stars. And then you realize it's not your week to have the kids. And that emotion that rises
- [00:16:24.780]up. And if self-awareness
- [00:16:27.460]isn't good, then there can be a reaction to that emotion that isn't helpful, that doesn't
- [00:16:33.560]help the person adapt. It doesn't help them to respond. And so self-awareness leads to
- [00:16:39.340]self-control. When we have awareness of what's going on within us and why, we can choose how
- [00:16:45.460]to respond. And so then that gives them power to decide how they're going to respond to that
- [00:16:52.120]moment. And I think that that's important is like that
- [00:16:57.400]ongoing check-in. And so you can't control how you adapt if you're not recognizing what's going
- [00:17:04.000]on. So that's the first thing is just at its core, that's critical.
- [00:17:08.580]So how that might look in that situation with like a lunar eclipse and you realize that it's
- [00:17:15.240]not your week to have the kids in that moment, you might feel grief, right? You might feel
- [00:17:20.760]frustration that you can't have the kids with you. And what might,
- [00:17:27.340]different actions look like. So what would reactive behavior look like versus responding
- [00:17:33.280]in the moment and kind of accepting those feelings and what's happening?
- [00:17:37.260]That's a great question. A reaction that isn't grounded in self-awareness might look like
- [00:17:44.060]sending an angry text to kiddo's parent who has the kiddo saying, don't forget to let them see
- [00:17:51.460]the eclipse and blah, blah, blah. And it becomes this angry reaction and this angry,
- [00:17:57.280]interaction between the co-parent. A healthy response would be to allow yourself to feel sad
- [00:18:04.160]and to decide like, am I going to see it by myself so I can talk to them about it?
- [00:18:09.120]Or do I just let myself grieve for a minute and be sad? Because it is sad.
- [00:18:15.720]And there's no way to fix that. There's not a quick solution to the fact that it's sad.
- [00:18:21.780]So I think that the self-awareness lets us deal with what's really at the root of it.
- [00:18:27.220]Instead of reacting in a way that actually causes more problems than
- [00:18:30.860]dealing with what's really going on.
- [00:18:33.600]And like you said, that can be really hard to do.
- [00:18:36.260]Very.
- [00:18:36.840]Very, very hard to do. Especially if some of those emotions are uncomfortable for us.
- [00:18:41.600]There might be emotions that they don't feel comfortable, you know, diving into.
- [00:18:45.680]But the more that we allow ourselves to accept that and sit with those emotions or recognize
- [00:18:51.520]what's happening, the more that we're able to choose how we're moving forward and responding
- [00:18:57.160]to those emotions and responding to the moment.
- [00:19:00.240]And then we can give ourselves some grace and we can say, this is sad and this is hard.
- [00:19:05.540]And I need to be patient with myself as I have these hard moments.
- [00:19:10.520]And it's hard to give yourself grace if you're not recognizing what's really going on.
- [00:19:16.120]It's good advice.
- [00:19:18.560]Thank you for that.
- [00:19:20.040]We reached out.
- [00:19:21.880]Actually, one of our team members on the podcast reached out on Facebook and asked people what
- [00:19:26.860]they would like to hear.
- [00:19:27.100]What they would like to know more about on this topic of co-parenting.
- [00:19:30.140]And so I'm going to share some of these that they shared with us and maybe have you respond
- [00:19:35.860]to that and give some advice for people.
- [00:19:37.740]So one of the top ones was making parenting plans and scheduling and kind of balancing
- [00:19:45.060]scheduling.
- [00:19:45.680]Do you have any advice or have you worked with parents before on these?
- [00:19:49.260]Yeah.
- [00:19:49.840]And I think that that kind of speaks to a communication plan, right?
- [00:19:54.700]And one of the places that...
- [00:19:57.040]Couples who have been separated and are now functioning in a co-parenting way, one of
- [00:20:02.500]the things that happens in co-parent kind of breakdowns is communication breakdowns.
- [00:20:07.620]And so most of the time when people talk about kids getting put in the middle and it's usually
- [00:20:15.000]around kind of miscommunication or communication should never have happened or things like
- [00:20:20.360]that.
- [00:20:20.580]And so one of the things that I think is really important in this regard is like agreement
- [00:20:24.820]in a co-parenting plan.
- [00:20:26.440]Like what?
- [00:20:27.020]What is our communication going to look like?
- [00:20:29.240]When I've worked with couples who are in this space, it's a lot of like, we're not going
- [00:20:33.660]to communicate about the weather.
- [00:20:36.720]We're going to communicate about logistics.
- [00:20:38.840]When are we picking up the kids?
- [00:20:40.940]Those kinds of things and kind of logistics around not just pickups and drop offs, but
- [00:20:46.340]also around parent teacher conferences and basketball games and practices and decisions
- [00:20:53.520]that are necessitated by like, are we going to enroll them?
- [00:20:57.000]And X, Y, or Z.
- [00:20:57.980]And so whatever the kind of agreements look like, it's really just communication as necessary
- [00:21:04.500]to execute things.
- [00:21:05.560]And I mean, there's a huge range of how amiable the divorces are, right?
- [00:21:09.600]Some people don't ever want to see the person again and other people are pretty good friends.
- [00:21:13.040]And so what I see though, is even people that are really good friends, if they don't structure
- [00:21:18.240]intentionally the communication over time, that friendship can break down.
- [00:21:22.640]And so even if they're like, we're pretty good friends and we still get along with each
- [00:21:26.680]other.
- [00:21:26.980]They still need to have a conversation about what are we going to talk about?
- [00:21:30.040]What are we going to communicate about?
- [00:21:31.320]So misunderstandings don't start to enter into the experience, right?
- [00:21:37.880]For the kiddos.
- [00:21:38.560]So I think agreeing on what communication and how to structure it, I think is really
- [00:21:43.180]valuable.
- [00:21:43.620]Yes.
- [00:21:44.860]And Emily, if I can just add to this, the purpose of you remaining in communication
- [00:21:48.860]and being together is for the child.
- [00:21:50.940]And I think that sometimes certain things can, can come up because there is prior hurt
- [00:21:56.960]or there are prior situations where it can cause you to feel very reactive and it can
- [00:22:02.960]be an emotionally evocative situation, right?
- [00:22:04.900]Like you might read a text and
- [00:22:06.980]know that you have this history with this person. And so you put all of that into that one text.
- [00:22:11.220]And then you talk about your child, which is really personal to you. And then you have this
- [00:22:17.000]potential separation of like finances now and money and like spending. How do you, how do you
- [00:22:22.680]talk about and negotiate those things? Right. There's like a myriad of things that can cause
- [00:22:27.480]you to be, that can just kind of emotionally make you feel frustrated or angry. Right. And so I
- [00:22:34.400]think you have to be very self-aware and pause. Like there's such a power in the pause so that
- [00:22:42.100]you understand why is it that I'm feeling this way? Just acknowledging, like I'm feeling really
- [00:22:47.220]frustrated right now. I feel angry. I feel like I just got attacked. That doesn't feel good.
- [00:22:52.200]Yeah. Is that what's happening? I don't know, but that's how it might feel. And so to have some
- [00:22:57.840]self-awareness of that can be really important and then say like, what's the way I want to show
- [00:23:02.700]up for my child in this situation so that it's not going to lead to conflict. If that's possible,
- [00:23:08.960]what's the best outcome for my daughter, you know, in particular, like what, how do I want
- [00:23:13.500]this conversation to go or the situation to be for her? If I react in this way, it might lead
- [00:23:19.800]to more conflict and more hostility, more, you know, things that aren't going to be in the best
- [00:23:24.020]interest of her. And at the end of the day, don't make me feel better. So I think that's where it's
- [00:23:28.700]really important of the power of the pause. And I think also having clarity,
- [00:23:32.680]within communication of how are we going to communicate? I think every situation is
- [00:23:38.440]different between a co-parent and through their divorce and the context they're in.
- [00:23:42.060]So in our situation, there is, you know, pretty much we communicate about our daughter and about
- [00:23:49.660]her activities. Maybe if we're at her activities, we might, like, I remember she had, you know,
- [00:23:56.540]her violin recital and her dad had this really important thing he had to be at. So he was out
- [00:24:01.660]of town. And so, you know, I took pictures of the recital and her being there and sent that to him.
- [00:24:05.960]So things like that, where we communicate about her so that we can still have those
- [00:24:11.420]shared experiences, I think is something that works for us.
- [00:24:14.800]So does that look like really black and white? Like, we are only going to talk about
- [00:24:19.900]kids and logistics, and we're just going to keep it to the practical kind of conversations,
- [00:24:26.300]and we're not going to have some of that small talk, like, how's it going? What's the weather
- [00:24:31.100]like?
- [00:24:31.380]Where you're at? Is that what you're saying?
- [00:24:33.900]A lot of times. A lot of times, yeah. If they're not really good friends afterwards, if there's
- [00:24:39.500]hard feelings, then as a therapist, I tell them, yeah, you need to stay true to that
- [00:24:44.580]and stay away from things that are, what are you going to do with the kids? Things that
- [00:24:52.960]are going to influence or create frustration when one person's saying, no, I'm going to
- [00:24:58.100]do that. And just stick with what you're doing.
- [00:25:01.360]What are you doing? When do we drop them off? When do we have to pick them up? So in some
- [00:25:06.980]cases it is that black and white. I don't think it always is. And if it isn't for the
- [00:25:13.360]co-parents, they need to be grateful because it's not always that way. They need to be
- [00:25:17.860]glad that they can kind of have those, how you doing conversations. But for a lot of
- [00:25:22.580]people it is.
- [00:25:23.580]Yeah. Just really sticking to the facts and sticking just to figuring out logistics.
- [00:25:27.860]Yeah.
- [00:25:28.860]It's just about the kids.
- [00:25:29.860]Yes.
- [00:25:30.860]The conversation is about the kids, either activities or timelines or schedules, or it's
- [00:25:35.300]just about the kids.
- [00:25:36.800]Right. And so what might be the consequences of like asking like, oh, what are you going
- [00:25:42.860]to do with the kids this weekend?
- [00:25:44.080]What I've seen happen with couples is that then they get into a place where they're trying
- [00:25:49.240]to weigh in on what the other person is doing with the kids and they want to have a say
- [00:25:55.180]in what the other person is doing with the kids. And then the other person starts to
- [00:25:59.600]feel like you can't.
- [00:26:00.360]You can't control the time I have with the kids. This is my time and I don't have to
- [00:26:05.240]answer to you about what I do. So then actually there can be kind of polarizing where they
- [00:26:11.180]get into this like power struggle. And what that inherently happens when you have a power
- [00:26:16.380]struggle between co-parents is the kiddos are in the middle.
- [00:26:19.160]And so it isn't one person's choice what the other parent does with the kiddos. I mean
- [00:26:26.840]within reason if there's dangerous things that's different, but that's, that's, you
- [00:26:30.340]know, it's usually not the case. It's usually like, well, I wanted to do that or I don't
- [00:26:35.300]think that's a good thing for them to do. It's too cold to go outside and play basketball.
- [00:26:39.120]Well, that's, that's a choice, right? There's ways around it's cold and we want to play
- [00:26:44.600]basketball, right? It also turns into a, oh, you're always trying to be the fun parent
- [00:26:49.180]and I'm always the one who has to get the homework done. And then that gets, then that
- [00:26:53.680]starts to go sideways too. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and also if somebody's asking,
- [00:27:00.320]because they're asking what you plan to do, doesn't mean you have to share and you can just
- [00:27:04.700]say, I don't know, we'll figure something out. That's good advice. You can sidestep it. Yeah.
- [00:27:09.520]Good response. Good response. Definitely. Next, I want to move into how can parents who've
- [00:27:17.200]experienced divorce, how, how do they avoid falling into like talking poorly about the other
- [00:27:22.860]parent or how do they handle if their co-parent is maybe talking negatively about them to the kids
- [00:27:30.300]or others, how might they be able to navigate that kind of situation? I think in my experience,
- [00:27:36.100]both in working with couples and in working with co-parents and individuals who have grown up in
- [00:27:42.800]those environments, especially young adults or teenagers that are struggling, I think that this
- [00:27:47.960]is probably the most common struggle for kids growing up with parents who have divorced,
- [00:27:53.740]is the one parent, and I'll even extend it beyond just the parent talking,
- [00:28:00.280]of the other parent. It's sometimes that parent's family talking poorly of the other parent too,
- [00:28:06.340]and so even when it's not the parent, maybe it's the grandparents talking poorly of mom or dad.
- [00:28:12.740]That puts kids in such a tough spot. I think that's probably one of the most common struggles
- [00:28:18.340]that kids growing up in this context face, is parents talking poorly of the other parent,
- [00:28:24.000]and I think that the irony of that is the solution is just self-discipline. It's just control
- [00:28:30.260]in yourself not to say things when that knee-jerk reaction to say a disparaging remark about their
- [00:28:36.360]parent, when it hits, you don't have to say everything that comes to mind, right? And so
- [00:28:41.880]it's controlling. And if it's family members, it's telling them, we don't need to have that
- [00:28:46.180]conversation here. My kids don't need to be a part of this conversation. We can have it
- [00:28:50.360]somewhere else. And so I think it's shutting down kind of disparaging comments. It's interesting.
- [00:28:56.160]I've worked with people who say, well, if I don't point out the negative thing
- [00:29:00.240]of their mom or dad, then all the negative things that the other parent says is all they're going
- [00:29:06.040]to know and they're going to hate me. And the irony is that it's really difficult to convince
- [00:29:13.200]children that a parent that they experience as loving is a terrible person. And so most of the
- [00:29:20.800]time who loses when they bash the other parent is whoever's doing the bashing.
- [00:29:26.120]Whoever's saying the negative things, it isn't that they convince,
- [00:29:30.220]the kids to believe the negative things. It's that the kids grow really resentful
- [00:29:34.760]of the parent who's saying the negative things. And I think that that's an interesting thing too,
- [00:29:40.440]because it's really, you do this at your own peril. You trash the other parent at your own
- [00:29:45.820]peril because you're not convincing the kids to dislike the other parent. You're convincing the
- [00:29:50.520]kids to dislike you. And so it has the exact opposite. So it's really about self-discipline.
- [00:29:55.920]It's about just because you think it, don't say it. And just because you want them to
- [00:30:00.200]see this characteristic of their parent, if it's necessary for them to see it, and I'm
- [00:30:05.640]not talking safety things here. I'm just talking general personality traits, characteristics
- [00:30:10.120]that you don't like in the other person. If you want them to see it, life will teach it
- [00:30:14.140]to them. They'll learn to see it. You pointing it out isn't going to help.
- [00:30:19.060]Yeah. I mean, it makes sense when you explain it that way. I just never had thought about
- [00:30:23.580]it that way before. So it's really just setting yourself as a positive example, as a positive
- [00:30:29.620]role model.
- [00:30:30.180]Yeah.
- [00:30:30.700]And doing what you can to be a supportive and loving parent. And then they're going
- [00:30:34.600]to see that over time. And the other parent won't be able to turn them away from you if
- [00:30:39.660]they're talking negatively about you.
- [00:30:41.620]Yeah.
- [00:30:42.080]Yeah.
- [00:30:42.780]Yeah.
- [00:30:43.140]And I think it also makes logical sense because at the point of divorce, your credibility
- [00:30:50.440]as it pertains to perception of the other person is done. Because if you still thought
- [00:30:56.160]that they were a wonderful person, you'd still be married to them.
- [00:30:58.600]Right.
- [00:31:00.160]And so once a divorce takes place, it says you as the authority of the other person,
- [00:31:05.180]even kids know that that's not the case. Even kids know that you have hurt feelings
- [00:31:10.680]by them and you don't have to say it. They know that or the divorce wouldn't have taken
- [00:31:15.300]place.
- [00:31:15.740]Right.
- [00:31:16.280]And I know there's lots of reasons for divorce. I'm not oversimplifying it, but I'm just
- [00:31:19.780]saying like from a fundamental standpoint, you're not the best authority on their other
- [00:31:24.220]parent. And so they're going to make their decisions on what the other parent believes
- [00:31:29.880]and says.
- [00:31:30.140]Because of their own experience.
- [00:31:32.500]Yeah.
- [00:31:33.620]And the more you try to convince them that the other parent's a villain, the more you
- [00:31:37.220]convince them that you're acting like a villain. And that's what most kids take away from it.
- [00:31:41.800]Yeah. Now I'm curious, and I want to ask you kind of the flip side of that question. So
- [00:31:48.060]what if a child comes to you and expresses things that they're seeing in the other parent?
- [00:31:52.520]How do you, how do you handle that? How do you, do you validate what they're seeing or
- [00:31:57.860]do you try to steer away from it again?
- [00:32:00.120]And try to kind of remain neutral, which is, yeah, that's a good question.
- [00:32:04.560]I think it is really difficult. I think what you're trying to do in those moments is you're
- [00:32:09.300]trying to help the kiddo navigate whatever it is that they're experiencing. So let's say that
- [00:32:14.660]they come and tell you, dad yells a lot, mom yells a lot. And what you're trying to do in
- [00:32:19.060]that moment isn't to escalate that to, yeah, well, dad or mom is a villain. That's not the
- [00:32:25.900]goal in that moment. The goal in that moment is helping them navigate it. And so the goal is
- [00:32:30.100]well, what do you do when that happens? Do you go somewhere? You know, do you find a ways to
- [00:32:36.160]get away from it? Is there one of your siblings that's there too? I mean, so you're really
- [00:32:41.360]walking them through how do you navigate that moment, right? And again, this isn't when safety
- [00:32:46.920]is a concern because then there's different ways of escalating the conversation, right? But
- [00:32:50.820]not with the kiddo. There's different ways of escalating the concern if there's a concern for
- [00:33:00.080]behavior, complex circumstances, and how do they navigate the other adults in their life.
- [00:33:08.480]You're coaching them. You're not convincing them that the other person is a villain.
- [00:33:13.380]That's got to be hard.
- [00:33:15.060]Yes.
- [00:33:16.000]Especially if you have hard feelings towards the other spouse and-
- [00:33:20.980]Yeah. Especially if the reason they're coming to you is one of the reasons that you ended up
- [00:33:24.580]getting a divorce in the first place.
- [00:33:25.940]Right.
- [00:33:26.580]Super hard.
- [00:33:27.820]Yeah.
- [00:33:28.200]That's, again, self-awareness.
- [00:33:30.060]That's self-awareness.
- [00:33:30.160]That's self-awareness.
- [00:33:30.220]That's self-awareness allows self-control.
- [00:33:31.180]If you don't know that that's a hot button for you about the other person, you're going
- [00:33:35.940]to react in a reactive way that says, yes, they're terrible.
- [00:33:39.880]This is why we got a divorce.
- [00:33:41.140]Yeah.
- [00:33:41.660]And that isn't going to help the kiddo.
- [00:33:44.580]The kid needs skills.
- [00:33:45.680]They need coping strategies on how to navigate this.
- [00:33:48.500]And they might be coming to you because they saw you navigate that dynamic with their other
- [00:33:53.900]parent at some point in the past.
- [00:33:56.160]They might be telling you these things because they saw you deal with the other parent.
- [00:34:00.040]They might be yelling in a way that got you out of the yelling.
- [00:34:03.000]And they might be looking to say, can you help me get out of the yelling?
- [00:34:06.240]They need the skills.
- [00:34:08.320]And it's okay to validate, yeah, that's really hard.
- [00:34:11.100]I know it's really hard when they yell.
- [00:34:13.260]Let's talk about how you can deal with it.
- [00:34:15.340]And it also might be two hours later when you've regrouped and got yourself under control
- [00:34:21.380]and gone back to them and said, you brought this up.
- [00:34:24.260]We didn't talk much about what you can do about it.
- [00:34:26.960]Can we have that conversation now that we're more calm?
- [00:34:30.020]Yeah, I think that's important to give yourself time because maybe it still is like you're
- [00:34:34.760]really raw.
- [00:34:36.140]It's fresh and you still have those emotions that you're dealing with.
- [00:34:40.440]I think it's okay to give yourself time to come back down.
- [00:34:43.860]You're like, hey, I really want to discuss this with you.
- [00:34:46.740]We'll talk about it later and then come back with that really nice response that you had.
- [00:34:51.340]Yeah, so sometimes take a minute to regroup.
- [00:34:54.000]Yes, and then still make sure that you're taking care of yourself too, like maybe reaching
- [00:34:59.020]out to a friend.
- [00:35:00.000]Or a family member to kind of vent and share some of those feelings that you might have
- [00:35:04.840]because you don't have to go through some of those things alone.
- [00:35:07.540]And reaching out to the community that you might have to help support you through some
- [00:35:11.380]of that.
- [00:35:11.720]Absolutely.
- [00:35:12.320]And they can probably help remind you of the coping strategies that you use to deal with
- [00:35:17.060]that behavior too.
- [00:35:18.360]Yeah, it could be a really helpful brainstorming kind of conversation instead of just like
- [00:35:23.660]venting and bashing the other person.
- [00:35:25.980]You could turn it into a very positive and helpful thing.
- [00:35:29.980]And the purpose of that conversation shouldn't be bash the other person.
- [00:35:33.380]The purpose should be help me deescalate so I can be there for my kid the way I need to
- [00:35:38.900]be.
- [00:35:39.140]Very wise.
- [00:35:40.020]I feel like I should pay you for this listening or talking session.
- [00:35:45.020]I feel like I'm taking away big nuggets of wisdom to use in my own life.
- [00:35:49.120]Now I'd like to go to you, Dr. Hatton.
- [00:35:51.620]Let's talk about supporting children and how we can support children through transitions
- [00:35:56.140]that come with divorce and co-parenting.
- [00:35:58.680]There's a lot that happens.
- [00:35:59.960]You know, a child's rotating back and forth between two different households.
- [00:36:04.340]Yeah, I think what was really hard or can be really hard is having to take your belongings
- [00:36:09.560]from one house to another house.
- [00:36:12.020]So sometimes things can be forgotten, right?
- [00:36:14.300]Or that can be like emotionally exhausting sometimes.
- [00:36:17.360]It's like I have to pack another bag or I have to take these things or make sure I have
- [00:36:21.040]this.
- [00:36:21.400]So in some ways, I think maybe it's helping a child learn some adaptability and there's
- [00:36:29.520]ways.
- [00:36:29.940]I think you can support it so that it doesn't feel overwhelming and stressful.
- [00:36:33.500]I think one thing for sure is not if it possible, especially at younger ages, is like blaming
- [00:36:39.960]the child for, oh, you forgot this at the other parent's house when it's really important
- [00:36:44.260]to them.
- [00:36:44.660]Oh, I forgot something for school or whatever that I need for that week.
- [00:36:48.780]And so I think really being supportive of children like this is really hard.
- [00:36:52.220]And imagine going from one house to another house every week or even a few days a week
- [00:36:57.320]and then to another house.
- [00:36:58.420]And so having to take.
- [00:36:59.920]Those important things that you have with you, like your glasses or something like that.
- [00:37:03.100]And so the last thing you want to do is reprimand your child and say, why did you forget your
- [00:37:07.960]glasses?
- [00:37:08.260]You know, and just understand that sometimes we forget things because we're going from
- [00:37:14.080]one place to the next or one house to another house.
- [00:37:17.200]And so I think that can be something that you need to be supportive of and have some
- [00:37:21.140]understanding for the child for that.
- [00:37:23.500]I think something else that's been helpful and research supports this as well is having
- [00:37:28.960]some items.
- [00:37:29.900]That can be especially for like young kiddos, like when they're five, six, even now, I think
- [00:37:35.200]for our daughter is she likes to have a stuffed animal that she takes with her and it has
- [00:37:41.460]my voice recording in it.
- [00:37:42.900]And then she has one for her dad too.
- [00:37:44.360]So even when she's traveling, like she can just have her little stuffy and then hear
- [00:37:48.520]my voice anytime she wants to.
- [00:37:50.220]It's just something that's a comfort item that she has with her.
- [00:37:52.940]I think each of our spaces for her in the rooms are things that she can have like a
- [00:37:57.680]picture of him, of her dad, if you know.
- [00:37:59.880]In her room if she wants to.
- [00:38:00.820]And so just making some things be, I think, helpful and comforting in that way.
- [00:38:04.740]And then I think having some, making sure that there is that space that they feel like
- [00:38:10.600]they can have that's their own when possible in both, you know, homes, I think is important.
- [00:38:16.000]So yeah, I think that just to know that children are having to adapt as well.
- [00:38:21.920]And so sometimes just having a little more patience, I think is important for kiddos.
- [00:38:26.640]Yeah.
- [00:38:27.840]Yeah.
- [00:38:28.300]Just recognizing the.
- [00:38:29.860]The amount of transitions they are going through and being empathetic towards them and understanding
- [00:38:34.340]and helping them through that.
- [00:38:36.120]Yeah.
- [00:38:36.380]One more thing I would add is that if possible, I think it always comes down to what supports
- [00:38:42.480]your child, right?
- [00:38:43.900]And feeling happy and safe and feeling supported.
- [00:38:48.400]Great advice.
- [00:38:49.560]Okay.
- [00:38:50.280]So to end our episode, I think I want to leave with people, the listeners with some resources
- [00:38:55.900]that they can reach out to if they are starting divorce.
- [00:38:59.840]They're navigating divorce and co-parenting.
- [00:39:02.120]What are some resources that UNL might have that are available to them if they're navigating
- [00:39:07.920]that or maybe just in Nebraska in general?
- [00:39:10.480]Some of the resources that I would point them to are going to be their local resources.
- [00:39:16.120]And so I think that everybody needs to sit down and think about what are the resources
- [00:39:19.800]around me.
- [00:39:20.400]And throughout the state, there's lots of different support groups where people get
- [00:39:24.760]together and talk about co-parenting and the struggles of it and they can support each
- [00:39:28.680]other.
- [00:39:29.820]Also, like the communities that they belong to, whether it's churches or whether it's
- [00:39:35.160]the school system or whether it's some kind of civic organization, there's all kinds of
- [00:39:40.300]resources.
- [00:39:40.720]I think the University has this network of Extension Educators throughout the state that
- [00:39:46.800]every county you're in has an Extension Educator.
- [00:39:50.080]They are such great resources for what's going on locally and where to get that.
- [00:39:56.220]And so I think that's one of the best places to start.
- [00:39:59.800]I think in Lincoln, there's a lot of different resources.
- [00:40:02.700]The university has a number of different resources about co-parenting and education about co-parenting.
- [00:40:10.480]I think other resources is talking to therapists, talking to life coaches.
- [00:40:15.140]And don't underestimate the power of talking to somebody who's already been there and done that
- [00:40:20.560]and who you see navigating it effectively.
- [00:40:22.640]I heard somebody say that you need to find people that you can talk through your crazy with.
- [00:40:27.680]And I think that's a great example.
- [00:40:29.780]Like, is it somebody you can tell, I think I'm doing this and they can say, no, that is a terrible idea.
- [00:40:35.780]And so somebody that you can just share your ideas and they can give you feedback and in a mentoring kind of way.
- [00:40:42.880]I don't know.
- [00:40:44.060]What would you recommend resource wise?
- [00:40:45.840]Speaking of Extension, Nebraska Extension, our early childhood team is running the Co-parenting for Successful Kids program to help people who are navigating co-parenting.
- [00:40:55.280]I think, like you said, reaching out to local resources also.
- [00:40:59.760]Don't be afraid of finding like online communities as well.
- [00:41:03.580]Those can also be particularly helpful if maybe it's hard logistically to make it to when groups are meeting in person locally.
- [00:41:11.520]That's a good idea.
- [00:41:12.440]Yeah, I think.
- [00:41:13.300]And also thinking about yourself and reflecting on what you may need or what you may prefer as an individual.
- [00:41:19.460]Some people don't thrive in group settings.
- [00:41:22.140]They might not thrive on in in therapy settings.
- [00:41:25.960]So just thinking about what is helpful for you as an individual and what.
- [00:41:29.760]You need maybe the most.
- [00:41:31.280]But I think just to keep in your head, like reach out, reach out, reach out and find that community.
- [00:41:38.040]Don't isolate yourself.
- [00:41:39.460]You don't have to go through this alone.
- [00:41:41.240]There are people who are going to surround you and help you.
- [00:41:44.660]And you'll you'll find that.
- [00:41:46.500]Yeah, that's a really good point.
- [00:41:48.200]I think the challenge is oftentimes like I know that this would help me, but it's hard to get it started.
- [00:41:54.140]Yeah.
- [00:41:54.680]One way to do that is to confide in a close friend or a family member that says,
- [00:41:59.720]I know this would help me, but it's hard to reach out.
- [00:42:03.560]Or I know there's this person that I have a lot of faith in and I see them navigating this and doing an excellent job.
- [00:42:11.560]I'd really like to talk to him about it, but I'm embarrassed to ask.
- [00:42:14.520]If you can talk to a family member, a close friend, they can say, I'll be your accountability partner here.
- [00:42:20.340]You need to contact them.
- [00:42:21.980]You need to ask or you need to reach out.
- [00:42:23.600]You need to set unemployment up or whatever it is.
- [00:42:25.660]So have somebody that's close to you help with the career.
- [00:42:29.700]And have the courage to take the first step for that resource.
- [00:42:31.880]Because that's the hardest.
- [00:42:32.820]It's the hardest to take the first step.
- [00:42:34.640]Yeah.
- [00:42:35.000]Well, thank you so much for all the ideas and the advice that you shared with us today.
- [00:42:39.880]Like I said, I personally found it very helpful and insightful.
- [00:42:43.420]So thank you for that on a personal level.
- [00:42:45.700]But I think our listeners will also find it really helpful as well.
- [00:42:48.880]So thanks for joining us.
- [00:42:49.980]Yeah.
- [00:42:50.360]Thank you.
- [00:42:50.960]And thanks for the invite, Emily.
- [00:42:52.540]Absolutely.
- [00:42:53.120]It's been a nice conversation.
- [00:42:53.960]Good luck, all of you parents.
- [00:42:55.860]You can figure out how to do this.
- [00:42:57.880]Your kids are the most important.
- [00:42:59.680]thing in your life.
- [00:43:00.540]I know that.
- [00:43:01.100]Or you wouldn't be listening to this.
- [00:43:02.460]It's valuable to figure out how to navigate co-parenting.
- [00:43:06.080]And I know it's hard.
- [00:43:07.100]But there are ways.
- [00:43:08.840]So keep working at it.
- [00:43:10.640]You're going to do great.
- [00:43:12.080]Next up, I ask a young Nebraskan what they love most about their mom and dad.
- [00:43:18.300]What do you love the most about your mom?
- [00:43:20.640]I love her a lot.
- [00:43:24.160]You love her a lot?
- [00:43:25.620]Yeah.
- [00:43:26.060]What do you love most about her?
- [00:43:29.660]I love her most.
- [00:43:30.940]You love her most?
- [00:43:32.420]What about dad?
- [00:43:33.440]What do you love most about dad?
- [00:43:34.580]I love her.
- [00:43:36.140]I love him the most and a lot.
- [00:43:39.960]This has been another episode of The Good Life in Early Life, a Nebraska Extension early
- [00:43:47.120]childhood production with your host, Emily Manning.
- [00:43:49.540]For more information on early childhood, check out our website at child.unl.edu.
- [00:43:54.620]If you like the show, subscribe and tell your friends to listen.
- [00:43:57.660]The show production team is Emily.
- [00:43:59.640]Dr. Holly Hatton, Erin Kampbell, Ingrid Lindal, Linda Reddish,
- [00:44:04.520]Kim Wellsandt, LaDonna Worth, and Katie Krause.
- [00:44:07.180]See you next time and thanks for listening.
- [00:44:09.600]Bye-bye.
- [00:44:10.340]- Bye.
- [00:44:11.180]you
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