S2E11: More Than a Playground: The Power of Nature w. Dr. Torquati
Nebraska Extension Early Childhood Program Area-Emily Manning, Dr. Holly Hatton, Ingrid Lindal, Erin Kampbell, Linda Reddish, Katie Krause, and LaDonna Werth
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03/18/2025
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In this episode of The Good Life in the Early Life, Emily Manning interviews Dr. Julia Torquati, a professor in the Department of Child, Youth, and Family Studies with 25 years of expertise in child development, childcare, and nature-based environmental education. Dr. Torquati discusses how research has shown that time spent in nature can significantly improve children's performance on assessments of spatial working memory and attention. She also highlights the numerous benefits of nature, including increased pro-social skills. Dr. Torquati shares practical ideas for how adults can incorporate nature into everyday activities to support children's development.
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- [00:00:00.000]This is The Good Life in Early Life, a production of Nebraska Extension.
- [00:00:10.920]I'm your host, Emily Manning, an Early Childhood Extension Educator based in Seward County.
- [00:00:15.760]Today, we are going to be discussing how nature can support children's development.
- [00:00:19.620]And to help us dive into this topic, I have with me Dr. Julia Torquati.
- [00:00:23.940]She is a professor in the Department of Child, Youth and Family Studies
- [00:00:27.780]and the Buffett Early Childhood Institute Community Chair in Infant Mental Health.
- [00:00:32.180]Her research and teaching focuses on how experiences in natural environments support
- [00:00:37.320]children's development and how relationships with significant adults influence children's
- [00:00:42.580]development. Welcome to the show, Dr. Julia Torquati.
- [00:00:45.880]Thank you for having me.
- [00:00:47.900]We're so excited to have you and to have you share your experience with us on the podcast.
- [00:00:52.420]And since we're talking about outdoor learning and nature, I wanted to start off with a fun
- [00:00:56.680]question, which is,
- [00:00:57.760]do you have a favorite memory of being outside as a kid?
- [00:01:00.920]That is a great question, Emily, and it would be really hard for me to choose just one because
- [00:01:06.960]I was fortunate enough to have parents who encouraged us and provided lots of opportunity
- [00:01:12.880]for my siblings and I to be outdoors.
- [00:01:15.140]The experience I want to share with you today is a winter experience.
- [00:01:19.620]So I grew up in Minnesota, and I remember a night after supper when I bundled up and
- [00:01:24.740]went out in the backyard and it was snowing.
- [00:01:26.860]And I laid down in the snow and I could feel the snowflakes on my face and I could hear
- [00:01:32.980]them sifting down in the snow.
- [00:01:35.900]And just the peace and the fascination and the vastness of being able to see and feel
- [00:01:43.900]snowflakes coming down on my face and hear them landing in the snow was amazing and lasts
- [00:01:50.600]with me to this day.
- [00:01:52.020]Yeah.
- [00:01:53.120]And I'm going to kind of piggyback off of that.
- [00:01:56.100]And.
- [00:01:56.460]I grew up on an acreage here in Nebraska, kind of outside of Lincoln.
- [00:02:00.400]And one of my favorite things to do after the snow melted or when we had like a heavy
- [00:02:06.020]rain was to go and find all the ravines and the gullies and the ditches and watch the
- [00:02:11.420]water run through these ravines.
- [00:02:13.820]And I loved the sound of the rushing water and the moving water and just the smell, too,
- [00:02:20.900]of the fresh water.
- [00:02:22.000]And especially like in March, you know, when spring's coming around.
- [00:02:26.540]Everything just feels kind of alive and on the precipice of energy.
- [00:02:30.080]So that's kind of one of my favorite memories.
- [00:02:32.800]I love that you shared that memory because the water flowing is powerful and the smell
- [00:02:39.580]of snowmelt is different than other water smells.
- [00:02:42.200]That's true.
- [00:02:43.100]It's very specific.
- [00:02:44.020]That sensory piece is so important.
- [00:02:46.640]Yeah, I think you have some information maybe behind why that's important.
- [00:02:51.820]Well, experiences with nature are multisensory.
- [00:02:55.500]So we, as adults, we rely so much, or at least we think we rely so much on our visual sense.
- [00:03:00.940]But for young children and really children of all ages, it's so important to have that
- [00:03:05.760]immersive experience, the smells, the touch, the visual, certainly, but the sounds, everything.
- [00:03:12.620]It's the whole experience that children don't get from a lot of the things that they do.
- [00:03:18.000]So if we think about screens, that's two-dimensional.
- [00:03:20.660]It's visual.
- [00:03:21.380]It's auditory.
- [00:03:22.480]It's very limited.
- [00:03:23.740]It's a tiny slice.
- [00:03:25.300]of what we're capable of experiencing in the world.
- [00:03:27.940]And that full sensory experience is so important for them to have.
- [00:03:32.020]And so that's a really nice segue into my first question, which is,
- [00:03:36.420]what kinds of experiences in nature can help support children's development?
- [00:03:40.220]And so we're just starting off right off the bat saying it's having those multi-sensory
- [00:03:45.460]experiences and engaging in our full abilities as a human.
- [00:03:49.800]But I'd love for you to expand a little bit more on that.
- [00:03:52.360]That's right.
- [00:03:53.740]The full capabilities.
- [00:03:55.240]And fully experiencing the world.
- [00:03:57.940]And as adults, too often, I think, we think about how is this experience good for this
- [00:04:05.600]child as a future adult?
- [00:04:06.800]And I really want to emphasize the importance of centering on child and childhood.
- [00:04:13.740]What should a good childhood be like?
- [00:04:16.040]Because it's a good childhood that sets children up to be healthy adults.
- [00:04:21.020]And a good childhood should be filled with
- [00:04:24.740]mystery and magic and wonder.
- [00:04:28.580]And being in nature provides them with opportunities for all of that.
- [00:04:32.980]Because the world is mysterious and wondrous.
- [00:04:36.340]And being in nature provokes questions.
- [00:04:40.060]It provokes those curiosities and wonderings that children have about the world.
- [00:04:45.960]So it really engages them and gives them an opportunity to learn about
- [00:04:50.440]and appreciate the world that we live in and the beauty of it.
- [00:04:54.240]All kinds of beauty, whether it's the sounds or the smells,
- [00:04:57.500]you know, the sensory piece that we were just talking about connects them to that beauty
- [00:05:02.160]and is a way that they can always return to seeking out
- [00:05:06.980]and understanding that appreciation for beauty in the world.
- [00:05:10.060]And so for children, being in nature opens up that magic.
- [00:05:15.260]And also for them is a way to play.
- [00:05:18.080]It's all about that play.
- [00:05:20.080]And it's open-ended so they can find places
- [00:05:23.740]that for them are magical, for them are wondrous,
- [00:05:28.180]and just immerse themselves in it.
- [00:05:30.740]And for children, time is different than it is for an adult.
- [00:05:34.500]And so to find a natural space
- [00:05:37.340]and to slip away into their own world
- [00:05:40.720]can be an eternity in a matter of minutes.
- [00:05:44.080]And that is magical.
- [00:05:45.820]And there aren't a lot of other places and ways that kids can do that.
- [00:05:50.680]Nature is unique in that way, I think,
- [00:05:53.240]that fully immersive experience.
- [00:05:54.980]I would agree with that.
- [00:05:57.700]And there's something going on, I think,
- [00:06:01.440]when we engage in nature
- [00:06:02.940]that engages our creativity
- [00:06:06.280]and enables us to do that mentally.
- [00:06:09.140]And I think as adults, too,
- [00:06:11.120]when we experience nature,
- [00:06:13.760]we experience those restorative.
- [00:06:16.080]And I'm struggling to put a word into what I'm thinking
- [00:06:21.100]because it's kind of a complicated feeling.
- [00:06:23.100]And maybe you can help me out with that.
- [00:06:25.600]But yeah, it's that creativity.
- [00:06:28.060]It's feeling the essence of who you are and rejuvenated.
- [00:06:31.340]Oh my goodness, yes.
- [00:06:33.520]Let's follow that restorative thread.
- [00:06:35.480]Okay, yeah, let's go.
- [00:06:36.860]So, yes.
- [00:06:38.240]So research shows us all of the ways
- [00:06:40.400]that nature is restorative to us
- [00:06:42.380]physiologically, cognitively, so mentally.
- [00:06:44.820]You know, the clearing of the head.
- [00:06:46.740]Lowering of stress.
- [00:06:49.140]So using physiological measures,
- [00:06:51.260]using self-report measures,
- [00:06:53.060]using really every methodology that's been used.
- [00:06:55.520]The evidence is clear that being in nature is restorative.
- [00:06:58.200]And then to think about why that finding yourself.
- [00:07:03.300]And I love that you use that term
- [00:07:05.340]because while it's restorative,
- [00:07:08.300]it clears away all of the chatter.
- [00:07:10.260]We all have the list running through our head, right?
- [00:07:13.300]Constantly what happened, what's going to happen,
- [00:07:14.920]what's coming next, what we have to do.
- [00:07:16.080]Nature allows us to let go of that and be in the moment,
- [00:07:20.040]be more fully present in the moment.
- [00:07:23.020]And then being fully present,
- [00:07:25.100]we're better able to find ourselves.
- [00:07:27.460]And when people talk about centering,
- [00:07:29.820]it's reconnecting with yourself, your purpose, your why,
- [00:07:35.020]and that stillness.
- [00:07:37.380]And another part of that, I think,
- [00:07:40.260]is that it's both calming and engaging at the same time.
- [00:07:46.000]We can feel peace,
- [00:07:47.980]but we also can feel, again, that curiosity and connection.
- [00:07:52.980]And so it's both peaceful and energizing for us.
- [00:07:58.720]That really speaks to me on a personal level.
- [00:08:01.580]I've had some times in my life that have been difficult.
- [00:08:07.260]My mom passed away.
- [00:08:08.640]It'll be four years this year.
- [00:08:11.500]And the thing that I found the most healing
- [00:08:14.800]was going on walks every day.
- [00:08:16.940]And that was one of the most healing things for me.
- [00:08:20.280]And hearing you talk about some of the stuff,
- [00:08:22.940]makes sense and validates that experience.
- [00:08:25.780]I think you also might have done
- [00:08:28.400]some really neat research on this
- [00:08:30.400]with children and cognitive restoration.
- [00:08:33.640]Yes.
- [00:08:34.540]Do you want to describe some of that research?
- [00:08:36.520]Because I think it's really neat what you've done.
- [00:08:38.700]Sure.
- [00:08:39.780]A couple of the studies that I've done
- [00:08:42.340]with my colleague, Ann Shetty,
- [00:08:43.900]in the Department of Psychology,
- [00:08:45.060]we used experimental design,
- [00:08:47.260]which is important mainly because it gives us
- [00:08:51.260]what we call strong inference.
- [00:08:52.900]We can eliminate other possibilities for our findings.
- [00:08:55.200]And so in the first study,
- [00:08:57.440]we took preschool and early elementary age children
- [00:09:01.340]for a walk in a natural area around campus
- [00:09:04.760]and in what we call an urban area.
- [00:09:07.000]So where there's traffic, there's, you know,
- [00:09:08.800]buildings, streets, not a lot of greenery.
- [00:09:10.820]And we found that after the nature walk,
- [00:09:14.760]children were performing better on assessments
- [00:09:18.120]of spatial working memory and attention.
- [00:09:22.860]Lots of people have found improvements in attention.
- [00:09:25.660]And attentional functioning is so central.
- [00:09:28.460]For children to be able to function
- [00:09:30.160]in academic settings is obvious.
- [00:09:32.220]But attention is important for social interactions too.
- [00:09:36.200]We're more effective when we are attending to
- [00:09:40.060]and noticing, for example, people's facial expressions
- [00:09:42.940]and we're understanding their communication better.
- [00:09:45.640]And interestingly, there's research other people have done
- [00:09:49.960]where children are more pro-social in natural environments
- [00:09:52.820]Oh, really?
- [00:09:53.840]Yeah, they are kinder, more helpful, more empathic
- [00:09:57.820]when they're playing in natural environments.
- [00:10:00.320]Even among school-aged children,
- [00:10:02.700]their play tends to be more egalitarian
- [00:10:05.800]and less hierarchical in natural settings.
- [00:10:08.240]So if we think about what happens, for example,
- [00:10:12.380]if you have a traditional playground,
- [00:10:13.860]you have a climbing structure, you have a four-square at school,
- [00:10:16.720]you have a basketball court, you have a soccer field,
- [00:10:19.720]the kids who are already,
- [00:10:22.780]sort of leaders in sports and physical activity
- [00:10:26.460]take over those spaces.
- [00:10:27.460]And everybody else hangs out.
- [00:10:30.000]Whereas if you put them in a natural space,
- [00:10:34.400]that hierarchy disappears.
- [00:10:36.140]And you have a different type of social interaction happening.
- [00:10:40.840]Children who maybe aren't ordinarily leaders
- [00:10:43.720]begin to take more of a leadership role.
- [00:10:47.100]And so it becomes more egalitarian
- [00:10:49.800]because nature doesn't,
- [00:10:52.740]structure itself for that kind of hierarchical play.
- [00:10:55.860]Anything's possible.
- [00:10:56.920]It's open-ended.
- [00:10:57.700]Yeah.
- [00:10:58.380]And so anything can happen.
- [00:10:59.700]Yeah.
- [00:11:00.400]Huh.
- [00:11:01.200]Wow.
- [00:11:01.880]That's fascinating.
- [00:11:03.520]I hadn't heard that research before.
- [00:11:05.300]Just as a basic overview,
- [00:11:08.240]when you're saying children playing in these natural spaces,
- [00:11:12.300]what does that look like compared to like
- [00:11:15.760]our typical outdoor environment
- [00:11:18.260]with the basketball courts and the four square spaces?
- [00:11:21.420]How does that look?
- [00:11:22.700]Is it different?
- [00:11:22.860]Sure.
- [00:11:23.760]So a couple of the features,
- [00:11:25.480]if you think about having lots of natural features
- [00:11:28.040]in a play space,
- [00:11:29.160]that could mean more vegetation, more trees, more shrubs,
- [00:11:33.420]more variability in the topography,
- [00:11:37.820]so some hills and things,
- [00:11:39.360]so not just a flat space
- [00:11:41.040]that invites children to play
- [00:11:44.100]in a whole variety of different ways.
- [00:11:46.000]And so if you have shrubbery, you can have forts.
- [00:11:48.940]You can have what?
- [00:11:52.660]Um, researchers and landscape architects call a refuge,
- [00:11:56.340]so a place where kids can hide and they can see out,
- [00:11:59.080]but others might not be able to see it.
- [00:12:01.280]That provides sort of a sense of security.
- [00:12:03.420]Spaces that kids can explore and build.
- [00:12:07.260]And so if we think about having
- [00:12:10.060]what people call loose parts,
- [00:12:11.260]you have branches and rocks
- [00:12:13.500]and other kinds of things that you can lean
- [00:12:16.480]or put into a tree to make a fort.
- [00:12:18.540]It invites all kinds of imaginary play,
- [00:12:21.360]whether that's a castle or a house
- [00:12:22.620]or a pirate ship.
- [00:12:23.940]It can be anything.
- [00:12:24.720]It's completely open-ended.
- [00:12:26.340]Children can pretend anywhere.
- [00:12:28.960]They can engage in imaginary play anywhere.
- [00:12:30.920]But natural environments are especially rich
- [00:12:34.480]in their opportunities for that.
- [00:12:36.580]Even the uneven ground
- [00:12:39.240]invites a different kind of play, too.
- [00:12:41.580]You're not just running on a flat surface.
- [00:12:43.740]It becomes something different.
- [00:12:45.200]It can be waves.
- [00:12:46.100]It can be clouds.
- [00:12:46.960]And children who play on uneven ground
- [00:12:51.240]actually have a lot of fun.
- [00:12:52.580]Fewer physical injuries.
- [00:12:53.520]So sometimes people are concerned about safety.
- [00:12:55.840]Of course we're concerned about safety.
- [00:12:57.560]But children who experience more climbing
- [00:13:01.960]and walking on uneven ground
- [00:13:04.440]and scaling on tree trunks and those kinds of things
- [00:13:07.240]fall less and get injured less.
- [00:13:09.560]And it makes sense.
- [00:13:10.360]It's not just balance.
- [00:13:11.300]It's not just that they have better motor skill,
- [00:13:13.880]which we've found in research.
- [00:13:15.800]It's their vestibular development.
- [00:13:18.120]They have to know where they are in space.
- [00:13:20.080]And their ability to...
- [00:13:22.540]To sense that and know
- [00:13:24.360]and correct as needed automatically
- [00:13:26.720]is a skill that
- [00:13:28.660]developed early in life is going to serve them
- [00:13:30.740]well to have
- [00:13:32.900]that sense of where they are
- [00:13:35.020]in space and to be
- [00:13:36.960]safer, actually.
- [00:13:38.300]But natural play areas just have
- [00:13:40.680]more natural elements. And it doesn't mean
- [00:13:42.820]that there's no built elements.
- [00:13:44.340]They can have a climbing structure. They can have a sandbox
- [00:13:46.860]and a water feature and those
- [00:13:48.780]kinds of things. But to
- [00:13:50.720]have some trees and even
- [00:13:52.500]here in Nebraska, prairie grass, tall
- [00:13:54.780]prairie grass can
- [00:13:56.660]take children into a different world.
- [00:13:58.540]Just imagining Ruth Staples
- [00:14:00.780]in their outdoor environment.
- [00:14:03.120]If you ever had the opportunity to go there,
- [00:14:04.960]it's a really neat place.
- [00:14:06.360]I was also kind of laughing to myself when
- [00:14:08.740]you were bringing up prairie grass because I grew up
- [00:14:10.700]on an acreage and we had,
- [00:14:12.320]it was a CRP. Conservation
- [00:14:14.400]Reserve Program. Thank you.
- [00:14:16.280]Thank you. So it had natural
- [00:14:18.480]prairie grass and I remember
- [00:14:20.480]following my parents into the
- [00:14:22.460]prairie grass and becoming terrified
- [00:14:24.500]because I could no longer have
- [00:14:26.440]a line of sight with them and that was a
- [00:14:28.460]very scary experience but you know, you
- [00:14:30.440]just do like call and response and then they're like
- [00:14:32.500]yeah, I'm right here and then it's okay
- [00:14:34.420]but I was just remembering
- [00:14:36.340]like yeah, it doesn't take much grass for you
- [00:14:38.580]as a kid to not see anymore.
- [00:14:40.220]Another question that I had for you
- [00:14:42.480]and I think we've kind of been discussing it
- [00:14:44.300]throughout this conversation already is
- [00:14:46.060]what does it mean for children to have a connection
- [00:14:48.520]to nature?
- [00:14:49.460]It is a sense of
- [00:14:52.420]belonging. It's a sense
- [00:14:54.680]that I am here and I belong
- [00:14:56.440]here and that
- [00:14:58.340]I'm a part of something larger than
- [00:15:00.180]myself. I'm part of nature
- [00:15:02.040]and nature is really part of me.
- [00:15:04.400]That can happen in
- [00:15:06.380]a lot of different ways. It can happen through
- [00:15:08.240]their fascination with specific things.
- [00:15:10.220]So you mentioned
- [00:15:12.140]Ruth Staples and
- [00:15:13.280]the children there and I think a lot of children
- [00:15:16.380]understand roly-polies.
- [00:15:17.980]They know where to find them
- [00:15:19.480]so they'll look under leaf litter.
- [00:15:22.380]And pick them up and hold them gently in their hands.
- [00:15:24.540]And interacting with
- [00:15:26.440]living things in a very simple way
- [00:15:28.760]is an
- [00:15:30.460]amazing entry point for them
- [00:15:32.140]because
- [00:15:33.480]they begin to understand
- [00:15:36.400]that other living things
- [00:15:38.120]are similar to them but also different.
- [00:15:40.200]They're alive and they're animals
- [00:15:42.280]but they eat different things
- [00:15:44.140]and they live in a different place
- [00:15:45.480]but at the same time
- [00:15:47.540]you can share with them
- [00:15:50.060]this space and
- [00:15:52.340]having that connection and that
- [00:15:54.440]understanding that we
- [00:15:56.220]are all part of the same
- [00:15:58.240]world. It's the foundation for
- [00:16:00.120]understanding that we all have
- [00:16:02.300]a place here. We all
- [00:16:04.340]have a role to play. So when they start
- [00:16:06.400]to see that the earthworms
- [00:16:08.340]have their
- [00:16:10.460]home in the soil and they
- [00:16:12.380]have different needs but they
- [00:16:14.480]also are similar to
- [00:16:16.560]us and
- [00:16:18.200]that they help the soil
- [00:16:20.500]they help the plants.
- [00:16:22.300]And then the plants also provide
- [00:16:24.360]a home for them. Or when you're talking about
- [00:16:26.460]the prairie grass, some of these
- [00:16:28.280]native species are
- [00:16:30.380]a great way to provide
- [00:16:32.600]opportunities for children to
- [00:16:34.360]see the interdependence in the natural world
- [00:16:36.420]because if you have a native species you're going to
- [00:16:38.420]have insects. If you have insects you're going to have birds.
- [00:16:40.640]If you have birds you're going to have
- [00:16:42.660]other things coming in. You're going to have
- [00:16:44.400]rabbits and then they
- [00:16:46.320]see how everything is interconnected
- [00:16:48.220]and that interconnectedness
- [00:16:49.840]includes them. And
- [00:16:52.260]I'm a part of this and I belong here
- [00:16:54.480]is so important because
- [00:16:56.300]it then is part of their identity.
- [00:16:57.880]I belong here. I'm part of this world.
- [00:17:00.020]And that's
- [00:17:02.220]a sense of security for
- [00:17:04.320]the child in themselves
- [00:17:05.600]that I have a place
- [00:17:07.600]and this place is mine.
- [00:17:09.340]And it brings with it that
- [00:17:12.240]sense of home too.
- [00:17:13.540]And how is that beneficial for
- [00:17:16.220]kiddos to have that sense of security? What does
- [00:17:18.160]it help with? You know, it's
- [00:17:20.180]a groundedness. It's
- [00:17:22.220]part of their early development of self
- [00:17:24.140]concept. Who am
- [00:17:26.280]I and where do I belong? I mean,
- [00:17:28.060]they're big questions
- [00:17:29.180]and they can be complex questions
- [00:17:32.000]but then again, they can be really simple. I belong
- [00:17:34.020]here. I belong in this place. I belong
- [00:17:36.260]in my family. I
- [00:17:38.180]belong in this world.
- [00:17:39.180]And ultimately
- [00:17:42.060]the goodness of that too.
- [00:17:43.420]You know, I am a good person. I can do good things.
- [00:17:46.420]That's powerful.
- [00:17:48.040]Very, very powerful.
- [00:17:49.940]Yeah. Yeah, these inner
- [00:17:52.180]actions too with other living things is the
- [00:17:54.180]foundation of empathy as well.
- [00:17:55.680]Empathy with non-human
- [00:17:58.480]creatures and empathy with humans
- [00:18:00.300]are correlated in
- [00:18:02.180]research. We do know that. And so
- [00:18:04.340]understanding that you need to be gentle with the
- [00:18:06.240]roly-poly translates to
- [00:18:08.140]being gentle with your friend. So
- [00:18:09.960]explain that connection a little bit more. I think I'm
- [00:18:12.280]understanding it, but how does
- [00:18:14.160]a roly-poly being kind to a roly-poly
- [00:18:16.100]connect to being kind to their friend?
- [00:18:18.420]Well, so
- [00:18:20.140]the roly-poly responds to being picked up
- [00:18:22.140]by rolling into a ball.
- [00:18:23.280]And when the child
- [00:18:26.180]begins to understand that that's how
- [00:18:27.760]it protects itself, they begin to understand that the roly-poly has different perceptions than they
- [00:18:34.460]do. They know they're not going to hurt it, but the roly-poly doesn't know it's not going to be
- [00:18:39.320]hurt. And only when they hold still does it unroll and start to crawl across their hand.
- [00:18:44.320]And the same thing, you know, children love birds. They'd love to approach a bird.
- [00:18:49.600]Why does the bird fly away when I get close? Well, the bird thinks you might hurt it. It has
- [00:18:54.080]to protect itself. Well, I'm not going to hurt it. It knows that, right? No, it doesn't know that.
- [00:18:58.580]It has a whole different perception. And so that is a really powerful entry point to understanding
- [00:19:05.560]that your friends have different perceptions and needs too. And so you need to understand
- [00:19:10.940]how your friend is thinking and feeling in order to be able to interact with them in that same kind
- [00:19:17.440]of sensitive way. I'm going to be gentle. I'm going to be careful. I'm going to pay attention
- [00:19:23.260]to what you're telling me through flying away or rolling up. I'm going to pay attention to what you
- [00:19:28.900]need and respond accordingly. Because I want to have this interaction with you. Right. I'm
- [00:19:34.960]motivated. I want you to crawl across my hand. So I'm going to adjust so that you feel comfortable
- [00:19:40.800]and safe to do that. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really introducing them to taking the
- [00:19:46.100]perspective of someone else. Yes. And doing that with a creature that is non-human is actually,
- [00:19:52.640]I think, even more challenging because they're completely different species. That's right.
- [00:19:58.460]I really am a person who enjoys the outdoors and I grew up that way, being very comfortable
- [00:20:06.240]being in nature and being outside. But if there are other adults who are not comfortable being
- [00:20:12.380]outdoors, maybe it's too hot, too cold, there's too many bugs, which I totally get. Mosquitoes
- [00:20:22.020]experiences for my child or children in my class or program. That's a really important question
- [00:20:28.980]because if adults didn't grow up with these experiences, they don't necessarily have that
- [00:20:34.720]same level of comfort and belonging in nature and maybe not even the same kind of enjoyment.
- [00:20:40.620]And so it's difficult to share that. If you've experienced it, you want to share it and you want
- [00:20:45.420]to share it all the time. And so if you're not comfortable with it, the first thing to think
- [00:20:51.400]how your behavior influences your children because they are paying attention to everything
- [00:20:58.060]you say and do. And so try your very hardest not to turn them off. And so one of the things that
- [00:21:06.920]I tell students is there's no ew in nature. Okay. There's no yuck. Don't say yuck.
- [00:21:12.360]We were working in an early head start and every time I showed up with a shovel,
- [00:21:17.280]the toddlers would come and hold their hands out because they knew there would be worms.
- [00:21:20.780]And there was one little boy who he wanted to hold the worm, but it took several weeks. He
- [00:21:26.880]didn't want to touch it. And then finally one afternoon he's holding the worm and he was
- [00:21:31.240]totally fascinated as his mom showed up and she shrieked and he dropped the worm.
- [00:21:34.880]Oh no. I mean, I get it. I get it.
- [00:21:38.600]Yeah. We didn't prep her for that.
- [00:21:40.760]And so know that what you do and what you're saying, how you react to the spider in the house
- [00:21:50.160]is really going to influence how they do. And so try to give them the opportunity to have a
- [00:21:55.840]positive perception of that, but then find something that you connect to. What do you,
- [00:22:02.620]what do you enjoy about being outdoors? And it doesn't have to be something that's big because
- [00:22:08.500]in some ways, many little doses of nature is more powerful to kids than like one big wilderness
- [00:22:14.220]trip. One big wilderness trip isn't the same as taking a 20 minute walk after supper every night.
- [00:22:20.040]No.
- [00:22:20.140]And seeing what's going on outdoors. What's happening in your neighborhood? What are the
- [00:22:23.780]squirrels doing? What birds are around and those kinds of things.
- [00:22:27.660]Are the daffodils coming up? Like what's happening? Are the buds on the trees yet?
- [00:22:31.580]Yeah, absolutely. What are the signs of spring? Let's go for a walk and look for signs of spring.
- [00:22:36.160]Right.
- [00:22:36.600]Or in the winter, and I know too cold, but winter is a perfect time for stargazing.
- [00:22:42.740]Oh yeah, it is.
- [00:22:45.080]It gets dark early.
- [00:22:46.480]Yeah.
- [00:22:47.320]You know, it doesn't have to be a 20 minute walk. Take a 10 minute
- [00:22:50.020]walk after supper and look at the sky. And no bugs out in the winter. You've got that plus.
- [00:22:57.540]And they will, they will just be in awe and fascination because we're very lucky in Nebraska.
- [00:23:04.520]Our skies are clear, very clear most of the time. We don't have a lot of light pollution.
- [00:23:08.760]We have pretty dry air. And you can clearly see constellations at six and seven o'clock
- [00:23:15.440]at night in the winter. And so pick what it is that,
- [00:23:19.900]you're comfortable with. Can you have breakfast outside? You know, it's a very simple thing,
- [00:23:24.500]but they'll be asking, they'll ask more and more to go and do those things.
- [00:23:28.160]And just spend a little time, often, if you're not comfortable taking big forays into the
- [00:23:34.320]wilderness. And it doesn't have to be. I will say that spending time in wild spaces
- [00:23:39.500]is powerful. And it is different, as you've described, Emily,
- [00:23:43.240]that that opportunity, and we have great opportunities here in Nebraska, we have great
- [00:23:49.780]parks, state parks, and we have lots of trails and, you know, really explore those and be
- [00:23:56.600]fascinated and model that fascination, model that, you know, appreciation of the beauty of the world.
- [00:24:03.880]And I got to tell you, my dad would, he would spit on agates to show us the grain in the rock.
- [00:24:11.020]He'd say, look at this beautiful green in this rock. And he'd spit on it and wipe it off because,
- [00:24:15.360]you know, when rocks are wet, they show their color. But he was always pointing out
- [00:24:19.660]the beauty. You know, look at these colors. Look at how iridescent this beetle is, you know,
- [00:24:26.180]and introducing different words to us, too, like that sort of thing. And so if you can encourage
- [00:24:32.380]your kids to find the beauty. And so my granddaughter, I pick her up from school
- [00:24:36.900]sometimes. And in the evening at this time of year, the sunsets come early and there's all
- [00:24:42.440]color in the sky. And I'll say, what colors are you seeing? And she'll talk about how it's so
- [00:24:46.980]beautiful. I see orange and I see purple.
- [00:24:49.540]And I see all of these colors. And so you can direct children's attention towards that beauty
- [00:24:56.140]on a regular basis. And again, whatever small doses those are, the frequency and use your daily
- [00:25:02.300]routines to do it, whether it's your drive home from school or having breakfast in the morning
- [00:25:07.680]outdoors or something like that. The birds are coming back. Open the window. Who do we hear?
- [00:25:13.220]Who's coming back to our neighborhood now? And just helping children to appreciate those everyday
- [00:25:19.420]wonders is very powerful. Yeah. It's almost like a scavenger hunt for beauty or just constantly
- [00:25:26.840]looking for beauty. If you're kind of competitive, maybe that's helpful. Who can find the most
- [00:25:31.880]beautiful things on our walk today? Yeah. But there is so many beautiful things all year round.
- [00:25:38.500]Yes. It could be the frost on the ground that is glittering in the morning sunshine, or
- [00:25:43.400]maybe there's fog in the fall that's creating this kind of mystical, mysterious
- [00:25:49.300]feeling in the air. Or in the winter, I think it's dogwood that gets like the red bark.
- [00:25:55.600]The red, yes. Yeah. Oh, it's gorgeous. It's so pretty. And kind of noticing how different
- [00:26:00.520]plants look in the winter, like coneflowers have that kind of spiky seeds to them. And
- [00:26:06.080]looking at the different textures in the winter and how that looks. And you kind of have to train
- [00:26:11.660]your eye for it. You're not going to maybe see that at first, but the more that you keep
- [00:26:15.780]looking for beauty, the more you're going to find that.
- [00:26:19.180]Yes.
- [00:26:19.340]And the more joy you're going to get from being in nature and being outside. So just keep looking
- [00:26:26.040]for it. One thing that I wanted to bring up, and I mentioned this to you before we started
- [00:26:31.760]recording, a theory that I've kind of been exposed to is place-based learning. And I think that
- [00:26:40.760]really ties into what you were talking about with, you know, we don't need to take this
- [00:26:44.580]wilderness trip. Like we don't need to get up and drive to Colorado to experience nature.
- [00:26:49.060]We can experience it right here, right where we live. And I was wondering if you could
- [00:26:54.800]talk more about place-based learning. I think place-based learning is important
- [00:26:59.800]because it does promote that sense of belonging we talked about earlier,
- [00:27:04.640]but it also reinforces the understanding that nature is right here. We don't have to go on
- [00:27:11.340]some exotic excursion to get there. And so really knowing our own place in depth,
- [00:27:18.940]is actually more powerful than knowing a lot of different places. I mean,
- [00:27:22.900]yes, go lots of different places if you can. But having a deep understanding of your own place,
- [00:27:30.060]and you know, we live in Nebraska, this is a prairie. What do we know about the prairie?
- [00:27:33.820]Is it helps to create that sense of belonging, that sense of connection that you asked about
- [00:27:38.820]earlier. You mentioned Ruth Staples, the child development lab earlier,
- [00:27:43.720]and in early childhood programs, different classes often have different names. And it might be
- [00:27:48.820]the pandas or the rainbow fish or something like that. That's all fine and good. But at Ruth Staples
- [00:27:54.300]right now, the two classes are the blue stems and the golden rods. And that's Nebraska.
- [00:27:59.580]And so the kids don't just say, I'm in the golden rod class. I am a golden rod.
- [00:28:05.180]And what does it mean to say, I am a golden rod? They can go out and see the golden rod.
- [00:28:10.540]They can go out and see the blue stem. It's there. And we're telling them that's part of you.
- [00:28:15.400]They had small family groups several years ago, and they
- [00:28:18.700]all were different trees, but they're trees that they could go out and see. I'm an ash tree. I'm
- [00:28:22.480]an oak tree. I'm a cottonwood tree. And so that's very real. It's very tangible. And they had those
- [00:28:30.240]symbols too, as part of their classroom, as part of their name tags. And so it becomes very real.
- [00:28:37.440]And it's a way to encourage children to connect to those things and to understand those things.
- [00:28:44.520]And as they get older, the concept
- [00:28:48.580]of environmental literacy becomes more important because it is literally the ability to read your
- [00:28:54.960]environment. And in order to be able to read your environment, you need to be connected to it in a
- [00:29:04.700]way that is very familiar. And so that in-depth understanding of your own place, your own
- [00:29:18.460]environment is really critical to that connection and encourages children then to broaden that as
- [00:29:24.140]they get older. But again, that sense of grounding, that sense of self and place is part of place-based
- [00:29:30.640]learning. And through place-based learning, kids can identify their own interests that they want to
- [00:29:37.460]pursue and learn more about and identify problems that they want to solve in their environment. And
- [00:29:43.400]I'm not here just talking about environmental problems, but, you know, understanding your own
- [00:29:48.340]place and how you can solve problems and use critical thinking in your place is, comes from
- [00:29:57.720]that. Place-based learning and using things that are in our environment to kind of label,
- [00:30:03.820]like our classrooms, like the blue stems and the golden rods really helps create that sense
- [00:30:08.480]of connection. It's really easy for them to identify with that golden rod when they can see
- [00:30:14.280]it in their environment, rather than a panda that is a world
- [00:30:18.220]away from them. And it's almost like an imaginary creature to them because it's not something that
- [00:30:23.200]they can see outside of the zoo really. And so, and
- [00:30:28.080]feeling a sense of pride. Yes. Like I, I matter
- [00:30:33.120]in this place and in this space. Yes. And I, and my connection to it
- [00:30:38.100]matters. And that's why when you talk about
- [00:30:43.440]seeing problems in the place that we live in and solving those
- [00:30:48.100]having that connection is important and reading that environment and reading what's
- [00:30:53.260]happening and having that depth of understanding about your place. It really
- [00:30:58.000]motivates you to solve problems because you have that connection to it. So
- [00:31:03.120]let's talk maybe a little bit about the kinds of problems that they might see
- [00:31:08.240]and think about solving when they have like
- [00:31:13.220]place-based learning. Yeah, that is, you're absolutely right. They
- [00:31:17.980]care about the place. They want to take care of the place. Right. And so
- [00:31:22.960]when they see things that they care about being harmed, they want to do something
- [00:31:28.260]about it. And it can even be more than just something
- [00:31:33.220]being harmed. They could really like something. Maybe they like how all the bees are around the flowers.
- [00:31:38.380]How do we make a space that's really friendly for bees? How do we
- [00:31:43.160]do that? And so then they would be motivated to learn what bees need
- [00:31:47.860]to survive and then kind of help adapt the environment. That's a great example.
- [00:31:53.120]And butterflies too. Right. Because if
- [00:31:58.000]they are understanding that butterflies need certain types of plants
- [00:32:03.060]and so monarchs being really iconic, they know that the monarchs need milkweed
- [00:32:08.040]to live, that they can plant milkweed and create a space so that those
- [00:32:12.940]butterflies can come and eat and lay their eggs and hatch and
- [00:32:17.740]all of that. They can create friendly spaces for the creatures that they care
- [00:32:22.360]about to thrive and that creates a sense of efficacy for them. It's very
- [00:32:29.320]powerful. They can make a difference in the world and you're never too young to
- [00:32:32.920]make a difference in the world. I love that and then that can easily translate
- [00:32:37.980]like once they're adults and they're older and seeing the problems in the
- [00:32:42.280]human world too. Yes. And so that connection and that empowerment that can translate.
- [00:32:47.620]To you know being in the working world and working with humans. I think
- [00:32:52.720]we're coming to the end of our time together. Was there anything else that you wanted to share about
- [00:32:57.320]the research in nature based learning or maybe how to contact you
- [00:33:02.680]or maybe some of the projects that you're working on. Any final thoughts you would like to share.
- [00:33:07.800]I think one of the things just to share in
- [00:33:12.820]terms of the research evidence it's quite strong across
- [00:33:17.500]a lot of different domains that have been studied for children whether it's
- [00:33:22.660]physical development immune system functioning attention
- [00:33:27.380]emotion regulation experiences in nature seem to be
- [00:33:32.780]positively associated with pretty much every dimension that's been
- [00:33:37.520]studied. Some of the evidence is stronger than others but it's really pointing in the same direction
- [00:33:42.460]and so we can be pretty confident that it's a positive thing
- [00:33:47.380]there really aren't many negatives other than you know bee stings
- [00:33:52.200]particularly if you're allergic to it there aren't a lot of negatives to connecting children with nature
- [00:33:57.580]and a whole lot of positives that it's
- [00:34:02.540]it's just important for them to be able to have these experiences at whatever scale
- [00:34:07.680]they can. But I think as adults it's really important
- [00:34:12.660]that we give ourselves the opportunity to flourish in nature as well.
- [00:34:17.260]For several years in different classes I've given students the assignment to spend an hour outdoors
- [00:34:22.480]in a natural environment without any technology.
- [00:34:25.560]And there are three different responses to that assignment. One is like, yay, I get to
- [00:34:32.500]go outside. One is like, what? You're making me do what now?
- [00:34:37.680]Yeah. And then there's sort of a ho-hum. But then they write their reflection
- [00:34:42.340]papers about it. And to a person it takes them about
- [00:34:47.140]20 minutes to stop the chatter. So especially for the people who are really
- [00:34:52.220]resistant, they'll say, you know, I was thinking about all of the things that I could be doing. What a waste of time this is.
- [00:34:57.420]I have this assignment and that assignment. And am I missing a text? And on and on.
- [00:35:02.260]And then they talk about how after about 20 minutes they start to feel really relaxed.
- [00:35:06.280]And then around 30 minutes they really begin to notice what's going on around them.
- [00:35:10.840]And by the time they get to the end of that hour, they feel fully present.
- [00:35:17.020]And they are motivated to do this more often.
- [00:35:19.660]And so part of the take-home message for me from that is that when you give yourself a chance to do this,
- [00:35:28.040]when you give yourself a chance to disconnect from all of the demands of daily life, to immerse yourself,
- [00:35:33.520]and it doesn't have to be very long, after about 20 or 30 minutes you're going to be more fully present.
- [00:35:40.240]And when you're more fully present, you're more fully human.
- [00:35:43.120]And you can be the person you really want to be.
- [00:35:46.900]And then you can be the person you really want to be for children as well.
- [00:35:51.680]Right, right.
- [00:35:53.280]So I'll leave you with that.
- [00:35:54.960]Yeah, mic drop, just leave us with that.
- [00:35:57.760]Amazing tidbit.
- [00:35:58.840]Thank you so much for this conversation today.
- [00:36:03.380]I truly enjoyed it.
- [00:36:05.320]Yeah, yeah, we are going to have to do this again.
- [00:36:07.820]Yes, it was very fun.
- [00:36:09.060]I just want to appreciate, I just wanted to share how much I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to be here with me and sharing.
- [00:36:16.780]Your wisdom and expertise with me and the Lister's.
- [00:36:19.620]It's my pleasure.
- [00:36:20.360]Thank you so much.
- [00:36:46.660]See you next time.
- [00:36:49.780]And thanks for listening.
- [00:36:51.200]Bye-bye.
- [00:36:51.920]- Bye.
- [00:36:52.760]you
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