Tech EDGE: CS4NE - Paired Programming with Special Guest, Abby Langner

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03/07/2025 Added

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Abby Langner from Westside High School joins CS4NE to share insights on teaching computer science, with a focus on paired programming. Computer Science for Nebraska (CS4NE) University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) Technology (Tech) Education In Digital and Global Environments (EDGE) Innovation in Teacher Education College of Education and Human Sciences | Department of Teaching, Learning and Teacher Education

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[00:00:00.448](upbeat music)
[00:00:05.460]Hi, I'm Guy Trainin from the
[00:00:07.290]University of Nebraska Lincoln.
[00:00:09.300]And I'm Kimberly Ingraham-Beck from Gretna Public Schools.
[00:00:12.465]And this is CS4NE and today we are talking to Abby.
[00:00:17.910]Can you tell us a little bit about Abby?
[00:00:20.130]Yeah, so Abby is in her second year
[00:00:22.470]teaching computer science for West Side Public Schools.
[00:00:26.250]And before that she worked as a STEM teacher,
[00:00:31.440]not with with schools, but just in different
[00:00:34.200]organizations around the area.
[00:00:36.660]And she's worked in the industry as well.
[00:00:38.940]So she has some really interesting and unique perspectives
[00:00:42.090]coming from the industry into education
[00:00:45.000]that I think a lot of people who are only
[00:00:47.490]in the education world don't necessarily get.
[00:00:50.430]So I'm excited to see what she's gonna say.
[00:00:53.790]All right, let's go to the interview.
[00:00:56.070]Hey, Abby, thanks so much for joining us.
[00:00:58.830]Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:01:00.330]All right, so tell us a little bit about yourself
[00:01:02.940]and about your experience in computer science education.
[00:01:06.840]Sure, yeah, I started off with this meandering career path
[00:01:12.720]back in the aughts when I was an undergrad computer
[00:01:15.690]science major before I even thought of teaching.
[00:01:19.110]Got a chance to teach some of my peers
[00:01:21.330]with the supplemental instruction program
[00:01:23.340]and then went, uh-oh, I think I want to teach.
[00:01:25.440]So as as a junior undergrad, I decided to become a teacher
[00:01:29.997]and that extended my stay in my university.
[00:01:35.350]And then I immediately went to teaching math
[00:01:37.080]because at the time you couldn't actually get certified
[00:01:40.140]the way I wanted to for computer science.
[00:01:42.390]They told me I'd have to have a business degree
[00:01:44.640]and I wasn't about to like take on a whole econ minor
[00:01:47.700]in order to get my business endorsement.
[00:01:50.910]So I went ahead and taught math for a while
[00:01:53.640]and then my skills got rusty and I stepped aside
[00:01:56.700]back into private sector and I worked in a dev shop,
[00:02:00.060]ran my own business for 12 years,
[00:02:02.340]always tried to keep one foot in education.
[00:02:04.440]I did a lot of freelance curriculum development
[00:02:07.290]and professional development for teachers.
[00:02:10.714]And then finally when I heard that UNO
[00:02:14.760]offered the computer science master's,
[00:02:17.430]master's in CS education, that was when I was like,
[00:02:19.980]all right, it might be time to come back
[00:02:21.240]and actually get certified the way I wanted to
[00:02:23.280]and do the thing.
[00:02:24.300]And then COVID hit, 'cause you know, of course it did
[00:02:27.600]right when I was getting ready to come back.
[00:02:29.280]So I slow played that one a little bit.
[00:02:31.440]Finally started teaching again last school year
[00:02:34.590]here in Omaha at West Side High School.
[00:02:38.190]So, it's been an interesting path.
[00:02:40.620]And I'm finally back in the classroom where I wanted
[00:02:43.050]to be teaching computer science.
[00:02:45.390]That's amazing.
[00:02:46.223]And what a fun little road that you've,
[00:02:48.870]journey you've been on.
[00:02:50.280]Yeah.
[00:02:51.210]So we're gonna talk a little bit about paired programming.
[00:02:53.910]So can you tell us how you introduce
[00:02:56.040]that concept to your students?
[00:02:58.920]Sure.
[00:03:00.270]First of all, I introduce them
[00:03:02.700]to a lot of other paired activities
[00:03:05.340]and specifically ones that have defined roles.
[00:03:09.030]So I don't necessarily jump straight
[00:03:10.470]into paired programming.
[00:03:11.520]I'll do something where I have them paired up
[00:03:14.520]just to answer a question, but one has to answer it one way
[00:03:17.670]and one has to answer it another way.
[00:03:19.710]So, there's a role A and a role B.
[00:03:22.080]And that helps get it going with knowing
[00:03:24.990]that they're supposed to have different roles.
[00:03:27.060]And that's quick.
[00:03:28.140]You do it in a couple minutes, you're done, it's over
[00:03:30.300]and you can do it again and you can practice
[00:03:32.070]until you have this understanding that one person
[00:03:34.410]has one role and one has another.
[00:03:36.870]So like in my web design class, I might ask, you know,
[00:03:39.750]we're talking about color schemes
[00:03:40.890]and picking colors for a client for their website,
[00:03:43.890]partner A in the even numbered tables, you are going
[00:03:47.130]to tell me what warm color would be best for this client,
[00:03:50.790]and partner B, you're gonna tell me what cool color
[00:03:52.440]would be best for this client?
[00:03:53.970]And then you're gonna argue amongst yourselves
[00:03:55.560]and pick out who was right and pitch it to me later.
[00:03:59.280]So yeah, partner A, partner B or even number, odd number.
[00:04:02.820]Some way to get them really quick and done.
[00:04:06.030]And then later we sidestep into it.
[00:04:08.040]Because the whole point of pair programming
[00:04:10.380]is that you have two very well-defined roles.
[00:04:13.680]One partner is the driver, they're the one
[00:04:16.410]actually creating the computational artifact.
[00:04:19.620]They're the one who is going to be at the keyboard
[00:04:22.710]coding or drawing or creating in some way.
[00:04:26.730]And the other is the navigator.
[00:04:28.770]And they are making sure to parse
[00:04:31.170]the instructions accurately and look up resources as needed,
[00:04:36.300]provide guidance when they spot an error come through
[00:04:40.500]and help develop what questions
[00:04:42.300]to ask me the teacher when they both get stuck.
[00:04:47.550]So there are these two roles and it's really important
[00:04:50.220]to role play in other shorter roles so that they understand
[00:04:54.270]that everybody has a job to do.
[00:04:58.110]And then once it's time,
[00:04:58.943]I probably just randomly assign them.
[00:05:01.170]I like to start it randomly, like I'll say,
[00:05:04.410]well, we're gonna start with your seating chart.
[00:05:05.700]You're already sitting next to somebody.
[00:05:07.200]My classroom's actually set up to have table partners.
[00:05:11.130]And so we do that frequently
[00:05:13.350]and often starting pretty much day one.
[00:05:17.280]That's so cool.
[00:05:18.510]I love that.
[00:05:19.343]I hadn't even thought about, you know, starting off with,
[00:05:22.500]it's just different completely seemingly unrelated things,
[00:05:25.467]but just to kind of get them working and with the flow.
[00:05:28.830]That's awesome.
[00:05:30.210]So what are the benefits of paired programming?
[00:05:32.910]Oh, excellent question.
[00:05:35.130]The biggest benefit is communicating and collaborating.
[00:05:40.410]And there is a lot of extra benefit
[00:05:42.510]in just using the terms for the content.
[00:05:47.040]So think about the difference between you're lecturing,
[00:05:49.410]you're giving standard like scaffolded notes
[00:05:52.500]versus they have to be hands-on figuring it out
[00:05:55.290]and talking to each other and using term from the notes.
[00:05:58.890]So you can scaffold up to it,
[00:06:00.300]but they need to be the ones using it.
[00:06:01.830]They're learning better if they're speaking it,
[00:06:03.450]if they're communicating about their work.
[00:06:06.390]And this is true in both educational programming
[00:06:08.550]and industry pair programming, which I often compare
[00:06:12.540]and tell them in class that I am comparing this,
[00:06:15.330]that I worked in the private sector long enough
[00:06:16.980]to know dev shops do this.
[00:06:19.110]And they're expecting if you are interested
[00:06:20.970]in this career path, to be able to program with somebody
[00:06:25.200]and talk about your work and present it to the board
[00:06:27.930]or to clients or to your team.
[00:06:30.840]So being able to discuss it helps you learn it better,
[00:06:33.810]helps with your soft skills.
[00:06:36.870]It also has some practical benefits in the classroom
[00:06:39.840]such as you get kind of a built in peer review,
[00:06:44.100]so it's quicker and faster feedback for students
[00:06:47.850]before a teacher has to give the longer term turnaround.
[00:06:52.890]So you're more likely to catch errors
[00:06:55.380]and misconceptions faster
[00:06:57.900]because you've got two sets of eyes on it.
[00:07:00.030]And then if they get stuck,
[00:07:01.890]they can come to teacher and get some help.
[00:07:05.550]Another benefit from industry that I like
[00:07:07.650]to tell my students about is a reduction of key man risk.
[00:07:11.700]This is an idea where one person at the company
[00:07:14.910]might be the talent and they've created something
[00:07:17.940]and it's wonderful and it works great,
[00:07:20.070]but when they're gone, work stops,
[00:07:23.130]because they're the only one who knows how it works
[00:07:25.230]and who knows how to use it and who knows
[00:07:28.110]how to maintain it and debug it.
[00:07:30.600]So having the extra eyes on it and having people
[00:07:33.100]in that navigator role explaining, that really reduces
[00:07:38.640]that key man risk so that somebody else knows what to do
[00:07:41.370]and can pick up that slack.
[00:07:43.860]So this is another direct thing that I pitch as you know,
[00:07:46.710]your learning real world career skills.
[00:07:50.640]Wow, yeah, that's amazing.
[00:07:52.320]And just having that industry knowledge too,
[00:07:54.090]like that's so helpful to, there's a reason
[00:07:56.700]why we're doing this and here's the reason.
[00:07:59.880]Yes. Yeah, yeah, it is.
[00:08:00.903]That is fantastic.
[00:08:03.810]So I know you've talked a little bit about this,
[00:08:06.000]but are there any other specific strategies
[00:08:08.520]that you use to make sure that both partners
[00:08:11.340]are actively engaged and contributing
[00:08:13.110]during this paired programming session?
[00:08:15.540]Yes, one is, I'm really thoughtful and deliberate about
[00:08:20.550]what the roles are like per activity.
[00:08:23.730]Because in general, yes, driver navigator,
[00:08:25.440]you can slap that on most programming exercises,
[00:08:28.980]but you might wanna get more specific
[00:08:31.350]and maybe give a little reference card to the navigator
[00:08:34.170]and say, you know, here's a question that you both
[00:08:37.200]should consider every 10 minutes,
[00:08:38.910]here is a question about what resources you have available
[00:08:43.200]to you when you get stuck.
[00:08:44.880]Maybe straight up, give them some links.
[00:08:47.850]Did you pull up the documentation for Java
[00:08:50.040]for this Java programming exercise or this package
[00:08:53.760]you're using for processing JS or whatever it is.
[00:08:57.030]Like, I really like teaching about documentation
[00:09:01.190]and how that, you know, the teacher in the room
[00:09:03.210]is not the only person who can answer your questions.
[00:09:05.880]So the navigator should be responsible
[00:09:07.830]for pulling up those documentation resources
[00:09:10.440]and using them in the pair.
[00:09:13.320]So that's one extra strategy
[00:09:14.760]to make sure they're engaged and working.
[00:09:16.830]Another is role play.
[00:09:20.520]Sometimes roles degrade.
[00:09:22.410]It's the most common problem with pair programming
[00:09:24.840]is some kind of role degradation.
[00:09:28.080]So one of those types of role degradation
[00:09:30.480]is straight up apathy.
[00:09:32.310]Like students just not participating.
[00:09:35.100]You try to engage them and they shrug at you.
[00:09:38.498]And that's one of my favorite role plays to do
[00:09:40.200]is I'll ask the student, Hey, you're gonna be the guy
[00:09:42.300]who doesn't care and just shrugs at me
[00:09:44.250]every time I ask a question just so I can model
[00:09:46.470]what questions you should ask your partner.
[00:09:49.950]So a little role play does a lot of good there.
[00:09:53.400]And then another one is watching, just watching.
[00:09:59.310]Like try to make it so you're not doing anything else
[00:10:02.910]while you're monitoring those roles,
[00:10:05.430]especially in the beginning before it becomes automatic
[00:10:08.700]and they know their roles.
[00:10:10.620]You wanna be sure that they're actually
[00:10:12.300]fulfilling those roles and you can stop anytime and reteach,
[00:10:17.430]do the role plays, any of that.
[00:10:20.670]That's awesome.
[00:10:21.570]Awesome, thank you.
[00:10:23.820]So as you kind of mentioned, you know,
[00:10:26.250]if the students kind of apathetic,
[00:10:28.830]how would you handle a situation
[00:10:30.360]where students are struggling to work effectively as a pair?
[00:10:35.220]Kind of a lot of the same way
[00:10:36.210]you would do any classroom management.
[00:10:37.770]You gotta think about your like reward systems.
[00:10:40.290]You gotta think about how you're going to motivate them
[00:10:43.740]with like extrinsic stuff like grades
[00:10:47.040]and just simple encouragement.
[00:10:49.710]Opportunities to role play,
[00:10:50.970]I think become a fun thing in my class.
[00:10:53.640]You know, it's fun to be a little free
[00:10:55.560]because you're not yourself like, all right,
[00:10:57.600]you're gonna dial it up to 11 with how you're shrugging
[00:11:00.450]at me and we're gonna do this
[00:11:01.410]in front of everybody for a minute. (chuckles)
[00:11:04.260]And another thing to consider,
[00:11:08.460]especially if you're doing computer science as somebody
[00:11:12.630]who generally does elective classes,
[00:11:15.660]this is something I think a lot of business
[00:11:17.940]and computer science and technical teachers
[00:11:19.950]are learning for the first time
[00:11:21.840]because of the new computer science requirement
[00:11:24.180]to graduate, ask for help from the math teachers.
[00:11:28.320]They know a lot about students in a compulsory class
[00:11:32.850]who need to pass to get to the next level.
[00:11:36.390]And so yeah, there are other core teachers
[00:11:39.030]might have insights into how to get them to work too.
[00:11:43.170]So as a computer science educator,
[00:11:45.630]you can lean on the other topic areas.
[00:11:48.540]Maybe you have some special services teachers
[00:11:51.870]who have insight into some students.
[00:11:54.660]Like it's a team effort.
[00:11:57.840]And I used to teach math, so I'm particularly buddy buddy
[00:12:01.290]with my math department and I'm always like interested
[00:12:04.650]in what they have to say about a student who I'm like,
[00:12:06.630]Hey, are they this way in your class?
[00:12:08.970]Do you have any ideas for me too,
[00:12:10.650]'cause I know we're both teaching a required class now.
[00:12:14.040]That's awesome.
[00:12:15.270]Well, and I love that having them work with,
[00:12:19.530]learn to work with someone that's not pulling their weight,
[00:12:22.770]that's a skill that they're going to need
[00:12:24.690]for the rest of their lives.
[00:12:26.747]Yes.
[00:12:27.580]And so helping them role play through that,
[00:12:28.740]and think about it and and problem solve.
[00:12:31.628]That is fantastic.
[00:12:33.300]I love that idea.
[00:12:36.810]And so you have created some really awesome documents
[00:12:41.910]to help with paired programming.
[00:12:44.610]Are there any specific points that you would like
[00:12:46.440]to point out or elaborate on?
[00:12:49.440]Sure.
[00:12:50.820]Do you want me to share my screen
[00:12:52.230]for the video viewers among us?
[00:12:54.480]Yeah.
[00:12:55.691]This is something I created quite a while ago
[00:12:57.780]for a web development curriculum that I was selling
[00:13:02.460]and then refining for my master's degree.
[00:13:05.700]So this is a little bit specific to a certain curriculum,
[00:13:09.570]but it has a lot of stuff that would be relevant
[00:13:12.000]to pair programming in general.
[00:13:14.970]And it starts with like what is pair programming?
[00:13:17.640]It gives you that overview.
[00:13:20.310]And one thing that I think we haven't talked about
[00:13:23.850]is the imbalance of skill.
[00:13:26.940]And the research is kind of mixed.
[00:13:30.690]There's some debate about skill matching
[00:13:32.940]in pair programming.
[00:13:35.460]Some people believe you should have partners
[00:13:37.470]who are like equally skilled and some believe
[00:13:40.260]that you should have like a strong and weak partner
[00:13:44.130]and that they will learn better one way or the other.
[00:13:46.380]It's really not clear last I knew.
[00:13:48.750]That was another reason I had the, "Hello World," book open
[00:13:50.880]is the folks who developed, "The Big Book of Pedagogy."
[00:13:53.100]We're also saying, as far as we can tell,
[00:13:56.070]the results are mixed when it comes
[00:13:57.960]to like peer reviewed research on the subject.
[00:14:00.390]But there are benefits both way.
[00:14:02.190]So the risk of having like a big imbalance
[00:14:05.700]is one being like a railroading the other.
[00:14:08.790]This is a different type of role degradation.
[00:14:10.710]We talked about apathy, but this is a different type
[00:14:12.930]where the roles get thrown out the window
[00:14:15.330]because the stronger partner is just doing it all.
[00:14:18.960]And so when in doubt have them navigate
[00:14:23.040]and the weaker partner drive.
[00:14:25.731]I have literally told a student
[00:14:27.270]who was railroading another student to sit on their hands
[00:14:30.780]because they cannot touch that keyboard. (chuckles)
[00:14:33.630]They need to let the driver drive.
[00:14:36.330]So that's another tip there is like when in doubt
[00:14:41.070]let the the weaker partner drive
[00:14:44.640]and have the stronger partner explaining
[00:14:46.770]and describing and using that vocab.
[00:14:48.810]And you might find that the supposedly stronger partner,
[00:14:52.080]while they could bang out the code needs that practice
[00:14:56.610]with the actual vocabulary
[00:14:58.500]and being able to collaborate on it.
[00:15:01.770]So this is another type of role degradation,
[00:15:03.510]which is why I wanted to point it out.
[00:15:05.700]Yeah, that's great.
[00:15:06.540]Well, and also just the communication skills too.
[00:15:10.890]Yeah, that's a great thing you brought up, yeah.
[00:15:15.060]And then another one with the
[00:15:16.770]how often should they switch?
[00:15:18.630]I wish that computer science resources would say
[00:15:22.770]here are great things for the navigator to do
[00:15:25.140]and here's how often you should switch
[00:15:26.640]when you use this in a pair programming.
[00:15:28.140]But that's pretty rare.
[00:15:29.940]And you'll wind up having to make judgment calls.
[00:15:32.790]Like as you develop lessons as you practice with them,
[00:15:36.120]you might think that this is gonna be great
[00:15:38.010]for pair programming and then it turns out to be a big flop
[00:15:41.130]and you just abandon that entirely
[00:15:42.810]as a new for that assignment.
[00:15:45.120]Or you might tweak it and decide, okay, this works,
[00:15:49.110]but maybe we only get one role
[00:15:51.870]and then we're 10 minutes in and we're done,
[00:15:54.480]so there's no point in switching.
[00:15:56.220]And that's okay.
[00:15:57.053]If you do it frequently, then you,
[00:16:00.270]it doesn't matter if it's only a 10 minute activity
[00:16:02.490]and you only get to do one role
[00:16:05.100]even though it is definitely beneficial to do both.
[00:16:08.040]Do it a lot, so you get every chance to do both.
[00:16:12.534]And then yeah, also doing that role play again
[00:16:15.360]appeared in that one 'cause it's very, very good.
[00:16:20.040]Ooh, grading, I did get asked this one a lot when I first
[00:16:22.104]developed this is how do you grade this.
[00:16:25.290]Equally is my first answer.
[00:16:27.750]Pair programming is meant to develop
[00:16:29.790]a artifact, a deliverable.
[00:16:32.490]And that's how it is an industry too.
[00:16:34.170]You are working on a system or a piece of software
[00:16:37.560]or some other kind of deliverable that is then sent
[00:16:40.740]to production or sent to a client
[00:16:43.967]and that is how that piece is judged.
[00:16:46.230]So that is what I suggest is to go with equally.
[00:16:50.820]That said, one thing that's not in this document,
[00:16:53.130]but I think is in the big book of pedagogy,
[00:16:56.400]is that it should probably be limited to formative work.
[00:17:00.210]And that pair programming in general
[00:17:03.360]probably shouldn't be used for summative assessments.
[00:17:06.840]Those should probably be individual assessments.
[00:17:10.680]You can do a code review as a part
[00:17:17.190]of a summative assessment.
[00:17:18.840]So after the individuals have drafted their own solution,
[00:17:23.850]then they can swap.
[00:17:25.185]A lot like you might in an English class
[00:17:27.030]swapping essays for a peer review.
[00:17:29.220]They're still one person who's responsible
[00:17:31.170]for their own deliverable.
[00:17:32.760]But you get that rubric or checklist of things
[00:17:36.210]to look over with a different set of eyes
[00:17:38.820]before it ever gets to a teacher who has to then take
[00:17:41.280]a longer time to give that feedback cycle.
[00:17:46.170]Wow, yeah, this is fantastic.
[00:17:48.150]You put so much research into this, this is great.
[00:17:53.130]Wow, yes.
[00:17:54.630]All right, so my last question for you,
[00:17:57.480]what advice do you have for new computer science teachers
[00:18:00.180]that would like to add paired programming
[00:18:02.730]to their classroom?
[00:18:05.550]Great question.
[00:18:06.930]So overall, new computer science teachers, welcome.
[00:18:11.250]So happy to have you with us.
[00:18:13.080]Talk to us about it, try it out, tell us how it goes.
[00:18:17.400]Ask us for some help.
[00:18:18.510]Like, hey, this happened and I'm not sure what that was.
[00:18:22.440]Was it railroading?
[00:18:24.060]Sure.
[00:18:24.893]Like see what other people think about it.
[00:18:27.450]Like I said earlier, lean on the other core teachers
[00:18:30.420]who are also now dealing with or who have been
[00:18:33.600]and now you are also maybe dealing with a required class
[00:18:36.630]and trying to make sure everybody's actually completing
[00:18:38.850]that work with higher stakes this time.
[00:18:43.754]And yeah, like be as collaborative
[00:18:45.780]as pair programming is meant to be.
[00:18:48.480]That's awesome.
[00:18:49.350]All right, thank you so much.
[00:18:51.090]I really appreciate you coming over
[00:18:53.360]or you out with me. (laughs)
[00:18:56.430]Yeah, anytime.
[00:18:57.690]Always happy to share a bit.
[00:19:00.042]Like you heard me say at the beginning,
[00:19:01.620]I've been doing this for a while
[00:19:03.030]and I do have that industry experience,
[00:19:05.340]so I like sharing that stuff.
[00:19:06.780]I know not everybody has it.
[00:19:07.770]I know a lot of us were voluntold into this, so Yep.
[00:19:12.630]I am happy to help provide a little support anytime.
[00:19:16.440]So, that was fascinating.
[00:19:18.780]What are the main ideas
[00:19:20.010]that you're taking from this interview?
[00:19:22.140]Wow, there's actually quite a bit.
[00:19:25.193]So paired programming is a concept
[00:19:26.790]that I studied about in school,
[00:19:29.520]but hearing how she uses it in her classroom
[00:19:32.790]and the activities she does
[00:19:34.290]before they even do paired programming, that's super cool.
[00:19:38.640]Also, learning about what she's found
[00:19:41.460]in, "The Big Book of Pedagogy,"
[00:19:43.080]that's a super awesome resource
[00:19:45.540]And that is, "The Big Book of Computing Pedagogy,"
[00:19:48.570]for those of you who aren't using the short form.
[00:19:50.760]The short form is okay, but if you're looking it up online,
[00:19:53.550]this is how you would find it.
[00:19:55.830]Yes, absolutely.
[00:20:00.180]And I love the emphasis on collaboration
[00:20:03.931]as one of the things kids need to learn.
[00:20:05.970]Because often because of, I think the media
[00:20:10.932]and what's in the popular imagination of people,
[00:20:15.180]they always think about programming
[00:20:17.550]and working in computer science as a solitary activity
[00:20:20.430]that you do on your own and nobody else
[00:20:22.140]sees what you're doing.
[00:20:23.310]But in effect, in most companies, in most places,
[00:20:26.460]you are working with others who are working
[00:20:28.290]on the same code or adjacent code,
[00:20:30.990]so you've gotta know how to collaborate.
[00:20:33.450]And that is an important emphasis and orientation
[00:20:38.070]because as was said in the interview,
[00:20:41.760]sometimes kids are very good at the programming
[00:20:43.830]but not working with others.
[00:20:45.780]And some people are good at working
[00:20:47.580]with others and not the programming.
[00:20:48.960]And we need both qualities to make effective teams
[00:20:52.080]that produce large amounts of code.
[00:20:55.530]And I'm a little bit in the back of my mind
[00:20:58.410]as we're thinking about AI, thinking about
[00:21:00.960]also how do you have AI as a third partner in this?
[00:21:05.250]Because we know that AI is now being used to produce code.
[00:21:09.780]Not replacing people, but actually working side by side
[00:21:13.380]with people and making them considerably more efficient.
[00:21:17.160]So that's something to think about
[00:21:18.600]as we think about this field as it develops.
[00:21:22.560]Absolutely, yeah.
[00:21:25.800]All right, and we'll see you next time in CS4NE.
[00:21:30.304](upbeat music)

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Tech EDGE: CS4NE - Paired Programming with Special Guest, Abby Langner

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