"'Hitler’s Children': Germany’s Reckoning with its Nazi Past" | CAS Inquire

CAS MarComm Author

02/28/2025 Added

11 Plays

Description

Gerald Steinacher's CAS Inquire talk on Feb. 25, 2025.

Searchable Transcript

Search:

[00:00:00.000]Good evening. Thank you for joining us I'm June Griffin and I'm excited to welcome you
[00:00:12.360]to the CAS Inquire lecture series whether you're here or joining us remotely
[00:00:17.720]as we explore this year's theme we've looked at the impact historical evolutionary and more
[00:00:24.700]recent events and how we understand war peace and reconciliation our theme continues to
[00:00:30.920]be compelling given the state of events around the world as we gather here the urgent calls
[00:00:36.900]for peace american civilization continue but there are great disagreements about what that
[00:00:41.580]should look like we're also contemplating the outcomes of Germany's election last weekend
[00:00:46.800]and what it means for our understanding of the past and of course what it means for the future
[00:00:50.860]even with the culture and identity of the College of Arts and
[00:00:54.680]Sciences this is this series embodies the commitment of our faculty students and staff
[00:01:00.340]to opening important questions to critical examination and rigorous public exchange
[00:01:05.000]CAS and prior students delve deeper into these questions on a weekly basis
[00:01:10.260]and I'm grateful for their engagement and students in CAS Inquire please
[00:01:24.660]as in the tradition in the CAS Inquire program this year's theme is being explored
[00:01:29.620]through a diverse range of intellectual orientations and disciplinary perspectives
[00:01:33.720]including political science classics and religion studies evolutionary biology and this evening
[00:01:40.440]history Dr Gerald Steinacher is a James a Rawley professor in the department of history
[00:01:46.260]his research focuses on the 20th century european focuses on 20th century european history
[00:01:52.640]with an emphasis on the holocaust
[00:01:54.640]national socialism italian fascism and intelligence studies his 2011 book Nazis on the run how hinder
[00:02:02.580]tension led justice he examined the fate of nazis and other holocaust perpetrators in
[00:02:08.160]the years after world war ii and the mechanisms that facilitated their escape from justice
[00:02:13.080]Dr. Steinacher's most recent book humanitarians at war the red cross in the shadow of the
[00:02:19.120]holocaust was published in 2017 it explores the lesson learned by the Geneva based intervention
[00:02:24.620]international committee of the red cross after its handling of the holocaust and the
[00:02:28.600]policy changes made regarding genocide and victims of war tonight Dr Steinacher joins us
[00:02:34.800]with his lecture hitler's children germany's reckoning with its not be passed to look at
[00:02:39.980]how germany has learned from its dark history how it addresses the horrors of the holocaust
[00:02:44.540]and endeavors to maintain a course of stewardship for their democracy he asks an important and
[00:02:54.600]please join me in welcoming Dr. Steinacher
[00:02:57.580]yeah thank you very much for this kind introduction can y'all hear me yes excellent it's wonderful
[00:03:11.360]to be part of this important initiative i'm very honored to be here today and have the opportunity
[00:03:17.060]to speak to you about a very important topic that is very close to my heart um and it's
[00:03:24.580]great to see so many people interested in german and european history that makes me very hopeful
[00:03:31.000]um also i'm also very thankful and grateful that i see many of my colleagues from the history
[00:03:39.220]department many of my students and my former students so welcome all of you of course the
[00:03:46.940]casting choir students wonderful that you're all here as a historian and a holocaust scholar
[00:03:54.560]i'm often asked can we learn from the past what lessons can we draw from the holocaust and the
[00:04:02.540]nazi regime my answer is yes we can learn from the past and there are lessons to be drawn from
[00:04:09.200]the holocaust i often point to german society as one example today i want to explore some key
[00:04:16.960]insights into the german experience of war peace and reconciliation so the theme that we discuss
[00:04:24.540]this year based on my research teaching and my personal experience growing up in a society with
[00:04:34.520]a nazi past i've prepared slides and images to explain my points i will speak for about 35 to 36
[00:04:42.640]minutes or so and i will mostly read my paper otherwise it will never stick to the time
[00:04:48.280]and that's just how it is and after that i'm going to open it uh open it up to
[00:04:54.520]human aid and i'm very much looking forward to your questions that's of course the most
[00:04:59.580]interesting part for myself for myself this year all right ready let's get started i will
[00:05:08.520]take you on a journey now one of the most powerful documentaries i show my students
[00:05:16.380]is hitler's children from 2011 this film examines the lives of the descendants
[00:05:24.500]children and grandchildren of high-ranking and prominent nazi leaders it explores their
[00:05:31.660]struggles with field and responsibility some of these children have changed their family names
[00:05:38.080]after all who want to carry a name like hitler himmler or guring do you i certainly don't
[00:05:47.700]others reject their nazi relatives entirely and some even go so
[00:05:54.480]far as to decide not to have children fearing that evil genes genetics might be passed on
[00:06:02.100]to be clear these children and grandchildren bear no personal guilt for the crimes of the
[00:06:09.120]nazi ancestors most weren't even alive at the time yet they experience deep internal struggles as
[00:06:16.200]they confront their family histories children often sparks intense discussions among my students
[00:06:24.460]touching on moral ethical personal legal and historical questions what stands out about the
[00:06:32.740]people in this film so the children and grandchildren in this film is that none
[00:06:39.520]of them denying the past they face it head-on this reflects a broader characteristic of
[00:06:48.640]German society which has long grappled with how to acknowledge and take responsibility for
[00:06:54.440]its history many children and grandchildren of ordinary Nazis and bystanders had to find
[00:07:01.280]ways to come to terms with this difficult past just as German and Austrian societies as a whole
[00:07:07.880]had to and obviously still have to Germany today openly acknowledges its role as the perpetrator
[00:07:16.280]of the Holocaust its unique approach to guilt and responsibility has shaped its national memory and continues to
[00:07:24.420]influence how the country understands itself particularly in relation to World War II and the Holocaust
[00:07:31.060]as former German president Joachim Gauck stated in 2015
[00:07:39.220]there is no German identity without Auschwitz
[00:07:44.500]there is no German identity without Auschwitz what a powerful quote and statement
[00:07:54.400]don't you think?
[00:07:55.100]but most societies tend to embrace heroic narratives
[00:08:00.500]the good guys us versus the bad guys them
[00:08:03.580]Germany stands out as distinct and in many ways unique
[00:08:08.460]this is due to its remarkable self-critical historical culture
[00:08:11.940]acknowledging the crimes of their parents grandparents and great-grandparents as perpetrators
[00:08:18.460]but at the same time honoring the victims is as scholar Alila Asma notes
[00:08:24.380]a novelty in history
[00:08:26.380]the idea that perpetrators would honor the victims of their crimes is rare in world history indeed
[00:08:33.740]the German experience has drawn attention from societies dealing with the darker part of their own history
[00:08:41.740]one example that talks about this issue is the book "Learning from the Germans: Race and the Memory of Evil"
[00:08:50.700]by American philosopher Susan Bleeman
[00:08:54.360]it explores how both the U.S. and Germany confront the legacy of racism
[00:09:00.260]Neiman and others suggest that the German experience offers valuable lessons for these discussions
[00:09:08.540]but how guilty does children, the descendants of the Nazis, get here?
[00:09:13.820]and what does this process look like today in a quickly, very quickly changing political environment?
[00:09:22.200]and what can we, if anything
[00:09:24.340]learn from Hitler's children?
[00:09:27.740]the German term
[00:09:32.260]prepare for it
[00:09:34.360]Vergangenheitsbewältigung
[00:09:37.640]Vergangenheitsbewältigung
[00:09:40.220]as in German is a beautiful language
[00:09:44.160]Vergangenheitsbewältigung, meaning confronting the past, kind of, dealing with the past
[00:09:50.280]is crucial to understanding Germany's post-1940
[00:09:54.320]politics, culture and society
[00:09:56.620]This process was long, difficult and unfolded in different stages
[00:10:01.600]marked by setbacks, debates and international dimensions as well
[00:10:06.860]Today I will discuss this transformation, how Germany reached this point
[00:10:11.280]and how its memory culture evolved
[00:10:13.400]This journey was complex, full of changes and challenges
[00:10:17.740]To make sense of it, I will talk you through its development decade by decade
[00:10:24.300]I will focus on key events from each period
[00:10:27.360]because in the interest of time, that's all I can do, obviously
[00:10:31.600]I want to start with the reckoning, criminal punishment, criminal justice
[00:10:39.020]Nazi Germany was defeated and surrendered unconditionally on May 8, 1945
[00:10:44.560]Most of you were aware of that
[00:10:47.520]Many Nazi leaders committed suicide
[00:10:50.760]The worst war in human history came to an end with 60 million
[00:10:54.280]dead, including 6 million Jews murdered in a systematic state-sponsored genocide
[00:10:59.860]the Holocaust
[00:11:01.020]A genocide carried out by Nazi Germany and its collaborators
[00:11:05.320]The Allies decided that the crimes committed by Nazi Germany needed to be punished
[00:11:11.000]The International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg saw the trial of 21 leaders of the so-called
[00:11:17.980]Third Reich
[00:11:18.700]And here's an iconic picture, of course, from the International Military Tribunal
[00:11:24.260]A trial with the 21 defendants in the Doptesegur
[00:11:29.240]Many other war crimes trials followed
[00:11:33.820]Altogether, around 5,000 people were prosecuted for war crimes in the western zones of Germany alone
[00:11:42.200]And around 600 perpetrators were sentenced to death
[00:11:45.820]But many of these people sentenced to death were not executed
[00:11:50.840]In addition to these criminal trials, the Allies decided
[00:11:54.240]to purge the state administration, police, universities of members of the Nazi party
[00:12:00.880]There was no German government anymore in 1945
[00:12:04.920]Germany was divided into four occupation zones by the main Allies
[00:12:08.600]and the eastern parts of Germany were annexed by Poland and the Soviet Union
[00:12:13.100]Millions of Germans were expelled from their former home regions in the east
[00:12:19.260]Germany was to be denazified, democratized,
[00:12:24.220]militarized and decentralized to ensure it would never again be a threat to
[00:12:29.980]world peace. That was the main concern. Never again a war being started, provoked by
[00:12:37.840]Germany. The creators of the Nuremberg trials aimed to make the proceeding more than
[00:12:43.060]just a legal process based on the rule of law and not revenge. Their goal
[00:12:48.340]was also to reshape German society. They wanted to show the world and especially
[00:12:54.200]the Germans the crimes committed by them or in their name, using the courtroom to
[00:13:01.820]teach an anti-fascist lesson. Many Germans did not object initially to the
[00:13:12.080]international Nuremberg trial. They understood the need to bring top war criminals to
[00:13:18.180]justice. At first, the Western Allies' efforts to establish individual
[00:13:24.180]guild through the rule of law were accepted by Germans. Germans also began
[00:13:28.800]discussing the questions of their own guild, as they themselves started to discuss
[00:13:33.840]their own guild. The Christian churches, especially the Lutheran Church, addressed
[00:13:39.180]this question of German guild in the so-called Stuttgart Confession of Guild, Stuttgart
[00:13:45.600]Schulderklärung. Pastor Martin Niemöller was one of the most talented
[00:13:54.160]people in the world. He was a great scholar, a great philosopher, a great person, and a
[00:13:56.140]great writer. He is best known today for his poem, "First it came for the Communists,"
[00:14:00.800]and I did not speak out because I was not a communist and so on. This poem is often
[00:14:07.520]quoted even at the Holocaust memorials and inscriptions, which warns about the dangers
[00:14:13.140]of staying silent in the face of injustice. For me personally, the most impressive reflections
[00:14:19.600]on German guild came from the German philosopher Karl Jaspers.
[00:14:24.140]In recent times, I started to read him again, and I'm really fascinated by how meaningful
[00:14:33.200]and timely his ideas and his reflections are.
[00:14:37.980]An anti-Nazi university professor, Jaspers was forced out of academia during most of
[00:14:42.980]the Nazi years. Jaspers did not stop there, but went on to reflect deeply on German guilt
[00:14:49.260]in the ruins of the Third Reich. In one of his first post-war lectures, he spoke of the
[00:14:54.120]different categories of guilt. He famously categorized guilt into four types: criminal
[00:15:02.640]guilt, political guilt, moral guilt, and metaphysical guilt. Criminal guilt applies to individuals
[00:15:11.800]who commit crimes under the law. Political guilt concerns the responsibility one has
[00:15:17.540]regarding how they are governed. Moral guilt relates to one's personal actions. Moral
[00:15:24.100]and metaphysical guilt implies, according to Jaspers, that one is co-responsible for
[00:15:30.020]the wrongdoing and injustice that occurs in the world overall. Jaspers therefore asserted
[00:15:37.160]that every German was guilty under one or more of the categories defined by the philosopher.
[00:15:44.140]However, at the same time Jaspers rejected the idea of the collective criminal guilt
[00:15:54.080]of being guilty. By the late 1940s, the mood in Germany changed significantly. Most Germans
[00:16:03.120]saw themselves increasingly as victims of the Nazis and the war, rather than as perpetrators.
[00:16:10.180]How is that possible? Germans as victims and not as perpetrators in World War II? Well,
[00:16:18.940]they focused on their own suffering, suffering. Losing family members, losing friends, losing
[00:16:24.060]friends, enduring Allied bombings, being raped at the war stand by Allied soldiers, and experiencing
[00:16:30.200]mass expulsions by civilians. They did life centered on securing housing, food, and eating
[00:16:36.500]materials. There was no will for reflecting on guilt anymore. Soon the defeated Germans
[00:16:44.000]adopted a forgive-and-forget mentality, which essentially meant forgiving themselves and
[00:16:54.040]including the victims. Also, there were critical voices still. There was strong peer pressure
[00:16:59.860]to confirm to this new narrative by the late 1940s. The Pope and the Christian churches
[00:17:06.020]played a significant role in shaping this attitude. Pope Pius XII, who was also the
[00:17:11.480]Pope during the Holocaust and the Second World War, notably called for forgiving the perpetrators
[00:17:17.100]and forgetting the recent crimes, and therefore also the victims, I assume, as he stated in
[00:17:24.020]1948, a statement reported also in the New York Times, and you can see the headline basically
[00:17:30.420]summarizing this article, or this view from the Pope. His plea for the world to forgive
[00:17:35.340]Germany and instead help to rebuild the country marked a central moment. It needs to be noted
[00:17:42.120]that his call from the vicar of Christ to forgive and to forget came just three years
[00:17:48.820]after the deadliest war in human history. The German Lutheran...
[00:17:54.000]Lutheran church, too, eventually fell in line with this new victim narrative. As it turns
[00:18:04.020]out, this mentality greatly benefited from and was also driven by the early Cold War
[00:18:08.780]priorities and necessities. With the Berlin blockade in 1948 and the Korean War in 1950,
[00:18:15.880]the former wartime ally, the Soviet Union, became an enemy for the West. Meanwhile, Germany,
[00:18:23.980]became an ally of the United States and its Western partners. The focus shifted to integrating
[00:18:30.640]West Germany into the Western alliance. West German leaders focused on rebuilding the country,
[00:18:37.300]rapid economic growth, and joining the Western world rather than dealing with the Nazi past.
[00:18:43.300]In 1949, the Federal Republic of Germany, or West Germany, was founded with Konrad Adenauer,
[00:18:49.960]a Catholic and anti-Nazi politician, as its first chairman.
[00:18:53.960]Adenauer took a practical approach to politics.
[00:18:59.680]He advocated for reparations to Israel and Jewish victims, resulting in the 1952 Luxembourg
[00:19:06.140]Agreement, through which West Germany committed to making significant payments.
[00:19:11.720]This helped West Germany gain international recognition.
[00:19:15.720]However, most Germans did not support these reparations and internally considered themselves
[00:19:21.940]mostly victims.
[00:19:23.940]As part of its integration into the Western bloc, Germany underwent remilitarization,
[00:19:30.880]joined NATO in 1955, and became a strong ally of the West.
[00:19:36.640]Former Nazi generals and officials were once again needed to build a new German army and
[00:19:41.120]a state to counter the threat of communism.
[00:19:45.060]This shift marked the end of war crimes trials and administrative purges, with more convicted
[00:19:53.920]Nazis being released by the mid-1950s.
[00:19:57.120]Most convicted Nazi war criminals were freemen by the mid-1950s again.
[00:20:02.800]German generals made clear that they would not build a new West German army for the US
[00:20:08.280]and other Western allies while their comrades on trial as war criminals.
[00:20:12.920]This was a no-go.
[00:20:13.920]The early call was shaped how the Nazi past was handled, also in cases of war criminals.
[00:20:23.900]For example, the socialist Klaus Pauli, known as the Butcher of Lyon, Lyon is a city in
[00:20:30.080]France.
[00:20:31.080]Pauli was a brutal torturer and war criminal.
[00:20:34.700]Despite being wanted by French authorities, he was protected by US intelligence.
[00:20:40.360]He emphasized and stressed his anti-communist credentials and his work against communists
[00:20:45.660]in France and Germany during the war, convincing the Americans that he could be useful now
[00:20:53.880]during the Cold War period.
[00:20:56.140]After all, they shared a common enemy: communists.
[00:20:59.200]Instead of facing justice, Parpy was secretly sent to South America, where he lived freely.
[00:21:06.200]This case was not unique, by no means unique, and my own research shows this very clearly.
[00:21:13.600]It shows how, in the 1950s, the fight against communism often took priority over reckoning
[00:21:19.240]with the Nazi past and over criminal justice.
[00:21:23.860]Here we have a photo of Klaus Bauby, everyone in France knows him, he's probably the most
[00:21:30.380]well-known photo Klaus Bauby portrayed in France, and he's had a travel papers he used
[00:21:37.500]to escape justice in 1951 with the help of U.S. intelligence and also Catholic institutions
[00:21:46.020]and made a lot of sense on the background of the very powerful.
[00:21:53.840]The Nazi past was frozen in ice, as in the 1950s, pushed under the carpet, not much was
[00:22:01.640]discussed.
[00:22:02.640]In the 1960s, Germany was confronted again with its Nazi past.
[00:22:10.900]In 1960, Adolf Eichmann, how many of you have heard of Adolf Eichmann, the students?
[00:22:18.460]Yeah, kind of, yeah, okay, yeah.
[00:22:23.820]Adolf Eichmann was, he was one of the leading organizers of the Holocaust.
[00:22:28.960]He was a key figure in the context of the Holocaust.
[00:22:35.000]In 1960, he was kidnapped in Argentina and brought to Israel to stand trial.
[00:22:40.360]This was a major international event that triggered significant repercussions.
[00:22:45.440]And here you have this iconic photo of Eichmann, he drews along at the trial in this picture.
[00:22:53.800]This bulletproof box is a very iconic picture of his trial here.
[00:22:59.840]For Germany, the Eichmann trial brought the atrocities of Nazi crimes back into the public
[00:23:05.560]spotlight through television, radio and newspapers.
[00:23:09.080]It specifically addressed the systematic mass murder of European Jews by Nazi Germany, which
[00:23:16.140]we now call the Holocaust.
[00:23:18.040]The trial emphasized the unique nature and unparalleled scale of these crimes.
[00:23:23.780]It embedded them deeply into Western and German consciousness, and this awareness has persisted
[00:23:28.880]ever since.
[00:23:29.880]In 1964, the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt demonstrated Germany's willingness and ability
[00:23:39.320]to pursue criminal justice against Nazi perpetrators within its own legal system.
[00:23:45.540]One major issue in post-war West Germany was the presence of former Nazis in positions
[00:23:51.140]of power.
[00:23:52.140]It was not feasible to remove them.
[00:23:53.760]To remove all individuals who Nazi-passed from their jobs, which included a wide range
[00:23:59.480]of roles, like State Department officials, police officers, school teachers, university
[00:24:05.280]professors, business leaders, judges, there were 8 million German Nazi Party members.
[00:24:11.060]The new West German state, the Federal Republic of Germany, needed many of these experts to
[00:24:15.640]function effectively.
[00:24:16.640]In East Germany, many former Nazis were also included in the new society.
[00:24:23.740]The 1970s were, in many ways, a little bit like the 1950s.
[00:24:32.340]Overall, a relatively quiet decade in Germany, regarding reckoning with the Nazi past.
[00:24:38.240]I'm oversimplifying here, but the 1970s were relatively quiet when it comes to that topic.
[00:24:46.500]However, what stands out is the Ostpolitik, this was a policy of reconciliation and normalization
[00:24:53.720]of communist neighbors led by German Chancellor Willy Brandt, a social democrat.
[00:24:58.840]It aimed to ease tensions that had persisted since World War II and the early Cold War.
[00:25:05.340]An iconic moment of this era was Willy Brandt's significant visit to Warsaw, Poland's capital,
[00:25:12.180]in December 1970.
[00:25:14.780]During this visit, he famously went down on his knees in front of the monument commemorating
[00:25:21.480]the Warsaw Ghetto Occupation.
[00:25:23.700]The Warsaw Ghetto was the largest ghetto in Europe, and the uprising in 1943 was one of
[00:25:30.800]the largest acts of armed Jewish resistance during the Holocaust.
[00:25:35.340]Brandt's symbolic gesture of kneeling was an act of respect, humility, and repentance.
[00:25:42.000]His plea for forgiveness and reconciliation was remarkable and unprecedented.
[00:25:46.900]A head of government to perform such an act, going down on his knees.
[00:25:53.460]Asking another nation and people for forgiveness for the crimes of the past.
[00:25:58.220]Notably, Brandt himself was an anti-Nazi.
[00:26:01.960]He had spent the Nazi years in exile in Sweden and Norway.
[00:26:06.060]Therefore, he was not asking for forgiveness from Jews, Poles, and Jewish Poles on his own behalf,
[00:26:13.260]but on behalf of the German people.
[00:26:16.260]To my knowledge, no comparable acts have been performed by other heads of state or government in Europe or North America.
[00:26:23.220]Brand's gesture was polarizing and divisive in Germany, but as some Germans applauded him,
[00:26:30.220]many perhaps most had little understanding of the gesture and believed that Germany should not focus on the past.
[00:26:37.220]There was still very much this idea of "forgive and forget, move on."
[00:26:42.220]So what does this image show?
[00:26:52.980]Fall of the Berlin Wall, yeah. Some of you are old enough to remember.
[00:26:57.980]I certainly do remember. So the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989.
[00:27:05.980]When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and the Cold War ended, political views shifted.
[00:27:11.980]Archives are opened and laws and views regarding the Nazi past will be shaped again.
[00:27:16.980]The 1980s and 1990s were the years of consensus
[00:27:22.740]on Holocaust memory in Germany.
[00:27:24.740]I mean, what we now consider the German model of Vergangenheitsbewertung,
[00:27:28.740]again, this wonderful German work, confronting the past, took shape during those two decades.
[00:27:34.740]Richard von Weizsäcker was the first West German president to refer to May 8, 1945.
[00:27:40.740]Do you remember the German surrender?
[00:27:43.740]He referred to that day as a day of liberation rather than simply marking it as the end of the war.
[00:27:52.500]It was not about the defeat, but German liberation from fascism.
[00:27:56.500]The German president said, and I quote him, "Yes, with every day something became clearer,
[00:28:02.500]and this must be stated on behalf of all of us today.
[00:28:05.500]The 8th of May was a day of liberation.
[00:28:08.500]It liberated all of us from the inhumanity and tyranny of the National Socialist regime."
[00:28:14.500]His speech in 1985, before the German parliament, remains iconic.
[00:28:20.500]Interestingly,
[00:28:22.260]as a young lawyer,
[00:28:24.260]Weizsäcker had defended his own father,
[00:28:29.260]who was sentenced as a Nazi war criminal at the Nuremberg Trust.
[00:28:34.260]And I look very much in my new research about this case, it's fascinating.
[00:28:40.260]So, he clearly had come a long way.
[00:28:43.260]In 1985, Weizsäcker affirmed the uniqueness of the Holocaust
[00:28:47.260]when he stated in the same speech, and I quote him again,
[00:28:51.260]"It is true that
[00:28:52.020]hardly any country has in its history always remained free
[00:28:56.020]from claim for war or violence.
[00:28:58.020]The genocide of the Jews is, however, unparalleled in history.
[00:29:04.020]The genocide of the Jews is, however, unparalleled in history."
[00:29:09.020]End of quote.
[00:29:10.020]In the 1990s, the understanding of perpetrator history expanded,
[00:29:18.020]not just in terms of why the Germans committed mass murder,
[00:29:21.780]but also who the men and women were.
[00:29:24.780]Up until the 1980s, millions of Germans believed that ordinary German regular
[00:29:30.780]army soldiers from the Wehrmacht had merely done their duty for a fatherland
[00:29:37.780]and had nothing to do with the crimes of the Holocaust.
[00:29:41.780]According to this narrative, all atrocities were committed by the SS,
[00:29:46.780]the Nazi paramilitary forces. However, this perception was about
[00:29:51.540]to change fundamentally a decade later with an event that would
[00:29:55.540]deeply shape both Germany and Austria. I remember well.
[00:30:00.540]A traveling exhibition called "The Crimes of the Wehrmacht,"
[00:30:04.540]organized by the Hamburg Institute for Social Research in 1995,
[00:30:09.540]marked a paradigm shift in public understanding.
[00:30:13.540]It highlighted the widespread complicity of the German army
[00:30:17.540]in the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes.
[00:30:21.300]Something that researchers had documented for years,
[00:30:24.300]but that the exhibition now brought to a much wider audience
[00:30:27.300]across many German and Austrian cities.
[00:30:30.300]It was a traveling exhibition after all.
[00:30:34.700]The exhibition triggered widespread discussions and controversies throughout Germany, partly
[00:30:40.220]reflecting a generational divide.
[00:30:42.140]It also provoked massive demonstrations by far-right and neo-Nazi groups, as well as
[00:30:48.020]threats against the organizers.
[00:30:49.580]In 1999, there was even a bombing attack on the exhibition.
[00:30:54.220]The historians' dangerous job leading the project had to live under police protection
[00:31:02.380]in an undisclosed location due to death threats.
[00:31:07.940]And I know the politics well.
[00:31:10.440]Why was this so controversial, one might ask?
[00:31:14.300]One reason is that it affected almost every German family.
[00:31:19.780]Nearly every family had someone who served in the German armed forces during World War II.
[00:31:27.340]Most were drafted in the regular army, the German army.
[00:31:31.880]The uncomfortable question was over a Nazi,
[00:31:36.860]was planned that a Nazi now arose at family dinners.
[00:31:41.020]Many families discovered a Nazi in the attic.
[00:31:45.060]Today, the widespread complicity of the German army,
[00:31:52.420]not just the SS or the Nazi party,
[00:31:54.480]in the Holocaust is broadly accepted as historical consensus in Germany.
[00:31:59.000]The heroes of Germany today,
[00:32:01.860]although the term hero is rarely used in Germany nowadays,
[00:32:06.080]are the members of the anti-Nazi resistance.
[00:32:11.240]People like the students of the White Rose group are widely admired.
[00:32:14.740]The White Rose was a small group of students
[00:32:17.380]and one of their professors who,
[00:32:19.520]after witnessing Nazi crimes firsthand,
[00:32:22.020]began printing and distributing anti-Nazi leaflets.
[00:32:25.060]This was before the Internet and social media.
[00:32:28.080]So spreading information was dangerous.
[00:32:31.840]And difficult.
[00:32:32.480]The leaflets exposed atrocities against Jews and Slavic people
[00:32:37.200]and called for the overthrow of Hitler's government.
[00:32:39.920]The students were eventually called and executed in 1943.
[00:32:43.740]Today, they are seen as role models in Germany.
[00:32:47.940]Schools are named after members of the group,
[00:32:50.620]such as Sophie Scholl,
[00:32:52.240]who was a biology and philosophy student
[00:32:55.060]at the University of Munich.
[00:32:56.500]And here you have Sophie Scholl,
[00:32:58.940]together with her brother, Hans Scholl,
[00:33:01.820]and her friend, Christoph Prost,
[00:33:03.740]all were members of the White Rose Resistance Group
[00:33:06.120]at the University of Munich.
[00:33:07.640]So how many here are 21 years old?
[00:33:10.880]Well, maybe.
[00:33:14.720]22?
[00:33:16.420]Can I raise their hand again?
[00:33:18.860]Okay.
[00:33:19.240]Yeah, Sophie Scholl was only 21
[00:33:24.040]when she was executed by the Nazis.
[00:33:25.900]She was not Jewish,
[00:33:27.840]she was not targeted by the Nazis,
[00:33:29.820]and could just have stayed out.
[00:33:31.800]But she followed her conscience.
[00:33:34.760]In the 1990s,
[00:33:35.900]after student protests,
[00:33:37.940]the square in front of my own university
[00:33:40.040]of Innsbruck was renamed
[00:33:41.580]after Christoph Prost,
[00:33:42.800]who is here in the picture.
[00:33:44.360]Christoph Prost Square,
[00:33:46.100]in honor of one of the white most students.
[00:33:48.400]He had been a student at my university
[00:33:51.140]when he was arrested by the police
[00:33:52.860]and executed for his non-violent
[00:33:54.560]anti-Nazi resistance.
[00:33:56.380]And Christoph was 23 years old
[00:33:59.180]when he was executed.
[00:34:01.780]The 2000s,
[00:34:06.180]now we're in the 2000s,
[00:34:07.320]saw major monument projects
[00:34:09.360]related to the Holocaust in Germany.
[00:34:11.600]I just want to mention two very briefly.
[00:34:14.180]I also want to say that
[00:34:15.300]these major monuments
[00:34:16.680]were built relatively recently,
[00:34:18.720]in the last 20 years.
[00:34:20.160]That's quite amazing in Germany.
[00:34:21.840]The first monument I want to briefly mention
[00:34:24.700]is the Memorial Museum
[00:34:26.080]to the Murdered Jews of Europe.
[00:34:27.540]It was built in 2005.
[00:34:29.620]That is one thing that after
[00:34:31.760]the opening of the United States
[00:34:33.720]Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.,
[00:34:36.060]which was opened in 1994,
[00:34:37.620]the German Holocaust Memorial
[00:34:40.340]stands out in the heart of Berlin,
[00:34:41.960]the nation's capital.
[00:34:42.980]The massive monument, as you can see here,
[00:34:46.380]made of large granite blocks.
[00:34:48.600]To many, it represents
[00:34:50.080]a Jewish graveyard, but it's open
[00:34:51.780]to interpretation. Some politicians
[00:34:54.000]opposed its construction.
[00:34:55.400]They argued that its central location
[00:34:57.480]may be too imposing, but placing
[00:34:59.900]it in the center of Berlin sends a
[00:35:01.740]strong message. It shows Germany's
[00:35:03.780]commitment to facing its past.
[00:35:05.400]In the U.S., the Holocaust Museum
[00:35:07.700]in D.C. was built in a national mall.
[00:35:09.980]Displacement
[00:35:11.860]highlights the importance of Holocaust
[00:35:13.600]history in America, and Holocaust
[00:35:15.620]in American history and memory.
[00:35:17.840]In Berlin,
[00:35:19.400]however, the memorial
[00:35:21.660]was built by the descendants of the
[00:35:23.400]proletariat. This makes it a striking
[00:35:25.920]acknowledgement of a dark past,
[00:35:27.800]one that stands at the
[00:35:29.860]core of Germany's memory of
[00:35:31.720]Dutch. The other
[00:35:33.720]monuments I want to
[00:35:35.720]briefly introduce here
[00:35:37.280]are on a much smaller
[00:35:39.860]scale, the so-called
[00:35:41.480]Stolpersteine, stumbling
[00:35:43.580]stones. They're much smaller
[00:35:45.760]in size, even modest, but very powerful
[00:35:47.720]I think. German artist
[00:35:49.760]Gunther Demnig created a powerful
[00:35:51.660]project, again called
[00:35:53.380]Stolpersteine, stumbling stones,
[00:35:55.140]which are small press
[00:35:57.640]plaques placed on sidewalks
[00:35:59.780]to honor victims of Nazi persecution
[00:36:01.700]These plaques can be found
[00:36:03.760]in Germany and across many other
[00:36:05.600]European countries nowadays, not just
[00:36:07.540]in Germany. Each plaque is
[00:36:09.660]simple but meaningful, featuring
[00:36:11.620]the name, deportation date, and
[00:36:13.680]date of death of a Jewish
[00:36:15.680]person who once lived at that location
[00:36:17.860]before being deported
[00:36:19.300]Through small insights, these
[00:36:21.660]memorials are deeply moving
[00:36:23.200]because they bring the past to a personal
[00:36:25.820]level. Seeing a
[00:36:27.780]name on the street where someone
[00:36:29.420]once lived makes you ask, who
[00:36:31.680]are they? What was their
[00:36:33.580]life like before everything
[00:36:35.700]changed?
[00:36:36.740]This is a photo from
[00:36:39.080]Bollandstrasse 8 in Vienna
[00:36:40.780]This is my address last
[00:36:43.680]time when I did research in Vienna
[00:36:45.220]and
[00:36:47.520]this was in the Schulz Quarter
[00:36:49.600]of Vienna
[00:36:51.320]so you will find many of these
[00:36:53.560]Stolpersteine, obviously
[00:36:54.920]because many people
[00:36:56.620]had their last residences there before being
[00:36:59.640]deported. And if you live in
[00:37:01.660]one of these houses, you understand you share
[00:37:03.500]the same space as the people
[00:37:05.540]who were deported to Lithuania
[00:37:07.140]once, and that gets very personal
[00:37:09.720]and is very powerful.
[00:37:10.860]So I have to
[00:37:15.360]look at my time, and I slowly have to
[00:37:17.460]conclude my short talk here.
[00:37:19.920]So I want to conclude
[00:37:21.440]with a few paragraphs.
[00:37:23.520]Germany and the Germans
[00:37:25.780]where and still are often
[00:37:27.360]associated with the Nazi dictatorship,
[00:37:29.460]World War II, and the Holocaust,
[00:37:31.640]the Shoah and the Hebrew.
[00:37:32.760]The Holocaust, the systematic mass murder
[00:37:35.840]of 6 million Jews by Nazi Germany
[00:37:37.980]and its allies, stands out
[00:37:40.000]in history. It is frequently
[00:37:41.920]regarded as the embodiment
[00:37:43.700]of absolute evil,
[00:37:44.860]serving as a benchmark against which
[00:37:48.040]other atrocities and genocides
[00:37:50.160]are measured.
[00:37:50.800]When World War II ended in 1945,
[00:37:54.100]the concentration camps
[00:37:56.140]were liberated. The world
[00:37:57.960]saw the full scale of horror.
[00:37:59.600]The name Germany
[00:38:01.620]became a symbol of shame.
[00:38:03.880]Germans were seen as
[00:38:05.940]a pariah nation.
[00:38:07.060]Today, 80 years after the liberation
[00:38:10.020]of Auschwitz, Germany is
[00:38:12.000]a leading nation at the heart of the European
[00:38:14.020]Union, still
[00:38:15.580]a stable democracy
[00:38:17.160]that is liberal, open to the world,
[00:38:19.700]pluralistic, and a long-standing
[00:38:21.420]economic powerhouse.
[00:38:22.800]It is widely respected, and German
[00:38:25.360]food, culture, and travel to the country
[00:38:27.260]are fashionable, and
[00:38:29.000]I'm not just talking about beer,
[00:38:31.600]and topographist.
[00:38:32.940]Germany is an
[00:38:35.560]overall success story, certainly
[00:38:37.540]when compared with the first German
[00:38:39.340]democracy between 1918 and
[00:38:41.380]1933, so-called Weimar
[00:38:43.520]Republic.
[00:38:44.140]There can be little doubt about that.
[00:38:46.940]What is remarkable, and something I want
[00:38:49.420]to stress here again, is this.
[00:38:50.980]Germany's transformation
[00:38:53.180]is not due to ignoring the
[00:38:55.360]Holocaust and World War II,
[00:38:57.000]nor because the world overlooked
[00:38:59.680]them, but rather because
[00:39:01.580]of the way Germany eventually
[00:39:03.780]actively confronted
[00:39:05.640]these events.
[00:39:06.900]I want to conclude with some major takeaways
[00:39:09.980]from
[00:39:11.420]Vergangenheit.
[00:39:12.280]First, there is a broad
[00:39:15.680]German consensus on the need to
[00:39:17.620]learn from history, summed up
[00:39:19.540]in the Paul Never Again.
[00:39:20.860]Nazis are bad,
[00:39:22.960]and German society must
[00:39:25.740]develop safeguards against such
[00:39:27.700]ideologies. The lessons
[00:39:29.700]of the past should help better
[00:39:31.560]build a better society so that
[00:39:33.960]history does not repeat itself.
[00:39:35.720]This includes
[00:39:37.820]rejecting militarism,
[00:39:40.380]nationalism,
[00:39:41.440]racism, scapegoat
[00:39:43.900]mentality, and anti-Semitism,
[00:39:45.960]among other things.
[00:39:47.060]Protecting human dignity
[00:39:49.640]is at the center of the
[00:39:52.020]German constitution, article 1.
[00:39:54.140]Holocaust denial,
[00:39:56.220]Nazi symbols, and
[00:39:58.000]Nazi propaganda are outlawed
[00:40:00.320]in Germany.
[00:40:02.300]Second takeaway,
[00:40:03.660]Germany's
[00:40:05.140]coming to terms
[00:40:08.340]with the past has its
[00:40:10.280]limitations and many shortcomings.
[00:40:12.380]Other dark chapters
[00:40:14.480]of Germany's history,
[00:40:15.720]such as colonial crimes in
[00:40:18.260]Africa and Namibia, and particularly
[00:40:20.020]the modern colony, have
[00:40:22.300]often been overlooked.
[00:40:23.520]The Jewish community was not always
[00:40:26.560]fully included in the conversation
[00:40:28.300]between, well, the 1950s,
[00:40:30.560]60s, and 70s,
[00:40:31.520]hardly ever included in the conversation
[00:40:34.540]is a huge shortcoming.
[00:40:35.780]And the crimes of the communist
[00:40:38.320]era have received less attention
[00:40:40.240]also in Germany.
[00:40:41.400]Some Germans also experience a certain
[00:40:44.140]fatigue in confronting the past
[00:40:46.100]due to constant reminders, discussion,
[00:40:48.140]memory work, education, schools,
[00:40:50.180]and its presence in public life.
[00:40:52.440]So there's a certain moral cause for fatigue.
[00:40:54.220]The recent search of this far-right,
[00:40:58.120]of the far-right in Germany,
[00:40:59.700]presents a serious
[00:41:01.500]challenge to the country's approach
[00:41:03.880]to reckoning with its criminal past.
[00:41:06.500]I think that's really obvious.
[00:41:08.600]One thing is clear,
[00:41:10.680]Germany's journey of addressing
[00:41:12.940]war, peace, and reconciliation
[00:41:14.640]after World War II
[00:41:16.100]and the Holocaust
[00:41:16.920]is far from over.
[00:41:20.980]Thank you very much
[00:41:22.620]for your attention.
[00:41:23.560]Thank you so very much.
[00:41:43.060]We have up to date questions.
[00:41:44.980]If you're online,
[00:41:48.340]please send them in
[00:41:49.460]and we'll ask them away.
[00:41:51.100]I'll just get it started.
[00:41:56.080]One of the several reasons
[00:41:57.780]I came here today
[00:41:58.580]was to hear you say
[00:41:59.620]Frankenheims.
[00:42:00.400]I think it was four times.
[00:42:03.400]There's so many topics
[00:42:07.580]that you brought up.
[00:42:09.280]One of the things
[00:42:10.380]about the US HMM,
[00:42:12.280]right?
[00:42:13.080]1994 in the United States.
[00:42:15.360]And you did mention
[00:42:16.720]about Germany
[00:42:17.620]directing with its past
[00:42:18.860]and kind of the connection
[00:42:20.700]of that.
[00:42:21.000]Does the United States
[00:42:22.120]hopefully approach that
[00:42:24.180]in the same way?
[00:42:25.760]We live in an age,
[00:42:27.800]of course,
[00:42:28.260]where it's becoming
[00:42:29.060]more difficult
[00:42:29.740]to critically engage
[00:42:31.060]with any issues past.
[00:42:32.860]The thing that started
[00:42:35.880]out with me,
[00:42:36.460]and I know somebody
[00:42:37.220]said this before,
[00:42:38.000]so I'm plagiarizing
[00:42:40.220]some of it.
[00:42:40.740]You know,
[00:42:41.960]the US HMM
[00:42:43.060]made a wondrous
[00:42:44.740]institution,
[00:42:45.500]academic research,
[00:42:46.640]museum,
[00:42:47.180]everything.
[00:42:47.720]Ultimately,
[00:42:49.680]it's the more
[00:42:50.980]I've seen
[00:42:51.580]the greatest
[00:42:53.700]crime of
[00:42:54.340]another nation.
[00:42:55.140]Where is
[00:42:57.580]the memorialization
[00:42:58.600]for
[00:42:59.120]American slavery,
[00:43:00.900]right?
[00:43:01.420]Or for,
[00:43:02.080]well,
[00:43:02.400]a lot of academics
[00:43:03.420]would say
[00:43:03.920]the genocide
[00:43:04.860]of Native Americans.
[00:43:05.780]And I don't
[00:43:07.740]want to be
[00:43:08.160]pessimistic here,
[00:43:09.200]but the United States
[00:43:10.680]has never had
[00:43:11.520]the kind of
[00:43:13.280]reckoning,
[00:43:14.300]at least in the
[00:43:14.980]beginning,
[00:43:15.620]like in 1945,
[00:43:16.440]right?
[00:43:17.000]I don't think
[00:43:18.400]we want to have
[00:43:19.020]that kind of
[00:43:19.460]reckoning
[00:43:19.860]in that way.
[00:43:20.960]We get to that
[00:43:21.480]point.
[00:43:21.800]But it's just
[00:43:23.960]the difficulty
[00:43:24.680]of a nation
[00:43:25.680]that has
[00:43:26.540]not through
[00:43:29.340]the rest of
[00:43:29.860]the world,
[00:43:30.200]not through
[00:43:30.700]the force
[00:43:31.240]of the rest
[00:43:31.680]of the world,
[00:43:32.060]really had
[00:43:32.820]really been
[00:43:35.980]called to
[00:43:36.360]court,
[00:43:36.640]first for
[00:43:37.840]legal crimes
[00:43:38.660]but also for
[00:43:39.340]moral crimes.
[00:43:40.080]How does a
[00:43:41.540]nation like
[00:43:42.100]that really
[00:43:43.160]take a critical
[00:43:43.860]look at itself?
[00:43:44.580]Yeah,
[00:43:46.180]thank you so
[00:43:46.920]much,
[00:43:47.120]Tony,
[00:43:47.400]for your
[00:43:47.740]question.
[00:43:48.200]How many
[00:43:49.720]hours do we
[00:43:50.440]have?
[00:43:50.940]I think
[00:43:54.000]I had to
[00:43:55.200]limit myself.
[00:43:55.880]I have 35
[00:43:57.020]minutes,
[00:43:57.540]almost 40
[00:43:58.140]minutes,
[00:43:58.600]to kind of
[00:44:00.040]give a short
[00:44:00.680]overview of
[00:44:01.380]some major
[00:44:03.080]turning points
[00:44:03.900]that I see
[00:44:04.600]to explain
[00:44:06.100]Germany's
[00:44:07.140]approach how
[00:44:07.800]to deal with
[00:44:08.340]the criminal
[00:44:08.800]past.
[00:44:09.400]And I
[00:44:11.580]hope you
[00:44:11.980]came across
[00:44:12.680]that this
[00:44:13.300]was very
[00:44:14.920]murky.
[00:44:15.420]This was
[00:44:17.100]not a
[00:44:17.620]straight line
[00:44:18.340]from the
[00:44:18.960]very beginning.
[00:44:20.920]And there
[00:44:21.400]were many
[00:44:21.760]moments where
[00:44:22.440]this did not
[00:44:23.180]really happen
[00:44:23.840]at all,
[00:44:24.400]where people
[00:44:25.420]like, I
[00:44:26.380]think of
[00:44:26.760]Austria,
[00:44:27.140]of course,
[00:44:27.520]because I
[00:44:28.040]grew up in
[00:44:28.660]Austria,
[00:44:29.020]but you
[00:44:29.640]have people
[00:44:29.960]like Simon
[00:44:30.480]Liesenthal,
[00:44:31.160]who was a
[00:44:32.060]Holocaust
[00:44:32.460]survivor,
[00:44:33.020]and who
[00:44:35.060]became famous
[00:44:36.560]as Nazi
[00:44:37.360]hunter,
[00:44:37.680]because he
[00:44:38.560]reminded the
[00:44:39.280]world, and
[00:44:39.640]Austrians in
[00:44:40.260]particular,
[00:44:40.620]that there
[00:44:41.980]is still
[00:44:42.680]unfinished
[00:44:43.140]business,
[00:44:43.940]that many
[00:44:44.520]Nazi
[00:44:44.920]perpetrators
[00:44:45.480]did get
[00:44:45.880]away,
[00:44:46.180]but not
[00:44:46.940]being held
[00:44:47.860]responsible.
[00:44:48.500]And he,
[00:44:50.900]he spoke
[00:44:52.340]out in
[00:44:52.820]the 1950s,
[00:44:53.740]60s,
[00:44:54.180]70s,
[00:44:54.820]where most
[00:44:55.420]people in
[00:44:56.180]his society,
[00:44:56.880]in the
[00:44:57.120]Austrians
[00:44:57.440]society,
[00:44:57.700]he did
[00:44:58.840]not want
[00:44:59.200]to hear
[00:44:59.460]about this
[00:44:59.960]at all.
[00:45:00.380]He was
[00:45:01.280]seen as
[00:45:01.900]a troublemaker,
[00:45:02.580]as a
[00:45:02.980]nuisance,
[00:45:03.380]he was
[00:45:03.680]not embraced
[00:45:04.320]at all.
[00:45:04.760]And so,
[00:45:06.320]the German
[00:45:08.560]process is
[00:45:09.040]fascinating
[00:45:09.660]because it
[00:45:10.320]has all
[00:45:10.760]these,
[00:45:11.100]you know,
[00:45:11.380]ups and
[00:45:11.860]downs,
[00:45:12.320]and turning
[00:45:13.220]points,
[00:45:13.800]and contradictions
[00:45:15.200]also,
[00:45:15.520]many
[00:45:15.840]contradictions.
[00:45:16.480]It's by
[00:45:17.020]far,
[00:45:17.480]as I
[00:45:19.440]said,
[00:45:19.700]you know,
[00:45:19.960]many
[00:45:20.200]shortcomings,
[00:45:20.880]and I
[00:45:22.700]admire,
[00:45:26.960]for me,
[00:45:28.080]it's
[00:45:28.200]fascinating
[00:45:28.620]that eventually
[00:45:29.860]German society
[00:45:31.100]embraced this
[00:45:32.160]narrative,
[00:45:32.700]and embraced
[00:45:33.780]the perpetrator
[00:45:34.500]goal,
[00:45:34.840]and to learn
[00:45:36.060]from the
[00:45:36.480]lessons of
[00:45:37.040]the past.
[00:45:37.460]And I
[00:45:38.140]think in
[00:45:38.620]that regard,
[00:45:39.400]it is
[00:45:40.720]pretty rare.
[00:45:41.660]This doesn't
[00:45:42.700]happen that
[00:45:43.480]often.
[00:45:43.740]And you're
[00:45:44.180]absolutely right.
[00:45:44.840]I mean,
[00:45:45.140]the first
[00:45:45.540]impetus came
[00:45:46.340]from the
[00:45:46.720]Allies.
[00:45:47.120]The Allies
[00:45:48.280]made it
[00:45:48.660]clear in
[00:45:49.120]the war,
[00:45:49.520]these crimes,
[00:45:50.860]need to be
[00:45:51.560]punished.
[00:45:52.020]And that
[00:45:53.820]was criminal
[00:45:54.300]justice.
[00:45:54.800]And there
[00:45:55.320]was the
[00:45:55.660]purging of
[00:45:56.180]that
[00:45:56.360]administration
[00:45:56.940]and educational
[00:45:57.780]efforts and
[00:45:59.040]so on and
[00:45:59.460]so on.
[00:45:59.800]But all
[00:46:00.400]these efforts
[00:46:01.180]quickly ended.
[00:46:02.420]By 1950,
[00:46:03.800]when Korea
[00:46:05.160]broke out,
[00:46:06.420]those efforts
[00:46:07.380]were wrapped
[00:46:07.840]up.
[00:46:08.140]There were
[00:46:09.200]no more
[00:46:09.600]war crimes
[00:46:10.080]jobs.
[00:46:10.420]And,
[00:46:11.720]I mean,
[00:46:13.400]the German
[00:46:13.760]society then
[00:46:14.780]moved to
[00:46:15.780]the point
[00:46:16.200]where we
[00:46:16.600]were victims,
[00:46:17.080]we all
[00:46:17.560]suffered,
[00:46:17.960]and let's
[00:46:18.740]forget about
[00:46:19.200]the past.
[00:46:19.660]And it
[00:46:20.100]was kind
[00:46:20.840]of accepted
[00:46:21.360]from the
[00:46:22.120]world as
[00:46:22.580]well,
[00:46:22.860]on the
[00:46:23.700]background
[00:46:24.040]of the
[00:46:24.420]Cold War.
[00:46:25.120]So,
[00:46:26.520]yeah,
[00:46:27.280]I can
[00:46:29.040]only say
[00:46:29.640]that from
[00:46:30.460]my point
[00:46:30.960]of view
[00:46:31.240]for the
[00:46:31.580]German
[00:46:31.800]society,
[00:46:32.440]looking back
[00:46:33.340]and comparing
[00:46:33.900]that with
[00:46:34.320]Weimar,
[00:46:34.740]the Western
[00:46:37.800]democracy
[00:46:38.480]after 1949
[00:46:39.640]was pretty
[00:46:40.800]successful,
[00:46:41.360]and I
[00:46:41.980]think one
[00:46:42.780]reason why
[00:46:43.620]it was
[00:46:43.860]successful is
[00:46:44.740]because they
[00:46:45.200]were willing
[00:46:45.540]to learn
[00:46:45.980]the lesson
[00:46:46.400]from the
[00:46:46.760]past.
[00:46:47.060]But,
[00:46:48.480]of course,
[00:46:48.840]that doesn't
[00:46:49.160]explain all
[00:46:49.820]the work
[00:46:50.100]we do
[00:46:50.380]in this
[00:46:50.740]country.
[00:46:50.960]And to
[00:46:54.260]the Americans,
[00:46:54.780]it can't
[00:46:55.580]be done.
[00:46:55.880]That's my
[00:46:57.760]message.
[00:46:58.980]It can't
[00:46:59.400]be done.
[00:46:59.740]Every society
[00:47:00.760]is different.
[00:47:01.420]It's hard
[00:47:02.740]to compare,
[00:47:03.460]right?
[00:47:04.080]But I
[00:47:06.260]think certain
[00:47:06.740]lessons can't
[00:47:07.600]be learned.
[00:47:07.960]And the
[00:47:09.360]photo that
[00:47:09.880]we saw
[00:47:10.400]of
[00:47:10.900]Willy
[00:47:12.160]Brandt,
[00:47:12.660]I mean,
[00:47:13.000]still every
[00:47:14.040]time I
[00:47:14.460]look at
[00:47:14.760]this image
[00:47:15.280]I say,
[00:47:15.480]wow,
[00:47:15.900]wow.
[00:47:16.600]This is
[00:47:18.380]so unique
[00:47:19.680]in a way.
[00:47:20.460]But it
[00:47:23.160]can be
[00:47:23.660]done.
[00:47:24.000]Thank you,
[00:47:31.460]Dr.
[00:47:31.820]Steinle.
[00:47:32.380]So,
[00:47:35.800]one thing
[00:47:37.660]I find
[00:47:38.040]interesting
[00:47:38.460]about what
[00:47:39.760]happened is
[00:47:40.480]that
[00:47:40.800]universities
[00:47:41.700]were very
[00:47:42.260]complicit
[00:47:42.920]with Nazi
[00:47:44.000]machines.
[00:47:44.600]And so,
[00:47:46.160]one question
[00:47:47.000]I have,
[00:47:47.440]I have two
[00:47:47.800]questions.
[00:47:48.140]One question
[00:47:49.100]is,
[00:47:49.800]what have
[00:47:50.920]universities
[00:47:51.480]in Germany
[00:47:52.620]done to
[00:47:53.700]reckon with
[00:47:54.200]the past?
[00:47:54.880]And two,
[00:47:56.480]how can
[00:47:57.760]we prevent
[00:47:58.880]the
[00:48:00.720]complicity
[00:48:01.320]of our
[00:48:01.620]own
[00:48:02.020]university
[00:48:02.780]at this
[00:48:04.160]time with
[00:48:05.480]rising
[00:48:06.400]fascism
[00:48:07.140]in our
[00:48:07.920]own country
[00:48:08.560]and not
[00:48:10.660]have to
[00:48:11.240]eventually
[00:48:12.000]memorialize
[00:48:12.920]some atrocities
[00:48:13.800]that happened
[00:48:14.520]as a result
[00:48:15.460]of our
[00:48:15.780]complicity
[00:48:16.340]now?
[00:48:16.740]Yeah.
[00:48:17.460]So,
[00:48:18.280]these are
[00:48:19.080]also
[00:48:19.520]a
[00:48:19.780]Thank you very
[00:48:20.200]much for
[00:48:20.600]these questions.
[00:48:21.260]They were,
[00:48:21.680]of course,
[00:48:22.080]very powerful
[00:48:23.520]and again,
[00:48:24.660]you know,
[00:48:24.940]the same thing
[00:48:25.500]that I said
[00:48:26.020]earlier before
[00:48:26.680]answering,
[00:48:27.040]trying to
[00:48:27.660]answer
[00:48:27.940]or responding
[00:48:28.540]to the
[00:48:28.900]first question,
[00:48:29.560]how many
[00:48:30.220]hours do
[00:48:30.760]we have?
[00:48:31.260]So,
[00:48:32.600]for the
[00:48:33.520]German
[00:48:33.720]universities,
[00:48:34.540]there was
[00:48:36.140]of course
[00:48:36.480]the first
[00:48:36.960]moment of
[00:48:37.500]denazification
[00:48:38.080]by the
[00:48:39.320]Allies
[00:48:39.780]mostly
[00:48:40.340]and then
[00:48:40.900]taken over
[00:48:41.720]for some
[00:48:42.280]time by
[00:48:42.700]the
[00:48:42.840]West German
[00:48:43.740]states
[00:48:44.300]to
[00:48:45.360]basically
[00:48:49.300]look and
[00:48:50.640]screen people
[00:48:51.300]who had
[00:48:51.600]a Nazi
[00:48:52.020]background
[00:48:52.520]as a
[00:48:52.880]Nazi
[00:48:53.080]party
[00:48:53.340]membership
[00:48:53.820]as
[00:48:54.940]university
[00:48:55.500]professors
[00:48:56.020]during the
[00:48:56.460]Nazi
[00:48:56.700]years
[00:48:57.120]and many
[00:48:58.060]of these
[00:48:58.440]people
[00:48:58.920]were
[00:48:59.640]removed
[00:49:00.160]from
[00:49:00.440]university
[00:49:01.180]careers
[00:49:03.760]but
[00:49:05.280]you know
[00:49:06.360]when the
[00:49:06.780]Cold War
[00:49:07.440]in most
[00:49:09.880]of these
[00:49:10.200]people were
[00:49:10.680]rehired and
[00:49:11.420]continued their
[00:49:12.080]careers basically
[00:49:12.880]in many cases
[00:49:13.740]all the way
[00:49:14.520]up to their
[00:49:15.120]retirement in
[00:49:15.820]the 1990s
[00:49:16.700]or whatnot
[00:49:17.140]right
[00:49:17.640]in
[00:49:19.120]Germany
[00:49:19.280]of course
[00:49:19.880]there was the
[00:49:20.540]students who
[00:49:21.900]were active
[00:49:22.560]early on in
[00:49:23.220]the 1950s
[00:49:24.180]students on
[00:49:25.140]various universities
[00:49:26.420]already organized
[00:49:27.600]exhibitions
[00:49:28.240]pointing to
[00:49:29.700]the Nazi
[00:49:30.140]legacy of
[00:49:31.140]university professors
[00:49:32.320]their background
[00:49:33.140]the continuities
[00:49:34.220]in Germany
[00:49:34.860]including also
[00:49:36.080]the legal system
[00:49:37.060]of the many
[00:49:37.700]judges who
[00:49:38.320]continued their
[00:49:39.340]careers in
[00:49:41.280]the new
[00:49:41.860]West German
[00:49:43.000]state
[00:49:43.460]and then
[00:49:45.460]of course
[00:49:45.780]68
[00:49:46.300]this was also
[00:49:47.800]in Germany
[00:49:48.520]a very
[00:49:49.260]important
[00:49:49.880]I actually
[00:49:50.500]had a paragraph
[00:49:51.120]in here
[00:49:51.620]but in the
[00:49:52.140]interest of
[00:49:52.540]time I
[00:49:53.060]didn't talk
[00:49:53.680]about it
[00:49:54.280]the students
[00:49:55.520]also brought
[00:49:56.360]up among
[00:49:56.820]many other
[00:49:57.420]issues in
[00:49:57.980]Germany
[00:49:58.300]like similar
[00:49:59.280]to the
[00:49:59.800]US
[00:50:00.120]Vietnam
[00:50:00.500]peace
[00:50:01.440]movement
[00:50:01.880]those kind
[00:50:02.580]of things
[00:50:03.080]but also
[00:50:04.380]specifically
[00:50:04.980]for Germany
[00:50:05.640]the continuities
[00:50:07.040]of Nazis
[00:50:09.240]serving in
[00:50:10.080]the state
[00:50:10.460]including
[00:50:10.960]the universities
[00:50:11.900]and
[00:50:13.300]there were
[00:50:14.400]huge protests
[00:50:15.240]and movements
[00:50:16.080]against that
[00:50:16.700]and over time
[00:50:17.400]they had an
[00:50:17.900]impact
[00:50:18.360]on
[00:50:19.240]I grew up
[00:50:19.780]in Austria
[00:50:20.340]of course
[00:50:20.700]everything is
[00:50:21.340]later in Austria
[00:50:22.300]so when I talk
[00:50:23.640]about Christoph Probst
[00:50:24.900]this was in the
[00:50:26.100]1990s
[00:50:26.960]very late
[00:50:27.640]and
[00:50:29.360]we still had
[00:50:30.440]Austrian University
[00:50:31.500]who had their
[00:50:33.140]you know
[00:50:33.940]university halls
[00:50:35.280]or the square
[00:50:36.000]in front of the
[00:50:36.680]university
[00:50:37.160]named after
[00:50:38.000]former Nazis
[00:50:39.220]Nazi professors
[00:50:40.160]and
[00:50:40.520]university presidents
[00:50:42.020]and so on
[00:50:42.640]and so we as
[00:50:43.560]the students
[00:50:43.980]in the 1990s
[00:50:45.040]said okay
[00:50:45.600]we want Christoph Probst
[00:50:47.340]who was one of
[00:50:48.400]our students
[00:50:49.220]he was an anti-Nazi
[00:50:50.340]resistance
[00:50:50.880]he was a member
[00:50:51.620]of the White House
[00:50:52.460]and
[00:50:53.460]university of course
[00:50:54.860]the address is now
[00:50:55.900]Christoph Probst
[00:50:56.700]Square
[00:50:57.720]but this was
[00:50:59.300]a long process
[00:51:00.700]for
[00:51:03.400]now
[00:51:04.980]and here
[00:51:05.660]what to
[00:51:06.460]recommend
[00:51:07.780]I think it's
[00:51:11.020]it's important
[00:51:12.420]to learn history
[00:51:13.660]what I noticed
[00:51:15.680]is that
[00:51:16.720]you can only
[00:51:17.800]say never again
[00:51:18.900]in the
[00:51:19.200]meaningful way
[00:51:20.240]if you know
[00:51:21.020]what happened
[00:51:21.700]and you have
[00:51:22.720]no idea
[00:51:23.340]what happened
[00:51:23.920]if you know
[00:51:24.360]nothing about
[00:51:25.020]history
[00:51:25.440]and say
[00:51:25.720]oh never again
[00:51:26.480]what exactly
[00:51:27.720]are you talking
[00:51:28.460]about
[00:51:28.840]right
[00:51:29.260]and that's
[00:51:30.380]the problem
[00:51:30.860]we face
[00:51:31.380]I just give
[00:51:31.960]you an example
[00:51:32.620]as a Holocaust
[00:51:33.560]scholar
[00:51:33.980]there were
[00:51:35.140]recent surveys
[00:51:35.960]coming out
[00:51:36.600]at a claims
[00:51:37.200]conference
[00:51:37.720]and they
[00:51:39.860]were
[00:51:40.260]doing a
[00:51:41.900]survey
[00:51:42.320]among Americans
[00:51:43.820]and about
[00:51:44.860]50% of the
[00:51:45.920]Americans
[00:51:46.420]interviewed
[00:51:47.240]or surveyed
[00:51:48.060]in this
[00:51:48.500]survey
[00:51:49.080]in this
[00:51:50.300]project
[00:51:50.720]at a
[00:51:51.060]claims
[00:51:51.300]conference
[00:51:51.740]could not
[00:51:52.440]name a
[00:51:53.860]single
[00:51:54.140]concentration
[00:51:54.760]camp.
[00:51:55.160]Not
[00:51:57.160]Auschwitz,
[00:51:58.140]not Dachau,
[00:51:58.920]not a
[00:51:59.680]single
[00:51:59.860]concentration
[00:52:00.420]camp.
[00:52:00.720]And if
[00:52:01.420]you keep
[00:52:01.780]in mind
[00:52:02.240]that there
[00:52:02.600]were more
[00:52:02.980]than 44,000
[00:52:04.440]camps of
[00:52:05.180]various sorts,
[00:52:05.860]not all
[00:52:06.260]concentration
[00:52:06.800]camps,
[00:52:07.240]and then
[00:52:09.360]you cannot
[00:52:09.740]name a
[00:52:10.180]single
[00:52:10.480]camp.
[00:52:10.920]I mean,
[00:52:11.960]on that
[00:52:12.480]basis,
[00:52:12.960]of course,
[00:52:13.600]never again
[00:52:14.660]is meaningless.
[00:52:16.240]It's
[00:52:16.660]absolutely
[00:52:17.060]meaningless.
[00:52:17.540]So,
[00:52:18.940]that's why
[00:52:19.460]education is
[00:52:20.420]so crucial.
[00:52:20.940]Knowing,
[00:52:21.380]knowing,
[00:52:21.740]knowing,
[00:52:22.140]and talking
[00:52:23.920]to students,
[00:52:24.580]talking to
[00:52:25.260]people in
[00:52:25.940]my personal
[00:52:26.500]environment,
[00:52:27.000]friends who
[00:52:27.780]are not
[00:52:28.060]academics,
[00:52:28.720]I often
[00:52:30.740]come across
[00:52:31.380]that the
[00:52:31.860]knowledge
[00:52:32.220]about
[00:52:32.660]history,
[00:52:33.400]Second World
[00:52:34.580]War,
[00:52:34.940]fascism in
[00:52:35.940]general,
[00:52:36.300]is often
[00:52:37.100]very,
[00:52:37.480]very limited
[00:52:38.220]and mostly
[00:52:41.440]coined by
[00:52:42.720]stereotypes
[00:52:44.560]or simplifications,
[00:52:45.980]and that's
[00:52:46.620]not very
[00:52:47.080]helpful at
[00:52:47.700]all.
[00:52:48.260]But,
[00:52:48.740]you know,
[00:52:50.020]we can
[00:52:50.400]already do
[00:52:50.900]so much.
[00:52:51.480]And that's
[00:52:53.900]one reason.
[00:52:54.380]So I feel
[00:52:54.960]very strongly
[00:52:55.540]about academia.
[00:52:56.260]I really
[00:52:57.280]like doing
[00:52:58.580]academic research
[00:52:59.660]and writing
[00:53:00.380]books and
[00:53:01.060]publishing
[00:53:01.440]houses and
[00:53:03.240]so on.
[00:53:03.740]I also
[00:53:05.280]love teaching,
[00:53:06.500]but I also
[00:53:07.660]want to reach
[00:53:08.200]a wider
[00:53:08.560]audience with
[00:53:09.940]public education,
[00:53:11.200]public outreach,
[00:53:12.160]and that is
[00:53:12.740]very close
[00:53:13.400]to my heart.
[00:53:13.960]I feel this
[00:53:14.780]is really,
[00:53:15.300]really so
[00:53:16.020]important,
[00:53:16.500]more important
[00:53:17.220]than ever.
[00:53:17.980]More important
[00:53:18.760]than ever.
[00:53:19.180]Thank you,
[00:53:25.760]Gerard.
[00:53:26.000]Speaking as
[00:53:29.320]a German
[00:53:29.580]myself,
[00:53:30.300]who grew
[00:53:32.860]up in
[00:53:34.140]school in
[00:53:35.040]the 80s,
[00:53:35.720]or went
[00:53:36.100]to school
[00:53:36.560]in Germany
[00:53:37.100]in the 80s,
[00:53:37.900]so this
[00:53:39.620]gets back
[00:53:40.700]to Margaret's
[00:53:41.340]question about
[00:53:42.520]academia or
[00:53:43.420]higher education,
[00:53:44.600]education in
[00:53:45.340]general.
[00:53:45.740]One of the
[00:53:46.820]things that I
[00:53:47.220]remember,
[00:53:47.700]the most
[00:53:48.740]was that
[00:53:52.840]precisely out
[00:53:54.540]of 68,
[00:53:54.700]the people
[00:53:57.760]who ended
[00:53:58.240]up becoming
[00:53:58.740]teachers,
[00:53:59.240]so the
[00:53:59.900]students who
[00:54:01.000]were purchasing
[00:54:01.700]around 68
[00:54:03.040]for various
[00:54:05.060]reasons,
[00:54:05.460]but they
[00:54:06.280]were really
[00:54:06.700]the first
[00:54:07.160]ones,
[00:54:07.500]as I
[00:54:07.900]understand
[00:54:08.400]it,
[00:54:08.680]to challenge
[00:54:09.900]their parents,
[00:54:11.020]what did
[00:54:11.540]you do
[00:54:11.880]daddy,
[00:54:12.200]and so
[00:54:12.600]on,
[00:54:12.960]and went
[00:54:16.180]into the
[00:54:16.700]German
[00:54:16.960]institutions
[00:54:17.420]gradually
[00:54:18.360]in the
[00:54:18.740]70s,
[00:54:19.320]and then
[00:54:19.880]my teachers
[00:54:20.920]in the
[00:54:21.180]80s
[00:54:21.660]were basically
[00:54:22.640]the 68ers,
[00:54:23.780]and he
[00:54:27.200]said that
[00:54:27.980]Germany has
[00:54:29.400]a tracking
[00:54:29.760]system in
[00:54:30.380]high school,
[00:54:30.780]the highest
[00:54:31.800]level,
[00:54:32.220]the university
[00:54:33.340]leading level,
[00:54:34.380]there were
[00:54:35.880]very few
[00:54:36.400]subject matters
[00:54:37.220]where we
[00:54:38.440]didn't deal
[00:54:40.360]with 33
[00:54:42.380]to 45,
[00:54:43.060]and it's
[00:54:44.020]prehistory
[00:54:44.720]though,
[00:54:44.980]as you
[00:54:45.300]quite rightly
[00:54:45.900]say,
[00:54:46.640]there was
[00:54:47.220]just about
[00:54:47.860]nothing on
[00:54:48.580]the German
[00:54:49.000]side in
[00:54:49.420]Africa
[00:54:49.760]prior to
[00:54:52.100]that,
[00:54:52.360]but it
[00:54:53.680]was
[00:54:53.880]literature,
[00:54:55.340]sociology,
[00:54:56.500]political
[00:54:57.360]science,
[00:54:57.980]certainly
[00:54:58.680]history,
[00:54:59.260]it was
[00:55:00.720]almost
[00:55:01.020]inescapable
[00:55:02.060]in West
[00:55:03.920]Germany.
[00:55:04.480]In light
[00:55:07.260]of the
[00:55:07.660]election
[00:55:08.300]yesterday,
[00:55:09.160]Margaret's
[00:55:11.100]husband Tom
[00:55:11.860]put this
[00:55:12.240]on Facebook,
[00:55:12.800]the map
[00:55:14.240]of Germany
[00:55:14.780]where it
[00:55:15.580]astonished
[00:55:16.740]me,
[00:55:17.020]but not
[00:55:17.820]astonished
[00:55:18.380]me as far
[00:55:18.900]as I'm
[00:55:19.180]concerned,
[00:55:19.540]breaks down
[00:55:20.240]exactly
[00:55:21.020]between
[00:55:22.140]East Germany
[00:55:22.820]and West
[00:55:23.260]Germany
[00:55:23.660]where
[00:55:24.380]the Nazi
[00:55:25.880]Party
[00:55:26.360]has won
[00:55:31.020]the elections
[00:55:31.600]there.
[00:55:31.960]And of
[00:55:32.900]course,
[00:55:33.080]I wonder
[00:55:33.580]if you
[00:55:34.120]can speak
[00:55:35.980]based on
[00:55:36.860]your knowledge
[00:55:37.760]a little
[00:55:38.660]bit on
[00:55:40.120]that level
[00:55:40.700]of sort
[00:55:41.140]of the
[00:55:41.340]micro-political
[00:55:42.480]not the
[00:55:43.520]idea that
[00:55:44.360]'s really
[00:55:44.560]bound
[00:55:44.900]in as
[00:55:45.420]what was
[00:55:46.160]an icon
[00:55:46.480]for my
[00:55:46.820]generation
[00:55:47.460]of course
[00:55:47.940]on the
[00:55:48.300]political
[00:55:48.900]left
[00:55:49.260]but at
[00:55:50.640]the
[00:55:50.740]micro-political
[00:55:51.360]level
[00:55:51.620]the
[00:55:51.840]micro-institutional
[00:55:52.720]level
[00:55:53.120]which I
[00:55:54.300]think
[00:55:54.520]Germany
[00:55:55.340]had
[00:55:55.820]fundamentally
[00:55:56.500]different
[00:55:57.480]relationships
[00:55:58.600]to the
[00:55:59.400]crime
[00:55:59.680]committed
[00:56:00.020]by the
[00:56:00.380]country
[00:56:00.680]all of
[00:56:05.460]these
[00:56:05.620]questions
[00:56:06.000]are a
[00:56:06.700]separate
[00:56:07.320]talk
[00:56:08.060]and
[00:56:09.660]just like
[00:56:10.480]you
[00:56:10.740]like others
[00:56:11.500]you know
[00:56:11.860]German
[00:56:12.560]very closely
[00:56:14.480]I follow
[00:56:14.960]what's going
[00:56:15.500]on in
[00:56:16.320]Europe
[00:56:16.620]all the
[00:56:16.960]time
[00:56:17.400]also look
[00:56:19.220]at what's
[00:56:19.620]going on
[00:56:20.120]in Italy
[00:56:20.440]what's going
[00:56:20.960]on in
[00:56:21.220]Austria
[00:56:21.540]and so
[00:56:22.820]on and
[00:56:23.120]so on
[00:56:23.720]I just
[00:56:25.400]want to
[00:56:25.700]before you
[00:56:26.160]try to
[00:56:26.640]answer your
[00:56:27.180]question
[00:56:27.580]say
[00:56:28.120]West
[00:56:29.360]Germany
[00:56:29.760]I think
[00:56:30.500]is still
[00:56:31.080]much more
[00:56:32.120]successful
[00:56:32.680]than other
[00:56:34.300]societies
[00:56:35.260]dealing with
[00:56:36.280]very similar
[00:56:37.280]issues like
[00:56:37.840]the Austrian
[00:56:38.240]society
[00:56:38.760]the Austrian
[00:56:40.840]firewall
[00:56:42.300]if you want
[00:56:42.920]to call it
[00:56:43.500]fell many
[00:56:44.760]times
[00:56:45.240]in its
[00:56:46.180]post
[00:56:46.740]1945
[00:56:47.480]history
[00:56:48.320]the
[00:56:49.380]successor
[00:56:49.960]party of
[00:56:50.520]the Austrian
[00:56:50.940]Nazis
[00:56:51.380]were invited
[00:56:52.880]into coalition
[00:56:53.840]governments
[00:56:54.460]numerous times
[00:56:55.800]and again
[00:56:56.700]are very
[00:56:57.140]still
[00:56:57.480]very close
[00:56:58.420]doing it
[00:56:59.240]again
[00:56:59.520]and potentially
[00:57:00.200]now for a
[00:57:00.880]first time
[00:57:01.480]as Chancellor
[00:57:03.240]of this
[00:57:06.240]far-right
[00:57:06.740]political
[00:57:07.240]party
[00:57:07.620]who is
[00:57:08.120]the successor
[00:57:08.660]party of
[00:57:09.180]the Austrian
[00:57:09.580]Nazis
[00:57:09.900]very clearly
[00:57:10.660]and in
[00:57:12.460]Italy
[00:57:12.800]the firewall
[00:57:14.720]fell in
[00:57:15.260]1990
[00:57:16.160]I remember
[00:57:17.280]this very
[00:57:17.780]well
[00:57:18.260]when
[00:57:19.200]Berlusconi
[00:57:20.060]invited
[00:57:21.280]the successor
[00:57:22.180]party of
[00:57:22.820]the Italian
[00:57:23.280]fascists
[00:57:23.740]the Mussolini
[00:57:24.320]parties
[00:57:24.840]into his
[00:57:27.080]government
[00:57:27.480]and
[00:57:29.080]made
[00:57:30.080]fascism
[00:57:30.960]a normalized
[00:57:32.100]fascism
[00:57:32.880]he was
[00:57:34.100]breaking a
[00:57:34.720]taboo
[00:57:35.080]in Italy
[00:57:35.520]and so
[00:57:38.240]compared to
[00:57:39.160]Italy
[00:57:39.620]with its
[00:57:40.140]history of
[00:57:40.540]fascism
[00:57:40.980]compared to
[00:57:41.580]Austria
[00:57:42.040]with its
[00:57:42.440]history of
[00:57:43.020]the Nazis
[00:57:43.460]very comparable
[00:57:44.280]to Germany
[00:57:44.900]Germany
[00:57:45.980]is
[00:57:46.620]pretty bad
[00:57:47.900]I think
[00:57:48.440]the
[00:57:49.060]Fragament
[00:57:49.420]Heidspervertium
[00:57:50.240]has
[00:57:51.600]some
[00:57:52.180]positive
[00:57:52.740]has many
[00:57:53.320]positive
[00:57:53.840]results
[00:57:54.640]I think
[00:57:55.100]because
[00:57:55.760]the
[00:57:56.760]Fragament
[00:57:57.100]Heidspervertium
[00:57:57.720]in Italy
[00:57:58.240]I can
[00:57:58.800]talk about
[00:57:59.320]this for
[00:57:59.700]hours
[00:58:00.140]the
[00:58:01.240]Fragament
[00:58:01.640]Heidspervertium
[00:58:02.400]in Austria
[00:58:02.940]I also
[00:58:03.380]know very
[00:58:03.820]well
[00:58:04.100]it's very
[00:58:04.500]different
[00:58:04.840]from Germany
[00:58:05.420]in many
[00:58:05.760]many ways
[00:58:06.280]so
[00:58:06.440]in East
[00:58:09.580]Germany
[00:58:09.940]when I
[00:58:10.780]quoted
[00:58:12.340]Weizsäcker
[00:58:13.080]his speech
[00:58:14.860]when he
[00:58:15.460]for the
[00:58:15.780]first
[00:58:15.960]time
[00:58:16.200]in the
[00:58:16.420]1980s
[00:58:17.280]talked
[00:58:17.760]about
[00:58:18.280]the
[00:58:20.620]Nazi
[00:58:21.760]German
[00:58:22.080]surrender
[00:58:22.540]as a
[00:58:22.960]day of
[00:58:23.300]liberation
[00:58:23.860]I said
[00:58:25.240]West
[00:58:25.660]German
[00:58:26.040]president
[00:58:26.620]on purpose
[00:58:27.980]because
[00:58:29.120]this idea
[00:58:29.940]of liberation
[00:58:31.540]that was
[00:58:32.200]that was
[00:58:33.260]common
[00:58:33.700]in the
[00:58:35.080]East
[00:58:35.360]German
[00:58:35.620]official
[00:58:36.000]narrative
[00:58:36.520]right
[00:58:36.900]Soviet
[00:58:38.000]Union
[00:58:38.440]communism
[00:58:39.100]liberated
[00:58:40.240]us
[00:58:40.640]the East
[00:58:41.060]Germans
[00:58:41.540]from
[00:58:42.360]fascism
[00:58:43.040]and
[00:58:44.520]the official
[00:58:45.220]narrative
[00:58:45.840]was
[00:58:46.620]East
[00:58:47.020]Germany
[00:58:47.420]is
[00:58:48.220]the
[00:58:48.600]anti-fascist
[00:58:49.560]state
[00:58:50.040]and
[00:58:50.760]therefore
[00:58:51.400]founded
[00:58:53.320]by
[00:58:53.540]communists
[00:58:54.120]and
[00:58:54.340]liberated
[00:58:54.780]from
[00:58:55.100]the
[00:58:55.320]Soviet
[00:58:55.620]brothers
[00:58:56.040]and
[00:58:56.380]sisters
[00:58:56.760]we
[00:58:58.680]don't
[00:58:58.980]have
[00:58:59.320]to
[00:58:59.680]deal
[00:59:00.920]with
[00:59:01.680]the
[00:59:01.840]Nazi
[00:59:02.120]past
[00:59:02.540]because
[00:59:02.900]we
[00:59:03.160]are
[00:59:03.560]the
[00:59:05.200]opposite
[00:59:05.600]of
[00:59:05.840]the
[00:59:05.980]anti-fascist
[00:59:06.720]state
[00:59:07.000]it's
[00:59:07.340]West
[00:59:07.600]Germany
[00:59:08.000]where
[00:59:08.260]all
[00:59:08.440]these
[00:59:08.620]fascists
[00:59:09.080]are
[00:59:09.380]West
[00:59:09.800]Germany
[00:59:10.140]is
[00:59:10.380]the
[00:59:10.520]successor
[00:59:10.920]state
[00:59:11.320]of
[00:59:11.660]fascism
[00:59:12.480]and
[00:59:12.700]the
[00:59:12.840]Nazis
[00:59:13.160]look at
[00:59:13.740]all
[00:59:13.980]these
[00:59:14.280]Nazi
[00:59:14.860]officials
[00:59:15.360]still
[00:59:15.640]in
[00:59:15.800]power
[00:59:16.160]right
[00:59:16.500]so
[00:59:17.120]in
[00:59:17.300]the
[00:59:17.440]East
[00:59:17.700]it
[00:59:17.880]was
[00:59:18.060]less
[00:59:18.520]people
[00:59:20.500]were
[00:59:20.740]less
[00:59:21.060]confronted
[00:59:21.720]or felt
[00:59:22.240]the need
[00:59:22.680]to
[00:59:22.840]confront
[00:59:23.280]with
[00:59:23.560]this
[00:59:23.780]past
[00:59:24.260]but
[00:59:25.120]the
[00:59:25.300]language
[00:59:25.680]the
[00:59:25.920]official
[00:59:26.180]language
[00:59:26.540]is
[00:59:26.760]very
[00:59:27.000]much
[00:59:27.280]anti-fascist
[00:59:28.040]very
[00:59:28.400]much
[00:59:28.700]earlier
[00:59:29.140]than
[00:59:30.080]in
[00:59:30.380]West
[00:59:30.640]Germany
[00:59:30.980]and
[00:59:34.100]yeah
[00:59:35.020]so
[00:59:35.300]there
[00:59:35.460]was
[00:59:35.640]a
[00:59:35.760]lack
[00:59:35.980]of
[00:59:36.200]Vergangenheits
[00:59:36.980]in
[00:59:37.200]East
[00:59:42.080]Germany
[00:59:42.560]and I
[00:59:43.340]think
[00:59:43.540]that
[00:59:43.820]contributes
[00:59:44.640]to
[00:59:45.040]what
[00:59:45.320]this
[00:59:45.560]is
[00:59:45.760]now
[00:59:46.120]so
[00:59:47.460]there
[00:59:47.920]is
[00:59:48.100]not
[00:59:48.340]this
[00:59:48.540]education
[00:59:49.080]I
[00:59:49.320]can
[00:59:49.480]point
[00:59:49.680]it
[00:59:49.820]out
[00:59:50.000]it
[00:59:50.180]was
[00:59:50.320]everywhere
[00:59:50.780]everybody
[00:59:52.300]in
[00:59:52.780]school
[00:59:53.300]had
[00:59:55.540]to
[00:59:55.760]read
[00:59:56.140]or
[00:59:56.400]to
[00:59:56.660]see
[00:59:57.180]and
[00:59:59.980]so
[01:00:01.320]on
[01:00:01.500]and
[01:00:01.640]so
[01:00:01.780]on
[01:00:01.880]all
[01:00:02.020]these
[01:00:02.200]classes
[01:00:02.600]in
[01:00:02.860]literature
[01:00:03.220]right
[01:00:03.580]and
[01:00:03.720]history
[01:00:05.520]and
[01:00:06.100]all
[01:00:07.320]the
[01:00:07.500]different
[01:00:07.800]fields
[01:00:08.120]of
[01:00:08.300]education
[01:00:08.820]high
[01:00:09.180]school
[01:00:09.440]and
[01:00:09.600]university
[01:00:10.120]and
[01:00:11.040]in
[01:00:11.220]East
[01:00:11.420]Germany
[01:00:11.720]that
[01:00:11.980]wasn't
[01:00:12.240]the
[01:00:12.420]case
[01:00:12.840]and
[01:00:13.640]also
[01:00:13.980]I
[01:00:14.200]think
[01:00:14.400]another
[01:00:14.900]thing
[01:00:15.400]to
[01:00:15.880]keep
[01:00:16.120]in
[01:00:16.260]mind
[01:00:16.640]in
[01:00:17.060]East
[01:00:17.340]Germany
[01:00:17.760]they
[01:00:18.300]had
[01:00:18.500]the
[01:00:18.640]experience
[01:00:19.220]of
[01:00:19.420]two
[01:00:19.640]dictatorships
[01:00:20.460]one
[01:00:21.960]was
[01:00:22.140]the
[01:00:22.280]Nazi
[01:00:22.560]dictatorship
[01:00:23.120]and
[01:00:23.500]the
[01:00:23.760]communist
[01:00:24.340]dictatorship
[01:00:24.880]so
[01:00:26.200]that's
[01:00:27.340]even a
[01:00:28.080]more
[01:00:28.280]complicated
[01:00:28.940]legacy
[01:00:29.460]than
[01:00:30.580]in
[01:00:31.060]the
[01:00:31.220]West
[01:00:31.460]and
[01:00:31.660]I
[01:00:31.840]think
[01:00:32.180]West
[01:00:32.740]Germans
[01:00:33.040]sometimes
[01:00:33.740]or
[01:00:35.140]East
[01:00:35.580]Germans
[01:00:36.020]often
[01:00:36.840]feel
[01:00:37.360]misunderstood
[01:00:38.120]because
[01:00:39.500]their
[01:00:40.620]specific
[01:00:41.200]history
[01:00:41.780]is not
[01:00:42.340]recognized
[01:00:42.960]and
[01:00:43.160]but
[01:00:46.020]yeah
[01:00:46.840]I mean
[01:00:47.500]I look
[01:00:47.900]at the
[01:00:48.160]map
[01:00:48.440]and
[01:00:48.720]yes
[01:00:49.720]yeah
[01:00:51.800]exactly
[01:00:52.680]the dividing
[01:00:53.500]line
[01:00:53.920]here it
[01:00:54.560]happened
[01:00:54.940]here it
[01:00:55.360]didn't
[01:00:55.560]happen
[01:00:55.840]so much
[01:00:56.440]but
[01:00:57.100]there might
[01:00:57.700]be many
[01:00:58.060]other
[01:00:58.360]reasons
[01:00:58.760]I hate
[01:01:01.480]to tell
[01:01:01.860]us but
[01:01:02.280]we are
[01:01:02.800]at time
[01:01:03.600]but
[01:01:03.900]please join
[01:01:04.660]me in
[01:01:04.980]thanking
[01:01:05.280]Dr.
[01:01:05.560]Smith
[01:01:05.900]thank you

The screen size you are trying to search captions on is too small!

You can always jump over to MediaHub and check it out there.

Comments

0 Comments

"'Hitler’s Children': Germany’s Reckoning with its Nazi Past" | CAS Inquire

Description

Searchable Transcript

Comments icon comment

Related Channels

Comments