Not That Kind of Doctor - You've Earned Your Ph.D. - What's Next?
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02/25/2025
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You earned your PhD, dreaming of a career filled with research, deep discussions, and maybe even a sabbatical in Italy. Instead, you're juggling multiple adjunct gigs, grading at midnight, and wondering if your car will survive the commute to campus. Sound familiar?
In this episode of Not That Kind of Doctor, we’re breaking down:
✅ The decline of tenure-track positions
✅ The rise of adjunct jobs & what that means for PhDs
✅ The reality of academia vs. the dream you were sold
✅ How to leverage your PhD outside the university
If you’re questioning whether academia is the right path for you, or just want to know what your options really are, this conversation is for you.
#PhDLife #AcademicJobs #HigherEd #AdjunctCrisis #TenureTrack #LeavingAcademia #PostPhD #CareerTransition #AlternativeCareers #NotThatKindOfDoctor #GradSchool #HigherEducation #PhDToIndustry
You've Earned Your Ph.D. - What's Next? - Not That Kind of Doctor with Nick Husbye and Guy Trainin
www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor
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- [00:00:00.780]So you got the PhD.
- [00:00:03.780]You pictured long,
- [00:00:05.850]thoughtful days in your office,
- [00:00:08.850]maybe a sabbatical in Italy.
- [00:00:11.640]Instead, you're grading papers at midnight
- [00:00:14.550]and juggling three adjunct gigs,
- [00:00:16.410]while hoping your car makes it to campus tomorrow.
- [00:00:19.620]Welcome to academia, the passion-driven hustle
- [00:00:24.647]that no one warned you about.
- [00:00:26.190]Today we're talking about the ugly truths
- [00:00:29.190]behind the life of the mind,
- [00:00:31.170]the decline of tenure, the adjunct crisis,
- [00:00:34.860]and the way academia controls your life
- [00:00:38.446]and what you can do if you're starting to think,
- [00:00:41.430]maybe this isn't for me.
- [00:00:44.808]And if you're wondering what those PhD skills can get you
- [00:00:48.750]outside the university,
- [00:00:50.700]we've got you covered.
- [00:00:52.230]I'm Nick Husbye.
- [00:00:53.220]I'm an associate professor
- [00:00:54.300]of elementary literacy education here at UNL.
- [00:00:57.060]And I'm Guy Trainin, a professor here at UNL.
- [00:00:59.580]And this is not that kind of doctor.
- [00:01:02.043](upbeat music)
- [00:01:10.200]Higher ed.
- [00:01:11.310]Higher ed.
- [00:01:12.540]Feels a bit
- [00:01:14.760]chaotic.
- [00:01:16.350]Yes. At the moment.
- [00:01:18.000]Yes it does.
- [00:01:19.290]At the moment.
- [00:01:21.599]And this is not new.
- [00:01:22.432]So we've actually been
- [00:01:26.822]on this path
- [00:01:27.960]for the last 20 years.
- [00:01:30.213]It has accelerated in, I think, the last
- [00:01:32.460]five, 10,
- [00:01:33.870]five to 10 years.
- [00:01:35.460]I thought you were gonna say five to 10 weeks.
- [00:01:37.140]Yeah, no. That feels right.
- [00:01:38.070]That too. But that feels right.
- [00:01:41.225]But we are definitely seeing a change in academia
- [00:01:44.670]where we have less
- [00:01:45.780]and less people that have tenure,
- [00:01:48.405]tenure leading or permanent jobs.
- [00:01:50.430]And we see a lot of people
- [00:01:52.200]who are just teaching one class here, one class there.
- [00:01:57.036]And to be honest, this is something
- [00:01:58.830]when I was considering going into academia,
- [00:02:01.350]one of the things I stayed away from
- [00:02:03.780]was exactly that choice.
- [00:02:05.130]Because one of the choices I had
- [00:02:07.978]was to go back to Israel and there they said,
- [00:02:11.670]you can have an adjunct job in this university,
- [00:02:14.370]a halftime job at this university,
- [00:02:16.170]and to make ends meet,
- [00:02:17.220]you go to one or two other colleges.
- [00:02:19.710]You're teaching all
- [00:02:20.640]of them while trying to build a research career,
- [00:02:23.280]so you can eventually make it to a tenure line job.
- [00:02:26.490]And that seemed very improbable to me at that time,
- [00:02:29.820]because you're spending just the time
- [00:02:31.860]you spend in the car in transition,
- [00:02:34.260]trying just to think about the next thing
- [00:02:36.420]you need to teach.
- [00:02:37.860]It's a lot.
- [00:02:39.090]Yeah, and so one of the things
- [00:02:41.490]that we've been exploring this year
- [00:02:44.250]on Not That Kind of Doctor,
- [00:02:46.110]has really been not just
- [00:02:49.800]job skills for academia,
- [00:02:51.960]but also exploring the not so great sides of that.
- [00:02:56.940]Yes.
- [00:02:58.261]Which, you know, seems like that was something
- [00:02:59.820]that you very much had to think
- [00:03:01.650]through when you were on the job market,
- [00:03:04.410]because the reality is right now,
- [00:03:07.770]like the job market is,
- [00:03:11.340]just changed
- [00:03:12.690]and it's not the meritocracy
- [00:03:15.303]that we're often convinced it will be, right?
- [00:03:18.510]Like there are systemic things
- [00:03:20.550]that are impacting the number of potential tenure track jobs
- [00:03:25.890]that are out there.
- [00:03:27.905]Right now across academia,
- [00:03:31.080]about 70% of faculty positions are non-tenure track.
- [00:03:36.720]So that seven out of 10 jobs are non-tenure track
- [00:03:42.870]To balance that,
- [00:03:44.190]most people who do these non-tenure tracked jobs
- [00:03:47.400]are working in multiple
- [00:03:48.660]institution or doing it as,
- [00:03:51.625]so a lot of adjuncts are adjuncting as a side hustle.
- [00:03:55.230]So they teach high school during the day
- [00:03:57.780]and one class in computer science at night,
- [00:04:01.998]at a metro community college in Omaha, for example.
- [00:04:05.163]Well, and I think that's true in education.
- [00:04:06.369]Yes.
- [00:04:07.202]I don't know how true that is in other fields.
- [00:04:09.697]So you'll see like people
- [00:04:11.880]who are in engineering.
- [00:04:13.950]Yeah. Right?
- [00:04:14.783]People who are in biomedical sciences
- [00:04:19.050]and one of the reasons for that
- [00:04:22.595]is universities have increasingly relied on adjuncts
- [00:04:28.058]as cheap flexible labor, right?
- [00:04:31.260]One of the budget models that you have
- [00:04:33.540]to consider when you're thinking about an institution
- [00:04:37.909]is faculty cost of salary plus benefits,
- [00:04:41.670]plus all of that is a hard line in their budget, right?
- [00:04:46.020]So that's not, there's no flexibility around
- [00:04:49.380]that particular number.
- [00:04:51.150]And administrators like flexibility.
- [00:04:54.859]And so adjuncts allow
- [00:04:58.177]for that financial flexibility.
- [00:05:02.190]And because of that, we're seeing,
- [00:05:04.710]because of shrinking university budgets,
- [00:05:06.750]a variety of reasons.
- [00:05:07.680]Like it is a Sharknado of.
- [00:05:11.580]Yes.
- [00:05:12.570]Ah, weird, crazy stuff that's impacting the system
- [00:05:17.701]that a job seeker might experience as, oh, it's about me.
- [00:05:20.730]No, it's not about you, it's about the system.
- [00:05:23.926]Because tenure track jobs
- [00:05:27.472]are on the extinction list.
- [00:05:29.434]Like they're continuing,
- [00:05:30.420]there are fewer and fewer.
- [00:05:34.324]And so when we say,
- [00:05:36.791]if you are experiencing a lack
- [00:05:37.830]of success on the job market,
- [00:05:42.000]it's not a personal failing.
- [00:05:43.560]Like particularly if you are putting energy
- [00:05:46.680]into your search and you're really trying
- [00:05:50.624]to craft your materials for a search committee,
- [00:05:54.600]part of it is the system's broken,
- [00:05:58.591]like higher education is highly fragmented.
- [00:06:01.620]And at this point,
- [00:06:05.298]with funding being in question
- [00:06:08.490]and especially for public institutions,
- [00:06:09.690]which is most or many vast majority of institutions
- [00:06:13.500]around the country, at all level,
- [00:06:15.390]from community college
- [00:06:16.590]all the way to research intensive universities
- [00:06:20.070]and everything in between, there's less support.
- [00:06:24.120]And that less support means they have
- [00:06:25.950]to rely more on flexible hiring.
- [00:06:30.323]And so they're publishing less positions.
- [00:06:33.690]In some states, tenure is just going away by law.
- [00:06:37.050]And so all of these structures are starting to go away.
- [00:06:40.740]Now, we don't want to depress you,
- [00:06:42.210]there are still tenure line jobs
- [00:06:43.950]and this is still an option, but what we are saying is,
- [00:06:48.210]or at least I'm saying is,
- [00:06:50.030]if that is your goal,
- [00:06:52.080]then you have to start structuring your program
- [00:06:55.410]to make sure you have maximum ability to get those jobs.
- [00:06:59.790]It means you have to be more competitive.
- [00:07:03.254]And I think about how I exited my program
- [00:07:06.732]with a couple of publications and presentations.
- [00:07:10.740]And I've taught a few times,
- [00:07:12.300]and that was good enough to get
- [00:07:14.730]a job at a research intensive university.
- [00:07:16.830]I don't think we would hire me
- [00:07:18.600]the way I looked then, here now.
- [00:07:21.090]This is not enough now.
- [00:07:22.620]So when I talk to my graduate students,
- [00:07:24.900]my doctoral students, I say, if you want university jobs,
- [00:07:28.350]you need to have all of these things in play.
- [00:07:31.650]But that is not the only option.
- [00:07:33.210]So we always prepare to potentially get a university job,
- [00:07:38.130]here's what you need.
- [00:07:39.030]Here are the experiences you need
- [00:07:40.260]to have and the outputs that are there.
- [00:07:43.080]But also think about what are the other options?
- [00:07:46.350]Where are the opportunities that you can go
- [00:07:49.110]after that allow you to have another version,
- [00:07:52.590]another door you can open towards a successful career.
- [00:07:55.950]Well, and I think that's,
- [00:07:58.186]when choosing this topic,
- [00:08:00.450]it's not that I want to tell anyone,
- [00:08:03.600]oh, don't go for a tenure track job
- [00:08:06.300]because I mean, the irony of this is both you
- [00:08:09.030]and I are in tenure track positions right now, right?
- [00:08:12.360]Yes.
- [00:08:15.645]But I wish someone
- [00:08:18.210]in my own doctoral program
- [00:08:22.734]had said something about, look,
- [00:08:24.870]here's some of the other things that you can do with this,
- [00:08:28.959]because I've seen far too many people
- [00:08:33.401]get trapped
- [00:08:36.185]in this
- [00:08:37.230]cycle of, oh, if I just get one more publication out,
- [00:08:41.550]I'll be that much more competitive on the market.
- [00:08:44.467]And da, da, da, da.
- [00:08:48.180]And we'll talk about this identity work later,
- [00:08:52.860]but there's this cycle of, oh, I'm not good enough,
- [00:08:56.910]but if I do this one extra thing,
- [00:08:58.410]it's like this hamster wheel that never stops spinning.
- [00:09:01.350]Yes, very much.
- [00:09:02.397]And I wish someone would've told me that there's an option
- [00:09:06.870]to get off that hamster wheel
- [00:09:08.880]and that it is a, a valid option.
- [00:09:11.580]That if you don't work
- [00:09:14.880]in academia,
- [00:09:16.770]you are still worthy of that degree.
- [00:09:18.990]You're still fine.
- [00:09:21.060]Yeah.
- [00:09:21.893]Because that's not the message.
- [00:09:23.880]Yeah.
- [00:09:24.953]That academia sends.
- [00:09:26.010]Yeah.
- [00:09:28.099]And one of the advantages of being part
- [00:09:29.370]of the Innovative Learning Technologies
- [00:09:32.130]program here at UNL is that that group
- [00:09:35.670]and our thinking has always been about multiple options.
- [00:09:40.140]So it's an easier conversation to have,
- [00:09:42.570]because we've always had it.
- [00:09:46.419]And because there are lots of good industry jobs
- [00:09:48.930]that are actually better paying than a higher education,
- [00:09:52.920]somewhat less stressful, other,
- [00:09:55.290]there are other advantages
- [00:09:57.630]and disadvantages there,
- [00:09:58.800]but these options were always there.
- [00:10:01.110]All right, so as we're thinking about this,
- [00:10:05.333]what are some of the things you think about?
- [00:10:07.680]Why would somebody start thinking
- [00:10:10.140]very early on about other options outside academia?
- [00:10:16.565]So I think if we're thinking about the EDD
- [00:10:19.217]or the PhD as workforce development, right?
- [00:10:23.820]Like it's really, I always start any conversation
- [00:10:27.840]with a new graduate student with
- [00:10:29.190]what do you wanna do after this degree?
- [00:10:32.310]And that always, it's interesting the response that I get
- [00:10:36.450]to that question because it will be,
- [00:10:38.370]well, I wanna learn about this.
- [00:10:39.690]Yeah, but what do you want to do?
- [00:10:41.640]Like this should allow you
- [00:10:42.780]to do something different in the world.
- [00:10:45.180]Yeah.
- [00:10:46.013]Talk to me about the skillset.
- [00:10:46.846]Talk to me about those kinds of things,
- [00:10:49.110]because I wish that those were the conversations I had had.
- [00:10:53.670]And so when I'm thinking about supporting that work
- [00:10:58.290]and thinking about the soft skills
- [00:11:01.440]that they might need in order
- [00:11:04.253]to move into something else, right?
- [00:11:06.690]In academia, you get very specific
- [00:11:10.583]in your graduate program.
- [00:11:12.480]How do you begin
- [00:11:16.416]to talk about generalizable skills,
- [00:11:18.000]skills that other people might be looking for?
- [00:11:22.721]And in education there's always like,
- [00:11:24.270]you can always go and teach.
- [00:11:27.270]Yeah. Right?
- [00:11:28.380]At a high school or an elementary
- [00:11:30.180]or a middle school.
- [00:11:31.500]But what are some other options out there,
- [00:11:33.360]for those folks who,
- [00:11:35.400]I know I myself have felt somewhat trapped
- [00:11:37.620]by my education degree.
- [00:11:39.090]Like what else can I do?
- [00:11:43.283]And have been thinking through ways
- [00:11:45.180]to reframe my skillset.
- [00:11:46.980]And so I work really, really hard with my grad students
- [00:11:51.000]to do that work.
- [00:11:52.710]And it sounds like you do as well.
- [00:11:54.300]Yeah.
- [00:11:57.459]And with technology comes the technology skills.
- [00:11:59.610]So the design skills, the writing skills
- [00:12:02.220]that come with it are really, really fantastic.
- [00:12:06.000]The ability to write curriculum
- [00:12:07.350]and writing curriculum does not necessarily mean just write
- [00:12:10.050]curriculum for fourth grade science.
- [00:12:12.270]It's translatable to writing curriculum
- [00:12:15.660]in corporate environments
- [00:12:17.280]where they're trying to design their,
- [00:12:20.430]sometimes it's staff onboarding,
- [00:12:22.950]but often, especially companies that do financial consulting
- [00:12:28.140]and those kind of things,
- [00:12:29.370]they actually want to educate their clients.
- [00:12:32.880]So they need somebody that can write
- [00:12:35.100]the kind of curriculum that actually appeals
- [00:12:37.620]and explains key concepts to a large audience
- [00:12:41.070]that is just their clients.
- [00:12:44.847]And you can reach millions of people,
- [00:12:46.710]often through digital platforms, but not exclusively.
- [00:12:49.890]There are seminars, there are,
- [00:12:51.240]you can design a whole host
- [00:12:52.680]of things and that's something
- [00:12:56.511]that is easily translatable.
- [00:12:57.720]And actually they're looking for those skills
- [00:12:59.340]and they're not easy to find.
- [00:13:00.870]Yeah, no, they're not.
- [00:13:01.890]So we'll talk a little bit more
- [00:13:03.930]about how to translate that
- [00:13:05.040]from an academic ease into, you know, more general
- [00:13:10.290]points to,
- [00:13:11.700]if that's a direction that you're thinking about going in,
- [00:13:14.520]that you can go in.
- [00:13:18.180]But first, let's have some real talk.
- [00:13:21.480]All right.
- [00:13:22.950]About like academia
- [00:13:26.722]and what are some of the things that,
- [00:13:31.710]how does academia,
- [00:13:34.150]a job in academia sometimes hamper you
- [00:13:36.750]in terms of the life that you might wanna live for yourself?
- [00:13:39.720]So one, I'm thinking about, you know,
- [00:13:42.540]geographic imprisonment,
- [00:13:45.750]right?
- [00:13:46.583]When you are an academic,
- [00:13:49.920]you have to go where the job is.
- [00:13:52.726]Yeah.
- [00:13:53.559]It's not as though you can go to the mall
- [00:13:56.550]and apply at a couple of different stores
- [00:13:58.290]and work within that mall.
- [00:13:59.700]You have to go where the institution is,
- [00:14:04.983]and what do you do
- [00:14:06.480]when it's not someplace you wanna live?
- [00:14:09.210]Like, do you want your job to have
- [00:14:10.740]that much control of your life?
- [00:14:12.360]This is a genuine question.
- [00:14:14.100]Yes, and depending on your life circumstances,
- [00:14:17.550]if you are taking care of a family member,
- [00:14:19.710]whether it's aging parents or somebody with a disability
- [00:14:24.390]or anything like that,
- [00:14:26.010]that limits your ability.
- [00:14:27.390]Suddenly you have to go back
- [00:14:30.484]or you have to think about whether they can move.
- [00:14:32.850]I mean, they can move with you.
- [00:14:35.910]We make decisions.
- [00:14:37.140]I mean, if you're young enough,
- [00:14:38.430]it's often not a question,
- [00:14:40.140]but the older you get,
- [00:14:41.220]the more life circumstances dictate geography.
- [00:14:45.090]And our jobs are definitely,
- [00:14:46.890]I mean, it's one of the first questions I ask
- [00:14:48.810]when people say,
- [00:14:49.643]I want a career in academia.
- [00:14:51.117]And the second question
- [00:14:52.560]after that is how likely are you to be able to move?
- [00:14:57.450]How much do you want to move?
- [00:15:00.418]Because most likely, if you want a job in academia
- [00:15:02.520]and you're looking around in Nebraska,
- [00:15:04.290]there aren't that many opportunities.
- [00:15:07.681]And so you have to think nationally
- [00:15:08.970]or almost internationally at this point.
- [00:15:12.462]And so you've got to make that choice.
- [00:15:13.830]So geography matters a lot.
- [00:15:15.540]Yeah, no, geography totally matters.
- [00:15:17.160]And if you decide to stay somewhere
- [00:15:20.340]and a tenure track job is like what you want,
- [00:15:23.490]if that's not available.
- [00:15:24.935]What do you do?
- [00:15:25.966]What are you doing, right? Yes.
- [00:15:27.780]And that leads me to the second thing.
- [00:15:29.400]And that is that,
- [00:15:31.860]often we, I really invest,
- [00:15:34.320]especially as part of the process
- [00:15:36.630]of becoming a doctoral student and then candidacy
- [00:15:40.110]and all of these tips is we build an identity
- [00:15:42.930]and often we start telling others
- [00:15:44.850]and ourselves a story about how we're going
- [00:15:46.770]to become an academic.
- [00:15:48.030]And that doesn't always work out.
- [00:15:50.010]And there's this sense of failure that kind
- [00:15:52.320]of coats you in a way.
- [00:15:54.510]Well, and it sets you up
- [00:15:56.531]for some unhealthy boundaries, right?
- [00:15:58.591]Yeah.
- [00:15:59.424]Like when your work becomes your entire identity,
- [00:16:01.920]we're still gonna get you some hobbies.
- [00:16:03.930]Yes. By the way,
- [00:16:05.577]I knew that was coming. Still working on that.
- [00:16:08.700]But like when, I remember Julie Russ talking about this
- [00:16:12.570]on our episode a a while back around
- [00:16:15.450]jobs outside of academia
- [00:16:16.920]and that notion of
- [00:16:20.520]when your job becomes your life
- [00:16:25.380]or the job that you want
- [00:16:26.520]to have becomes your life,
- [00:16:27.630]when you don't have that job,
- [00:16:29.340]there's a lot of fallow.
- [00:16:30.450]There's a lot of potential
- [00:16:31.650]for some really rich conversations with a therapist.
- [00:16:35.790]And so it's helpful, I think,
- [00:16:38.866]to separate those things out
- [00:16:42.360]and be very clear about,
- [00:16:44.010]these are my work boundaries,
- [00:16:45.780]these are my personal boundaries.
- [00:16:48.570]These two things are not going to, you know,
- [00:16:52.920]collide very much.
- [00:16:53.970]Like these are my work hours.
- [00:16:56.760]There's a lot of
- [00:16:59.850]emotion attached to that, right?
- [00:17:01.500]Like you go into an EDD program or a PhD program
- [00:17:06.330]thinking about this idealized
- [00:17:08.790]self that you're going to emerge on the other end of,
- [00:17:15.415]and you know, it's gonna be filled with, you know,
- [00:17:16.980]oh, sabbaticals and thinking and all these things.
- [00:17:20.250]And that's not the reality.
- [00:17:22.050]Yeah, and even if you become
- [00:17:25.680]a tenure track person and you start moving through,
- [00:17:29.490]you find out very quickly
- [00:17:31.911]that the intellectual life you dreamt about,
- [00:17:34.050]sitting with colleagues, chatting about big ideas,
- [00:17:37.890]and all of that,
- [00:17:39.556]that is literally 2%
- [00:17:40.440]of the time you're gonna spend.
- [00:17:41.700]It's just, nobody's got the time.
- [00:17:44.250]You are never in the same space at the same time.
- [00:17:46.740]There is no Parisian salons
- [00:17:49.742]where everybody sits, drinks and discusses things.
- [00:17:52.050]It just doesn't happen anymore.
- [00:17:53.460]No.
- [00:17:54.293]Maybe it happened once.
- [00:17:55.126]It does not anymore.
- [00:17:56.646]That is not the reality.
- [00:17:58.470]And so like there's that notion of like FOMO,
- [00:18:02.130]like, oh, I'm missing out on that life.
- [00:18:03.420]That life doesn't exist.
- [00:18:04.320]Or if it does exist,
- [00:18:05.220]it exists for a very small population of academics.
- [00:18:09.090]That doesn't exist for me.
- [00:18:10.500]No, it does not. Right?
- [00:18:11.893]I've got a program I need to run.
- [00:18:14.700]Graduate students, undergraduate students, classes.
- [00:18:17.250]Things that need to get written.
- [00:18:20.350]Like, it's a grind.
- [00:18:22.500]It's a grind.
- [00:18:26.088]And so that emotional burnout
- [00:18:29.825]that you may feel as you are, you know,
- [00:18:31.380]trying to attempt this job thing is real.
- [00:18:37.505]And I want to reiterate, again, based upon the patterns
- [00:18:40.710]that are happening in higher education.
- [00:18:42.150]And this is not to be, this is not meant to be a downer,
- [00:18:44.730]but this is meant to be kind of a reality check.
- [00:18:51.840]It's probably not you, it's the system.
- [00:18:55.770]Yeah.
- [00:18:57.690]And that is
- [00:19:00.570]hard to deal with,
- [00:19:03.171]because, oh, if I just publish one more thing,
- [00:19:05.760]if I just present at one more conference,
- [00:19:07.620]if I just take on this additional like.
- [00:19:10.140]Service role. Service role.
- [00:19:12.575]Like there's this myth of meritocracy
- [00:19:15.714]and that's just not there.
- [00:19:19.110]And so, as you're working through your program,
- [00:19:23.550]your graduate program, like you want to be thinking
- [00:19:26.640]through other metrics for your worth other than,
- [00:19:31.500]oh, I got a job in academia
- [00:19:34.230]on the tenure track or however that works,
- [00:19:38.886]like exist within that dream, right?
- [00:19:41.580]And if a point comes where
- [00:19:44.031]that doesn't look like it's gonna be a possibility for you,
- [00:19:46.590]grieve that dream, but don't let it drive you.
- [00:19:50.370]And I would push even further
- [00:19:51.870]and say from the get go, have a few plans,
- [00:19:55.650]have a few goals.
- [00:19:58.409]And I want this,
- [00:19:59.460]but I'm also thinking about this.
- [00:20:01.320]So have that alternative always there,
- [00:20:03.870]because you also want the path to prepare you
- [00:20:06.930]for those alternatives.
- [00:20:08.280]So the more intentional you are
- [00:20:10.080]and you look at the world of jobs that are available
- [00:20:13.230]and you talk to people and you talk to graduates
- [00:20:16.430]and whatever opportunities there are,
- [00:20:17.880]you also start thinking about, okay,
- [00:20:20.040]I want to make sure,
- [00:20:20.873]I want to be able this thing, so I need a few experiences.
- [00:20:23.970]So if I apply to a job in that thing,
- [00:20:25.770]I've got something to show.
- [00:20:27.030]There's a portfolio of work that I can show
- [00:20:29.910]that is relevant for that job.
- [00:20:32.160]So I would love to know a little bit about
- [00:20:34.740]how you separate
- [00:20:36.930]or do you separate?
- [00:20:38.970]What?
- [00:20:39.803]Your concept of, this is my worth,
- [00:20:41.760]this is my value as a person
- [00:20:44.010]and your professional job title.
- [00:20:47.058]How you think about separating those two things?
- [00:20:50.880]Or do you?
- [00:20:54.060]Yeah, completely.
- [00:20:57.278]I do a lot of work.
- [00:20:59.220]So from a time perspective,
- [00:21:00.930]I'm mostly professor, at this point in my life.
- [00:21:03.690]But there were other points in my life.
- [00:21:05.220]So when I had younger kids, I have my family
- [00:21:08.560]and friends time and I have my,
- [00:21:11.940]I'm at work time,
- [00:21:14.213]and I try to separate.
- [00:21:15.046]One of the places where I have a lot
- [00:21:16.650]of separation is, for example, weekend.
- [00:21:18.210]I mean we talked about time.
- [00:21:19.800]My weekends are mostly work free.
- [00:21:22.080]So I try not to do work on weekends,
- [00:21:24.360]unless there's a workshop that has been planned
- [00:21:26.880]as part of a grant I right now have.
- [00:21:30.000]And then I spend a Saturday once every
- [00:21:32.310]three weeks on campus.
- [00:21:33.600]But the rest of the time I'm not reading my emails,
- [00:21:36.240]but more to the point,
- [00:21:37.260]I'm not writing and there is no plans.
- [00:21:39.240]So I also don't feel guilty when I don't do it.
- [00:21:41.850]So I have a very clear separation there.
- [00:21:44.160]I've, you know, right now with a granddaughter.
- [00:21:46.830]Granddaughter time, Suzi is protected time.
- [00:21:49.470]So even if I have a plan with a graduate student,
- [00:21:51.690]they know that if I text Suzi time, that's it.
- [00:21:55.170]So what I find inter. Time off,
- [00:21:56.220]What I find interesting here Yes.
- [00:21:58.144]Is you're talking about time.
- [00:21:59.460]Yes. Versus identity
- [00:22:03.180]Because the separation in time separates identity.
- [00:22:06.660]That is, there's a time when I'm a grandfather
- [00:22:11.604]or a family person or whatever
- [00:22:13.890]and there's a time where I am the professor.
- [00:22:17.769]So that's how I think about it.
- [00:22:19.260]Okay.
- [00:22:20.640]But I don't have two identities.
- [00:22:22.080]I have one.
- [00:22:24.300]I'm me.
- [00:22:25.380]Yeah, that that is true.
- [00:22:27.570]That is very true.
- [00:22:29.100]And I often worry that he overworks.
- [00:22:31.770]'Cause he does.
- [00:22:33.630]I may be, but there are multiple
- [00:22:36.030]other reasons for that, so.
- [00:22:38.580]Anyway.
- [00:22:39.720]Your drive to people, please.
- [00:22:42.600]That's part of it.
- [00:22:44.850]Definitely.
- [00:22:46.260]Welcome to therapy with Nick and Guy.
- [00:22:49.590]Super fun.
- [00:22:51.060]All right, so let's talk through.
- [00:22:55.200]Let's say that you're having this
- [00:22:56.460]conversation in your head now.
- [00:22:57.780]Like, oh my gosh, what else do I do?
- [00:23:00.630]I'm gonna be real honest, I've been there.
- [00:23:03.390]I'm currently there.
- [00:23:05.430]Like what else could I do with my life if I wanted to?
- [00:23:09.750]I don't, I'm grappling with this middle age thing.
- [00:23:13.530]Yeah.
- [00:23:15.150]And just,
- [00:23:17.910]am I done?
- [00:23:18.900]I know I'm out of my formative years.
- [00:23:21.060]Yes.
- [00:23:22.080]But what else could I do differently?
- [00:23:24.975]So I've been thinking a lot about like
- [00:23:25.920]translational work, right?
- [00:23:28.713]And what does that look like?
- [00:23:29.546]How could I talk differently to people?
- [00:23:32.505]And one of the really interesting things I think
- [00:23:38.940]is my own ignorance around what people do for work.
- [00:23:43.260]Yes. Like the job market fog
- [00:23:48.042]is real.
- [00:23:49.260]Like academics,
- [00:23:51.810]I've seen that work.
- [00:23:53.190]I know what that work is.
- [00:23:54.840]Teachers, I've seen that work.
- [00:23:56.370]I know what work that work is.
- [00:23:59.940]Service jobs. Yeah.
- [00:24:01.290]I've like. Yeah.
- [00:24:02.880]Cops. Yeah.
- [00:24:04.710]Bus drivers.
- [00:24:06.150]The things that are visible to us.
- [00:24:07.089]The things that are visible.
- [00:24:07.980]Yeah.
- [00:24:08.813]And so part of what I've been
- [00:24:11.970]thinking about recently is one,
- [00:24:15.270]LinkedIn is a chaotic hellscape.
- [00:24:20.255]In what way?
- [00:24:21.600]It's turned into like Facebook
- [00:24:25.410]and I don't care about probably 80% of what's posted on it.
- [00:24:31.530]Okay.
- [00:24:32.430]It's just become weird.
- [00:24:34.980]But it's still a decent place to find a job.
- [00:24:37.670]Or to look at what skills people are looking for.
- [00:24:39.280]Well, so that's what I've been doing.
- [00:24:40.590]Like I've been looking at, okay, what are people doing?
- [00:24:44.250]What are the things that they, you know,
- [00:24:49.237]are claiming to do?
- [00:24:50.550]What are the things that job postings
- [00:24:52.530]that aren't in academia are asking?
- [00:24:55.830]And that has been really helpful.
- [00:24:59.400]It's been really helpful to help me think through,
- [00:25:03.660]oh, you know what I research.
- [00:25:07.740]I am good at data analysis.
- [00:25:10.650]I can take a spreadsheet and do things with it.
- [00:25:14.940]Not as much as you could, but I can do some stuff.
- [00:25:17.880]Yeah.
- [00:25:19.236]I am capable
- [00:25:22.038]with a minimal level.
- [00:25:23.400]Am I working on getting better at that?
- [00:25:24.780]Yes.
- [00:25:26.340]Market research, I can do that.
- [00:25:28.380]I can talk to people, have talked to people.
- [00:25:31.290]Yeah, and there's actually quite a bit of demand
- [00:25:33.810]for qualitative analysis of interviews,
- [00:25:39.005]of responses.
- [00:25:39.838]So there's actually room
- [00:25:43.708]for the very deep skills
- [00:25:44.670]that you get in graduate school from a research perspective
- [00:25:47.400]to find their way into analytic jobs in the workplace.
- [00:25:51.750]Yeah.
- [00:25:52.583]And even if like, even thinking about like things like,
- [00:25:57.823]oh, I teach, right?
- [00:25:59.010]You mentioned before, corporate training.
- [00:26:01.020]Yeah, absolutely.
- [00:26:02.137]Totally a space,
- [00:26:04.282]because most trainings suck.
- [00:26:07.200]Yes, they do. Let's be real.
- [00:26:11.107]So if you have a solid grasp of pedagogy
- [00:26:13.740]and how to make that happen,
- [00:26:16.290]like wow, you could be
- [00:26:19.440]in charge of learning and development.
- [00:26:22.375]You could be running those kinds of things.
- [00:26:25.350]Writing is something that you do as a grad student
- [00:26:30.060]and turn around things rather quickly.
- [00:26:31.920]So content development, working as a grant writer,
- [00:26:35.250]there's all these options.
- [00:26:38.351]And then when you're thinking about your dissertation,
- [00:26:40.320]project management,
- [00:26:42.480]Yes.
- [00:26:43.313]Totally project management,
- [00:26:44.460]which, how's your project managing going?
- [00:26:46.890]Very good, very well.
- [00:26:48.300]You were using.
- [00:26:49.133]I'm using planner.
- [00:26:50.010]Yep.
- [00:26:50.843]And I have also a publication queue
- [00:26:55.140]that's been simplified.
- [00:26:56.430]So yes, a lot of project management skills.
- [00:26:58.980]And that may happen when you're doing your dissertation,
- [00:27:01.080]but if you're working as a research assistant,
- [00:27:02.970]you're definitely doing project management.
- [00:27:05.190]And you get a window.
- [00:27:06.330]And when you're doing your dissertation,
- [00:27:07.650]like you are the person driving that project.
- [00:27:09.990]So you're able, so you can say
- [00:27:11.430]that you do that independently.
- [00:27:13.080]So it's these translational pieces
- [00:27:15.420]that are important.
- [00:27:19.801]And Annie Duke quit.
- [00:27:21.300]Have I mentioned this book?
- [00:27:22.230]Yes, I have. Yes.
- [00:27:23.850]I really enjoyed this book. Yes.
- [00:27:26.028]And one of the things that I enjoyed
- [00:27:27.000]were quit criteria.
- [00:27:28.710]She lays out this idea
- [00:27:32.256]that in order
- [00:27:35.072]to move on to bigger and better experiences,
- [00:27:37.380]or at least different experiences,
- [00:27:38.970]you have to have some quick criteria.
- [00:27:41.460]Yeah. When to walk away.
- [00:27:43.620]Yes.
- [00:27:44.543]And be okay with walking away.
- [00:27:50.421]And I think it's really important
- [00:27:52.650]to set those particularly.
- [00:27:54.690]Absolutely.
- [00:27:55.770]Around this kind of work,
- [00:27:57.420]because you could be applying to jobs forever
- [00:28:02.280]and delaying your life forever.
- [00:28:05.130]Yeah.
- [00:28:05.963]Because that job never comes along.
- [00:28:07.860]And make do with the small adjuncting
- [00:28:10.710]and barely making it and just continuing.
- [00:28:13.200]And there's a point, you definitely have
- [00:28:14.970]to have a point where you're.
- [00:28:16.470]Right.
- [00:28:17.303]Also, side note,
- [00:28:18.870]both of us are very committed to ensuring
- [00:28:22.110]that adjunct faculty are elevated
- [00:28:25.393]within our institution.
- [00:28:27.120]So I wanna also address that.
- [00:28:29.921]We're not just saying,
- [00:28:31.020]oh, it's so bad.
- [00:28:32.953]We recognize that and are actively working
- [00:28:35.790]within our institutions
- [00:28:37.470]and realms of influence in order to change that.
- [00:28:44.599]So I think it's really important to set
- [00:28:46.500]those quick criteria.
- [00:28:48.060]Yeah. Right.
- [00:28:49.347]Like after what point are you moving on
- [00:28:51.210]and you're going to be okay with it.
- [00:28:53.790]Right? Yeah.
- [00:28:54.623]Like that's been really interesting
- [00:28:57.000]as I'm thinking about the higher ed climate, like.
- [00:29:02.280]Yeah, and that applies even if you do have
- [00:29:04.590]a tenure leading job.
- [00:29:05.820]Right. If this is not working out,
- [00:29:08.190]and we talked about this in other episodes.
- [00:29:10.830]If it's not working out, have a quit criteria.
- [00:29:13.530]Yeah.
- [00:29:15.091]Do the analysis that we talked about.
- [00:29:15.924]Is it you or is it the location you're at?
- [00:29:19.920]And then set a quit criteria,
- [00:29:21.180]whether that's that specific job or academia in general.
- [00:29:25.110]I've had
- [00:29:26.880]colleagues and friends who said, you know,
- [00:29:30.510]I've realized this is not for me.
- [00:29:32.250]I'm moving on.
- [00:29:33.210]Got a really good job and are happy.
- [00:29:37.978]So there's a point where you have to also account
- [00:29:40.110]for your unhappiness.
- [00:29:41.670]Right.
- [00:29:42.503]Well, and also this notion of like,
- [00:29:43.950]no job's gonna make you a hundred percent happy.
- [00:29:45.600]Like if that's like, work is labor.
- [00:29:49.170]Yes.
- [00:29:50.003]I don't know who that,
- [00:29:51.960]I don't know for whom labor makes them happy.
- [00:29:53.730]And I think that's one of those myths that we have to like,
- [00:29:56.730]oh, knock it off.
- [00:30:00.639]Okay.
- [00:30:02.190]It does make me happy.
- [00:30:03.630]Well, I mean, look.
- [00:30:06.255]The work I get to do makes me happy.
- [00:30:07.906]The work you get to do.
- [00:30:08.958]Yes.
- [00:30:09.791]Makes you happy.
- [00:30:10.624]Most of the time, not all of the time.
- [00:30:11.794]So. Yes.
- [00:30:15.349]But like what's the level of happiness to be expected?
- [00:30:18.060]Not everything is gonna make you ecstatic.
- [00:30:19.560]Yes.
- [00:30:20.425]If I'm happy with my job, you know, half the time.
- [00:30:22.920]Yeah.
- [00:30:23.992]I feel like I'm.
- [00:30:24.825]That's a pretty.
- [00:30:25.658]That fantastic.
- [00:30:26.491]I feel that's you pretty solid.
- [00:30:27.324]So, okay.
- [00:30:29.520]So in this episode we've gotten real
- [00:30:33.030]about some academic realities of the job market.
- [00:30:38.250]And I just wanna end with this idea
- [00:30:40.740]that sometimes the bravest move
- [00:30:42.990]that you can make is knowing when to stop,
- [00:30:47.790]knowing when to move into something else.
- [00:30:51.282]And whether you stay in the job market,
- [00:30:54.720]you pivot or you just leave.
- [00:30:58.110]You know, your skills, your work
- [00:31:01.380]and the quality of your life matters.
- [00:31:05.730]And so if you are at the point
- [00:31:07.500]of wondering exactly what's next,
- [00:31:09.930]you have to know that there are multiple paths
- [00:31:13.686]and that none of them,
- [00:31:15.030]whether you stay in academia
- [00:31:16.200]and go outside of academia, mean you have failed.
- [00:31:19.140]Often it is because the system itself is broken
- [00:31:24.714]and it does not allow the same opportunities it used to.
- [00:31:27.810]Right.
- [00:31:28.740]And so if you found any
- [00:31:30.030]of this conversation helpful and hopefully you have,
- [00:31:34.560]or you've made this leap yourself,
- [00:31:36.090]we'd love to hear from you.
- [00:31:37.590]You know, so let us know your story in the comments,
- [00:31:40.020]what are you thinking about or reach out.
- [00:31:46.056]And we wanna be a space where,
- [00:31:48.840]we're talking honestly about not only
- [00:31:53.130]the good stuff,
- [00:31:54.450]but also wrestling with some of the stuff that's not shiny
- [00:31:58.380]and glittery and ooh, pretty.
- [00:32:02.880]'Cause we don't wanna lie to you.
- [00:32:04.020]Life is too short.
- [00:32:05.160]And then you have to remember the lie
- [00:32:06.360]and it just doesn't work.
- [00:32:08.580]And don't forget,
- [00:32:09.540]we've got earlier episodes talking about living academia.
- [00:32:12.510]We've got an episode with Dr. Julie Rust and Dave Lewis
- [00:32:16.440]who shared their journeys beyond academia.
- [00:32:19.290]We both are in academia.
- [00:32:21.450]So we think it's important
- [00:32:23.160]to bring other voices.
- [00:32:25.050]Let's say, not just that it's okay, you can really flourish.
- [00:32:27.900]And there are great opportunities out there.
- [00:32:30.180]I mean, I want Dave's life.
- [00:32:33.000]He just seems so happy.
- [00:32:36.150]So thank you for watching Not That Kind of Doctor.
- [00:32:38.700]Until next time.
- [00:32:39.960]Keep questioning, keep growing.
- [00:32:43.236]And please remember that you are more,
- [00:32:45.660]you are more than your job title.
- [00:32:48.630]I did know that.
- [00:32:49.463]And you are more than your job title.
- [00:32:51.540]We'll see you in the next one.
- [00:32:53.796](upbeat music)
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