Not That Kind of Doctor - Expertise: Generalist and Specialist
TLTE
Author
02/03/2025
Added
1
Plays
Description
Is academia too focused on specialists? What if the real breakthroughs come from thinking broadly rather than digging deeper?
In this episode of Not That Kind of Doctor, we’re joined by Wendy Saul and Angela Kohnen to explore why generalist literacies matter in academia and how they can reshape graduate education, research, and publishing.
🔎 In this video, we discuss:
✅ How generalists connect ideas across disciplines 🤝
✅ Why broad thinking leads to innovation 🚀
✅ The academic writing & publishing process 📚
✅ How graduate students can embrace generalist skills 🎓
💬 Are you a generalist or a specialist? Let’s discuss in the comments! ⬇️
📚 🔗 Resources & Related Content:
https://kappanonline.org/kohnen-saul-literacy-instruction-life-online/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0031721718762420
https://www.middleweb.com/44425/helping-our-students-identify-as-generalists/
👉 Check out Wendy & Angela’s book!
In a world overflowing with information, how do we equip students with the skills to think critically, adapt quickly, and make informed decisions—not just in school, but in life?
In Thinking Like a Generalist, Wendy Saul and Angela Kohnen challenge the traditional focus on specialization, arguing that true success comes from connecting ideas across disciplines. They introduce generalist literacy, a powerful framework that fosters curiosity, open-minded skepticism, and persistence—essential skills for navigating today’s complex world.
With practical strategies, classroom-tested examples, and a step-by-step guide for educators, this book shows how to help students become active, thoughtful learners who can synthesize information, evaluate sources, and engage meaningfully with the world around them. Whether you're a teacher, researcher, or lifelong learner, Thinking Like a Generalist offers a compelling case for broad thinking in an age of hyper-specialization.
📖 Get your copy here: https://www.routledge.com/Thinking-Like-a-Generalist-Skills-for-Navigating-a-Complex-World/Kohnen-Saul/p/book/9781625311061?srsltid=AfmBOoqL5ySpgOp8z1SqH5LQfRAP0HWejW_PIYmAWstSOz3OcS07aZkN
⏳ Chapters:
0:00 Academia Often Celebrates Specialists
0:08 The Power of Connecting Ideas Across Disciplines
0:18 Why Broad Thinking Leads to Innovation
0:27 Introducing Wendy Saul & Angela Kohnen
0:40 The Problem with Specialization in Academia
0:50 How Graduate Students Can Benefit from Generalist Thinking
1:16 Meet Your Hosts: Nick Husbye & Guy Trainin
1:36 Wendy & Angela on Generalist Literacies
2:48 Why Being a Generalist Matters in Education
4:08 Curiosity as an Academic Strength
4:21 The Three Key Elements: Authenticity, Autonomy, Community
5:50 How Generalist Thinking Can Reshape Research & Teaching
7:16 The Role of Generalists in Today’s Information Age
9:05 The Intersection of Generalist Literacies & Digital Information
10:56 Experts vs. Generalists: Finding the Balance
13:00 How Generalists Navigate the Overload of Information
17:10 Why Academia is Facing an Identity Crisis
18:50 How to Be a Competent Outsider in Any Field
24:10 Graduate School & Generalist Thinking: What You Need to Know
27:00 Reforming Academic Writing & Publishing with a Generalist Mindset
31:00 The Book Writing Process: What Academics Should Know
35:50 How to Make Your Work Findable in a Crowded Academic World
39:00 Closing Thoughts & Final Takeaways
Expertise: Generalist and Specialist - Not That Kind of Doctor with Nick Husbye and Guy Trainin
www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor
Searchable Transcript
Toggle between list and paragraph view.
- [00:00:00.240]Academia often celebrates specialists.
- [00:00:03.900]The deeper you dig into subject matter,
- [00:00:06.360]the more you're rewarded.
- [00:00:08.310]But what happens when the real breakthroughs
- [00:00:11.340]come from connecting the dots between disciplines?
- [00:00:15.120]What if the key to innovation lies
- [00:00:18.390]not in going narrower, but broader?
- [00:00:22.680]So today, we're joined by Wendy Saul and Angela Kohnen,
- [00:00:27.630]two scholars who argue that generalist literatures
- [00:00:30.660]aren't just valuable, they're essential.
- [00:00:33.930]There were challenges the idea
- [00:00:35.460]that specialization is the only path to academic success
- [00:00:39.180]and offers a compelling case
- [00:00:40.590]for thinking bigger, broader, and more creatively.
- [00:00:44.580]And it's not just about theory, it's about practice.
- [00:00:47.760]We'll explore how graduate students
- [00:00:50.400]can embrace generalist thinking
- [00:00:52.920]in their own journeys,
- [00:00:54.090]and get an insider's look at the writing
- [00:00:56.580]and publishing processes from two experts
- [00:00:59.520]who've been there.
- [00:01:01.260]And if you ever felt,
- [00:01:03.420]if you've ever felt torn
- [00:01:04.620]between diving deep and staying broad,
- [00:01:07.470]if you're curious about what it takes to take,
- [00:01:10.560]to bring a book to life,
- [00:01:12.480]which is something I struggle with personally,
- [00:01:15.060]you are in the right place.
- [00:01:16.650]Stick around.
- [00:01:17.760]I'm Nick Husbye, Associate Professor
- [00:01:19.530]of Elementary Literacy Education here at UNL.
- [00:01:22.260]And I'm Guy Trainin, Professor of Education here at UNL.
- [00:01:25.350]And this is...
- [00:01:26.430]Not That Kind of Doctor.
- [00:01:29.172](lively music)
- [00:01:36.720]Wendy, Angela, welcome to Not That Kind of Doctor.
- [00:01:40.830]We are so glad you were able to join us
- [00:01:43.830]and talk through some of the things
- [00:01:46.830]that you've been doing around generalist literacies.
- [00:01:50.460]So let's start with a quick introduction
- [00:01:54.390]so that folks know who you are,
- [00:01:57.090]and where you're at, those kinds of things.
- [00:01:59.850]Okay, great.
- [00:02:00.683]Hi, I'm Angela Kohnen.
- [00:02:02.940]I am an Associate Professor at the University of Florida.
- [00:02:06.690]I work in English education and
- [00:02:11.100]with secondary English teacher preparation,
- [00:02:13.110]as well as with doctoral students.
- [00:02:15.570]And I've been here for almost 10 years.
- [00:02:18.420]I'm Wendy Saul.
- [00:02:21.687]I am an Endowed Chair in Education and International Studies
- [00:02:25.710]at the University of Missouri-St. Louis.
- [00:02:28.890]And Angela was one of my students who
- [00:02:33.270]became a colleague
- [00:02:35.340]and then, really, a friend.
- [00:02:36.960]Love it.
- [00:02:38.310]Well, let's start with some basics,
- [00:02:40.020]because you had a book come out on generalist literacies,
- [00:02:44.940]and I would love to start with the idea of
- [00:02:48.960]how you two think about being a generalist in education
- [00:02:52.980]and why does it matter?
- [00:02:55.860]I've been in education for a very long time.
- [00:02:59.190]And in some ways, I think it makes my advice
- [00:03:05.280]a little out of context.
- [00:03:07.740]But I do wanna give you the history of this one.
- [00:03:15.774]I was an English major.
- [00:03:16.607]I knew more about English courses than anybody going.
- [00:03:22.743]And then I ended up marrying a scientist
- [00:03:25.320]and I realized the pleasure of
- [00:03:29.550]being able to use what I knew
- [00:03:32.550]to understand what he knows and does.
- [00:03:36.480]And actually ended up building a career on
- [00:03:41.910]what I would say is not knowing in my own curiosity.
- [00:03:47.610]And
- [00:03:50.820]most people
- [00:03:52.830]don't think about what they don't know as an asset,
- [00:03:57.210]but I have come to think of that as my greatest asset.
- [00:04:04.200]I started
- [00:04:06.570]by
- [00:04:08.100]trying to understand
- [00:04:11.430]what curriculum didn't have in it that I really wanted.
- [00:04:16.950]And the three things I came up with were authenticity.
- [00:04:21.480]I wanted kids to be doing things
- [00:04:24.180]that are done in the world.
- [00:04:25.980]It's a very (indistinct) notion.
- [00:04:28.590]And then autonomy.
- [00:04:31.080]I wanted them to feel a sense of agency.
- [00:04:33.660]They weren't just there
- [00:04:35.280]to eat what the teacher provided,
- [00:04:37.650]but rather, I wanted to see them
- [00:04:42.540]as
- [00:04:43.950]active in their curiosity.
- [00:04:47.370]And then the third one was community.
- [00:04:51.090]I think it's really important that
- [00:04:54.480]education
- [00:04:57.210]attend to
- [00:04:59.520]a wider world
- [00:05:01.560]and how
- [00:05:03.150]kids can contribute to that world
- [00:05:06.150]and benefit from that world.
- [00:05:08.460]So that's where I was coming from.
- [00:05:12.060]And Angela, why don't you pick up from there, kind of.
- [00:05:16.260]Yeah, I think when I met Wendy
- [00:05:19.890]and we started thinking about,
- [00:05:22.710]and right now, we're still talking about K-12 students a lot
- [00:05:26.310]rather than PhD or academic research.
- [00:05:30.060]But
- [00:05:32.100]at that time there, there was a bit of a push,
- [00:05:34.650]and I'm not sure where we are in this now,
- [00:05:36.750]but around sort of disciplinary literacies
- [00:05:39.780]in secondary education,
- [00:05:41.310]and sort of taking, as appropriate models,
- [00:05:45.690]chemists and biologists
- [00:05:48.180]and maybe literature professors and,
- [00:05:51.357]and just this idea that we should model
- [00:05:53.580]the 6 through 12 curriculum on preparing
- [00:05:58.140]people for these highly specialized areas.
- [00:06:01.140]And we kept talking about,
- [00:06:03.570]yes, that might be authentic in some very narrow way,
- [00:06:06.930]but the kinds of literacies
- [00:06:09.600]that both Wendy and I were finding
- [00:06:12.270]more and more essential
- [00:06:13.590]as information is exploding,
- [00:06:15.450]as we're encountering all kinds of different things,
- [00:06:18.120]we're not these highly specialized tools
- [00:06:22.500]which most kids aren't gonna be able
- [00:06:25.050]to get a handle on,
- [00:06:28.050]it was more the ability to sort of stay up
- [00:06:31.732]at the 10,000 foot level
- [00:06:33.060]and sort of understand enough
- [00:06:35.070]about how all these fields work,
- [00:06:38.280]but be able to sort of look across them.
- [00:06:41.580]And I too always find myself, to this day,
- [00:06:45.480]in out of my depth.
- [00:06:46.980]In my career, I'm like, ooh,
- [00:06:48.300]tell me more about AI.
- [00:06:49.410]I wanna learn about that.
- [00:06:50.400]Well, let me tell you how these ideas around AI
- [00:06:53.670]intersect with our understandings from the humanities.
- [00:06:57.060]Like I too was an English major,
- [00:06:58.890]and what we think about what it means to be human
- [00:07:01.530]or what it means to be a writer
- [00:07:04.110]or what it means to have an idea.
- [00:07:05.640]And so
- [00:07:07.080]being sort of up above the specialization
- [00:07:12.960]was something intriguing to me.
- [00:07:15.000]And I was watching the way,
- [00:07:16.620]when I taught high school English,
- [00:07:18.750]we taught students to find and evaluate information,
- [00:07:23.580]and it acted as if I would talk to 11th grade students
- [00:07:27.390]and they would be like, peer-reviewed research.
- [00:07:29.580]And you're like, peer-reviewed research?
- [00:07:31.380]You're really gonna go in
- [00:07:32.610]and read a peer-reviewed article?
- [00:07:35.940]You gotta be kidding me.
- [00:07:38.100]And I have trouble with peer-reviewed research
- [00:07:41.070]outside of my field.
- [00:07:43.200]It depends on how it's written,
- [00:07:44.460]maybe I can handle it.
- [00:07:45.630]But like,
- [00:07:48.150]why do you think that's the gold standard?
- [00:07:50.520]And kind of to go back to date ourselves a little bit,
- [00:07:53.220]but donttrust.com,
- [00:07:55.514]don't trust, you know, this whole set of rules.
- [00:07:58.800]Don't use Wikipedia, remember that one?
- [00:08:01.200]The students would be parroting.
- [00:08:02.820]And so we started thinking, yes,
- [00:08:05.370]the whole field has moved into,
- [00:08:07.110]let's take the (indistinct) as the model,
- [00:08:09.780]but who are these other kind of people
- [00:08:11.820]who are really good at like reading across fields?
- [00:08:15.090]And that's when Wendy and I started talking about
- [00:08:18.210]journalists and librarians.
- [00:08:20.610]And
- [00:08:22.230]we talked a little bit about nonfiction,
- [00:08:24.330]children's book authors.
- [00:08:26.190]And I became very intrigued
- [00:08:28.110]by this idea of the translator,
- [00:08:30.120]the person who sits in a third space
- [00:08:32.370]and can look at experts,
- [00:08:34.050]but also make them make sense for people
- [00:08:36.270]outside of the disciplines.
- [00:08:38.580]And could we help kids
- [00:08:41.520]sort of sit in that space?
- [00:08:43.860]And that requires a lot of skills,
- [00:08:45.930]but they're slightly different
- [00:08:47.190]from the expert skills.
- [00:08:49.440]And then as you're asking us these questions,
- [00:08:51.780]I'm like, yeah,
- [00:08:52.613]and then that's kind of what we do too,
- [00:08:53.880]like as academics, you know,
- [00:08:56.010]because I don't think you can slot
- [00:08:58.590]either of us neatly in,
- [00:09:00.150]you know, one disciplinary box.
- [00:09:03.600]So that's a long answer.
- [00:09:05.820]No, I think you're spot on.
- [00:09:08.100]The other thing I wanted to do was
- [00:09:10.980]talk just for a second about
- [00:09:12.840]what the term generalist literacy comes from.
- [00:09:16.470]Generalist is a term we borrowed from Lewis Mumford
- [00:09:20.820]who really used a metaphor of the traitor
- [00:09:24.630]who would go from one community to another,
- [00:09:29.610]sharing
- [00:09:31.770]their wares, their spices,
- [00:09:33.840]their artistic talents,
- [00:09:36.240]and then bring them back to another place.
- [00:09:38.610]So it's really the idea of
- [00:09:42.810]sort of the folks
- [00:09:46.140]who can go from one community to another.
- [00:09:50.610]Well, and having read earlier versions of this book,
- [00:09:55.230]I remember sitting at the table,
- [00:09:56.340]you're at, Wendy, reading,
- [00:09:57.720]you know, the draft as it was several years ago.
- [00:10:01.650]And in the distance between then,
- [00:10:03.990]we've seen this increasing
- [00:10:06.960]separation in tension between,
- [00:10:10.500]with the rise of the internet,
- [00:10:11.670]now everyone's an expert, right?
- [00:10:14.940]So it's that question of
- [00:10:19.080]what is, there's also this question of what is,
- [00:10:21.540]who is an expert?
- [00:10:22.410]What is the role of the expert?
- [00:10:24.720]And then positioning that in relationship
- [00:10:28.500]with a generalist
- [00:10:29.700]where a generalist isn't necessarily a bad thing.
- [00:10:32.880]For too long it's been,
- [00:10:34.950]oh, you don't want to be a generalist,
- [00:10:36.420]you want to be hyperspecialized.
- [00:10:40.170]And it's just really, it feels like a
- [00:10:44.130]really smart way forward
- [00:10:47.520]and
- [00:10:48.930]kind of lays out
- [00:10:52.650]the relationships between these highly contested categories.
- [00:10:56.520]Like people who say, oh, I'm an expert,
- [00:10:58.680]but, oh, I'm a generalist.
- [00:10:59.940]And it's,
- [00:11:01.170]it feels like a space to make peace
- [00:11:04.500]with those supposed binaries.
- [00:11:07.920]Does that make sense?
- [00:11:08.753]Is anything I'm saying making sense?
- [00:11:10.980]Yeah, I think one thing that,
- [00:11:14.190]to be clear, we,
- [00:11:16.290]when we think about generalist literacies,
- [00:11:18.750]they can't exist without experts.
- [00:11:21.900]And also, everybody can have both.
- [00:11:26.190]And so, and at another point,
- [00:11:28.800]we threw around the term competent outsider.
- [00:11:32.370]And this came from
- [00:11:36.089]Feinstein, right?
- [00:11:38.100]Work in science around
- [00:11:40.770]rather than,
- [00:11:41.820]and he was kind of arguing against the movement
- [00:11:44.070]toward disciplinary literacy and science and saying,
- [00:11:47.730]kids really aren't gonna,
- [00:11:49.590]not that we shouldn't prepare kids for stem careers,
- [00:11:52.050]but many kids are not going to be scientists,
- [00:11:55.680]but everybody's gonna have to interact
- [00:11:57.660]with science information at some point in time.
- [00:11:59.730]And so helping people recognize,
- [00:12:03.720]and he called them competent outsiders to science.
- [00:12:06.690]And
- [00:12:08.220]I would argue,
- [00:12:09.090]and I think the scientists that we know would agree,
- [00:12:12.420]if I'm an expert in geology,
- [00:12:14.910]I'm still a competent outsider to,
- [00:12:17.580]you know, astrophysics.
- [00:12:19.170]You know, they know enough.
- [00:12:20.670]The more you know,
- [00:12:21.510]the more you know about what you don't know.
- [00:12:23.070]And so you can be humble in that face.
- [00:12:28.020]So rather than,
- [00:12:31.290]I think there is a movement right now to sort of,
- [00:12:35.550]you know, the death of expertise
- [00:12:37.080]and people kind of mocking experts
- [00:12:39.270]as being eggheads and too narrow,
- [00:12:41.730]and we could all figure this out.
- [00:12:43.530]That's not at all what we're saying.
- [00:12:45.390]It's understanding deeply how experts work,
- [00:12:50.040]how the landscape of knowledge works,
- [00:12:52.920]how information flows from discovery into the public.
- [00:12:56.430]All of these ideas are part of
- [00:12:58.470]what we would call generalist literacies
- [00:13:00.390]or what you need to be a competent outsider to science.
- [00:13:04.020]Because then you can recognize
- [00:13:06.150]when a piece of information is good,
- [00:13:08.400]and when it's just somebody pretending that it's good.
- [00:13:14.442]So there is sort of, not a binary,
- [00:13:17.610]but I always like continuums,
- [00:13:20.460]but also a self-awareness.
- [00:13:23.100]And we created sort of a set of quadrants
- [00:13:27.300]that I do have that picture
- [00:13:29.220]if you wanna see it.
- [00:13:31.080]But let's,
- [00:13:33.390]that was designed,
- [00:13:34.590]I know, this is a visual medium, I've heard,
- [00:13:38.687]so let me know if you wanna see it.
- [00:13:40.680]But that was designed to be used by teachers
- [00:13:44.820]to help students recognize,
- [00:13:47.370]hey, where am I in terms of,
- [00:13:49.680]I need some information,
- [00:13:51.210]or I've encountered some information.
- [00:13:53.580]How much background do I already have about this?
- [00:13:57.180]If you have a high degree of background about information,
- [00:13:59.910]you can look at almost anything.
- [00:14:02.130]Like, you really don't have to do
- [00:14:03.810]a ton of reliability checks.
- [00:14:05.640]Like think about all of us in here,
- [00:14:07.140]we know literacy really well.
- [00:14:08.730]We know K-12 schools really well.
- [00:14:11.460]I can read a pretty rotten tweet about it
- [00:14:14.940]and be able to make sense
- [00:14:16.230]and separate the good from the bad
- [00:14:17.490]without doing a lot of digging.
- [00:14:19.560]If I have no background though,
- [00:14:21.960]I really better be humble
- [00:14:23.370]in the face of information,
- [00:14:24.540]and better be able to recognize
- [00:14:26.700]I have little background
- [00:14:27.900]so I'm gonna have to dig deep.
- [00:14:29.490]So rather than,
- [00:14:32.190]and this may be outdated now,
- [00:14:33.900]but rather than teaching,
- [00:14:35.580]we were really thinking hard about
- [00:14:36.960]how we teach young people to interact with information.
- [00:14:40.110]And it really felt to us
- [00:14:42.150]like there was this one size fits all approach.
- [00:14:44.400]Here's what you do,
- [00:14:45.540]you always use the crap test,
- [00:14:47.460]currency, relevancy, you know,
- [00:14:49.350]you always go through this checklist.
- [00:14:51.390]No, you don't. Nobody does.
- [00:14:53.940]But can you be self-aware to say,
- [00:14:56.370]oh, this is something I don't know very well.
- [00:14:59.490]And then our other axes was,
- [00:15:00.870]and this is a big deal,
- [00:15:02.010]or this is not a big deal.
- [00:15:03.090]Like, I don't care,
- [00:15:04.170]I don't care if I get misinformation about,
- [00:15:06.480]you know, Minecraft, like, whatever.
- [00:15:09.390]But I do care if I get misinformation
- [00:15:12.450]about a local water initiative,
- [00:15:15.300]which is a big deal in Florida,
- [00:15:16.770]and I've really gotta understand the implications
- [00:15:20.400]of allowing, you know, the aquifer to be capped, whatever.
- [00:15:25.835]And the one that we always could rely on
- [00:15:28.650]to make this point is health information.
- [00:15:31.050]Yeah.
- [00:15:31.883]Because everybody cared about it,
- [00:15:34.680]and everybody had to make decisions,
- [00:15:38.520]and you were never going to get it completely right.
- [00:15:42.660]And so we wanted to show
- [00:15:45.300]that there was more right and less right
- [00:15:49.950]on that continuum.
- [00:15:51.510]And from the beginning,
- [00:15:53.130]we really were trying
- [00:15:55.470]to think about this as an identity.
- [00:15:57.780]And we've been very
- [00:16:00.450]deliberate in calling it that
- [00:16:02.460]in a lot of our work because what I've seen,
- [00:16:06.690]and I think the years since this has been published
- [00:16:09.120]and since we started talking about this,
- [00:16:10.950]have borne this out,
- [00:16:12.540]is that if you have,
- [00:16:14.370]I used to use the Cardinals,
- [00:16:17.305]I'm a big Cardinal, St. Louis baseball fan,
- [00:16:18.780]and we know if you have a really strong
- [00:16:22.590]rooting interest in something,
- [00:16:24.330]and we all have rooting interests in everything,
- [00:16:26.160]including healthcare, you know,
- [00:16:28.200]I am going to, you know, have my biases.
- [00:16:31.530]I'm gonna really double check
- [00:16:33.300]when there's negative information about the Cardinals,
- [00:16:35.820]and I'm gonna look real hard to refute it.
- [00:16:37.920]And I'm really gonna accept it
- [00:16:39.360]right away if it's about the Cubs.
- [00:16:40.710]If there's something negative
- [00:16:41.670]that comes out about the Cubs,
- [00:16:42.780]yep, I buy it, I retweet it,
- [00:16:45.300]I don't take another second to think.
- [00:16:48.300]And so if we help kids
- [00:16:52.230]sort of feel like,
- [00:16:53.250]no, no, no, no, I know that I have that tendency,
- [00:16:56.100]but I'm not gonna be that kind of person.
- [00:16:57.630]I'm not gonna be the kind of person
- [00:16:59.160]who gets a negative bit of information
- [00:17:01.110]about something I don't like
- [00:17:02.250]and immediately believes it.
- [00:17:03.870]I'm gonna have that identity that says,
- [00:17:05.640]whoop, whoop, whoop,
- [00:17:07.020]let me double check if it's important.
- [00:17:10.200]And I think we see that.
- [00:17:11.460]I just heard,
- [00:17:13.590]I don't know if anybody listened
- [00:17:14.640]to Mike Caulfield and Charlie Warzel,
- [00:17:17.550]and they have an article in the Atlantic
- [00:17:20.400]calling the internet a justification machine.
- [00:17:24.120]And they say the internet is no longer a source
- [00:17:26.220]of information for most people,
- [00:17:27.600]it's just a source of justification
- [00:17:29.250]for what they wanted to believe anyway.
- [00:17:31.140]And I think Wendy and I have been kind of talking about that
- [00:17:35.010]for many years.
- [00:17:36.270]Like, it's always been that way
- [00:17:39.360]because you can find points of support.
- [00:17:43.560]And they're talking about adults,
- [00:17:44.850]what about kids?
- [00:17:46.020]Like, can we get kids to recognize that
- [00:17:49.746]and just sort of grow up with the identity
- [00:17:51.360]that's like, I reject that
- [00:17:52.860]and I embrace this other,
- [00:17:55.770]this other way of being.
- [00:17:58.050]That intersection between
- [00:18:00.840]the computer and computer information
- [00:18:04.320]and generalist literacy was,
- [00:18:08.490]you know, we had to name this book,
- [00:18:10.620]so we called it generalist literacy
- [00:18:13.080]because it was about the identity piece.
- [00:18:15.540]But frankly, if we called it something
- [00:18:17.610]about computer knowledge,
- [00:18:19.410]we would've sold gazillion more copies.
- [00:18:22.110]Well, you can always, in the next edition,
- [00:18:24.840]call it something else.
- [00:18:28.830]And I wanna take this
- [00:18:30.690]because I think that you are talking about K-12 students
- [00:18:33.600]and how they're growing,
- [00:18:34.470]but I think that graduate education
- [00:18:36.750]is another one of those moments
- [00:18:38.910]where you are reforming an identity.
- [00:18:42.540]And I think that
- [00:18:44.640]that's where we can reintroduce
- [00:18:47.460]that idea of generalist skills,
- [00:18:49.080]because again, you're working on that tension
- [00:18:52.050]between very specific knowledge
- [00:18:54.240]and very general knowledge.
- [00:18:55.950]So help me understand how you think it fits there.
- [00:18:58.830]So my degree from Wisconsin
- [00:19:02.250]is actually as a curriculum generalist.
- [00:19:05.430]So
- [00:19:06.840]I've had this passion
- [00:19:09.000]for generalist thinking for a long time.
- [00:19:13.050]I worked with (indistinct) and (indistinct),
- [00:19:16.830]and Mike Apple,
- [00:19:18.450]and all of us were interested in
- [00:19:24.930]sort of definitional questions
- [00:19:27.360]as well as political stances.
- [00:19:32.550]And so every time you got an idea, in a way,
- [00:19:36.570]you were dancing around it
- [00:19:38.310]to look at it from different perspectives.
- [00:19:41.340]And
- [00:19:43.200]I think it's not only a good habit,
- [00:19:46.140]but when you think about publishing,
- [00:19:48.510]it makes your work kind of unique.
- [00:19:51.360]And I think too, one of these skills of a generalist,
- [00:19:55.620]as we've said, is recognizing the need for expertise
- [00:19:59.250]and connecting with expertise.
- [00:20:00.870]So in my career,
- [00:20:03.750]I have had, you know,
- [00:20:06.039]a lot of joy in sort of partnering,
- [00:20:09.060]say, with the science ed person
- [00:20:10.830]and hearing what they know about science
- [00:20:13.350]and then sort of bringing the perspective
- [00:20:15.420]that I have heard from all these other places,
- [00:20:18.000]or the educational technologist
- [00:20:20.070]and saying, oh, okay,
- [00:20:21.240]have you thought about this and this and this?
- [00:20:25.859]So being that person in academia can,
- [00:20:29.550]it can have a lot of rewards
- [00:20:31.440]and it allows you to kind of
- [00:20:34.170]follow your own curiosities,
- [00:20:35.910]which I think is the great joy of the work.
- [00:20:39.150]But also in your writing, you know,
- [00:20:41.220]there are things that I've written,
- [00:20:43.440]and I'm like, oh man,
- [00:20:44.460]science ed knows all about this,
- [00:20:46.770]but haven't talked about this over here in English ed.
- [00:20:49.680]And let me, you know, I'm gonna cite the science ed,
- [00:20:52.290]I'm not gonna pretend like I made it up,
- [00:20:54.210]but I'm gonna bring this idea.
- [00:20:56.490]And even just to a different journal, you know,
- [00:21:00.390]it opens up the ideas to new audiences.
- [00:21:04.800]And so I think that
- [00:21:07.140]as we enter in with technology,
- [00:21:09.390]I see lots of people doing that,
- [00:21:12.450]bringing ideas back and forth across the disciplines.
- [00:21:14.820]And I think there's a lot of room for,
- [00:21:17.250]for people who are willing to move around
- [00:21:21.810]to say new things and bring ideas across silos, really.
- [00:21:26.820]My original work that I did,
- [00:21:30.630]the first book I did was
- [00:21:33.330]about
- [00:21:34.860]how literacy can be useful
- [00:21:38.100]to the science community.
- [00:21:39.540]It was a point in science where they were saying,
- [00:21:42.120]no, we only want hands-on, that literacy was a threat.
- [00:21:47.190]And then I did a book called "Science Workshop",
- [00:21:49.710]which was about
- [00:21:51.330]bringing a writer's workshop model
- [00:21:54.830]to the science community.
- [00:21:56.460]And then we did another one
- [00:21:59.910]about a kids' inquiry conference
- [00:22:02.130]where I basically just took the idea
- [00:22:05.580]of an academic conference and said,
- [00:22:07.890]what would it look like for fourth graders?
- [00:22:10.470]And that was a lot of fun.
- [00:22:12.990]And anyway.
- [00:22:14.820]and what that reminds me of is,
- [00:22:16.950]and particularly for graduate students
- [00:22:18.570]thinking about if you're in education,
- [00:22:22.230]you tend to be in a discipline,
- [00:22:23.670]like we are all literacy folks,
- [00:22:25.590]but we have some overlap with other spaces.
- [00:22:29.010]And
- [00:22:30.120]when
- [00:22:31.590]we're sharing the work that we do,
- [00:22:35.970]there's always, you know, the implication section,
- [00:22:38.040]oh, teachers should be doing this.
- [00:22:40.230]But what a generalist perspective allows you to do
- [00:22:43.440]is understand that while you are asking teachers
- [00:22:46.950]to do this thing,
- [00:22:48.600]all these other disciplines are also asking teachers
- [00:22:51.450]to do these things.
- [00:22:53.100]And if you can, as a generalist,
- [00:22:57.300]couch your work in that.
- [00:22:58.530]And I think that's one of the things that, Wendy,
- [00:23:00.750]your science workshop book does so beautifully is,
- [00:23:06.690]you know, really talks about
- [00:23:09.150]what is most durable within all of these disciplines,
- [00:23:11.730]and then how do we work with them across,
- [00:23:15.300]because educational researchers
- [00:23:17.550]tend to fall on the side of,
- [00:23:20.160]you need to do all these things, teachers,
- [00:23:22.920]in silos themselves without drawing connections.
- [00:23:26.640]And so it feels like for graduate students,
- [00:23:29.820]thinking about education research,
- [00:23:33.360]that's something that they can pull from
- [00:23:35.850]around your generalist literacy stance.
- [00:23:39.180]Yeah, it's hard now
- [00:23:41.120]because the standards
- [00:23:44.160]are so key
- [00:23:46.920]to disciplines,
- [00:23:49.817]and teachers feel obliged
- [00:23:52.020]to meet all of these standards
- [00:23:54.300]and anything else is seen as extra
- [00:23:56.970]or they're interested in
- [00:23:59.220]where can I find the overlap,
- [00:24:01.140]which isn't a generalist perspective.
- [00:24:05.640]That's something interesting,
- [00:24:07.350]but it's not necessarily
- [00:24:11.370]building on the curiosities
- [00:24:13.440]that Angela and I write about.
- [00:24:17.460]I think too, there is a challenge.
- [00:24:22.904]In framing the goal, you know,
- [00:24:24.480]I think sometimes, for graduate students,
- [00:24:27.630]for K-12 teachers, it's like we can lose sight of like,
- [00:24:32.100]what are we doing?
- [00:24:33.390]Like, what are we trying to come to understand?
- [00:24:37.050]What is the end goal
- [00:24:40.320]for young people,
- [00:24:41.970]you know, as we see education narrowing
- [00:24:44.490]and narrowing and narrowing, you know, to
- [00:24:48.060]okay, passing these tests.
- [00:24:49.440]And somehow, passing the test is a proxy for, what?
- [00:24:52.320]Getting into college
- [00:24:53.400]or being career ready or whatever.
- [00:24:55.980]But it's not about being
- [00:24:59.310]a curious
- [00:25:01.620]thinker who can operate
- [00:25:03.810]in a modern society in ways
- [00:25:06.150]that allow them to live fulfilling lives,
- [00:25:08.820]engaged with, you know, et cetera.
- [00:25:11.730]And when we go to the graduate student level,
- [00:25:15.570]I think like sort of understanding kind of what am I about?
- [00:25:21.450]What am I trying to understand?
- [00:25:23.160]What am I trying
- [00:25:26.788]to contribute to the world?
- [00:25:28.920]I think we can see people getting stuck down
- [00:25:32.130]very narrow pathways and sort of that incremental,
- [00:25:38.340]you know, nature of academic work
- [00:25:41.760]as opposed to kind of taking a step back and going,
- [00:25:44.280]okay, here's the big picture
- [00:25:45.540]and here's something
- [00:25:47.700]sort of,
- [00:25:49.380]I'm gonna take a leap here rather than,
- [00:25:51.960]you know, go to that implication section
- [00:25:54.750]and pick up as, you know, as Kohnen argued,
- [00:25:57.570]and I'm gonna pick up that thread
- [00:25:59.100]and go like two feet forward.
- [00:26:00.750]It's like, I think a generalist can see
- [00:26:02.730]all those implications and kind of move across 'em.
- [00:26:06.810]So I don't know,
- [00:26:07.890]I have been thinking a lot lately about what it means to,
- [00:26:12.240]you know, what it means to be literate,
- [00:26:13.620]what it means to educate,
- [00:26:15.000]what it means to be curious as we enter,
- [00:26:17.970]I feel like, a very interesting time.
- [00:26:21.900]Well, in a very interesting,
- [00:26:24.630]so going back to Wendy's earlier point about
- [00:26:26.580]like identities, right?
- [00:26:29.040]What's the role of gender generalist literacies
- [00:26:32.550]in an age of personal branding, right?
- [00:26:35.940]Like that is a massively huge discourse.
- [00:26:39.900]And is it,
- [00:26:42.270]it forces,
- [00:26:43.560]it almost forces this specialization,
- [00:26:46.710]which is just something that came to my head.
- [00:26:48.420]We don't need to explore it,
- [00:26:49.620]but it was an interesting, like,
- [00:26:52.020]thought.
- [00:26:53.460]How do we brand ourselves?
- [00:26:54.840]The essential question that a curriculum generalist asks
- [00:26:58.380]is what's important to know?
- [00:27:00.027]The key thing that we have found,
- [00:27:02.100]and I'm going back to kids again,
- [00:27:04.260]but when you're encountering information,
- [00:27:06.990]how important is this?
- [00:27:07.950]How big a deal is this?
- [00:27:09.420]And I think that's a question
- [00:27:11.730]that if all we did in the information literacy space
- [00:27:15.270]is teach people to say, how important is this?
- [00:27:17.610]How big a deal is this?
- [00:27:19.410]It would wipe out half of the media consumption people do.
- [00:27:24.990]And I think that does get lost sometimes.
- [00:27:28.950]And when I guide graduate students in writing,
- [00:27:32.070]that's often the questions I go back to.
- [00:27:34.050]Okay, you made this statement,
- [00:27:35.550]and now you're going to look for literature
- [00:27:37.680]to support this statement.
- [00:27:38.880]How important is it for this paper?
- [00:27:41.610]Does it need to be here even,
- [00:27:43.920]or is this just kind of filler
- [00:27:46.710]because you're like, I need to say something,
- [00:27:48.480]so this is what I chose to say.
- [00:27:49.950]So it is very much something
- [00:27:52.440]that I constantly think about in the context
- [00:27:54.930]of teaching our graduate students to write.
- [00:27:58.170]I do find
- [00:27:59.820]the incentives right now are troubling,
- [00:28:03.060]I think, in academia
- [00:28:04.770]because I think
- [00:28:08.280]in the time that I've,
- [00:28:09.810]you know, I'm old but I started late.
- [00:28:12.330]So I haven't been in the college
- [00:28:16.140]teaching world for forever.
- [00:28:20.160]And in that time period,
- [00:28:22.170]getting an assistant professor job,
- [00:28:25.260]when I look at my students,
- [00:28:26.820]if they don't have three to five publications
- [00:28:29.880]and-peer reviewed articles
- [00:28:31.770]and a dozen presentations,
- [00:28:35.460]they're not competitive.
- [00:28:37.200]And it's,
- [00:28:39.660]yes, they can be co-authored,
- [00:28:41.010]and yes, I've gotta make sure
- [00:28:42.150]that I involve them in my work
- [00:28:44.010]and help them to achieve these aims.
- [00:28:47.430]But we
- [00:28:50.280]at the University of Florida
- [00:28:51.420]have post-tenure review,
- [00:28:52.530]and there's a number of publications
- [00:28:54.720]you're expected to do every year,
- [00:28:56.670]which means we're contributing to sort of,
- [00:28:58.980]we talk about information overload
- [00:29:00.810]and too much information,
- [00:29:02.220]we're contributing because we're incentivized
- [00:29:05.430]to publish even stuff that's not,
- [00:29:08.040]maybe it's not great,
- [00:29:09.090]maybe it's not, maybe it's okay,
- [00:29:11.550]I stand by everything I've published,
- [00:29:13.440]but I think we are,
- [00:29:15.780]often, graduate students are looking for lines on their vita
- [00:29:18.990]and we understand why they're looking
- [00:29:20.490]for lines on their vita,
- [00:29:22.350]but it can get in the way of how important is this?
- [00:29:25.530]How big a deal is this?
- [00:29:26.880]And then there's a clutter that becomes hard,
- [00:29:29.700]even for good generalists
- [00:29:31.560]to sort of wade through if we've got this much clutter.
- [00:29:35.820]So I do find that concerning,
- [00:29:38.760]and I do find the importance
- [00:29:42.420]of information matters.
- [00:29:45.030]'Cause we're all buried and stuff,
- [00:29:46.800]everybody feels like they haven't read enough.
- [00:29:48.960]But if we were to read
- [00:29:51.240]and never write,
- [00:29:52.980]like we would never write, we would have no time.
- [00:29:55.560]And so, I don't know, I find it's hard
- [00:29:58.290]to kind of separate out now,
- [00:29:59.970]and the current iteration of the internet makes it harder.
- [00:30:04.440]You know, you can't find anything anymore.
- [00:30:07.020]It's very cluttered.
- [00:30:09.810]And so I think we have to help our students
- [00:30:12.900]recognize their own personal incentives,
- [00:30:14.820]but then also like,
- [00:30:16.140]what matters and what's important,
- [00:30:18.480]and try to sort of reframe that a little bit.
- [00:30:21.750]I
- [00:30:23.400]would suggest that we
- [00:30:25.530]spend more time helping students think about grants.
- [00:30:29.790]Because when you look at an RFP,
- [00:30:34.320]it's really a series of questions,
- [00:30:37.440]and it would get students
- [00:30:40.320]to think differently than
- [00:30:42.510]how to publish an article with a review with a lit
- [00:30:46.230]and, you know, findings and conclusions.
- [00:30:51.300]I wanna talk a little bit about
- [00:30:54.330]the writing process of this book.
- [00:30:57.450]Because Wendy's already mentioned the notion of like,
- [00:31:00.540]if you had named this book something different,
- [00:31:03.990]something computer oriented,
- [00:31:06.660]it would've sold differently,
- [00:31:08.220]which I don't know that that is
- [00:31:12.300]something that graduate students
- [00:31:15.030]or just academics, young academics, think about.
- [00:31:18.030]Like, we exist within these capitalistic systems,
- [00:31:22.800]and there's all of these decisions
- [00:31:24.420]that go into that book writing process.
- [00:31:26.817]And so I would love to talk about
- [00:31:29.160]what was that writing
- [00:31:30.300]and publication journey like?
- [00:31:31.860]Like, what are things that,
- [00:31:35.040]Wendy, you've written several books,
- [00:31:36.840]Angela, you're publishing right, powerhouse,
- [00:31:39.450]like what are the things
- [00:31:41.777]that you would change
- [00:31:44.400]about the ways that you went about this
- [00:31:45.930]and what do you think are like the lessons
- [00:31:48.000]from your experiences with this book?
- [00:31:51.360]I think we,
- [00:31:54.180]so the book was written over a longer period of time.
- [00:31:58.740]So when we first
- [00:32:01.650]pitched the idea,
- [00:32:03.210]we had a particular editor we were working with,
- [00:32:06.300]and we were producing
- [00:32:09.810]work for this editor and getting,
- [00:32:12.000]and then there was sort of a transition.
- [00:32:14.790]So some of that, I think, is a natural thing that happens,
- [00:32:18.660]especially with consolidation and whatnot.
- [00:32:23.250]We also have,
- [00:32:25.950]the two books that I've been involved with
- [00:32:28.170]have both been with Wendy,
- [00:32:29.940]and they've both been very teacher forward books.
- [00:32:32.940]So books that we were
- [00:32:35.220]really thinking about
- [00:32:37.410]in terms of not as academic articles,
- [00:32:40.500]but conversational books to teachers
- [00:32:43.560]or pre-service teachers
- [00:32:47.010]in teacher prep programs.
- [00:32:49.320]So I think that's a different way of writing
- [00:32:52.620]than maybe a lot of students have been trained to do
- [00:32:57.810]and are thinking about.
- [00:32:59.790]We also took pieces of the book,
- [00:33:02.310]and I value this, both projects,
- [00:33:05.730]the side journey project
- [00:33:06.840]and this generalist literacy project,
- [00:33:09.600]and had them in front of teachers constantly,
- [00:33:13.200]or pre-service teachers.
- [00:33:14.610]So a lot of this book was actually written
- [00:33:18.030]when I was teaching a class
- [00:33:19.530]called teaching nonfiction writing
- [00:33:21.420]for pre-service teachers
- [00:33:24.120]getting a K-8 certification.
- [00:33:26.400]And I was preparing materials for Canvas
- [00:33:30.660]and preparing videos and preparing assignments,
- [00:33:33.240]and I was having them do different things
- [00:33:35.280]and they were getting really into it.
- [00:33:37.590]And we had such a good experience with that
- [00:33:40.470]that we pulled lots of pieces from that actual work.
- [00:33:45.330]So we felt like all of it
- [00:33:47.250]had kind of been tested, you know,
- [00:33:49.620]then I brought pieces to teachers that I work with
- [00:33:52.830]here in Florida, K-12 teachers, K-8 teachers,
- [00:33:57.090]and they were playing with some of the ideas
- [00:33:59.790]and we were watching them teach
- [00:34:01.170]and sort of bringing them,
- [00:34:03.780]bringing that to the writing process.
- [00:34:06.510]So in that way,
- [00:34:08.820]I feel very good about the book in that way that like,
- [00:34:11.970]II think the content of it,
- [00:34:14.730]I love the way we produced it,
- [00:34:17.010]I like how authentic it all was
- [00:34:20.490]and how,
- [00:34:22.890]how it did evolve based on actual,
- [00:34:26.040]you know, feedback.
- [00:34:26.873]It wasn't just like the editor and us like,
- [00:34:29.610]you know, we were testing things in the world.
- [00:34:32.490]I think, to earlier comments around
- [00:34:35.760]like branding and promotion, and
- [00:34:40.140]I do think we did have some,
- [00:34:42.990]you know, the title.
- [00:34:44.070]I think when people get ahold of the book,
- [00:34:47.280]they really like it.
- [00:34:49.680]And so I think the being found,
- [00:34:53.280]and it's back to the, you know,
- [00:34:55.320]the world is haystacks
- [00:34:56.670]and all your pieces are needles now.
- [00:34:58.500]And so how are you
- [00:35:01.560]making sure that your work is findable?
- [00:35:05.580]I think there is a whole,
- [00:35:07.590]and this is for academic articles too,
- [00:35:10.410]when I began, you know,
- [00:35:11.940]you'd have the clever title, right?
- [00:35:13.890]Often the clever title, colon,
- [00:35:15.870]and then some other title.
- [00:35:17.520]And we know that the stuff
- [00:35:20.250]that gets cited the most is not clever,
- [00:35:23.220]it is simply all the keywords you can possibly get
- [00:35:26.820]into the title and into the abstract, right?
- [00:35:29.370]So there is a,
- [00:35:32.730]a level of strategic-ness
- [00:35:36.480]that I think maybe I would,
- [00:35:39.840]I am not good at that,
- [00:35:42.480]that is probably should be a generalist skill
- [00:35:46.530]that maybe we need to have these days
- [00:35:48.600]is how do we,
- [00:35:50.790]and I don't mean to be like, the book is perfect
- [00:35:52.680]and we just have, you know, the wrong title,
- [00:35:56.220]but I think there is something
- [00:35:58.470]to think about more like how do you make sure people
- [00:36:02.070]who should see what you're doing
- [00:36:03.810]can actually get ahold of it?
- [00:36:05.760]I know a lot of authors,
- [00:36:07.530]and every one of them is asked
- [00:36:10.170]for information about their social media presence and
- [00:36:15.780]what things are they following
- [00:36:18.150]and what is their Instagram account look like and how many,
- [00:36:23.490]it's a different world than what I know.
- [00:36:28.737]And I guess it's working
- [00:36:31.230]for a lot of people,
- [00:36:32.490]it's not working for me.
- [00:36:34.410]I will say that I listen to a lot of podcasts,
- [00:36:38.640]and I find them a super interesting form.
- [00:36:44.550]But
- [00:36:46.740]I heard two in the,
- [00:36:49.290]not pretty recently
- [00:36:53.070]that feel to me like
- [00:36:58.200]the educational version of
- [00:37:06.810]it's worth some misinformation.
- [00:37:08.670]It's like conspiracy theories.
- [00:37:11.610]And they'll just, a podcast you'll say,
- [00:37:15.870]I've been talking to a lot of teachers
- [00:37:17.940]and they feel they have been totally screwed
- [00:37:20.520]by whole language, and then go on
- [00:37:24.600]some sort of rage about that.
- [00:37:30.436]I think that if you look at the history of reading,
- [00:37:35.580]and I mean, my mother was the first
- [00:37:38.250]learning disabilities teacher
- [00:37:39.720]in the state of Connecticut,
- [00:37:40.740]so I grew up with all the reading stuff from the get go
- [00:37:45.180]and have lived a career through it.
- [00:37:47.610]And
- [00:37:49.620]I would say that there are many truths,
- [00:37:53.820]and a generalist should be looking at
- [00:37:57.840]the many truths,
- [00:37:59.610]and also learning to ignore
- [00:38:03.240]what is clearly fabricated.
- [00:38:07.170]I wanna thank you both for your time on this.
- [00:38:11.700]This was a fascinating conversation,
- [00:38:14.970]and I hope people, you know, see this
- [00:38:18.540]and go find your book,
- [00:38:20.550]link in the description.
- [00:38:25.710]See? I'm getting back on my game.
- [00:38:27.390]It's after break.
- [00:38:29.040]Starting to, you know, spin those plates again.
- [00:38:31.890]But today, we've really unpacked
- [00:38:35.850]the value of generalist literacies
- [00:38:38.580]and explored how they can reshape graduate education.
- [00:38:43.140]And we've taken a behind the scenes look
- [00:38:45.270]at what it takes to publish a book
- [00:38:48.150]for a general education audience.
- [00:38:50.790]Exactly.
- [00:38:51.623]Whether you are a grad student, an educator,
- [00:38:54.270]or someone who's curious about broad thinking
- [00:38:57.570]and how broad thinking can transform academic life,
- [00:39:00.420]remember that a being a generalist
- [00:39:02.610]isn't a limitation, it can be a strength.
- [00:39:05.880]And so thank you to both Angela and Wendy
- [00:39:09.720]for sharing your insights
- [00:39:11.250]and experiences with us.
- [00:39:14.160]It's always lovely when people are willing
- [00:39:15.660]to donate their time to conversations.
- [00:39:20.520]And again, don't forget to check out their book.
- [00:39:22.950]Don't forget to check out their work.
- [00:39:24.720]Not only will we link the book,
- [00:39:26.100]we'll link some of the other articles
- [00:39:29.640]that have been published around this work
- [00:39:32.670]in our description,
- [00:39:34.500]and hopefully it can make a difference
- [00:39:35.970]in your work and beyond.
- [00:39:37.440]And thank you--
- [00:39:38.273]If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
- [00:39:40.800]Yes. Feel free to ask.
- [00:39:41.970]Happy to write to you. Yes.
- [00:39:43.530]So we will have
- [00:39:46.050]an email?
- [00:39:47.100]Yes.
- [00:39:47.970]Connection so you can ask the questions
- [00:39:50.400]about being a generalist and how you can make a difference.
- [00:39:53.850]And thank you for tuning in to Not That Kind of Doctor.
- [00:39:57.450]Join us next time for another conversation
- [00:39:59.820]designed to inspire, challenge, and expand the way
- [00:40:05.100]what you think in graduate school and beyond is possible.
- [00:40:09.617](lively music)
- [00:40:14.904](no audio)
- [00:40:24.790](no audio)
The screen size you are trying to search captions on is too small!
You can always jump over to MediaHub and check it out there.
Log in to post comments
Embed
Copy the following code into your page
HTML
<div style="padding-top: 56.25%; overflow: hidden; position:relative; -webkit-box-flex: 1; flex-grow: 1;"> <iframe style="bottom: 0; left: 0; position: absolute; right: 0; top: 0; border: 0; height: 100%; width: 100%;" src="https://mediahub.unl.edu/media/24109?format=iframe&autoplay=0" title="Video Player: Not That Kind of Doctor - Expertise: Generalist and Specialist" allowfullscreen ></iframe> </div>
Comments
0 Comments