S2E3: Part 1- Sweet Dreams vs. Nightmares w. Dr. Helen Raikes
Nebraska Extension Early Childhood Program Area-Emily Manning, Dr. Holly Hatton, Ingrid Lindal, Erin Kampbell, Linda Reddish, Katie Krause, and LaDonna Werth
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10/15/2024
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In this episode, we interview Dr. Helen Raikes, a Willa Cather Professor Emeritus at the University of Nebraska about sleep routines and common fears children experience at night. She provides information on how to support adequate sleep for your child and work through overcoming fears at night.
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- [00:00:00.000]this is the good life in early life a production of nebraska extension i'm your host emily manning
- [00:00:14.440]an early childhood extension educator in seward county in this episode we're going to do another
- [00:00:20.480]topic requested by one of our great listeners and that's on sleep routines but since it's spooky
- [00:00:26.880]season we're going to add another element which is nightmares so in this episode today we're going
- [00:00:32.340]to have dr helen rakes and she's going to cover the amount of sleep needed by young children
- [00:00:37.040]common fears at night and other research related to sleep so i'm really looking forward to our
- [00:00:42.160]conversation with dr rakes we have our first guest here with us today dr helen rakes is a
- [00:00:48.560]willa cather professor emeritus at the university of nebraska where she previously taught courses
- [00:00:54.320]in infancy and early development she is perhaps the first person to be a doctor in the university
- [00:00:56.860]best known for her leadership with the early head start research and evaluation project
- [00:01:01.560]which was conducted in 17 communities across the united states today she is retired and lives in
- [00:01:07.620]ashland nebraska she and her late husband ron rakes have three children and six grandchildren
- [00:01:12.580]who range in age from 2 to 18 plenty to keep her busy welcome to the show dr helen rakes
- [00:01:19.300]so happy to have you here i'm glad to be here on this beautiful autumn day
- [00:01:23.920]thank you so much for the invitation yes
- [00:01:26.840]it is lovely outside i'm so happy that it finally feels like fall
- [00:01:30.460]especially during spooky season which is one of my favorite times of the year
- [00:01:34.760]let's start off with our first question which i'm altering a little bit if you're familiar
- [00:01:39.600]with the podcast usually i asked about a favorite childhood memory but today i'm going to ask you
- [00:01:44.980]since we're talking about sleep and nightmares what was your sleep routine as a child or
- [00:01:50.940]what comforted you as a child when you maybe were scared in the night yeah that
- [00:01:56.820]that's a really fun question and i will first of all say that was a long time ago
- [00:02:01.360]and so i needed to really think back like what was going on and i don't i don't have a lot of
- [00:02:08.660]memories from when i was a preschooler because i think that's kind of the age we're going to
- [00:02:12.820]focus on here during this podcast but i do remember we lived in an old farmhouse and
- [00:02:18.360]my bedroom was upstairs and my parents bedroom was at the base of the stairs and the stairs
- [00:02:23.600]themselves were quite creaky you know and so they could generate
- [00:02:26.800]noises and so forth but i don't remember you know being a sleepwalker or having night terrors or
- [00:02:33.020]that kind of thing but i do remember feeling distanced from them in the night and so sometimes
- [00:02:40.100]that could have been a little bit scary i'm sure i had the usual you know stuffed animals and
- [00:02:45.540]blankets and that sort of thing and i think my mother was pretty organized and so we had a good
- [00:02:50.960]routine you know and and it was comfortable i think for all of us but your question
- [00:02:56.780]was really a good one because it got me thinking about fears of children and so they it might be
- [00:03:04.080]related to sleep or sleep routines and this house too was one where if it was just an old house and
- [00:03:10.860]if she would step out of the house to go gather eggs or something like that you know for 20 minutes
- [00:03:15.800]and leave us kids alone i can remember being very frightened then you know and i would be
- [00:03:21.660]sure that the trees outside you know were turning into ghosts and that sort of thing and
- [00:03:26.760]so not perhaps remembering it so much associated with sleep but just remembering just the naturalness
- [00:03:33.240]of the fears once the secure base was out of range um i'm a great devotee and believer in
- [00:03:40.960]attachment theory and so you know a parent as a secure base allays a lot of fears and so forth
- [00:03:48.060]and that i remember because i did have was fortunate enough to have that i was also a child
- [00:03:53.160]who was really fascinated by fairy tales and
- [00:03:56.740]we don't hear as much about fairy tales today as they did perhaps when i was studying my doing my
- [00:04:03.560]graduate work but when i was a small child a wolf in sheep's clothing you know the three pigs snow
- [00:04:09.980]white the witch all those things i wanted those stories over and over and over again and so it
- [00:04:17.380]got me thinking your question did about the work of bruno betelheim that was quite notable in the
- [00:04:26.720]book called the uses of enchantment and basically the theory was that every child has fears you know
- [00:04:33.100]they all have know about monsters and so forth they might not be overt you know they might get
- [00:04:37.580]turned into real phobias or something like that but there's still just those conceptualizations
- [00:04:42.440]that children have because of where they are in their development he says all kids have have fears
- [00:04:47.980]and so the uses of enchantment or which is the enchantment is a fairy tale are there to like
- [00:04:55.080]give you a structure
- [00:04:56.700]as a young child for fighting your fears you know because of course you know the the goats that were
- [00:05:02.600]eaten were let out of the stomach because the wolf in sheep's clothing you know discovered them and
- [00:05:08.280]you know everything always turns out great you know in the most scary fairy tales of all and
- [00:05:14.120]that becomes a metaphor or symbolic for children dealing with their fears and so i think i might
- [00:05:20.720]have been one of those kids who who use fairy tales a lot you know without even knowing what
- [00:05:26.680]i was doing you know just being fascinated with them to help you conquer your fears yeah i think
- [00:05:31.860]so i guess that's neat yeah i'm just also thinking back on my own childhood and i also
- [00:05:37.620]really loved fairy tales and still have a a taste for fantasy in my reading and when i
- [00:05:45.840]went to bed every night my mom would read to me that was our routine that helped me get
- [00:05:51.200]settled for the evening i think i'm i'm more in touch with my grandchildren's routines
- [00:05:56.660]than i am was with my own and remembering back and because i have three young grandchildren
- [00:06:02.980]between the ages of two and seven and i they live nearby so i participate in their routines at night
- [00:06:09.480]an hour of preparation of settling down and they even know the words settling down okay now we're
- [00:06:16.420]settling down and it's usually right after dinner everything starts it goes into motion there might
- [00:06:21.700]be a bath every other night usually but sometimes more frequently and then they're brushing
- [00:06:26.640]teeth and then we do stories which i love because i live so close by i can pop over there and do
- [00:06:32.840]stories a couple times a week you know fun yeah it's so fun it's so super and you know their taste
- [00:06:38.700]with reading change and so forth too so you're able to really stick with their interests and
- [00:06:43.240]so then then there's just a little more of a quiet time and one by one they peel off and go to bed
- [00:06:50.760]you know the two-year-old first and then come out you know maybe a time or two perhaps
- [00:06:56.620]you know everybody got your water got you got your lovey do you have your stuffies and the
- [00:07:02.180]two-year-old usually wants a tractor in bed with him you know but oh that feels that would be
- [00:07:07.460]uncomfortable to me well you would think so it doesn't look soft but you know like massaging
- [00:07:11.980]the tires is something that he seems to really like to do or just rolling them back and forth
- [00:07:16.740]yeah so it works yeah i could see that so maybe just like sitting next to him
- [00:07:21.500]yeah kind of like a tactile right yeah not like
- [00:07:26.600]i'm gonna hold on to this tractor okay that makes more sense it's like not a stuffed owl
- [00:07:31.600]or a teddy bear but there's one of those in the bed too and then on the nights that i'm there but
- [00:07:37.840]i think it's i mean parents do the same thing we like to just go in and you know sit with them for
- [00:07:42.460]a few minutes and talk about the day and you know what are you grateful for what happened today
- [00:07:47.340]the typical line is grandma will you scratch my back you know and so you know just a little back
- [00:07:53.260]rubbing you know reminding them how great they are
- [00:07:56.580]and you know tomorrow's a new day you know that kind of thing too so it's a lovely ritual and
- [00:08:02.540]you know that parents have set that up really well well and i love that you're
- [00:08:06.880]still really involved like you go over there a couple nights a week that's amazing
- [00:08:10.760]and you know what a great time to know what's going on in the lives of your grandchildren
- [00:08:15.160]and keeping connected with them oh yeah i love that i love that so great we're gonna go ahead
- [00:08:20.800]and set the stage for this episode with just some baseline information for our listeners about
- [00:08:26.560]and and children during this early stage of development so how much sleep do children need
- [00:08:33.680]during the early years of life so we're talking from like birth to the age of five well they need
- [00:08:39.240]a lot of sleep and children from three on need from 10 to 13 hours of sleep a night so you know
- [00:08:47.000]if you do the math i mean that means we're going to bed pretty early if they have to get up for
- [00:08:52.080]school or preschool or something along those lines and even five to seven eight to nine
- [00:08:56.540]year olds need about that much sleep toddlers even more up to 14 15 hours a night and babies up to
- [00:09:05.080]16 17 hours a night so you know that's a lot of sleep that means sleep is really important and
- [00:09:11.120]why is it important sleep is important to all of us you know that's how we reset and we have
- [00:09:15.840]different kinds of sleep we have deep sleep we have just core sleep and then we have REM sleep
- [00:09:20.580]which is our dream sleep which will relate to our topic here of dreams and nightmares you know with
- [00:09:26.520]as well you know there's so much brain development going on during these early years and the sleep
- [00:09:32.180]and good nutrition in combination with each other you know sets the stage for those neurons you know
- [00:09:38.960]being whatever pathways that perhaps have developed during the day you know to be
- [00:09:44.980]underscored and accentuated and so forth you know set in place perhaps and so it's extremely
- [00:09:51.460]important to have a considerable amount of sleep. I'm glad that you pointed
- [00:09:56.500]out why sleep is important and the health benefits and learning benefits for children.
- [00:10:01.920]Children need sleep in order to remember what they have learned throughout the day
- [00:10:06.480]and we know that a lot of brain development is happening during infancy and that's probably why
- [00:10:12.820]they're sleeping so much is to help record and remember some of those things that are going on.
- [00:10:17.880]Well said yes. Yeah. I think some of the irony too is that when children are having trouble sleeping
- [00:10:26.480]missing that sweet spot that occurs with melatonin release in the early part of the evening, you know,
- [00:10:32.500]that helps them to settle down and so forth. But the ironic part is that when they are sleeping
- [00:10:38.740]less, sometimes it's because they're overtired. So they can't relax and settle into sleep. But
- [00:10:45.460]it's also why the routine is so important because the body acclimates, you know, and habituates
- [00:10:50.600]itself to that routine. And then it's, it's easier for your, your body to remember, you know, how
- [00:10:56.460]how it releases and to be honest, circadian rhythm that's consistent day after day.
- [00:11:01.560]Yeah. So it sounds like consistency is really important for children and kind of like there's
- [00:11:07.100]a window for when you can get a kid to sleep or even probably yourself too. This is probably true
- [00:11:12.960]as well. And if you miss that window and they're going to get overtired, it's going to be harder
- [00:11:16.800]for them to fall asleep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's ironic because they're more tired,
- [00:11:21.460]but they're even less able to get the sleep that they need, you know, but it may be more
- [00:11:26.440]true for some children than others and may be also a part of cultivation and habit, you know,
- [00:11:31.300]and so forth. But it does, it does seem to work that way that if they have a consistent bedtime
- [00:11:37.100]and an actual earlier bedtime that it sleep comes more readily. Thanks for sharing that information
- [00:11:42.860]and kind of led right into my next question. What does the research say about young children
- [00:11:47.220]having difficulties sleeping? So we've talked about falling asleep and some of the difficulties
- [00:11:52.760]around falling to sleep, but then also we know some children will wake up
- [00:11:56.420]during the night and will have difficulties falling back asleep then as well.
- [00:12:00.700]Right. Getting back to sleep. And I mean, sleep difficulties are not uncommon at all,
- [00:12:07.000]and they occur for lots and lots of reasons. You know, I mean, certainly there are physiological
- [00:12:12.760]reasons that could be a factor. I mean, even things like vitamin deficiencies and or things
- [00:12:18.340]that they've ingested during the day, like caffeine drinks and so forth, too, you know,
- [00:12:22.440]can interfere with sleep. Same is true for adults. So,
- [00:12:26.640]you know, there's that. It may be there are just noises in the house and on the street and so
- [00:12:32.200]forth, you know, that are distracting. A storm, for example, you know, is going to easily, I mean,
- [00:12:38.220]it wakes us all up, right? Or maybe light in the room, too, you know, makes it just that when they
- [00:12:44.300]wake up, it's kind of bright. And so dark, dark is important. But a lot of children want the lights
- [00:12:49.820]left on, you know, because it helps them ward off the monsters, you know, we've been talking about.
- [00:12:54.360]And so, but that, I mean,
- [00:12:56.380]there are different theories about how you just sort of start helping children get familiar with
- [00:13:00.480]less light in the room, you know, like gradually, you know, decreasing the amount of light in the
- [00:13:06.260]room. So you go from a bright light to more of a nightlight type of thing. So darker in the middle
- [00:13:11.760]of the night, but any of those things can be factors. And if they have a bad dream, that can
- [00:13:18.620]wake them up as well. And then their imagination, because we're talking about young children, and
- [00:13:26.360]relatively as rational as adults are, you know, and so it's easy for their imagination to be
- [00:13:32.940]sparked. Once they wake up, and once it gets going, they start hearing noises, and pretty
- [00:13:37.500]sure the monster's coming after them, or whatever, the wind is knocking a tree against the window.
- [00:13:43.380]It's like, there's a monster out there. And so then they get pretty riled up and
- [00:13:50.200]might need some comforting in order to get back to sleep. My two-year-old grandson, who
- [00:13:56.340]I picked up from childcare in Lincoln still at Ruth Staples, in fact, I picked him up the other
- [00:14:02.800]day and he met a couple of weeks ago and he said, Grandma, I was scared last night. And I said,
- [00:14:10.240]you know, I was just really perked up. I said, you were scared? What were you scared of? He said,
- [00:14:15.840]monsters. I said, oh, you had monsters last night. And then he said, well, thunder. Monsters were in
- [00:14:26.320]and we had had a big storm that night, you know, so, you know, but he was pretty sure the thunder
- [00:14:33.640]was a monster. I was going to come and get him. And so, you know, so we had some talk about that
- [00:14:39.740]and also about, I mean, he has a monitor in his room so he can ask for help, you know,
- [00:14:44.800]if he's scared. It's like, what will you do the next time, you know, you think the monsters are
- [00:14:50.100]in your room? And then we just talked a lot about thunder and storms and rain and, you know,
- [00:14:56.300]looking out the skylight and say, look, look at the sky now, look how blue it is. There's that,
- [00:15:00.640]we're not going to have a storm tonight, so it'll be okay. Yeah. Talking him through all those
- [00:15:06.580]things and setting a plan to help him the next time that happens. Right. That's very helpful.
- [00:15:12.920]He's, it sounds adorable. Oh, so cute. Indeed. Yeah.
- [00:15:18.430]So you had mentioned your two-year-old grandson who had nightmares about the thunder.
- [00:15:25.330]What do we know about nightmares and dreams in early childhood?
- [00:15:29.410]Yeah, children do have dreams, of course, like we do.
- [00:15:34.090]And we talked about consolidating the lessons of the day, you know, and dreams are a part
- [00:15:39.270]of how that happens.
- [00:15:40.810]And not every child has nightmares or even every child has them consistently, but some
- [00:15:47.490]children do have them more frequently and they become extremely scary for them, too.
- [00:15:53.370]And so then there's a little bit of work to do about talking about fears.
- [00:15:58.310]You know, there are a lot of books that are really great.
- [00:16:01.050]Today, there's so many books about dragons and scary things and where he like tames the
- [00:16:07.130]dragons and goes with them and then he's able to master, get mastery over the dragons.
- [00:16:14.110]So there are lots and lots of books of that nature.
- [00:16:17.350]That can be read with children.
- [00:16:18.770]I think too, you know, talking about what's real and what isn't, you know, your worry
- [00:16:24.990]brain and your smart brain and your, you know, let's talk about what's, what's really there.
- [00:16:31.530]You know, let's look under the bed, you know, is there really anything under there?
- [00:16:35.570]Look, but that doesn't always satisfy them.
- [00:16:37.630]You know, it's like they think, well, after you go away, the monster is going to come
- [00:16:42.790]back, you know, it's just out there right now, you know, but continue to have
- [00:16:47.210]that conversation.
- [00:16:48.330]And like any kind of fear, desensitization is a way of dealing with it where you
- [00:16:55.130]just make it a little bit, you approach a little closer all the time, you know, so
- [00:17:00.970]I was talking about light.
- [00:17:02.250]The child feels like they have to have light.
- [00:17:04.450]You don't turn off the light, cold turkey, you know, maybe just tone it down,
- [00:17:08.850]change the bulbs, you know, get it softer and softer.
- [00:17:11.590]And the same thing is true.
- [00:17:14.050]It's like little baby steps in dealing with things that you're
- [00:17:17.070]afraid of or if they having dreams about snakes or something like that,
- [00:17:21.270]you can visit them and see that they're mostly harmless.
- [00:17:24.390]And look, you know, like they're sleeping here.
- [00:17:27.350]It's like that they're not going to bother you.
- [00:17:29.310]They're not in our house.
- [00:17:30.350]But sometimes it takes a number of steps and a bit of time to work that through.
- [00:17:36.870]Yeah. And when you're talking about slowly desensitizing them and
- [00:17:41.450]reducing the amount of light in the bedroom, do you do that at night?
- [00:17:45.310]Like at one night?
- [00:17:46.930]Just starting off with the room light on and then shutting that off and having a lamp on
- [00:17:52.390]and then to the nightlight by the end before you leave.
- [00:17:56.690]Is that kind of what you're saying?
- [00:17:57.870]Yeah. But it might be you would do that over a period of a couple of weeks or so, you know,
- [00:18:04.150]so it's a comfortable process.
- [00:18:06.030]You know, maybe you bring in more room darkening shades and that type of thing.
- [00:18:11.390]You know, the more children can have mastery over the things that scare them in whatever,
- [00:18:16.790]whatever way suits them is, is a good thing.
- [00:18:19.430]And you were talking too about, you know, it's almost spook time, you know, two-year-olds
- [00:18:25.670]are often genuinely scared of people with masks on, you know, and you take it off and
- [00:18:31.630]put it on and take it off and put it on.
- [00:18:33.270]And they still, you know, they still have some fear around it.
- [00:18:36.610]And just to recognize that's just a normal developmental fear.
- [00:18:41.010]And it might be, I have to wait till they're age three until you, until you,
- [00:18:46.650]are able to, you know, do a full on Halloween with young children.
- [00:18:51.350]Earlier, you talked about a child's smart brain and their worry brain.
- [00:18:57.130]And I was wondering how you really teach children about those different parts of their brain
- [00:19:03.990]and how it benefits them for getting to sleep.
- [00:19:06.790]Sure.
- [00:19:07.430]That goes to the question with the child of what's real and what is more made up and that
- [00:19:15.230]they can begin.
- [00:19:16.510]To distinguish those two things, you know, but you may need to go back and forth, you
- [00:19:23.290]know, but you're going to give him or her a chance to investigate the fear with his
- [00:19:31.050]or her smart brain.
- [00:19:32.110]And so, you know, what, what does your smart brain say about this?
- [00:19:36.530]You know, when you, you know, when you look under your bed, is there really a monster
- [00:19:41.410]under, what does your smart brain say?
- [00:19:42.990]Put it in their own words, you know, what, what it is they're hearing.
- [00:19:46.370]Or, you know, if the branches were swinging against the window at night, you know, can
- [00:19:52.070]we go out and say, what does your smart brain say would be causing that noise?
- [00:19:56.290]You know, but it's that investigative work that, that smart brain can, can do, but letting
- [00:20:03.430]the child have the agency around figuring out, you know, or investigating what's happening
- [00:20:09.430]around the fear.
- [00:20:10.290]But once you start down a fear path, I mean, once they bring it to the surface, it's
- [00:20:16.230]sometimes it, you know, it takes several months or so to, you know, work through all the components
- [00:20:22.130]of it.
- [00:20:22.590]And maybe it'll seem like the child has gained mastery and then it'll pop up again.
- [00:20:28.250]And so we just have to be really patient and calm with it as adults, you know, but it doesn't
- [00:20:35.070]help to say, oh, you're just making that up.
- [00:20:37.710]You know, it's not real.
- [00:20:39.390]Don't worry about it.
- [00:20:40.290]Don't worry about it.
- [00:20:40.970]You can't say, don't worry about it because they are worrying about it, you know, and
- [00:20:44.630]they need to have their feelings.
- [00:20:46.090]It's affirmed.
- [00:20:47.050]Kind of a cute and humorous incident that occurred when my now 15-year-old granddaughter
- [00:20:53.270]was probably, you know, what, eight or nine or so.
- [00:20:56.190]And we'd gone to the swimming pool and the current seven-year-old was probably one and
- [00:21:00.550]a half.
- [00:21:00.870]And he was having a lot of trepidation around the water activities in the swimming pool.
- [00:21:07.790]And, you know, the water slided, she'd say to him, because she had learned this, face
- [00:21:12.850]your fears, face your fears, face your fears.
- [00:21:16.510]And, you know, of course, he had absolutely no idea what she was talking about, you know,
- [00:21:20.610]but it was the mantra that she had learned about being brave.
- [00:21:24.290]And I will say, too, I can't even tell you how many library books we've read around what
- [00:21:29.310]it means to be brave and face your fears is another component of it, but has a lot of
- [00:21:34.110]components, right?
- [00:21:35.250]You know, the fear factor has a lot of components.
- [00:21:39.570]Yeah, and it does have a lot of components to it.
- [00:21:44.070]And I was kind of reflecting on.
- [00:21:46.270]I've heard people say before about social-emotional kind of like curriculum.
- [00:21:51.190]And if we support children's social-emotional well-being, then they're not going to develop
- [00:21:56.150]like grit or perseverance.
- [00:21:57.610]But I think you know, and I know that that's not the case.
- [00:22:02.470]When we're supporting their social-emotional growth and helping them conquer these fears,
- [00:22:06.970]we're not letting them give in to the fears and just give up.
- [00:22:10.610]We're helping them become empowered to overcome the fears.
- [00:22:14.290]Yeah, right, right.
- [00:22:15.250]Well, yeah.
- [00:22:16.090]Very, very well said.
- [00:22:17.790]And, you know, it's also true that children, when they're sleeping well and are healthy and so forth,
- [00:22:25.110]they're less vulnerable to, you know, these moments, I guess, you know, of what we would call irrationality.
- [00:22:32.090]I mean, but we all have bad dreams from time to time, you know,
- [00:22:36.210]and they're sometimes frightening because they're so real.
- [00:22:39.190]You know, if we have good sleep hygiene and so forth, we have fewer of them.
- [00:22:43.370]My daughter, who lives nearby.
- [00:22:46.090]I called the other day and she sent me a text and she said, are you how is it?
- [00:22:50.610]How are you today? And I thought it was kind of strange. And I go, great.
- [00:22:53.310]And she said, I'm so glad I just had the weirdest dream last night.
- [00:22:56.670]I just had to check. So here we are. I mean, so here we are adults, you know,
- [00:23:02.030]but we have fears, too. But I think, you know,
- [00:23:04.830]also when children have irregular sleep habits and so forth, too, they're more,
- [00:23:08.830]you know, they're more prone to these vulnerabilities, I think, too,
- [00:23:13.230]you know, that comes a downward spiral.
- [00:23:16.350]Yeah, because if they're not getting enough sleep because they're scared,
- [00:23:18.890]then it's going to continue.
- [00:23:19.950]And like you said, it's a downward spiral that's going to take a lot of work to get out of that.
- [00:23:24.950]But you can get out of it.
- [00:23:26.190]It's doable.
- [00:23:26.930]But going back to the 10 to 13 hours, you know, versus six or seven or something like that,
- [00:23:33.510]as an adult might be fine with is going to help help get that normalized.
- [00:23:38.090]Yeah, absolutely.
- [00:23:39.510]And so you have mentioned I mentioned, too, that we're we're in spooky season now and yeah,
- [00:23:46.090]you're talking that things can be like genuinely scary to children and things that we might not realize as adults who have kind of grown up face some of these fears.
- [00:23:56.830]So what are some things that children find scary and then how does that impact their sleep at night?
- [00:24:04.930]Well, I mean, as I mentioned to two year olds, don't don't often get it about the mask, you know.
- [00:24:11.910]And so they think when someone's got a mask on, you know, that is scary.
- [00:24:16.090]And it has changed them, you know, and you can take it on and off and on and off.
- [00:24:19.870]And they still you know, they still get scared when the mask goes on.
- [00:24:23.150]They might be scared when somebody appears at the door for trick or treating older kids.
- [00:24:28.290]I think it's more around the haunted house and that type of thing.
- [00:24:32.050]And, you know, and they and if they're brave, they love like going through it, you know.
- [00:24:36.750]And so as they get older, you know, they know it's not real.
- [00:24:41.110]And so, you know, or but they still may find it kind of scary.
- [00:24:46.090]Yeah. I mean, I think kids might not sleep as well on Halloween because they've also had too much candy, you know, and they're just excited.
- [00:24:54.950]You still have to settle down after going trick or treating.
- [00:24:57.690]But, you know, so there is that.
- [00:25:01.470]I think by the time they get to older to be older preschoolers, they they understand what's going on and they just love it.
- [00:25:08.650]But it's also goes to that Bruno Bettelheim thing of using scary things to help you deal with.
- [00:25:16.090]It's scary that you already know that you're feeling at some place inside of you because you're of that age, you know, and those fears, whether they're more overt or covert, kind of latent, you know, there that it's exciting.
- [00:25:31.350]It's exciting to participate in dressing up and being a scary creature.
- [00:25:36.910]That's what what the child wants to be that year.
- [00:25:39.390]You know, sometimes they're happy to just be soft creatures or to be like a superhero.
- [00:25:44.430]Right.
- [00:25:46.090]Which is empowering, you know?
- [00:25:49.250]Yeah.
- [00:25:49.930]How might how might those scary things impact children's sleep?
- [00:25:55.010]So if they saw a scary movie or if they saw somebody in a mask on Halloween when they
- [00:26:00.650]answered the door for trick or treating, how might that impact them later at night?
- [00:26:04.390]You might just expect somebody to wake up and yeah, you know, and cry out about that
- [00:26:11.150]or it might come up at breakfast the next day, you know, and you ought to you ought
- [00:26:15.450]to be open.
- [00:26:16.090]Or just maybe the kids talk about it at school because they're still on their mind.
- [00:26:22.230]But I think you would expect it, you know, and you can also do doll play or something
- [00:26:26.470]like that to role play, you know, if they're kind of stuck with it again, just kind of
- [00:26:32.990]play it through, you know, and bring a superhero in or their smart brain, you know, again,
- [00:26:38.690]too.
- [00:26:39.030]Yeah, awesome tips.
- [00:26:40.550]Awesome tips for that.
- [00:26:41.690]And then just final question for you today, Dr. Rakes is how can.
- [00:26:46.090]We as adults help support children's sleep.
- [00:26:48.890]What are some final tips and thoughts on supporting children?
- [00:26:52.530]Well, and maybe more just to summarize some of the things that we've talked about, and
- [00:26:57.410]that's that children need a lot of sleep.
- [00:27:00.010]And if we respect them, we'll be sure that they get it because they probably won't be
- [00:27:06.550]able to set their own routines.
- [00:27:08.170]And that means, you know, we talked about 10 to 13 hours of sleep for preschoolers and
- [00:27:14.270]even young elementary.
- [00:27:16.090]So that's a lot.
- [00:27:17.410]It means you're going to bed at seven or eight o'clock at night, you know, depending on what
- [00:27:21.630]time they get up in the morning.
- [00:27:23.010]When you get to the upper preschool ages and school age, they're not taking naps anymore.
- [00:27:27.850]So they need to get up pretty much at night.
- [00:27:30.690]And by having a routine that's the same every day, it seems rigid.
- [00:27:34.730]It's like, what do you mean?
- [00:27:35.970]You know, well, what if we'd stay up an extra hour or two hours tonight?
- [00:27:40.070]Well, then you get off the circadian rhythm.
- [00:27:42.830]And so you need to get it back, you know, and if you're going to do that, you're going
- [00:27:46.090]to get it back because sometimes it's worth it.
- [00:27:47.450]You know, you want to get back in the routine as fast as you can.
- [00:27:51.410]And all those lovely things that adults and children get to do together in the evening.
- [00:27:55.970]That's, you know, really quite beautiful.
- [00:27:58.070]The nice warm bath and reading stories is so cuddly and so wonderful.
- [00:28:03.390]And you find out what they're thinking and brushing your teeth and thinking about the
- [00:28:08.250]new day and laying out your clothes, you know, and celebrating what might have happened in
- [00:28:13.290]that day.
- [00:28:13.810]Or if you do prayers, you know, or.
- [00:28:16.090]Gratitude or something like that, and just lying together for a minute or two, you know,
- [00:28:20.870]it's just it's really a lovely connecting time.
- [00:28:24.710]It might be one of the most important connections of the day, you know, and all of that sets
- [00:28:31.130]the stage for, well, it does many things because it calms the child down and it gets
- [00:28:35.750]them ready for sleep.
- [00:28:36.590]But it also brings the parent and child together in a sweeter relationship, you know, reaffirms
- [00:28:43.210]their relationship and their sense of security.
- [00:28:46.090]That a child will have to.
- [00:28:47.550]I was smiling a lot during your answer.
- [00:28:49.950]And I have to say this out loud because listeners can't see that I'm smiling.
- [00:28:53.250]So I'm like stating that I was smiling a lot because I was just bringing back all those
- [00:28:57.790]memories too.
- [00:28:58.490]And I think it just highlights for me, some of my fondest memories are from bedtime.
- [00:29:02.910]And like, that's just such a wonderful time to connect with parent and child.
- [00:29:08.470]And so we can really carry that forward or build that.
- [00:29:12.130]If we didn't have that for ourselves when we were children, we can build that for our
- [00:29:16.090]own children and just have that really special time to share with one another.
- [00:29:20.390]Yeah.
- [00:29:20.930]Yeah.
- [00:29:21.470]Thanks for sharing your wisdom and the research with us today, Dr. Rakes.
- [00:29:26.410]Appreciate it having you on the podcast.
- [00:29:28.170]This was a lovely conversation and hope to have you on again to share your wealth of
- [00:29:33.030]knowledge with us.
- [00:29:34.030]Well, thank you so much.
- [00:29:35.270]It was fun to think about these experiences and to reflect on them with you.
- [00:29:40.670]Good luck to you with your podcast going forward.
- [00:29:43.030]Thank you.
- [00:29:44.270]Appreciate it.
- [00:29:45.030]Next.
- [00:29:46.090]Next up, we're going to hear from a young Nebraskan about the type of ice cream flavor
- [00:29:49.830]they would invent.
- [00:29:50.670]You know, like there's like this ice cream, like tin that has three different kinds, like
- [00:29:56.290]strawberry, chocolate, vanilla.
- [00:29:59.050]I would try the mix, um, like and I can mix it all together and make one big flavor.
- [00:30:04.310]This has been another episode of The Good Life in Early Life, a Nebraska Extension early
- [00:30:10.710]childhood production with your host, Emily Manning.
- [00:30:13.070]For more information on early childhood, check out our website.
- [00:30:16.090]If you like the show, subscribe and tell your friends to listen.
- [00:30:20.610]The show production team is Emily Manning, Dr. Holly Hatton, Aaron Campbell, Ingrid Lindahl,
- [00:30:25.670]Linda Reddish, Kim Walsant, Katie Krause, and LaDonna Wirth.
- [00:30:29.310]See you next time and thanks for listening.
- [00:30:31.390]Bye-bye.
- [00:30:32.230]- Bye.
- [00:30:33.070]you
- [00:30:35.130]you
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