Not That Kind of Doctor - Getting Past the Zoom Interview
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04/25/2024
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Are you struggling to get past the Zoom interview stage in your academic job search? You're not alone! In this episode of Not That Kind of Doctor, Guy and Nick are breaking down the do's and don'ts of Zoom interviews and sharing insider tips to help you stand out from the crowd. Whether you're an early career academic or just trying to land that perfect job, they've got you covered.
🗣️ What You'll Learn:
The importance of preparation and having a solid plan
How to effectively communicate your skills and fit for the job
The nuances of Zoom interviews vs. phone interviews
How to handle the challenge of being a "padding" candidate
Join us as we discuss the critical steps you can take to increase your odds of moving from the Zoom interview to the coveted campus visit. And remember, it’s not just about answering questions—it's about making a lasting impression.
If you're preparing for a Zoom interview, this episode is a must-watch. Like, comment, and subscribe for more insights into navigating the academic job market. 🎯
#JobMarketTips #AcademicCareers #GraduateStudents #FacultyPositions
#AcademicJobs #AcademicCareer #Academia #ZoomInterview #InterviewPrep #InterviewPreparation
www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor
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- [00:00:00.425](upbeat music)
- [00:00:10.320]How's your coffee? How's my coffee?
- [00:00:12.900]Eh, fantastic, I love Duncan coffee.
- [00:00:15.090]They're not paying us again.
- [00:00:16.950]They're not, I'm very jealous,
- [00:00:18.240]'cause notice I have water. What happened?
- [00:00:21.780]I'm a braces boy now, oh, speaking of high school.
- [00:00:28.950]And so now I have to be very efficient
- [00:00:31.350]around when I drink and eat things.
- [00:00:35.640]Oh, wow. Because you're only allowed
- [00:00:38.040]to have them off for two hours a day.
- [00:00:41.310]Oh, wow. Yeah, uh-huh.
- [00:00:42.930]I have never had that experience, so.
- [00:00:45.300]I mean, look, this is only day two, only day two.
- [00:00:49.650]And I just have to remember I did this to myself
- [00:00:53.430]and it's gonna be fine. Oh, it's gonna be great.
- [00:00:56.340]Because you know, like at the end of the day,
- [00:01:01.290]I'm trying to set myself up
- [00:01:02.610]for like easy tooth care in old age.
- [00:01:07.590]This is where I'm at. All right.
- [00:01:09.030]So hence the water and the slight speech impediment.
- [00:01:12.780]I think I have a little bit of a lisp now.
- [00:01:16.230]Maybe. Potentially.
- [00:01:18.150]Very little. Okay, great.
- [00:01:19.920]That's good. Because we're sure.
- [00:01:21.810]Well, yes, that, and I'm thinking
- [00:01:23.370]about how am I going to teach articulation in the fall.
- [00:01:26.811](laughs) That is true. So there's all these things
- [00:01:29.910]that I haven't thought about,
- [00:01:32.070]but you know what I have thought about?
- [00:01:33.300]What? Jobs.
- [00:01:36.043]Jobs. You know why?
- [00:01:37.221]Always big jobs. Because that's our wreath.
- [00:01:38.790]Yes, yes, it is, jobs, everybody's gotta get the job.
- [00:01:43.500]We want people to have jobs. Yeah.
- [00:01:45.240]So today on "Not that Kind of Doctor,"
- [00:01:48.450]we are going to talk about Zoom interviews.
- [00:01:51.960]And what happens when you can't seem
- [00:01:54.930]to get past that Zoom interview.
- [00:01:57.450]So I'm Nick Husbye, I'm an associate professor
- [00:01:59.910]of Elementary Literacy Education here at UNL.
- [00:02:03.060]I'm Guy Trainin, professor of education at UNL.
- [00:02:05.640]And we're talking
- [00:02:06.990]about why can't I get past the Zoom interview?
- [00:02:09.607]Well, and I think before we dig into specifically
- [00:02:13.800]that question, let's remind everyone
- [00:02:16.380]what the function of a Zoom interview is, right?
- [00:02:19.830]Because pre-COVID, pre-explosion
- [00:02:25.500]of teleconference technology, Zoom, Skype,
- [00:02:29.250]et cetera, et cetera, Teams,
- [00:02:31.740]there used to be this phone interview as kind of the,
- [00:02:36.171]it's kind of a large screener, let's say,
- [00:02:42.750]when institutions would be doing job searches, right?
- [00:02:46.830]How would you describe the function
- [00:02:48.900]of that first screening interview?
- [00:02:51.660]Like, what do candidates need to do
- [00:02:55.590]in that interview?
- [00:02:58.290]So I wanna take it back
- [00:02:59.370]because I wanna talk about the phone interview
- [00:03:01.819]'cause I think the phone interview was very different.
- [00:03:03.570]That's one of the things
- [00:03:04.560]that people have not realized changed.
- [00:03:06.750]And this is why we're talking about this today.
- [00:03:08.550]The phone interview was very different
- [00:03:11.760]in most of my experiences, both conducting them
- [00:03:14.010]and going through them.
- [00:03:15.330]And that is, the phone interview used to be with two
- [00:03:17.730]or three people most of the time.
- [00:03:19.860]And they had very precise questions
- [00:03:21.900]where they were clarifying things or asking a few questions.
- [00:03:25.413]They were taking notes
- [00:03:26.610]and then bringing it back to committee.
- [00:03:28.440]It was rarely recorded and then shared.
- [00:03:31.920]What's different is Zoom interview
- [00:03:34.560]are often with more people,
- [00:03:36.120]because from a time management perspective,
- [00:03:38.070]people don't have to be in the same room.
- [00:03:39.510]They can easily be in multiple places.
- [00:03:41.520]That was always true of the phone,
- [00:03:43.020]but somehow it never happened.
- [00:03:46.080]So you've got potentially more people coming in.
- [00:03:49.470]And the second thing is it is often recorded,
- [00:03:52.140]and therefore you have to think, not just,
- [00:03:55.230]this is the conversation I'm having with these two people,
- [00:03:58.290]but, or three people or many ever.
- [00:04:00.360]So if it's a big group, it's a big group.
- [00:04:01.950]And that creates its own difficulty
- [00:04:03.750]because you don't know exactly who you're talking to.
- [00:04:06.180]And so you're talking to a wide audience.
- [00:04:07.770]And in the same way, even if there are only two
- [00:04:09.960]or three people, which we've done a, participated both
- [00:04:13.500]as an applicant and as a person
- [00:04:18.480]who's doing the interviewing considerably more often,
- [00:04:20.970]and that is, you are recording it
- [00:04:23.040]and others may very well be watching it.
- [00:04:25.410]So you're talking to the people in front of you
- [00:04:26.970]and you're trying to connect with them,
- [00:04:28.050]but at the same time, you're talking to a wider audience,
- [00:04:30.540]which is very different than, for example,
- [00:04:32.070]when I got the job here, I got a phone call,
- [00:04:34.470]they had a few questions, it was a long time ago,
- [00:04:37.530]but it was between me and two people on the phone.
- [00:04:40.860]And that was it.
- [00:04:42.630]They just had a small report to bring back to the committee.
- [00:04:46.290]And that's a very different, I think, way
- [00:04:48.270]to present yourself at that moment.
- [00:04:49.800]Because for me at least, it's very easy
- [00:04:52.260]to create a connection with the person I'm talking to,
- [00:04:54.330]even on the phone, definitely on Zoom.
- [00:04:56.310]But the minute it becomes wider
- [00:04:57.690]or you're speaking to people who aren't there,
- [00:04:59.580]you don't want them to feel
- [00:05:00.690]like they're out of the conversation
- [00:05:02.880]because you're talking to this person.
- [00:05:04.260]So for me, that is part of the challenge
- [00:05:08.790]in thinking about what is the difference.
- [00:05:11.760]But what I love, and I did want to pull that to one thing,
- [00:05:15.360]what the Zoom interviews have helped, I think,
- [00:05:17.790]is to expand the pool and to give people a better chance
- [00:05:21.240]to make it to the final three.
- [00:05:24.030]So people who maybe would not have gotten a chance
- [00:05:27.150]now are getting a chance
- [00:05:29.220]because we can easily widen the pool.
- [00:05:32.550]And for example, in the recent search we had
- [00:05:35.490]for our technology position,
- [00:05:37.920]educational technology position, I think we had nine
- [00:05:42.000]or maybe even more than nine Zoom interviews.
- [00:05:44.790]About that. Yeah.
- [00:05:45.990]So usually even if we called and did the screener,
- [00:05:49.860]it was usually on five or six,
- [00:05:51.810]and now suddenly we can look at nine,
- [00:05:54.240]which means you've got a better chance
- [00:05:56.280]to get to that first phase,
- [00:05:58.470]but that doesn't mean you go beyond.
- [00:06:00.750]But in an effort to diversify, that's a great opportunity
- [00:06:04.530]for people who might look a little bit different
- [00:06:06.780]than others and things like that.
- [00:06:08.820]Right, and so one of the biggest challenges
- [00:06:11.430]of that preliminary interview, like you said,
- [00:06:15.240]was how do you both build relationships
- [00:06:18.450]within that particular space?
- [00:06:20.580]Like you need to create, you know, kind of these,
- [00:06:25.050]you want someone in that interview to be rooting for you.
- [00:06:28.740]Right, so like how do you create that relationship
- [00:06:33.090]but also convey for the folks who might be listening to it
- [00:06:37.230]or watching it on the replay, a demonstration
- [00:06:40.470]of why you for that particular position, right?
- [00:06:44.610]So you have to kind of balance those things out.
- [00:06:49.530]And I think one of the biggest things
- [00:06:54.450]that you can do within a Zoom is have a plan.
- [00:06:59.490]Mm-hmm, absolutely, you must have a plan.
- [00:07:01.560]You've gotta have a plan, right?
- [00:07:03.543]Like there is some level
- [00:07:07.290]of specificity that's required in that Zoom interview,
- [00:07:11.670]because they're maybe 15 minutes long,
- [00:07:16.620]20 minutes long if you're lucky.
- [00:07:19.500]And so if you don't have a plan going into that
- [00:07:25.020]to describe kind of what it
- [00:07:27.630]is that you can bring to that position,
- [00:07:30.780]and how you're thinking about that position
- [00:07:32.460]and how you're aligning yourself
- [00:07:34.203]with the work already being done within that department
- [00:07:37.500]and that institution, you're kind of wasting an opportunity
- [00:07:42.480]to match those things up.
- [00:07:44.160]And the preparation is important,
- [00:07:45.930]even if you're really confident
- [00:07:48.030]about your ability to talk through anything,
- [00:07:50.640]because maybe you can, but you will not have the time.
- [00:07:53.820]So I'll give an example, a 30 minute interview,
- [00:07:59.910]and the people who are interviewing, usually us, are saying,
- [00:08:05.317]"We have seven questions."
- [00:08:06.660]Now think about this, seven questions,
- [00:08:09.420]and there's at the end a question that you can ask us
- [00:08:12.300]on a 30 minute interview, which is quite long,
- [00:08:15.180]there's an opportunity there.
- [00:08:16.620]But that means that the average answer is four minutes.
- [00:08:19.380]That means that you don't have time to talk yourself
- [00:08:22.860]and think while you're talking about this question.
- [00:08:25.500]If you don't have a reasonable answer ready
- [00:08:28.080]for most of these questions,
- [00:08:30.030]you are going to stretch the time
- [00:08:31.710]and actually miss the mark.
- [00:08:33.270]Or they'll have to cut you off
- [00:08:34.440]and move to the next questions
- [00:08:36.150]while you have not answered it
- [00:08:38.070]because you didn't get to that point.
- [00:08:40.020]So you've got to be ready for the specificity
- [00:08:43.530]and you gotta write yourself some kind of,
- [00:08:45.600]what are my top three points for those questions?
- [00:08:48.300]And you can get, right, what they're looking for,
- [00:08:51.600]because that's why they write the ad.
- [00:08:53.580]Right, right, so you can do some digging into the ad.
- [00:08:56.910]What's been done there.
- [00:08:57.990]Leverage your network, see what's happening
- [00:08:59.880]at that particular institution.
- [00:09:02.160]And I like to,
- [00:09:06.180]when I get an invite to go to this preliminary interview,
- [00:09:10.597]"Hey, can you tell me who's gonna be there?
- [00:09:12.600]Can you tell me how many questions
- [00:09:13.890]and how much time is allotted?"
- [00:09:16.401]And then what that does is, again,
- [00:09:19.830]I always think it's n plus one
- [00:09:21.390]'cause it's the number of questions that they're gonna ask,
- [00:09:23.430]plus, do you have any questions for us?
- [00:09:26.250]And I divide the amount of time by the questions
- [00:09:31.080]and plan that out. Yes.
- [00:09:31.920]And so while I'm on this interview.
- [00:09:34.779]And I have the timer on, actually.
- [00:09:36.300]Wow, I'm so proud of you, because I do too.
- [00:09:39.120]I have my stopwatch. Yeah.
- [00:09:40.560]I gotta know where I am. Great.
- [00:09:42.990]Otherwise it's not gonna work out.
- [00:09:44.880]And I warn the committee as I talk,
- [00:09:49.140]like this is what I've done,
- [00:09:51.360]this is how I'm approaching this.
- [00:09:52.890]I want to make sure that I am both, you know,
- [00:09:55.620]I've been in your position.
- [00:09:59.790]I want you to know that I value your time.
- [00:10:03.690]And so this is what I'm doing.
- [00:10:06.810]I always have kind of a cheat sheet next to me.
- [00:10:08.730]Like, here's the big points,
- [00:10:10.230]here's the stuff that I highlighted in my cover letter.
- [00:10:12.390]Here's some additional information that they might not have.
- [00:10:15.090]And then as they ask questions,
- [00:10:17.190]if they haven't given me the questions,
- [00:10:19.560]and that's a new thing as well,
- [00:10:21.240]sometimes they'll just send you the questions
- [00:10:23.370]that they're gonna ask within that Zoom interview.
- [00:10:25.950]And I would not resist the urge
- [00:10:29.940]to write out your response to those questions
- [00:10:32.340]and read them aloud like,
- [00:10:33.240]that hasn't read well, that hasn't gone well.
- [00:10:34.875]No, that sounds mechanical, inauthentic.
- [00:10:38.315]But definitely like highlight stuff.
- [00:10:40.170]And if they haven't given you the questions, I always like
- [00:10:42.210]to write the question down, give myself about 30 ish,
- [00:10:45.930]15 ish seconds to think about it,
- [00:10:48.240]jot my three bullet points, and then I go.
- [00:10:50.820]And that helps keep me on task with that.
- [00:10:53.220]And another request you can make, there are a few things,
- [00:10:57.360]I think I've talked about them before
- [00:10:58.890]when we talked about this,
- [00:10:59.880]but I think it's important to remind, one thing is, again,
- [00:11:03.330]fairly new is because these are Zoom interviews I've seen,
- [00:11:07.290]and we have done this, people,
- [00:11:09.090]if they didn't send you the questions in advance,
- [00:11:11.580]which is great, but if they didn't,
- [00:11:13.620]they can cut and paste them into the chat.
- [00:11:17.370]So while you're talking, you can, if you have that moment
- [00:11:21.240]where you're like, what was I talking about,
- [00:11:23.700]not a good moment, but it can happen
- [00:11:25.440]because you start walking down the line
- [00:11:27.510]and you got lost a little bit,
- [00:11:29.400]that question is there.
- [00:11:30.840]You can look at it and say, did I answer it
- [00:11:33.930]before I say, okay, I'm done, we're moving on.
- [00:11:37.290]That is one way.
- [00:11:38.820]And the second thing is, especially
- [00:11:42.120]if you are having a challenge with the language
- [00:11:44.340]or you're not feeling 100% confident,
- [00:11:46.380]or you have a difficulty hearing, I have both,
- [00:11:52.590]English is not my first language
- [00:11:53.940]and I have difficulty hearing,
- [00:11:55.410]you can ask to activate the closed captions.
- [00:11:58.350]They're not perfect,
- [00:11:59.610]but they help kind of anchor what is happening,
- [00:12:06.510]especially if the questions are longer and complex.
- [00:12:09.090]If the questions are short and you have them in advance,
- [00:12:11.130]it matters a lot less.
- [00:12:13.440]But if there are follow up questions
- [00:12:15.870]and things like that, it does help.
- [00:12:18.510]And that's something that may be worth considering,
- [00:12:22.050]again, if this is a challenge.
- [00:12:24.840]And you can ask for it in advance,
- [00:12:26.940]and I've never had anybody say, "Well,
- [00:12:30.600]we don't want to do that," so.
- [00:12:32.460]Yeah, no, and to that asking in advance,
- [00:12:35.010]if they don't offer that up in the beginning,
- [00:12:37.260]if they don't front load with that,
- [00:12:38.880]definitely submit that request.
- [00:12:40.710]Like they are interviewing you
- [00:12:43.260]because they're interested in you.
- [00:12:45.630]And they want to do everything in their power.
- [00:12:49.350]To accommodate. To get more information
- [00:12:52.350]about who you are, what's going on.
- [00:12:57.660]And so, I feel like that brings us
- [00:13:00.030]to our second kind of space, which is this notion
- [00:13:03.930]of why don't folks tend to move on from Zoom interviews?
- [00:13:08.520]And I mean, one of the largest questions is math.
- [00:13:16.470]Like it's just. Yes, yes.
- [00:13:17.940]Math. Yeah.
- [00:13:20.610]You know, when you've got, you know,
- [00:13:25.274]200 applicants for a single position, for one position,
- [00:13:30.000]and you've whittled that down to nine,
- [00:13:32.760]and then you move that into three
- [00:13:34.590]and ultimately to one,
- [00:13:36.930]that's a huge statistical hurdle to overcome, right?
- [00:13:42.330]But keeping that in mind, there's some things
- [00:13:45.600]that you can do to kind of play that game.
- [00:13:50.010]Yeah, and improve your odds. And improve your odds.
- [00:13:51.557]But it's still odds, and part of the odds
- [00:13:54.450]that you can't see is who are the other candidates?
- [00:13:58.680]Because people apply for all sorts of reasons.
- [00:14:03.000]And if you are just exiting graduate school
- [00:14:07.020]and you are a new minted doctor, "Not that Kind of Doctor,"
- [00:14:13.571]and suddenly in that pool, there might be a few people
- [00:14:18.750]who are two, three years in in a different institution
- [00:14:23.070]and they're looking to move,
- [00:14:24.450]their profile is gonna look very different than yours.
- [00:14:27.750]That's not necessarily an up or down,
- [00:14:29.370]but they're going to look different.
- [00:14:31.320]So if the search committee is excited about experience
- [00:14:39.030]and about having a leg up because they need, for example,
- [00:14:41.370]somebody who can lead a little bit more and is more secure
- [00:14:43.830]than somebody who's just starting a position,
- [00:14:47.430]they might prefer that, and that will be totally invisible.
- [00:14:50.100]So sometimes you don't get passed because of the math
- [00:14:52.950]and because you don't see who the other candidates are.
- [00:14:55.770]Right, so again,
- [00:14:58.350]oftentimes it's rarely about anything that any one person,
- [00:15:03.420]it's really not about you, it's about the system
- [00:15:06.720]and how academia is set up.
- [00:15:09.150]But there are, again, some things that you can do
- [00:15:12.150]in order to improve your odds, right?
- [00:15:14.910]And I think the first is, we've talked about this
- [00:15:18.690]in our last segment, but like, the lack
- [00:15:23.430]of a focused presence in that Zoom interview
- [00:15:27.900]is not going to do you any good.
- [00:15:32.130]And I think that there is this kind of perception
- [00:15:36.870]that, oh, I'm just gonna talk off the cuff
- [00:15:40.140]and they're gonna really resonate with my passion
- [00:15:42.960]and it's going to go really, really well.
- [00:15:45.750]But as someone who's been on the interviewer end of that,
- [00:15:53.010]it feels disjointed, it feels scattered, it feels like,
- [00:15:58.830]I'm not quite sure what you're going to bring
- [00:16:03.360]to the table if we invite you for a campus interview.
- [00:16:06.810]Yeah. If there's a lack of focus
- [00:16:08.910]and a lack of a lack of research, like again,
- [00:16:13.920]know who's on that committee,
- [00:16:15.420]know who's going to be on that phone call.
- [00:16:18.000]Yeah. And do just a little bit
- [00:16:20.520]of Googling, because that's gonna help you.
- [00:16:25.710]And going back to know something about the department,
- [00:16:28.710]especially in the cases that they're recording it,
- [00:16:31.950]and then a much wider committee.
- [00:16:33.570]So know the whole committee, not just the people there.
- [00:16:35.700]The people there are important, but again,
- [00:16:37.590]you're talking to a wider audience at that point
- [00:16:39.540]because it's often recorded.
- [00:16:41.040]So think about how do I prepare for that, stay focused,
- [00:16:44.760]know a lot about the institution and resist the urge
- [00:16:52.860]to say something like, "Well, I do need a job,"
- [00:16:57.000]which is very true, right, very true.
- [00:17:00.840]You do need the job most likely,
- [00:17:02.730]or you wouldn't be applying.
- [00:17:03.934]I would like health insurance, please.
- [00:17:04.767]And it is, yes, and you may have a family
- [00:17:07.050]or you may have other issues,
- [00:17:09.120]but that cannot be the reason you applied.
- [00:17:12.210]That is not what you tell the committee.
- [00:17:15.480]And also, they know that's why you are applying.
- [00:17:19.590]They don't think you're applying because you have a fortune
- [00:17:22.740]and you're just playing in your spare time.
- [00:17:24.720]They know that you need this job and that you're interested,
- [00:17:28.440]but they want to understand why you are a good fit
- [00:17:31.770]for that place at this time.
- [00:17:35.040]And to that notion of fit, like another thing
- [00:17:36.870]that you want to pay attention to
- [00:17:38.490]is paying attention to the job description.
- [00:17:43.230]Yeah. And being sure
- [00:17:44.220]that you're aligning your talk
- [00:17:45.720]with what that job description is.
- [00:17:47.700]And if you're not, I mean,
- [00:17:51.240]I see this in literacy education all the time,
- [00:17:54.990]reading education all the time where part
- [00:17:59.130]of what the institution is looking for is someone
- [00:18:02.790]to teach foundational reading skills.
- [00:18:08.550]So ground your talk in foundational reading skills
- [00:18:13.620]versus like a, oh, I'm looking at post human structures
- [00:18:20.580]and literacy instruction.
- [00:18:22.320]That's not foundational reading skills.
- [00:18:24.510]Those are two very different things.
- [00:18:26.280]One is teaching content, one is research, right?
- [00:18:30.750]Can you do both of these things
- [00:18:33.270]when you're talking about this, when you're talking about
- [00:18:37.290]that teaching need right there
- [00:18:40.200]and ensuring that all of that lines up, right?
- [00:18:47.760]Part of what you're trying to do is infer the needs
- [00:18:52.080]of the department based upon the job description
- [00:18:54.540]and talking about how you match that up, right?
- [00:19:00.570]Yeah. And so, what
- [00:19:05.250]are the kind of like, given those kind of pitfalls,
- [00:19:09.240]what are some of the ways that grad students
- [00:19:11.820]and or early career academics can move outta those pitfalls?
- [00:19:18.750]Like are there other structural things
- [00:19:20.190]that you would recommend that they do?
- [00:19:21.300]We've talked about a couple of strategies, but.
- [00:19:23.490]Yeah, so it's always in the prep, prep.
- [00:19:29.550]Have somebody think up,
- [00:19:31.170]use the people in the department you're in
- [00:19:36.210]to maybe send you questions from a similar position
- [00:19:39.840]or from a different position,
- [00:19:41.010]but you can kind of transpose that.
- [00:19:42.780]And first of all, practice, practice being able
- [00:19:44.850]to give short answers that are to the point,
- [00:19:49.890]thinking about what are the two,
- [00:19:51.300]three points I wanna make with that?
- [00:19:54.210]And make sure, again, the third line.
- [00:19:56.190]So look at what you're trying to say
- [00:19:59.400]and think about who are they
- [00:20:01.950]and is this what you need to say?
- [00:20:03.480]I mean, one of my stories is about me realizing halfway
- [00:20:08.400]through a presentation, this is already on a campus visit,
- [00:20:10.890]but me realizing halfway through the presentation
- [00:20:13.320]to the faculty, I can see their eyes,
- [00:20:15.990]and then it dawns on me
- [00:20:17.370]that I'm doing the wrong presentation,
- [00:20:18.990]the wrong research presentation.
- [00:20:21.030]And so, that is because I didn't think through,
- [00:20:25.650]I was really excited about the topic I was doing.
- [00:20:27.870]It was something I felt really comfortable presenting on.
- [00:20:30.570]It was the wrong thing to do.
- [00:20:33.377]And at that moment, it was clear to me,
- [00:20:36.390]I mean, there were other reasons,
- [00:20:37.620]but it was clear to me that this is not going to happen
- [00:20:40.980]because I made the mistake and I made that mistake.
- [00:20:43.890]And it was, again, I was really passionate about the project
- [00:20:47.580]and that was the wrong project to bring
- [00:20:49.230]to that specific place at that specific time.
- [00:20:51.690]And again, think about what are they about,
- [00:20:55.740]the more information you can get.
- [00:20:57.150]And it's very uneven when you look at universities
- [00:21:00.390]and what's on there, because your main resource
- [00:21:03.600]will be what's available on the web,
- [00:21:05.820]it's not the clearest thing sometimes.
- [00:21:08.160]Some institutions are very good at talking
- [00:21:10.170]about what are their principles, what is their action?
- [00:21:12.960]And you go to some places and you're like,
- [00:21:14.850]I'm reading a lot of materials,
- [00:21:16.260]but it seems like it's from six years ago.
- [00:21:19.436]And so, is this what they're still doing?
- [00:21:22.178]They all the CVs, they're updated online.
- [00:21:24.000]I seem to have stopped in 2017, so which happens, right?
- [00:21:29.790]Because somebody's gotta take care of things.
- [00:21:32.490]And people don't always put an emphasis on that.
- [00:21:35.130]So those are the things that you have to pay attention to.
- [00:21:38.460]So make sure that you have current information.
- [00:21:40.710]If you have networks, lean on your networks.
- [00:21:43.500]The other strategy, I think is when you go to conferences,
- [00:21:47.220]if there are places you've applied to,
- [00:21:52.860]go, if they have a reception, go to the reception.
- [00:21:57.030]If they have, not everybody does, but some do,
- [00:21:59.910]if there's somebody presenting from that university,
- [00:22:02.670]you might want to go to their session.
- [00:22:05.310]And if you feel confident enough, you might want
- [00:22:08.280]to just at the end of the talk, chat a little bit,
- [00:22:12.510]say that you've applied
- [00:22:13.830]and just don't be too aggressively seeking information,
- [00:22:18.150]but try to get a sense of what's going on.
- [00:22:20.490]And they may be really open to, let's go have a coffee.
- [00:22:23.880]It happened to me a few times, I've done it a few times.
- [00:22:26.490]Let's go get a cup of coffee and just chat.
- [00:22:29.370]It's an opportunity to get a totally different interaction
- [00:22:31.980]and maybe get that one person who will advocate for you.
- [00:22:35.010]Right, and the other thing to pay attention to is also,
- [00:22:40.440]so there's the content, right?
- [00:22:42.390]There's the things that you're talking
- [00:22:43.500]about within that Zoom interview,
- [00:22:45.300]but also conveying who you are as a person, right?
- [00:22:49.230]And that notion of impression management,
- [00:22:51.780]how are you coming across within that Zoom interview, right?
- [00:22:56.880]And that is really hard.
- [00:22:59.910]If you don't have a good sense, how do you get there?
- [00:23:03.323]I mean, I think there's a couple
- [00:23:04.800]of different ways that you can do it.
- [00:23:07.740]So I did, when I was making the move
- [00:23:12.540]and ultimately ended up here,
- [00:23:14.550]which I didn't have a Zoom interview here, which was, whew,
- [00:23:19.440]that was a, ss, I find that I rely on some data
- [00:23:26.130]from that Zoom interview
- [00:23:27.090]that I didn't have coming into this.
- [00:23:30.180]But I record myself,
- [00:23:35.490]I go through some mock Zoom interviews, I record myself.
- [00:23:40.050]I send that out to trusted friends, trusted colleagues,
- [00:23:43.890]like talk through what you are seeing here,
- [00:23:47.940]like who is this person and would you hire them, right?
- [00:23:53.280]Like, that's what I want from them at that point in time.
- [00:24:00.480]And you know, I've gotten
- [00:24:02.190]some really good feedback around that.
- [00:24:04.560]Like I think to some committees,
- [00:24:07.320]the look, my timer's gonna go off.
- [00:24:12.240]Yeah. And that's
- [00:24:15.030]because I'm trying to value your time,
- [00:24:17.310]like I get what this is like.
- [00:24:19.980]Finessing the way that I spoke about that was helpful
- [00:24:26.010]and important because I want to convey that as a colleague,
- [00:24:30.000]I'm not gonna waste your time.
- [00:24:31.440]I'm gonna be cognizant and aware of the fact
- [00:24:33.720]that there's 24 hours in a day, 168 hours in a week,
- [00:24:36.960]I'm gonna make sure that the time that I spend with you
- [00:24:39.360]is as productive, as functional
- [00:24:42.270]as possible given what we need
- [00:24:43.800]to get done at that point in time.
- [00:24:45.450]And also because if they have seven questions
- [00:24:48.240]and they let me talk too long,
- [00:24:51.450]then I'm not gonna answer three questions,
- [00:24:54.540]because they may be on a time,
- [00:24:55.680]they may have an interview right after.
- [00:24:58.050]They may not be able to go over.
- [00:24:59.700]And that's normally how that works.
- [00:25:01.050]Yeah, most of the time they will keep it
- [00:25:03.090]to whatever the said time is.
- [00:25:05.370]So if you go over, suddenly you are out of time
- [00:25:08.220]to answer the other questions
- [00:25:09.600]or you don't get to ask your question.
- [00:25:11.880]So one is to get that feedback, also listen to yourself
- [00:25:16.170]and listen to tone, and body language, because it is Zoom.
- [00:25:20.520]Right, right, body and oftentimes you can ask
- [00:25:23.910]to have your camera off.
- [00:25:25.230]Like that's a thing that does happen.
- [00:25:27.510]And typically, like when you look at the DEI research
- [00:25:31.800]around interviewing, there's not a substantial shift
- [00:25:36.360]in how that gets interpreted, right?
- [00:25:40.860]But there is always the like, ugh, the risk of,
- [00:25:44.280]you know, I'm in an airport, right?
- [00:25:47.340]Going from one interview to the next
- [00:25:49.320]and I have a phone interview in the middle, like,
- [00:25:51.330]I'm gonna leave my Zoom off and I'm gonna mute.
- [00:25:54.960]And I have found that they technically,
- [00:25:58.230]they are fairly okay with that.
- [00:26:01.560]But I always have, if I can have a visual, I have a visual.
- [00:26:06.240]And if you do, make sure you've got good lighting,
- [00:26:08.880]then here is good with lighting,
- [00:26:10.620]and I've learned a lot, but you've gotta
- [00:26:12.060]have lighting facing you.
- [00:26:13.620]You don't want to be in the dark.
- [00:26:15.060]That is the dark or weird shadows and all of that.
- [00:26:18.210]It's really distracting for the committee.
- [00:26:20.185]It's not problematic from other perspective.
- [00:26:22.740]It is really distracting for people watching you.
- [00:26:25.490]So if you do have your camera on,
- [00:26:26.490]make sure you have decent lighting.
- [00:26:27.870]It's not complicated.
- [00:26:29.760]You just need to make sure
- [00:26:30.750]that there's front facing lighting.
- [00:26:33.030]Check yourself on your Zoom, you can activate Zoom
- [00:26:35.250]and see what you look like, and that's all you need.
- [00:26:38.820]The other thing is from a dressing perspective,
- [00:26:45.330]dress as if it's an interview.
- [00:26:47.820]Yeah, so do sweatshirts with hoodie.
- [00:26:49.414]Not a neck, sweatshirts with hoodie, not the best choice.
- [00:26:54.660]Hire me. (laughs) Wait,
- [00:26:57.570]you gotta put that, yes.
- [00:26:59.190]And so, I mean, it is about the message you want to send,
- [00:27:02.160]but especially for early jobs,
- [00:27:06.810]saying to the people on the other side,
- [00:27:10.110]I'm taking this seriously, it's critically important.
- [00:27:12.330]And that's preparation, that's time.
- [00:27:14.010]By the way, if you have notes to the side,
- [00:27:16.230]if you're taking time, any of these things,
- [00:27:18.930]it's really important to say that to the committee early on
- [00:27:22.350]as you said, because you want them to know
- [00:27:26.880]that if your eyes are going sideways,
- [00:27:28.380]because they will see that you're looking at something else
- [00:27:30.600]or that you're fiddling with something,
- [00:27:32.400]telling them that this is what you're doing
- [00:27:34.920]and you're not trying to answer your mom
- [00:27:36.540]or your email right now is important
- [00:27:40.680]because they might make assumptions
- [00:27:42.420]about why you're suddenly looking to the side.
- [00:27:45.000]And so saying, I have my notes here,
- [00:27:47.280]and so if I'm looking to the side, especially
- [00:27:49.350]if you see that when you watch your own video,
- [00:27:51.810]you see that you're looking to the side to answer,
- [00:27:54.030]this is an opportunity
- [00:27:55.200]to just communicate this is what's happening.
- [00:27:57.660]And so kind of pro tip around that,
- [00:28:00.060]when you're on your Zoom interview,
- [00:28:01.530]be sure you're looking at your camera,
- [00:28:03.180]not looking at your Zoom video.
- [00:28:05.460]That's what's going to establish that eye contact bit.
- [00:28:08.370]It's not when you're looking at them on the Zoom itself,
- [00:28:13.110]you can do that when they're talking.
- [00:28:14.490]But when you're addressing, be sure to try
- [00:28:16.380]to get looking at that camera, which is tricky to do.
- [00:28:23.430]Also, just being aware of there are certain things
- [00:28:28.410]that I have resting crank voice,
- [00:28:31.470]like I just sound like an asshole, you know?
- [00:28:39.360]I guess we're not gonna say this one is clean (laughs).
- [00:28:45.870]I mean, there are ways that we can go both,
- [00:28:47.921](laughs) but like. Very good.
- [00:28:49.440]But being aware of the fact that like,
- [00:28:51.810]there are certain ways
- [00:28:52.950]that you can come off to other people.
- [00:28:58.380]And that's where that review becomes helpful, right?
- [00:29:03.480]Like so when I give a warning of, look,
- [00:29:06.240]I've got a timer set, that's not me being a jerk,
- [00:29:08.760]that's me trying to be aware of our time
- [00:29:11.130]and thinking through where within that practice session
- [00:29:15.240]I sound like a jerk and revising that.
- [00:29:20.910]And sometimes it's just a change of phrase or what have you.
- [00:29:27.960]But being aware of that and if that is something that,
- [00:29:30.960]you know, happens, just something
- [00:29:35.280]that you can think through.
- [00:29:37.500]But definitely getting some practice sessions in,
- [00:29:40.920]some feedback, who do you trust
- [00:29:43.890]to give some feedback on that?
- [00:29:45.300]And then what are some techniques that you can use
- [00:29:48.240]to make yourself feel better when you're in that space?
- [00:29:55.860]So let's talk now a little bit
- [00:29:57.780]about Zoom interview padding,
- [00:30:02.790]which is a thing. Okay.
- [00:30:05.700]Unfortunately. Tell me more.
- [00:30:07.290]So, okay, so I can give you a really concrete example.
- [00:30:12.270]So as someone
- [00:30:14.040]with experiencing early childhood literacy instruction
- [00:30:18.660]who is male and gay,
- [00:30:23.370]that's not a combination that you get a lot
- [00:30:25.350]within that particular realm, right?
- [00:30:28.200]And so, what sometimes happens
- [00:30:32.310]is when you're thinking about the interview process
- [00:30:36.900]from an institutional standpoint, the list
- [00:30:40.380]that gets invited for Zoom interviews,
- [00:30:43.320]the list that gets invited for campus interviews goes
- [00:30:46.140]through several different processes
- [00:30:50.010]around particularly DEI,
- [00:30:53.820]making sure that you've cast a wide enough net.
- [00:30:56.790]Have you done your due diligence as a committee to?
- [00:31:03.900]Reach out. Reach out,
- [00:31:05.550]and get as diverse of an applicant pool,
- [00:31:07.710]diverse, but still capable applicant pool as possible?
- [00:31:12.420]And so, sometimes there can be this,
- [00:31:19.500]if you are kind of an anomaly
- [00:31:23.730]or if you fit within some of these groups,
- [00:31:27.660]sometimes there is the worry of some implicit bias,
- [00:31:31.200]the padding of the list where there's,
- [00:31:36.120]the committee has someone that they want to hire,
- [00:31:38.610]but then you have to make it look like.
- [00:31:41.760]A full search, yeah. A full search, right?
- [00:31:43.830]And again, remember that a lot of these things
- [00:31:46.050]aren't about you, right?
- [00:31:48.480]Like this is just something that happens.
- [00:31:52.260]And so when you're thinking about this,
- [00:31:56.100]there's a couple of things that I have found
- [00:31:59.970]to kind of flip that script, where I definitely feel like
- [00:32:07.364]as you move on in your career,
- [00:32:11.400]it just becomes kind of known in the community
- [00:32:14.040]who gets invited to Zoom for which jobs, right?
- [00:32:17.490]And so, there have been times where I've been like,
- [00:32:20.910]I don't belong on this list,
- [00:32:22.380]why am I on this list, what is going on?
- [00:32:24.960]I applied, but looking at who else they brought in
- [00:32:28.230]or are bringing in, that just doesn't make sense.
- [00:32:30.390]And so there is this background of oh,
- [00:32:34.680]they're padding their list, that's interesting to me.
- [00:32:37.860]And so when that happens, and it's because of the identities
- [00:32:48.480]that you inhabit rather than the competencies
- [00:32:51.210]that you possess, what I like to do is, one,
- [00:32:54.720]I try to make those really killer Zoom interviews.
- [00:32:57.780]Like I wanna knock those out of the park.
- [00:32:59.880]Yeah. Because one,
- [00:33:01.200]how dare you waste my time?
- [00:33:05.610]And when you waste my time, nope.
- [00:33:10.980]I have not been in that position, so.
- [00:33:14.040]And so. I appreciate
- [00:33:15.480]what you're saying, yes, it is.
- [00:33:16.890]It's going to be like the best darn,
- [00:33:19.350]I'm gonna be most prepared for that
- [00:33:20.970]because I want them to have to really grapple with,
- [00:33:25.350]I want it to be difficult to knock me out, right?
- [00:33:28.860]Yeah, and it is an opportunity.
- [00:33:30.690]And it is an opportunity, right?
- [00:33:32.190]Like if that's (laughs),
- [00:33:36.690]it's kind of my Cowboy Carter moment, right?
- [00:33:39.900]Like (laughs) I'm going
- [00:33:43.500]to put out an exemplary Zoom interview for that
- [00:33:48.360]because it's going to give me practice for a position
- [00:33:50.580]that I am actually up for
- [00:33:53.580]and being considered genuinely for.
- [00:33:58.320]And so, one of the biggest things there is,
- [00:34:01.910]is I feel like even if you have this notion
- [00:34:05.310]that you are there because you're a padding candidate,
- [00:34:10.950]still have that confidence, still like go into it going.
- [00:34:15.000]In some ways you have nothing to lose.
- [00:34:16.560]Right, like. If you feel
- [00:34:18.150]like that's the situation, it's like, I have nothing to lose
- [00:34:21.060]so I might as well take my best shot
- [00:34:24.090]and take a little bit of a risk even.
- [00:34:25.890]Exactly, like, you know, and bringing in,
- [00:34:31.584]if you have a feeling that that is really what's happening,
- [00:34:36.810]directly address that.
- [00:34:38.190]Like be very, very clear about those identities
- [00:34:43.470]that you occupy, as well as how they intersect
- [00:34:48.030]with the competencies that you have.
- [00:34:50.670]Because really think about the Zoom interview as a space
- [00:34:53.970]where you are building evidence for particular claims
- [00:34:57.780]about why you're the best person for this job.
- [00:35:00.060]And if they've not truly considered you,
- [00:35:05.100]give them reasons to pause
- [00:35:07.620]and actually consider you within that.
- [00:35:10.890]But also, eh, you could not care.
- [00:35:14.640]Yeah, I mean, that's fair.
- [00:35:15.896]You know, that's also an option.
- [00:35:17.940]I did wanna talk about,
- [00:35:20.018]there's one thing we didn't talk about in the interview,
- [00:35:23.670]you have to be honest, especially if you're feeling
- [00:35:25.980]that you're like, why am I part of this group?
- [00:35:30.030]And that is, there might be a question
- [00:35:31.920]that has to do with qualifications.
- [00:35:34.500]And that is sometimes there's something fuzzy
- [00:35:37.680]about one of your qualifications,
- [00:35:39.450]especially the absolutely the ones that are required
- [00:35:44.400]or the ones that are preferred.
- [00:35:46.290]And one of the questions or more might be about those,
- [00:35:50.550]if your record is like, I'm not sure, for example,
- [00:35:53.730]in teacher education,
- [00:35:54.690]often you need experience teaching K12,
- [00:35:57.810]and you need a certain number of years, and it might be
- [00:36:00.930]that you've transitioned between three different jobs
- [00:36:04.200]and the dates, and it's like,
- [00:36:06.360]does she have three years experience or is it two?
- [00:36:10.110]It's unclear, I've seen a lot of resumes like that.
- [00:36:13.890]So first of all, if you can clarify that,
- [00:36:15.690]do that in the letter,
- [00:36:16.530]but they might be asking you about that
- [00:36:18.870]and you'd better have that answer ready, clear
- [00:36:22.890]and to the point, yes, I have taught three years,
- [00:36:25.530]I've taught first here, then here, then here.
- [00:36:27.480]And it comes to three years.
- [00:36:28.980]They might ask you that
- [00:36:29.970]because sometimes it's their opportunity,
- [00:36:31.710]because if there's a question about a required qualification
- [00:36:36.480]and it's not answered fully to the committee's satisfaction,
- [00:36:41.760]then you're out, I mean, that's an easy out.
- [00:36:44.220]So sometimes it's an opportunity to clarify.
- [00:36:46.481]If they're like, I think it is,
- [00:36:47.670]so we'll include them in the pool, but we need clarity,
- [00:36:50.460]it's your opportunity to clarify about that.
- [00:36:53.190]And that's something you need to attend to.
- [00:36:56.250]Right, and that's one of those things
- [00:36:57.210]where if you don't plan to have that time,
- [00:36:59.070]you can miss out on that clarification question
- [00:37:01.380]and then that's gonna knock you out.
- [00:37:03.240]Completely. Of the Zoom interview.
- [00:37:05.460]So the goal is to move through the Zoom interview
- [00:37:10.410]into the campus interview, right?
- [00:37:12.810]Keeping in mind that statistically it's tricky.
- [00:37:17.400]So really the goal is to continue to increase those odds.
- [00:37:22.950]And over the course of today's podcast, we've talked through
- [00:37:27.000]really thinking about how to increase those odds
- [00:37:29.760]by rethinking kind of where the Zoom interview falls
- [00:37:33.000]within this larger process, how to get better
- [00:37:39.450]at that Zoom interview, practice, practice, practice,
- [00:37:42.810]and then thinking through what happens
- [00:37:46.320]when you're a padding candidate, right?
- [00:37:51.690]And some different ways to approach that.
- [00:37:56.330]Yeah, so fingers crossed,
- [00:37:58.980]like it's kind of like "Hunger Games"
- [00:38:02.010]where like maybe odds be ever in your favor.
- [00:38:03.817]Please do not shoot anybody (laughs).
- [00:38:06.840]It's not quite "Hunger Games."
- [00:38:10.260]It's not. Let's not lie.
- [00:38:12.840]Well, it is in the fact that it is a zero sum game.
- [00:38:16.950]There's one job and only one of you is getting from the job.
- [00:38:19.666]Right, like that's. From that perspective, yes.
- [00:38:22.200]May the odds be ever in your favor,
- [00:38:23.760]but hopefully bringing in some of these practices
- [00:38:27.900]can help increase those odds.
- [00:38:30.660]So yeah, anything to add? No, I think that's it.
- [00:38:36.270]There's my practice, which is right after
- [00:38:39.570]or in a short period after,
- [00:38:42.060]try to think through what moves you made that were good,
- [00:38:46.170]where may you have faltered
- [00:38:48.480]just so you can improve the next Zoom interview.
- [00:38:50.550]It won't help for this one,
- [00:38:52.020]but the next Zoom interview might be better
- [00:38:54.690]if you think through where didn't my prep work?
- [00:39:00.090]And what is it one more thing I need to add
- [00:39:02.700]to how I prepare? Yeah, what was new,
- [00:39:06.570]what was different, where did I falter
- [00:39:08.850]and how could I make that better?
- [00:39:11.524](upbeat music) So yeah, so with that,
- [00:39:15.412]may the odds be ever in your favor.
- [00:39:16.980]This has been "Not that Kind of Doctor."
- [00:39:19.440]We'll see you in the next one.
- [00:39:21.271](upbeat music)
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