Not That Kind of Doctor - Getting Past the Zoom Interview

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04/25/2024 Added

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Getting Past the Zoom Interview - Ph.D. discussions with Nicholas Husbye and Guy Trainin. www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor and https://mediahub.unl.edu/channels/42980

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[00:00:00.425](upbeat music)
[00:00:10.320]How's your coffee? How's my coffee?
[00:00:12.900]Eh, fantastic, I love Duncan coffee.
[00:00:15.090]They're not paying us again.
[00:00:16.950]They're not, I'm very jealous,
[00:00:18.240]'cause notice I have water. What happened?
[00:00:21.780]I'm a braces boy now, oh, speaking of high school.
[00:00:28.950]And so now I have to be very efficient
[00:00:31.350]around when I drink and eat things.
[00:00:35.640]Oh, wow. Because you're only allowed
[00:00:38.040]to have them off for two hours a day.
[00:00:41.310]Oh, wow. Yeah, uh-huh.
[00:00:42.930]I have never had that experience, so.
[00:00:45.300]I mean, look, this is only day two, only day two.
[00:00:49.650]And I just have to remember I did this to myself
[00:00:53.430]and it's gonna be fine. Oh, it's gonna be great.
[00:00:56.340]Because you know, like at the end of the day,
[00:01:01.290]I'm trying to set myself up
[00:01:02.610]for like easy tooth care in old age.
[00:01:07.590]This is where I'm at. All right.
[00:01:09.030]So hence the water and the slight speech impediment.
[00:01:12.780]I think I have a little bit of a lisp now.
[00:01:16.230]Maybe. Potentially.
[00:01:18.150]Very little. Okay, great.
[00:01:19.920]That's good. Because we're sure.
[00:01:21.810]Well, yes, that, and I'm thinking
[00:01:23.370]about how am I going to teach articulation in the fall.
[00:01:26.811](laughs) That is true. So there's all these things
[00:01:29.910]that I haven't thought about,
[00:01:32.070]but you know what I have thought about?
[00:01:33.300]What? Jobs.
[00:01:36.043]Jobs. You know why?
[00:01:37.221]Always big jobs. Because that's our wreath.
[00:01:38.790]Yes, yes, it is, jobs, everybody's gotta get the job.
[00:01:43.500]We want people to have jobs. Yeah.
[00:01:45.240]So today on "Not that Kind of Doctor,"
[00:01:48.450]we are going to talk about Zoom interviews.
[00:01:51.960]And what happens when you can't seem
[00:01:54.930]to get past that Zoom interview.
[00:01:57.450]So I'm Nick Husbye, I'm an associate professor
[00:01:59.910]of Elementary Literacy Education here at UNL.
[00:02:03.060]I'm Guy Trainin, professor of education at UNL.
[00:02:05.640]And we're talking
[00:02:06.990]about why can't I get past the Zoom interview?
[00:02:09.607]Well, and I think before we dig into specifically
[00:02:13.800]that question, let's remind everyone
[00:02:16.380]what the function of a Zoom interview is, right?
[00:02:19.830]Because pre-COVID, pre-explosion
[00:02:25.500]of teleconference technology, Zoom, Skype,
[00:02:29.250]et cetera, et cetera, Teams,
[00:02:31.740]there used to be this phone interview as kind of the,
[00:02:36.171]it's kind of a large screener, let's say,
[00:02:42.750]when institutions would be doing job searches, right?
[00:02:46.830]How would you describe the function
[00:02:48.900]of that first screening interview?
[00:02:51.660]Like, what do candidates need to do
[00:02:55.590]in that interview?
[00:02:58.290]So I wanna take it back
[00:02:59.370]because I wanna talk about the phone interview
[00:03:01.819]'cause I think the phone interview was very different.
[00:03:03.570]That's one of the things
[00:03:04.560]that people have not realized changed.
[00:03:06.750]And this is why we're talking about this today.
[00:03:08.550]The phone interview was very different
[00:03:11.760]in most of my experiences, both conducting them
[00:03:14.010]and going through them.
[00:03:15.330]And that is, the phone interview used to be with two
[00:03:17.730]or three people most of the time.
[00:03:19.860]And they had very precise questions
[00:03:21.900]where they were clarifying things or asking a few questions.
[00:03:25.413]They were taking notes
[00:03:26.610]and then bringing it back to committee.
[00:03:28.440]It was rarely recorded and then shared.
[00:03:31.920]What's different is Zoom interview
[00:03:34.560]are often with more people,
[00:03:36.120]because from a time management perspective,
[00:03:38.070]people don't have to be in the same room.
[00:03:39.510]They can easily be in multiple places.
[00:03:41.520]That was always true of the phone,
[00:03:43.020]but somehow it never happened.
[00:03:46.080]So you've got potentially more people coming in.
[00:03:49.470]And the second thing is it is often recorded,
[00:03:52.140]and therefore you have to think, not just,
[00:03:55.230]this is the conversation I'm having with these two people,
[00:03:58.290]but, or three people or many ever.
[00:04:00.360]So if it's a big group, it's a big group.
[00:04:01.950]And that creates its own difficulty
[00:04:03.750]because you don't know exactly who you're talking to.
[00:04:06.180]And so you're talking to a wide audience.
[00:04:07.770]And in the same way, even if there are only two
[00:04:09.960]or three people, which we've done a, participated both
[00:04:13.500]as an applicant and as a person
[00:04:18.480]who's doing the interviewing considerably more often,
[00:04:20.970]and that is, you are recording it
[00:04:23.040]and others may very well be watching it.
[00:04:25.410]So you're talking to the people in front of you
[00:04:26.970]and you're trying to connect with them,
[00:04:28.050]but at the same time, you're talking to a wider audience,
[00:04:30.540]which is very different than, for example,
[00:04:32.070]when I got the job here, I got a phone call,
[00:04:34.470]they had a few questions, it was a long time ago,
[00:04:37.530]but it was between me and two people on the phone.
[00:04:40.860]And that was it.
[00:04:42.630]They just had a small report to bring back to the committee.
[00:04:46.290]And that's a very different, I think, way
[00:04:48.270]to present yourself at that moment.
[00:04:49.800]Because for me at least, it's very easy
[00:04:52.260]to create a connection with the person I'm talking to,
[00:04:54.330]even on the phone, definitely on Zoom.
[00:04:56.310]But the minute it becomes wider
[00:04:57.690]or you're speaking to people who aren't there,
[00:04:59.580]you don't want them to feel
[00:05:00.690]like they're out of the conversation
[00:05:02.880]because you're talking to this person.
[00:05:04.260]So for me, that is part of the challenge
[00:05:08.790]in thinking about what is the difference.
[00:05:11.760]But what I love, and I did want to pull that to one thing,
[00:05:15.360]what the Zoom interviews have helped, I think,
[00:05:17.790]is to expand the pool and to give people a better chance
[00:05:21.240]to make it to the final three.
[00:05:24.030]So people who maybe would not have gotten a chance
[00:05:27.150]now are getting a chance
[00:05:29.220]because we can easily widen the pool.
[00:05:32.550]And for example, in the recent search we had
[00:05:35.490]for our technology position,
[00:05:37.920]educational technology position, I think we had nine
[00:05:42.000]or maybe even more than nine Zoom interviews.
[00:05:44.790]About that. Yeah.
[00:05:45.990]So usually even if we called and did the screener,
[00:05:49.860]it was usually on five or six,
[00:05:51.810]and now suddenly we can look at nine,
[00:05:54.240]which means you've got a better chance
[00:05:56.280]to get to that first phase,
[00:05:58.470]but that doesn't mean you go beyond.
[00:06:00.750]But in an effort to diversify, that's a great opportunity
[00:06:04.530]for people who might look a little bit different
[00:06:06.780]than others and things like that.
[00:06:08.820]Right, and so one of the biggest challenges
[00:06:11.430]of that preliminary interview, like you said,
[00:06:15.240]was how do you both build relationships
[00:06:18.450]within that particular space?
[00:06:20.580]Like you need to create, you know, kind of these,
[00:06:25.050]you want someone in that interview to be rooting for you.
[00:06:28.740]Right, so like how do you create that relationship
[00:06:33.090]but also convey for the folks who might be listening to it
[00:06:37.230]or watching it on the replay, a demonstration
[00:06:40.470]of why you for that particular position, right?
[00:06:44.610]So you have to kind of balance those things out.
[00:06:49.530]And I think one of the biggest things
[00:06:54.450]that you can do within a Zoom is have a plan.
[00:06:59.490]Mm-hmm, absolutely, you must have a plan.
[00:07:01.560]You've gotta have a plan, right?
[00:07:03.543]Like there is some level
[00:07:07.290]of specificity that's required in that Zoom interview,
[00:07:11.670]because they're maybe 15 minutes long,
[00:07:16.620]20 minutes long if you're lucky.
[00:07:19.500]And so if you don't have a plan going into that
[00:07:25.020]to describe kind of what it
[00:07:27.630]is that you can bring to that position,
[00:07:30.780]and how you're thinking about that position
[00:07:32.460]and how you're aligning yourself
[00:07:34.203]with the work already being done within that department
[00:07:37.500]and that institution, you're kind of wasting an opportunity
[00:07:42.480]to match those things up.
[00:07:44.160]And the preparation is important,
[00:07:45.930]even if you're really confident
[00:07:48.030]about your ability to talk through anything,
[00:07:50.640]because maybe you can, but you will not have the time.
[00:07:53.820]So I'll give an example, a 30 minute interview,
[00:07:59.910]and the people who are interviewing, usually us, are saying,
[00:08:05.317]"We have seven questions."
[00:08:06.660]Now think about this, seven questions,
[00:08:09.420]and there's at the end a question that you can ask us
[00:08:12.300]on a 30 minute interview, which is quite long,
[00:08:15.180]there's an opportunity there.
[00:08:16.620]But that means that the average answer is four minutes.
[00:08:19.380]That means that you don't have time to talk yourself
[00:08:22.860]and think while you're talking about this question.
[00:08:25.500]If you don't have a reasonable answer ready
[00:08:28.080]for most of these questions,
[00:08:30.030]you are going to stretch the time
[00:08:31.710]and actually miss the mark.
[00:08:33.270]Or they'll have to cut you off
[00:08:34.440]and move to the next questions
[00:08:36.150]while you have not answered it
[00:08:38.070]because you didn't get to that point.
[00:08:40.020]So you've got to be ready for the specificity
[00:08:43.530]and you gotta write yourself some kind of,
[00:08:45.600]what are my top three points for those questions?
[00:08:48.300]And you can get, right, what they're looking for,
[00:08:51.600]because that's why they write the ad.
[00:08:53.580]Right, right, so you can do some digging into the ad.
[00:08:56.910]What's been done there.
[00:08:57.990]Leverage your network, see what's happening
[00:08:59.880]at that particular institution.
[00:09:02.160]And I like to,
[00:09:06.180]when I get an invite to go to this preliminary interview,
[00:09:10.597]"Hey, can you tell me who's gonna be there?
[00:09:12.600]Can you tell me how many questions
[00:09:13.890]and how much time is allotted?"
[00:09:16.401]And then what that does is, again,
[00:09:19.830]I always think it's n plus one
[00:09:21.390]'cause it's the number of questions that they're gonna ask,
[00:09:23.430]plus, do you have any questions for us?
[00:09:26.250]And I divide the amount of time by the questions
[00:09:31.080]and plan that out. Yes.
[00:09:31.920]And so while I'm on this interview.
[00:09:34.779]And I have the timer on, actually.
[00:09:36.300]Wow, I'm so proud of you, because I do too.
[00:09:39.120]I have my stopwatch. Yeah.
[00:09:40.560]I gotta know where I am. Great.
[00:09:42.990]Otherwise it's not gonna work out.
[00:09:44.880]And I warn the committee as I talk,
[00:09:49.140]like this is what I've done,
[00:09:51.360]this is how I'm approaching this.
[00:09:52.890]I want to make sure that I am both, you know,
[00:09:55.620]I've been in your position.
[00:09:59.790]I want you to know that I value your time.
[00:10:03.690]And so this is what I'm doing.
[00:10:06.810]I always have kind of a cheat sheet next to me.
[00:10:08.730]Like, here's the big points,
[00:10:10.230]here's the stuff that I highlighted in my cover letter.
[00:10:12.390]Here's some additional information that they might not have.
[00:10:15.090]And then as they ask questions,
[00:10:17.190]if they haven't given me the questions,
[00:10:19.560]and that's a new thing as well,
[00:10:21.240]sometimes they'll just send you the questions
[00:10:23.370]that they're gonna ask within that Zoom interview.
[00:10:25.950]And I would not resist the urge
[00:10:29.940]to write out your response to those questions
[00:10:32.340]and read them aloud like,
[00:10:33.240]that hasn't read well, that hasn't gone well.
[00:10:34.875]No, that sounds mechanical, inauthentic.
[00:10:38.315]But definitely like highlight stuff.
[00:10:40.170]And if they haven't given you the questions, I always like
[00:10:42.210]to write the question down, give myself about 30 ish,
[00:10:45.930]15 ish seconds to think about it,
[00:10:48.240]jot my three bullet points, and then I go.
[00:10:50.820]And that helps keep me on task with that.
[00:10:53.220]And another request you can make, there are a few things,
[00:10:57.360]I think I've talked about them before
[00:10:58.890]when we talked about this,
[00:10:59.880]but I think it's important to remind, one thing is, again,
[00:11:03.330]fairly new is because these are Zoom interviews I've seen,
[00:11:07.290]and we have done this, people,
[00:11:09.090]if they didn't send you the questions in advance,
[00:11:11.580]which is great, but if they didn't,
[00:11:13.620]they can cut and paste them into the chat.
[00:11:17.370]So while you're talking, you can, if you have that moment
[00:11:21.240]where you're like, what was I talking about,
[00:11:23.700]not a good moment, but it can happen
[00:11:25.440]because you start walking down the line
[00:11:27.510]and you got lost a little bit,
[00:11:29.400]that question is there.
[00:11:30.840]You can look at it and say, did I answer it
[00:11:33.930]before I say, okay, I'm done, we're moving on.
[00:11:37.290]That is one way.
[00:11:38.820]And the second thing is, especially
[00:11:42.120]if you are having a challenge with the language
[00:11:44.340]or you're not feeling 100% confident,
[00:11:46.380]or you have a difficulty hearing, I have both,
[00:11:52.590]English is not my first language
[00:11:53.940]and I have difficulty hearing,
[00:11:55.410]you can ask to activate the closed captions.
[00:11:58.350]They're not perfect,
[00:11:59.610]but they help kind of anchor what is happening,
[00:12:06.510]especially if the questions are longer and complex.
[00:12:09.090]If the questions are short and you have them in advance,
[00:12:11.130]it matters a lot less.
[00:12:13.440]But if there are follow up questions
[00:12:15.870]and things like that, it does help.
[00:12:18.510]And that's something that may be worth considering,
[00:12:22.050]again, if this is a challenge.
[00:12:24.840]And you can ask for it in advance,
[00:12:26.940]and I've never had anybody say, "Well,
[00:12:30.600]we don't want to do that," so.
[00:12:32.460]Yeah, no, and to that asking in advance,
[00:12:35.010]if they don't offer that up in the beginning,
[00:12:37.260]if they don't front load with that,
[00:12:38.880]definitely submit that request.
[00:12:40.710]Like they are interviewing you
[00:12:43.260]because they're interested in you.
[00:12:45.630]And they want to do everything in their power.
[00:12:49.350]To accommodate. To get more information
[00:12:52.350]about who you are, what's going on.
[00:12:57.660]And so, I feel like that brings us
[00:13:00.030]to our second kind of space, which is this notion
[00:13:03.930]of why don't folks tend to move on from Zoom interviews?
[00:13:08.520]And I mean, one of the largest questions is math.
[00:13:16.470]Like it's just. Yes, yes.
[00:13:17.940]Math. Yeah.
[00:13:20.610]You know, when you've got, you know,
[00:13:25.274]200 applicants for a single position, for one position,
[00:13:30.000]and you've whittled that down to nine,
[00:13:32.760]and then you move that into three
[00:13:34.590]and ultimately to one,
[00:13:36.930]that's a huge statistical hurdle to overcome, right?
[00:13:42.330]But keeping that in mind, there's some things
[00:13:45.600]that you can do to kind of play that game.
[00:13:50.010]Yeah, and improve your odds. And improve your odds.
[00:13:51.557]But it's still odds, and part of the odds
[00:13:54.450]that you can't see is who are the other candidates?
[00:13:58.680]Because people apply for all sorts of reasons.
[00:14:03.000]And if you are just exiting graduate school
[00:14:07.020]and you are a new minted doctor, "Not that Kind of Doctor,"
[00:14:13.571]and suddenly in that pool, there might be a few people
[00:14:18.750]who are two, three years in in a different institution
[00:14:23.070]and they're looking to move,
[00:14:24.450]their profile is gonna look very different than yours.
[00:14:27.750]That's not necessarily an up or down,
[00:14:29.370]but they're going to look different.
[00:14:31.320]So if the search committee is excited about experience
[00:14:39.030]and about having a leg up because they need, for example,
[00:14:41.370]somebody who can lead a little bit more and is more secure
[00:14:43.830]than somebody who's just starting a position,
[00:14:47.430]they might prefer that, and that will be totally invisible.
[00:14:50.100]So sometimes you don't get passed because of the math
[00:14:52.950]and because you don't see who the other candidates are.
[00:14:55.770]Right, so again,
[00:14:58.350]oftentimes it's rarely about anything that any one person,
[00:15:03.420]it's really not about you, it's about the system
[00:15:06.720]and how academia is set up.
[00:15:09.150]But there are, again, some things that you can do
[00:15:12.150]in order to improve your odds, right?
[00:15:14.910]And I think the first is, we've talked about this
[00:15:18.690]in our last segment, but like, the lack
[00:15:23.430]of a focused presence in that Zoom interview
[00:15:27.900]is not going to do you any good.
[00:15:32.130]And I think that there is this kind of perception
[00:15:36.870]that, oh, I'm just gonna talk off the cuff
[00:15:40.140]and they're gonna really resonate with my passion
[00:15:42.960]and it's going to go really, really well.
[00:15:45.750]But as someone who's been on the interviewer end of that,
[00:15:53.010]it feels disjointed, it feels scattered, it feels like,
[00:15:58.830]I'm not quite sure what you're going to bring
[00:16:03.360]to the table if we invite you for a campus interview.
[00:16:06.810]Yeah. If there's a lack of focus
[00:16:08.910]and a lack of a lack of research, like again,
[00:16:13.920]know who's on that committee,
[00:16:15.420]know who's going to be on that phone call.
[00:16:18.000]Yeah. And do just a little bit
[00:16:20.520]of Googling, because that's gonna help you.
[00:16:25.710]And going back to know something about the department,
[00:16:28.710]especially in the cases that they're recording it,
[00:16:31.950]and then a much wider committee.
[00:16:33.570]So know the whole committee, not just the people there.
[00:16:35.700]The people there are important, but again,
[00:16:37.590]you're talking to a wider audience at that point
[00:16:39.540]because it's often recorded.
[00:16:41.040]So think about how do I prepare for that, stay focused,
[00:16:44.760]know a lot about the institution and resist the urge
[00:16:52.860]to say something like, "Well, I do need a job,"
[00:16:57.000]which is very true, right, very true.
[00:17:00.840]You do need the job most likely,
[00:17:02.730]or you wouldn't be applying.
[00:17:03.934]I would like health insurance, please.
[00:17:04.767]And it is, yes, and you may have a family
[00:17:07.050]or you may have other issues,
[00:17:09.120]but that cannot be the reason you applied.
[00:17:12.210]That is not what you tell the committee.
[00:17:15.480]And also, they know that's why you are applying.
[00:17:19.590]They don't think you're applying because you have a fortune
[00:17:22.740]and you're just playing in your spare time.
[00:17:24.720]They know that you need this job and that you're interested,
[00:17:28.440]but they want to understand why you are a good fit
[00:17:31.770]for that place at this time.
[00:17:35.040]And to that notion of fit, like another thing
[00:17:36.870]that you want to pay attention to
[00:17:38.490]is paying attention to the job description.
[00:17:43.230]Yeah. And being sure
[00:17:44.220]that you're aligning your talk
[00:17:45.720]with what that job description is.
[00:17:47.700]And if you're not, I mean,
[00:17:51.240]I see this in literacy education all the time,
[00:17:54.990]reading education all the time where part
[00:17:59.130]of what the institution is looking for is someone
[00:18:02.790]to teach foundational reading skills.
[00:18:08.550]So ground your talk in foundational reading skills
[00:18:13.620]versus like a, oh, I'm looking at post human structures
[00:18:20.580]and literacy instruction.
[00:18:22.320]That's not foundational reading skills.
[00:18:24.510]Those are two very different things.
[00:18:26.280]One is teaching content, one is research, right?
[00:18:30.750]Can you do both of these things
[00:18:33.270]when you're talking about this, when you're talking about
[00:18:37.290]that teaching need right there
[00:18:40.200]and ensuring that all of that lines up, right?
[00:18:47.760]Part of what you're trying to do is infer the needs
[00:18:52.080]of the department based upon the job description
[00:18:54.540]and talking about how you match that up, right?
[00:19:00.570]Yeah. And so, what
[00:19:05.250]are the kind of like, given those kind of pitfalls,
[00:19:09.240]what are some of the ways that grad students
[00:19:11.820]and or early career academics can move outta those pitfalls?
[00:19:18.750]Like are there other structural things
[00:19:20.190]that you would recommend that they do?
[00:19:21.300]We've talked about a couple of strategies, but.
[00:19:23.490]Yeah, so it's always in the prep, prep.
[00:19:29.550]Have somebody think up,
[00:19:31.170]use the people in the department you're in
[00:19:36.210]to maybe send you questions from a similar position
[00:19:39.840]or from a different position,
[00:19:41.010]but you can kind of transpose that.
[00:19:42.780]And first of all, practice, practice being able
[00:19:44.850]to give short answers that are to the point,
[00:19:49.890]thinking about what are the two,
[00:19:51.300]three points I wanna make with that?
[00:19:54.210]And make sure, again, the third line.
[00:19:56.190]So look at what you're trying to say
[00:19:59.400]and think about who are they
[00:20:01.950]and is this what you need to say?
[00:20:03.480]I mean, one of my stories is about me realizing halfway
[00:20:08.400]through a presentation, this is already on a campus visit,
[00:20:10.890]but me realizing halfway through the presentation
[00:20:13.320]to the faculty, I can see their eyes,
[00:20:15.990]and then it dawns on me
[00:20:17.370]that I'm doing the wrong presentation,
[00:20:18.990]the wrong research presentation.
[00:20:21.030]And so, that is because I didn't think through,
[00:20:25.650]I was really excited about the topic I was doing.
[00:20:27.870]It was something I felt really comfortable presenting on.
[00:20:30.570]It was the wrong thing to do.
[00:20:33.377]And at that moment, it was clear to me,
[00:20:36.390]I mean, there were other reasons,
[00:20:37.620]but it was clear to me that this is not going to happen
[00:20:40.980]because I made the mistake and I made that mistake.
[00:20:43.890]And it was, again, I was really passionate about the project
[00:20:47.580]and that was the wrong project to bring
[00:20:49.230]to that specific place at that specific time.
[00:20:51.690]And again, think about what are they about,
[00:20:55.740]the more information you can get.
[00:20:57.150]And it's very uneven when you look at universities
[00:21:00.390]and what's on there, because your main resource
[00:21:03.600]will be what's available on the web,
[00:21:05.820]it's not the clearest thing sometimes.
[00:21:08.160]Some institutions are very good at talking
[00:21:10.170]about what are their principles, what is their action?
[00:21:12.960]And you go to some places and you're like,
[00:21:14.850]I'm reading a lot of materials,
[00:21:16.260]but it seems like it's from six years ago.
[00:21:19.436]And so, is this what they're still doing?
[00:21:22.178]They all the CVs, they're updated online.
[00:21:24.000]I seem to have stopped in 2017, so which happens, right?
[00:21:29.790]Because somebody's gotta take care of things.
[00:21:32.490]And people don't always put an emphasis on that.
[00:21:35.130]So those are the things that you have to pay attention to.
[00:21:38.460]So make sure that you have current information.
[00:21:40.710]If you have networks, lean on your networks.
[00:21:43.500]The other strategy, I think is when you go to conferences,
[00:21:47.220]if there are places you've applied to,
[00:21:52.860]go, if they have a reception, go to the reception.
[00:21:57.030]If they have, not everybody does, but some do,
[00:21:59.910]if there's somebody presenting from that university,
[00:22:02.670]you might want to go to their session.
[00:22:05.310]And if you feel confident enough, you might want
[00:22:08.280]to just at the end of the talk, chat a little bit,
[00:22:12.510]say that you've applied
[00:22:13.830]and just don't be too aggressively seeking information,
[00:22:18.150]but try to get a sense of what's going on.
[00:22:20.490]And they may be really open to, let's go have a coffee.
[00:22:23.880]It happened to me a few times, I've done it a few times.
[00:22:26.490]Let's go get a cup of coffee and just chat.
[00:22:29.370]It's an opportunity to get a totally different interaction
[00:22:31.980]and maybe get that one person who will advocate for you.
[00:22:35.010]Right, and the other thing to pay attention to is also,
[00:22:40.440]so there's the content, right?
[00:22:42.390]There's the things that you're talking
[00:22:43.500]about within that Zoom interview,
[00:22:45.300]but also conveying who you are as a person, right?
[00:22:49.230]And that notion of impression management,
[00:22:51.780]how are you coming across within that Zoom interview, right?
[00:22:56.880]And that is really hard.
[00:22:59.910]If you don't have a good sense, how do you get there?
[00:23:03.323]I mean, I think there's a couple
[00:23:04.800]of different ways that you can do it.
[00:23:07.740]So I did, when I was making the move
[00:23:12.540]and ultimately ended up here,
[00:23:14.550]which I didn't have a Zoom interview here, which was, whew,
[00:23:19.440]that was a, ss, I find that I rely on some data
[00:23:26.130]from that Zoom interview
[00:23:27.090]that I didn't have coming into this.
[00:23:30.180]But I record myself,
[00:23:35.490]I go through some mock Zoom interviews, I record myself.
[00:23:40.050]I send that out to trusted friends, trusted colleagues,
[00:23:43.890]like talk through what you are seeing here,
[00:23:47.940]like who is this person and would you hire them, right?
[00:23:53.280]Like, that's what I want from them at that point in time.
[00:24:00.480]And you know, I've gotten
[00:24:02.190]some really good feedback around that.
[00:24:04.560]Like I think to some committees,
[00:24:07.320]the look, my timer's gonna go off.
[00:24:12.240]Yeah. And that's
[00:24:15.030]because I'm trying to value your time,
[00:24:17.310]like I get what this is like.
[00:24:19.980]Finessing the way that I spoke about that was helpful
[00:24:26.010]and important because I want to convey that as a colleague,
[00:24:30.000]I'm not gonna waste your time.
[00:24:31.440]I'm gonna be cognizant and aware of the fact
[00:24:33.720]that there's 24 hours in a day, 168 hours in a week,
[00:24:36.960]I'm gonna make sure that the time that I spend with you
[00:24:39.360]is as productive, as functional
[00:24:42.270]as possible given what we need
[00:24:43.800]to get done at that point in time.
[00:24:45.450]And also because if they have seven questions
[00:24:48.240]and they let me talk too long,
[00:24:51.450]then I'm not gonna answer three questions,
[00:24:54.540]because they may be on a time,
[00:24:55.680]they may have an interview right after.
[00:24:58.050]They may not be able to go over.
[00:24:59.700]And that's normally how that works.
[00:25:01.050]Yeah, most of the time they will keep it
[00:25:03.090]to whatever the said time is.
[00:25:05.370]So if you go over, suddenly you are out of time
[00:25:08.220]to answer the other questions
[00:25:09.600]or you don't get to ask your question.
[00:25:11.880]So one is to get that feedback, also listen to yourself
[00:25:16.170]and listen to tone, and body language, because it is Zoom.
[00:25:20.520]Right, right, body and oftentimes you can ask
[00:25:23.910]to have your camera off.
[00:25:25.230]Like that's a thing that does happen.
[00:25:27.510]And typically, like when you look at the DEI research
[00:25:31.800]around interviewing, there's not a substantial shift
[00:25:36.360]in how that gets interpreted, right?
[00:25:40.860]But there is always the like, ugh, the risk of,
[00:25:44.280]you know, I'm in an airport, right?
[00:25:47.340]Going from one interview to the next
[00:25:49.320]and I have a phone interview in the middle, like,
[00:25:51.330]I'm gonna leave my Zoom off and I'm gonna mute.
[00:25:54.960]And I have found that they technically,
[00:25:58.230]they are fairly okay with that.
[00:26:01.560]But I always have, if I can have a visual, I have a visual.
[00:26:06.240]And if you do, make sure you've got good lighting,
[00:26:08.880]then here is good with lighting,
[00:26:10.620]and I've learned a lot, but you've gotta
[00:26:12.060]have lighting facing you.
[00:26:13.620]You don't want to be in the dark.
[00:26:15.060]That is the dark or weird shadows and all of that.
[00:26:18.210]It's really distracting for the committee.
[00:26:20.185]It's not problematic from other perspective.
[00:26:22.740]It is really distracting for people watching you.
[00:26:25.490]So if you do have your camera on,
[00:26:26.490]make sure you have decent lighting.
[00:26:27.870]It's not complicated.
[00:26:29.760]You just need to make sure
[00:26:30.750]that there's front facing lighting.
[00:26:33.030]Check yourself on your Zoom, you can activate Zoom
[00:26:35.250]and see what you look like, and that's all you need.
[00:26:38.820]The other thing is from a dressing perspective,
[00:26:45.330]dress as if it's an interview.
[00:26:47.820]Yeah, so do sweatshirts with hoodie.
[00:26:49.414]Not a neck, sweatshirts with hoodie, not the best choice.
[00:26:54.660]Hire me. (laughs) Wait,
[00:26:57.570]you gotta put that, yes.
[00:26:59.190]And so, I mean, it is about the message you want to send,
[00:27:02.160]but especially for early jobs,
[00:27:06.810]saying to the people on the other side,
[00:27:10.110]I'm taking this seriously, it's critically important.
[00:27:12.330]And that's preparation, that's time.
[00:27:14.010]By the way, if you have notes to the side,
[00:27:16.230]if you're taking time, any of these things,
[00:27:18.930]it's really important to say that to the committee early on
[00:27:22.350]as you said, because you want them to know
[00:27:26.880]that if your eyes are going sideways,
[00:27:28.380]because they will see that you're looking at something else
[00:27:30.600]or that you're fiddling with something,
[00:27:32.400]telling them that this is what you're doing
[00:27:34.920]and you're not trying to answer your mom
[00:27:36.540]or your email right now is important
[00:27:40.680]because they might make assumptions
[00:27:42.420]about why you're suddenly looking to the side.
[00:27:45.000]And so saying, I have my notes here,
[00:27:47.280]and so if I'm looking to the side, especially
[00:27:49.350]if you see that when you watch your own video,
[00:27:51.810]you see that you're looking to the side to answer,
[00:27:54.030]this is an opportunity
[00:27:55.200]to just communicate this is what's happening.
[00:27:57.660]And so kind of pro tip around that,
[00:28:00.060]when you're on your Zoom interview,
[00:28:01.530]be sure you're looking at your camera,
[00:28:03.180]not looking at your Zoom video.
[00:28:05.460]That's what's going to establish that eye contact bit.
[00:28:08.370]It's not when you're looking at them on the Zoom itself,
[00:28:13.110]you can do that when they're talking.
[00:28:14.490]But when you're addressing, be sure to try
[00:28:16.380]to get looking at that camera, which is tricky to do.
[00:28:23.430]Also, just being aware of there are certain things
[00:28:28.410]that I have resting crank voice,
[00:28:31.470]like I just sound like an asshole, you know?
[00:28:39.360]I guess we're not gonna say this one is clean (laughs).
[00:28:45.870]I mean, there are ways that we can go both,
[00:28:47.921](laughs) but like. Very good.
[00:28:49.440]But being aware of the fact that like,
[00:28:51.810]there are certain ways
[00:28:52.950]that you can come off to other people.
[00:28:58.380]And that's where that review becomes helpful, right?
[00:29:03.480]Like so when I give a warning of, look,
[00:29:06.240]I've got a timer set, that's not me being a jerk,
[00:29:08.760]that's me trying to be aware of our time
[00:29:11.130]and thinking through where within that practice session
[00:29:15.240]I sound like a jerk and revising that.
[00:29:20.910]And sometimes it's just a change of phrase or what have you.
[00:29:27.960]But being aware of that and if that is something that,
[00:29:30.960]you know, happens, just something
[00:29:35.280]that you can think through.
[00:29:37.500]But definitely getting some practice sessions in,
[00:29:40.920]some feedback, who do you trust
[00:29:43.890]to give some feedback on that?
[00:29:45.300]And then what are some techniques that you can use
[00:29:48.240]to make yourself feel better when you're in that space?
[00:29:55.860]So let's talk now a little bit
[00:29:57.780]about Zoom interview padding,
[00:30:02.790]which is a thing. Okay.
[00:30:05.700]Unfortunately. Tell me more.
[00:30:07.290]So, okay, so I can give you a really concrete example.
[00:30:12.270]So as someone
[00:30:14.040]with experiencing early childhood literacy instruction
[00:30:18.660]who is male and gay,
[00:30:23.370]that's not a combination that you get a lot
[00:30:25.350]within that particular realm, right?
[00:30:28.200]And so, what sometimes happens
[00:30:32.310]is when you're thinking about the interview process
[00:30:36.900]from an institutional standpoint, the list
[00:30:40.380]that gets invited for Zoom interviews,
[00:30:43.320]the list that gets invited for campus interviews goes
[00:30:46.140]through several different processes
[00:30:50.010]around particularly DEI,
[00:30:53.820]making sure that you've cast a wide enough net.
[00:30:56.790]Have you done your due diligence as a committee to?
[00:31:03.900]Reach out. Reach out,
[00:31:05.550]and get as diverse of an applicant pool,
[00:31:07.710]diverse, but still capable applicant pool as possible?
[00:31:12.420]And so, sometimes there can be this,
[00:31:19.500]if you are kind of an anomaly
[00:31:23.730]or if you fit within some of these groups,
[00:31:27.660]sometimes there is the worry of some implicit bias,
[00:31:31.200]the padding of the list where there's,
[00:31:36.120]the committee has someone that they want to hire,
[00:31:38.610]but then you have to make it look like.
[00:31:41.760]A full search, yeah. A full search, right?
[00:31:43.830]And again, remember that a lot of these things
[00:31:46.050]aren't about you, right?
[00:31:48.480]Like this is just something that happens.
[00:31:52.260]And so when you're thinking about this,
[00:31:56.100]there's a couple of things that I have found
[00:31:59.970]to kind of flip that script, where I definitely feel like
[00:32:07.364]as you move on in your career,
[00:32:11.400]it just becomes kind of known in the community
[00:32:14.040]who gets invited to Zoom for which jobs, right?
[00:32:17.490]And so, there have been times where I've been like,
[00:32:20.910]I don't belong on this list,
[00:32:22.380]why am I on this list, what is going on?
[00:32:24.960]I applied, but looking at who else they brought in
[00:32:28.230]or are bringing in, that just doesn't make sense.
[00:32:30.390]And so there is this background of oh,
[00:32:34.680]they're padding their list, that's interesting to me.
[00:32:37.860]And so when that happens, and it's because of the identities
[00:32:48.480]that you inhabit rather than the competencies
[00:32:51.210]that you possess, what I like to do is, one,
[00:32:54.720]I try to make those really killer Zoom interviews.
[00:32:57.780]Like I wanna knock those out of the park.
[00:32:59.880]Yeah. Because one,
[00:33:01.200]how dare you waste my time?
[00:33:05.610]And when you waste my time, nope.
[00:33:10.980]I have not been in that position, so.
[00:33:14.040]And so. I appreciate
[00:33:15.480]what you're saying, yes, it is.
[00:33:16.890]It's going to be like the best darn,
[00:33:19.350]I'm gonna be most prepared for that
[00:33:20.970]because I want them to have to really grapple with,
[00:33:25.350]I want it to be difficult to knock me out, right?
[00:33:28.860]Yeah, and it is an opportunity.
[00:33:30.690]And it is an opportunity, right?
[00:33:32.190]Like if that's (laughs),
[00:33:36.690]it's kind of my Cowboy Carter moment, right?
[00:33:39.900]Like (laughs) I'm going
[00:33:43.500]to put out an exemplary Zoom interview for that
[00:33:48.360]because it's going to give me practice for a position
[00:33:50.580]that I am actually up for
[00:33:53.580]and being considered genuinely for.
[00:33:58.320]And so, one of the biggest things there is,
[00:34:01.910]is I feel like even if you have this notion
[00:34:05.310]that you are there because you're a padding candidate,
[00:34:10.950]still have that confidence, still like go into it going.
[00:34:15.000]In some ways you have nothing to lose.
[00:34:16.560]Right, like. If you feel
[00:34:18.150]like that's the situation, it's like, I have nothing to lose
[00:34:21.060]so I might as well take my best shot
[00:34:24.090]and take a little bit of a risk even.
[00:34:25.890]Exactly, like, you know, and bringing in,
[00:34:31.584]if you have a feeling that that is really what's happening,
[00:34:36.810]directly address that.
[00:34:38.190]Like be very, very clear about those identities
[00:34:43.470]that you occupy, as well as how they intersect
[00:34:48.030]with the competencies that you have.
[00:34:50.670]Because really think about the Zoom interview as a space
[00:34:53.970]where you are building evidence for particular claims
[00:34:57.780]about why you're the best person for this job.
[00:35:00.060]And if they've not truly considered you,
[00:35:05.100]give them reasons to pause
[00:35:07.620]and actually consider you within that.
[00:35:10.890]But also, eh, you could not care.
[00:35:14.640]Yeah, I mean, that's fair.
[00:35:15.896]You know, that's also an option.
[00:35:17.940]I did wanna talk about,
[00:35:20.018]there's one thing we didn't talk about in the interview,
[00:35:23.670]you have to be honest, especially if you're feeling
[00:35:25.980]that you're like, why am I part of this group?
[00:35:30.030]And that is, there might be a question
[00:35:31.920]that has to do with qualifications.
[00:35:34.500]And that is sometimes there's something fuzzy
[00:35:37.680]about one of your qualifications,
[00:35:39.450]especially the absolutely the ones that are required
[00:35:44.400]or the ones that are preferred.
[00:35:46.290]And one of the questions or more might be about those,
[00:35:50.550]if your record is like, I'm not sure, for example,
[00:35:53.730]in teacher education,
[00:35:54.690]often you need experience teaching K12,
[00:35:57.810]and you need a certain number of years, and it might be
[00:36:00.930]that you've transitioned between three different jobs
[00:36:04.200]and the dates, and it's like,
[00:36:06.360]does she have three years experience or is it two?
[00:36:10.110]It's unclear, I've seen a lot of resumes like that.
[00:36:13.890]So first of all, if you can clarify that,
[00:36:15.690]do that in the letter,
[00:36:16.530]but they might be asking you about that
[00:36:18.870]and you'd better have that answer ready, clear
[00:36:22.890]and to the point, yes, I have taught three years,
[00:36:25.530]I've taught first here, then here, then here.
[00:36:27.480]And it comes to three years.
[00:36:28.980]They might ask you that
[00:36:29.970]because sometimes it's their opportunity,
[00:36:31.710]because if there's a question about a required qualification
[00:36:36.480]and it's not answered fully to the committee's satisfaction,
[00:36:41.760]then you're out, I mean, that's an easy out.
[00:36:44.220]So sometimes it's an opportunity to clarify.
[00:36:46.481]If they're like, I think it is,
[00:36:47.670]so we'll include them in the pool, but we need clarity,
[00:36:50.460]it's your opportunity to clarify about that.
[00:36:53.190]And that's something you need to attend to.
[00:36:56.250]Right, and that's one of those things
[00:36:57.210]where if you don't plan to have that time,
[00:36:59.070]you can miss out on that clarification question
[00:37:01.380]and then that's gonna knock you out.
[00:37:03.240]Completely. Of the Zoom interview.
[00:37:05.460]So the goal is to move through the Zoom interview
[00:37:10.410]into the campus interview, right?
[00:37:12.810]Keeping in mind that statistically it's tricky.
[00:37:17.400]So really the goal is to continue to increase those odds.
[00:37:22.950]And over the course of today's podcast, we've talked through
[00:37:27.000]really thinking about how to increase those odds
[00:37:29.760]by rethinking kind of where the Zoom interview falls
[00:37:33.000]within this larger process, how to get better
[00:37:39.450]at that Zoom interview, practice, practice, practice,
[00:37:42.810]and then thinking through what happens
[00:37:46.320]when you're a padding candidate, right?
[00:37:51.690]And some different ways to approach that.
[00:37:56.330]Yeah, so fingers crossed,
[00:37:58.980]like it's kind of like "Hunger Games"
[00:38:02.010]where like maybe odds be ever in your favor.
[00:38:03.817]Please do not shoot anybody (laughs).
[00:38:06.840]It's not quite "Hunger Games."
[00:38:10.260]It's not. Let's not lie.
[00:38:12.840]Well, it is in the fact that it is a zero sum game.
[00:38:16.950]There's one job and only one of you is getting from the job.
[00:38:19.666]Right, like that's. From that perspective, yes.
[00:38:22.200]May the odds be ever in your favor,
[00:38:23.760]but hopefully bringing in some of these practices
[00:38:27.900]can help increase those odds.
[00:38:30.660]So yeah, anything to add? No, I think that's it.
[00:38:36.270]There's my practice, which is right after
[00:38:39.570]or in a short period after,
[00:38:42.060]try to think through what moves you made that were good,
[00:38:46.170]where may you have faltered
[00:38:48.480]just so you can improve the next Zoom interview.
[00:38:50.550]It won't help for this one,
[00:38:52.020]but the next Zoom interview might be better
[00:38:54.690]if you think through where didn't my prep work?
[00:39:00.090]And what is it one more thing I need to add
[00:39:02.700]to how I prepare? Yeah, what was new,
[00:39:06.570]what was different, where did I falter
[00:39:08.850]and how could I make that better?
[00:39:11.524](upbeat music) So yeah, so with that,
[00:39:15.412]may the odds be ever in your favor.
[00:39:16.980]This has been "Not that Kind of Doctor."
[00:39:19.440]We'll see you in the next one.
[00:39:21.271](upbeat music)

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Not That Kind of Doctor - Getting Past the Zoom Interview

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