Patricia Norby: Native American Art at the Met
Center for Great Plains Studies
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02/20/2024
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A conversation between Dr. Patricia Marroquin Norby (Purépecha), Associate Curator of Native American Art at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, and Margaret Jacobs, Director of the Center for Great Plains Studies. Norby, the first full-time curator of Native art in The Met’s 153-year history, spoke about her vital curatorial work that foregrounds Indigenous perspectives and experiences. The “Centering Indigenous Voices in Museums" speaker series features Indigenous museum and cultural professionals who are working to change the narrative and elevate Native creative expression. This series is part of the “Walking in the Footsteps of our Ancestors: Re-Indigenizing Southeast Nebraska” project at the Center for Great Plains Studies, funded by the Mellon Foundation.
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- [00:00:04.380]So, hello, welcome to the Great Plains Art Museum
- [00:00:07.350]at the Center for Great Plains Studies.
- [00:00:09.360]I'm Ashley Wilkinson, Director and Curator of the Museum.
- [00:00:12.990]Thank you all for joining us for tonight's discussion
- [00:00:15.690]between Dr. Patricia Norby and Dr. Margaret Jacobs.
- [00:00:20.430]I'd like to begin by acknowledging
- [00:00:22.260]that the University of Nebraska is a land grant institution
- [00:00:26.130]with campuses and programs on the past, present,
- [00:00:29.670]and future homelands of the Pawnee, Ponca, Otoe-Missouria,
- [00:00:34.680]Omaha, Dakota, Lakota, Kaw, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Peoples,
- [00:00:40.800]as well as those of the relocated Ho-Chunk, Sac and Fox,
- [00:00:44.460]and Iowa Peoples.
- [00:00:46.710]The land we currently call Nebraska has always been
- [00:00:49.920]and will continue to be an Indigenous homeland.
- [00:00:53.040]Please take a moment to consider the legacies
- [00:00:55.800]of more than 150 years of displacement, violence,
- [00:00:59.880]settlement, and survival that bring us here today.
- [00:01:09.570]This acknowledgement and the centering of Indigenous Peoples
- [00:01:12.650]is a start as we move forward together.
- [00:01:16.800]So this talk is the second
- [00:01:18.570]in our Centering Indigenous Voices and Museum series.
- [00:01:22.110]This series highlights Indigenous museum
- [00:01:24.270]and cultural professionals
- [00:01:25.860]who are working to elevate Native creative expression,
- [00:01:28.710]and change how Native stories are told in museums.
- [00:01:32.130]We have one more talk in this series, on March 5th,
- [00:01:35.340]we will hear from Julia LaFreniere,
- [00:01:37.650]who is Head of Indigenous Ways and Equity
- [00:01:40.170]at the Winnipeg Art Gallery, Cal New York.
- [00:01:43.221]Her talk will also be at 5:30 PM right here,
- [00:01:47.010]and we hope you can join us that evening.
- [00:01:50.850]This speaker series is also part of the project
- [00:01:53.557]"Walking in the Footsteps of our Ancestors:
- [00:01:56.010]Re-Indigenizing Southeast Nebraska",
- [00:01:58.320]which is funded by the Mellon Foundation.
- [00:02:00.907]"Walking in the Footsteps of Our Ancestors"
- [00:02:02.850]is a three-year joint project
- [00:02:04.470]of the Center for Great Plain Studies,
- [00:02:06.090]and the Otoe-Missouria Tribe of Oklahoma
- [00:02:08.700]that aims to promote healing and reconciliation
- [00:02:11.250]in southeast Nebraska
- [00:02:12.690]by reconnecting the Otoe-Missouria to their homelands,
- [00:02:15.660]and educating non-Native people about the history
- [00:02:18.690]and ongoing presence of the tribe,
- [00:02:20.730]and other Indigenous Peoples in our region.
- [00:02:23.250]We are incredibly grateful to the Mellon Foundation
- [00:02:25.740]for their generous support of this project
- [00:02:27.870]and the speaker series.
- [00:02:30.390]So I'm gonna introduce tonight's speakers
- [00:02:32.970]who are gonna have a discussion here for us,
- [00:02:35.730]both have worked tirelessly
- [00:02:37.050]to shed more light on Indigenous history and representation
- [00:02:40.080]in academia and cultural institutions,
- [00:02:42.300]and I'm really looking forward to their discussion tonight.
- [00:02:46.350]So first, I will introduce Dr. Patricia Marroquin Norby,
- [00:02:51.120]Purépecha, excuse me, Purépecha --
- [00:02:53.970]Could you say it for me?
- [00:02:54.803]Purépecha. Purépecha, thank you,
- [00:02:56.970]an award-winning art scholar and museum leader
- [00:02:59.880]who is Associate Curator of Native American art
- [00:03:02.540]in The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
- [00:03:04.800]Dr. Norby is the first full-time Curator
- [00:03:07.530]of Native American art in The Met's 153 year history.
- [00:03:12.330]She -- Yay.
- [00:03:13.163]Yeah (laughs)
- [00:03:14.136](audience applause) We can clap,
- [00:03:15.060]we can clap for that. (audience applause)
- [00:03:16.140]Take a pause, yes. (audience applause)
- [00:03:17.820]She previously served as Senior Executive
- [00:03:20.490]and Assistant Director of the Smithsonian's National Museum
- [00:03:23.670]of the American Indian, New York,
- [00:03:25.650]and she was Director of the D'Arcy McNickle Center
- [00:03:28.350]for American Indian and Indigenous Studies
- [00:03:30.840]at the Newberry and Chicago.
- [00:03:33.150]A former Trustee of the Field Museum,
- [00:03:35.220]she served on their Deaccession Committee
- [00:03:37.290]and co-advised on repatriation cases
- [00:03:40.020]and the return of ancestral remains.
- [00:03:42.450]Dr. Norby earned her PhD
- [00:03:44.100]at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities,
- [00:03:46.590]and her MFA at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
- [00:03:50.040]Her scholarly work examines 20th century American Indian
- [00:03:53.400]and American art in context with environmental conflicts
- [00:03:57.180]and violence in Northern New Mexico.
- [00:03:59.970]Her curatorial vision and exhibition strategies,
- [00:04:02.820]which foreground Native American and Indigenous perspectives
- [00:04:05.880]at The Met have been celebrated by many publications.
- [00:04:09.450]And in September, 2023, Dr. Norby was inducted
- [00:04:12.300]into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
- [00:04:16.530]Our second speaker is Dr. Margaret Jacobs,
- [00:04:19.290]who is the Charles Mock Professor of History
- [00:04:21.780]and the Director of the Center
- [00:04:23.160]for Great Plains Studies at UNL.
- [00:04:25.800]With Kevin Abourezk, Dr. Jacobs is the Co-Founder
- [00:04:29.580]and Co-Director of Reconciliation Rising,
- [00:04:32.550]a multimedia project that showcases Indigenous People
- [00:04:36.210]and settlers who are working together
- [00:04:37.830]to honestly confront painful histories,
- [00:04:40.140]and create pathways to healing and reconciliation.
- [00:04:43.860]She is also the Co-Founder and Co-Director
- [00:04:46.080]of the Genoa Indian School Digital Reconciliation Project,
- [00:04:50.040]which digitizes government records
- [00:04:52.020]related to the Genoa School
- [00:04:53.880]as an act of bringing history home to tribal nations,
- [00:04:56.880]and promoting truth-seeking about the boarding schools
- [00:04:59.850]among all Americans.
- [00:05:01.740]She has published more than 35 articles and four books
- [00:05:05.310]primarily about the US government's century-long policy
- [00:05:08.820]and practice of Indigenous child removal.
- [00:05:11.640]She published "After 100 Winters:
- [00:05:14.040]In Search of Reconciliation
- [00:05:15.600]on America's Stolen Lands" in 2021.
- [00:05:19.260]So please join me in welcoming
- [00:05:21.210]Dr. Patricia Norby and Dr. Margaret Jacobs.
- [00:05:24.211](audience applause)
- [00:05:29.833]I'm following
- [00:05:30.666]your guidance. It is on.
- [00:05:31.860]They're already on.
- [00:05:32.763]Okay.
- [00:05:33.596](Margaret and Patricia laughing)
- [00:05:34.429]Just following your lead.
- [00:05:35.700]So it's really an incredible privilege
- [00:05:38.430]to be with you, Patricia, Dr. Norby,
- [00:05:41.910]and I just was really excited when you asked
- [00:05:46.920]that instead of doing a talk, we do a kind of interview,
- [00:05:50.790]because I'm such an admirer
- [00:05:52.050]of all that you've done in your long career.
- [00:05:54.648]Oh, thank you.
- [00:05:55.823]And I wanted to just start really by --
- [00:06:00.780]I know from talking with you,
- [00:06:02.280]you have a real passion for art,
- [00:06:05.370]and I wondered where that came from,
- [00:06:07.260]and where did you develop this interest?
- [00:06:11.550]Well, thank you for your question, Margaret,
- [00:06:13.440]but I also wanna thank everyone for having me here today,
- [00:06:16.500]and for being here tonight, I know it's a lot.
- [00:06:19.560]Everyone's working and busy,
- [00:06:21.090]and so to come out and share in this conversation
- [00:06:24.210]and your presence is a gift, so thank you.
- [00:06:28.560]And I also want to say
- [00:06:30.420]that as a woman of Purepecha descent,
- [00:06:32.190]my ancestry comes from south of the settler colonial border,
- [00:06:35.460]and so I need to acknowledge that I'm a guest here
- [00:06:38.340]and show my respect to the original peoples of this,
- [00:06:42.120]and who call this place home.
- [00:06:43.350]So I wanna say that, as well.
- [00:06:45.780]My background in art, actually,
- [00:06:47.400]there's a story, and I like to tell stories.
- [00:06:50.280]So I grew up in Chicago, Illinois,
- [00:06:54.630]and grew up in public school system, visiting museums,
- [00:07:00.840]and that's part of the education process, of course,
- [00:07:03.000]everyone has experienced that,
- [00:07:04.590]but there was a significant moment for me
- [00:07:07.500]when I was about seven-years-old,
- [00:07:09.600]and we were on a field trip to the Art Institute of Chicago,
- [00:07:13.410]and it was the first time my mother had decided
- [00:07:16.620]to come on the trip
- [00:07:17.640]as one of those parent chaperone kind of deals,
- [00:07:20.160]you know, when your parents, "Oh, I'll come with."
- [00:07:22.950]And I was really excited, and we were on the school bus,
- [00:07:25.770]and I was so happy my mother was coming,
- [00:07:28.770]and my mother was a very fragile person,
- [00:07:32.130]she struggled with addiction and anxiety,
- [00:07:34.860]and by the time we got to Chicago from outside the city,
- [00:07:39.420]she was having a really difficult time.
- [00:07:41.880]And I was just a seven-year-old kid,
- [00:07:43.500]so I didn't know what was happening,
- [00:07:45.270]but by the time we arrived at the Art Institute,
- [00:07:49.260]my mother had to leave,
- [00:07:50.760]because she was having such a tough time,
- [00:07:52.830]and I didn't know what was happening,
- [00:07:54.330]nobody explained to me what was happening,
- [00:07:56.040]but she suddenly left.
- [00:07:58.080]And I was frightened because I was a child.
- [00:08:01.440]But one of my teachers took me by the hand
- [00:08:04.680]and walked around with me at the Art Institute
- [00:08:07.230]looking at paintings.
- [00:08:09.300]And I remember so specifically this really calming,
- [00:08:12.900]soothing sensation washing over me
- [00:08:15.780]as I was looking at the artwork.
- [00:08:17.700]And I still feel that way when I walk into museums.
- [00:08:22.380]And I still feel that there is a very fine line
- [00:08:25.920]between aesthetics and healing,
- [00:08:29.340]and that when an artist creates something,
- [00:08:32.070]they go into a meditative state, they get into such a zone
- [00:08:36.390]that that's an important part of them
- [00:08:38.490]that's creating that work,
- [00:08:39.810]and I think that comes out in the artwork itself.
- [00:08:43.200]And so that was pretty much, you know,
- [00:08:46.110]the moment for me that I can reflect on,
- [00:08:49.020]but I can also say that, you know,
- [00:08:51.270]both my parents were very young when they had me,
- [00:08:53.160]they were 18, and they struggled, and we were poor.
- [00:08:58.020]But one of the things we could do was make things together.
- [00:09:01.200]And so we were always drawing, or coloring,
- [00:09:03.690]or making, sewing things together,
- [00:09:05.730]and it was a really big part of our sense of connection,
- [00:09:09.930]and so I think that's really where it started for me,
- [00:09:12.450]and it's just something that has stayed with me
- [00:09:14.580]for a very long time.
- [00:09:19.620]Are you a practicing artist, as well?
- [00:09:22.200]I'm actually, yes.
- [00:09:23.880]So I'm a trained fine artist,
- [00:09:25.560]I actually started in the art world,
- [00:09:28.560]and in the museum world as an artist.
- [00:09:31.320]So I have a BFA in printmaking,
- [00:09:34.920]no, a BFA in painting and drawing,
- [00:09:37.320]and then an MFA in printmaking.
- [00:09:39.600]I'm also a trained vocalist.
- [00:09:42.090]Originally I was accepted to go to college,
- [00:09:44.280]to music performance school.
- [00:09:46.590]I studied opera, and I had an opera coach
- [00:09:49.260]all through high school.
- [00:09:50.760]And I had to decide, am I going to music performance,
- [00:09:53.940]or am I going into fine arts school,
- [00:09:55.620]and I ended up going
- [00:09:56.880]to the Art Institute in Chicago for a time,
- [00:09:59.370]and then I transferred to a small liberal arts college
- [00:10:02.850]in Dubuque, Iowa, which is the ham capital
- [00:10:04.860]of the United States.
- [00:10:05.910]And it's now, it was Clark College back then,
- [00:10:09.990]it's a small Catholic liberal arts school.
- [00:10:11.970]It's now Clark University.
- [00:10:15.030]But yes, I'm a trained fine artist,
- [00:10:17.280]and I love that I went to art school,
- [00:10:21.330]because it's given me an entirely different perspective
- [00:10:24.720]of looking at an understanding art of all genre,
- [00:10:28.830]but also understanding the level
- [00:10:31.350]of emotional and physical energy
- [00:10:34.680]that goes into making something,
- [00:10:36.540]but also how an artist is really putting themselves
- [00:10:41.520]out there when they make something,
- [00:10:43.740]and they put it out into the world,
- [00:10:45.600]it's a very vulnerable place to be,
- [00:10:48.300]and so I think that has helped in my writing about art.
- [00:10:52.380]So now I write about art, I'm actually an Americanist,
- [00:10:57.150]I'm not strictly a scholar of Native American art.
- [00:11:01.410]I write about non-Native art or American art, as well.
- [00:11:04.361]So that's my long answer.
- [00:11:07.380]Yes, I am. (Patricia and audience laugh)
- [00:11:10.650]Do you actually find time in your busy life
- [00:11:13.770]to continue to, you know, make prints, or draw, or paint?
- [00:11:19.590]I don't, but you know, I write about art now,
- [00:11:22.860]and I engage with artists all the time,
- [00:11:27.090]and then I do find other things to do with my hands.
- [00:11:30.450]So I learned to crochet from my mother-in-law,
- [00:11:34.530]so I really love to do that,
- [00:11:36.240]and then recently I started embroidering
- [00:11:39.060]and created some small, you know,
- [00:11:41.160]little creative projects that way.
- [00:11:42.810]But I do find it very soothing to make something,
- [00:11:46.740]because like I said, you get into a zone,
- [00:11:49.020]it's a very meditative process.
- [00:11:51.150]There's something about engaging with materials,
- [00:11:54.300]I love all of that, and, you know,
- [00:11:57.060]I've really been thinking about this lately,
- [00:11:59.100]I have been thinking about paint again,
- [00:12:02.940]and what would I paint now, you know, 30 years later
- [00:12:07.170]after I actually studied painting and drawing,
- [00:12:08.970]like, what would that look like for me now,
- [00:12:10.530]and so I've been thinking about that again,
- [00:12:12.600]and I'm going like this, because I think a lot with my hands
- [00:12:17.250]and my eyes, and you know,
- [00:12:18.660]I think that's part of the art process.
- [00:12:22.110]So something you said about
- [00:12:23.550]how making art puts you in kind of a vulnerable space.
- [00:12:28.800]I feel the same when I write,
- [00:12:30.660]and when I try to publish something.
- [00:12:34.110]Do you also have that when you publish articles
- [00:12:37.620]and things about art history?
- [00:12:39.450]Yes. (Patricia and Margaret laugh)
- [00:12:41.100]It's, you know, there's this level of anxiety
- [00:12:42.900]when you're producing something,
- [00:12:44.040]it's coming from the heart,
- [00:12:45.720]you're putting yourself out there, your opinions,
- [00:12:47.580]and then once it's out there, it takes a life of its own,
- [00:12:50.370]and people are going to interpret it
- [00:12:52.620]no matter what your intentions are,
- [00:12:54.990]and no matter how you shaped it,
- [00:12:58.200]so that they would interpret it a particular way.
- [00:13:00.300]There's always someone who shows up,
- [00:13:02.760]who has a completely different interpretation,
- [00:13:04.950]and there's nothing you can really do about that.
- [00:13:07.110]You can maybe engage in a dialogue with that person,
- [00:13:09.690]but it's always interesting to hear those perspectives
- [00:13:12.720]that you weren't expecting.
- [00:13:15.780]It's the same when you're creating an exhibit, as well,
- [00:13:19.200]because you're selecting works that are important to you,
- [00:13:22.530]or perhaps, you know, of a particular area or theme,
- [00:13:26.760]there's many different reasons
- [00:13:27.780]to create an exhibition thematically
- [00:13:29.580]or from your collections.
- [00:13:32.310]It's the same thing.
- [00:13:33.143]You're creating something
- [00:13:33.976]and then putting it out there in the world.
- [00:13:37.260]So I know we have very serious topics to cover,
- [00:13:40.560]but I wanna know more about the singing too.
- [00:13:43.620]Are you able to integrate that into your life?
- [00:13:47.190]I haven't, no, no. No.
- [00:13:49.006]That's not something,
- [00:13:50.490]I mean, I sing for my family around the house,
- [00:13:52.620]but that's about it, you know.
- [00:13:54.090]Well, this is funny, I mean,
- [00:13:55.470]I wanna hear more from Patricia,
- [00:13:57.390]but when I was in high school, I was in three operas.
- [00:14:01.770]Oh, you were? And I thought
- [00:14:02.730]about my mother really wanted me to go
- [00:14:05.400]to try to go to Julliard and become a professional musician,
- [00:14:09.450]and so it's really funny to have
- [00:14:11.040]that interesting parallel
- [00:14:13.620]in our lives. Yeah.
- [00:14:14.790]I would say, you know, in terms of voice, you know,
- [00:14:17.460]it really is, that's definitely putting yourself out there
- [00:14:21.630]in a vulnerable space.
- [00:14:22.800]My daughter is a jazz musician,
- [00:14:25.020]and she plays five instruments,
- [00:14:27.360]and she has the most beautiful singing voice,
- [00:14:29.880]but she won't sing publicly.
- [00:14:32.100]And there's something about that for her,
- [00:14:34.230]she's able to hide behind her instruments,
- [00:14:37.170]but when it comes to putting her voice out there,
- [00:14:39.990]she's not ready to do that yet, but I hope she will
- [00:14:42.240]one day. Yeah.
- [00:14:44.700]So what a rich conversation.
- [00:14:46.350]I'm really enjoying this.
- [00:14:48.930]I wanna ask you, you hinted at this,
- [00:14:51.330]or you started to go down this path
- [00:14:55.590]about what role art plays
- [00:14:59.160]for Indigenous communities, Indigenous People.
- [00:15:02.820]You talked about art as a very healing, soothing thing.
- [00:15:10.402]What role does art play in promoting
- [00:15:14.310]other aspects of Indigeneity, like sovereignty,
- [00:15:18.420]movements for revitalization?
- [00:15:21.900]Well, there's so many that, you know,
- [00:15:24.090]you can't really pinpoint it, to just a few.
- [00:15:26.070]And again, what I understand
- [00:15:28.560]about a creative work is just the beginning, right?
- [00:15:34.320]Because although I work very closely
- [00:15:37.680]with Indigenous communities, Native communities
- [00:15:40.170]with presenting works, and I'll share about that,
- [00:15:43.680]not everything's gonna be shared with me,
- [00:15:46.230]even though I'm an Indigenous woman,
- [00:15:48.000]I'm not of the communities who I work with.
- [00:15:51.480]And so not everything is gonna be shared,
- [00:15:54.120]so there's always that part.
- [00:15:57.030]But what I've come to understand working directly
- [00:16:00.480]with Native communities is that there's so many ways
- [00:16:03.930]to look at something, and you can read the connections
- [00:16:08.700]or the transitions materially in a work,
- [00:16:12.120]how a basket is constructed
- [00:16:13.770]or where there was a moment when there was a shift
- [00:16:15.900]in materials because particular grasses
- [00:16:19.500]or trees were no longer accessible,
- [00:16:22.590]and so they had to shift in their materials,
- [00:16:24.780]or particular designs
- [00:16:26.220]that have been passed down intergenerationally,
- [00:16:28.680]and who has the authority to make those designs.
- [00:16:32.520]There's so much information embodied
- [00:16:36.000]materially and aesthetically in an item,
- [00:16:41.070]and it's right there in front of you.
- [00:16:42.750]It's just that you have to work with the communities
- [00:16:45.090]to understand how to look.
- [00:16:46.710]And I think that that's one of the most rewarding parts
- [00:16:49.740]of what I do, is learning, learning about that,
- [00:16:53.910]and these conversations that I have with community members.
- [00:16:59.580]That seems what you're describing,
- [00:17:01.830]that process seems so different from older practices
- [00:17:05.610]of the art world,
- [00:17:07.650]in relationship to Indigenous communities,
- [00:17:09.750]could you maybe speak a little bit about
- [00:17:13.260]what it used to be like, and yeah, I'll just ask you that.
- [00:17:18.300]Yeah, so I can speak from The Met,
- [00:17:20.820]my perspective of my experience at The Met,
- [00:17:22.920]and that is The Met for many years functioned
- [00:17:26.190]as the one rockstar curator type of deal, right?
- [00:17:31.830]Type of method or approach.
- [00:17:35.730]And more recently, we've shifted significantly,
- [00:17:39.990]specifically in our presentation
- [00:17:41.730]of Native American Indigenous art.
- [00:17:44.040]And for me, it was very natural to do,
- [00:17:47.580]because of my work previously at the Newberry,
- [00:17:50.760]working with Indigenous communities,
- [00:17:51.960]but also at the National Museum of American Indian.
- [00:17:55.710]For me, that came naturally.
- [00:17:57.600]And so we've had a series of exhibitions
- [00:17:59.910]that involve working with communities,
- [00:18:02.640]foregrounding their perspectives, all of these things,
- [00:18:06.300]involving their consent to exhibit particular items.
- [00:18:10.590]But it was a long process for my colleagues
- [00:18:15.480]to understand that we're not all experts.
- [00:18:18.990]And that was something that when I first came to The Met,
- [00:18:22.110]they would say, "Well, you're the expert.
- [00:18:24.300]Well, you're the expert in that area."
- [00:18:26.010]And I had to say to them numerous times,
- [00:18:29.197]"I'm really not comfortable when you say that to me."
- [00:18:32.550]But for my colleagues, that was a sign
- [00:18:34.650]of respect to say that,
- [00:18:36.570]but for me, it was very uncomfortable.
- [00:18:38.880]And I would say, "I'm not the expert.
- [00:18:41.340]The communities are the experts,
- [00:18:42.780]so please, please don't say that",
- [00:18:45.450]and at first, they were really puzzled by this,
- [00:18:48.840]but I just felt like it was really important for me
- [00:18:51.330]to say that and also really emphasize
- [00:18:55.140]the need to work with communities.
- [00:18:58.320]Yeah.
- [00:18:59.400]So we know from, if you attended our last speaker
- [00:19:03.390]in the series with Amy Lonetree,
- [00:19:05.190]who's written an incredible book
- [00:19:06.720]called "Decolonizing Museums",
- [00:19:09.000]and maybe you know this already, and it's in the news a lot,
- [00:19:13.020]museums in general have had a really fraught relationship
- [00:19:16.140]with Indigenous Peoples, especially around collecting,
- [00:19:20.220]taking, stealing ancestral remains,
- [00:19:23.460]and then refusing to give them back.
- [00:19:25.500]And Amy talked a lot about that process.
- [00:19:31.260]But what I'm curious, what are the issues of concern
- [00:19:34.770]to Indigenous People in regard to art museums in general,
- [00:19:37.830]and then maybe we can get more into The Met later.
- [00:19:41.940]Well, I mean, there's been a fraught relationship
- [00:19:44.820]from the beginning,
- [00:19:46.350]but you know, I first need to say that decolonizing
- [00:19:50.160]in terms of, you know, decolonizing museums
- [00:19:52.290]is a very aspirational goal.
- [00:19:54.990]And I'm still not quite sure that that's the right term,
- [00:20:00.510]because I don't know that museums could ever be decolonized.
- [00:20:03.900]They are institutions that are celebrating colonization,
- [00:20:08.940]and we have to embrace that, not in a celebratory way,
- [00:20:13.230]but in an honest way, a reflective way,
- [00:20:16.470]and find a better way.
- [00:20:18.390]And I think that that is what is happening now.
- [00:20:21.300]The other part of that, that I struggle with is that
- [00:20:25.050]the people who have been foregrounding this concept
- [00:20:27.690]of decolonization are people who have not actually done
- [00:20:30.840]the groundwork in museums.
- [00:20:33.300]They're people who have approached this
- [00:20:34.830]from a theoretical approach,
- [00:20:37.980]but they do not work in museums on a day-to-day basis.
- [00:20:41.880]They are not there doing
- [00:20:43.230]the actual groundwork of repatriation, of collections care,
- [00:20:49.260]of emailing endless emails and correspondence,
- [00:20:52.020]and coordinating consultation visits with communities,
- [00:20:55.590]they're people who are approaching this from, you know,
- [00:20:59.580]a very --
- [00:21:01.167]And I respect that aspiration, and I respect that goal,
- [00:21:05.490]but the day-to-day work of the people
- [00:21:07.590]who are actually doing the work on the ground,
- [00:21:10.980]I think that's something that needs to be
- [00:21:13.800]more deeply understood by the public,
- [00:21:17.070]because this concept of decolonization
- [00:21:19.560]cannot happen overnight.
- [00:21:22.290]And when I hear people say, "Give it all back, decolonize",
- [00:21:26.550]all these terms, it's a clear signal to me
- [00:21:29.700]that they do not work in museums.
- [00:21:32.160]That they haven't been engaged for a long time
- [00:21:35.850]in museum at the actual work.
- [00:21:39.720]Maybe they've had a fellowship in a museum,
- [00:21:42.870]or maybe they've been in a museum for a couple of years,
- [00:21:46.590]and then, you know, they've moved on.
- [00:21:48.750]But it actually takes years to shift an institution,
- [00:21:54.630]and I think those of us who are here, you know,
- [00:21:56.400]who've been engaged with academia
- [00:21:59.070]know that how long it takes
- [00:22:00.990]to really get something to change, it takes a long time,
- [00:22:03.961]and it's draining, it's exhausting for the people
- [00:22:07.620]who are doing it on the ground,
- [00:22:08.880]and so there's part of me that actually has
- [00:22:13.530]some feelings about it,
- [00:22:14.850]because right when we have an increase
- [00:22:18.000]in Indigenous representation
- [00:22:20.070]and Indigenous leadership in museum institutions
- [00:22:23.850]is the moment when people started attacking museums,
- [00:22:29.460]and started making it really hard
- [00:22:31.890]for those of us Indigenous People
- [00:22:34.380]who are actually doing the day-to-day work to do our jobs.
- [00:22:39.480]So not only are we struggling to do the work with,
- [00:22:43.260]you know, updating inventories and summaries,
- [00:22:46.980]and getting that out to the communities and to NAGPRA,
- [00:22:49.890]and all the work that has to do that,
- [00:22:51.780]and consultation, you know,
- [00:22:52.860]all this groundwork that happens,
- [00:22:56.910]we're also dealing with, on a personal level,
- [00:23:00.000]constant attacks in the public, in public eye,
- [00:23:04.800]on social media from people
- [00:23:07.620]who don't understand how much work it really takes.
- [00:23:11.820]So I needed to say that,
- [00:23:13.950]and it's not that I don't believe that it can be done.
- [00:23:16.500]I do believe it can be done,
- [00:23:18.690]but I'm wondering how can it be done in a way
- [00:23:21.510]that that supports the people
- [00:23:23.730]who are actually doing the work in the institutions,
- [00:23:27.354]so that we're supporting them.
- [00:23:29.640]So I really need to say that too,
- [00:23:32.370]and I forgot the rest of your question.
- [00:23:33.908](audience laughing)
- [00:23:35.160]I know it was a long question.
- [00:23:37.042]Yeah. And I actually
- [00:23:38.550]would love to take you back a little bit,
- [00:23:40.740]and so I'm sure there's people in the audience
- [00:23:43.650]who maybe is the first time they've ever thought
- [00:23:46.740]about an art museum could be a colonial institution.
- [00:23:50.100]So I wonder if you could explain
- [00:23:52.470]what we mean when we say that.
- [00:23:55.560]Well, what I mean is that we know that items were taken
- [00:24:00.270]in ways that were not respectful ways,
- [00:24:02.550]that were taken in harmful ways,
- [00:24:04.050]that were taken under duress, we know that,
- [00:24:07.260]and now we have to do the work to correct this,
- [00:24:10.650]and to do what's right.
- [00:24:11.880]But we have to do that working with communities,
- [00:24:14.550]and I think we have to do that in a way
- [00:24:16.830]that is supporting the museum,
- [00:24:18.510]the people who are doing the work within the institutions.
- [00:24:21.840]There is a misunderstanding, or you know,
- [00:24:24.390]that museums are holding onto things,
- [00:24:27.300]that they don't wanna give things back.
- [00:24:29.310]I'm very pro-repatriation,
- [00:24:31.470]as was mentioned in my introduction,
- [00:24:34.410]I worked, I was a Trustee at the Field Museum,
- [00:24:37.350]I served under their DX session
- [00:24:38.520]and repatriation committee, I'm very pro-repatriation,
- [00:24:43.440]but NAGPRA, the process
- [00:24:45.540]and the repatriation process is a two-way street.
- [00:24:48.570]The museum first provides updated collection summaries
- [00:24:52.830]to the communities and to national NAGPRA headquarters.
- [00:24:55.860]Then those summaries are taken in by the communities,
- [00:24:59.220]they go through them,
- [00:25:00.570]and then they have to reach out to museums
- [00:25:02.820]and say, "Let's have a consultation,
- [00:25:05.130]we'll go through the list,
- [00:25:06.660]and then we'll let you know
- [00:25:07.710]which items we want repatriated",
- [00:25:09.570]and then they file an official repatriation claim.
- [00:25:13.200]So it's a federal process and it's a legal process,
- [00:25:16.290]but if a community doesn't have the infrastructure
- [00:25:18.450]or the capacity to do that type of work,
- [00:25:20.670]if they don't have someone in their community,
- [00:25:22.770]then it's difficult, because it's a partnership.
- [00:25:27.690]And so there's this concept or this, I don't know,
- [00:25:31.290]what would we call, like this idea that museums
- [00:25:34.770]are just holding onto things, when it actually, you know,
- [00:25:38.130]it's like I said, it's a balance
- [00:25:42.810]between the communities and the institutions.
- [00:25:46.500]And I'm forgetting what else ...
- [00:25:47.850]I'm sorry.
- [00:25:48.683]I keep going on -- No, no,
- [00:25:49.627]that's okay. on these tangents,
- [00:25:50.910]but please, if you wanna ... Yeah.
- [00:25:54.240]So I think it's so interesting,
- [00:25:55.800]because you described that there's this new process,
- [00:25:59.040]well, one, it's just you do these inventories,
- [00:26:02.010]you summarize the collections, you share them
- [00:26:04.260]with Indigenous communities, you invite them to make claims,
- [00:26:08.940]but when you're putting together an exhibition or something,
- [00:26:11.940]or we're just working to identify artwork,
- [00:26:15.210]you are working with communities,
- [00:26:16.950]and that is such a shift
- [00:26:18.840]from what you described as the rockstar,
- [00:26:21.360]you know, the one lone curator.
- [00:26:23.970]What do you think brought about that shift?
- [00:26:26.550]Why are museums developing these new practices
- [00:26:31.170]toward Indigenous communities?
- [00:26:32.790]Well, I don't think they're new.
- [00:26:35.040]And my initial museum training
- [00:26:36.990]was at the National Museum of American Indian,
- [00:26:38.700]which opened in 2004.
- [00:26:41.340]So that was in Washington DC.
- [00:26:43.350]And even prior to that, so NMAI based their process
- [00:26:49.170]or their approach on tribal museums.
- [00:26:51.750]So on reservations across the country,
- [00:26:53.790]there were tribal museums who were already doing this work.
- [00:26:56.670]And then NMAI followed that approach,
- [00:26:59.610]they also looked to museums in Mexico,
- [00:27:02.280]and followed their approach.
- [00:27:03.990]So this is not new,
- [00:27:05.940]this is just another generation of this type of work
- [00:27:09.330]that has been going on for decades.
- [00:27:11.640]It's not new in the museum world.
- [00:27:14.130]And I finally remembered what she was asking before,
- [00:27:16.397]so I'm gonna go back,
- [00:27:17.760]but you mentioned about aesthetics and healing.
- [00:27:21.630]So when we put on an exhibition at The Met,
- [00:27:25.020]if there's something, an item that, you know, flags --
- [00:27:31.560]There's something about it that I don't know,
- [00:27:34.200]or, you know, I just get a feeling about it,
- [00:27:37.380]or just some, you know, our documentation is not full,
- [00:27:42.210]I will reach out
- [00:27:43.140]to the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer of a community,
- [00:27:46.500]I'll send them images and I will have a conversation
- [00:27:49.620]or correspondence with them
- [00:27:51.270]about whether or not it's appropriate to put on view,
- [00:27:53.640]we have had instances where they've said,
- [00:27:55.537]"No, please don't", and then we don't, no questions asked,
- [00:27:59.190]I do not pry, I don't ask why, or, you know,
- [00:28:03.450]'cause it's not my business.
- [00:28:05.370]If a community says, "Please don't put that on view",
- [00:28:07.500]we don't put it on view.
- [00:28:09.090]And when I first arrived at The Met,
- [00:28:10.410]there were items that were on view
- [00:28:11.940]that I was uncomfortable with,
- [00:28:13.620]even though they weren't from my community.
- [00:28:15.780]And so I worked steadily to get those items off view.
- [00:28:20.430]And so, for instance, an example would be children's items.
- [00:28:26.370]We don't know where some of those items came from.
- [00:28:29.880]And with all of the information coming out,
- [00:28:31.680]for instance, about boarding schools,
- [00:28:34.080]I felt uncomfortable as an Indigenous person,
- [00:28:38.070]as a mother, you know, all of these things,
- [00:28:40.740]I just said, "I don't feel comfortable
- [00:28:42.360]having children's items on view",
- [00:28:44.100]and so we have taken children's items off view.
- [00:28:46.860]So that's just an example, because for me,
- [00:28:49.790]as I mentioned before, is a fine line
- [00:28:51.600]between aesthetics and medicine for a number of communities.
- [00:28:57.870]Aesthetics can be a form of medicine,
- [00:28:59.910]and I believe that to be true.
- [00:29:02.280]There's all kinds of references
- [00:29:04.200]to beauty as a form of healing.
- [00:29:07.770]And so I think it's important to respect that.
- [00:29:10.320]Nice.
- [00:29:13.020]So maybe you could tell us what is happening at The Met.
- [00:29:17.208]Okay. (Margaret and Patricia laugh)
- [00:29:19.710]Yeah, so I brought some slides of what we've been up to.
- [00:29:24.120]I wanted to share this with all of you.
- [00:29:26.280]This is, if you see on this slide ...
- [00:29:30.180]Oh, there's like a little thing here, right?
- [00:29:31.740]A little red ...
- [00:29:32.820]Yeah, so this is an entrance
- [00:29:35.400]into the Art of Native America Gallery,
- [00:29:37.470]which is on the first floor of The Met,
- [00:29:39.120]this is the entrance, it's coming off of,
- [00:29:42.720]you can see here there's a little foyer
- [00:29:45.090]that comes out of this atrium space
- [00:29:48.780]that's filled with all these marble, grand marble statues,
- [00:29:52.440]and then there's a glass door and hallway.
- [00:29:54.840]But this, when I first arrived at The Met,
- [00:29:57.120]this wall was a map of that delineated where all the tribes
- [00:30:03.660]who were represented in the exhibition came from.
- [00:30:07.260]And it was classic map that we, you know,
- [00:30:09.990]that we would all see in a classroom.
- [00:30:12.510]And I said to my colleagues, "This has to be taken down."
- [00:30:16.200]And they were kind of surprised by that.
- [00:30:18.150]And I said, "This map doesn't show seasonal migrations,
- [00:30:22.350]it doesn't show intercultural relationships,
- [00:30:25.260]it doesn't show movement of any kind,
- [00:30:28.380]this is not an Indigenous map.
- [00:30:30.210]So it needs to come down, and if we're gonna have a map,
- [00:30:33.120]we will have an Indigenous map in this space."
- [00:30:35.910]And so they listened to me,
- [00:30:37.830]and instead we installed this in 2021,
- [00:30:41.247]and it's our "Active Land and Water Statement".
- [00:30:44.940]I call it a statement, I don't call it a acknowledgement,
- [00:30:48.750]to me, statement is more active.
- [00:30:51.630]And then, so we have that,
- [00:30:53.040]and I'll share a little more about that with you,
- [00:30:54.660]but we have this case here now,
- [00:30:58.200]and it's reserved for a contemporary,
- [00:31:02.700]an artwork by a contemporary artist.
- [00:31:05.370]And right now we have Peter Jones, who's Onondaga,
- [00:31:09.600]who single-handedly revived
- [00:31:12.330]traditional pottery methods in his community.
- [00:31:15.900]He's an educator and an artist,
- [00:31:17.580]and he creates some really beautiful
- [00:31:19.680]pit-fired, coil-built and pit-fired vessels
- [00:31:23.250]that represent the ancestors and ancestral methods
- [00:31:27.540]or approaches to pottery making.
- [00:31:29.340]So that's new.
- [00:31:31.290]And then, I'm not gonna read the whole thing,
- [00:31:34.020]but this is the "Land and Water Statement",
- [00:31:36.000]I'm just gonna read the blue.
- [00:31:38.497]"We commit to pursuing continuous collaborations
- [00:31:41.100]with Indigenous communities,
- [00:31:43.080]and present Native American art in a manner
- [00:31:47.610]that is inclusive of Indigenous perspectives,
- [00:31:49.860]involves guidance from source communities,
- [00:31:51.480]and creates space for respectful listening,
- [00:31:53.460]and thoughtful dialogue.
- [00:31:55.260]We'll work to advance Indigenous experiences
- [00:31:57.540]in The Met's exhibitions, collections, and programs,
- [00:32:00.480]we will strengthen our awareness of historical
- [00:32:02.460]and contemporary environmental issues in the New York region
- [00:32:05.100]and throughout North America in order to thoughtfully reckon
- [00:32:07.530]with our institutional legacy,
- [00:32:09.660]and its impact on the lands, waters,
- [00:32:11.400]and original peoples of this place,
- [00:32:13.500]which are and always will be inextricable."
- [00:32:16.770]So this is now installed
- [00:32:19.410]in the Art of Native America Gallery,
- [00:32:22.860]and it really puts out there how we will work
- [00:32:27.570]with Indigenous communities, but also appear ...
- [00:32:35.160]This is one of my favorite lines or phrases,
- [00:32:38.010]and it says, "We understand that these items,
- [00:32:39.690]vibrant expressions of Native sovereignty, identity,
- [00:32:42.600]and connections to community and family
- [00:32:44.070]embody intergenerational environmental knowledge,
- [00:32:47.100]including origin stories, languages, songs,
- [00:32:49.320]dances, and ties to homelands."
- [00:32:51.090]So just really putting it out there
- [00:32:53.640]like this is how we're gonna approach this moving forward.
- [00:32:57.060]And I was actually kind of surprised
- [00:32:58.890]when I said to my colleagues,
- [00:33:02.107]"We have to have this and this is what it should say",
- [00:33:05.310]and I thought they would say, "No way,
- [00:33:07.770]we're not putting that in The Met."
- [00:33:09.450]But they said, "Okay, let's do it", so we did it.
- [00:33:14.460]This is a recent,
- [00:33:15.720]this is a celebration of a recent exhibition we had
- [00:33:18.127]"Grounded in Clay: The Spirit of Pueblo Pottery",
- [00:33:21.270]this was the first community-curated exhibition
- [00:33:24.320]in the entire history of The Met.
- [00:33:26.850]So we just, this is still on view, so entire 153 history,
- [00:33:31.740]they had never had a community-curated
- [00:33:33.330]Native American exhibition.
- [00:33:35.400]And this was the celebrating opening,
- [00:33:39.510]we got everyone together who worked on the exhibition,
- [00:33:44.340]and we wanted to get a picture of everyone at the opening,
- [00:33:48.090]but this was also the first time
- [00:33:52.170]that The Met had a Native American banner
- [00:33:54.690]on the front of the museum.
- [00:33:56.640]So we had had a banner for the opening
- [00:34:00.030]of the Charles and Valerie Diker Collection,
- [00:34:02.070]which I'm sure a lot of people may have heard about,
- [00:34:05.910]but what I said to my colleagues was
- [00:34:07.987]"That banner for the Charles and Valerie Diker Collection
- [00:34:11.970]was not about the communities.
- [00:34:13.890]That banner was about Charles and Valerie Diker.
- [00:34:16.860]And we have to have a banner celebrating Native people."
- [00:34:19.920]And so we got this banner on the building,
- [00:34:24.330]and it was this moment where I just felt so good,
- [00:34:30.300]like we're doing what we said we're gonna do,
- [00:34:33.690]and I felt good, 'cause I'm like,
- [00:34:34.860]I'm keeping my promise to the communities,
- [00:34:37.020]and it just felt like this moment that, you know,
- [00:34:40.110]you knew things were changing,
- [00:34:41.700]and it felt good that way.
- [00:34:44.730]But I have it here with this Pueblo delegation
- [00:34:48.870]at the US Capitol in 1923,
- [00:34:50.520]'cause I was thinking about
- [00:34:56.280]Indigenous activism, Native activism,
- [00:34:58.380]I think about it a lot,
- [00:34:59.790]and this is the anniversary this year
- [00:35:03.120]of the American Indian Citizenship Act.
- [00:35:06.330]This was the year that most Native people
- [00:35:09.600]were embraced as Native American citizens,
- [00:35:12.510]or brought into the fold as Native American citizen,
- [00:35:14.640]or American citizens, sorry,
- [00:35:16.410]except for in Arizona and New Mexico,
- [00:35:18.660]which Native people there did not have citizenship,
- [00:35:22.230]full citizenship until 1948.
- [00:35:25.200]So I wanted to have these two images together,
- [00:35:28.800]and to think about different forms of activism.
- [00:35:33.060]And this picture up here is a Pueblo delegation
- [00:35:37.860]of 12 Pueblo men who went to Washington DC,
- [00:35:41.940]they traveled all the way from New Mexico,
- [00:35:45.780]they went up through Chicago, they presented their situation
- [00:35:50.850]to arts clubs and social clubs, social elite in Chicago,
- [00:35:56.340]and then they traveled all across the country,
- [00:35:58.620]they were on radio programs telling their story,
- [00:36:01.860]and it was interesting to read the transcripts,
- [00:36:04.680]because they also testified at Congressional hearings
- [00:36:08.310]in January and February of 1923,
- [00:36:10.740]and in those transcripts, when you read them,
- [00:36:14.640]they wanna talk about Indigenous sovereignty,
- [00:36:17.670]and they wanna talk about how their land and water
- [00:36:21.630]is being taken from them.
- [00:36:23.400]But the members of Congress and other people
- [00:36:26.550]wanna ask them about their eating habits,
- [00:36:29.910]and they wanna ask them about their blankets,
- [00:36:32.880]and they wanna ask them about intermarriage or marriage.
- [00:36:36.570]But it's just that,
- [00:36:37.860]it's the craziest transcript you can read.
- [00:36:41.100]I highly recommend it.
- [00:36:42.635](Patricia and audience laugh)
- [00:36:43.560]But it's very interesting, these two different perspectives.
- [00:36:48.870]This is just another view of the banner in front of The Met.
- [00:36:52.590]So "Grounded in Clay" was the first community-curated
- [00:36:56.100]Native exhibition in 153 years,
- [00:36:59.730]over 60 Pueblo community members were curators,
- [00:37:03.450]and curated 100 historically
- [00:37:05.940]and culturally significant works,
- [00:37:08.310]they also contributed to the labels and exhibition catalogs,
- [00:37:12.000]the entire exhibition from start to finish
- [00:37:14.640]foregrounds their voices and perspectives,
- [00:37:17.490]and then there were co-curators who worked
- [00:37:20.910]at the School for Advanced Research in Santa Fe,
- [00:37:23.910]the Vilcek Foundation and The Met,
- [00:37:25.350]and then we supported them.
- [00:37:26.520]So we helped facilitate the process.
- [00:37:28.590]And that's really how I see my role.
- [00:37:30.360]I see my role as a facilitator for Native communities
- [00:37:33.450]to foreground their voices.
- [00:37:36.570]And then this is the entrance
- [00:37:38.580]to the Art of Native America exhibition in 2022,
- [00:37:44.070]and it was just after the pandemic,
- [00:37:46.260]so we installed some jingle dresses,
- [00:37:48.630]Anishinaabe jingle dresses,
- [00:37:49.740]because the jingle dress is actually a healing dress,
- [00:37:52.920]and there's a long story about how it's a healing dress.
- [00:37:55.650]And we developed programming around the healing.
- [00:38:01.050]We had a program "Sound and Healing:
- [00:38:03.180]Native American Art, Music during Pandemics",
- [00:38:05.880]because we were really focused
- [00:38:07.350]on wanting to uplift people when they came to the museum,
- [00:38:10.920]and to again, make that connection
- [00:38:13.380]between aesthetic practices, intergenerational knowledge
- [00:38:17.730]and practices, and community and healing.
- [00:38:21.120]It was really needed at the time after the pandemic.
- [00:38:24.120]And then we had programming that included Native people,
- [00:38:28.350]what they wanted to happen at the museum,
- [00:38:30.330]what they wanted to see, so they said,
- [00:38:31.897]"We want jingle dressers to come to The Met,
- [00:38:34.530]and dance the jingle dress dance."
- [00:38:36.510]And so they did, we had hundreds of people show up,
- [00:38:39.090]and these are some of the dancers and the singers.
- [00:38:42.660]And we also had a program with Dr. Brenda Child,
- [00:38:46.680]who's the premier scholar on the Ojibwe jingle dress,
- [00:38:49.950]but also Robbie Robertson.
- [00:38:52.470]And we had a conversation about sound and healing,
- [00:38:56.400]and Robbie shared stories about his childhood
- [00:38:58.620]on the Six Nations,
- [00:38:59.670]and how that was a healing process for him.
- [00:39:02.850]And this was actually Robbie's last public appearance
- [00:39:06.390]before he passed not too long after.
- [00:39:09.630]So programming, involving community,
- [00:39:12.510]this was part of an installation
- [00:39:14.130]where Native community members from all across New York
- [00:39:17.610]helped us to create the entrance
- [00:39:21.000]to our "Water Memories" exhibition.
- [00:39:22.650]So these are mirror shields that were used
- [00:39:25.380]at the Standing Rock protest,
- [00:39:28.500]and were used to protect the bodies of the water protectors,
- [00:39:31.350]but also to reflect back to the police, armed police,
- [00:39:35.040]their actions, their violence that they were engaging in.
- [00:39:38.880]We didn't wanna use the actual shields
- [00:39:40.740]that were used at Standing Rock,
- [00:39:42.150]although they were offered to us,
- [00:39:44.070]because we didn't wanna aestheticize something
- [00:39:46.680]that had been used in such an important protest,
- [00:39:50.400]and so community members showed up from all over
- [00:39:53.070]to help make some that we installed in the exhibition.
- [00:39:58.320]This is part of the "Water Memories" exhibition,
- [00:40:00.210]I'm a big proponent of showing
- [00:40:02.790]Native American art in dialogue with big hitters
- [00:40:06.480]in the American art world,
- [00:40:07.620]so what you're seeing here is contemporary artist
- [00:40:12.480]Shinnecock artist, Courtney Leonard, who works in ceramics,
- [00:40:16.050]her sculpture of whale teeth
- [00:40:18.390]with a Fritz Scholder triptych from the 90s
- [00:40:23.640]that he did when he was going through
- [00:40:25.080]a really difficult time in his life,
- [00:40:26.910]and so this is one of his only water depictions
- [00:40:30.000]that he's ever done.
- [00:40:31.560]And then we had those two works in dialogue
- [00:40:33.930]with William Merrit Chase's depiction
- [00:40:36.180]of Shinnecock Homelands on Long Island,
- [00:40:40.140]and also Arthur Dove,
- [00:40:42.720]his depiction of Long Island.
- [00:40:45.450]So placing Native artists in dialogue
- [00:40:48.930]with American artists,
- [00:40:50.970]and I think it's important to have those conversations.
- [00:40:56.520]I know I have a lot of slides, sorry.
- [00:40:57.840]This is another project, it's called "Native Perspectives",
- [00:41:00.660]and we invite Native scholars from all communities,
- [00:41:03.600]Indigenous scholars to write about the artwork at The Met,
- [00:41:07.020]and then we put their label up in the galleries,
- [00:41:10.170]and we put it on our website,
- [00:41:11.670]and we invite them to say whatever they want about the art.
- [00:41:15.480]And some stuff is really radical, other is not,
- [00:41:19.560]but we love to just really get their voices out there
- [00:41:22.620]about the artwork in general.
- [00:41:24.030]And I just wanna make it clear, everyone is compensated
- [00:41:26.550]for their time financially,
- [00:41:29.160]we do not exploit people, community members who help us,
- [00:41:32.700]they are financially compensated fully.
- [00:41:37.080]Consultation visits, working with communities
- [00:41:40.560]to understand what needs to go home,
- [00:41:43.770]what can be put on view, what should not be on view.
- [00:41:47.850]And then I would say in my own work, you know,
- [00:41:52.560]using my position at The Met to be responsible,
- [00:41:56.760]understand my responsibility for speaking out
- [00:41:59.610]when there is something that needs to be said.
- [00:42:03.120]So I've been talking too long, people are actually leaving,
- [00:42:05.670]so .... (Patricia and Margaret laugh)
- [00:42:07.320]Bye. (Patricia and Margaret laugh)
- [00:42:08.610]Thank you.
- [00:42:10.890]Yeah.
- [00:42:12.060]Stuff like, that's what's happening.
- [00:42:14.550]Yeah, it's so exciting.
- [00:42:16.500]A couple questions that came to mind.
- [00:42:18.150]First, I was so intrigued with the community collaboration,
- [00:42:22.290]the community-curated exhibition, the Pueblo one.
- [00:42:25.980]How many years did that take to organize
- [00:42:29.160]and bring to fruition?
- [00:42:31.140]We started working on "Grounded in Clay" in 2021,
- [00:42:35.517]and that's when we were approached to host the exhibition.
- [00:42:39.510]And it did not go on view until this past July.
- [00:42:46.050]It went on view, July 14th of this,
- [00:42:48.600]so this past summer it went on view.
- [00:42:50.520]So it was about a two-year-process.
- [00:42:53.130]It was a long process,
- [00:42:54.360]and many of the meetings were held over Zoom.
- [00:42:56.490]There were, you know, multiple meetings that were held,
- [00:43:00.900]like in one day we would have two different meetings,
- [00:43:03.660]so that community members, if they had to be at work,
- [00:43:06.960]they could come to the evening session, or evening meeting,
- [00:43:10.500]or we would have one in early afternoon,
- [00:43:14.550]so that, you know, those who were retired
- [00:43:17.310]could come to those sessions.
- [00:43:19.200]But it was a constant dialogue, you know,
- [00:43:23.670]just making decisions as a group,
- [00:43:26.051]what should be placed where,
- [00:43:29.460]or maybe something, how the works should be on view,
- [00:43:34.080]there was a very specific orientation
- [00:43:36.570]for a number of the pots
- [00:43:37.860]where they had what you might call a spirit line on them,
- [00:43:41.490]and the direction that had to go,
- [00:43:43.470]or the label choices, all of these things.
- [00:43:46.740]We made the intentional decision
- [00:43:49.740]to keep all museum jargon off the label,
- [00:43:54.210]so typically when you go into an exhibition,
- [00:43:56.220]there'll be like, you know,
- [00:43:57.757]"Collection of, you know, so and so",
- [00:43:59.850]or there'll be an acknowledgement of that.
- [00:44:02.130]We kept all of that, we took, kept catalog numbers,
- [00:44:04.920]everything off the labels,
- [00:44:06.300]except for the community members' voice,
- [00:44:08.820]and what they had to say about the work.
- [00:44:12.150]And it works really well.
- [00:44:14.100]And people come through the exhibit now,
- [00:44:15.900]and say, "I learned so much from reading the labels
- [00:44:19.770]that I ever have in the past."
- [00:44:22.230]And so I just think that's really testament
- [00:44:24.690]to how important it is to engage with communities,
- [00:44:28.110]and understand their perspectives about the importance
- [00:44:30.990]or meaning of an artwork.
- [00:44:35.550]I was curious to see
- [00:44:36.900]there was this Pueblo Clay Collective,
- [00:44:39.930]Pueblo Potters Collective.
- [00:44:41.250]Did that exist prior to the exhibit,
- [00:44:43.890]or did that come about in kind of the process.
- [00:44:47.130]That came about in the process,
- [00:44:48.750]because when it came time, we wrote a entire catalog
- [00:44:53.760]that has all of the works,
- [00:44:55.200]and features every community member,
- [00:44:57.810]and the works that they wrote about.
- [00:45:00.210]And when it came time to, you know,
- [00:45:03.180]when you write a catalog, you have to say
- [00:45:05.557]"Edited by so and so or written by so and so",
- [00:45:08.250]that's part of the writing process.
- [00:45:10.080]And everyone wanted to be included,
- [00:45:13.800]and nobody wanted to leave anyone out at the same time.
- [00:45:17.040]And so they said, "Well, let's come up with a name
- [00:45:19.530]for the whole group, so we're all included."
- [00:45:22.440]And they came up with Pueblo Pottery Collective.
- [00:45:25.620]And so I really love that,
- [00:45:27.030]because it was so inclusive of everyone,
- [00:45:31.020]and I just really appreciated that.
- [00:45:34.740]Yeah, so here we are,
- [00:45:37.470]we're sitting in the Great Plains Art Museum,
- [00:45:39.840]and I wonder what advice you could give us.
- [00:45:43.860]She rolled her eyes. (Margaret laughs)
- [00:45:45.450]She sighed deeply.
- [00:45:46.680]But I guess the reason I'm asking is, you know,
- [00:45:49.800]we are a museum that was founded with a collection of
- [00:45:53.910]what I would call kind of traditional western art depictions
- [00:45:57.240]of Indigenous people by non-Indigenous people,
- [00:45:59.820]and lots of things that celebrate cowboys and the pioneers,
- [00:46:03.990]and so we think a lot at the museum about, you know,
- [00:46:09.930]how should we be reinterpreting this, or ...
- [00:46:13.350]And we think a lot about acquiring
- [00:46:15.570]new, modern Indigenous art,
- [00:46:19.320]and one of the things we're doing with our Mellon Project is
- [00:46:22.380]we've been calling it a co-curated art exhibit
- [00:46:26.520]with the Otoe-Missouria Tribe,
- [00:46:30.360]but I keep thinking of lots of ideas
- [00:46:33.180]when I hear you talking about
- [00:46:35.100]this community engagement process.
- [00:46:37.560]So that's kind of why I'm asking for your advice.
- [00:46:41.880]Like what would you tell us to do
- [00:46:46.680]to wrestle with some of these issues here at our museum.
- [00:46:52.440]And maybe to give you even more time,
- [00:46:54.603](Margaret laughs)
- [00:46:56.190]what would you think are the kind of best practices
- [00:47:00.090]that we should be thinking about
- [00:47:01.710]as we take these steps forward?
- [00:47:08.910]I often get questions at talks about advice
- [00:47:12.480]and about, you know, what should our institution do,
- [00:47:15.510]and I often answer,
- [00:47:19.387]"You can't really know how an institution functions
- [00:47:22.830]unless you work there."
- [00:47:25.410]And so it's difficult for me to say, you know,
- [00:47:28.230]what you should or shouldn't do.
- [00:47:30.180]But what I would say more generally is
- [00:47:32.760]how important listening is,
- [00:47:36.240]how important it is to take the time just to listen.
- [00:47:42.120]We don't have that kind of time now
- [00:47:44.850]with technology and social media,
- [00:47:47.160]we just kinda, we get through the day,
- [00:47:49.770]we're all in like survivance mode, or survival mode.
- [00:47:54.900]And so slowing down, and listening to community members
- [00:48:00.690]as much as possible, because what's interesting
- [00:48:05.790]in a number of my experiences is I'll have questions,
- [00:48:09.000]I'll come to the, you know, conversation with a question,
- [00:48:12.420]and sooner or later, even if I haven't asked that question,
- [00:48:18.060]it comes out, or it comes out in a way that I didn't expect,
- [00:48:22.440]the answer comes out in a way that I didn't expect it to,
- [00:48:25.680]and maybe I didn't hear it right away,
- [00:48:28.380]but further down the road, like, you know,
- [00:48:31.620]a few months later or even a year later,
- [00:48:34.020]it suddenly strikes me like,
- [00:48:35.767]"Oh, that's what they were talking about."
- [00:48:37.920]Or "That's what that meant",
- [00:48:40.230]'cause it takes time to process that information.
- [00:48:43.710]It's not meant to be fast food information
- [00:48:46.530]that gives us all the answers,
- [00:48:48.780]it's meant to be a very, it's a slow process.
- [00:48:53.850]So I don't know, I guess that's what I would say.
- [00:48:58.440]And then also in regard to best practices I had,
- [00:49:01.630]well, I wanna mention this,
- [00:49:03.420]because, you know, The Met is a big target,
- [00:49:07.440]because we're on a international platform,
- [00:49:09.960]we're a world-class museum,
- [00:49:11.370]so we're kind of the big kid in, you know,
- [00:49:14.940]and so everyone likes to use The Met as the example,
- [00:49:18.210]or, you know, attack The Met.
- [00:49:21.090]And a lot of that is because they're not there every day,
- [00:49:23.490]they don't see what we're doing.
- [00:49:25.440]And recently we had an article come out about The Met,
- [00:49:29.010]I'm sure some of you read it through ProPublica,
- [00:49:33.510]and it was a very ...
- [00:49:36.930]It was just the most hurtful article, and here's why.
- [00:49:41.880]We actually worked with the reporter for over a year
- [00:49:46.470]providing for her all of the documentation
- [00:49:49.110]of all the work we've been doing with communities,
- [00:49:51.690]copies of letters, copies of correspondence, you know,
- [00:49:55.650]everything we could provide.
- [00:49:57.600]And it was very obvious she came into the museum
- [00:50:02.910]that they had an agenda,
- [00:50:04.860]and that's what they were gonna put out there
- [00:50:06.660]no matter what we shared with them,
- [00:50:08.910]no matter what we told them, and it really,
- [00:50:13.500]I hate to say it, but it made me realize
- [00:50:17.610]that the media is a business,
- [00:50:20.550]that they're not that interested
- [00:50:22.260]in telling the full story,
- [00:50:24.240]they're interested in selling a sexy story.
- [00:50:27.630]And that really, it made me sad that that had happened.
- [00:50:31.710]And so prior to that story coming out,
- [00:50:35.730]and based on my experience, our, you know,
- [00:50:37.770]our experience working with that reporter,
- [00:50:40.440]I decided I need to say what I need to say
- [00:50:43.530]about the work that we're doing, and so I wrote a piece,
- [00:50:47.580]and then "Hyperallergic" put it out there,
- [00:50:50.010]and it really addresses everything
- [00:50:52.380]that I've been talking about here today,
- [00:50:54.270]about there's a lot that you don't see behind the scenes
- [00:50:58.950]that happens with the repatriation process,
- [00:51:01.140]and it's important to have a better understanding,
- [00:51:02.970]a deeper understanding of that.
- [00:51:05.280]So what I'm trying to say is
- [00:51:07.500]in regard to your question about advice,
- [00:51:10.200]listening but also understanding your responsibility
- [00:51:14.970]for speaking out when you have that opportunity,
- [00:51:18.870]but doing so in a respectful way, not an attacking way,
- [00:51:22.530]'cause that's not gonna do anything
- [00:51:23.970]by attacking other people.
- [00:51:26.970]I don't think we're gonna find healing
- [00:51:30.150]in attacking one another.
- [00:51:32.661]It doesn't happen like that.
- [00:51:34.800]So I need to say that too.
- [00:51:39.841]We talked about questions. Oh, yeah.
- [00:51:41.610]We can answer questions,
- [00:51:42.900]but I wanted to share one last story.
- [00:51:44.700]I know you're all like, you know, ready to go,
- [00:51:46.950]but I wanted to share
- [00:51:48.330]one last story. I don't think that's true.
- [00:51:49.843]Oh, okay. I think they're all
- [00:51:50.676]riveted by you. One last story.
- [00:51:53.940]So when, in "Grounded in Clay",
- [00:51:58.560]when the pots arrived from New Mexico,
- [00:52:02.310]they came in two semi-trucks.
- [00:52:04.950]And one of the things that I saw happen
- [00:52:08.760]was a shift in my colleagues at The Met.
- [00:52:12.420]I saw my colleagues go from referring
- [00:52:15.900]to the pots as objects, you know, museum language,
- [00:52:20.190]they refer to everything as objects.
- [00:52:22.170]And I kept saying, "They're not objects.
- [00:52:26.220]Could you please use the word items or something else,
- [00:52:28.440]but just not objects?"
- [00:52:29.910]But when we started working
- [00:52:30.990]with the Pueblo Pottery Collective,
- [00:52:34.320]they explained about the pots being ancestors,
- [00:52:38.430]and the energy of the pots being alive,
- [00:52:40.830]and, you know, explaining this so openly
- [00:52:42.870]and generously to The Met staff,
- [00:52:44.670]who were all working on "Grounded in Clay."
- [00:52:47.520]And so when the pots arrived early last summer
- [00:52:52.380]in the morning, and the Sun was coming up,
- [00:52:54.480]they came in these two big semi-trucks,
- [00:52:56.430]as you can see, this is our loading dock.
- [00:52:59.730]And the Pueblo Pottery Collective shared with us,
- [00:53:04.440]you know, "This is what's gonna happen.
- [00:53:06.180]They're all in the trucks",
- [00:53:07.290]and then we said, "Well, we wanna do this the right way,
- [00:53:10.440]what do we do?"
- [00:53:11.640]And they sent two Pueblo community members
- [00:53:15.660]to The Met that morning,
- [00:53:17.970]who were gonna help welcome the pots.
- [00:53:20.610]And so as the trucks were pulling into the dock,
- [00:53:25.170]typically what you see when the loading dock is,
- [00:53:29.970]when the trucks arrive, they'll throw up, you know,
- [00:53:32.850]the back door of the semis,
- [00:53:34.830]and then immediately there's movers and handlers
- [00:53:37.680]who start carrying out these big crates
- [00:53:39.870]that are filled with artwork.
- [00:53:42.090]But in this situation, what we were told was,
- [00:53:46.747]"Do not open the doors, like, you know, open 'em up"
- [00:53:49.860]like we typically do.
- [00:53:51.367]"We're just gonna open one door a little bit,
- [00:53:54.900]and then we're gonna talk to the pots,
- [00:53:58.350]as you know, to welcome them."
- [00:54:01.140]And so a whole group of us gathered that morning to help,
- [00:54:05.520]and there were community members there,
- [00:54:07.890]and the trucks arrived, and we did exactly what they said,
- [00:54:13.260]they opened the door of one of the trucks,
- [00:54:16.020]or one of the semis a little bit,
- [00:54:17.940]and they both, the two community members went up there,
- [00:54:20.610]and they were speaking to the pots,
- [00:54:22.680]and they were whispering to the pots in Tewa.
- [00:54:25.500]And they were, you know, praying and all this,
- [00:54:28.770]and saying to the pots, you know,
- [00:54:31.530]I don't know exactly what was said,
- [00:54:32.640]but what I understand is that they were telling them
- [00:54:35.827]"It's okay to be here and you're safe here,
- [00:54:40.080]and you know, you know, please don't be frightened,
- [00:54:42.510]like you're in good hands" and all of this.
- [00:54:44.340]And then, so I just knew in that moment,
- [00:54:47.370]like things have really changed here,
- [00:54:50.880]and we did this in the right way.
- [00:54:53.070]And then we went into the gallery space
- [00:54:54.780]where the pots would be for the next year,
- [00:54:57.420]and, you know, did blessings,
- [00:54:59.220]and dropped cornmeal and all of this,
- [00:55:00.930]and it just was this really incredible moment.
- [00:55:05.610]And so you were asking like,
- [00:55:06.780]how to do things in the right way,
- [00:55:08.280]I feel like that's the answer that I could give you.
- [00:55:13.290]Yeah.
- [00:55:14.700]Yeah, thank you so much. Of course.
- [00:55:16.260]That was really,
- [00:55:17.304]really wonderful. Thank you.
- [00:55:18.690]Let's give Patricia a hand.
- [00:55:21.274](Margaret chuckles) (audience applause)
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