Not That Kind of Doctor - Perfectionism

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01/11/2024 Added

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Perfectionism - Ph.D. discussions with Nicholas Husbye and Guy Trainin. www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor and https://mediahub.unl.edu/channels/42980

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[00:00:00.816](energetic electronic music)
[00:00:10.230]I mean, potentially not. Potentially not.
[00:00:14.220]Okay, so explain to me why not?
[00:00:17.070]Because you teach. Okay.
[00:00:18.480]You encounter this all the freaking time.
[00:00:22.470]So I teach.
[00:00:23.460]So walk me through it
[00:00:25.050]because we're talking about perfectionism today,
[00:00:27.300]and I am trying to understand,
[00:00:30.390]because I don't think about myself as a perfectionist.
[00:00:34.590]I have many other challenges in my life.
[00:00:36.720]Perfectionism isn't one of them.
[00:00:39.060]I don't know that that's necessarily true.
[00:00:40.740]Okay. Actually, okay.
[00:00:42.900]So let's background here.
[00:00:45.180]Let's do a little background because-
[00:00:46.590]Let's.
[00:00:47.940]We both enjoy the Girls Gilmore.
[00:00:50.340]Yes. Right?
[00:00:51.390]Yes.
[00:00:52.223]So do you remember that episode in season four?
[00:00:56.220]Yeah. Where Rory is on her way
[00:01:00.750]to go see her ethics professor.
[00:01:02.460]Mm-hmm. And she is going
[00:01:05.160]under the guise of, "Oh, I didn't get certain things
[00:01:08.070]in my notes, can you clarify this?
[00:01:09.600]And oh, by the way, do you have my paper graded?
[00:01:11.220]Tell me all the great things that I did," right?
[00:01:13.770]Do you remember that episode? Yes, I do.
[00:01:15.080]Do you remember what happens
[00:01:16.050]when she gets to the professor's office?
[00:01:19.920]This is like trivia, "Gilmore Girls" trivia.
[00:01:21.312]Yeah. I don't know.
[00:01:22.260]I do remember that she gets the response she didn't want,
[00:01:25.710]but I don't- Right, which was,
[00:01:28.177]"Oof, this is not great.
[00:01:30.180]This is a D paper." Yeah.
[00:01:31.807]"Maybe you should drop a class."
[00:01:34.980]Yes.
[00:01:36.480]An advice I have given many times by the way. (laughs)
[00:01:39.102]And my hypothesis, in the Amy Sherman-Palladino universe,
[00:01:44.520]is that that is the moment where like,
[00:01:47.010]Rory's life kinda shatters.
[00:01:49.800]Mm-hmm, yes. Right?
[00:01:51.180]Because she's been an A student all along.
[00:01:54.180]Well, she's been...
[00:01:58.140]She hasn't necessarily been challenged, right?
[00:02:00.263]Mm-hmm, yeah. In terms of everything.
[00:02:02.670]See, there's also certain things
[00:02:04.350]that don't make sense about that.
[00:02:05.311]Yeah, yeah, yeah. About that series.
[00:02:06.570]But like, the fact that she's the valedictorian
[00:02:08.760]over Paris Geller at Chilton.
[00:02:10.230]What? No, that should not have happened.
[00:02:13.448](laughs) Antisemitism.
[00:02:15.810]It could be, it could very well be,
[00:02:18.960]but that also never made sense.
[00:02:20.400]Like, these are things now that I re-watch it,
[00:02:22.260]I'm like, "What is going on?"
[00:02:24.480]But what is so interesting about Rory Gilmore,
[00:02:26.640]and the reason that we're starting with her is,
[00:02:32.310]I have got, right now, students
[00:02:36.480]who show up in Stars Hollow Connecticut sweatshirts.
[00:02:40.050]Wow.
[00:02:41.130]So, like, and "Gilmore Girls," in a way,
[00:02:43.680]is like this fascinating show about the education of a girl,
[00:02:48.690]but it's also had these cultural impacts on like,
[00:02:54.180]what achievement looks like and what's happening.
[00:02:56.760]And Rory is kind of this embodiment of perfection that,
[00:03:03.780]or an idea of perfection that you have probably seen
[00:03:07.650]in your students as well as I have seen in my students.
[00:03:10.840]Yeah. I do see it in my students, definitely.
[00:03:14.190]And I see it sometimes in faculty members,
[00:03:16.200]especially as department chair.
[00:03:17.580]I've seen it with faculty members
[00:03:19.140]who have the same perception of themselves
[00:03:22.050]and that way of thinking.
[00:03:24.240]So if there's any feedback that says,
[00:03:26.467]"Well, you could get better at something,"
[00:03:28.800]immediately gets a reaction of,
[00:03:30.907]"But I've always been a 4.0 student,"
[00:03:33.450]which is, you know, difficult to hear from somebody
[00:03:38.010]who's been teaching at a university for a while.
[00:03:42.480]Right, but that doesn't exclude us from like-
[00:03:44.340]No, I think that we're all...
[00:03:46.110]So, what you're saying is,
[00:03:47.557]"I've seen it through my students, that perfectionism."
[00:03:49.613]Mm-hmm. Okay. That I will do.
[00:03:52.020]And have you found yourself saying something
[00:03:55.200]along the lines of, "Oh, their perfectionism
[00:03:57.630]is really getting in the way of their learning"?
[00:03:59.670]Absolutely.
[00:04:00.780]And I hear that all the time, right?
[00:04:02.820]So- Yeah.
[00:04:04.260]As we're thinking about how pervasive perfectionism is
[00:04:10.110]within our student body,
[00:04:11.130]and we're thinking about, you know, the massive levels
[00:04:15.659]of anxiety and depression
[00:04:18.090]that our students are thinking about
[00:04:19.950]or are experiencing, right?
[00:04:22.320]There's this notion of, if we're truly student-centered,
[00:04:27.930]we're truly student-centered, whether we're faculty
[00:04:31.290]or graduate students who are teaching undergraduates
[00:04:34.650]or undergraduates ourselves, like,
[00:04:38.040]how do we position perfection,
[00:04:45.210]not as an enemy for learning,
[00:04:47.370]but how do we negotiate some ways around that
[00:04:50.250]so that we can capitalize that?
[00:04:51.480]Because if we're saying things like,
[00:04:54.127]"Oh, that gets in the way of their learning,"
[00:04:57.270]if that's a core piece of their identity,
[00:04:59.490]we're creating this oppositional relationship with them.
[00:05:03.210]Yes. Right?
[00:05:04.230]Very much so.
[00:05:05.160]And so we're not embracing our students
[00:05:08.880]in reasonable ways within our training.
[00:05:11.220]We are not counselors.
[00:05:12.150]I want to be clear about that from the onset.
[00:05:20.544]We really need to think through ways to leverage
[00:05:26.100]and navigate perfectionism in our students
[00:05:29.370]to support their learning.
[00:05:30.540]Because we're seeing,
[00:05:31.800]we are seeing these increased levels of anxiety.
[00:05:34.020]We are seeing these increased levels of depression,
[00:05:36.660]and it's connected to some of this zeitgeist around,
[00:05:42.360]this is what perfection is, this is how this works.
[00:05:45.930]so today on "Not That Kind of Doctor,"
[00:05:48.829]we're not gonna be that kind of doctor.
[00:05:50.550]We're gonna talk about perfectionism in students,
[00:05:54.600]impacts on teaching from a teacher education perspective
[00:05:59.460]because I'm Nick Husbye, Associate Professor
[00:06:02.250]of Elementary Literacy Education here at UNL.
[00:06:05.250]And I'm Guy Trainin, Professor of Education here at UNL.
[00:06:08.580]And we are "Not That Kind of Doctor,"
[00:06:10.530]not that kind of psych.
[00:06:11.374]I'm not a psych doctor. I'm not a psychologist.
[00:06:14.580]I'm not a counselor, but I am someone
[00:06:18.660]who is really committed
[00:06:23.460]to connecting with my students,
[00:06:26.430]helping my students build knowledge about teaching reading.
[00:06:29.580]And this whole project was really coming out of
[00:06:35.400]kind of a bias audit for myself, where I kept thinking,
[00:06:40.267]"Oh, if I could just get my students
[00:06:41.670]to stop being so perfectionistic."
[00:06:44.430]And what kind of, again, that antagonistic role in my head.
[00:06:50.790]And what I started thinking about was,
[00:06:53.737]"What would happen if I embraced that perfectionism?
[00:06:58.920]If I allowed my students to show up to my class
[00:07:01.350]as whole people, what would that look like?"
[00:07:05.370]And I didn't quite have an understanding of perfectionism.
[00:07:10.200]It was very much a very flat kind of-
[00:07:13.470]Just a general idea. Right.
[00:07:15.630]And it's actually much more complex than that.
[00:07:20.192]And in order to understand some of those struggles,
[00:07:27.450]we have to develop a more nuanced understanding
[00:07:30.690]of how perfectionism manifests.
[00:07:33.960]Like I said before, I was working
[00:07:35.100]on a lot of knowledge building reading this summer,
[00:07:38.160]and one of the things that kept coming up
[00:07:39.840]was this notion of perfectionism.
[00:07:45.660]And I keep thinking back to students who,
[00:07:50.700]you know, "How do I get all my points?
[00:07:52.560]How do I score on this test exactly what I want?"
[00:07:58.110]And digging into some of that research,
[00:08:03.660]I found some pretty interesting things.
[00:08:05.190]So, I would love to know a little bit
[00:08:06.930]about how you've experienced student manifestations
[00:08:10.050]of perfectionism in your classes thus far.
[00:08:12.810]So that is, first of all, you're right.
[00:08:17.497]I was thinking about perfectionism
[00:08:19.380]from a personal perspective.
[00:08:22.150]From the challenge when we're working with students,
[00:08:24.300]I see that very often.
[00:08:25.440]I see that in graduate students wanting the paper
[00:08:28.620]to be perfect and struggling with it until the last minute,
[00:08:32.670]and then handing in or not handing in what they have.
[00:08:35.850]And that's always a struggle to say,
[00:08:39.367]"You know, this has gotta be good enough."
[00:08:42.390]So that conversation about good enough
[00:08:44.850]happens quite often when we need...
[00:08:47.640]And we have, the advantage and disadvantage of education,
[00:08:50.880]and becoming a professional is, we always have deadlines.
[00:08:54.300]We have deadlines for conferences.
[00:08:55.860]Something comes up and it's suddenly on our radar.
[00:08:57.990]We haven't seen it, but there's an opportunity
[00:09:00.090]to submit a paper to this, but we have a week.
[00:09:03.000]You have only a week.
[00:09:03.990]It's never going to be perfect in a week
[00:09:05.820]unless you have something ready.
[00:09:07.530]So, is it going to be close enough knowing that
[00:09:10.740]in any of these opportunities, there are chances to redo.
[00:09:14.880]And with my undergraduate students, I've seen this push
[00:09:19.530]about grades, about points, about figuring out,
[00:09:24.480]and it's really interesting because that point system,
[00:09:29.220]whatever you have in your class,
[00:09:31.470]becomes problematic in two ways.
[00:09:32.970]One is the perfectionism. I need to get all the points.
[00:09:35.880]How do I get all the points? Even if-
[00:09:38.310]They're like Pokemon. They gotta catch 'em all.
[00:09:39.360]Yeah, yeah, and it's like, I mean,
[00:09:42.030]I have 1,500 points in my class.
[00:09:45.060]You have 1,450. Those last 50 really do not matter.
[00:09:50.160]You are doing just fine. Can we let it rest?
[00:09:53.970]And that's been a problem that,
[00:09:56.670]that discussion that is really, there's a point
[00:09:59.490]where you become really tired of it.
[00:10:01.710]There's a danger also of defensive grading.
[00:10:03.840]You know, some students will come to you about three points,
[00:10:06.900]and I rarely have used that, but I've seen instructors,
[00:10:13.680]especially instructors who feel less confident,
[00:10:16.890]if they're graduate students
[00:10:18.180]or they're adjuncts that are coming for one semester or two,
[00:10:21.358]they tend to do that more often.
[00:10:23.838]They're like, "Do I wanna have an argument with the student?
[00:10:26.190]No, I don't. Here's an A."
[00:10:28.050]And so that's always in the background from my,
[00:10:32.790]especially in my administrative roles.
[00:10:35.070]I've had people tell me,
[00:10:35.977]"I don't feel confident in giving a student a B."
[00:10:39.930]We're not talking about failing a student.
[00:10:41.700]We're talking about giving a student a B.
[00:10:43.740]So that's been a struggle to say,
[00:10:45.307]"No, you can and you should."
[00:10:47.446]So there's the discussion with the students.
[00:10:49.560]There's the discussion with other instructors.
[00:10:51.552]And there's the, "Tell us exactly what you want to see
[00:10:55.110]in an assignment" that can be really frustrating
[00:10:58.680]because there's a point where that assignment
[00:11:00.510]becomes fill in the blanks, which is not what I want.
[00:11:03.750]I want you to think. I want you to create.
[00:11:06.030]I want you to work through a problem.
[00:11:08.550]And that's going to be a little bit ambiguous
[00:11:10.470]until you work through the problem.
[00:11:12.180]I can't give you the words for the solution without numbers
[00:11:16.260]or like keywords and do it in that style.
[00:11:20.010]So that's been a struggle.
[00:11:23.370]And I had multiple, I have a set of solutions
[00:11:28.110]to try and accommodate that, but they're very imperfect,
[00:11:32.820]and every semester it's somewhat a new thing.
[00:11:37.170]And sometimes because our students, this is the first time
[00:11:41.820]that they're being asked to really work through it.
[00:11:44.518]And we do that as a discussion
[00:11:47.730]instead of that feeling that arbitrarily I have decided
[00:11:53.040]to undo everything, or I arbitrarily have decided
[00:11:55.890]that they get this many points and that's it.
[00:11:57.810]Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, so...
[00:12:01.920]That was long. Sorry.
[00:12:03.900]Well, no, but I asked and you responded.
[00:12:06.480]So thanks, thanks for participating. I appreciate it.
[00:12:09.990]Well, and so, okay.
[00:12:11.880]So, let's talk through two different types of perfectionism.
[00:12:15.897]All right. There's multiple types.
[00:12:17.670]There's kind of a taxonomy. Yeah, correct.
[00:12:19.140]But the two big types of perfectionism
[00:12:23.760]are adaptive perfectionism.
[00:12:27.270]And this is like, the best-case scenario.
[00:12:31.410]So you said earlier,
[00:12:32.377]"I don't think of myself as perfectionist."
[00:12:34.018]I think you actually kind of are a perfectionist
[00:12:37.770]because when you're an adaptive perfectionist,
[00:12:39.960]if you're thinking about, what does a perfectionist want?
[00:12:44.310]Flawless performance.
[00:12:46.500]Not really. Well, okay.
[00:12:49.560]A perfectionist is really,
[00:12:51.600]if you step back and think about it,
[00:12:53.760]working toward a more equitable,
[00:13:00.750]stable, joyful version of the world for them,
[00:13:05.820]whatever that looks like.
[00:13:09.180]That is a very healthy way to think about it.
[00:13:11.580]I don't know if most people
[00:13:14.070]who calls themselves perfectionist are in that space.
[00:13:17.460]Right, well, because...
[00:13:19.883]We'll talk about the second type in a minute.
[00:13:22.140]But if we think about even people
[00:13:26.490]who get bogged down in all these details,
[00:13:30.000]like, that's what they're working toward.
[00:13:31.470]They're working toward this Rory Gilmore-esque,
[00:13:34.050]I live in Connecticut, and I go to Yale and-
[00:13:36.720]Yeah.
[00:13:37.553]They're working toward this like,
[00:13:41.610]scripted kinda Hollywood life, right?
[00:13:46.380]If you have an adaptive perfectionist,
[00:13:48.510]an adaptive perfectionist is someone
[00:13:50.730]who would consider themselves whole, fairly whole.
[00:13:55.800]Yeah.
[00:13:56.633]And what they're engaged in is not necessarily,
[00:14:03.270]oh, I have to get all the points on this.
[00:14:05.040]It's, I'm working toward this goal,
[00:14:07.704]and the perfection is in my constant striving to get there.
[00:14:12.750]It's in process knowing that they may never get
[00:14:17.970]to that place where everything is lined up,
[00:14:21.780]but the pleasure for them is in the working towards it.
[00:14:28.648]And I see that fitting with some of your behavior.
[00:14:31.596]All right.
[00:14:33.120]You're always working towards solutions.
[00:14:34.890]You're always trying to tinker and think things through.
[00:14:36.960]Yeah. And it feels like
[00:14:37.920]the process is of interest to you.
[00:14:40.950]Mm-hmm, for sure. Now, that's not typically
[00:14:44.670]how we talk about perfection. No, it isn't.
[00:14:47.610]We tend to talk about perfection
[00:14:48.810]in terms of maladaptation.
[00:14:51.394]And maladaptive perfectionists
[00:14:53.147]are coming to any given task feeling incomplete.
[00:14:58.500]They're coming into any given task
[00:15:00.780]feeling like they are broken
[00:15:06.060]or are missing some inherent quality.
[00:15:10.980]And the majority of their energy
[00:15:15.570]is spent trying to conceal that,
[00:15:19.530]trying to hide that, trying to overcompensate for that,
[00:15:26.112]which you can see gets kind of in the way
[00:15:29.700]of any real substantial kinds of development.
[00:15:37.471]So, when you're thinking about perfectionism,
[00:15:42.570]it's important to separate those two things out, right?
[00:15:46.560]Like, there's the... Yeah.
[00:15:49.530]There's the student who may come to you and say,
[00:15:53.557]"Hey, I want to talk about these three points."
[00:15:56.188]Mm-hmm.
[00:15:57.021]And what they're actually saying is,
[00:16:01.567]"I thought I nailed this rubric criteria,
[00:16:05.220]but apparently I didn't.
[00:16:06.060]Can you talk me through that?
[00:16:07.170]I wanna know how to get better,"
[00:16:08.760]versus, "I did this, give me my three points."
[00:16:11.640]There's a difference in how those two things
[00:16:14.070]are approached there. Mm-hmm.
[00:16:16.620]So, by thinking through and about,
[00:16:21.270]one, the potential of embracing perfectionism
[00:16:24.570]within my classroom, my coursework, other people,
[00:16:29.370]that's allowed me to think about how I approach students
[00:16:32.610]in slightly different ways.
[00:16:35.160]But this is kind of new to you.
[00:16:36.330]So, as you're thinking about adaptive versus maladaptive,
[00:16:40.067]how you doing, how you going?
[00:16:43.205]The maladaptive is the problem.
[00:16:45.690]Oh, I mean, it's the one that we-
[00:16:46.920]It's in the word. (laughs)
[00:16:47.859]It's the one that we encounter all the time.
[00:16:49.713]Yes. Right?
[00:16:50.546]And if you're a maladaptive perfectionist,
[00:16:53.610]that leads to a whole variety,
[00:16:55.890]a whole host of different kind of manifestations.
[00:17:01.890]And part of that is extreme procrastination.
[00:17:05.940]Mm-hmm, yeah. Right?
[00:17:06.960]Like, students who just cannot get started.
[00:17:11.130]And the reason that they can't get started
[00:17:15.000]is because they're automatically terrified of failure.
[00:17:20.733]Yeah.
[00:17:21.810]And so they're never going to be able
[00:17:25.290]to do that task well enough
[00:17:29.460]to the standards that they have set for themselves.
[00:17:33.210]Or that they feel others have set.
[00:17:35.040]Or that they feel that others have set for themselves.
[00:17:37.140]But in reality, oftentimes it's more stuff,
[00:17:42.150]the perceived perception
[00:17:43.920]of what others have said. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:45.837]Absolutely, I've seen that with my kids, even.
[00:17:48.990]I do want to come back to that idea of things
[00:17:53.790]that they've set for themselves.
[00:17:55.090]Yeah. Or things that other people,
[00:17:56.850]standards that other people have set for them.
[00:17:58.770]Yeah. Right? That they don't...
[00:18:00.090]So this procrastination becomes debilitating.
[00:18:07.500]Mm-hmm.
[00:18:08.340]And I have seen an increase of this
[00:18:12.270]in my student population. Absolutely.
[00:18:14.070]And we actually have evidence that in general,
[00:18:17.412]in younger people over the last 20 to 30 years,
[00:18:21.150]there's been a growth in the number of people
[00:18:24.341]who have that worldview,
[00:18:25.500]so it's not just our observations in our classrooms,
[00:18:28.440]but it's really something
[00:18:29.850]that is permeating society in general.
[00:18:33.840]And then you also get conversations
[00:18:36.030]with similar maladaptive perfectionists
[00:18:38.850]around things like points
[00:18:40.830]where it's not actually connected to the learning.
[00:18:43.200]It is about the points, right?
[00:18:46.140]So these are some pretty potentially damaging behaviors
[00:18:54.720]that students can partake in.
[00:18:57.750]And once, for myself, once I've been able to separate
[00:19:02.790]and kind of think through and differentiate
[00:19:04.620]between these two kinds of perfection,
[00:19:07.890]it gives me, I can separate that student
[00:19:12.450]who is trying to understand, how do I get better?
[00:19:17.580]Because that's part of the striving,
[00:19:20.130]and who is not arguing for points
[00:19:28.320]for the sake of arguing for points,
[00:19:29.970]but are really working through
[00:19:33.900]some really drastic things in their head
[00:19:36.330]around their self-perception,
[00:19:37.967]around their critical inner voice.
[00:19:42.990]And that has made all the difference this semester.
[00:19:46.770]Yeah, when I think about it, I think about a few things.
[00:19:53.520]And one is, it is possible to shift quite a few students
[00:19:57.900]to more towards the learning throughout the conversation.
[00:20:02.100]That requires trust.
[00:20:03.090]That requires an organized system
[00:20:06.210]where there's a discussion from which everything starts.
[00:20:13.170]I am a little bit worried when we have these discussions
[00:20:17.580]and we have some students who are about points that,
[00:20:20.820]when it becomes clear to them
[00:20:22.380]that the discussion will be about learning, they disengage.
[00:20:25.680]They're like, "I'm not gonna...
[00:20:26.820]It feels like I'm not gonna get my points. I'm out."
[00:20:29.580]So there are some students like that,
[00:20:31.770]and I worry a little bit about that.
[00:20:33.960]I think it's still worth seizing the opportunity.
[00:20:36.240]We are going to seize the opportunity
[00:20:37.800]and we're going to have as many conversations as possible.
[00:20:41.040]The second piece that I think is really important,
[00:20:42.750]especially in what we do,
[00:20:43.650]this is where the teacher education part comes in.
[00:20:45.960]And that is, they're going to have students,
[00:20:47.970]and they're likely to do two things.
[00:20:49.980]One is, they might project their maladaptive perfectionism
[00:20:54.750]into their students, perpetuating the problem,
[00:20:57.690]which is something to talk about.
[00:20:59.720]So they at least try to think about,
[00:21:03.360]how do I structure my classroom
[00:21:05.010]so that doesn't become the goal
[00:21:07.380]so it's not just about accumulating enough points.
[00:21:10.650]It's about learning, it's about joy, it's about growing.
[00:21:15.300]So that growth mindset piece has to be there.
[00:21:17.820]So, it's not just about them.
[00:21:19.590]When we're working with them, we're also working
[00:21:21.840]with a generation of students they will have.
[00:21:24.330]And so making it explicit and bringing it out
[00:21:28.500]and maybe even calling it out when it needs to be,
[00:21:31.260]not in front of everybody, but in a one-to-one
[00:21:34.410]or a small group conversation would be helpful
[00:21:37.800]because we have to make them conscious.
[00:21:39.570]If not, they are likely to transfer all of these feelings
[00:21:43.320]to some, or maybe even all of their students.
[00:21:46.200]Disregarding some students who are not striving.
[00:21:49.560]I always have a few students in my classrooms
[00:21:51.780]that can figure out, what's the bare minimum
[00:21:53.670]to get whatever grade they're okay with,
[00:21:55.980]and they will perform to that level.
[00:21:58.050]And I kind of, I have a love-hate relationship with that
[00:22:01.440]because I love the fact that somebody has sat
[00:22:03.450]and figured that out and is like, "This is what I need to do
[00:22:06.690]and it's gonna be good enough."
[00:22:08.250]But there's a point of me that says,
[00:22:09.967]"You want to be a teacher.
[00:22:11.280]You should strive a little bit more than for a B minus."
[00:22:14.490]Oh, and that's your maladaptive perfectionism right there.
[00:22:17.164](laughs) Yes. Yes, I will own that one.
[00:22:21.145]So-
[00:22:21.978]It's a struggle. So there's a moment-
[00:22:23.597]It is. Where I'm like...
[00:22:25.080]But then I go, "Well, you got a B minus.
[00:22:27.150]I gave you what you deserve.
[00:22:28.470]This is what you know and we will move on."
[00:22:31.020]So, and if we change that verb from deserved
[00:22:33.403]to earned. To earned, yes.
[00:22:36.120]Definitely, yes. Right? And that's...
[00:22:38.850]So as we move into like, okay,
[00:22:40.650]so we've got maladaptive perfectionism
[00:22:43.830]and adaptive perfectionism.
[00:22:45.060]Now, what does that mean for us as teachers?
[00:22:47.550]That really highlights some of the structural stuff
[00:22:52.050]that we as instructors can do to help shift our students.
[00:22:57.630]Mm-hmm. Right?
[00:22:58.620]Like that notion of, what is enough?
[00:23:03.090]Yes. Right?
[00:23:04.290]So like that idea of, oh, I need you to know more.
[00:23:07.350]There's always more. There's always more.
[00:23:09.570]Yes. But this is the basic.
[00:23:13.140]This is what I need you to know at ground level for myself
[00:23:17.340]in order to get you to teach a kid how to read.
[00:23:21.570]Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:22.650]And anything above this is gravy.
[00:23:24.247]Is gravy, yeah. But this is the basic level.
[00:23:28.140]This is where I need you operating.
[00:23:30.180]Yeah.
[00:23:31.290]And that's B work.
[00:23:34.590]Yeah, absolutely. You know?
[00:23:35.970]And B work is time consuming. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:40.050]And I'm very clear about that.
[00:23:41.550]Yeah. Like, one of the things
[00:23:43.230]that we can do to really help maladaptive perfectionists
[00:23:49.440]in our coursework is to provide really clear objectives.
[00:23:55.680]This is what I need you to do.
[00:23:58.110]And this is the level at which I need you to do it.
[00:24:01.650]Mm-hmm, yeah. If you go over that, great,
[00:24:04.710]but this is where I need you to be.
[00:24:07.260]And I'm gonna ask you to do some really tough stuff.
[00:24:11.106]This is where I need you to be.
[00:24:13.530]And so it's that,
[00:24:20.850]oh, I want you to know more, right?
[00:24:22.600]Yeah. There's always more, yeah.
[00:24:24.357]And there's invitations for that.
[00:24:26.310]But there's the shift for myself around,
[00:24:31.290]I don't expect you to do that.
[00:24:32.820]This is my expectation.
[00:24:34.230]This is what I need you to be by the time we're done.
[00:24:38.820]And if that's where we get,
[00:24:40.380]I'm really, really happy with it.
[00:24:42.120]And so, and let me pivot that a little bit
[00:24:48.362]to put it in action, in an action orientation
[00:24:51.480]for graduate students or junior faculty.
[00:24:55.290]If you come to a place and you're being asked
[00:24:57.720]to teach a class that has already been taught
[00:25:00.180]and you are receiving a syllabus from somebody else,
[00:25:03.950]as an example, or as, this is what you should be doing,
[00:25:07.470]you should be asking these questions.
[00:25:09.270]Is it clear here? What is that work?
[00:25:13.050]How is it judged? What are the things that they must know?
[00:25:17.160]And if it's not there, ask questions or define it yourself
[00:25:21.780]because you have control over your syllabus.
[00:25:23.550]Not everybody else.
[00:25:24.570]Definitely not when you're a graduate student
[00:25:26.490]or a junior faculty.
[00:25:27.810]You don't want take on that task for everybody.
[00:25:30.090]You want to take that on for yourself
[00:25:32.100]because that clarity with students
[00:25:33.720]will prevent a lot of friction.
[00:25:35.220]The more clear you are, the more like,
[00:25:37.350]yes, maybe I didn't get the grade I wanted,
[00:25:41.010]but I got the grade I earned.
[00:25:42.870]And it was clear from the beginning what that is.
[00:25:46.800]Where we get the most friction with students
[00:25:49.470]and the most dissatisfied students
[00:25:51.300]is when there isn't clarity and then they feel surprised.
[00:25:54.780]That's when most of that negative friction happens.
[00:25:58.500]I've seen it very often working with graduate students
[00:26:00.897]who are teaching for the first few times,
[00:26:03.083]and it's not exactly their syllabus.
[00:26:06.510]And that's what you want to clarify very early on.
[00:26:09.360]Because when it's ambiguous, it's going to be very hard
[00:26:13.680]to have the hard conversations with students.
[00:26:15.600]And that's where defensive grading sometimes comes in.
[00:26:18.120]They're like, "You know what, it's not clear.
[00:26:19.950]I understand you're upset.
[00:26:21.210]I'm just gonna give you the grade and I'm going to move on,"
[00:26:24.210]or I'm gonna fight with you.
[00:26:25.500]Either way, it's unpleasant.
[00:26:27.390]Either way, it feels like somehow something has failed.
[00:26:30.930]And it has because there wasn't enough clarity for students
[00:26:34.200]to act on, especially our students in teacher education.
[00:26:38.310]They are striving, for the most part,
[00:26:40.830]they are adaptive or maladaptive perfectionists.
[00:26:44.220]They really want to do good job.
[00:26:46.860]Our problem is not the people.
[00:26:49.440]I think my startling realization that a few students
[00:26:52.140]are gaming the points from the other side
[00:26:54.420]is that it's so rare that when you see it, it sticks out.
[00:26:58.230]I don't have a lot of students like that.
[00:26:59.820]Yeah, well, and those are non-perfectionists, right?
[00:27:03.090]Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:03.930]And there's certain strengths-
[00:27:04.763]They're like, "Good enough." Or certain weaknesses there,
[00:27:06.327]but that's not the majority of students that we see.
[00:27:08.547]No, not by a long shot.
[00:27:10.020]But I think you highlight a really important part
[00:27:15.060]of just preemptively, before your course even begins,
[00:27:19.836]how you can think about navigating what you know is coming.
[00:27:25.140]Yes. Right?
[00:27:26.070]And switching out certain terminology.
[00:27:29.910]Like, one of the best things that you can do,
[00:27:31.573]and this is all throughout the literature,
[00:27:33.390]is helping students develop a growth mindset for themselves
[00:27:38.760]and be open to alternative variations
[00:27:45.270]in what success can look like for them.
[00:27:47.250]Mm-hmm. Right?
[00:27:49.170]And I've really been working on shifting my own language
[00:27:55.650]around how I talk about my students.
[00:27:57.210]Like, I don't want you to be the best.
[00:27:58.800]I want you to be well-prepared.
[00:28:00.240]Mm-hmm, yes.
[00:28:01.530]And that shifts some expectations 'cause best is not...
[00:28:05.490]What does that mean, right? Yeah.
[00:28:07.140]And it's this one pinnacle.
[00:28:11.400]Like, it's not very well-developed versus,
[00:28:13.470]I know what a well-prepared reading teacher looks like.
[00:28:17.310]I know what the content knowledge looks like.
[00:28:19.080]I know what the practices look like. I can teach that.
[00:28:23.130]And not only can I teach that, but I can provide that
[00:28:27.150]as an accessible objective to my students.
[00:28:31.110]They know what that looks like through my teaching,
[00:28:35.550]through their experiences in coursework,
[00:28:37.350]and we can talk through that.
[00:28:40.200]So, so much of it has been about creating opportunities
[00:28:45.780]for talk around envisioning themselves as engaging in growth
[00:28:53.460]and also trying to get rid of punitive language.
[00:28:58.680]Yeah. Right?
[00:28:59.940]Like, "Oh, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this."
[00:29:03.457]"This is what you do." Yes.
[00:29:05.190]Here's some pathways.
[00:29:06.240]Ultimately, my students as undergrads are adults.
[00:29:09.990]Here's multiple pathways.
[00:29:12.060]Here's what the end result needs to be.
[00:29:13.470]This is the objective.
[00:29:15.300]This is how you show that you meet the objective.
[00:29:18.300]You can come at it in a couple of different ways.
[00:29:22.710]Let me be clear about that, right?
[00:29:24.990]And each of those ways is fairly well delineated.
[00:29:31.011]And one of the traps,
[00:29:33.300]and the literature about perfectionism talks about this,
[00:29:36.989]is that it can lead to a focus on points,
[00:29:42.390]to a focus on the things that are measurable.
[00:29:47.190]And some things are much easier to measure than others.
[00:29:50.640]That's why tests and quizzes
[00:29:52.530]can become a proxy for everything,
[00:29:54.870]even though they might not be everything.
[00:29:56.940]That performance in a lesson you teach
[00:29:59.220]is considerably squishier than points
[00:30:01.680]on a short-answer test.
[00:30:05.220]Did you get it? Did you get the concept?
[00:30:06.750]Were you able to explain the concept or not?
[00:30:09.300]Were you able to come with the right solution or not?
[00:30:11.550]But teaching a lesson has so many elements
[00:30:13.706]that it feels squishier.
[00:30:15.270]I mean, we can make it fairly concrete, I think.
[00:30:18.060]And again, thinking about,
[00:30:20.070]what are the things you must know how to do?
[00:30:22.800]Everything else is gravy.
[00:30:24.300]You can be fantastic and that's good for you,
[00:30:27.330]but we are aiming to make you a capable teacher
[00:30:30.390]who can keep on learning
[00:30:31.680]because nobody is ready the minute they exit the program.
[00:30:35.310]Everybody is ready for everything five to seven years later.
[00:30:39.780]We know that for a fact.
[00:30:41.010]The expert teacher that,
[00:30:42.240]going back to "The Expert Pedagogue" by Berliner,
[00:30:46.710]it takes time, and you need all of that experience.
[00:30:49.350]And there's no way to get that experience
[00:30:51.030]before you have experience, right?
[00:30:53.190]You have to actually be in the classroom and enact
[00:30:55.620]and do all of these wonderful things.
[00:30:57.570]And so what we're preparing you is to have enough knowledge,
[00:31:01.590]enough skill, enough strategies to be able to execute
[00:31:06.000]at a reasonable level early and to keep on learning.
[00:31:08.700]And that growth in learning,
[00:31:10.050]that growth mindset is critical here.
[00:31:12.180]Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, totally.
[00:31:13.410]And there's certain things that,
[00:31:15.532]so if we look at concrete strategies,
[00:31:17.880]'cause you know I like a good, concrete strategy.
[00:31:20.850]Yeah, absolutely, we all need something to do
[00:31:23.250]and not just to talk about.
[00:31:24.870]There's a couple of things
[00:31:26.160]that I've been playing around with this semester
[00:31:29.256]that have really changed the tenor of my classroom.
[00:31:31.710]Yeah. And one of them is,
[00:31:33.530]so I've moved to exams, I've moved to quizzes.
[00:31:37.170]We still do the occasional lesson plan.
[00:31:42.030]Not as many of them. Okay, yeah.
[00:31:45.090]But we still do them, and so there's this back and forth
[00:31:49.200]between kind of more quantitative
[00:31:51.000]and more qualitative pieces where the exams and quizzes
[00:31:55.560]are really getting at, how well do they know content
[00:32:00.060]versus lesson plans or application of that content?
[00:32:03.990]And so one of the things that I've done
[00:32:08.940]has been to institute an item analysis after every exam,
[00:32:14.700]so I don't do this for quizzes,
[00:32:15.810]but I do it for my first two exams.
[00:32:19.380]And the final, they don't have the chance to do this.
[00:32:22.320]But what it does is, when they finish their exam,
[00:32:27.750]when I post their grade to Canvas,
[00:32:29.640]I include a Google Doc link
[00:32:32.160]to every question that they got incorrect.
[00:32:37.620]And this is after I've gone through
[00:32:38.730]and checked for validity.
[00:32:39.690]There's always one or two questions where I'm like,
[00:32:41.710]"Ugh, that was just a bad question.
[00:32:42.750]Everyone's getting that point.
[00:32:44.280]Ugh, that was another bad question.
[00:32:45.390]Everyone's getting that point."
[00:32:46.530]So once I've controlled for that, like, my ineptitude.
[00:32:49.740]Yeah, which is important. Which is gonna happen.
[00:32:51.930]Especially if you adapt somebody else's,
[00:32:53.870]for example, just to say, the curriculum makers,
[00:32:57.330]those who publish the books
[00:32:58.530]often have sets of questions that come.
[00:33:01.530]They are not always good questions.
[00:33:03.108]Nope.
[00:33:03.941]I've had really bad experiences with those assessments.
[00:33:07.410]So I've used them and I actually had to ax whole quizzes
[00:33:10.380]and I'm like, "Okay, I need to rethink this
[00:33:12.420]because the item analysis said,
[00:33:14.483]'These are just bad questions.'"
[00:33:16.080]And then I went back and did the reread and I went,
[00:33:20.317]"Yeah, that is a confusing..." Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:22.980]And it's okay. Yeah.
[00:33:24.990]Like, one, in class, I was very clear and upfront,
[00:33:29.647]"Look, these are the questions that I nixed.
[00:33:34.530]Tell me why you think I nixed them."
[00:33:37.020]And that gives them another opportunity to one,
[00:33:39.090]see that I am growing as a professional as well.
[00:33:42.120]Like, it's not perfect.
[00:33:44.190]And also gives them a chance to talk through content.
[00:33:47.340]Like, what do you think I was trying to get at
[00:33:49.740]and what does this actually get at?
[00:33:50.880]'Cause there was a mismatch.
[00:33:52.290]Because I've drafted, I think I'm up to like 872 questions
[00:33:56.850]for this course this semester. Whew! Wow.
[00:33:59.670]But, I take this as kind of a feather in my hat.
[00:34:04.530]I've only had maybe six questions across the two exams
[00:34:08.760]that we've had so far that bombed
[00:34:11.670]so that's a fairly good, out of 250 questions,
[00:34:16.050]that's not a bad rate. Yeah, that's pretty good.
[00:34:17.250]Yeah. I'm feeling pretty good
[00:34:18.360]about that, but they do take a lot of time.
[00:34:20.040]So anyway, after they're done with their exam,
[00:34:24.330]I give them the opportunity to do an item analysis.
[00:34:26.850]And within this item analysis, and this is,
[00:34:29.250]it's interesting that this is also just good teaching.
[00:34:32.220]Yeah.
[00:34:34.470]In their item analysis, they get a copy of every question.
[00:34:37.410]They get the correct response there,
[00:34:42.510]and they also get their response.
[00:34:44.460]And so what I ask them to do is,
[00:34:46.761]one, identify, what kind of question is it?
[00:34:50.940]What is it asking of you? Mm-hmm.
[00:34:53.316]Two, why did you get it wrong?
[00:34:55.920]Okay. Were you confused? Were you-
[00:34:58.952]Did you just not know it?
[00:35:00.332]Did you just not study it? Yeah.
[00:35:03.140]What was going on there? And for...
[00:35:07.080]It's been interesting because for some
[00:35:09.600]of the letter sound relationship stuff,
[00:35:12.570]it's something like, "Oh, I didn't say this out loud
[00:35:14.940]and I really should have said it out loud, right?"
[00:35:17.039]Yeah, that would've helped. Yes.
[00:35:18.811]Like, what's the...
[00:35:20.820]There was one question that just sticks it in my mind.
[00:35:23.040]It was a valid question,
[00:35:25.410]but very few of my students got it correct.
[00:35:29.280]Where I was like, what letter contains the same sound
[00:35:32.430]you hear at the beginning of tent?
[00:35:34.650]And the correct answer was missed. Like M-I-S-S-E-D.
[00:35:39.630]Mm-hmm.
[00:35:41.460]But no one got it 'cause they didn't say it out loud.
[00:35:43.800]And so- Yes, and so they saw the T
[00:35:45.420]and the D and they, yeah. They saw, yeah.
[00:35:47.100]They saw the E and the D and they were like,
[00:35:48.247]"Oh nope, none of these."
[00:35:49.890]And I was like, "Nope, phonology is about sounds, people.
[00:35:52.950]You gotta make sounds."
[00:35:54.270]But what it allows them to do then is go back
[00:35:58.650]and rethink what that question was asking.
[00:36:01.980]And then I ask them to track,
[00:36:03.990]where in the course material did I cover this?
[00:36:06.360]Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.
[00:36:08.190]There's nothing that I'm asking you
[00:36:09.690]that I haven't covered either in lecture.
[00:36:12.210]Yeah, or in reading. Or in reading.
[00:36:14.310]Yeah. So where is it? Show me.
[00:36:17.007]And I wanna know specifically where you found it,
[00:36:19.320]which reading, what page,
[00:36:22.080]what guided note, what class session.
[00:36:24.395]And that has really helped decrease levels
[00:36:29.790]of anxiety around exams. Mm-hmm, yeah.
[00:36:34.350]Because it's shifting.
[00:36:40.410]It's not this kind of be-all, end-all
[00:36:42.180]totalitarian assessment.
[00:36:45.480]It's really a way to get them back into that content
[00:36:51.330]and view it as a learning possibility.
[00:36:54.450]So in many ways, I mean, in the '90s we talked about,
[00:36:57.660]especially in special education,
[00:36:59.010]we talked about demystifying assessments.
[00:37:02.130]And it's a great way not just to demystify,
[00:37:05.160]but actually give them skill.
[00:37:06.960]So when they either use somebody else's assessment,
[00:37:09.990]which is likely to happen quite a bit
[00:37:11.700]because we get curriculum.
[00:37:12.810]Not everybody does.
[00:37:14.130]Or if they create their own assessment, the ability
[00:37:17.460]to work through that assessment and ask the hard questions.
[00:37:20.430]What was that question trying to do?
[00:37:22.680]Is it really what I was aiming at? Did I cover it?
[00:37:25.890]All of these questions, because we do see that it's spotty.
[00:37:30.540]I mean, the people who write curriculum are people,
[00:37:33.180]and they have differing level of expertise.
[00:37:36.060]And sometimes they're probably tired.
[00:37:37.650]When they got to the third grade, seventh unit,
[00:37:40.650]they might've gotten tired
[00:37:41.850]and a few questions are not quite what they need to be.
[00:37:44.490]So that provides a set of skills.
[00:37:47.280]The other thing that I do with students early in my class,
[00:37:50.460]and that is a little bit connected to that,
[00:37:52.856]and it helps to deflect some of the discussion
[00:37:56.520]and demystify grading is, at least about citizenship
[00:38:00.046]and everything around citizenship in the classroom,
[00:38:03.960]we create rubrics together.
[00:38:05.790]So we collaborate on, what does it mean?
[00:38:08.520]And they get to put a lot of input into that,
[00:38:11.602]which starts a conversation about rubrics
[00:38:14.970]and about performance and about competence.
[00:38:17.640]What is enough? Is really a great moment to talk about.
[00:38:22.050]Because at the beginning of the semester,
[00:38:24.281]there's that wonderful moment
[00:38:26.381]where everybody's got an A, that's the students,
[00:38:29.970]and you as the instructor, you have no grading to do.
[00:38:33.210]It's a glorious moment.
[00:38:34.500]It's probably the only moment in the semester
[00:38:36.420]that is quite like that, but it is great.
[00:38:39.600]And at that moment when you ask students
[00:38:41.730]to talk about citizenship, one of the things that we'll do,
[00:38:44.850]for example, about attendance, and they will say,
[00:38:47.557]"You get full points only if you are 100% in class"
[00:38:52.230]because it's easy because nothing has happened yet.
[00:38:55.560]But there's almost never 100%.
[00:38:58.230]You get sick. I don't want you in class sick.
[00:39:00.600]I'm very sorry to say, not even for that 100%.
[00:39:04.320]So that starts that conversation about competence
[00:39:07.980]and what is enough given that life serves us
[00:39:12.720]with a whole host of things.
[00:39:13.830]And this is with something really simple like attendance.
[00:39:16.470]You're either here or you're not here.
[00:39:18.210]And then we can talk
[00:39:19.043]about whether there's going to be online attendance or not.
[00:39:22.860]For students, for example, especially during COVID,
[00:39:26.010]I mean, we're still during COVID,
[00:39:27.330]but during the high of COVID,
[00:39:29.400]we did not want anybody with COVID in the classroom.
[00:39:32.220]Then we would let people in. That mostly has gone away.
[00:39:35.820]Some people do, some people don't.
[00:39:37.530]But there are opportunities around that
[00:39:39.600]depending on what has happened.
[00:39:41.700]And that's a great discussion
[00:39:44.490]because that can be a discussion about what counts
[00:39:47.220]and what doesn't count, and also, what is good enough?
[00:39:50.880]Is it okay to miss one class or two class sessions?
[00:39:54.150]Usually we eventually get to the point
[00:39:56.264]where we're saying, "Yes, it is okay."
[00:39:58.020]And you're still going to get all,
[00:40:00.270]quote unquote, "that points," all the points
[00:40:02.640]because it's going to happen.
[00:40:04.590]And there's no reason to take away
[00:40:10.140]from your ability to reach competence.
[00:40:13.140]Because again, it's not about showing up.
[00:40:15.120]Showing up is a tool to get to competence.
[00:40:18.210]Yeah, and so two things.
[00:40:20.310]One, that whole, like, on the first day,
[00:40:24.690]oh, everyone has an A mentality is something
[00:40:26.670]that I've had to really get rid of.
[00:40:28.050]Yeah.
[00:40:28.883]Because that does push a perfectionist narrative.
[00:40:32.070]Oh, you're all perfect right now.
[00:40:33.420]Yes. (laughs) It's only all downhill from here.
[00:40:35.850]Right, like, and so I've had to-
[00:40:38.217]But there's that sense.
[00:40:39.480]I've had to really match that.
[00:40:40.710]And my response to that has been,
[00:40:45.540]on the first day, we are full potential right now.
[00:40:49.470]Yes. Like, I want you
[00:40:51.210]to think about everything you think you know
[00:40:52.920]about reading and writing education,
[00:40:55.620]and we're gonna expand and move out of those areas
[00:41:00.660]and really work on developing some competence.
[00:41:04.768]And then the other thing that I've really
[00:41:06.570]been pushing against in my own teaching is,
[00:41:11.220]I don't allocate grades to habits any longer.
[00:41:15.750]'Cause so much of perfectionism
[00:41:17.190]is performing that perfection.
[00:41:20.910]And so like, what that's made me do is,
[00:41:25.200]I don't give points for attendance.
[00:41:27.330]Mm-hmm. I don't.
[00:41:29.430]And part of why I don't is, if you don't show up for class,
[00:41:33.600]you're not gonna be able to pass my class.
[00:41:36.325]Yeah. The value added
[00:41:39.720]in terms of you showing up is integral to what's going on.
[00:41:45.690]So every point is connected to those learning objectives.
[00:41:50.220]And I've made that really, really clear
[00:41:52.350]'cause I'm not looking at...
[00:41:54.660]I will teach you how to construct notes.
[00:41:56.490]I will teach you how to effectively come up
[00:41:59.790]with a flashcard deck to help you study for your exams.
[00:42:03.270]I will teach you those things,
[00:42:04.170]but I'm not grading you on those things.
[00:42:05.340]Those are habits. That's outside of my realm.
[00:42:09.030]Here's where the points are.
[00:42:11.250]They are in your learning
[00:42:12.570]because I need you to be a well-prepared teacher
[00:42:14.790]by the time you leave me.
[00:42:15.870]I don't have time to track like, things.
[00:42:21.030]If I don't see you for a couple of weeks,
[00:42:22.740]I'm gonna send you an email
[00:42:24.810]'cause you're not gonna do well on the exams.
[00:42:26.340]You're not gonna do well on the assignments.
[00:42:29.310]So that's up to them to do that.
[00:42:33.180]Yeah, I see it a little bit differently, to be honest.
[00:42:36.722]I put a lot of emphasis.
[00:42:39.930]So, attendance was a side example.
[00:42:42.390]I'm actually not concerned with attendance at all,
[00:42:45.450]but I am trying to talk to them throughout the semester
[00:42:51.330]about creating a community within the classroom
[00:42:54.510]and trying to model that.
[00:42:56.220]So what we create together is an understanding of,
[00:42:59.100]what does it require to be a member of that community?
[00:43:03.870]And that for me is one of the things
[00:43:06.780]that I'm trying to establish in their understanding of,
[00:43:10.260]what does it take to be a teacher?
[00:43:12.270]Including a reading and writing teacher.
[00:43:15.390]It's, how do you create that community of learners
[00:43:18.030]that work together and achieve together?
[00:43:20.700]Right, and you can do that while also teaching.
[00:43:26.190]Oh, absolutely. Right?
[00:43:27.330]You have to do that while also teaching.
[00:43:30.090]Like, we start with content from day one, you know, like-
[00:43:33.060]Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
[00:43:36.810]We got out early last week
[00:43:40.740]for the first time all semester.
[00:43:43.050]And my students were like- Wow.
[00:43:44.107]"This is the first time all semester
[00:43:47.760]that this has happened." Yeah.
[00:43:50.220]Yeah, because there's some stuff I need to teach you.
[00:43:52.680]There's some urgency.
[00:43:53.513]I don't get to take an off day unless I'm super sick,
[00:43:56.250]which has happened, but-
[00:43:58.560]And it does happen. You model that
[00:43:59.926]and you have a continuation plan for learning.
[00:44:05.880]Yes, I got into trouble with that a few years back,
[00:44:08.880]quite a few years back before the pandemic.
[00:44:13.290]I was working with a colleague and we were,
[00:44:18.000]we're like, "We are at the point where we can teach online,
[00:44:21.900]and we all have resources
[00:44:23.610]so if class is going to get canceled,
[00:44:25.830]here's what's gonna happen."
[00:44:27.960]The blowback about 10 years ago was enormous
[00:44:32.580]because it was a snow day.
[00:44:34.410]And we said, "Here's what you need to know
[00:44:37.170]'cause we don't have time."
[00:44:39.570]That did not go well. I would imagine not. So-
[00:44:43.950]Snow days are sacred.
[00:44:45.660]Snow days are kind of sacred.
[00:44:47.700]I mean, just because we don't have snow very often,
[00:44:49.980]so it's an event. (laughs) Yes it is.
[00:44:52.260]You know?
[00:44:53.093]So, one of the best things that we can do
[00:44:56.970]for maladaptive perfectionists is to be really clear
[00:45:02.400]about reasonable expectations
[00:45:04.080]to really de-emphasize perfection in our coursework.
[00:45:09.330]Be clear about what it is we're trying to do for them,
[00:45:13.440]and be thoughtful about
[00:45:17.220]how we are communicating learning
[00:45:23.940]as process versus learning as point accumulation, right?
[00:45:28.320]So to your earlier point about rubrics,
[00:45:31.290]within rubrics, I don't include points any longer.
[00:45:34.530]This is the proficient column.
[00:45:36.513]Here's the characteristics of what I'm looking for
[00:45:39.570]in terms of proficiency.
[00:45:41.370]And if you want to have a conversation with me
[00:45:43.110]about where you are, we're grounding it
[00:45:46.350]in the characteristics in that rubric.
[00:45:48.840]And that requires a really well-written rubric.
[00:45:52.440]That's not just bean counting, right?
[00:45:56.250]So rubrics tend to get used to justify grades.
[00:45:58.980]That's not the purpose of a rubric.
[00:46:00.240]A rubric's meant to be a learning progression.
[00:46:01.980]Yeah, and a guide to the learner more than anybody else.
[00:46:05.280]Exactly, so like, we have to be careful
[00:46:08.489]about those kinds of things
[00:46:09.810]because we always want to balance those high expectations
[00:46:14.516]but within reasonable standards, right?
[00:46:17.010]Like, we cannot go around telling our students,
[00:46:22.147]"We want you to be perfect." No.
[00:46:24.270]And not expect some level of anxiety.
[00:46:28.230]Like, that's just not fair to them.
[00:46:30.330]And not defining what perfect is or what best is or-
[00:46:35.220]Mm-hmm, and not providing clear articulation
[00:46:41.400]of what that looks like, right?
[00:46:43.230]I mean, part of what has been so helpful
[00:46:46.770]about this particular semester
[00:46:48.150]as I've been taking on this work is, it's been really lovely
[00:46:52.260]to model for my students' language around their learning
[00:46:56.280]and see them and hear them utilize
[00:46:58.410]that same kind of language. Yeah.
[00:47:00.990]That metalinguistic ability has been delightful and lovely
[00:47:07.200]and has really helped me reposition myself and my students.
[00:47:14.910]And I want to point out
[00:47:17.010]that especially if you're starting out on teaching,
[00:47:19.500]and this is early in your career, this is an opportunity
[00:47:23.070]to make sure that there's joy in teaching
[00:47:26.850]because teaching sometimes becomes about survival,
[00:47:29.280]and that's my least favorite kind of teaching.
[00:47:31.830]But if you are clear with yourself and with your students
[00:47:35.070]and have reasonable expectations,
[00:47:37.560]then it's gonna be considerably more joyful
[00:47:40.050]because you're gonna get that feedback from them.
[00:47:42.300]And you don't have to constantly fight
[00:47:44.550]against expectations or that sense of anxiety.
[00:47:48.540]That sense of anxiety, going back to what you said,
[00:47:50.970]that sense of anxiety is real. Yeah.
[00:47:53.430]Whether we agree with it or not is highly irrelevant.
[00:47:57.660]That sense that they have is real,
[00:47:59.430]and it's distracting from their learning.
[00:48:02.370]Yeah. In real ways
[00:48:04.530]so we have to do something with it.
[00:48:06.540]Well, and so that brings us to kind of the final point
[00:48:09.600]of this meandering conversation.
[00:48:12.420]Like, there is... (Guy laughing)
[00:48:16.800]Even Dan is laughing. I know. I heard that.
[00:48:22.020]We're "Not That Kind of Doctor," right?
[00:48:23.760]So these are strategies that I've,
[00:48:26.880]some of these strategies I've been able to utilize
[00:48:28.740]in my coursework this semester.
[00:48:31.020]And that's worked with- The majority of students.
[00:48:34.153]A majority of students who I would say
[00:48:36.450]in my "Not That Kind of Doctor" opinion,
[00:48:38.790]have some level of maladaptive perfectionism.
[00:48:41.790]And I've seen that shift and change across the semester,
[00:48:44.250]and I've really appreciated that.
[00:48:46.029]But there's no guarantee that this would work with someone
[00:48:48.150]who has massively maladaptive perfectionism.
[00:48:52.260]And so thinking about ways to work with wraparound services.
[00:48:58.020]Mm-hmm, absolutely. Here at UNL,
[00:48:59.940]we have CAPS counseling who work with students
[00:49:05.070]around these kinds of things to help get over those,
[00:49:10.163]for instance, procrastination blocks.
[00:49:12.840]Yeah, the paralysis that can come with perfectionism.
[00:49:15.720]Right. Absolutely, yeah.
[00:49:16.740]And so they're more trained at that than I will ever be.
[00:49:21.270]Like, I want to be clear that as I'm thinking about this,
[00:49:24.690]I am not like, "I'm a psychologist."
[00:49:26.670]No, I'm a teacher educator
[00:49:28.530]who gets better at teaching the longer I am around.
[00:49:32.580]Like, that's the point of that practice, right?
[00:49:34.860]And so as I'm considering this,
[00:49:36.630]what's within my realm of possibility to support this?
[00:49:41.970]So, I'm not a counselor.
[00:49:44.190]I will listen to a student talk with me
[00:49:49.167]and then refer them to counseling.
[00:49:51.360]Yeah, and it's really important to know that,
[00:49:53.760]especially if you're starting out in teaching
[00:49:56.820]at the university level.
[00:49:58.200]And that is, when you feel like, "I cannot help,"
[00:50:01.530]if you can't help your whole classroom,
[00:50:03.450]then you need to reorient and find a mentor
[00:50:06.330]and make sure you have one already.
[00:50:08.340]But talk to your mentor and find out strategies
[00:50:11.940]to work with your whole classroom.
[00:50:13.110]But there are going to be a few students
[00:50:15.240]that it feels like they're outside the norm
[00:50:18.630]in your classroom and you can't help them.
[00:50:20.190]And this is the moment,
[00:50:21.270]not to take that on as an extra burden, but to say,
[00:50:24.397]"You need help beyond what I can do to you.
[00:50:26.730]Talk to your advisor. Go and get counseling."
[00:50:31.140]In all universities, at least in the United States,
[00:50:33.750]we have counseling services,
[00:50:35.520]and they can give a certain number
[00:50:37.830]of at least minimum sessions available to you.
[00:50:42.210]Counseling them early.
[00:50:43.290]So if you sense that early,
[00:50:44.940]send them early because it gets really hard.
[00:50:47.700]Yeah. That there's,
[00:50:48.750]in the last few years there's been a lot of consumption
[00:50:53.460]of these services and they tend to have a backlog,
[00:50:58.320]so send them early.
[00:50:59.970]They're much more likely to get help,
[00:51:01.650]even if it takes a few weeks.
[00:51:03.330]But they, when it gets to that point,
[00:51:08.036]you also need to ask for help at that point and not just be-
[00:51:12.270]Well, and also, not to get meta about this,
[00:51:15.420]but I feel like as educators,
[00:51:17.910]we want to be everything to everyone.
[00:51:19.890]Yes, and we can't. And we can't.
[00:51:21.510]That's maladaptive perfectionism.
[00:51:23.490]And we will talk about that next time.
[00:51:25.740]We'll talk about ourselves with that perfectionism,
[00:51:28.320]not just our students. Oh jeez.
[00:51:30.840]That is not the episode that I proposed, Guy!
[00:51:34.470]But I think we should tackle that
[00:51:36.030]because that is something I see in graduate students
[00:51:39.300]and in faculty just as much as I've seen in our students.
[00:51:42.630]And I think that's something that we need to talk about
[00:51:46.410]because that comes out in maladaptive ways
[00:51:51.960]that are not good for long-term wellbeing
[00:51:55.800]and also for survival in academia,
[00:51:59.070]so that's a promise for next time.
[00:52:00.900]It's a promise for next time.
[00:52:02.430]All right.
[00:52:03.263]That's not the one I had planned, Guy.
[00:52:05.810](laughs) All right.
[00:52:07.470]Look at me being maladaptive right now.
[00:52:09.670]Okay, okay. It's fine. It's fine.
[00:52:13.170]So yes, so, when we're thinking about perfectionism,
[00:52:19.597]I would encourage everyone who works with students
[00:52:23.340]to really think through, how can you embrace that?
[00:52:25.620]'Cause students are coming with it
[00:52:27.210]whether they want to or not.
[00:52:28.590]We don't wanna have a Rory Gilmore moment
[00:52:30.060]where all of a sudden at the end of season four,
[00:52:32.250]she's stealing a yacht.
[00:52:33.270]Like, no one wants that
[00:52:34.440]'cause it's just the downfall of the entire series.
[00:52:37.680]And Western civilization. Yes.
[00:52:39.120]And civilization in general, not just Western.
[00:52:41.160]I wonder if Amy Sherman-Palladino knows that she did that.
[00:52:44.250]Probably. Ugh.
[00:52:46.050]Anyway, so, we've outlined some ways to be thinking
[00:52:50.430]about better adapting to and supporting that perfectionism,
[00:52:57.330]right? Mm-hmm.
[00:52:58.163]How do we move students from being maladaptive?
[00:53:00.030]How do we help them negotiate that
[00:53:01.350]within the boundaries of what we can do as teachers?
[00:53:04.491]And when do we reach out for bigger help?
[00:53:07.140]So again, we are "Not That Kind of Doctor,"
[00:53:09.930]so I will make sure that there are some resources
[00:53:12.960]that I have found particularly helpful
[00:53:15.810]in the description box.
[00:53:19.140]All right.
[00:53:20.580]But yeah, yeah.
[00:53:22.650]Mm-hmm.
[00:53:24.120]This has been "Not That Kind of Doctor,"
[00:53:26.580]where we're talking about teaching, not counseling,
[00:53:29.130]because that's what we do. (laughs) Yes.
[00:53:30.690]So we're separating these things.
[00:53:32.640]Trying to. All right, and so next time
[00:53:33.990]we're talking about... (sighs)
[00:53:36.720]Our own perfectionism.
[00:53:38.340]Our own perfectionism. Yes.
[00:53:40.860]Some people are uncomfortable right now.
[00:53:43.500]Well, I mean, no, actually,
[00:53:45.270]here's what I'm trying to figure out is like,
[00:53:46.530]do I have money to send you for a therapy session?
[00:53:48.510]'Cause that's what that feels like.
[00:53:50.370]And I just paid off my student loans today.
[00:53:54.150]Whoo!
[00:53:55.110]And so I'm like, "Will I have extra money to do that?"
[00:53:57.227]'Cause I feel like there should be some compensation
[00:53:59.580]for that as I'm like, "Here are my problems!"
[00:54:02.910]Yes, but we are about being faculty, not about therapy.
[00:54:07.433]Just bringing us to the previous section.
[00:54:10.200]All right, we'll see you next time.
[00:54:13.051](energetic electronic music)
[00:54:16.675]♪ Hey, hey ♪

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Not That Kind of Doctor - Perfectionism

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