Not That Kind of Doctor - Leadership

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09/21/2023 Added

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Leadership - Ph.D. discussions with Nicholas Husbye and Guy Trainin. www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor and https://mediahub.unl.edu/channels/42980

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[00:00:00.060](upbeat ambient music)
[00:00:10.170]Leadership. Leadership.
[00:00:12.398]I'm sorry, that was drum roll, please.
[00:00:15.960]You were like, "I am ready to go."
[00:00:17.970]Hmm.
[00:00:18.803]You were showing some leadership.
[00:00:20.104](Guy laughing)
[00:00:21.840]You were showing some initiative.
[00:00:23.490]Initiative, yes. Things were moving.
[00:00:25.500]Things will be moving.
[00:00:26.700]Which I appreciate because you know what?
[00:00:29.516]What?
[00:00:30.750]It's one of my favorite times of the year again.
[00:00:32.730]Yes, it is.
[00:00:34.080]I love job season.
[00:00:36.069]There's something delightful about it.
[00:00:38.220]There's, you know, not that I'm looking, I'm not looking.
[00:00:40.750]Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:42.425]That was not a Freudian flip, I am not looking.
[00:00:45.785]But it's always interesting to get a feel
[00:00:49.650]for the ways in which academic jobs are changing.
[00:00:54.870]And there's, as I was like,
[00:00:57.930]researching for today and trying to think through like,
[00:01:03.264]what else can we say about the job market?
[00:01:07.851]I noticed two big things as I was looking through,
[00:01:11.070]particularly literacy ed jobs,
[00:01:14.670]but then I was delving into some other content area jobs
[00:01:18.849]in teaching,
[00:01:20.610]and one,
[00:01:23.639]increased focus on being a salary neutral position.
[00:01:30.150]Mm-hmm. Which I found interesting.
[00:01:31.890]And so for those of you who don't know,
[00:01:33.390]salary neutral is when you are tasked
[00:01:37.560]with bringing in enough grant money to cover your salary.
[00:01:41.752]Yeah.
[00:01:42.585]So that was one trend that I saw much more of this year
[00:01:46.560]than I have in previous years at the assistant level.
[00:01:49.851]Yeah.
[00:01:50.684]'Cause sometimes I'll see that,
[00:01:51.840]it used to be associate or full.
[00:01:53.310]Yeah. Right.
[00:01:54.568]And then the other thing that I was noticing were
[00:02:00.218]built into the job description
[00:02:03.293]was taking on some larger leadership positions
[00:02:09.030]that were interesting.
[00:02:09.870]Like you will be coordinator of the elementary program
[00:02:12.930]as a first year. Yes.
[00:02:14.490]Faculty member. Yeah.
[00:02:16.140]I've seen a few of those too.
[00:02:17.850]Which is not impossible,
[00:02:20.910]but as a grad student. Yeah.
[00:02:24.150]Thinking about going up for that position,
[00:02:26.623]how do you talk about leadership
[00:02:30.630]and ways that you've been able to develop leadership
[00:02:33.420]and what it is and what are the components of it?
[00:02:35.540]And so both you and I have been in
[00:02:38.400]a variety of different leadership spaces,
[00:02:41.250]we've both had some really positive successes.
[00:02:46.586]Also, I can only speak for myself here,
[00:02:49.290]but also have gone down in flames, you know,
[00:02:54.404]and have also been like really frustrated,
[00:02:58.200]but also energized by those leadership positions.
[00:03:01.650]And so I thought
[00:03:04.110]what a great topic to get Guys' perspectives on.
[00:03:08.135](Guy laughing) Yes.
[00:03:09.510]And I've seen those, and I've wondered about those,
[00:03:12.780]especially at the assistant level.
[00:03:14.400]And I think there are two ways to talk about it today,
[00:03:17.790]one is how can you project back?
[00:03:20.850]So if you are on the market right now
[00:03:22.680]and you're applying for these jobs,
[00:03:24.390]how do you articulate the experiences you've had?
[00:03:27.060]But if you are a little bit earlier in your career,
[00:03:29.580]this is the opportunity
[00:03:31.200]at your career as a graduate student here,
[00:03:33.227]this is your opportunity to start thinking about
[00:03:36.450]what are small experiences that I can build
[00:03:38.987]a coherent narrative if that is required in a job
[00:03:42.810]that's emerging?
[00:03:44.520]And I want to apply to, and it's mostly what I do,
[00:03:47.640]but there's an element of leadership, I will need something,
[00:03:51.120]what do I plan on?
[00:03:52.020]What are the opportunities?
[00:03:53.580]And the caveat here, I think is always,
[00:03:56.460]as you are emerging into a profession,
[00:03:58.800]is you don't want to focus only on leadership.
[00:04:02.027]You need your domain expertise,
[00:04:03.930]you need your experience in teaching.
[00:04:06.810]So it's just one more thing,
[00:04:08.670]and it cannot take over your life.
[00:04:10.230]It has to be contained enough that you can show the ability
[00:04:15.630]and you can show the potential
[00:04:17.250]without spending an extra year in graduate school
[00:04:21.330]just to be able to do that.
[00:04:22.890]Right.
[00:04:23.723]And I think that ties in with,
[00:04:25.425]there's so much out there around leadership,
[00:04:28.830]right, like coaching, coaching, quote unquote
[00:04:33.840]feels like it's become this like weird industry.
[00:04:37.108]And we also as a society just tend to
[00:04:42.237]fetishize some anomalies in terms of leadership.
[00:04:50.464]Yes, we do. You know, like Steve Jobs,
[00:04:52.860]like not everyone is a Steve Jobs,
[00:04:55.080]like that's a particular kind of leadership.
[00:05:00.570]Yes.
[00:05:01.500]And. Elon Musk,
[00:05:02.970]that's a particular kind. Let's not go down that road.
[00:05:06.090]Of leadership. Yes.
[00:05:07.440]Well, but it is part of like the discussion of,
[00:05:10.475]oh, how do we be a leader like Elon Musk?
[00:05:12.900]I don't care.
[00:05:13.733]No. I don't care.
[00:05:15.395]One, I don't have the money to care.
[00:05:17.400]Yeah.
[00:05:18.233]And two, I don't think I'm that arrogant.
[00:05:21.168]And I think you can be a leader and not be an asshole.
[00:05:25.710]Right, right.
[00:05:26.880]And so how do we sort through kind of,
[00:05:30.210]I'm so glad you said that and it wasn't me.
[00:05:34.172]At the heart of this is that idea
[00:05:37.740]that to really get things done, you have to be that way.
[00:05:40.777]And there's no evidence for that.
[00:05:43.384]I mean, there is actually.
[00:05:45.870]Hmm.
[00:05:47.958]When you look at like actual leadership studies.
[00:05:50.514]Yeah. And not like
[00:05:52.140]the popular science around leadership,
[00:05:54.300]which sometimes gets some stuff wrong, right?
[00:05:56.730]Like there is this relationship,
[00:05:59.444]it actually mirrors onto the teaching relationship research
[00:06:02.460]really, really well,
[00:06:03.630]where people are more responsive to kind of a,
[00:06:11.903]what I think of as a benevolent tyrant, right, like.
[00:06:16.530]Yes. I know what I'm doing,
[00:06:18.450]I have a plan moving forward,
[00:06:19.830]my job is to persuade you to come into this
[00:06:23.160]and leverage your expertise
[00:06:26.070]in order to work toward this goal, right?
[00:06:30.000]And there's a bit of asshole of in that.
[00:06:36.210]Oh,
[00:06:37.114]I don't think it has to.
[00:06:37.947]Right, I mean. I think that.
[00:06:39.540]It can though.
[00:06:40.624]That is a little bit sidelined from that.
[00:06:45.604]You don't have, I mean, when I say asshole,
[00:06:49.140]I mean, a belligerent, a reductive.
[00:06:54.050]Oh yeah.
[00:06:55.410]No, that's not. Those behaviors,
[00:06:57.210]because when we talk about Musk and even Jobs, again,
[00:07:00.010]talented people, not taking the talent away,
[00:07:03.090]but as managers, they leave something to be desired.
[00:07:05.610]If everybody is afraid when you walk into a room,
[00:07:08.100]whether they're gonna have a job
[00:07:09.450]at the end of a conversation, that is a problem.
[00:07:12.270]And definitely when we are talking now,
[00:07:14.220]let's take it to when you are starting in a profession,
[00:07:16.980]whether you're graduate students
[00:07:18.210]or a young emerging faculty member,
[00:07:21.895]you don't have that kind of power.
[00:07:24.240]When Jobs walked into the room
[00:07:25.770]or when Elon Musk walks into the room, he owns the company
[00:07:29.296]and. Right.
[00:07:30.480]He gets to sign all the checks.
[00:07:32.250]That's a very different position of power.
[00:07:34.170]So you have to understand that
[00:07:36.870]when you're walking into these
[00:07:38.340]beginning leadership positions,
[00:07:39.840]there are lots of people around you
[00:07:41.790]and you do not possess ultimate power or almost any power.
[00:07:45.270]Mm-hmm.
[00:07:46.110]Well, and so that kind of helps us segue
[00:07:49.200]into this first area of like,
[00:07:51.630]okay, so you're in this position,
[00:07:54.000]you have very little power,
[00:07:55.650]how do you bring about any kind of change?
[00:08:00.150]And thinking about that,
[00:08:02.446]which reminds me, I need to check up on that manuscript
[00:08:04.710]I rewrote about.
[00:08:05.543]This exact topic. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:07.538]I'll do that after this podcast.
[00:08:09.240]But like communication feels like
[00:08:14.141]it's key to that kind of work, right?
[00:08:19.260]Like how do we engage in, talk around,
[00:08:25.956]whether it's program or whatever kind of unit
[00:08:30.441]and boundaries that you're in
[00:08:33.060]for that particular leadership position,
[00:08:36.345]you know, that's clear, honest, and kind,
[00:08:42.518]which I would love to know, 'cause oftentimes,
[00:08:47.595]particularly when I'm talking with undergraduates
[00:08:50.040]about the difference between kind and nice.
[00:08:52.920]Yeah. How would you separate
[00:08:53.910]those two things?
[00:08:55.740](Guy chuckles)
[00:08:58.535]Nice is, I think the way I'm interpreting nice,
[00:09:03.090]especially Nebraska nice which is a thing,
[00:09:05.697]it's not just Nebraska,
[00:09:07.620]but it's really about being conflict averse.
[00:09:10.440]It's like, I am not,
[00:09:12.780]or I do not want to tell you something
[00:09:15.090]you don't want to hear,
[00:09:16.170]or that I think might cause you to feel something
[00:09:21.570]and potentially negative.
[00:09:23.329]And so I will just not engage, I will talk around it.
[00:09:28.050]and this is something that elementary teachers,
[00:09:32.100]which we work with a lot,
[00:09:33.540]do very often is communicate about the child
[00:09:36.690]who's not doing well in school
[00:09:38.670]and communicate in these ways that
[00:09:43.257]are not clear necessarily to the people listening,
[00:09:46.110]in this case, parents.
[00:09:47.610]And I remember meeting parents who were immigrants
[00:09:50.848]and saying, "You know, our kid is now in middle school,
[00:09:54.360]and for the first time a teacher told us that he can't read.
[00:09:57.960]Why has it taken until sixth grade in middle school
[00:10:02.130]to hear that from a teacher?"
[00:10:03.630]And all I'm thinking on the inside,
[00:10:05.160]I know the conversation,
[00:10:06.694]"Johnny is trying very hard.
[00:10:08.880]He's doing his best."
[00:10:10.530]But you never actually say that.
[00:10:12.870]And is it kind?
[00:10:13.860]No.
[00:10:14.877]Is it nice?
[00:10:15.874]It avoids the conflict.
[00:10:16.707]It avoids saying something hard that people need to hear.
[00:10:19.350]So the kind is, you need to hear this,
[00:10:22.260]I need to do it in a way that's not judgmental,
[00:10:24.900]that is not hurtful, but you need to hear this.
[00:10:27.660]This is for me the separation.
[00:10:29.244]Yeah.
[00:10:30.330]And that's hard to do,
[00:10:32.100]especially when we take it back to leadership,
[00:10:34.890]because talking to parents, you as the teacher,
[00:10:37.560]you have some authority and you have some knowledge
[00:10:39.810]that the parents don't necessarily do.
[00:10:42.394]But when you are a young faculty member
[00:10:45.467]and you are a graduate student
[00:10:47.190]and you're feeling your way around
[00:10:49.230]and you have even less power.
[00:10:51.660]So there's an instinct to avoid conflict,
[00:10:54.552]and to avoid saying things because you're still judging
[00:10:59.243]how things are being done.
[00:11:01.794]So I think it is harder.
[00:11:04.260]Yeah.
[00:11:05.093]I mean, it's definitely, I mean, even four years in.
[00:11:09.347]Yeah. It's tricky.
[00:11:10.680]Like when are you thinking about,
[00:11:13.813]I always like to think about outcome, right?
[00:11:16.320]Like
[00:11:18.877]if I'm being truthful, honest, and kind in this feedback,
[00:11:26.730]is it gonna result in an action?
[00:11:29.167]Yeah.
[00:11:30.300]Or is it gonna result in inaction?
[00:11:31.860]And if it's gonna result in inaction,
[00:11:33.488]I'm not gonna spend that social capital
[00:11:35.250]at that point in time.
[00:11:36.540]Right, like, when I'm thinking about feedback,
[00:11:40.603]and oftentimes communication is about like,
[00:11:45.570]feedback of evaluating ideas, those kinds of things.
[00:11:51.047]The quality of the feedback
[00:11:53.838]is not as important as the person receiving the feedback,
[00:11:58.800]their ability to take that up and make that actionable.
[00:12:01.590]So like, if someone is being kind to me
[00:12:06.360]and telling me things that I need to hear.
[00:12:08.730]Yeah.
[00:12:09.563]Like that's an act of bravery.
[00:12:11.472]I need to take that up, it might be unsettling.
[00:12:14.673]Yeah. Right.
[00:12:16.020]But it's also like a,
[00:12:18.180]holy crap, thank you for investing in me.
[00:12:20.378]Yeah. Right.
[00:12:22.026]And I think something that you said is really important
[00:12:25.800]because we're talking about communication,
[00:12:27.600]but communication,
[00:12:28.470]starting with communicating with yourself and saying,
[00:12:31.087]"What is the action that I would like to see?"
[00:12:34.015]And it doesn't mean, or where are we leading this?
[00:12:37.470]And I think that's really important to remember
[00:12:39.600]because you can communicate about so many things,
[00:12:43.410]and that's where it stops.
[00:12:45.750]And we see that sometimes, especially in academic circles,
[00:12:48.987]sometimes we have a lot of discussions
[00:12:51.180]and then people leave the meeting and nothing happens.
[00:12:54.090]And then we have that discuss,
[00:12:55.260]we pick up that discussion a year later or a month later.
[00:12:58.650]Three years later. Or three years later,
[00:12:59.773]whatever it is, and still nothing has happened.
[00:13:02.670]And you have to understand
[00:13:04.890]from a leadership perspective what you're doing,
[00:13:07.410]and there's really good empirical evidence about this,
[00:13:10.770]if people feel that it's futile that you're coming,
[00:13:13.110]you're discussing, and nothing happened,
[00:13:15.030]they might play a part in that charade,
[00:13:17.070]but they believe in your leadership
[00:13:18.420]or in that our ability even to do anything
[00:13:21.210]less and less over time.
[00:13:22.650]So you just run out of,
[00:13:24.594]there's a certain amount of currency that you have,
[00:13:30.630]political currency that you have to make things happen.
[00:13:33.030]And if for a period of time, you can't make anything happen,
[00:13:36.720]people will stop believing,
[00:13:38.580]and even if there's an action that they are interested in,
[00:13:41.090]they will not believe that you can help them make it happen.
[00:13:44.310]So they will disengage.
[00:13:45.870]So it is about engaging, communicating,
[00:13:47.910]but also first communicate with yourself, have a plan.
[00:13:50.414]What do you want to accomplish?
[00:13:52.083]And that's going back to other conversations
[00:13:55.920]we've had about setting reasonable goals.
[00:13:59.280]Yes, there are maybe 20 things that need to be done,
[00:14:01.950]but what are the top two that you can actually accomplish
[00:14:05.028]in a reasonable amount of time?
[00:14:06.630]Let's focus, let's get them done,
[00:14:08.250]and then we'll get to the other 18.
[00:14:09.941]Right, like what's the timescale?
[00:14:11.910]Like if you have a position like a coordinator,
[00:14:14.756]I have three years. Yeah.
[00:14:16.980]I have a big idea of what I wanna do in those three years
[00:14:20.580]and trying to chop it up into doable projects.
[00:14:26.080]Yeah.
[00:14:26.913]And otherwise, yeah, you will lose faculty
[00:14:29.280]and then you will have a situation, which we've had,
[00:14:31.650]we have a large faculty in the elementary education,
[00:14:34.710]and we've gotten to the point in the past
[00:14:36.450]where three people showed up.
[00:14:37.980]And that's, I mean, that says everybody's disengaged,
[00:14:41.010]if they don't have to be there, they're not there
[00:14:42.660]because they don't feel anything is gonna happen.
[00:14:44.790]And that's not where you want to be.
[00:14:46.230]Even if you are just a team player,
[00:14:48.630]it doesn't feel like a team at that point.
[00:14:50.580]Right.
[00:14:51.413]And I feel like part of that is developing
[00:14:55.393]kind of a set of active listening skills,
[00:14:58.907]which is almost counterintuitive in academia
[00:15:03.660]because we're trained to,
[00:15:05.100]oh, I have this to say about this particular topic.
[00:15:07.338]Yeah.
[00:15:08.171]And my goal is to peer review your ideas
[00:15:12.069]and impose what I know about the world onto those ideas.
[00:15:16.200]Yeah.
[00:15:17.033]And that's not what active listening is.
[00:15:19.077]So it kind of runs counter to,
[00:15:21.992]I like to think of active listening a bit like
[00:15:25.415]you're building your literature review,
[00:15:27.450]like you're figuring out and synthesizing
[00:15:30.225]across all of these different sources,
[00:15:33.685]what it is that are the big ideas within your group
[00:15:38.640]and what people are wrestling with,
[00:15:39.660]what the problems are or what they're trying to do?
[00:15:43.590]And for me, it also goes back
[00:15:45.930]to always remind yourself what the goal is.
[00:15:50.640]What is the outcome we're looking for?
[00:15:52.260]Because we can have discussions, somebody can say something
[00:15:55.374]and you may have three problems with what they're saying.
[00:15:59.246]And the question that I want to ask myself often
[00:16:02.790]is, is this going to be,
[00:16:04.980]are these comments really about the main thing
[00:16:07.560]that we're trying to accomplish?
[00:16:08.790]Or is this an academic discussion about the side issue
[00:16:11.880]that really doesn't matter for our goals?
[00:16:13.980]And once in a while, I catch myself saying,
[00:16:16.408]oh my God, I know I gotten into this argument,
[00:16:19.890]but that was really not the point here
[00:16:22.107]and I just should have not said anything.
[00:16:25.500]And so that's part of that.
[00:16:29.760]But let's move forward and think about
[00:16:32.533]as we are thinking about teams and thinking about
[00:16:37.648]how do you play a part in the teams,
[00:16:41.296]how do you think about the way you work in a team,
[00:16:46.820]especially in academia?
[00:16:50.190]So I mean,
[00:16:52.539]I've been thinking about this a lot lately
[00:16:55.110]as I move into. Yes.
[00:16:56.460]Into roles like,
[00:16:57.510]into roles and, you know, having failed at that role
[00:17:02.859]to an extent previously.
[00:17:05.220]Like I have a different framework for how to,
[00:17:10.467]I'm not as naive this time, I think, right?
[00:17:12.981]Yeah.
[00:17:13.814]Like I've really been thinking about
[00:17:18.474]better ways to secure investment from people.
[00:17:25.770]Like very similar to what you were talking about before,
[00:17:29.401]helping the members of that team
[00:17:33.450]connect to a larger mission.
[00:17:35.520]What are we trying to do broadly?
[00:17:38.220]What's the vision that we're striving toward?
[00:17:41.340]And then breaking down that vision into smaller projects
[00:17:47.910]that are either immediately
[00:17:52.020]or within a short amount of time, doable.
[00:17:56.760]And helping people who are on that team
[00:18:01.985]bring their diverse ideas
[00:18:04.604]in order to create something that really works well for,
[00:18:09.473]I mean, as coordinator, I'm thinking program wide,
[00:18:12.360]right, like students,
[00:18:14.160]our students don't experience this as individual classes,
[00:18:16.950]they experience this as a program.
[00:18:19.200]Yeah.
[00:18:20.070]And so how are we pulling in
[00:18:23.721]diverse ideas across our instructors?
[00:18:27.420]And how am I helping individual instructors be heard?
[00:18:31.075]But also how do those ideas help build
[00:18:35.379]and accumulate knowledge across that program
[00:18:39.240]for our students?
[00:18:41.040]And so trying to give a variety of different options
[00:18:47.820]for folks to be heard, for folks to participate.
[00:18:51.510]So whether it's, oh, pre-meeting,
[00:18:53.610]I'd love you for you to fill out this survey.
[00:18:56.040]And I leverage that information to kind of structure
[00:19:00.330]some of what we're doing within that meeting.
[00:19:03.180]And thinking about how I can use those insights,
[00:19:08.850]what's urgent to people?
[00:19:10.106]What are they most excited about?
[00:19:12.339]What can I build some action around
[00:19:17.812]helps, I think, bring people in to that space.
[00:19:22.271]And I think, this is hard sometimes in academic circles,
[00:19:27.900]but thinking about people's incentives
[00:19:30.165]and clarifying the incentives for,
[00:19:33.570]and especially I think about as we engage graduate students,
[00:19:37.050]one of the things, I talked to them,
[00:19:38.550]why would you want to be on a committee, for example?
[00:19:41.130]Well, you're getting the experience as faculty member.
[00:19:44.100]So yes,
[00:19:44.970]you're gonna spend a few hours a month reading some things
[00:19:47.940]and getting ready for a meeting
[00:19:49.170]and then spending time with faculty.
[00:19:50.850]But you're learning a lot,
[00:19:52.470]that's gonna serve you really well in the future.
[00:19:54.420]So you've gotta find a way
[00:19:56.100]to think about different constituents,
[00:19:57.660]because in any of these meetings,
[00:19:59.490]it's never just faculty, like tenure line faculty.
[00:20:02.670]We have professors of practice or clinical professors,
[00:20:06.810]we have staff, we have graduate students,
[00:20:10.350]we have instructors and supervisors.
[00:20:13.410]And so there's a variety of people
[00:20:15.720]with very different incentives.
[00:20:17.610]And you've gotta think about
[00:20:19.418]what is going to make them want to stay
[00:20:22.260]and engage with this problem.
[00:20:24.090]You've gotta make sure they understand
[00:20:25.920]why it matters to them.
[00:20:26.970]Whether it's a big vision
[00:20:28.530]or what are you gonna get accomplished in this semester?
[00:20:31.745]There's gotta be enough clarity
[00:20:33.810]that they will want to participate
[00:20:35.250]because they seep at the point.
[00:20:36.630]Or even like in a single meeting.
[00:20:38.820]Yeah. Right.
[00:20:39.725]In a single meeting. Yes.
[00:20:41.073]We can draft a mission statement.
[00:20:44.229]Like, and being able to, I think one of the things
[00:20:49.200]when you're thinking about building and leading a team is
[00:20:54.938]it's really easy to admire problems.
[00:20:59.568]And we are really good at that.
[00:21:01.920]And making them more complex than they need to be.
[00:21:04.320]Yes, and that goes back to that quote,
[00:21:07.290]complexity that lives rent free in my head
[00:21:09.870]around being the refuge of the powerful.
[00:21:13.800]Yeah. And a privilege of,
[00:21:16.599]a marker of your status in the world.
[00:21:19.610]Right, when you can say, "Oh, this is so complex."
[00:21:21.829]Yes, let me tell you how complex it is.
[00:21:24.360]Let me tell you how complex it is.
[00:21:26.401]Yes, please tell me more. (Guy laughing)
[00:21:29.040]Please, 'cause that's gonna help us solve that problem.
[00:21:32.220]But like,
[00:21:33.420]it's a different matter to actually solve that problem.
[00:21:37.583]Mm-hmm. And to like,
[00:21:39.706]I have really been challenged to think through
[00:21:44.541]agendas as task items. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:48.624]As action items. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:50.910]And I feel like that helps build that buy-in.
[00:21:57.585]If people leave a meeting
[00:21:59.625]feeling like their time has been valued.
[00:22:02.568]Yes.
[00:22:03.862]And something has been accomplished.
[00:22:05.760]And something has been accomplished and you talk about it.
[00:22:08.100]Yeah.
[00:22:08.933]Right, so like I've included at the end of every agenda,
[00:22:12.000]what was the value of today?
[00:22:13.290]Yeah.
[00:22:14.123]I wanna know what was the value of today?
[00:22:15.570]And if you didn't find any value,
[00:22:16.890]that tells me that I need to be thinking something through
[00:22:21.060]slightly differently, right.
[00:22:23.310]If it's an anomaly, then
[00:22:25.740]you might just have someone who never finds value in it.
[00:22:27.990]But if the majority of people find value, then great.
[00:22:31.523]So taking this to graduate students,
[00:22:34.560]because we're talking a lot about our roles,
[00:22:36.930]but we've been doing this for a while,
[00:22:38.640]what can graduate students do?
[00:22:41.031]And it is somewhat the same, but I want to really focus in
[00:22:45.240]on what can graduate students do
[00:22:47.490]to really effectively lead in the small ways
[00:22:49.680]and their opportunities and motivate the team set, goals.
[00:22:53.370]And we talked about that and?
[00:22:56.363]Well, and I think one of the biggest skills that they can,
[00:23:01.511]that grad students can hone is separating
[00:23:07.280]that problem commemoration from problem solving.
[00:23:10.470]Mm-hmm. Like
[00:23:11.303]what does this actually look like in action?
[00:23:14.730]What's the result of the discussion?
[00:23:18.150]Like what's the change in the world that we want to make?
[00:23:21.485]And then how do you plan for that?
[00:23:24.510]And that might not be like
[00:23:26.610]they themselves doing that planning,
[00:23:30.390]but being involved in what are those action items, right?
[00:23:34.980]Like how do we move from, "Okay, this is our problem.
[00:23:40.932]Okay, how are we solving it?"
[00:23:43.056]And I think that to one of your earlier points,
[00:23:46.860]you can't build your entire CV
[00:23:49.170]or your entire letter of application.
[00:23:51.930]Yeah. Around leadership,
[00:23:52.860]but you can say, "Look, in terms of my leadership",
[00:23:55.950]if that's something that they're wanting
[00:23:57.270]in that job posting, "I believe in actionable items,
[00:24:00.810]I believe in really thinking through how to solve
[00:24:04.560]a problem through a series of actionable steps."
[00:24:07.463]And so even if, because as a grad student,
[00:24:12.240]you may not have the opportunity to enact those steps,
[00:24:15.240]but really thinking through
[00:24:17.240]what would I do in this situation?
[00:24:19.920]And being careful to like, leadership sucks.
[00:24:23.714]Yeah, sometimes. You know, like,
[00:24:26.828]it's not always,
[00:24:30.665]I mean, we can both say that
[00:24:32.310]because we've had a lot of therapy.
[00:24:34.290](Guy laughing) Yes.
[00:24:36.000]Right. Around that.
[00:24:36.833]Yes.
[00:24:37.666]So, but like, it's not easy.
[00:24:41.910]Yeah, and many of us do not get into academic lives
[00:24:46.751]to go into leadership.
[00:24:49.140]Mm-hmm. We go into academic lives
[00:24:50.730]because we love thinking about how kids learn.
[00:24:53.610]We get into it
[00:24:54.900]because we wanna make sure we create great teachers
[00:24:59.640]that go out there and change the world.
[00:25:01.770]We want to write about our experiences
[00:25:04.320]and do some research and share it with the universe.
[00:25:07.303]Mm-hmm. And so leadership
[00:25:09.660]is an avenue
[00:25:10.500]that many of us don't think about when we get into this,
[00:25:13.620]I did not get into academic life to become a leader.
[00:25:16.410]It happened along the way a few times,
[00:25:18.630]but that was not my goal, so.
[00:25:20.370]A few times. A few times.
[00:25:22.140]But check out his CV.
[00:25:23.460]It's ridiculous, he's lying right now.
[00:25:25.890]Not so much. But okay.
[00:25:27.630]But as a graduate student,
[00:25:30.150]I wanna take it somewhere else for a second
[00:25:32.490]because I wanna say that one of the things
[00:25:34.890]you have to learn to do
[00:25:36.300]is actually you have to learn to follow and watch.
[00:25:39.094]I spent my first few years as a young faculty member,
[00:25:43.290]just watching my leaders, watching their moves, good or bad,
[00:25:47.130]watching how everybody else is reacting.
[00:25:49.440]So I was almost an ethnographer in faculty meetings,
[00:25:52.500]for example.
[00:25:53.561]I was almost an ethnographer.
[00:25:54.880]I was less interested in the content to a degree
[00:25:58.597]because I was young,
[00:26:00.030]I did not fully understand what was going on
[00:26:02.310]or how we were in a period of transition.
[00:26:04.710]And that's really,
[00:26:05.980]it's really interesting to watch periods of transition
[00:26:08.790]because there's people who have been there for a while
[00:26:11.010]who are, some of them resisting change,
[00:26:12.959]some of them championing change.
[00:26:15.176]And you, I just walked in into that change.
[00:26:18.570]So I'm like, "I don't know which side is up."
[00:26:20.370]So I'm just sit here.
[00:26:21.701]Switzerland.
[00:26:22.982]Yes.
[00:26:24.883]Sit here and watch.
[00:26:27.150]So the ability to watch leaders and say,
[00:26:29.617]"Here's the practice that I really like.
[00:26:31.770]Here's something", I had for example, as a graduate student,
[00:26:34.730]worked with Bob Calfee, and he was a new dean.
[00:26:41.220]So it was new to him, he was associate dean at Stanford,
[00:26:43.890]he came to UC Riverside.
[00:26:45.750]And he was complete transparency
[00:26:48.210]to the point where it was uncomfortable at times
[00:26:50.490]because the transparency included
[00:26:52.795]the health situation of his wife and all of these things.
[00:26:56.010]Oh yeah. It was
[00:26:57.180]somewhat uncomfortable.
[00:26:58.140]It's not something that I would recommend.
[00:26:59.940]But he had radical, radical transparency.
[00:27:05.220]He shared everything.
[00:27:06.240]There was an email at the end of every week to the faculty
[00:27:10.950]and to the graduate students that worked with him
[00:27:13.380]that laid everything out,
[00:27:15.270]everything happening in the college,
[00:27:16.913]everything that was making moves.
[00:27:20.430]And again, as a new graduate student,
[00:27:23.850]I was a master student at the point,
[00:27:26.610]that was a little jarring.
[00:27:28.020]I've never seen that kind of radical candor,
[00:27:30.420]but it worked really well, he was fairly open.
[00:27:33.984]It did not mean that everything went smoothly.
[00:27:37.410]He actually had quite a few scuffle with faculty
[00:27:41.700]who did not appreciate that candor,
[00:27:43.140]but also did not appreciate other things.
[00:27:45.210]So their response was not it,
[00:27:47.400]radical candor does not necessarily make everything better,
[00:27:50.100]but there's something about learning about transparency
[00:27:52.320]and also what goes wrong
[00:27:53.538]if you have faculty member that's mentoring you,
[00:27:56.300]talking about these things
[00:27:58.203]is probably going to be helpful.
[00:28:00.660]To get their perspective,
[00:28:01.740]it doesn't mean you have to adapt it
[00:28:03.240]because they may have healthy or unhealthy observations,
[00:28:06.141]but talking about it is really, really important
[00:28:10.110]because you learn,
[00:28:10.943]because you learn some things you don't necessarily know
[00:28:13.320]from just observing.
[00:28:14.610]So.
[00:28:15.480]Yeah.
[00:28:16.363]And I think that like finding mentorship
[00:28:18.450]or being aware of what moves do you find,
[00:28:23.400]what practices do you find particularly useful, right,
[00:28:28.170]as you're looking across a wide variety of leadership
[00:28:31.327]styles.
[00:28:32.760]I mean, there's no one way to engage in leadership.
[00:28:37.050]There's some really clear ways
[00:28:39.240]to engage in leadership badly.
[00:28:40.553]Yes, and yeah, and going back to that,
[00:28:43.730]it really determines who you are because,
[00:28:46.235]and not just from a power perspective,
[00:28:49.620]but if you are from a minoritized community,
[00:28:52.710]it is much harder for women,
[00:28:54.090]and they have to act in different ways.
[00:28:56.160]There's all of these complexities around who you are
[00:28:59.370]that impacts the way you can project leadership
[00:29:02.232]that you have to think about.
[00:29:03.930]And you want to look for people that are making those moves,
[00:29:07.800]because when I came, when I was, for example,
[00:29:12.690]again, going back to my example with Bob Calfee,
[00:29:15.242]he was a veteran of many years,
[00:29:18.673]he has published large amounts, he had grants,
[00:29:22.950]he had a lot of power, he was dean.
[00:29:25.257]So he was able to project
[00:29:27.090]and lead in ways that are very, very different
[00:29:30.240]than you will as a new, as faculty members just hired,
[00:29:34.547]and part of the description is,
[00:29:36.540]and you've gotta lead this teacher education program.
[00:29:39.690]Good luck.
[00:29:40.523]Well, yeah, and the good luck part,
[00:29:43.257]'cause chances are
[00:29:45.030]if you take on these leadership positions.
[00:29:46.537]Yeah.
[00:29:47.739]What I find interesting
[00:29:49.290]having been at several institutions
[00:29:51.150]is they're all ahistorical.
[00:29:54.450]Yes.
[00:29:55.283]So like, it's like reset.
[00:29:57.630]It's like Mario has died and this is the next life.
[00:30:01.113](imitating Super Mario introduction song)
[00:30:03.341](Guy laughing)
[00:30:05.025]I was wondering which Mario you were talking about,
[00:30:07.860]but now I understand.
[00:30:09.544]And so it's like, okay, I have this game restart.
[00:30:14.490]Yeah.
[00:30:15.323]What is exactly happening, right?
[00:30:17.253]Yes. So like.
[00:30:18.810]So which is kind of both a blessing and a curse
[00:30:22.294]in terms of like,
[00:30:25.408]when we're thinking about like adaptation,
[00:30:27.903]right, part of leadership is adapting to.
[00:30:30.540]Yeah. Both the changing
[00:30:32.649]roles of academic institutions
[00:30:36.330]and then also thinking about the changing roles of,
[00:30:39.510]for us in particular, teacher education.
[00:30:42.148]We have pipeline issues,
[00:30:44.190]we've got questions around enrollment,
[00:30:48.983]and the old ways of doing stuff isn't going to work.
[00:30:55.080]So how do we adapt moving forward?
[00:30:59.895]How have you, as someone who's been in academia for.
[00:31:04.740]A while. A little bit of time.
[00:31:06.453]You young one you.
[00:31:08.888]How have you kind of developed innovative mindsets
[00:31:15.240]to support innovative work?
[00:31:17.475]What does that mean to you?
[00:31:19.590]Well, I always leverage the change around us
[00:31:25.500]to help people think about,
[00:31:27.630]because there is this instinct always,
[00:31:30.720]especially of large institutions, to stay the way they are.
[00:31:33.390]I mean, the simplest way to think about it is
[00:31:38.400]how do we create next spring schedule?
[00:31:41.910]We take the previous skin schedule
[00:31:44.160]and just project it forward and then say,
[00:31:45.817]"What do you want to change?"
[00:31:47.160]And sometimes that's a really bad way
[00:31:49.260]because you're just tinkering with the edges of change.
[00:31:51.990]Instead of saying, "What has changed in the world?
[00:31:55.260]How are we going to respond to it?
[00:31:57.510]Or how are we going to be part of it?"
[00:31:59.910]So I've always, I always like to change.
[00:32:04.800]I always like to move
[00:32:05.910]because I think that we are way too satisfied with the ways
[00:32:10.101]higher education has been and teacher education has been.
[00:32:14.250]And the world is radically different
[00:32:17.160]than it was 20 something years ago when I came here,
[00:32:19.980]and we've gone through at least two phases of change.
[00:32:22.710]A major change, for example, in elementary education,
[00:32:25.350]but even in the department and in the school.
[00:32:27.870]And we need more of those.
[00:32:29.910]We need to actually have somewhat continual change
[00:32:32.520]because we are in conversation with the society we serve.
[00:32:35.670]And if you're teaching,
[00:32:36.990]I dunno, maybe if you're teaching philosophy,
[00:32:41.142]you can change a little bit slower.
[00:32:43.320]But we are working in the real world,
[00:32:45.270]we are sending our students. In real time.
[00:32:46.380]In real time.
[00:32:48.060]As they are here, they're going to schools.
[00:32:50.820]So if we are behind what schools are doing,
[00:32:54.200]that is a problem for us.
[00:32:56.310]We need to be a little bit ahead.
[00:32:58.020]Yeah, we really need to.
[00:32:59.117]Definitely with. We need to forecast.
[00:33:00.453]Yes. Right, like.
[00:33:01.477]And think about and explore and be ready to fail.
[00:33:05.610]And this is really
[00:33:06.960]where we are averse to failure on our personal leadership,
[00:33:11.460]but we are also averse to leader when we make changes,
[00:33:14.520]everybody succeeds through iteration,
[00:33:16.200]not through trying to plan the ultimate perfect move.
[00:33:19.800]There is no perfect move out there
[00:33:21.660]for any academic plan.
[00:33:24.187]Yeah, no.
[00:33:25.341]I've recently come across a phrase that
[00:33:27.748]you'll hear me use a lot. All right.
[00:33:29.940]It's called get go.
[00:33:32.414]Okay.
[00:33:33.780]Get go. Get go.
[00:33:34.980]Essentially it means good enough to go.
[00:33:37.410]Oh, okay.
[00:33:38.779]Like there is no perfect plan.
[00:33:41.130]No. There
[00:33:41.963]is no perfect initiative.
[00:33:43.890]Perfection does not exist.
[00:33:45.720]It's the satin line coffin of productivity.
[00:33:48.720]Right, like this specter of perfection.
[00:33:51.420]And it really does screw with our ideas about innovation.
[00:33:55.947]Yes. Right.
[00:33:57.283]And thinking about,
[00:34:00.029]whenever I'm thinking about innovation in particular,
[00:34:04.633]I always like to think through is it something that we value
[00:34:09.711]or is it something that we live?
[00:34:12.420]'Cause if it's something that we value, we admire it.
[00:34:15.390]It's like the Mona Lisa and the Louvre,
[00:34:17.193](Guy laughing) right,
[00:34:18.026]like it's much smaller. Yes.
[00:34:19.800]In real life. Yes, it is.
[00:34:20.883]Than we think.
[00:34:22.560]And you can admire something without actually doing it.
[00:34:27.961]Yeah.
[00:34:29.100]And so like, when I'm thinking about innovation,
[00:34:32.646]I was like the negotiation of the ideal to the reality.
[00:34:36.750]Like that's the fun part for me in anything and research
[00:34:40.560]and whatever, cooking.
[00:34:44.190]Yeah.
[00:34:45.023]What do I have in my pantry and what do I want to eat
[00:34:46.650]and how do I negotiate those two things to come to
[00:34:49.352]a happy medium? Yeah.
[00:34:51.575]So like innovation, I tend to think about,
[00:34:55.114]it doesn't have to be a new computer system,
[00:34:57.990]it doesn't have to be a battery run,
[00:34:59.490]it doesn't have to be Tesla, right.
[00:35:01.260]It has to be a way of thinking about existing resources
[00:35:05.294]and remixing those existing resources
[00:35:07.740]to create a different approach to a problem.
[00:35:11.940]Mm-hmm.
[00:35:13.140]And it needs to be, in my mind,
[00:35:15.360]it needs to be radical enough,
[00:35:17.366]and I use that word carefully,
[00:35:19.530]that it actually makes a change.
[00:35:21.780]And it's not something that looks like change,
[00:35:24.750]but it's really, again, tinkering at the edges.
[00:35:27.060]It's gotta be real change.
[00:35:28.620]And I go back as I do sometimes to Steve Jobs,
[00:35:33.240]despite what we said, not to learn from my style,
[00:35:36.600]but being unafraid
[00:35:39.445]as you are walking into the scratch moment,
[00:35:42.840]we're starting from scratch,
[00:35:44.160]not to build the same thing all over again to do something.
[00:35:47.190]And sometimes you get resistance, people are saying,
[00:35:49.387]"But we've had this program for a long time
[00:35:51.630]and it has always worked
[00:35:53.100]and we're gonna lose a few students."
[00:35:54.971]Or whatever it is that's going to happen is an outcome,
[00:35:59.100]and you have to say, this is a much better solution,
[00:36:01.590]we have to build it and we have to try it.
[00:36:03.750]And yes, there will be consequences to that.
[00:36:07.170]We can't do everything all the time.
[00:36:09.708]If we do something new, we need to do away with the old.
[00:36:13.753]And I think a skill,
[00:36:15.510]another skill like grad students can work through
[00:36:17.610]as they're thinking about leadership
[00:36:19.140]is so much of it's about persuasion.
[00:36:20.970]Yes. So much of it
[00:36:22.110]is about building up that case, appealing to emotions,
[00:36:26.970]which academics kind of, that's not how we deal.
[00:36:31.110]Like we have objective facts
[00:36:33.120]and I am going to wow you with my literature review
[00:36:35.490]and look at all my tables,
[00:36:37.710]but ultimately at the end of the day, guy.
[00:36:40.500]Yeah.
[00:36:41.700]You're going to engage with me
[00:36:43.530]in the revision of a program wide lesson plan template
[00:36:46.950]in whatever form that is,
[00:36:48.240]because you care about the fact that our teacher candidates
[00:36:52.756]are best prepared to enact instruction in classrooms
[00:36:56.670]after they leave us.
[00:36:58.429]Yeah.
[00:37:00.120]Am I persuading you.
[00:37:01.145]A little bit?
[00:37:02.370]I'm actually persuaded.
[00:37:03.685]The lesson plan thing, (Nick laughing)
[00:37:04.950]I'm a 100% with you.
[00:37:07.181]Yes!
[00:37:08.960]But that's part of that conversation
[00:37:12.449]that I think has to happen over time.
[00:37:15.138]And so before we move to kind of summarize
[00:37:21.900]and. Before we wrap it up
[00:37:23.760]in a big nice bow. Yeah.
[00:37:25.246]Which is your job, by the way.
[00:37:26.850]I've noticed. Oh, nice.
[00:37:28.201]Yeah. Okay.
[00:37:29.220]Just preempting this.
[00:37:31.470]But, well, let's talk about simple opportunities
[00:37:35.070]for graduate students to actually, we talked about observe,
[00:37:39.056]but to actually act in these small roles of leadership.
[00:37:43.440]What are some of the opportunities you think about?
[00:37:45.780]Let me think about that.
[00:37:47.040]So one of the most formative leadership
[00:37:51.383]experiences I had as a grad student at Indiana
[00:37:55.080]was within my coursework,
[00:37:57.943]within the coursework that I taught, let me say that.
[00:38:03.337]Yeah, that's better.
[00:38:05.838]I was not given free reign.
[00:38:07.857]Yeah. Of course.
[00:38:09.116]And I worked in this weird but wonderful space
[00:38:12.630]where I was shared,
[00:38:14.844]my literacy course was shared by special ed,
[00:38:18.181]but also regular L.ed majors.
[00:38:21.332]And so I had two kind of departments to navigate,
[00:38:28.530]I was very much like an Emily Fisher in that way.
[00:38:31.410]And I was very clearly given like,
[00:38:36.060]okay, this is what has to be here.
[00:38:37.588]Yeah. But this is
[00:38:38.910]where you can play. Mm-hmm.
[00:38:40.714]And I was given that permission to play.
[00:38:43.592]And the thing that was so brilliant about that
[00:38:47.128]on their behalf was, okay, how are you playing
[00:38:51.026]and what are you noticing
[00:38:52.950]in terms of student learning in your coursework?
[00:38:56.430]Because we've noticed there's some different things,
[00:38:59.310]like students in your class do things differently
[00:39:02.550]and think about things differently than these other classes.
[00:39:07.071]How could you package that and share that?
[00:39:10.500]Like are there things that you are doing
[00:39:12.909]that we could implement in these other courses?
[00:39:18.657]And that empowerment. Mm-hmm.
[00:39:21.761]Like, one, there's the ability to like think through
[00:39:25.260]what are the things that I have some control over.
[00:39:27.750]Yeah.
[00:39:28.583]And what are some things that I can be playing with
[00:39:30.570]in terms of increasing my student outcomes,
[00:39:34.200]et cetera, et cetera within coursework,
[00:39:35.820]if you have that opportunity,
[00:39:36.720]or if you are working on a research project,
[00:39:38.910]what are some things that you yourself can.
[00:39:41.490]Yeah. Take on
[00:39:42.798]and think through with that leadership.
[00:39:47.244]And if you are,
[00:39:49.800]because I've now quite a few graduate students
[00:39:52.500]who are working with me on different projects,
[00:39:55.560]if you don't get an opportunity to lead anything,
[00:39:58.967]try to find something that you would like to lead
[00:40:01.740]and go to your faculty member, a principal investigator,
[00:40:06.570]whatever it may be, and say,
[00:40:07.957]"Hey, I'd like to have this experience.
[00:40:10.289]Is there an opportunity for me to do?"
[00:40:12.840]And here's a suggestion,
[00:40:13.920]come with a suggestion of something you could do.
[00:40:16.251]I've had a lot of graduate students, for example,
[00:40:18.931]lead a research project,
[00:40:20.490]an element of the research project and lead the analysis
[00:40:27.120]and work with a team.
[00:40:29.010]So it's not just you that is doing the analysis,
[00:40:31.350]but there's a group of three or four,
[00:40:32.640]but you are setting the tone.
[00:40:34.110]That's a great opportunity.
[00:40:35.700]And if you are working with teachers
[00:40:39.060]and you're going out to schools, it's an opportunity.
[00:40:41.250]Again, going back to that coaching thing,
[00:40:43.329]there's an opportunity there,
[00:40:45.646]there are opportunities with graduate students associations
[00:40:49.975]and other student organizations, committees.
[00:40:52.950]There are opportunities out there
[00:40:54.840]to serve the people we work with,
[00:40:57.330]but also to have an experience with leadership that,
[00:41:00.954]again, will not take over your life.
[00:41:03.060]And I've seen a lot of students do that.
[00:41:05.100]If there's a student journal that works,
[00:41:08.031]help organize, create, lead those,
[00:41:13.307]our university has a student publication
[00:41:18.960]that's a great opportunity.
[00:41:20.100]Help run a conference. Yeah.
[00:41:21.363]But also think through non-systemic ways to do that.
[00:41:23.880]Right.
[00:41:24.882]So like, let's say that you've identified a need
[00:41:27.000]amongst your fellow grad students around,
[00:41:28.920]oh, we wanna know more about this.
[00:41:32.280]So like in grad school,
[00:41:34.851]my friend Anne had a like reading club
[00:41:38.880]that she started a round action research.
[00:41:41.670]Yeah.
[00:41:43.278]That we were then enacting in our coursework.
[00:41:44.888]And that was a really powerful example of she saw a problem,
[00:41:50.340]she took some leadership, she pulled us together,
[00:41:53.400]that had nothing to do with our program.
[00:41:55.200]Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:56.033]But it's an opportunity.
[00:41:56.866]It's an opportunity,
[00:41:58.416]and it was something that she could then talk about.
[00:41:59.880]Yeah. Later on.
[00:42:00.713]So.
[00:42:01.890]And that's what I wanna end with, I think,
[00:42:04.359]and that is, doing all the work is great,
[00:42:07.350]but you have to find a way to make it clear on your CV
[00:42:10.650]and even more so in your letter,
[00:42:12.510]because that's the place where you can flesh it out
[00:42:14.610]and actually give it enough
[00:42:16.860]that the people reading it on the other side will go,
[00:42:19.237]"Oh, here are some leadership skills."
[00:42:21.540]And you have to understand,
[00:42:23.100]when we are looking at people applying for jobs,
[00:42:25.770]we understand that if you just graduated from a program,
[00:42:28.770]you had limited opportunities for leadership.
[00:42:31.140]You were not dean, you were not department chair.
[00:42:34.380]Right, but you didn't have a dearth
[00:42:35.960]of opportunities to lead as well.
[00:42:36.971]Yes, but we wanna see something.
[00:42:38.910]And so that notion of like,
[00:42:41.520]it doesn't have to be something structural,
[00:42:43.830]it could be something that you, yourself created.
[00:42:46.620]Mm-hmm.
[00:42:47.453]But being able to point to specific instances
[00:42:50.070]where you yourself have enacted practices
[00:42:54.030]where you've engaged in clear, honest, kind conversation,
[00:42:58.797]where you have built and led part of a team,
[00:43:02.340]whether that's an official institutional team
[00:43:05.670]or it's a group of your fellow grad students
[00:43:08.070]and you are all reading a particular book
[00:43:10.530]to make sense of something
[00:43:11.363]that's not covered in your coursework.
[00:43:13.270]Or, and you are able to think through about,
[00:43:17.130]you're able to think about how you're adapting those skills
[00:43:20.108]for a variety of different contexts.
[00:43:23.430]Like that's what we're looking for.
[00:43:25.260]Yeah. We're not looking for like,
[00:43:27.820]leadership I tend to think about as kind of like a,
[00:43:31.005]it's like air we breathe, right?
[00:43:33.180]Like it's not the content, it's the stuff,
[00:43:35.340]like it's kind of invisible,
[00:43:37.050]but being able to point to particular practices
[00:43:39.540]is going to be helpful.
[00:43:40.831]And as institutions continue to respond to current climate,
[00:43:46.839]both literally and figuratively.
[00:43:49.435]I think we're gonna see more of this
[00:43:53.070]kind of stuff popping up. Yeah.
[00:43:54.990]In job ads.
[00:43:56.130]So hopefully, hopefully.
[00:43:59.760]This is it.
[00:44:00.593]We've provided something of value as you know,
[00:44:04.577]what to avoid.
[00:44:06.442]And what to do. What to run into, you know.
[00:44:10.080]So,
[00:44:11.760]yeah.
[00:44:12.780]Oh, also, we're out of practice, season two.
[00:44:16.500]I'm Nick Esby,
[00:44:17.556]associate professor of elementary literacy education
[00:44:21.090]here at UNL.
[00:44:22.386]And this has been Guy (indistinct),
[00:44:25.380]full professor of everything.
[00:44:27.527](Guy laughing) (upbeat ambient music)
[00:44:29.910]Not quite everything, but quite a few things.
[00:44:32.130]And we are both not that kind of doctor
[00:44:34.530]and very out of practice.
[00:44:36.240]We'll see you next time.

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Not That Kind of Doctor - Leadership

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