Verbing Science! with Beata Mierwa
Curt Bright
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02/09/2023
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4. Beata Mierzwa, “The Splendor in our Cells”
Have you heard the expression “can’t see the forest for the trees”? One of the biggest challenges in science is holding the forest AND the trees in your mind at the same time. Whether their trees are actually chromosomes in a cell, specific experiments that reveal small pieces of a much larger puzzle, or even literal trees in a literal forest, scientists are continually toggling between the big picture and the small picture – paying attention to the details of their work, but never losing sight of how those details relate to the overarching questions they’re trying to answer. In this episode, molecular biologist, artist, and fashion designer Dr. Beata Mierzwa uses examples from her research on cell division to explain how her art has helped her think about the relationship of the part to the whole, and how the snapshots she takes of chromosomes are little windows into big questions about how cells “know” what to do when.
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- [00:00:00.200](upbeat music)
- [00:00:07.380]You heard the expression
- [00:00:08.617]"Can't see the forest for the trees".
- [00:00:12.000]One of the biggest challenges in scientific research
- [00:00:14.400]is holding the forest and the trees in your mind
- [00:00:17.220]at the same time.
- [00:00:19.440]Whether their trees are actually chromosomes in a cell
- [00:00:23.010]specific experiments that reveal small pieces of a much
- [00:00:26.190]larger puzzle or even literal trees in a literal forest.
- [00:00:31.410]Scientists are continually toggling between the big picture
- [00:00:34.830]and the small picture of their research.
- [00:00:37.410]Paying attention to the details of their work,
- [00:00:39.510]but never losing sight of how those details relate
- [00:00:42.030]to the overarching questions and concepts
- [00:00:44.520]they're trying to understand.
- [00:00:47.010]In this episode, molecular biologist, Dr. Beata Mierzwa
- [00:00:50.730]uses examples from her research on cell division
- [00:00:53.290]to explain how her work as an artist and a fashion designer
- [00:00:57.090]has helped her think about the relationship of the part
- [00:00:59.460]to the whole and how the snapshots she takes of chromosomes
- [00:01:03.090]are little windows into big questions about how cells
- [00:01:06.240]know what to do when.
- [00:01:08.880]I'm Jocelyn and let's get verbing.
- [00:01:11.120](upbeat music)
- [00:01:19.827]Compare sequences, often people in science
- [00:01:22.320]compare sequences between, you know worms and humans
- [00:01:24.510]and mice and maybe plants as well
- [00:01:26.850]to see how much is actually very similar.
- [00:01:28.650]So if you look at a gene, you can really, very often really
- [00:01:31.200]tell the similarity between it.
- [00:01:32.820]And I was first really surprised by that.
- [00:01:34.920]But then as I got to think about it
- [00:01:36.330]and this is where the cell division comes in
- [00:01:37.650]I thought there have got to be so many genes
- [00:01:40.170]that are just devoted to cell division
- [00:01:43.230]and how cell division happens
- [00:01:45.150]and like the basic, so-called basic,
- [00:01:47.100]mechanism of cell division.
- [00:01:48.210]So, in that sense, like the structures of the cell
- [00:01:50.910]and the processes of the cell and the way they divide.
- [00:01:53.520]I mean, if that's in common between us and a banana
- [00:01:56.250]then it's really not surprising that that would mean
- [00:01:58.620]we have a bunch of genes in common.
- [00:02:02.280]Definitely, yeah, and you know, there's a lot of aspects
- [00:02:05.250]like when you think of it from the point of view of a cell,
- [00:02:07.230]you have to make two out of one.
- [00:02:08.820]So there's so many things that have to go into it,
- [00:02:11.640]you know, you have to control it in a way,
- [00:02:13.110]you have to copy the DNA,
- [00:02:14.220]you have to make sure everything is fine.
- [00:02:15.780]You have to, you know segregate the chromosomes to make sure
- [00:02:18.090]that each cell receives the correct set of DNA
- [00:02:20.040]and things like that.
- [00:02:20.873]So, there's a lot of things that, you know,
- [00:02:22.050]when you look at a picture or even like a graph of it,
- [00:02:24.180]it kind of looks pretty simple,
- [00:02:25.770]but there's a lot of things that can go wrong.
- [00:02:28.020]And it's amazing all of those mechanisms that have evolved
- [00:02:31.200]to make it as efficient and as, you know,
- [00:02:33.960]as easy as possible for the set to divide.
- [00:02:36.600]Right, it becomes amazing that it ever goes right
- [00:02:39.270]rather than that it sometimes goes wrong.
- [00:02:41.269](laughing)
- [00:02:42.270]We always focus on, you know when it goes wrong,
- [00:02:44.190]but it's true.
- [00:02:45.030]There's a lot of layers to it and it goes and yeah
- [00:02:48.480]it's amazing how cells actually can cope
- [00:02:50.370]with different stresses and things like that
- [00:02:51.870]and still make sure that the division is fine.
- [00:02:54.900]So, I like what you said a little bit earlier.
- [00:02:57.480]You said that nature finds elegant solutions
- [00:03:00.360]to complex problems and that, that right there
- [00:03:03.450]was just elegant in itself.
- [00:03:04.860]But you know, it's funny because I think of evolution
- [00:03:08.220]I think of the processes going on in our bodies
- [00:03:10.020]like cell division or general relativity
- [00:03:11.970]or AOL dial-up right?
- [00:03:13.260]And I think we're just at the beginning as human beings
- [00:03:17.310]towards what we will one day learn and create
- [00:03:20.160]and all the progress we can make.
- [00:03:21.840]And I just feel like some people I, you know,
- [00:03:25.050]it's good to take a moment to just think on that
- [00:03:27.450]for a second.
- [00:03:28.283]Just silently think on we are just at the beginning
- [00:03:31.350]you know, and like nature has figured out a lot of stuff
- [00:03:35.070]and just had time to do that.
- [00:03:36.300]We have to give it props, you know, props to that.
- [00:03:38.970]It's like, it's had a lot of time to figure these
- [00:03:41.340]biological machines out.
- [00:03:42.600]But you know, we are just, as humans, we are kind of
- [00:03:45.213]I don't know, I mean we're smart but we're also
- [00:03:47.550]kind of dumb-dumbs when it comes to what's out there
- [00:03:51.210]and what, you know, one day we'll be able to figure out, so.
- [00:03:54.576]We are smart dumb-dumbs.
- [00:03:55.909](laughing)
- [00:03:58.050]But it reminds me too-
- [00:03:58.890]One thing is that, you know, we are made of this
- [00:04:01.260]this is happening inside of us.
- [00:04:02.610]So, that's what really fascinates me.
- [00:04:04.470]It's not something, you know, that a human came up with.
- [00:04:06.420]It's like a smart person came up with and that's, you know
- [00:04:09.450]the optimal version of how we can do it.
- [00:04:10.980]It's the more we dig deeper, the more we find,
- [00:04:13.170]you know, things that we have never even considered.
- [00:04:15.390]So that's what really fascinates me.
- [00:04:18.124]I think, I've said this before, I think,
- [00:04:20.130]but I feel the same way about a lot of like
- [00:04:22.080]nutrition studies and things like that because, you know,
- [00:04:24.810]forever we're identifying these isolated components
- [00:04:28.470]of foods and we're going like, oh this is the compound that
- [00:04:33.360]reduces your risk of x, y, z diseases
- [00:04:36.000]or something like that.
- [00:04:36.833]And then we keep identifying more and more compounds.
- [00:04:39.270]But it always seems like then the research comes back
- [00:04:41.190]to actually, if you take that out of like the whole food
- [00:04:44.130]it doesn't have the same effect because there's always,
- [00:04:45.840]no matter how many compounds we identify
- [00:04:47.400]and how many interactions we identify
- [00:04:49.020]there's always just, you know,
- [00:04:51.240]manifold more of them that we haven't identified yet,
- [00:04:53.880]ways that things interact with each other
- [00:04:55.290]and affect each other.
- [00:04:56.123]And so, I really can imagine what you're saying
- [00:04:58.530]about studying the cells in the environment
- [00:05:00.840]of the human body being a whole other ballgame.
- [00:05:03.330]And it's really exciting that there are starting to be some
- [00:05:05.070]technologies to do that.
- [00:05:06.840]Yeah, it's, everything is really connected.
- [00:05:08.550]That's one of the first things I realized.
- [00:05:11.550]That there's so many connections and also
- [00:05:12.687]you need to connect different scientific fields too,
- [00:05:14.880]to be able to, you know find out things that you would
- [00:05:17.460]never be able to see or you know,
- [00:05:19.530]come up with as a single person.
- [00:05:22.380]Right, and, you know, physicists, we look at the body
- [00:05:24.720]we're like, ah, we're just negative entropy machines.
- [00:05:27.090]And then like they're biologist, you know,
- [00:05:29.910]they look at it a more elegant way.
- [00:05:33.120]But you know, every time I get upset with my body, like,
- [00:05:36.150]you know, I'm running and I can't finish that last mile
- [00:05:38.460]'cause I'm running out of energy, I like to take a moment
- [00:05:40.680]and be like you know what this body of, you know
- [00:05:42.930]that we have is just an amazing machinery, you know,
- [00:05:46.830]of all these things going on with just cell division itself
- [00:05:50.280]is just, I can just sit there and just think upon it
- [00:05:53.190]for hours.
- [00:05:54.090]I think I like to think of Theseus' ship where it's like,
- [00:05:56.983]you know, you just in a given, you know,
- [00:05:59.670]year all these cells that died and cells they're replaced.
- [00:06:03.060]You know, are you the same person who you are
- [00:06:05.250]but you're constantly this emergent property of a collection
- [00:06:08.310]of living and dying and replicating cells
- [00:06:12.510]going over and over and all these organs and machineries
- [00:06:15.600]interacting yet they don't really, you know,
- [00:06:17.700]know too much of the other thing.
- [00:06:19.050]But it's all working together in a nice coherent system
- [00:06:21.540]usually, but ah, it's just, yeah.
- [00:06:24.870]Mind boggling.
- [00:06:26.400]I'm getting romantic and...
- [00:06:28.242]It's really beautifully said.
- [00:06:30.420]It's part of your charm, Brad.
- [00:06:32.343]And it is, it really is.
- [00:06:34.423]So, but to bring us back to some of your research Beata,
- [00:06:39.240]tell us a little bit, so your current research is focusing
- [00:06:41.220]on human cell division
- [00:06:43.080]and hang on, and how could those eventually help us
- [00:06:45.780]to develop better cancer therapies?
- [00:06:48.450]Yeah, so in my current research I study how different type
- [00:06:51.030]of human cells divide.
- [00:06:52.320]So, this is the potential to improve cancer therapy,
- [00:06:55.560]basically.
- [00:06:56.393]So, what that means that in our body we have a lot
- [00:06:58.410]of very different cell types.
- [00:06:59.610]They have different, you know, functions,
- [00:07:00.990]shapes and origins.
- [00:07:02.280]For example, immune cells are round cells, you know,
- [00:07:04.530]they circulate in the bloodstream and they divide, you know,
- [00:07:07.650]without attaching to anything.
- [00:07:09.780]And on the other hand, for example
- [00:07:10.890]we have cells in the skin or in other tissues
- [00:07:13.260]which is a very crowded environment.
- [00:07:14.610]So when they have to divide, they have to round up and
- [00:07:17.190]change the shape to make room for them to divide.
- [00:07:19.980]And so I am trying to discover genes that are important
- [00:07:22.620]for these cell type specific divisions.
- [00:07:24.540]How do different types of cells divide?
- [00:07:27.900]And I'm amazed that this is something that I have
- [00:07:29.760]never thought of before.
- [00:07:30.720]I mean, this is, I love it when that happens
- [00:07:33.600]when like someone poses a question or an area of study
- [00:07:36.540]and I'm like that seems like such an obvious thing
- [00:07:39.540]to think about you know, that like, of course
- [00:07:41.550]like skin cells are dividing in a different environment
- [00:07:44.910]than immune cells.
- [00:07:45.780]And so of course that process would look different.
- [00:07:47.850]Why did I never wonder that?
- [00:07:49.200]Why did I never ask that when I was learning
- [00:07:50.910]about cell division in eighth grade?
- [00:07:52.200]Why did I never think of that?
- [00:07:53.370]But it's such a great question and now that I have
- [00:07:55.890]thought of it, I wanna know all the answers.
- [00:07:58.110]Me too.
- [00:07:59.029](laughing)
- [00:07:59.862]Yeah, I feel like in the scientific literature in general,
- [00:08:02.970]you know, originally people have looked at it there
- [00:08:05.640]are really fundamental mechanisms like the thing that really
- [00:08:07.920]makes cell division work no matter where or what cells
- [00:08:10.740]and things like that.
- [00:08:11.573]But now when you look at it a little bit deeper
- [00:08:13.410]it's a little bit harder, you know, to study different types
- [00:08:15.090]of cells and it's a little bit more complex.
- [00:08:17.790]But I think you need both of those.
- [00:08:19.080]You need to understand, you know, the universal mechanisms
- [00:08:21.150]but you also need to understand how everything interacts
- [00:08:23.520]with each other and how different environments
- [00:08:25.440]make it different.
- [00:08:26.697](upbeat music)
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