Not That Kind of Doctor - Job Hunting, Part 1
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10/17/2022
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Fall is here, and you know what that means—it’s academic job market season! 🍂 Whether you’re a graduate student preparing for your first round of applications or just curious about how to navigate this confusing and stressful process, Guy and Nick have got you covered in this episode of Not That Kind of Doctor. They’ll break down the key strategies to help you manage the stress and make the most of your time.
🗣️ What You'll Learn:
How to develop a system for managing applications and deadlines
The importance of defining your job criteria (location, type of job, quality of life)
Strategies for networking and leveraging your professional connections
Why timing matters, and how to approach the academic job market cycle
The job market can feel overwhelming, but with some preparation and clear expectations, it doesn’t have to be. Whether you’re dealing with dissertation deadlines or just trying to keep sane through the process, Guy and Nick will help you figure it out.
Join us for some realistic tips and honest conversation about making it through the academic job hunt. 🎯
#JobMarketTips #AcademicCareers #GraduateStudents #FacultyPositions
#AcademicJobs #AcademicCareer #Academia #ZoomInterview #InterviewPrep #InterviewPreparation
Job Hunting, Part 1 - Not That Kind of Doctor with Nick Husbye and Guy Trainin
www.youtube.com/@tltenotthatkindofdoctor
Searchable Transcript
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- [00:00:00.219](upbeat music)
- [00:00:09.240]It's that time of year.
- [00:00:11.340]Do you know what time of year it is?
- [00:00:12.689]It's fall.
- [00:00:14.520]It's the most wonderful time of the year, Guy.
- [00:00:16.650]Is it? It is.
- [00:00:17.507]Right? Not just pumpkin spice.
- [00:00:19.830]Although that is important.
- [00:00:21.210]I mean, is it? Okay. Depends.
- [00:00:24.240]Do we really need to have like
- [00:00:25.200]pumpkin spiced frosted flakes?
- [00:00:27.240]No. At least Okay. But that's a thing.
- [00:00:28.470]I don't. That's a thing.
- [00:00:30.120]No, but it is job market time.
- [00:00:33.720]And by like most wonderful time of the year,
- [00:00:36.706]I mean stressful and confusing and
- [00:00:42.960]not always awesome.
- [00:00:44.850]And I think that's something
- [00:00:46.860]that I've always thought about ever since
- [00:00:48.510]I interviewed for the first time actually here,
- [00:00:51.990]was that it's confusing and somewhat stressful
- [00:00:55.644]both for the person looking for a job,
- [00:00:57.570]but also for the institution who's looking for somebody.
- [00:01:00.090]Because you're like, can we find the right person?
- [00:01:02.490]I mean, this is a long-term commitment to somebody.
- [00:01:07.020]And so everybody's stressed.
- [00:01:09.240]So no pressure job market.
- [00:01:10.893]No pressure.
- [00:01:11.726]No pressure at all, right?
- [00:01:14.069]And so if you are a graduate student looking to navigate
- [00:01:20.696]the academic job market for the first time,
- [00:01:25.230]we're going to in this podcast episode,
- [00:01:29.670]talk a bit about how to do that in a way
- [00:01:32.220]that isn't quite as stressful.
- [00:01:36.180]I mean, it's going to be stressful, don't get me wrong.
- [00:01:38.460]It is. It's going to be stressful.
- [00:01:39.840]But I think if you have some systems
- [00:01:42.870]and some ways of thinking about it,
- [00:01:45.510]that it becomes a little bit more manageable.
- [00:01:48.810]And so maybe you don't want to
- [00:01:50.610]constantly throw yourself off of a bridge every single time
- [00:01:54.030]a new posting comes out,
- [00:01:55.260]because sometimes that's what it feels like.
- [00:01:58.680]Yeah. And I think that there are two pieces to this.
- [00:02:01.290]One is what are your systems?
- [00:02:02.610]And the other one is how do you stay sane throughout that?
- [00:02:06.150]So what are your strategies just as self care,
- [00:02:10.492]new word we're all using right now,
- [00:02:12.600]or somewhat new term,
- [00:02:14.340]but really how do you find ways to survive
- [00:02:19.710]when you're waiting, when you don't know,
- [00:02:22.290]when you don't hear for weeks at a time
- [00:02:25.470]and you're wondering if they ever got your materials,
- [00:02:27.870]or if your rejected and you just didn't get that email,
- [00:02:32.100]or if they just hate you or whatever it is that happened.
- [00:02:35.340]You gotta have a strategy to deal.
- [00:02:36.258]Right. Well, and and this comes down to time, right?
- [00:02:40.893]Like the job market usually hits
- [00:02:45.570]late stage graduate students.
- [00:02:47.700]They're working on their dissertations.
- [00:02:50.070]They are... They've got all these pulls on their time.
- [00:02:52.380]And then to throw in one more thing on top of that,
- [00:02:57.810]because you...
- [00:02:59.799]One doesn't just do the job market.
- [00:03:02.340]You have to do the job market.
- [00:03:05.010]Like it becomes another job
- [00:03:07.710]that's gonna take five, six hours a week
- [00:03:12.660]on top of everything else that's already happening.
- [00:03:14.820]And so I think having some realistic expectations
- [00:03:17.790]around that is important.
- [00:03:20.430]And starting on time is important
- [00:03:22.230]because I think that what I often find
- [00:03:24.839]with graduate students is sometimes
- [00:03:27.570]because you're not sure where you are
- [00:03:29.040]and you're not sure how-
- [00:03:30.208]Are you gonna graduate this year?
- [00:03:32.490]Is it gonna take a little bit longer?
- [00:03:34.230]I have a sense that sometimes people start too late.
- [00:03:37.920]And so you have to think about timing
- [00:03:39.900]and you can start when you feel like
- [00:03:41.940]I'm not fully feeling it.
- [00:03:45.420]I mean, you can apply and just use it as a practice run.
- [00:03:49.140]So thinking about timing, it's like if I'm doing it
- [00:03:52.230]and I'm not gonna graduate on time,
- [00:03:53.760]or I'm a little early to market,
- [00:03:56.580]the practice is still good.
- [00:03:57.870]You're not losing points.
- [00:03:59.910]And so the thing that we probably want to talk about first
- [00:04:04.170]is this idea that the academic job market
- [00:04:06.930]doesn't operate like a regular job market,
- [00:04:09.870]although we have seen some shifts and changes
- [00:04:11.700]because of the pandemic related stuff.
- [00:04:14.190]But really there's two big seasons for job postings
- [00:04:17.760]in the academic world.
- [00:04:19.230]The first being in the fall,
- [00:04:21.180]typically right around early September,
- [00:04:26.820]up through probably about late October,
- [00:04:29.820]things start to taper off a little bit after that
- [00:04:32.310]as institutions get ready for the fall and winter breaks
- [00:04:37.770]and then again in the spring.
- [00:04:39.690]And so it's really important to keep in mind that
- [00:04:44.430]it's not as though jobs are posted year round.
- [00:04:47.130]Yeah, that is definitely true.
- [00:04:48.420]There are dry seasons when there's nothing out there.
- [00:04:51.197]Right. And so if you're thinking about a tenure track,
- [00:04:56.070]academic traditional job, this is your time.
- [00:05:00.750]Yeah. Right?
- [00:05:01.703]And so right now, if you are looking at that job market,
- [00:05:06.930]like one of the first things
- [00:05:08.910]you want to really be thinking about I think
- [00:05:11.220]is what are the things that are most important to you
- [00:05:16.050]in terms of where you're working
- [00:05:18.690]and beyond just institution?
- [00:05:21.600]Like what kind of life do you wanna lead?
- [00:05:24.330]Like how did you decide to come here?
- [00:05:25.770]Like what were the big things that played out in your head
- [00:05:28.474]as you're like, Nebraska? Yes.
- [00:05:31.050]Yeah. So I came out into the job market
- [00:05:35.157]in a really bad time, to be honest.
- [00:05:37.800]So, and like many international students,
- [00:05:41.310]I also had a big question in my head,
- [00:05:44.040]am I going back to where I came from in my case, Israel,
- [00:05:47.550]or am I going to stay in the United States?
- [00:05:49.470]And it was not clear cut.
- [00:05:50.790]I actually did a quite extensive job search in Israel
- [00:05:55.290]and got a few kind of signals that were positive,
- [00:06:00.990]but as I explore them, they were more negative.
- [00:06:03.570]And the American job market is very different
- [00:06:06.420]than other countries.
- [00:06:07.530]It's much more definite and it's much more systematic.
- [00:06:10.680]At least in Israel, it's much more connected
- [00:06:13.680]to who you know and jobs on the way.
- [00:06:16.470]So I got an offer for a non-tenure seeking job saying,
- [00:06:20.730]well, one- at one point or another,
- [00:06:22.680]this may turn into a tenure line job.
- [00:06:25.230]And I'm like, no, I have kids to feed.
- [00:06:27.990]I have life to think about.
- [00:06:31.020]And so I need a place where I know there's permanence.
- [00:06:33.870]And I think that was very important to me.
- [00:06:35.790]So they are the most important things to me.
- [00:06:38.760]Where am I getting a place where I can stay for a while?
- [00:06:42.810]Because especially in my case, being with a family,
- [00:06:46.500]you don't wanna start hopping.
- [00:06:47.850]If I was single and interested in research,
- [00:06:51.780]I may have gone for a postdoc, for example,
- [00:06:56.940]to build up my research resume.
- [00:06:58.740]It's really powerful.
- [00:07:00.030]But if you're dragging kids who need to go to school
- [00:07:02.400]and you're thinking, we're gonna be here a year or two
- [00:07:04.380]and then move to somewhere else,
- [00:07:05.670]and then job search and all of that,
- [00:07:07.440]that was too heavy for us as a family.
- [00:07:09.630]So we, and and it is,
- [00:07:10.950]I would argue the minute you are a unit,
- [00:07:13.320]you have to think with your partner,
- [00:07:15.480]you have to think about your kids,
- [00:07:17.526]other family members you're supporting potentially.
- [00:07:22.140]So, for me, that was that.
- [00:07:25.050]But I was coming out right after the dinosaur,
- [00:07:29.400]there was the.com boom.
- [00:07:32.400]And I, when that went bust,
- [00:07:35.130]that's when I went into the market.
- [00:07:36.690]Universities were struggling for money
- [00:07:38.790]and there were very few jobs out there.
- [00:07:41.070]And I actually had this decision point where
- [00:07:44.430]I can finish my dissertation this year
- [00:07:47.070]and go out into the market,
- [00:07:48.300]or I can wait a year and kind of stay at the university.
- [00:07:53.580]I had, there were enough things for me to do
- [00:07:56.580]to get an assistantship and wait another year
- [00:07:59.370]hoping that the market would open.
- [00:08:01.557]But another thing played into the job I got here,
- [00:08:04.560]and I've been here 20 years,
- [00:08:05.610]so it obviously worked out fine.
- [00:08:07.950]And that is, I had a colleague who graduated
- [00:08:11.220]a year before me and came here and said
- [00:08:14.070]you would be a really good fit.
- [00:08:16.200]We're already working together, we're writing together.
- [00:08:18.570]So I had a research partnership and a teaching partnership
- [00:08:21.570]because she taught the class.
- [00:08:22.980]I still teach, actually, we both teach right now.
- [00:08:25.710]And so I knew there would be somebody
- [00:08:28.410]who could also help me organize
- [00:08:30.390]and fit what I'm doing to what's happening here.
- [00:08:33.360]So I had kind of a leg up.
- [00:08:35.007]And that familiarity was critically important for me
- [00:08:37.986]because I didn't know,
- [00:08:39.870]even after four years of living in the United States,
- [00:08:42.840]going to the University of California, Riverside
- [00:08:45.150]I did not know enough
- [00:08:46.980]about the American university system
- [00:08:48.750]to actually make educated decisions.
- [00:08:51.150]I needed this podcast to tell me a little bit about it
- [00:08:53.684](Nicholas laughs)
- [00:08:54.517]because I really was making decisions mostly in a vacuum.
- [00:08:58.230]And unfortunately, to a certain degree,
- [00:09:01.200]the faculty that were around me were not that helpful.
- [00:09:07.620]We did not have a lot of conversations.
- [00:09:09.300]I think nowadays in graduate school,
- [00:09:11.250]we're having a lot more conversations with our students
- [00:09:13.740]about what are the options?
- [00:09:15.960]What does it look like?
- [00:09:17.220]What do different jobs look like?
- [00:09:18.720]How do you prepare?
- [00:09:20.340]And if you are a graduate student
- [00:09:22.830]and you're starting to think,
- [00:09:23.857]"I'm getting closer. You- I'm in candidacy
- [00:09:26.400]and I'm getting closer to the end,"
- [00:09:28.170]whatever opportunities the university gives you
- [00:09:31.260]to explore those things and get more insights, grab 'em.
- [00:09:36.210]Right. Well, and so one.
- [00:09:40.950]When haven't universities and/or colleges
- [00:09:43.050]been strapped for cash?
- [00:09:44.760]When is this stable time? They always tell that story.
- [00:09:47.310]I don't know that it's always true
- [00:09:49.440]that they're strapped for cash.
- [00:09:50.400]They always complain.
- [00:09:51.690]But at that point in time,
- [00:09:53.040]there were two ads in the Chronicle
- [00:09:57.660]for positions around literacy.
- [00:09:59.700]Two. Two, that was it.
- [00:10:01.423]Two. That was it?
- [00:10:02.940]Yeah. Wait.
- [00:10:03.773]So, I almost had not the exact opposite experience,
- [00:10:08.670]but I was looking for jobs on my own.
- [00:10:13.140]Like I had no one.
- [00:10:14.550]I had a Boston Terrier that like all she wanted
- [00:10:17.130]was a yard and like a walkable space.
- [00:10:20.220]Like those were her, those were her deal breakers, right?
- [00:10:23.190]So, some of the things
- [00:10:25.770]that as I've gone through a series of jobs,
- [00:10:31.170]some of the things I was thinking about were
- [00:10:32.370]like, location, where do I want to live?
- [00:10:34.620]Like what part of the country do I want to be in?
- [00:10:39.060]Right? And I was very wide this last search,
- [00:10:43.680]which is part of how I ended up here at Nebraska,
- [00:10:46.895]because I was looking for...
- [00:10:49.890]Location wasn't as important to me
- [00:10:52.050]as feeling like it was a good fit.
- [00:10:55.470]Yeah. Right.
- [00:10:56.430]So, but the opposite is completely true.
- [00:10:59.970]I know a lot of people who...
- [00:11:02.827]"I grew up in this particular city."
- [00:11:04.537]"I have this metro area as my like target."
- [00:11:08.280]And that's a perfectly valid choice.
- [00:11:10.110]But being aware that either of these choices
- [00:11:14.460]is going to impact, right, the jobs that you look at
- [00:11:19.320]and the postings that you focus in on.
- [00:11:23.010]Same thing with affordability, right? Like
- [00:11:28.800]there's some great schools out there,
- [00:11:30.840]but can you afford to live there comfortably
- [00:11:35.760]on what a college education professor makes?
- [00:11:39.450]And so yeah. Question.
- [00:11:41.100]And so I- My approach to that...
- [00:11:44.580]I mean, I understand if you tie to a specific location
- [00:11:47.640]because of family reasons and because of personal reasons,
- [00:11:53.220]I would tie that.
- [00:11:54.690]If you are not, I always advocate be a little bit wider
- [00:11:58.920]than you think you are, because the golden offer,
- [00:12:04.350]the offer that is the best fit for you
- [00:12:07.314]might not be to take something
- [00:12:09.270]from real estate in your exact neighborhood.
- [00:12:11.940]So when you watch all of these shows
- [00:12:13.200]and they're like, people say, I want that neighborhood.
- [00:12:15.600]Well, you know, there might be great offers
- [00:12:18.570]that are not that different that you're ruling out
- [00:12:21.660]because you're narrowing it down
- [00:12:23.370]and it also narrows down your options
- [00:12:26.370]because then you have a few places to choose from.
- [00:12:28.830]I mean, if you choose the...
- [00:12:30.210]I mean the greater Boston area gives you a lot of options,
- [00:12:32.970]but the greater Milwaukee area starts limiting your options
- [00:12:36.150]and the greater Nebraska area leaves you
- [00:12:39.360]with very few.
- [00:12:41.543]Right. And so, that matters.
- [00:12:44.280]And I think if location is what is most important to you,
- [00:12:47.430]I think you bring up a really good point
- [00:12:48.660]around your location plus an extra like what,
- [00:12:54.870]20 miles some arbitrary number, right?
- [00:12:57.720]But if that's gonna be your most important thing
- [00:13:02.190]so that you're not going through,
- [00:13:03.870]let's say it's a really good job posting year
- [00:13:06.840]and there's 80 different positions,
- [00:13:08.520]it's gonna allow you to weed through those a a bit quickly.
- [00:13:11.160]Remember, job market equals time that you don't have.
- [00:13:15.750]So you need to have filters to figure out
- [00:13:17.040]what you're actually looking at.
- [00:13:18.060]And location is one of those filters, you know?
- [00:13:20.610]Yeah, definitely.
- [00:13:21.810]And thinking about affordability,
- [00:13:23.580]what kind of quality of life do you wanna have?
- [00:13:26.790]And then we've kind of been focusing on
- [00:13:31.053]like tenure track jobs,
- [00:13:33.000]but there's other kinds of jobs that are out there.
- [00:13:35.190]Absolutely.
- [00:13:36.023]So professor of practice positions are pretty common.
- [00:13:40.353]Those tend to have a more of a teaching load
- [00:13:43.320]than a research load.
- [00:13:46.296]And so thinking about that as an option as well.
- [00:13:51.090]So, and what that essentially allows you to do
- [00:13:54.720]is think through, like I said before,
- [00:13:59.010]what job postings you're looking at.
- [00:14:01.620]'Cause you can't respond to them all.
- [00:14:04.410]No, you can't. And you don't want to.
- [00:14:06.540]It is overwhelming and it's a management nightmare.
- [00:14:10.380]And again, as you just said,
- [00:14:12.510]there are other things you're supposed
- [00:14:14.040]to be doing with your life at that point.
- [00:14:15.930]And it won't help if you've applied to 60 jobs,
- [00:14:19.770]but then you do not complete your dissertation
- [00:14:21.810]and now you're stuck on both ends. So.
- [00:14:24.060]Right. This balancing act of
- [00:14:26.790]you're taking time away from other projects
- [00:14:30.330]to do this like work thing.
- [00:14:34.320]So, I think tip number one,
- [00:14:37.110]the biggest tip that I think I can offer
- [00:14:40.920]is to know what you're looking for
- [00:14:43.260]and to have your criteria really well defined within reason
- [00:14:49.020]to help you understand what's most important to you
- [00:14:52.830]in your job search.
- [00:14:54.330]So thinking about location, quality of life, affordability,
- [00:14:58.795]the type of job that you want for your future.
- [00:15:02.280]I think that's the first big discussion you need to have
- [00:15:04.620]for yourself even before you start digging
- [00:15:08.940]into job market postings.
- [00:15:10.020]Yeah, you definitely do.
- [00:15:12.150]And one of the things that you can do to help that-
- [00:15:14.370]And if you are on the job market right now, that's too late.
- [00:15:18.060]But if you are a little bit earlier in the process
- [00:15:20.970]and you're still in the middle of your program
- [00:15:22.590]or even at the beginning,
- [00:15:23.880]a few things that you can do a lot earlier
- [00:15:26.190]is start looking at job postings
- [00:15:27.930]just to see what's out there
- [00:15:29.430]and what does it look like.
- [00:15:30.690]What are people looking for in your field?
- [00:15:33.540]Because that helps you to create the right opportunities
- [00:15:37.410]to make sure that you can actually apply to those jobs
- [00:15:40.740]and you have the right experiences.
- [00:15:42.330]The other thing is-
- [00:15:43.500]and this is where conferences-
- [00:15:44.760]and we're gonna talk about the conferences
- [00:15:46.650]and going to conferences at another time-
- [00:15:48.600]but conferences are critical in talking to people
- [00:15:52.020]from different institutions
- [00:15:53.730]and try to get a sense of the institution.
- [00:15:55.830]And I find for me personally, poster sessions are the best.
- [00:15:59.400]Because when people are standing and delivering,
- [00:16:01.770]they're not gonna talk about anything except the research.
- [00:16:04.410]But if you are stopping by somebody's poster
- [00:16:06.840]or any informal gathering and you just chat with them,
- [00:16:10.530]you will get their sense of their institution
- [00:16:12.861]and how happy or unhappy they are.
- [00:16:15.600]Now, you cannot judge any institution by one person
- [00:16:18.570]because at my institution,
- [00:16:20.460]which is one of the best in the world, no.
- [00:16:22.590]But it's a lovely place. Yes.
- [00:16:25.380]And there are some people who are not happy.
- [00:16:27.990]And there are some people who are really happy
- [00:16:29.610]and a lot of people are somewhere in the middle.
- [00:16:31.590]So one person doesn't tell you,
- [00:16:33.720]but sometimes you talk to people and they're like,
- [00:16:36.690]this does not sound like a place I would like to go to.
- [00:16:39.720]And so that at least gives you an indication
- [00:16:42.420]about some places, do I want to be there?
- [00:16:44.400]Do I not want to be there?
- [00:16:45.750]And we haven't talked about this,
- [00:16:47.610]but the kind of institution really matters.
- [00:16:50.700]So, institutions as they get closer
- [00:16:52.920]to the top of the ranking-
- [00:16:54.840]I'm not a huge believer in the ranking,
- [00:16:56.430]but they do play a role.
- [00:16:57.750]And the institutions in the top 10 tend to...
- [00:17:02.040]I'm probably gonna get email about this.
- [00:17:04.080]I'm ready, bring it on people.
- [00:17:05.790]Email him.
- [00:17:06.623]But yes. Email- I didn't say this.
- [00:17:08.370]whatever is about to be said here,
- [00:17:09.960]but I did not say this.
- [00:17:11.130]There seems to be a lot of pressure to perform early.
- [00:17:16.110]And so those-
- [00:17:18.810]Going to one of those institutions
- [00:17:21.390]that I will not name right now because I don't want to.
- [00:17:25.090]Baltimore University. Baltimore University.
- [00:17:28.170]They're just-
- [00:17:29.003]they're great places, but the pressure to publish,
- [00:17:32.280]to get things out really, really early
- [00:17:34.560]is really, really big.
- [00:17:35.580]For some people that's how they thrive.
- [00:17:38.160]And they have a lot of fun and they're hyper productive.
- [00:17:41.460]And that's great for them.
- [00:17:42.780]For other people, that's not necessarily for them.
- [00:17:46.650]And they run away.
- [00:17:47.880]I've known quite a few people
- [00:17:49.110]who went to those kind of places
- [00:17:50.490]and after a few years said,
- [00:17:51.757]"You know what, this is too much for me.
- [00:17:53.580]I'm going to be productive somewhere else
- [00:17:55.350]that it's a little bit mellower.
- [00:17:57.480]I'm still gonna be me."
- [00:17:58.590]Because at the end of the day, you are you,
- [00:18:00.630]and you're going to do your research.
- [00:18:03.273]The different institutions can support you
- [00:18:05.340]in different ways, but you are who you are.
- [00:18:08.940]And especially for somebody like me,
- [00:18:11.160]who also is thinking about family
- [00:18:13.230]and trying to create some kind of a balance
- [00:18:15.300]or some kind of a protected time,
- [00:18:17.640]that matters because in places with high pressure,
- [00:18:20.430]you're not gonna have that over the first few years.
- [00:18:22.830]Quality of life is important.
- [00:18:24.180]And quality of life.
- [00:18:25.059]that goes back to that. Quality of life
- [00:18:26.460]is important.
- [00:18:27.660]And knowing what you're getting into, right?
- [00:18:30.000]Before you apply somewhere.
- [00:18:33.720]So we've talked a little bit about like the pre-work
- [00:18:39.450]that you do before you actually start
- [00:18:41.844]going into the job market.
- [00:18:44.400]And now when we're thinking about finding jobs,
- [00:18:50.190]it's gotten more accessible, I feel.
- [00:18:54.930]Yes. I think it has. Like
- [00:18:56.340]even in the 12 years-
- [00:18:59.340]Wow, I'm old, oh my gosh.
- [00:19:01.560]12 years since I first went on the job market.
- [00:19:06.330]To like, now you have all these websites.
- [00:19:08.340]You have Chronicle Vitae. You have HigherEdJobs.
- [00:19:12.300]You have the Higher Education Recruitment Consortium,
- [00:19:15.090]Inside Higher Education.
- [00:19:16.260]There's all of these websites now that, you know
- [00:19:19.770]post all of these jobs for academic positions.
- [00:19:26.250]But there's also some other really interesting ways
- [00:19:29.910]to discover and find out about jobs
- [00:19:31.890]because of course, universities and and colleges
- [00:19:34.440]have to pay for those postings, right?
- [00:19:37.430]So different sites are going to offer different things,
- [00:19:41.040]but there's also the ability to leverage
- [00:19:44.100]those personal relationships that you build up
- [00:19:46.260]within your network in order to make that happen.
- [00:19:49.560]And it seems like that happened to you here at Nebraska.
- [00:19:52.470]Yeah, definitely.
- [00:19:54.270]And so what would be some tips that you would utilize
- [00:19:57.720]to leverage your professional network
- [00:20:01.110]in order to like help your job search?
- [00:20:04.560]So I think that there are a few things
- [00:20:07.980]that you can do really well.
- [00:20:09.210]And one of them is conferences.
- [00:20:11.790]Especially the conferences that really apply
- [00:20:14.310]where you find your people.
- [00:20:16.200]And again, we're not talking about conferences right now,
- [00:20:19.260]but you have to find the people that are doing the things
- [00:20:23.520]you're interested in doing.
- [00:20:25.260]And then you go to the conferences,
- [00:20:27.150]not necessarily the biggest conferences.
- [00:20:28.980]So ARA is our big conference, but it is too big
- [00:20:32.070]to really find people.
- [00:20:33.360]There are some strategies around that even.
- [00:20:35.790]But you want to go to the smaller conferences.
- [00:20:38.160]A side conference calls itself the friendly conference
- [00:20:40.620]because it's a few hundred people
- [00:20:42.450]and there's a pub crawl.
- [00:20:44.910]And so, eh-
- [00:20:46.380]Nothing says friendly like a pub crawl.
- [00:20:47.910]I guess.
- [00:20:48.750]But if it's friendly at the end of the night,
- [00:20:52.350]it means it's really friendly.
- [00:20:53.400]Okay.
- [00:20:55.470]I did not go.
- [00:20:56.303]So, you know, it's all good.
- [00:20:58.560]But you want to find those opportunities.
- [00:21:01.935]And this is really hard.
- [00:21:04.440]You've got to learn to network.
- [00:21:06.120]And that's sometimes uncomfortable,
- [00:21:07.890]especially for international students.
- [00:21:10.710]That's sometimes uncomfortable, I feel,
- [00:21:12.720]because you are not as connected to the culture.
- [00:21:15.570]You're not sure how to-
- [00:21:17.580]How do you dress for a conference?
- [00:21:19.830]What are the expectations if they-
- [00:21:22.080]If Michigan State has a party, are we supposed to go or not?
- [00:21:25.230]And all of that.
- [00:21:26.550]And who do you talk to in these places?
- [00:21:29.220]But you've gotta create these contacts,
- [00:21:31.350]you've gotta learn how to do that.
- [00:21:32.970]And you've gotta find somebody who's been there for a while.
- [00:21:35.490]So it's- That goes back to what I said before,
- [00:21:38.790]and that is the planning for getting the job
- [00:21:41.610]actually has to start long before you are on the job market.
- [00:21:44.850]You- If you want to rely on networks,
- [00:21:47.370]those networks can't start
- [00:21:48.900]in the fall you're starting to apply.
- [00:21:50.820]You really want to have them before.
- [00:21:53.070]So people send you a posting
- [00:21:55.020]because they came to your presentation you gave,
- [00:21:57.210]or they had a conversation with you
- [00:21:59.070]and they really like you.
- [00:22:01.191]I've been a member, this is actually an ARA example.
- [00:22:04.740]I've been a member of the special interest group
- [00:22:06.870]around motivation, research and motivation.
- [00:22:09.780]That's been a great group.
- [00:22:11.580]They have a dinner every ARA.
- [00:22:13.560]So that's an opportunity to interact in a informal way.
- [00:22:19.650]But even then you see that most people sit with
- [00:22:22.320]the people they already know.
- [00:22:23.520]It's like, this is the worst strategy ever
- [00:22:25.770]to talk to the two people you already knew.
- [00:22:28.080]It's like- And one of my strategies was, for example-
- [00:22:31.380]and this is who I am is a social butterfly-
- [00:22:33.270]but I actually changed my seat throughout dinner
- [00:22:36.510]so I can talk to lots of people.
- [00:22:37.430]Of course you do. Of course I do.
- [00:22:39.225]Of course you do.
- [00:22:40.058]And that also confuses the waiters,
- [00:22:42.030]which is even more fun.
- [00:22:44.580]But, but it's-
- [00:22:45.900]The ways you find joy.
- [00:22:47.670]Yes.
- [00:22:49.320]We gotta find it where we can.
- [00:22:51.330]But so conferences are a great way to start doing that.
- [00:22:56.160]But you want to build on that.
- [00:22:58.290]So the meeting at the conference
- [00:22:59.730]and a chat for 20 minutes with somebody is not enough.
- [00:23:02.220]If you can then email them, do.
- [00:23:05.640]Write a paper together or start a project together,
- [00:23:08.460]or just keep that contact going.
- [00:23:10.650]That's what's gonna get you
- [00:23:13.156]that somebody that sends you and says,
- [00:23:14.527]"Hey, we have this offer,
- [00:23:16.770]I think it'll be a good fit for you."
- [00:23:18.600]That is where the magic is.
- [00:23:20.505]Well, and even if it's not a direct connection.
- [00:23:22.260]Like if you're-
- [00:23:23.093]If your network knows that you're looking.
- [00:23:25.050]Like this, like the U N L job posting,
- [00:23:28.620]I got from multiple friends
- [00:23:31.980]in my network who were like, "Hey, is this you?"
- [00:23:34.380]Yeah.
- [00:23:35.213]And that was, that was interesting.
- [00:23:36.210]It made me really consider that this particular job,
- [00:23:41.160]maybe more than I would have otherwise, right?
- [00:23:44.850]And so again, work, this is work.
- [00:23:48.720]This is time away from-
- [00:23:50.490]Everything else.
- [00:23:51.323]Other things that you are supposed to be doing.
- [00:23:52.710]And so I think the first line of defense
- [00:23:57.900]as you're looking for a job is that networking
- [00:24:03.030]seems to be like a more passive,
- [00:24:04.740]like you've done the work now you're hoping that,
- [00:24:07.079]you know, people email you stuff.
- [00:24:08.700]But like checking those websites, checking those listings.
- [00:24:14.250]Not every day.
- [00:24:15.360]'Cause every day will drive you crazy.
- [00:24:18.150]It's kind of like watching the stock market every day.
- [00:24:21.360]You can't do anything about it.
- [00:24:23.220]And it makes you feel great or terrified
- [00:24:27.840]and with no productive output.
- [00:24:30.600]So I would say once a week is like,
- [00:24:33.630]as frequent as you ever want to go.
- [00:24:36.120]I mean, so for me, the, the system I set up
- [00:24:38.940]was I would look at a different site every day.
- [00:24:42.030]Oh, okay.
- [00:24:42.863]But with like, I should be able to get through it
- [00:24:45.110]in a half hour, right? Like-
- [00:24:47.430]And I would just pull the listings that I was interested in
- [00:24:50.730]that fit the criteria that I already laid out,
- [00:24:53.062]add them into my system of organization.
- [00:24:56.088]Are you surprised? Was a spreadsheet.
- [00:24:58.920]Huge surprise.
- [00:25:00.030]Huge surprise.
- [00:25:00.863]Huge surprise.
- [00:25:01.696]This, this is a quick explanation.
- [00:25:03.930]Always a spreadsheet.
- [00:25:08.970]Sometimes a spreadsheet.
- [00:25:10.890]But always causing problems for wait staff.
- [00:25:13.560]Yes. And I apologize to all the wait staff.
- [00:25:16.353]That is- As you should.
- [00:25:17.640]Big tip.
- [00:25:18.690]Yes. Big tipper.
- [00:25:19.523]I am a big tipper.
- [00:25:20.610]That's excellent. That's all we ask for.
- [00:25:23.400]Like if you're gonna cause the trouble, rabble the rousing.
- [00:25:27.497]Gotta pay for it.
- [00:25:28.770]Right. So- Agreed.
- [00:25:29.670]But I had a- I would look at the position.
- [00:25:33.690]Have my spreadsheet.
- [00:25:34.770]Layout my spreadsheet in a way
- [00:25:36.840]that I understood what was being asked of me,
- [00:25:39.930]why I was interested in the position.
- [00:25:43.208]And what the deadlines were,
- [00:25:45.870]what the various pieces of it were.
- [00:25:47.220]So that I could at a glance,
- [00:25:49.770]like in a good job market year,
- [00:25:51.750]you could be working on
- [00:25:54.870]up to like 10 applications at one time.
- [00:25:57.650]And there's pieces that they're gonna have in common.
- [00:26:00.810]Like, I don't want to say,
- [00:26:01.897]"Oh, every packet's gonna be individualized."
- [00:26:05.130]Like that's not sustainable. That's not possible. No.
- [00:26:07.097]Right. Like, that's not possible.
- [00:26:08.970]But there's gonna be some deviations
- [00:26:12.270]between all the different postings.
- [00:26:14.190]And that was my way to catch it.
- [00:26:16.950]Was this a sometimes spreadsheet moment for you?
- [00:26:19.410]Like what did you do?
- [00:26:21.360]Well, my- The simplicity of my job market
- [00:26:25.440]was that there were so very few actual postings,
- [00:26:30.390]that it was not a long process.
- [00:26:32.940]I did have actually a Word document
- [00:26:37.380]that just kind of copy and pasted the requirements.
- [00:26:42.000]And my challenge was that I came from a program
- [00:26:47.899]that my personal program, but also the institution,
- [00:26:53.160]where I was partially in special education,
- [00:26:57.420]partially in educational psychology,
- [00:26:59.190]and partially in what is classically called
- [00:27:01.740]curriculum and instruction or teacher education really.
- [00:27:06.810]Which I proudly call myself now.
- [00:27:09.000]And so I had a few avenues I can go down.
- [00:27:12.930]And so the two job postings that I actually responded to,
- [00:27:16.740]one was in curriculum and instruction, which was here.
- [00:27:19.530]We were still called
- [00:27:20.700]the Center for Curriculum and Instruction.
- [00:27:22.710]And the other one was special education
- [00:27:24.660]at the University of Minnesota.
- [00:27:26.400]And so I could still leverage myself in different ways.
- [00:27:30.553]This was a better fit for me.
- [00:27:32.700]So, that being said, to be completely honest,
- [00:27:36.240]the search in Minnesota was canceled at the last minute.
- [00:27:38.790]They just had to scrap it for lack of funds
- [00:27:40.475]and they were going to reboot it for next year.
- [00:27:42.780]So they actually asked me if I would apply next year.
- [00:27:45.750]And I'm like, well, I kind of have a job.
- [00:27:48.870]And with- And again, that has something to do with,
- [00:27:52.530]once I decided that I'm going into the market
- [00:27:55.620]when there was a job, I was going to grab it and go
- [00:27:58.710]and start taking care of my family in a way
- [00:28:01.680]that you can't as a graduate student
- [00:28:03.390]because you're not getting paid much.
- [00:28:08.130]Right. Well, and I think that brings up another point
- [00:28:11.220]that is important where-
- [00:28:16.920]Don't just apply to a job because it's practice, right?
- [00:28:22.194]And because at the other end of that,
- [00:28:28.080]like it's work for the grad student,
- [00:28:30.210]it's work for the person who's searching for the jobs,
- [00:28:32.280]but it's also work for the committees
- [00:28:35.100]that are pulling these job postings together
- [00:28:38.580]and who are sorting through all these materials. And
- [00:28:43.950]unless you're-
- [00:28:45.930]if they were to offer you the job,
- [00:28:48.810]would it actually-
- [00:28:49.890]would you consider a yes, right?
- [00:28:52.110]Like if that question is automatically no-
- [00:28:55.260]Then don't it.
- [00:28:56.093]That's not a good use of your time.
- [00:28:59.385]And not a good- not a good recognition
- [00:29:02.610]of like the faculty labor that goes into a job search.
- [00:29:11.137]So I think really having a specific idea
- [00:29:13.321]of which jobs you're most interested in is important.
- [00:29:20.610]But sometimes just to balance that,
- [00:29:26.760]you also don't want to reject outright.
- [00:29:29.370]So if you're never gonna say yes to that place,
- [00:29:31.800]please don't.
- [00:29:32.730]Yes.
- [00:29:34.166]If you're never gonna-
- [00:29:34.999]If you're not going to entertain the possibility of a yes.
- [00:29:36.800]So I have a geography, my partner and I,
- [00:29:40.277]have a geographical agreement about places I can apply to
- [00:29:43.500]at jobs and places I can't.
- [00:29:45.240]This has been going on for 20 years.
- [00:29:47.100]So, it's well established.
- [00:29:48.720]I've never applied to a place,
- [00:29:51.180]that was on that list of we will never go and live there
- [00:29:54.780]for a variety of reasons.
- [00:29:56.400]We each have our personal reasons,
- [00:29:58.320]but when you have that list, yeah.
- [00:30:00.510]I've never applied.
- [00:30:01.860]I've never applied for a job in Mississippi
- [00:30:04.290]because we are not going to live in Mississippi.
- [00:30:07.140]And some people-
- [00:30:08.430]I mean I have graduate students who've graduated
- [00:30:10.920]and became professors at Mississippi State
- [00:30:12.990]and in other places around that state.
- [00:30:14.550]And they do just fine.
- [00:30:16.050]It's a personal choice, but our choice was not.
- [00:30:18.120]So I would never apply to that.
- [00:30:19.650]But sometimes when it seems like,
- [00:30:22.020]I don't know if they will take people,
- [00:30:24.089]if they will take my file, but if they make me an offer,
- [00:30:27.480]I would say yes.
- [00:30:28.313]Sometimes you need to try
- [00:30:29.550]because you don't know who else is going to be in that list.
- [00:30:33.390]So you don't know if you are really coming up
- [00:30:36.150]or exactly what they're looking for.
- [00:30:37.650]So try, because applying doesn't mean
- [00:30:40.800]they're going to call you and ask you
- [00:30:43.350]for a phone interview or a physical interview.
- [00:30:45.480]And if they do it doesn't mean you have to say yes.
- [00:30:47.580]But if the answer is no before everything,
- [00:30:51.990]don't waste your time and theirs.
- [00:30:54.330]Yes. No, and that's- I mean,
- [00:30:55.680]and time is the name of the game.
- [00:30:57.090]Like I have, I think I've said that what,
- [00:30:59.430]five times already?
- [00:31:01.170]Like this is another job
- [00:31:02.820]on top of what you're already doing, right?
- [00:31:05.935]And so you don't wanna be wasting it
- [00:31:10.920]'cause there's no replacing that.
- [00:31:12.000]Like, once you're 24 hours in the day are up,
- [00:31:14.220]you don't get them back.
- [00:31:15.240]Like there's no, there's no coupon to get those back, right?
- [00:31:19.337]So we're particularly loquacious on this topic obviously,
- [00:31:26.730]because I think it's one of the pieces like in,
- [00:31:31.140]if you have a solid understanding of this process,
- [00:31:33.390]this allows so many other things-
- [00:31:35.820]To happen for you. Yeah.
- [00:31:36.810]Right. To be able to happen.
- [00:31:37.980]And so we are, we're going out-
- [00:31:40.290]We're going over time.
- [00:31:41.160]And so in order to make this
- [00:31:42.030]unmanageable bite size episode-
- [00:31:45.210]We're thinking about portion control.
- [00:31:47.010]Podcast portion control.
- [00:31:50.400]See doctor,
- [00:31:51.233]I do listen to you when you talk portion control.
- [00:31:53.190]It's in my head.
- [00:31:55.260]We're gonna come back to
- [00:31:56.850]and expand upon these things in the next episode
- [00:32:01.290]because we need to work on our time management.
- [00:32:03.210]Yeah.
- [00:32:04.560]And so we'll see you We should have set a timer.
- [00:32:05.815]in the next episode.
- [00:32:06.648]See you in the next, yeah.
- [00:32:09.390]So if you're feeling a little exasperated
- [00:32:13.290]and has some shortness of breath, don't email us.
- [00:32:16.650]Call your general practitioner
- [00:32:17.670]cause we're not that doctor.
- [00:32:20.198](upbeat outro)
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