Faculty Interview Allan Donsig and Nathan Wakefield-UNL

Brad Severa Author

10/06/2022 Added

6 Plays

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OER Seed Grant interview Allan Donsig and Nathan Wakefield

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[00:00:04.830]I guess there's probably a couple of answers,
[00:00:07.420]or a couple of things that played into
[00:00:08.810]our decision to use OER.
[00:00:11.070]One, we had already moved to a more worksheet model
[00:00:14.350]where we had created a bunch of worksheets,
[00:00:16.310]put them into a course packet.
[00:00:17.760]The students were already purchasing the course packet,
[00:00:20.790]and that was driving the course.
[00:00:22.320]A lot of students were really relying on the course packet.
[00:00:25.600]They were using that for their notes,
[00:00:27.060]and it was becoming the case that it didn't make sense
[00:00:30.140]for students to be purchasing a very expensive textbook
[00:00:33.240]when the primary driving force behind the course
[00:00:35.810]was this course packet.
[00:00:37.560]And said what we needed, what we realized we needed,
[00:00:40.590]was we needed some materials
[00:00:42.320]to supplement the course packet,
[00:00:43.720]to provide them some reading outside of class.
[00:00:46.540]But instruction was taking place inside the classroom,
[00:00:49.090]and so it made sense to focus
[00:00:50.580]on an online educational resource
[00:00:54.180]that was free to the students,
[00:00:55.350]but was something that they could read
[00:00:57.440]to supplement what they were
[00:00:58.440]getting in the classroom already.
[00:01:03.150]It took a couple of steps,
[00:01:05.140]and the, I mean, the starting point
[00:01:08.290]was realizing that we could do this
[00:01:10.570]without breaking the course, that there wasn't going to be,
[00:01:13.160]that we did not need all the resources
[00:01:17.020]a traditional textbook supplied.
[00:01:19.680]What we needed was something that was more targeted,
[00:01:23.040]and so, having this vision for what we needed,
[00:01:26.240]then it became: How do we put together
[00:01:28.650]a group of people who can do this,
[00:01:30.610]and can we get this done in a summer?
[00:01:33.130]And that was a little bit ambitious, but it worked.
[00:01:37.730]And Nathan led the team, and so I think probably
[00:01:41.480]he should speak better about
[00:01:42.760]the process during that summer.
[00:01:44.680]But, having built it in that summer,
[00:01:46.300]we then have this iterative process of maintaining it
[00:01:48.910]where we make revisions and keep updating it,
[00:01:53.010]and we have a chance to,
[00:01:55.160]we are not stuck with a given set
[00:01:57.570]of problems that we can never fix.
[00:01:58.930]If there's something we find
[00:02:00.010]doesn't work well about the book,
[00:02:01.440]we can revise it as we go along.
[00:02:03.490]And so, having control over the materials,
[00:02:06.240]and in particular, being able to integrate
[00:02:08.970]the course packet, the online homework, and the OER
[00:02:13.900]to fit together well is something
[00:02:16.020]that we've found to be really valuable
[00:02:18.180]once we had it in place.
[00:02:20.150]So, I'm not sure if I answered your question,
[00:02:22.120]but that's at least part of what we were thinking.
[00:02:25.250]Forming the team was really important,
[00:02:27.580]and finding the right individuals to work on the team.
[00:02:31.880]We needed somebody that was going to make
[00:02:34.307]the sort of executive decisions,
[00:02:36.429]and be the final person that said,
[00:02:38.840]no, we aren't covering that topic,
[00:02:40.530]or yes, we are gonna cover that topic.
[00:02:42.890]We needed people who were going to write
[00:02:45.970]and just put out a lot of material.
[00:02:48.830]And then we needed people who were going to proof-read it
[00:02:50.980]and were the perfectionists
[00:02:52.470]to really make sure that it was right
[00:02:54.490]and that it was done correctly.
[00:02:56.220]So, that was sort of the first step
[00:02:57.600]was forming our team.
[00:02:59.030]Once we had a good team in place, then we started looking
[00:03:01.530]at other materials outside of the department
[00:03:05.400]and to other open online educational materials
[00:03:08.010]that we could sorta curate,
[00:03:09.680]and to use as our standard and our base.
[00:03:12.600]And so, we found those materials,
[00:03:14.300]and once we found materials,
[00:03:15.663]then we started looking at software
[00:03:17.410]to try to decide what is the software
[00:03:19.820]that we're going to use to build out our content in.
[00:03:23.960]And we settled on a software package called Pretec.
[00:03:27.630]So, then we started writing in the Pretec package,
[00:03:30.380]and developing the materials.
[00:03:32.080]I had somebody editing the materials,
[00:03:33.980]and the team then started to really function.
[00:03:36.640]But it was a several step process
[00:03:38.550]of finding the right people to do the job,
[00:03:40.450]finding the right materials to fit our course,
[00:03:43.020]and then the process of actually writing
[00:03:45.260]and editing those materials.
[00:03:51.470]We've received some feedback from students.
[00:03:54.040]Students appreciate that
[00:03:55.960]they're not having to purchase a textbook.
[00:03:58.250]We also do keep track of how often
[00:04:00.140]the textbook is being used.
[00:04:01.930]And so, we can't say that it's feedback per se,
[00:04:05.360]but what we can say is that we have
[00:04:07.530]several thousand students who are using the materials.
[00:04:10.190]And we are also tracking where they're using it from,
[00:04:13.540]and we know that there's other countries, in fact,
[00:04:15.500]that're using our materials now.
[00:04:17.620]It was a couple of weeks ago we checked,
[00:04:19.010]and I think there were 14 different countries
[00:04:21.750]that were using the materials.
[00:04:23.300]So, in some sense, I guess there's not a lot of noise,
[00:04:28.460]which we think is a good thing.
[00:04:29.820]Students seem to appreciate it,
[00:04:31.130]but they're also not complaining about it,
[00:04:32.730]and that's a big positive.
[00:04:35.800]And it's really the story of the dog that didn't bark.
[00:04:37.930]I mean, we made this dramatic change to the course
[00:04:40.170]and we have not had any substantive complaints
[00:04:44.840]that they wanted, somebody wanted a textbook,
[00:04:47.730]or said that they felt deprived because we've given them
[00:04:50.210]a reference to this online resource
[00:04:53.460]instead of saying here's a printed book.
[00:04:55.740]Nobody said, I haven't had anybody
[00:04:57.990]come and say, you know, this is terrible.
[00:05:01.346](chuckles) Or even this is bad.
[00:05:08.360]We did make some changes, actually,
[00:05:10.210]in the spring semester.
[00:05:11.250]So, in the fall semester, several of the instructors
[00:05:14.890]came to me and said students were really struggling with,
[00:05:18.130]applications of systems of equations was the specific topic,
[00:05:21.600]but they said that book doesn't have enough detail on this.
[00:05:25.820]Can we rewrite or write
[00:05:27.220]a new section of the book to cover this?
[00:05:29.480]And so we actually, over the Christmas break,
[00:05:32.100]we were able to write a new section, put it in the book.
[00:05:34.790]We didn't have to print a new edition.
[00:05:36.380]We didn't have to contact the publisher
[00:05:37.840]and say we need a different book.
[00:05:40.690]The students don't even realize
[00:05:41.900]that their book changed in the course of one semester.
[00:05:44.590]But, we could make those edits on the fly,
[00:05:46.980]and that was a huge feature of the book.
[00:05:49.480]So, what didn't work was we didn't
[00:05:51.550]get everything right the first time,
[00:05:52.830]but one of the big advantages of the OER
[00:05:54.823]is that we were able to fix that.
[00:06:00.710]I guess, first thing you have to think about
[00:06:03.020]is the role that the textbook plays in the current course,
[00:06:06.220]and how that role could be modified,
[00:06:10.847]or if it's a relatively straightforward transition.
[00:06:13.960]For us, because of the diminished role of the textbook,
[00:06:17.810]it was relatively straightforward to make this change.
[00:06:20.820]Another big thing to think about is, you know,
[00:06:26.990]what's your timeline for making a change?
[00:06:29.920]If you have fewer people
[00:06:31.720]then you need more time to get through the materials.
[00:06:34.860]To what extent can you do this as a team?
[00:06:37.470]We found it incredibly valuable to have
[00:06:39.420]a team of people who're doing this,
[00:06:41.690]and that's partly because we have
[00:06:43.030]a team of people involved in instruction.
[00:06:45.480]So, if there's a small group of people
[00:06:48.190]who are sort of the leaders of the course,
[00:06:50.930]or who have the vision for what the course should be,
[00:06:54.440]then that group needs to be heavily involved
[00:06:57.340]in the design of the OER,
[00:06:59.250]and that limits the number of people.
[00:07:01.240]But if you can put together a group of people,
[00:07:03.810]that's incredibly valuable.
[00:07:05.100]It's always useful to have a different pair of eyes
[00:07:07.610]doing the proof-reading,
[00:07:09.020]and that ability to,
[00:07:12.340]to distribute the work
[00:07:13.730]makes it possible to do things relatively quickly.
[00:07:20.720]One of the things I think that has surprised me,
[00:07:22.750]and I don't know that this is as much an OER course
[00:07:25.340]as it is something we can track now
[00:07:27.050]that we couldn't track before,
[00:07:28.610]was how quickly students stopped using the textbook.
[00:07:33.340]You know, we had thousands of students
[00:07:35.420]use the textbook in the first week,
[00:07:36.930]and that dropped off
[00:07:37.763]to hundreds of students in subsequent weeks.
[00:07:40.470]And so, I think it told us a lot.
[00:07:42.950]It told us, one, that going to the OER was the right model,
[00:07:45.830]'cause we think that the same things
[00:07:47.150]probably happening with their textbook normally.
[00:07:49.690]And so, having students have access to a resource for help
[00:07:54.140]is far more important than purchasing
[00:07:56.020]a resource that they maybe aren't using at all.
[00:07:58.720]I guess one of the things that I could add
[00:08:00.890]is how willing people were to ask for changes to be made.
[00:08:06.740]And it was minor things like,
[00:08:08.410]I just don't like the way that this is phrased,
[00:08:10.210]or could we consider re-phrasing this definition?
[00:08:14.240]And it's things that you wouldn't have
[00:08:15.640]the ability to do with a traditional textbook,
[00:08:19.470]but because it was something we could edit,
[00:08:22.230]and it was something that we could edit in real time,
[00:08:25.040]people were willing to say let's fix this up.
[00:08:27.960]Let's tweak this just a little bit
[00:08:30.300]and make it slightly better.
[00:08:31.800]And so, the ability to edit in real time
[00:08:35.440]was something that was, we should've seen it coming,
[00:08:38.430]but it wound up being a surprise for us.
[00:08:41.100]Well, an important part of that
[00:08:42.330]is that there's a wiki, and there's a way
[00:08:44.610]to collect instructor feedback from
[00:08:47.167]the team of instructors who're using the materials,
[00:08:50.390]and do that in an organized way.
[00:08:52.690]And so, having a plan for how you're going to revise things,
[00:08:57.210]or how you're going to track where the problems are,
[00:09:01.760]we were just talking about,
[00:09:03.410]maybe we should be paying people,
[00:09:04.920]or offering bonus points if they find typos and mistakes.
[00:09:10.880]We've contemplated moving other courses to OER.
[00:09:12.970]That's certainly something we're thinking about,
[00:09:14.570]is how do we build a revision plan so that we,
[00:09:18.510]even if we don't get
[00:09:19.343]all the way there in the first semester,
[00:09:21.050]and we don't have to be all the way there
[00:09:22.360]to be a successful improvement over what we have now.
[00:09:25.080]But even if it's not everything that we want,
[00:09:26.930]how do we iteratively get to that goal
[00:09:30.890]over the course of multiple semesters?
[00:09:36.830]I think one of the concerns
[00:09:38.760]any time people are looking into the textbook
[00:09:41.200]is how much do I have to change my course
[00:09:43.900]when I adopt this textbook?
[00:09:46.060]And where we are is a different concern,
[00:09:48.600]'cause you don't have to ask that question.
[00:09:50.120]Instead you can ask, how much do I need
[00:09:51.470]to change the OER to fit my course?
[00:09:53.900]And so, you get to teach the course that you want to teach
[00:09:56.180]as opposed to teaching the course
[00:09:57.910]that the textbook gives you,
[00:09:59.580]and I think that's a real benefit.
[00:10:04.940]I wanna say that because we had
[00:10:07.510]this course packet that drove the course,
[00:10:10.250]we didn't change the assignments.
[00:10:11.660]The assignments were in the course packet.
[00:10:14.480]That's probably not the complete truth,
[00:10:17.030]because once we are freed from a textbook,
[00:10:20.210]then we have the right to walk away
[00:10:22.570]from certain kinds of things,
[00:10:24.860]and to organize the material in a way
[00:10:27.830]that fits the flow of the course
[00:10:29.160]for us and our choice of topics.
[00:10:32.900]Textbooks are kind of built to be all things to all people,
[00:10:35.650]and to maximize sales across a wide market.
[00:10:40.170]And therefore, if you wanna do
[00:10:41.260]something a little bit unconventional,
[00:10:43.500]or something that's well adapted to our environment,
[00:10:46.130]but not necessarily something that's common nationally,
[00:10:50.090]then you don't, you know, then you're constrained
[00:10:52.940]by the book which won't support that,
[00:10:54.630]or will make it harder.
[00:10:56.030]And so, the ability to fit the book to what we wanted
[00:10:59.450]was really, it was very freeing.
[00:11:08.220]I think the biggest instructional challenge
[00:11:10.140]that we're facing, and I don't think it's
[00:11:11.660]anything particular to OER,
[00:11:13.210]is getting students to use the resource.
[00:11:16.020]So, one of the things that we are contemplating,
[00:11:18.620]and sort of working through, talking about,
[00:11:21.230]is whether we could build some assignments
[00:11:23.560]directly into the resource.
[00:11:25.610]So, it's online. It's hosted online.
[00:11:28.430]And we're discussing and trying
[00:11:30.220]to come up with creative ways that we can build assignments
[00:11:32.370]directly into the resource where students would,
[00:11:35.150]in order to complete the assignment,
[00:11:36.740]be forced to access the resource
[00:11:38.510]and do different interactions with it,
[00:11:40.680]and make it be very interactive,
[00:11:41.970]but there be points associated with that interaction.
[00:11:49.030]Statistically, we don't see a difference.
[00:11:51.612]And so, we do track the performance,
[00:11:54.740]quite detailed in the courses,
[00:11:57.180]and we're not seeing the difference.
[00:11:58.700]We have roughly 1,500 students
[00:12:01.010]now that we've run through the tracking,
[00:12:05.270]and we haven't seen a difference
[00:12:06.710]in those students' performance in the courses.
[00:12:09.060]So, I would say that they're performing
[00:12:12.030]just as well as they were before.
[00:12:17.490]Well, it's as he said before.
[00:12:18.490]We changed the organization of the material a little bit,
[00:12:22.400]because we don't have to care about
[00:12:23.660]the opinions of the textbook.
[00:12:26.210]We've started looking for ways to more effectively
[00:12:30.370]integrate our online homework system with the OER
[00:12:37.123]to make that, both as an incentive
[00:12:39.420]for engaging with the OER
[00:12:42.070]and as a way of getting
[00:12:47.023]the materials in the online homework to fit with what we say
[00:12:51.410]so that everything has a consistent notation
[00:12:54.120]and a consistent view of the course.
[00:12:56.710]But the,
[00:12:59.430]I don't think we've had to rethink things in a serious way.
[00:13:03.710]I mean, it's just a matter of fitting these two together.
[00:13:08.970]Think carefully about who you want to have on your team.
[00:13:12.230]I think the biggest thing that we did
[00:13:16.090]was to form the right team of individuals
[00:13:18.380]and to have it be something that was done
[00:13:20.970]by our department as a community.
[00:13:24.260]And I think that that's something
[00:13:26.050]that I would really recommend, is to think carefully.
[00:13:28.830]Who can you have, even if they have very minor roles?
[00:13:32.760]But the more people you have involved,
[00:13:35.150]the better refined the product is going to be.
[00:13:37.850]Who are the leaders for the course?
[00:13:39.550]Who are the leaders in the department?
[00:13:42.180]I mean, where does the course fit into the curriculum,
[00:13:45.610]and what are the goals and outcomes for the course
[00:13:48.860]that are really important?
[00:13:50.540]All we are is a chance to, you know,
[00:13:54.730]to get rid of things you don't like
[00:13:57.740]because you're not tied to them any more,
[00:13:59.600]and a chance to emphasize
[00:14:01.030]the things you think are important.
[00:14:02.720]And so, having a vision,
[00:14:04.500]and having a vision that's broadly supported
[00:14:07.730]in the department, as Nathan said, is really important.
[00:14:12.990]You don't want a change that is just
[00:14:14.860]one person imposing their vision,
[00:14:16.860]and when that person goes on to another role,
[00:14:19.810]or changes their situation, then the course reverts back.
[00:14:24.530]So,
[00:14:27.091]a vision at the beginning
[00:14:29.230]and some sort of vision
[00:14:31.100]for sustaining the materials long-term.
[00:14:34.750]Textbooks get updated, you know, depending on your field.
[00:14:39.150]You know, your subject can change
[00:14:40.740]quite a bit in a few years.
[00:14:42.040]If that happens then, you know,
[00:14:44.940]you can find yourself revising these things,
[00:14:46.650]and it's important to be able to have
[00:14:49.870]some thought process for how that's going to occur,
[00:14:53.130]or what the supports will be for doing that.
[00:14:58.740]I think we really, I mean, OER really made
[00:15:02.380]a big difference in the course
[00:15:03.780]in the sense that we are not asking the students
[00:15:07.960]to pony up a chunk of money.
[00:15:10.210]We can see from the analytics how it's being used,
[00:15:13.540]and what's being emphasized.
[00:15:14.790]We have control over how it works,
[00:15:17.060]and can change it when we don't like it.
[00:15:22.800]It is very encouraging to have something
[00:15:24.440]which is, essentially, not tied to a commercial publisher,
[00:15:27.840]and is controlled by the people who teach the course,
[00:15:30.750]not somebody outside of it.
[00:15:32.870]And so, we, I mean,
[00:15:35.700]I really value being able to say
[00:15:38.350]you don't have to pay anything for this.
[00:15:40.480]If you have a suggestion for how to improve it,
[00:15:42.530]we are, you know, we're all-ears.
[00:15:45.640]It's not this sort of thing that, you know,
[00:15:49.370]not a stone tablet that's sitting there.
[00:15:51.330]It's something that's flexible, and adaptable,
[00:15:54.330]and works with us, and that's really valuable to us.
[00:15:58.750]We've made ours available, both online,
[00:16:02.440]but also in mobile formats.
[00:16:04.550]It's formatted for cellphones.
[00:16:05.940]It's formatted for iPads.
[00:16:08.060]Student can access this wherever they are.
[00:16:11.060]They don't need to carry around a 15 pound book
[00:16:13.890]in order to complete their homework.

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Faculty Interview Allan Donsig and Nathan Wakefield-UNL

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