Tom Williams Interview

Dotan, Beth; Tylski, Ethan Author

04/18/2022 Added

19 Plays

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Interview with Dr. Tom Williams, son of Staff Sergeant Clarence Williams, Liberator of Dachau concentration camp, 42nd Rainbow Infantry Division WWII May 17, 2021

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[00:00:25.320]My family and I were returning to Omaha from Israel.
[00:00:29.430]My father was looking for a house for us to live in for a couple of years.
[00:00:34.170]And, my girlfriend,
[00:00:36.690]Eadie Tsabari had heard that the Williams were going to be selling their house,
[00:00:41.130]which was basically a couple of streets away from them.
[00:00:46.170]And, so we sort of approached this in a,
[00:00:49.950]in a direct way. And then my father met with you, Tom and at the house,
[00:00:54.810]I believe with Edie and,
[00:00:58.500]and we were able to come to a, a wonderful
[00:01:03.390]agreement to be able to move into your home before you moved to a new place in
[00:01:08.370]the west part of Omaha.
[00:01:10.620]But what was so striking for me after we completed that deal is that you came
[00:01:14.970]over one day and said, you know, my dad was a,
[00:01:19.440]a veteran for World War two vet. And
[00:01:22.440]I've got materials that talk about his experience and
[00:01:27.480]the liberation of Dachau among other things. And you brought me the,
[00:01:31.800]the briefcase and we sat at the kitchen table looking out on that beautiful
[00:01:36.360]backyard.
[00:01:37.950]And you opened that briefcase with these amazing treasures inside.
[00:01:42.150]I had never seen a photo album with such precise writing
[00:01:46.890]and,
[00:01:49.530]your father's eloquent way of explaining his history.
[00:01:53.250]And then there was a little box with a bunch of letters,
[00:01:56.940]which was also just, you know, this glimpse into his past,
[00:02:00.990]into your family life that you may or may not have been completely aware of Tom,
[00:02:06.270]but it, it sort of brought our work together,
[00:02:08.580]mine in trying to teach the lessons of the Holocaust and your
[00:02:13.440]father's past.
[00:02:16.080]so it was completely unexpected. And
[00:02:19.470]we are now 21 years later,
[00:02:24.570]meeting together and, Ethan, I don't know, are you 21 yet?
[00:02:29.490]Yeah.
[00:02:29.910]I'm almost 22. So
[00:02:33.810]I am the visual representation of your relationship relationship. So.
[00:02:38.490]I just wanted to start with that because it puts into perspective doesn't matter
[00:02:43.080]how long a collection like this sits in a briefcase,
[00:02:47.910]in an attic, in someone's life.
[00:02:50.850]It's still has incredible meaning going forward. So,
[00:02:54.660]so I want to thank both of you.
[00:02:57.190]And I'm so excited to bring the two of you together to have this conversation.
[00:03:03.090]Wow. I don't think I have much to add. That was excellent, Beth.
[00:03:09.540]You have a lot to add. Yeah. Well, my side of the story is the same. I mean,
[00:03:14.250]the way I remember it and, because we,
[00:03:18.420]the thing that I remember that was weird as a non-techie is we
[00:03:21.070]sold the house over the internet and, through the help of
[00:03:26.580]Beth's dad and mom, and,
[00:03:29.610]they were in Israel and decided they wanted the house. It was as I recall,
[00:03:33.600]location, you wanted near us, relatives and in district 66 area,
[00:03:38.340]which was like right down the street from, Oakdale. And so
[00:03:43.090]it was easy for us to do that. And then I learned about your past.
[00:03:47.730]And then when I learned Beth was in Holocaust education, I thought, gee,
[00:03:52.440]that's something my dad was seriously into.
[00:03:54.660]And I had grown up with these materials around me.
[00:03:59.160]And I was my, you know, my dad never went to college.
[00:04:03.930]He'd finished high school and
[00:04:07.080]grew up in a small town in Crescent, Iowa and met my mom in
[00:04:11.070]Council Bluffs in high school.
[00:04:15.300]But he had cataloged this. I don't know how he did it, honestly,
[00:04:18.180]because he took his camera to- who takes their cameras to war?
[00:04:21.840]I guess a number of guys did that.
[00:04:25.710]I wouldn't be what I think most soldiers going to war would consider doing,
[00:04:30.390]but not only did he take pictures, he cataloged them all. And Ethan,
[00:04:35.280]I don't know, I assume you've seen
[00:04:36.990]the album or at least parts of the album, but the whole album is carefully
[00:04:41.790]chronicled with names and places and dates, you know,
[00:04:46.260]and there they go all the way from his pictures at Dachau to
[00:04:50.820]having wine or beer on the terrace in Italy with some army buddies and their
[00:04:54.570]names are all there. I mean, I don't know how he did all that stuff.
[00:04:59.390]And it's amazing. So I had grown up with it,
[00:05:03.480]with the Holocaust in his background. And so I thought, gee,
[00:05:08.310]this is pretty cool. I, you know, I bet Beth would like to see these, but the,
[00:05:12.210]excitement that,
[00:05:13.920]that you and your colleagues had over it exceeded my wildest expectations.
[00:05:18.870]And I guess I knew it was extremely important,
[00:05:22.050]but I didn't maybe know how much of a treasurer it actually was.
[00:05:26.520]And I had worried about his legacy and his history in that part of his
[00:05:31.140]life. Just expiring in our attic somewhere. They don't have that anymore.
[00:05:36.200]You get the point. And so to me,
[00:05:39.120]it was wonderful to see that there was perhaps a place for, for this,
[00:05:43.470]because it was a big part of what he did after the war. And
[00:05:48.390]he was involved in a lot of civic activities,
[00:05:50.820]but one of them was speaking about his, Holocaust experiences,
[00:05:55.740]during the war, particularly to high school
[00:05:59.450]classes where there was even, even back in the fifties,
[00:06:04.130]and beyond there were,
[00:06:08.480]there were people who didn't believe that it happened.
[00:06:10.670]And so he was not infrequently asked to come and give a presentation of what
[00:06:15.650]he had seen in person. So,
[00:06:19.160]it was very exciting for us to be able to do that. And,
[00:06:23.440]the oddest things kept happening between me and Beth.
[00:06:27.230]We would, I still remember one time and we had, I'm going to get teared up here,
[00:06:32.300]because I, I really don't think it was just serendipitous.
[00:06:37.280]I think it was one of those meant to be things. I know we were coming back.
[00:06:41.600]I used to do a lot of a fair amount of traveling, um,
[00:06:44.690]with the College of American Pathologist on committees. And
[00:06:48.410]I think it was in Chicago one time,
[00:06:50.810]you and I were on the same plane back to Omaha. And I was like, Hey,
[00:06:53.840]we saw each other, you know, this is great. And I said,
[00:06:58.750]well, we're on the same plane. And she said, well,
[00:07:00.560]maybe we should look at our tickets. Maybe we're seated next to each other.
[00:07:03.800]And we were! I mean, how often does that happen? You know,
[00:07:08.540]like never. So it's been a very interesting,
[00:07:13.700]uh,
[00:07:14.060]experience for me in my personal journey as a Christian to see how
[00:07:18.710]this kind of came together, because I think it was something that
[00:07:23.720]was intended to be,
[00:07:25.010]and I'm deeply grateful that you all are doing what you're doing
[00:07:29.960]and putting it all together the way you're doing it. So that's great.
[00:07:35.360]No,
[00:07:35.600]I like Clarence's testimony is like incredibly powerful.
[00:07:40.610]Your father's testimony is.
[00:07:43.130]like even nowadays there are still people who deny the Holocaust and
[00:07:47.930]like at least, you know, me reading his letters, seeing the photos he took,
[00:07:52.730]you know, that's primary evidence right there.
[00:07:55.370]These are photos almost no one's ever seen, like these aren't made up, you know,
[00:08:00.170]and the goal that people have to try to like insinuate that these things didn't
[00:08:04.250]happen. It's like here, here's the direct evidence right here. These,
[00:08:08.210]these were boxes that were in your attic. Cause you said, you know,
[00:08:11.030]like this isn't a conspiracy, it's, it's a real life thing that happened.
[00:08:14.990]And it's, it's powerful.
[00:08:16.940]I had the opportunity to finally see the entire collection,
[00:08:20.030]I think like a month ago or something. I had seen a couple of fragments,
[00:08:23.330]a couple of photos, but I finally had the chance to see the entire photo album.
[00:08:27.650]And I probably spent like half an hour just scrolling through it.
[00:08:32.780]You know, it was hard stuff looking at. I mean,
[00:08:36.380]I obviously there's the account. I don't know if you've had the chance to read,
[00:08:40.550]um, Clarence sent a letter to your mother,
[00:08:45.140]very,
[00:08:46.400]very shortly after liberating Dachau and that's a really hard letter to read.
[00:08:50.840]Yes. That's the letter I'm most familiar with actually.
[00:08:54.880]And honestly we did not, and I did not spend any,
[00:08:57.870]I'm ashamed to say, any significant time, going through my,
[00:09:02.550]dad's letters. So I'll learn about them from what you did,
[00:09:06.810]because it'll probably be easier to read. And, you know,
[00:09:10.620]you mentioned deniers of the Holocaust. There, there is an,
[00:09:13.530]I don't remember why I learned this or heard it because it's been years ago,
[00:09:17.700]but allegedly there's a saying in the Soviet Union that in Russia,
[00:09:22.890]it's always difficult to predict history and sadly,
[00:09:27.150]we're getting the same way here in the United States now.
[00:09:30.630]In recent events and in fact, in past events. So I think that's,
[00:09:35.880]that's, that's a sad line, but true.
[00:09:40.680]The first question I had was I feel like I
[00:09:45.360]know your father relatively well, at least, you know,
[00:09:48.120]the version of him during the war.
[00:09:50.580]And I'm very curious to know what type of person you thought your father was and
[00:09:55.740]what you thought his worldview was. And
[00:10:00.120]like particularly after the war? I mean,
[00:10:03.300]when you see the things that he saw,
[00:10:05.760]I'm sure that affected the way he saw the world quite a bit. I mean,
[00:10:10.230]I know it would affect me a lot too.
[00:10:13.020]And that's why I specifically ask this question, like,
[00:10:15.690]how did he view humanity after, you know,
[00:10:19.020]witnessing particularly Dachau? But I mean,
[00:10:21.720]he saw a lot more than just Dachau in the war. And when, I mean,
[00:10:24.690]I'm sure if you ever go back through all the letters, you'll see, like he,
[00:10:29.230]he hated the war. I mean, he despised the violence.
[00:10:32.550]He wanted nothing more than just to return home, to be with, you know,
[00:10:36.930]his wife, you know, more than anything.
[00:10:38.760]I feel he just deplored the violence and,
[00:10:43.680]you know, saw it all as a tragedy, at least the way I read him.
[00:10:48.900]So yeah,
[00:10:50.370]I think I'd really like to hear about what you think his worldview became
[00:10:54.270]because of the war.
[00:10:56.490]Well, I obviously didn't know him before the war because I wasn't here.
[00:11:02.520]And I should say by the way, I've kind of been trying to look at some,
[00:11:05.280]find some of the old family artifacts we have and I haven't found them all, but,
[00:11:11.490]I did find yesterday some neat pictures of him and my mom when they were young.
[00:11:16.140]That might be fun to share, If you guys are interested in that.
[00:11:19.440]I'd be very much interested. I know, I know what your father looks like,
[00:11:22.620]but I haven't seen a photo of your mother yet, so.
[00:11:26.480]Yeah, I'm going to get emotional again anyway. No,
[00:11:31.170]he was a very caring guy. You know,
[00:11:33.930]I think honestly for another opinion you might, if you can get one there's
[00:11:38.730]there's a, actually, well, I don't have one down here. There's a
[00:11:43.800]Lincoln historical book called Lincoln Looks Back. It's primarily a photography
[00:11:48.690]book. And I think I might've told Beth this, but,
[00:11:53.590]I ran across, quite by accident one time,
[00:11:57.880]doing some things for the state and happened to be killing some time and
[00:12:02.260]thumbing through it. And it had a lot of pictures and it had pictures of Gold's.
[00:12:06.550]And my dad's auto store was caddy corner from Gold's. And I thought, wow,
[00:12:10.810]maybe there's a picture maybe in the corner or some picture of this of Gold's.
[00:12:14.650]I'll get to see my dad's store, which was Hank's Auto store.
[00:12:17.380]Cause I worked there when I was a kid and a lot of summers and
[00:12:21.220]I turned to,
[00:12:23.620]I think it's page 62 and not only was there a picture,
[00:12:26.800]there's an entire chapter about my dad and his store in this book,
[00:12:31.810]written by a guy who used to go down and hang out with him who loved cars.
[00:12:36.130]I think the guy's name was Dick Bezel. I've meant to contact him. I never did,
[00:12:39.670]but he mostly,
[00:12:42.760]the chapter is about how much he appreciated my dad doing stuff
[00:12:47.650]for him. He said
[00:12:48.640]my dad had all these great old car parts and helped him out with all this stuff
[00:12:52.270]and was just a great guy to work with.
[00:12:55.000]And I think it's a neat outside look at the kind of a guy that he was.
[00:12:59.800]He was a very kind guy and
[00:13:04.450]very caring and at least as a father that was very loving. He was,
[00:13:09.820]he and my mom were consistent church goers.
[00:13:14.530]When we lived on a Monterey Drive
[00:13:19.090]in east Lincoln, we went to Vine Congregational Church.
[00:13:22.990]I grew up . And he was politically conservative. He did not like government.
[00:13:27.970]I still remember in the fifties,
[00:13:30.220]him ranting about quote unquote graft and corruption in government,
[00:13:33.910]guess what? Nothing changes, right?
[00:13:38.380]but he was
[00:13:41.410]not at all a person
[00:13:43.630]who I would say was notably bitter about the war.
[00:13:47.860]I would also,
[00:13:48.700]I think another person that I should mention is my father-in-law,
[00:13:53.380]because my dad was in, Europe as you know,
[00:13:57.970]my wife Sue's father fought in the Pacific and just was in horrible battles,
[00:14:02.700]were enormous percentages of people
[00:14:07.360]in his unit were killed.
[00:14:09.670]He was a tank commander and raiding Pacific islands and stuff like that.
[00:14:14.230]And he was a very, very kind man as well.
[00:14:18.430]He had difficulties after the war, recovered,
[00:14:21.010]came , and both of our fathers were very loyal,
[00:14:25.720]loving husbands, and
[00:14:29.680]loyal to their wives. Fidelity was important to them.
[00:14:34.180]They were both small businessmen.
[00:14:37.600]My father-in-law ran Lincoln Maytag,
[00:14:39.640]and then my dad's business was Hank's Auto Stores, which
[00:14:43.240]he opened shortly after the war.
[00:14:47.290]So he was an entrepreneur, came back and started a business.
[00:14:50.380]and it's hard to run a small business. I mean,
[00:14:52.700]I grew up with him worrying about it overnight.
[00:14:55.880]in many nights when things were not going all that well.
[00:15:00.860]He was,
[00:15:03.050]my parents were, to me, not at all racial.
[00:15:07.460]We never had racial slurs in our home. They were
[00:15:12.370]respectful, I think of all people.
[00:15:17.780]and, and he did not.
[00:15:20.390]The one note I made is he did not despise the German people at all.
[00:15:25.250]He, I think he felt they were victims of this whole
[00:15:30.230]war event, just like he was. You know, he didn't want to go.
[00:15:33.380]And most of those guys and their wives didn't want them to go either.
[00:15:38.030]I'm sure.
[00:15:38.750]but the one group that he and his fellow comrades after Dachau
[00:15:43.670]did despise were people in the SS.
[00:15:47.210]And I remember him telling me, and I don't know if it's in his letters, but he,
[00:15:50.810]but he did tell me one time that after Dachau, whenever they caught someone,
[00:15:55.130]one of the people that was in the SS, they shot him on site. They just couldn't,
[00:15:59.750]they thought what they had done was so horrible that,
[00:16:03.650]they just had absolutely complete intolerance for them as human
[00:16:08.180]beings. But all others, they had no, no animosity to,
[00:16:12.770]to the best of my ability to tell. But
[00:16:15.480]I digressed a little bit off my original track.
[00:16:17.780]I wanted to share something about Sue's, Sue's dad.
[00:16:20.510]Because of all he went through in the Pacific fighting the Japanese. Ethan,
[00:16:24.890]I don't know if you know this, but,
[00:16:27.230]our two children are both adopted from Asia. They're now,
[00:16:31.820]adults and our son is in Omaha and he's, he's autistic,
[00:16:35.450]but he's living independently with some help from us and a very loyal
[00:16:40.310]employee at Walmart, which has been really good to him.
[00:16:43.040]And our daughter got her master's in Public Administration and is married and
[00:16:47.180]lives in Lincoln. But Sue and I were worried when we decided to adopt our,
[00:16:51.910]our kids from South Korea,
[00:16:53.330]that her father would have a problem with that because of all of his war
[00:16:57.230]experiences. And he absolutely loved our kids. There was
[00:17:03.050]no problem at all. So
[00:17:06.200]I was touched by that. Anyway, so he was a neat guy,
[00:17:09.350]like my wife said this morning, she said,
[00:17:11.450]you shouldn't worry about this interview, Tom, your dad was a neat guy.
[00:17:14.900]Your father had a way of like, recognizing people's like humanity,
[00:17:19.970]even though he understood that like, okay,
[00:17:21.860]these are my enemies at the same time. Like it never,
[00:17:25.670]like he never described these people as necessarily like subhuman.
[00:17:30.740]He never, you know,
[00:17:33.260]he never like glorified violence against them. Like he didn't,
[00:17:37.490]he didn't revel in, you know, the violence of the war. He,
[00:17:41.690]he deplored it, you know, entirely. And I think, you know,
[00:17:44.540]that speaks to the fact that he was a medic. You know, he, in a lot of ways,
[00:17:47.930]he probably saw some of the worst parts of the war, you know,
[00:17:50.490]taking care of people. And in fact,
[00:17:53.400]a letter I was just reading this morning, just kind of to recap,
[00:17:57.750]Clarence was talking about how, at a certain point, you know,
[00:18:02.730]later in the war, a lot of times the casualties wouldn't be American soldiers.
[00:18:06.480]They would be Nazis. They would be German soldiers, you know,
[00:18:10.530]and how the majority of the soldiers he was taking care of most of the time
[00:18:14.400]were, you know, enemies and how they still helped them.
[00:18:19.200]You know, like if they were injured and especially like if it was a Nazi family,
[00:18:23.130]they would, they would help these kids. Like, you know,
[00:18:26.190]mothers of officers would bring their kids in when they got sick and they would
[00:18:30.720]take care of these kids. And he remarked something. Like,
[00:18:34.380]I hope that they treat, you know,
[00:18:36.660]our POW's as well as we treat theirs, you know?
[00:18:40.740]Like he, he certainly, I mean,
[00:18:43.560]your father was an incredible man.
[00:18:48.020]What are those moments that still stick out to you?
[00:18:50.330]Like primarily when you think of your father?
[00:18:53.000]Well, he was, he was a super neat guy. I, you know,
[00:18:55.760]I jotted down just some descriptors of him. And you know,
[00:19:00.560]I thought he,
[00:19:01.910]he was a man that displayed dignity. He had self-discipline. He was very
[00:19:06.230]hardworking. I mean, you know, small business is not easy.
[00:19:10.970]And, he worked six days a week and the seventh day of week,
[00:19:15.740]he didn't rest. At least until I got old enough,
[00:19:18.620]he mowed the lawn and did stuff around the house and so on.
[00:19:22.730]I think that's the way people were back then, maybe more than they are now,
[00:19:27.830]but, and he didn't begrudge that. I think he was,
[00:19:33.140]proud of his accomplishment as a person that built a small business and,
[00:19:37.810]and he had, he had,
[00:19:40.920]I used to have lunch with him and some of the people he hung out with,
[00:19:44.900]when I was working there and we'd go over to Gold's and have lunch with people,
[00:19:48.290]like one guy who was a Justice on the Supreme Court.
[00:19:51.410]And one of the other guys that showed up was General Henninger who ran the
[00:19:54.440]National Guard for the state. And so I don't know how he met all those people,
[00:19:58.940]but he was involved in
[00:20:01.640]the Masons and some other civic organizations. And he seemed to be,
[00:20:06.320]seemed to know people and be pretty well known around the city. They had,
[00:20:11.120]they were involved in something called the Cosmopolitan Club where they had,
[00:20:14.480]they played bridge every Friday night and they'd come over to our house and play
[00:20:18.110]bridge. I know that very well, your father mentions it a lot in the letters.
[00:20:24.920]They love, they loved bridge. He and my mom,
[00:20:28.970]One thing that is fairly common from what little I know from the people that I
[00:20:33.500]know that were in World War II. It's probably true and actually from, from guys
[00:20:37.760]I know that were practically in any war, including some good friends of ours,
[00:20:41.960]somebody that was in Vietnam is that they don't talk about it when they get
[00:20:45.980]home. I mean, my father
[00:20:46.790]my aside from his Holocaust experiences,
[00:20:51.070]which he never really described in detail, but he would, I mean,
[00:20:55.480]he was certainly talked about that it happened.
[00:20:57.820]He didn't elaborate on the particulars. And we did, by the way,
[00:21:01.690]when we went to Europe, we did of course visit Dachau. And
[00:21:06.310]And that was,
[00:21:08.710]that would have been really neat to have recorded because we walked around and
[00:21:12.760]he was describing where he took his pictures. Now, Beth has,
[00:21:17.140]have you been to Dachau, Beth? Okay, well, it's, you know,
[00:21:21.970]it's sanitized now. It's, I don't know if it's good or bad,
[00:21:25.240]but the buildings are all painted white and you know,
[00:21:27.640]it sort of looks like a school playground.
[00:21:29.590]There's a very elaborate museum of artifacts and documents.
[00:21:34.360]And in fact there's a, a book that was,
[00:21:37.720]that is published in English that we have copies of from Dachau.
[00:21:43.150]But he was able to describe where the railroad cars were and where he took his
[00:21:46.480]pictures and other things. Although the truth is now that, you know,
[00:21:50.020]it's probably, I don't know how he could have remembered it because I think the,
[00:21:54.310]the whole site has been so, I don't know,
[00:21:59.260]changed, let's say. And, and, as I said, sanitized,
[00:22:03.910]I think that's probably right. I don't think it has the, you wouldn't,
[00:22:08.910]how would you say this? How do you make it, how do you make it be,
[00:22:14.500]appropriate and carry the horror that it was, you can't really do that publicly.
[00:22:18.700]So I get that part, but, I think it would have been interesting for,
[00:22:23.230]especially in this context to have had a record of him describing where those
[00:22:27.910]things happened in, within the, within the area of Dachau itself.
[00:22:31.990]But I'm sure that probably they have that information somewhere from other
[00:22:34.870]observers, but it would have been, it would have been pretty, pretty cool.
[00:22:40.510]I am curious to know, like when,
[00:22:42.940]when you went on this trip back to Europe and particularly when you were back at
[00:22:46.900]Dachau,
[00:22:49.000]was that an emotional experience like for your father?
[00:22:53.860]Yeah, I think, I think it was. You know, it wasn't, he wasn't,
[00:22:58.600]he was, probably a typical man of his era,
[00:23:02.140]which is that emotions are really, you don't wear those on your slave.
[00:23:06.460]But he was clearly touched by it. And I mean, how could you not be, you know.
[00:23:11.170]and I, I mean, I was as well, but, you know, but having, going back and,
[00:23:16.330]and being actually on the spot where you actually were there before,
[00:23:20.290]when it was actually happening, had to be a very emotional, I mean,
[00:23:24.790]I get emotional when I go in the neighborhood I grew up in Lincoln. So, I mean,
[00:23:28.840]imagine what this must've been like for him. And, you know, we had,
[00:23:33.040]we had mostly, we had good times, we had some good memories and,
[00:23:37.810]and, you know, I think it was in some ways bittersweet for him, but it was,
[00:23:42.250]but he treasured the fact that we did it. And, it was,
[00:23:45.980]it was interesting because I know my wife, my wife,
[00:23:48.540]my wife had been to Europe one summer.
[00:23:50.180]She spent the whole summer there with a girlfriend of hers. And then,
[00:23:52.730]so we're going back and it's kind of like, well,
[00:23:55.100]do we really want to do this with your parents? And, you know, and, and we did.
[00:23:58.930]And it turned out to be just a great time. We just had, we had a wonderful time.
[00:24:03.080]They were great people to hang out with anyway, but, you know,
[00:24:06.320]obviously there was an age difference. Do we want to, do we want to do this?
[00:24:10.490]But it was, uh, it was enlightening and a lot of fun. And, I have to say,
[00:24:14.840]I would say it was just a great trip. Really was.
[00:24:18.320]Was that,
[00:24:18.950]was that the first time that he had had the chance to go back to Europe?
[00:24:23.360]He mentions so many times in his letters, how badly he wants to take,
[00:24:28.310]your mother, like to Europe with him someday. It's like,
[00:24:32.000]he wanted that so badly for them. I was curious, like, did they end up going,
[00:24:36.620]ever on their own?
[00:24:38.240]Uh, no, that was it for us. They went with us that one time. And,
[00:24:43.310]you know, we obviously, some places we would do.
[00:24:45.860]We would kind of split up. My wife and I like to go hiking in the mountains.
[00:24:48.980]So when we stayed in the Alps one time,
[00:24:50.720]Sue and I went up and went hiking and my folks did other stuff.
[00:24:54.440]Mostly we did everything together, but, that was it. You know,
[00:24:58.940]that was our trip. They did a lot of traveling around the United States,
[00:25:03.800]with a group called Talk Tours after we were, you know,
[00:25:06.860]my wife and I had moved to Omaha and we kind of were living more of our separate
[00:25:10.940]lives then, but I don't recall that they ever went back to Europe.
[00:25:16.370]But maybe I'll find a photo album and find that I'm wrong.
[00:25:21.140]He liked to take pictures, as you know.
[00:25:24.620]I think we can probably move on to the next one.
[00:25:26.480]You've already talked a little bit about like what your dad did after the
[00:25:31.130]war.
[00:25:33.200]I didn't know that he went and started a business afterwards.
[00:25:37.640]A lot of my knowledge of your father, you know,
[00:25:40.190]kind of ends after that last letter that he sends to your mother. So,
[00:25:45.080]I'm really,
[00:25:45.440]it's really cool to hear that he became an entrepreneur and came back and,
[00:25:49.880]was, you know, an active member of his community.
[00:25:54.500]So initially this, this question was,
[00:25:56.690]how did your father spend the rest of his life after the war?
[00:25:59.630]But I think the more important part of this question is like,
[00:26:02.480]what was your father's life mission? You know?
[00:26:06.560]I think, you know, basically he wanted to be a good man.
[00:26:11.180]In the oldest sense of the term. I don't know if that means what to you,
[00:26:14.750]what it does to someone of my vintage, but, you know.
[00:26:21.970]When I say that,
[00:26:26.350]I think about a closing line in the Band of Brothers,
[00:26:30.430]or actually Saving Private Ryan. That's what I'm thinking of.
[00:26:34.000]That's when I say a good man, that's if you've seen that
[00:26:38.950]movie at the end, that's what I think his life mission was.
[00:26:44.520]It's more just than being a neat guy and he,
[00:26:49.260]and he was. So I think a big part of that was what you're doing was,
[00:26:54.990]was educating about this life experience,
[00:27:00.180]was really important to him. And, he, he spent,
[00:27:05.190]a significant amount of effort and he was always willing to go do that.
[00:27:10.680]Um, I had another thought, but it left me briefly.
[00:27:14.970]Maybe I'll come back. But, I think that's, that's
[00:27:20.070]what his life mission was. His,
[00:27:24.900]his father left their family,
[00:27:29.040]early in his life. I don't know how old he was, but,
[00:27:32.880]when he was growing up in Crescent on his dad went out and
[00:27:37.170]married somebody in, I believe in Idaho and,
[00:27:42.570]I haven't really,
[00:27:43.770]he also had a brother that he did not keep in touch with and I,
[00:27:46.990]and I don't know why there was something going on there that I don't know
[00:27:50.280]anything about. But, I know that his, his dad,
[00:27:55.230]remarried out west and,
[00:27:57.900]and someone that is in the Mormon faith,
[00:28:00.540]because they've contacted me from time to time.
[00:28:02.730]I need to kind of follow up with them and find out about what happened out that
[00:28:06.270]way. But, but maybe that, you know, it's interesting because often,
[00:28:11.070]often men that are, that come from homes where their father is,
[00:28:15.390]has deserted the family are, less loyal.
[00:28:18.900]but that was definitely not, he broke the cycle, let's say,
[00:28:23.070]and it does tend to be a cycle if you, if you, if you follow,
[00:28:27.570]sociology at all, but, but he didn't do that.
[00:28:30.990]And so I think he clearly, clearly loved my mom and wanted to be,
[00:28:35.010]willing to be a neat husband and dad,
[00:28:37.650]and to be successful in his life. And he was.
[00:28:42.900]No, you're, you're completely right. You're, at least from the, from the letters.
[00:28:47.460]I can tell that, you know, your father really, really,
[00:28:50.520]really loved your mother. I mean, he was, he wrote every day, you know,
[00:28:54.810]and it wasn't just like he wrote a small thing. He wrote four, five pages a day.
[00:28:58.950]You know, I feel like in a lot of ways,
[00:29:00.900]your father's motivation to get back home and to finish the war was
[00:29:05.790]your mother, you know, like it,
[00:29:07.650]it seems that that was his preoccupation all the time.
[00:29:12.210]And I mean, it's completely understandable too. It's,
[00:29:16.830]it really was beautiful. There,
[00:29:18.330]there are some moments and I hope you get to read them soon.
[00:29:22.710]There are some moments that are really, really touching,
[00:29:24.780]particularly when he's talking about,
[00:29:27.600]your mother and just how much he loved her.
[00:29:32.100]I see a lot of reflections in like how,
[00:29:35.580]like I have felt in my own relationships in my own life. And, you know,
[00:29:38.910]like the way that he talks about, your mother, like,
[00:29:43.570]he just, he adored her and, you know, it, you know,
[00:29:48.550]this was 80 years ago, these letters or whatever, but in a lot of ways, it,
[00:29:52.390]it reads like, you know, a modern love story, you know,
[00:29:55.150]like it's not so different. It really wasn't. And,
[00:29:59.890]It truly was. It's, it's an amazing,
[00:30:02.320]it's an amazing thing to go through all the letters. And, that's, I mean
[00:30:07.210]I truly, like to say
[00:30:08.720]your dad loved your mother is really an understatement and like
[00:30:11.510]to say that he was loyal like that, that,
[00:30:14.970]that completely is consistent with what I've read for sure.
[00:30:19.660]Yeah. Well, it's, you know, and I dunno. Yeah. And, I,
[00:30:25.330]well, two unrelated comments. One is when he went to the war,
[00:30:29.770]if you calculate his age, he was an older soldier. So, you know,
[00:30:34.300]he went with a lot of maturity that you wouldn't have found in
[00:30:39.220]some much younger soldier. And probably which was in part an
[00:30:43.870]influencer and electing to take a camera with him.
[00:30:47.980]Although I actually, if there's one question about all that I'd love to ask you,
[00:30:52.900]if it's like, why in the world do you do that? Who does that kind of thing?
[00:30:57.520]Right. But he was an older soldier, I think that's, that's in there.
[00:31:02.200]And I think he's,
[00:31:04.240]As soon as I really started getting invested in all of it,
[00:31:08.620]I was amazed by the impact.
[00:31:10.090]And it was interesting because there were times where I'd be transcribing a
[00:31:14.350]letter and it would parallel something that was going on in my own life,
[00:31:18.670]That's cool. You know, It's, it was really incredible.
[00:31:23.710]just cause I mean,
[00:31:24.730]a lot of ways in a lot of ways that the letters he's sending to your mother are
[00:31:28.960]very personal, you know, and that's,
[00:31:30.750]that's why I hope you get to get to read them because they are just so,
[00:31:34.330]you know, they're so candid, so personal. There were,
[00:31:39.280]there were just so many times when, you know,
[00:31:41.500]I could totally understand where he was coming from and I felt like he
[00:31:46.390]understood me in a way too. And I, what,
[00:31:49.960]even, what was so evident to me, you know, particularly as we're like,
[00:31:55.000]kind of closing up with this collection is just how, like,
[00:31:59.500]I always viewed history so abstractly, and the people of the past as like,
[00:32:04.270]you know, you know, almost superficially, but like these,
[00:32:08.880]these people, the past, your father, you know,
[00:32:11.380]all the Holocaust survivors were talking about,
[00:32:13.300]they were real people with relationships and families and trials
[00:32:18.160]and, you know, they had their own problems and their own moments of, you know,
[00:32:23.170]happiness and sadness. And, truly,
[00:32:26.950]I feel like this whole project has just been a, like,
[00:32:30.310]almost like a study of humanity in a lot of ways. And that's,
[00:32:33.970]what's so beautiful about this entire thing. So no, I did not anticipate having,
[00:32:38.990]you know, just such a, a philosophical awakening because of this project,
[00:32:43.220]but indeed it has happened and, you know,
[00:32:46.880]I'm all the more grateful for it.
[00:32:49.370]Tom, do you remember your dad going into schools?
[00:32:53.120]Like what kinds of classes invited him?
[00:32:57.320]What prompted them to invite him and what he would say after he visited
[00:33:01.880]schools?
[00:33:03.320]You know, he didn't talk about that much.
[00:33:07.340]My very hazy, vague,
[00:33:10.460]low confidence remembrance was intended to be high schools. And,
[00:33:15.380]I think,
[00:33:16.690]I don't know that there was any org- institutional organizational background
[00:33:21.170]that, that got him. I think it was maybe word of mouth more than anything else.
[00:33:26.000]I think teachers,
[00:33:27.320]I remember once I think he said a teacher would ask him to come somehow. And I,
[00:33:31.910]you know, I don't know, I don't know how that happened. I mean,
[00:33:35.240]he was also very active in veteran's organizations,
[00:33:39.380]Legion Club. We used to eat there regularly. He was,
[00:33:42.410]there's a group called The Forty and Eight.
[00:33:45.050]That is sort of a special military group. He was in, I don't know what they do.
[00:33:49.610]I, you know, I, by the way, I did find, Beth,
[00:33:53.970]some more of his military artifacts, more of,
[00:33:59.150]issues of parts of uniforms and things like that, that you may be interested in,
[00:34:05.690]but I don't, I don't exactly know how, how they managed to contact him.
[00:34:10.820]maybe I'll find something, that'll explain that. And I think sadly,
[00:34:14.480]most of the people that they were good friends with are no longer living,
[00:34:17.810]of course.
[00:34:21.140]I don't know who I could ask.
[00:34:26.210]I think the Band of Brothers is the best war movie ever made. Personally.
[00:34:29.870]I think it's better than Saving Private Ryan. It's not, because they interview
[00:34:34.100]the guys that were there, which is part of it. And it's extremely well done.
[00:34:38.120]And I think that liberation scene, is, I don't know how they filmed it.
[00:34:42.830]It's incredibly scarily realistic. I just,
[00:34:46.070]I just don't even know, you know,
[00:34:48.440]where they got those guys and how they pulled it together like that.
[00:34:53.900]It's just, it is, it's an amazing movie.
[00:34:58.880]I could digress into the scene, one of the scenes I like, but it's irrelevant.
[00:35:05.120]Yeah, we can, we can talk about it when we go to lunch. How about that?
[00:35:09.470]All right. So I think, next question,
[00:35:13.370]I think we also talked about this a little bit,
[00:35:17.450]but the next question on my list was about how the war affected your father.
[00:35:22.820]I would, I'm, I'm totally conjecturing, I mean,
[00:35:27.140]a hundred percent conjecturing, cause I didn't know him of course,
[00:35:29.570]but I would say probably both.
[00:35:33.560]I think in many ways he was probably considered every day a blessing,
[00:35:38.190]that he made it back alive and,
[00:35:42.810]and that he wanted to bring out the best in people and,
[00:35:48.000]his family, me, his friends.
[00:35:52.410]I'm sure there was, in some ways that I don't understand, you know,
[00:35:57.090]I'll use it probably naive term loss of innocence of what people can do to
[00:36:01.860]people.
[00:36:04.100]I would imagine going to war is a real reality check and,
[00:36:08.730]something that I wouldn't wish that kind of reality
[00:36:13.590]check on anyone. But we live in the United States. We live in Disneyland.
[00:36:18.870]Cause I think he came back really understanding how valuable life is,
[00:36:24.180]and, appreciating, his country,
[00:36:27.840]which he was deeply proud of his country,
[00:36:30.930]very patriotic about the United States and that it was by far the
[00:36:35.880]best country in the world, which I still believe by the way. So,
[00:36:40.470]I think that it probably affected him that way, but you know,
[00:36:44.280]I don't know that I can elaborate any more detail and as I say,
[00:36:47.250]that's totally a guess. So.
[00:36:52.230]I think, I think that's an incredible answer. And I mean,
[00:36:55.530]I think that's reflected, it's reflected in the letters.
[00:36:59.750]I think too, when he came back as a veteran veterans were honored,
[00:37:03.280]then unlike after Vietnam,
[00:37:07.060]they came back literally as heroes and you know, and it was, you know,
[00:37:11.590]you can look at the old world, the,
[00:37:13.550]all the movies that come out after World War II that celebrate the success and
[00:37:18.550]the war. I mean, look at White Christmas and, you know,
[00:37:20.650]you could name a bunch of them that kind of hearkened back to those days.
[00:37:24.670]it was, it was a time where that service was valued.
[00:37:28.570]And like back when I was in college and Vietnam was, was such a mess.
[00:37:33.550]So a lot went into it. I think that,
[00:37:36.560]I think coming back to my mom was a real stabilizing factor to him. She was,
[00:37:40.930]and we're not talking about my mom, but we should because she's was a neat lady.
[00:37:45.880]I mean, she never went to high school either,
[00:37:47.710]but it was a very successful, honestly, business woman.
[00:37:51.400]She didn't have her own business, but she was, as I recall,
[00:37:53.950]secretary for a bank president in Council Bluffs and what,
[00:37:58.540]you're lucky, you're not reading her letters because they were all in shorthand.
[00:38:02.510]You know what shorthand is? Yes, I know what shorthand is. She did all, she,
[00:38:06.790]all her first stuff at home,
[00:38:07.930]grocery lists and everything were utterly illegible because they were all in
[00:38:11.080]shorthand because that was the way she took dictation.
[00:38:14.200]And what I remember was back in this,
[00:38:16.000]when would this have been in the twenties or thirties?
[00:38:18.730]One of the things that she did was go into the bank president's office one
[00:38:22.120]day and complain that she wasn't making as much as men. I love it.
[00:38:27.760]So, there was a, there were two strong people in my family,
[00:38:32.440]not just one.
[00:38:34.960]That's, that's pretty nice to hear. I've,
[00:38:37.690]I've read a couple of your mother's letters.
[00:38:39.790]We have a few of those in the collection, I believe.
[00:38:42.490]So I've read a little bit about, I saw, I know your mother a little bit.
[00:38:46.930]I know obviously your mother through what your father says about her,
[00:38:50.710]but that's interesting.
[00:38:52.390]It's interesting to hear you say that she went in demanded equal pay.
[00:38:57.010]I think that's reflective of a lot.
[00:39:02.050]so we can, we can move on if we want.
[00:39:07.720]I think we talked a little about this before, but I don't,
[00:39:10.210]I think it would be nice to go over it again.
[00:39:13.480]I was wondering if your father stayed in contact with any of his other,
[00:39:18.370]fellow soldiers or just his friends that he made along, you know,
[00:39:21.640]along the way of the war.
[00:39:24.730]I'm just really curious to know if you know,
[00:39:27.130]all these people that I have heard so much about and were
[00:39:31.450]obviously part of a very important part of his life,
[00:39:34.540]whether or not he stayed in contact with those, those guys.
[00:39:38.900]That's a terrific question. And I, and I really have a complete,
[00:39:42.560]almost a complete vacancy there.
[00:39:44.210]I don't remember, that any objective evidence one way or
[00:39:49.190]the other. I don't remember phone calls.
[00:39:51.470]I don't remember that they made special trips to get together.
[00:39:55.640]I don't remember any of them visiting our home. So,
[00:39:59.810]and of course back in that day, we had to, you couldn't do a zoom call,
[00:40:04.760]you know, basically it was a long distance call or you would write a letter.
[00:40:09.320]and so he might've kept in contact. I'm guessing in some of his,
[00:40:14.750]veteran's organizations locally,
[00:40:17.060]that there were friends there and I know he made friends there. One,
[00:40:21.440]one couple in particular, they did a lot of traveling with,
[00:40:24.710]and I think that's where they met, but, I'm, I'm not, I just don't know.
[00:40:29.990]I don't really have any idea. He didn't, if, so it was not a real,
[00:40:33.520]like a real big deal for him, but you,
[00:40:35.240]but you have to also remember what I told you about his working life,
[00:40:39.830]which was pretty arduous. I mean, he, he ran a store, right? It was,
[00:40:44.300]it was our livelihood. And, so I mean, he was,
[00:40:48.170]that's where he put in, a lot of his time, you know,
[00:40:51.680]like when we opened, I think we opened every day. I'm trying to remember,
[00:40:56.330]I think it was eight thirty, eight or eight thirty and closed at five or five
[00:41:00.860]thirty. And, and then and in the old days in Lincoln
[00:41:05.570]before all,
[00:41:08.840]all the shopping centers came in when downtown Lincoln actually was cool-
[00:41:14.630]I don't mean to deride downtown Lincoln now,
[00:41:16.850]but it's a shadow of its former self. That's where everything happened.
[00:41:21.110]That's where the shopping was. Every Christmas,
[00:41:23.000]all the lights were on and everybody went downtown and,
[00:41:26.390]Thursday nights were the,f
[00:41:29.420]evening that all the stores were open.
[00:41:31.790]And so Hank's Auto was open every Thursday night.
[00:41:35.600]And I can't remember till when maybe eight or something like that.
[00:41:38.270]I can't recall.
[00:41:39.080]But Thursday nights were the big nights in downtown Lincoln where everybody
[00:41:42.200]stayed open and then on Sunday, everything was closed. So,
[00:41:46.310]all that changed when, Gateway came.
[00:41:51.290]And then that was, I remember that was a big challenge for,
[00:41:54.310]for my dad worrying about what that was going to do.
[00:41:56.510]And then things started to loosen up after that.
[00:41:58.700]And then everybody was open all the time,
[00:42:01.100]which was hard for him cause he just had a few employees. So anyway,
[00:42:05.090]I digress.
[00:42:10.430]So anyway, so I don't actually,
[00:42:13.600]recall or know what he did with, with the, with the guys,
[00:42:18.380]in his album. And I guess possibly if were I to look at some of the names,
[00:42:22.370]I might recognize a name or two, I've not meticulously done that.
[00:42:27.010]What are the names of the couple who you mentioned that they traveled with?
[00:42:30.910]Ooh, um, I'm not remembering it.
[00:42:35.900]I, I think I can find it, but they are no longer living,
[00:42:40.900]but he was, but I, but I do know that, that they were,
[00:42:44.650]they work very close friends and,
[00:42:48.220]and very helpful when my mom and dad, they were as,
[00:42:52.810]I think maybe a little younger, they were very helpful to me personally,
[00:42:56.620]when we became struggling with,
[00:43:00.400]illness in the older age ages. So.
[00:43:06.000]I was, I was curious whether or not your father,
[00:43:09.150]was he ever a part of like the American Legion? Did he ever?
[00:43:12.810]Oh, yeah, he did all that stuff.
[00:43:19.160]How much did your father talk about the war?
[00:43:23.300]And you mentioned that he doesn't meant, he didn't mention a whole lot,
[00:43:25.790]but I guess more specifically, like how much did he mention, like, Dachau?
[00:43:30.560]You know, like, obviously that was probably the, you know,
[00:43:35.600]the worst thing he saw during the war was the liberation of Dachau.
[00:43:39.140]I was curious if that was a conversation that he,
[00:43:44.030]you know, was that not something that he immediately revealed to you?
[00:43:47.630]Was that something that he eventually sat you down and talked about? Like,
[00:43:51.260]how has, how has that approached?
[00:43:54.680]Yeah. No, there was, it was, there was nothing,
[00:43:58.400]it was not like there was an intentional conversation where we sat down and
[00:44:02.420]said, let's talk about Dachau. That did not happen. I mean, I was aware of it.
[00:44:07.880]I grew, you know, the materials that you all have,
[00:44:11.420]or things that I looked at a lot when I was growing up. So, you know, there's a,
[00:44:16.370]the Rainbow Division Book has pictures of it.
[00:44:19.100]I knew I looked through his album and I knew,
[00:44:21.730]and I looked through the other artifacts that I, because I grew up with those,
[00:44:26.120]which has, I know I've, maybe I've told Beth, I don't know, but,
[00:44:29.840]but because I grew up with this and knew so much about it, honestly I,
[00:44:33.960]people have asked me,
[00:44:36.720]so have you been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC? And my answer is no,
[00:44:40.770]and I'm not going to. You know, I just, you know, I grew up with it.
[00:44:44.340]It's horrible. Maybe there would be something there that would,
[00:44:47.820]that I would find,
[00:44:50.850]that would change my view in some fashion, but I just, you know,
[00:44:54.870]I just can't, I don't think I can deal with it. And so I, you know, I'm not,
[00:44:59.790]you know, I've, I've never gone to that. But I think it's,
[00:45:03.930]I think I know people that have found it extremely,
[00:45:09.810]informative and challenging and,
[00:45:16.860]what would be the term? Inspirational would be a term and,
[00:45:21.210]depressing all together. But
[00:45:25.650]because I grew up with it then, you know, my knowledge of,
[00:45:29.460]of it is visual and from reading, but the only thing I,
[00:45:33.510]that I remember for sure,
[00:45:34.800]that he talked about was what I mentioned is that after they liberated Dachau
[00:45:39.580]if they ever,
[00:45:40.470]if they he or his comrades ever came across someone that was with the SS,
[00:45:45.680]the SS, they would shoot him because of what they did.
[00:45:49.530]They just considered it to be so horrible. And so,
[00:45:53.430]completely inhumane that,
[00:45:54.800]that they just had complete and total hatred for that particular
[00:45:59.640]group, but all the, but he never,
[00:46:02.340]they didn't feel that way about the common German soldier or the common people
[00:46:06.240]or anything like that.
[00:46:07.260]But they just felt that somebody that could orchestrate that sort of,
[00:46:11.430]inhuman atrocity was not worthy to live. And,
[00:46:16.050]and I, and I, I remember him saying that and I mean, I doubt he was a medic,
[00:46:20.490]so he couldn't carry a gun.
[00:46:23.160]Actually one artifact I have from his that is kind of interesting is a knife
[00:46:27.930]about this long. They were allowed to carry a knife for self protection.
[00:46:32.370]And so he had had a, basically had a Bowie knife for them through the war,
[00:46:36.300]which actually I still have.
[00:46:39.750]but which he never had to use.
[00:46:43.410]But they had no regard for, for those guys. I, you know,
[00:46:47.460]that's the one comment that for some reason stuck there might've been others
[00:46:51.180]that I don't remember, but he didn't spend a lot of time talking about it.
[00:46:55.680]So I kind of learned about it from the other things that I grew up around.
[00:47:02.290]Certainly your photos, your father took,
[00:47:05.260]certainly had an effect on me.
[00:47:10.030]and I think that's all the more reason that we, we do need to meet,
[00:47:12.910]because I mean, I feel like in some ways your father, you know,
[00:47:17.080]has had such a powerful effect on, on just myself.
[00:47:21.100]And now he's going to have such a powerful effect on, you know,
[00:47:24.190]any college student who goes through and looks at these resources. And frankly,
[00:47:28.090]another thing I think needs to get mentioned too, is that like,
[00:47:31.030]it's not like in a few years, like if they stopped, you know,
[00:47:34.990]for some reason the classes at Wesleyan stopped using your father's stuff,
[00:47:38.050]that means that, that, that stuff won't ever be used like history. I mean,
[00:47:42.640]in a hundred years, you know, there are going to be historians looking back,
[00:47:46.000]we've still studying the Holocaust to 300. I mean, history goes on, you know,
[00:47:50.830]and so the stuff we're doing right now is, I mean,
[00:47:53.890]this stuff could be beneficial to people in fifty or a hundred years.
[00:47:58.000]And that's what I'm hoping it is. And I mean, we're,
[00:48:01.700]we're kind of at the point where we're almost, you know, a lot of the,
[00:48:05.900]the survivors and a lot of the veterans of World War II are passing away now.
[00:48:11.470]So like this,
[00:48:13.210]this is like that time when we need to be doing this the most, I think.
[00:48:18.460]And, it's, I think it's really,
[00:48:22.840]really powerful stuff. It's had quite the effect on my life.
[00:48:27.820]Oh, that's wonderful. It's personal.
[00:48:31.090]Yeah. And I, this actually kind of goes into my next question as well,
[00:48:35.200]which I was going to ask, like, so obviously your father has had an effect,
[00:48:40.210]you know, on my life already. I was wondering what kind of effect he had,
[00:48:44.050]you know, his life had on yours and the influence he had on your life. And,
[00:48:48.100]you know, I think I even asked, like, was he, was he your role model? You know,
[00:48:51.610]like you, who was your father to you and the, the effect he had on your life?
[00:48:57.280]Yeah, no clear in a word. Yes, he was. Yeah.
[00:49:01.030]Clearly I think my role model. And,
[00:49:06.670]I, I think for people that grew up,
[00:49:09.910]particularly boys that grew up in a good home with a good father,
[00:49:13.540]that that's probably almost certainly correct.
[00:49:16.680]perhaps you can elaborate on that as well, but I think, I think that is,
[00:49:22.480]that can segue into a lot of discussion about what the issues are with a family,
[00:49:26.350]today, which are very significant. But,
[00:49:31.120]I, I guess two things that come to mind,
[00:49:35.170]not totally about him, but about our family. I think when I was growing up,
[00:49:39.460]one thing that both was true for both me and my wife is that we consider our,
[00:49:43.260]our homes to be totally and completely safe,
[00:49:46.600]where we were totally and completely loved whatever the age,
[00:49:49.810]whatever happen that, that we had a safe,
[00:49:54.520]that was the ultimate safe space for us. And I think that that, that certainly,
[00:50:00.010]comes out of that kind of presence. And the other thing is I really,
[00:50:03.820]I know I made a note that I'm,
[00:50:05.440]I'm unaware that either my father or my mother ever lied to me or
[00:50:10.390]anyone else, it's not to say people don't say, yeah, well,
[00:50:15.040]I like your shirt when they don't, but you get the point, you know,
[00:50:18.700]some substantive sort of,
[00:50:22.750]inappropriate distortion of the truth, that, to my knowledge,
[00:50:28.130]I never saw that in either of my parents to each other, to me,
[00:50:32.120]or to other people that they work with. And so I think those were,
[00:50:37.350]important ethical and family principles that,
[00:50:42.320]that I learned. But yeah, no, he was, he was clearly my role model. I,
[00:50:45.830]I actually never rebelled against my parents. I thought I actually,
[00:50:48.980]for some strange reason when my friends didn't like their appearance,
[00:50:51.860]I always thought mine were pretty smart. Why is that? I don't know,
[00:50:56.600]maybe it's me, but, I, I love my parents deeply.
[00:51:00.830]I still do. And, so yeah, he was my role model.
[00:51:06.170]What do you think in the end, like your father's legacy is?
[00:51:10.760]Like what, what are you, where are you, what are you,
[00:51:13.340]what are you hoping that people take away from your father's story?
[00:51:18.800]Well, I think, in a personal note, I'm hearkened back to which,
[00:51:23.360]which occurred to me spontaneously,
[00:51:25.880]in this discussion is if you think about the,
[00:51:29.450]the end of the movie Saving Private Ryan,
[00:51:31.670]that he was a good man and that he lived a good life.
[00:51:34.430]I think that's personally what he wanted. I think that,
[00:51:38.500]that this particular legacy educating on this topic would definitely
[00:51:43.340]be those, those are probably the two things. And I think,
[00:51:48.800]I think that the two aspects of, of this particular,
[00:51:53.750]event that, that I jotted some notes on that,
[00:51:57.830]I think he would like people to know is that quotation,
[00:52:01.520]this thing close quotation actually happened. It really did happen.
[00:52:05.390]And secondly,
[00:52:09.170]the humankind bears within it, the capacity to do this thing again anywhere,
[00:52:15.500]and that it didn't just happen and go away. And Ethan,
[00:52:20.360]as you said, it's happening now. And, we grew up on, well,
[00:52:25.070]Beth, you lived, next to
[00:52:29.540]the Casargen's, on 99th avenue,
[00:52:32.030]I don't know how much you had a chance to talk with them, but,
[00:52:36.110]the elder lady, grandma, she was still there when you were there.
[00:52:39.380]And I think she was, she grew up and survived the Armenian Holocaust,
[00:52:43.190]if that's the right term, the Armenian genocide,
[00:52:46.250]which the United States just acknowledged a few months ago,
[00:52:50.210]which caused Erdogen and the
[00:52:53.390]the Turkish government's heads to implode, but that really actually happened.
[00:52:58.460]And, they survived that. She lived her whole life in wars.
[00:53:02.690]They survived that then somewhere in there was World War I, World War II,
[00:53:07.280]and she, that was an interesting lady, Beth,
[00:53:10.010]I hope you had a chance to talk to Mrs.
[00:53:12.140]Casargen because she actually had bullets go through her hair from time to
[00:53:16.460]time. But that was,
[00:53:20.000]I think that's that this would clearly be,
[00:53:23.900]where he to know this would be probably his,
[00:53:27.840]proudest achievement is being sure that this story is told and
[00:53:32.760]he would be,
[00:53:34.440]immensely honored that you all are doing this and it's clearly gone well beyond
[00:53:38.820]anything that I thought would ever come of it. And,
[00:53:42.480]so for him,
[00:53:43.950]I'm very grateful that you guys do this and for people that can read it and
[00:53:47.730]learn and be aware and be alert and, realize that,
[00:53:53.190]it isn't necessarily just a one-off. You know, I mean,
[00:53:57.810]it can go from not all that bad to this, and in just a few years.
[00:54:02.400]History-
[00:54:03.960]I think one of the things I've learned Ethan is that history is not a linear
[00:54:07.080]event. You know Lenin taking over
[00:54:11.850]Russia or anything. I mean, in our country right now,
[00:54:15.300]we're in a watershed and whatever your political views are,
[00:54:19.470]It's pretty clear that the history of our country may be radically
[00:54:23.880]changed in a matter of months. And I guess, you know,
[00:54:28.840]the only thing I,
[00:54:29.940]if I were Beth I'd wonder about is how long it's going to be politically
[00:54:33.330]acceptable to even talk about the Holocaust. That could change too.
[00:54:38.100]Som anyway, that's, I digress.
[00:54:41.310]But that's what I think he would want people to know is that they would
[00:54:45.750]realize that it was real and it actually happened. And to be,
[00:54:49.890]aware that, aside from active vigilance,
[00:54:54.270]that this can happen again.

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