Answering the Burning Questions of IEP Team Members and Service Providers

Karen Haase Author

04/13/2022 Added

14 Plays

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Conference 2022

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[00:00:02.520]This is answering the burning questions
[00:00:05.100]of IEP team members and service providers.
[00:00:08.490]Our presenter today is Karen Haase.
[00:00:12.880]So Karen is a partner in the law firm
[00:00:15.010]of KSB School of Law,
[00:00:17.833]where she focuses her practice exclusively on representing
[00:00:21.820]public school districts and related entities.
[00:00:24.870]She holds degrees from Hastings College.
[00:00:27.260]Shout out to Hastings.
[00:00:32.234]Kansas State University,
[00:00:33.810]and the University of Nebraska College of Law.
[00:00:36.910]Prior to attending law school, Karen taught at both
[00:00:39.790]the high school and post secondary level.
[00:00:42.740]Karen has been married to her high school (indistinct).
[00:00:49.330]Karen Haase.
[00:00:50.470]Hey, y'all.
[00:00:51.303](audience cheers)
[00:00:53.584]Thank you for your patience while we got
[00:00:55.340]the technology figured out.
[00:00:57.120]As with everything technological,
[00:00:58.940]it's a blessing and a curse.
[00:01:00.250]So a special shout out to the folks
[00:01:01.940]that are participating on Zoom, welcome.
[00:01:04.660]One of the things that, if you've see me present before,
[00:01:07.560]I'm much more interested in having a conversation
[00:01:09.732]than (indistinct) most flexible, so you all immediately...
[00:01:26.350]Some of these people came in and said,
[00:01:27.887]"I think it's gonna be full, I'll just take a floor seat now
[00:01:31.360]so that other folks can have chairs."
[00:01:32.980]So, God bless you.
[00:01:33.930]And they see my cool shoes up close and personal,
[00:01:37.218](audience laughing)
[00:01:38.051]which, there's privileges to being in the front row.
[00:01:43.240]One quick thing I do need to mention before we jump
[00:01:45.240]into the content, I am an education attorney.
[00:01:48.760]I represent school districts exclusively.
[00:01:51.520]And before I went to law school, I taught.
[00:01:53.800]That means that I come to special ed
[00:01:56.010]with a certain set of biases.
[00:01:57.772]And I really enjoy speaking to mixed groups where we have
[00:02:00.980]school folks and parent side and family side groups as well.
[00:02:05.480]And I want you to know, family side folks,
[00:02:08.612]I work really hard to check my own set of presumptions.
[00:02:12.740]If I sound like I'm on the school's side,
[00:02:15.230]that's 'cause I am.
[00:02:16.260]Do you know what I mean?
[00:02:17.520]But I certainly don't want that you should feel excluded
[00:02:22.980]or not part of this conversation.
[00:02:25.124]And when I put these materials together for mixed groups,
[00:02:27.440]I work really hard, and you'll see several spots,
[00:02:29.770]where I'm like, "Hey, if you're a family member
[00:02:31.390]or a parent side advocate,
[00:02:32.410]here's an idea I think you should have."
[00:02:34.130]So, I'm working hard to be inclusive that way.
[00:02:36.170]And if I inadvertently slip and say,
[00:02:37.917]"We won that case 'cause we are the good guys,"
[00:02:40.000]it's just my professional bias,
[00:02:41.190]and apologies on the front end.
[00:02:44.220]Okay, so here's what I've got.
[00:02:45.760]First off, it is so awesome to see you in person,
[00:02:48.270]and not on Zoom, yes?
[00:02:50.413](audience clapping)
[00:02:55.700]Last year, all those Zoom conferences,
[00:02:57.390]I'm just gonna tell you the truth,
[00:02:58.820]it became a whirlwind blur.
[00:03:01.950]And so I went back and looked at the stuff
[00:03:04.050]that we talked about on the Zoom last year,
[00:03:06.550]and then I tried to kind of make this set of topics
[00:03:09.720]kind of flow from that, and then flow from the questions
[00:03:12.522]that we had on that session.
[00:03:15.000]I'm hoping that they fit together perfectly, but we'll see.
[00:03:18.150]So here's the first thing I wanna talk about, Section 504.
[00:03:20.880]The reason I think that's important to talk about
[00:03:22.780]at an autism conference is because as we become better,
[00:03:26.820]have a better understanding of non-neuro typicality,
[00:03:30.330]the autism spectrum disorder, we're understanding
[00:03:32.320]that the ends of the spectrum are actually wider.
[00:03:35.020]And what that means is, sometimes someone will show up
[00:03:37.550]with a diagnosis from Munroe-Meyer or wherever,
[00:03:40.970]that says ASD, and that is not automatically a golden ticket
[00:03:46.150]into IEP land, right?
[00:03:48.010]And it's perfectly appropriate family side folks
[00:03:51.950]for the school when the family brings a diagnosis
[00:03:54.860]of autism to them to convene the student assistance team
[00:03:58.027]and perhaps the 504 committee and talk about,
[00:04:00.177]"Okay, does this child need an IEP?"
[00:04:01.960]Or, "Is this child substantially limited
[00:04:04.450]in major life activity such that he or she needs a 504?"
[00:04:07.560]So that's why I think special educators
[00:04:09.240]that work exclusively with, or especially with autism,
[00:04:11.627]you should be conversant with some of the 504 stuff.
[00:04:14.100]So, that's where we're gonna start.
[00:04:15.392]We all wanna talk about transition,
[00:04:17.200]'cause in the middle of recovering from a pandemic,
[00:04:19.760]the Unicameral, in its infinite insanity,
[00:04:21.910]also lowered the transition age.
[00:04:27.360]So, I wanna talk about that.
[00:04:28.740]And I wanna talk about some practical strategies
[00:04:31.650]that we found work with working on transition
[00:04:35.680]at an earlier age.
[00:04:37.600]We represent about 190 Nebraska districts,
[00:04:40.300]about another 30 districts in South Dakota.
[00:04:42.800]And as of last Friday, three more districts in Wyoming.
[00:04:46.980]And so, in South Dakota, we've had 14 forever.
[00:04:50.010]And so, we've got some tricks and traps.
[00:04:54.382](indistinct) graduation, it's fourth quarter.
[00:04:57.780]So, those awkward graduation conversations
[00:05:00.070]are probably happening, hopefully have already happened.
[00:05:01.890]But, we'll talk about that.
[00:05:03.670]I wanna talk about meaningful parental participation
[00:05:05.950]and some strategies, if necessary, to place limits
[00:05:08.900]on parental communication.
[00:05:10.690]I think we may only get that far, we'll see.
[00:05:13.090]If we have time (indistinct) education evaluations.
[00:05:17.210]Family side folks, I have some thoughts to share with you
[00:05:19.510]about what IEs really mean.
[00:05:21.240]And school side folks I have some strategies for you
[00:05:23.560]for when folks request (indistinct).
[00:05:26.000]Again, I'm supposed to have this in writing right here.
[00:05:28.600]I think it's actually at the end.
[00:05:31.600]I'm not your individual attorney.
[00:05:34.691]If you're a school district person,
[00:05:35.960]please don't come up to me and tell me
[00:05:37.480]at the end of the session that you've been (indistinct).
[00:05:41.192](audience laughing)
[00:05:42.830]You know what I mean?
[00:05:44.000]I represent your employer, if you're a (indistinct).
[00:05:48.420]Folks, I'm not your lawyer, I'm the school's lawyer.
[00:05:51.240]Okay, let's talk about (indistinct).
[00:06:01.690]This one is hilarious, particularly since my husband
[00:06:04.360]is subbing at Norris today and just texted me,
[00:06:06.947]"Oh my God, what is wrong with sophomores today?"
[00:06:09.160]So, that's super hilarious.
[00:06:12.760]So for those of you that don't know,
[00:06:15.020]I mean, and again I never know...
[00:06:17.410]Forgive me if I'm repeating myself,
[00:06:18.760]or I'm giving you stuff you already know,
[00:06:20.620]but the (indistinct) laws that govern the rights
[00:06:25.920]and services that students with disabilities get.
[00:06:28.470]And that (indistinct) completely stacked.
[00:06:32.150]They're overlapping (indistinct).
[00:06:35.534]504 of the Rehabilitation Act simply says,
[00:06:38.000]that no otherwise qualified individual with a disability
[00:06:41.150]shall solely by reason of his or her disability
[00:06:44.370]be excluded from participation and denied the benefits of,
[00:06:48.190]or be subjected to discrimination under any program
[00:06:51.060]or activity receiving federal financial assistance.
[00:06:54.210]Section 504 says, "Individuals with disabilities
[00:06:58.040]who need assistance in accessing any program of the school,
[00:07:01.750]a parent that need a sign language interpreter
[00:07:04.360]for graduation, a teacher who has an allergy to perfumes
[00:07:09.010]and has a sensitivity to chemicals,"
[00:07:10.660]all of those would also be people protected
[00:07:12.890]under Section 504, and Section 504 also governed students.
[00:07:17.570]Children are eligible for the protections of Section 504
[00:07:20.670]if they have a physical or mental impairment.
[00:07:23.850]Quick footnote, educators in the room,
[00:07:26.850]in order to qualify for Section 504,
[00:07:29.180]you need a physical or mental impairment.
[00:07:31.610]That does not say, mom and dad have to produce
[00:07:34.810]a doctor's note, right?
[00:07:36.860]And so often educators have been kind of trained
[00:07:40.570]on this physical or mental impairment piece.
[00:07:42.740]And so they say things like, "Look, if your kid
[00:07:45.530]has migraines and wants to be excused from school,
[00:07:47.640]we're gonna need a doctor to say she has migraines." Right?
[00:07:50.975]"If you think your kid is on the autism spectrum,
[00:07:53.460]then you should go get that.
[00:07:54.740]I can't diagnose autism."
[00:07:56.110]I mean, you've all heard this in your professional travels.
[00:07:59.570]But if what we have is sufficient data,
[00:08:02.170]from an educational perspective, to believe that the child
[00:08:05.740]has a physical or mental impairment,
[00:08:07.590]we cannot hold the family hostage to go to the doctor
[00:08:10.580]to get the note, right?
[00:08:12.200]By the same token,
[00:08:13.280]and this is what you need to train your Gen Ed teachers on,
[00:08:15.410]'cause this makes me crazy,
[00:08:16.970]they will say at parent teacher conferences,
[00:08:18.917]"Have you ever thought about ADHD?"
[00:08:21.319]"Have you talked to your pediatrician?"
[00:08:23.127]"He might have some sensory issues, do you think?"
[00:08:25.459]You know what I'm saying?
[00:08:26.292]And if a teacher is saying, if an educator is saying
[00:08:29.120]to a family, "Hey, you should go get a doctor's note,
[00:08:32.040]and then we might give you extra stuff."
[00:08:34.060]What you're conceding is that the school district believes
[00:08:36.309]the child might have a physical or mental impairment.
[00:08:39.130]And then we either have to presume that's true
[00:08:40.820]or pay the copay to get the kid to the doctor, right?
[00:08:43.540]So, physical or mental impairment is necessary for 504.
[00:08:47.980]That does not (indistinct).
[00:08:51.580]Okay. So physical or mental impairment...
[00:08:52.980]Oh, sorry.
[00:08:56.110]I treat autism as a mental impairment,
[00:09:00.060]because an adult who's not familiar with special education
[00:09:04.180]can walk into a room and say, "This kid looks normal.
[00:09:06.810]Why is he acting like that?" Right?
[00:09:08.960]I understand in the advocacy community, there's a big fight
[00:09:11.360]about whether it's a physical impairment,
[00:09:12.730]because we're talking about the structure of the brain,
[00:09:15.280]or a mental impairment.
[00:09:16.830]It doesn't really matter.
[00:09:18.220]But in general, I treat autism as a mental impairment.
[00:09:22.670]So, I look at other emotional behavior disorder
[00:09:25.310]kind of cases to guide us.
[00:09:26.620]So, for what that's worth.
[00:09:28.450]Has to substantially limit a major life activity.
[00:09:31.960]This is a school district LEA decision.
[00:09:35.200]A kid that goes (indistinct), she can move to Waverly.
[00:09:42.030]And Waverly can say, "We don't believe that your autism
[00:09:44.600]substantially limits you." Okay?
[00:09:46.630]And the Office for Civil Rights, which is the entity
[00:09:48.920]that enforces these civil rights laws
[00:09:50.790]against school district says, "As long as the school
[00:09:53.640]has followed all the appropriate procedures,
[00:09:56.300]two LEAs can reach different (indistinct).
[00:10:00.040]So when a family enrolls into a 504 plan,
[00:10:01.888](indistinct) you should look at it, you should be the team.
[00:10:05.360]But if you are thinking (indistinct),
[00:10:12.260]change the 504 plan or dismiss (indistinct).
[00:10:15.821](indistinct) one of the child did a major life activity,
[00:10:18.980]just trust me when I say everything's a major life activity.
[00:10:22.690]They amended it to include digestion, sleeping,
[00:10:26.640]eating, having sex.
[00:10:27.870]I'm not kidding you.
[00:10:30.552]For a long time in education, we focus on whether or not
[00:10:34.150]it impacted the child's ability to learn.
[00:10:39.240]Since they made the amendments
[00:10:40.500]to the American Disabilities Act,
[00:10:42.291]everything's a major life activity.
[00:10:44.020]I don't even get hung up on that anymore.
[00:10:47.150]But, the child has to need or believe to be in need
[00:10:49.770]of some kind of service.
[00:10:51.320]It is not necessary to establish an adverse effect
[00:10:53.600]on the kiddo's educational performance.
[00:10:56.010]You can have a child that has an ASD diagnosis,
[00:10:59.650]who either does not need any supports,
[00:11:02.790]or can self sooth.
[00:11:04.192]You know what I mean?
[00:11:05.025]Like, has a fidget or like knows some coping strategies.
[00:11:07.240]That kiddo could have a 504 plan that basically
[00:11:10.650]has no services, but still is technically eligible.
[00:11:16.170]I just told you all this stuff, so I don't know.
[00:11:19.310]We do consider eligibility without mitigating measures,
[00:11:22.530]so you don't consider the effects of things like medication.
[00:11:26.200]We exclude transitory impairments,
[00:11:28.030]which are generally assumed to last six months or less.
[00:11:31.310]Where that comes up in this environment is kiddos
[00:11:34.330]with concussions who are also exhibiting
[00:11:37.260]some atypical cognitive things.
[00:11:40.300]If we believe that this is gonna have an expected duration
[00:11:43.300]of six months or less,
[00:11:44.820]we are allowed to wait and see if it clears.
[00:11:47.190]If a doctor says, "No, we believe this is permanent,"
[00:11:49.650]I would convene a 504 team sooner rather than later.
[00:11:55.350]Yeah.
[00:11:56.720]Major life activity,
[00:11:57.620]I'm gonna kind of hit the high spots here,
[00:11:59.000]'cause I wanna get through as much as we can.
[00:12:01.910]And you have these materials uploaded
[00:12:03.390]onto the system, right?
[00:12:04.610]They did make it up?
[00:12:05.443]Okay, awesome.
[00:12:07.840]I've told you all this.
[00:12:09.300]So one thing that happened with COVID,
[00:12:11.820]and this isn't necessarily autism-specific,
[00:12:14.260]but all of a sudden all these magical disabilities
[00:12:17.100]started appearing, yes?
[00:12:18.920]Your school imposed a mask mandate last year
[00:12:21.570]and 5 million kids came down with asthma, eczema
[00:12:24.500]and upper respiratory distress, right?
[00:12:28.500]So, I think this is a really...
[00:12:30.360]I think there are some really good things
[00:12:32.020]that are gonna come out of COVID.
[00:12:33.480]And our improved familiarity with students
[00:12:36.270]who have health conditions that may not be apparent
[00:12:38.910]to the naked eye or on the daily,
[00:12:41.400]that's a good thing, right?
[00:12:42.720]Because students who have these invisible impairments
[00:12:45.990]are still eligible for the protections of Section 504.
[00:12:49.330]So all of those freaky...
[00:12:51.720]I had one kid that was like a kindergartner,
[00:12:53.580]that mom said masking was gonna aggravate his acne.
[00:12:59.280]But we ran the process, right?
[00:13:00.450]We convened a team, we talked about...
[00:13:02.740]And I think that's what we should be using those lessons
[00:13:05.510]to also respond to other parental requests.
[00:13:09.920]One of the things that I am seeing more and more and more,
[00:13:14.060]are you seeing ASD and ADHD?
[00:13:18.017]ASD and OHI, OSD and...
[00:13:21.440]And so students who are multiply impaired,
[00:13:24.320]under the IDEA, of course, were supposed to identify
[00:13:26.670]what their primary impairment is, and serve that.
[00:13:29.750]But if that kiddo...
[00:13:30.630]So if a kid who's primarily OCD,
[00:13:34.380]obsessive compulsive disorder, but they also have
[00:13:36.610]some sensory issues, and some doctor has also said
[00:13:39.530]possible autism spectrum disorder, right?
[00:13:41.820]But it's not bad, not severe enough that probably
[00:13:44.310]would qualify by itself, I would not write that kid
[00:13:47.070]a 504 and an IEP.
[00:13:49.490]I would write the IEP, and in the present level section,
[00:13:53.000]I would include, "Karen also has a diagnosis
[00:13:56.350]of autism spectrum disorder that manifests primarily
[00:13:59.210]in sensory issues, will..."
[00:14:00.890]And then whatever you're gonna do.
[00:14:02.780]But you don't have to write a full goal
[00:14:04.300]or full accommodations, unless that 504 disability
[00:14:07.700]is severe enough to trigger IDEA protections.
[00:14:10.310]Does that make sense?
[00:14:12.400]We've done this for years with kids with diabetes and asthma
[00:14:15.310]and allergies, only we call them healthcare plans. (laughs)
[00:14:19.800]And what those really are, is 504 plans, right?
[00:14:22.950]So that should be noted in the IEP,
[00:14:25.760]but I don't really like writing two different documents.
[00:14:30.220]Now, a big fight that we've had is whether or not
[00:14:34.340]a parent can say, "I do not like this IEP
[00:14:37.470]that you guys have put together.
[00:14:38.640]I don't want my kid in the resource room.
[00:14:40.420]I don't want him having cool down time.
[00:14:42.840]So, I'm revoking.
[00:14:44.720]But, I'm requesting a Section 504.
[00:14:47.470]And what that means is my kid doesn't have to do homework
[00:14:49.630]and can have a fidget whenever he wants." Right?
[00:14:52.107]And we've said for years that the IDEA is not a buffet.
[00:14:55.270]You don't get to go down and pick a little chocolate pudding
[00:14:57.650]and a little behavior modification, but no sense...
[00:15:00.435]You don't get to pick and choose.
[00:15:02.170]So when a family revokes under the IDEA,
[00:15:05.210]I have said, and I believe there's a strong legal argument
[00:15:08.300]that this is still true,
[00:15:09.770]I have said, "You revoke under the IDEA,
[00:15:11.810]you're revoking under Section 504. We're done here."
[00:15:14.330]Okay?
[00:15:15.240]I defended an OCR claim against the Nebraska district,
[00:15:18.300]where they did exactly that.
[00:15:20.130]And OCR said, "What you should have done,
[00:15:23.900]is convene a 504 team and have the 504 team offer a 504
[00:15:29.770]that looks exactly like the IEP.
[00:15:34.440]I'm not sure that's right, but it wasn't worth it
[00:15:37.620]to the district to go to federal court and fight about it.
[00:15:39.540]Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:15:40.550]So, that is now my best practical advice.
[00:15:43.490]When a family revokes IDEA and says,
[00:15:46.067]"Instead, we'd like a 504."
[00:15:48.470]It's one more meeting, I know.
[00:15:50.130]I know educators you're in meetings all day, every day.
[00:15:52.550]But I think that the smart play,
[00:15:54.560]even though I don't think it's legally required,
[00:15:56.120]and if the superintendent wants to fight,
[00:15:57.713](indistinct) call me, 'cause I would love to (indistinct).
[00:16:00.932](audience laughing)
[00:16:02.980](indistinct), but my youngest is just graduating college,
[00:16:06.440]so I've got a house that I'm building.
[00:16:08.110]I would love that.
[00:16:09.004](audience laughing)
[00:16:11.817]But I honestly think the most practical solution
[00:16:15.530]is to convene a 504 and then cross out IEP
[00:16:19.630]and write 504 plan and say, "Here you go."
[00:16:22.700]And then they can refuse that too, right?
[00:16:24.910]But what I don't want us doing is not serving
[00:16:27.520]the whole pile, right?
[00:16:28.860]I'm really nervous that if we don't offer the full
[00:16:32.230]pan of plea of services that we said the child needed
[00:16:34.710]to receive FAPE under the IDEA, that they will not
[00:16:37.730]be able to receive FAPE under 504.
[00:16:40.180]And then we're in a pickle,
[00:16:41.320]'cause we've gotten kind of backed into a corner.
[00:16:43.010]So, that's my little like bonus tip.
[00:16:48.250]You have a child find obligation under Section 504
[00:16:50.790]just like you do under the IDEA.
[00:16:53.030]This is a classic phone call that I get from your principal
[00:16:56.860]on the daily, "Hey Karen, we have this fifth grader,
[00:17:01.060]we need to expel her.
[00:17:03.087]"Really? What's happening?"
[00:17:04.237]"Everyday, she kicks over the desk, she shouts at people,
[00:17:07.480]she rips up her papers, she flipped off the teacher.
[00:17:10.080]We're sick of it, we're gonna bounce her."
[00:17:12.497]"Okay, great. Does she have an IEP?"
[00:17:16.857]"Should she have an IEP?"
[00:17:19.460]"Yeah."
[00:17:20.293]She's really, really smart.
[00:17:22.560]She's really smart.
[00:17:24.220]Sometimes I say, "Do they have an IEP or a Section 504?"
[00:17:27.307]"No, she doesn't have diabetes." Right? (laughs)
[00:17:29.910](audience laughing)
[00:17:32.188]And in your Gen Ed administrator's defense,
[00:17:34.961]they don't live this world like we do, right?
[00:17:39.300]But anytime you have a child exhibiting atypical behaviors,
[00:17:44.350]whether or not it impairs their ability
[00:17:46.890]to receive academic benefit from the program,
[00:17:49.690]we should be having our child find antenna going off, right?
[00:17:54.659]And the beautiful thing is,
[00:17:56.420]Rule 10 of the Nebraska Department of Ed
[00:17:58.770]requires every single school to have
[00:18:00.790]a student assistance team, right?
[00:18:02.720]And your MTSS, that is your 504 process built
[00:18:06.680]right into the pudding of your policies.
[00:18:09.230]So level one, tier one supports,
[00:18:11.630]I think that kiddo doesn't need a 504.
[00:18:14.239]But if we're starting to talk about tier two
[00:18:16.360]or tier three, I want us at the same time running
[00:18:19.460]that dual track of thinking,
[00:18:21.207]"Is there a physical or mental impairment
[00:18:23.330]that substantially limits a major life activity,
[00:18:25.690]so we can run 504 at the same time?"
[00:18:27.950]What's your first name?
[00:18:29.290]James.
[00:18:30.123]I just wanna quickly say, as an autistic adult,
[00:18:33.960]back when I was in the school system,
[00:18:36.189](indistinct) the need for (indistinct).
[00:18:46.210]Right.
[00:18:47.043]First off, shout out to James for being the bravest one
[00:18:49.090]to ask the first question.
[00:18:50.181](audience cheering)
[00:18:51.919]But James, I think that experience is very typical
[00:18:55.410]when you talk to adults who have come through the system
[00:18:59.300]and now have the self-awareness to step outside themselves
[00:19:02.790]and think about their experiences.
[00:19:04.520]And educators in the room, what this tells me is,
[00:19:07.540]and I know nothing about James,
[00:19:09.040]it's possible that James didn't need an IEP.
[00:19:11.260]What he needed was a 504 with some more,
[00:19:15.330]I don't wanna say smaller, 'cause that's not exactly right,
[00:19:17.500]but accommodations that weren't as significant
[00:19:19.450]as accommodations maybe would be under the IDEA,
[00:19:21.840]so he wouldn't have to act like he was failing math
[00:19:24.010]on purpose to get the assistance he needed, right?
[00:19:27.620]I think James, from the 30 seconds of conversation,
[00:19:31.290]that's exactly what I'm saying here about 504,
[00:19:33.610]that some individuals on the spectrum
[00:19:36.020]clearly are on the spectrum, but may not need an IEP.
[00:19:39.920]Good observation.
[00:19:42.270]We do have to have consent to evaluate under Section 504.
[00:19:45.910]The federal government has those consent forms.
[00:19:48.130]Now, the good news is they're not nearly as involved
[00:19:50.840]as IEP and the Rule 51 documents that you use.
[00:19:54.540]If you guys can't find them on...
[00:19:55.510]I mean, they're posted on our website.
[00:19:58.090]It's a free form from the federal government.
[00:19:59.840]Don't stress that.
[00:20:00.940]But do make sure you get consent to evaluate
[00:20:02.702]as you're working through the MTSS.
[00:20:05.380]So, I would like every one of you to train staff
[00:20:09.400]to take a version of this slide and hand it out to every one
[00:20:13.170]of your Gen Ed teachers, right? (laughs)
[00:20:14.960]Here are the triggers for us to refer a student,
[00:20:18.440]both under the IDEA and under Section 504.
[00:20:23.210]When a parent reports a health condition
[00:20:25.970]or request an accommodation,
[00:20:28.160]we have two choices at this point in time, friends.
[00:20:30.980]We can either refer the child for an evaluation,
[00:20:34.267]or we can give the parents prior written notice, right?
[00:20:37.460]That's it.
[00:20:38.360]We don't say, "Let's give it a few more weeks."
[00:20:40.947]"Let's see if he adjusts to the new classroom." Right?
[00:20:43.990]You can say that, but you need to back that up
[00:20:45.880]with a prior written notice.
[00:20:47.370]So when a parent starts saying, "My kid..."
[00:20:49.369]I tell this story all the time.
[00:20:51.360]My son who's turning 22 on Sunday,
[00:20:55.100]in fourth grade I'm at parent teacher conferences
[00:20:57.400]and I say to the teacher,
[00:20:58.927]"Do you think he has any hearing issues?
[00:21:01.200]'Cause at home, I'll talk to him
[00:21:02.950]and he doesn't even respond.
[00:21:04.880]He doesn't even hear me."
[00:21:06.277]And she's like, "No, he's in fourth grade.
[00:21:07.940]He's a boy. He's ignoring his mom. That's what he does."
[00:21:10.060]But isn't it interesting, as you look back at that now,
[00:21:12.870]is it possible...
[00:21:14.120]I mean, I think she should have documented that
[00:21:16.420]and said, "No concerns on hearing in the school setting.
[00:21:20.610]Mom, if you have at home concerns,
[00:21:21.960]maybe you should see your pediatrician."
[00:21:23.920]But instead very normally she's like,
[00:21:25.797]"No, he's a fourth grade boy."
[00:21:27.150]Which was true, but that was an act of legal significance.
[00:21:30.050]So when a parent reports health condition,
[00:21:32.200]when a parent requests an evaluation,
[00:21:34.500]again, you've got two choices,
[00:21:36.530]prior written notice or do the evaluation.
[00:21:39.400]You don't say, "Let's just wait a little bit longer."
[00:21:42.740]If the students failing to make progress,
[00:21:44.760]that can be a reason to make a referral.
[00:21:47.170]It also can be a reason to continue working
[00:21:49.300]your multi-tiered system of supports,
[00:21:51.340]if you are a school that has a robust MTSS.
[00:21:54.810]If a staff member refers a student
[00:21:56.670]to the student assistance team,
[00:21:58.270]the reason I have an asterisk here is
[00:22:01.950]I think when a staff refers a student to the SAT,
[00:22:04.840]we work the process.
[00:22:05.810]But know this, subsection 16 of Rule 51
[00:22:09.510]is the disciplinary procedures.
[00:22:11.770]And remember manifestation, 10 days out,
[00:22:14.250]all that good stuff that you guys don't wanna deal with
[00:22:16.820]but sometimes have to.
[00:22:18.670]If a staff member has expressed concern (indistinct)
[00:22:23.150]on the evaluation process rolling yet,
[00:22:25.690]that kiddo is entitled to the protections of subsection 16
[00:22:30.110]even if he or she has not verified yet.
[00:22:33.320]So that referral is, I mean, we should be referring.
[00:22:36.030]We should be active in whatever, whatever,
[00:22:38.000]but you need to keep in mind for your school disciplinarian
[00:22:41.350]that that triggers the protections of subsection 16
[00:22:45.670]and that remains until either the kid doesn't (indistinct)
[00:22:55.478]I didn't touch it.
[00:23:01.057]... whether it has that expected duration
[00:23:02.918]of six months or more, I do not consider a Section 504 plan
[00:23:08.240]to be the consolation prize for not verifying
[00:23:11.020]under the IDEA, I don't.
[00:23:13.170]But it is a rational question to ask during the MDT
[00:23:16.900]at the end.
[00:23:17.733]If the child does not verify, or if we dismiss this kiddo
[00:23:20.760]from services, does he or she have a physical
[00:23:27.380]or mental impairment with substantial limits
[00:23:29.020]of major life activity?
[00:23:30.530]Now where I see this happen all the time,
[00:23:32.460]and I actually think it's widely inappropriate,
[00:23:34.520]is when a child doesn't qualify for SLD reading, right?
[00:23:37.690]Just because a kiddo doesn't qualify for SLD reading.
[00:23:40.349]When the school says, "Well, we're gonna give her a 504
[00:23:42.980]just to give her those supports,"
[00:23:44.750]I say, "What's the physical or mental impairment?"
[00:23:48.227]"Well, she doesn't qualify anymore."
[00:23:50.150]Okay, that's not an impairment, right?
[00:23:53.040]But we have a lot of other kids,
[00:23:54.330]especially emotional behavior disturbance kids,
[00:23:56.980]that hit our boxes and the plan worked and it's awesome,
[00:24:00.840]that after we dismiss, those kiddos might have a physical
[00:24:03.810]or mental impairment and they might be wildly appropriate
[00:24:06.530]for Section 504.
[00:24:07.890]So I think it's just a good question to ask (indistinct)
[00:24:10.610]when you're dismissing.
[00:24:13.170]It has been a hell of a year for truancy, hasn't it?
[00:24:17.700]We have county attorneys who have just flat out told us
[00:24:20.720]in our office, "Hey, don't even tell your schools.
[00:24:22.740]Don't even refer, 'cause we're not prosecuting
[00:24:24.260]any truancy this year."
[00:24:25.950]Here's the problem.
[00:24:27.510]I can cite you 15, 20 cases in over five years
[00:24:31.490]where some school district has been found
[00:24:34.120]to have (indistinct) attorney hits 20 absences.
[00:25:00.530]I just think (indistinct).
[00:25:18.584]Does that make sense?
[00:25:20.304](silence)
[00:25:35.380]Yes.
[00:25:37.804](indistinct)
[00:25:44.010]So, what if the kiddo becomes habitually absent
[00:25:46.650]and just stops coming to school in the middle
[00:25:48.450]of your evaluation?
[00:25:51.230]Is this an initial or a triennial?
[00:25:53.816](indistinct)
[00:25:56.290]It was an initial... It was what?
[00:25:57.875]Parent.
[00:25:58.708]Initial, it was a parent request.
[00:25:59.860]Do we have school data supporting the parent request?
[00:26:02.110]I mean, do we think...
[00:26:03.290]Are we testing to placate mom,
[00:26:05.310]or do we think the kiddo needs to be tested too?
[00:26:08.083](indistinct)
[00:26:11.710]Okay. So the reason I say...
[00:26:13.347]And here's the reason I'm asking those questions.
[00:26:15.160]First off, if it's a triennial,
[00:26:17.290]schools are permitted to file due process
[00:26:20.650]to force evaluation of a kid that's already
[00:26:24.270]in the special education program,
[00:26:26.180]if parents are not cooperating with the evaluations,
[00:26:28.510]or not consenting.
[00:26:29.730]So, it's an extreme position.
[00:26:31.990]And I think I've only filed one of those,
[00:26:33.460]and we settled it right away.
[00:26:34.720]But that's not gonna work for you,
[00:26:36.210]because this is an initial.
[00:26:37.740]If it's an initial evaluation,
[00:26:41.240]kid completely stop to show up when we have the test
[00:26:44.820]or whatever, whatever,
[00:26:46.420]I'd give him a few times.
[00:26:47.880]I was raised Catholic, so at least three.
[00:26:50.455](audience laughing)
[00:26:54.480]But after so many times, I would send a letter to the parent
[00:26:57.560]that says something like this, "Dear mom and dad,
[00:27:00.810]the school district is in the process of evaluating Sally.
[00:27:03.430]Sally has not made herself available for these evaluations
[00:27:07.050]on X, Y, Z dates.
[00:27:09.200]We are interpreting your refusal to present Sally
[00:27:12.120]as a refusal of consent.
[00:27:14.430]We therefore consider Sally to be
[00:27:15.880]a typically developing child.
[00:27:17.700]PS: Sally's truant.
[00:27:19.320]We're gonna call the county attorney. Love, school.
[00:27:24.670]But going back to the subsection 16 student discipline stuff
[00:27:28.273]that I was talking about,
[00:27:30.040]while Sally is in the process of getting evaluated,
[00:27:33.810]she is entitled to the discipline protections of Rule 51.
[00:27:38.320]And so we need to send that letter to the parents
[00:27:40.608]both to tie off this question about whether or not
[00:27:43.690]she's gonna to be eligible, but also so that
[00:27:46.050]if she comes back and gets into a fist fight
[00:27:47.880]because her boyfriend dumped her,
[00:27:49.400]we have the disciplinary tools available to us
[00:27:52.030]and we're not trying to do manifestation
[00:27:53.710]with a half done evaluation,
[00:27:55.460]which puts us in the worst possible position.
[00:27:57.760]So, that's what I would do.
[00:27:59.220]Yes, Jean.
[00:28:00.190](indistinct) Sally.
[00:28:04.628](indistinct)
[00:28:16.300]First off, when in doubt, send PWN.
[00:28:19.350]You know what I'm saying?
[00:28:21.137]PWN is like a second glass of wine.
[00:28:22.900]It's never a bad idea.
[00:28:24.327](audience laughing)
[00:28:28.020]I don't think technically that triggers PWN,
[00:28:30.630]because we are not refusing to perform
[00:28:32.647]any educational service.
[00:28:34.830]You see what I'm saying?
[00:28:36.110]What I probably would do, Jean, if this was my ,
[00:28:38.500]is I would ask if I could help write the letter.
[00:28:40.510]And I would try to build in the six PWN components
[00:28:43.490]into the text of the letter,
[00:28:45.300]rather than fill out a PWN form from SRS.
[00:28:49.010]That is my go to strategy these days is to just,
[00:28:52.207]"Coincidentally, here's a link to PTI Nebraska."
[00:28:54.860]You know what I mean?
[00:28:57.490]I don't think technically we have to PWN it.
[00:29:01.980]Hello.
[00:29:03.654](indistinct)
[00:29:13.760]Dr. Mosrone, how could you be so perceptive?
[00:29:17.080]It is very true that, if school is a trigger for Sally,
[00:29:21.440]Sally does not have to come to school to do the evaluation.
[00:29:24.240]That is true.
[00:29:25.073]We could set it up in church basement, library,
[00:29:26.320]community center, whatever.
[00:29:27.670]I am hesitant to do educational testing
[00:29:30.730]in the home environment for a bunch of reasons
[00:29:33.670]that you guys all understand better than I.
[00:29:35.950]But yeah, if school is a trigger for Sally,
[00:29:37.785]so she would show up at the Methodist basement, definitely.
[00:29:43.710]And it's 1000% a great thing to offer.
[00:29:47.130]And if Sally still refuses, then we can put it in
[00:29:49.190]in that letter to show we've been so reasonable
[00:29:51.310]and so accommodating.
[00:29:52.143]So yes, that's a great observation. Great idea.
[00:29:54.765]Yes.
[00:29:55.598](indistinct)
[00:30:01.913]Okay.
[00:30:05.360]So student has...
[00:30:10.360]She was verified as a student of disability
[00:30:12.500]under the IDEA, mom revoked.
[00:30:14.500]Did we offer 504 at that point? Okay.
[00:30:17.400]I might offer a 504 plan.
[00:30:20.980]But there is a whole cadre of kids who have a whole...
[00:30:25.500]I mean, I bet I could sketch out some of mom's behaviors
[00:30:29.220]just from you telling me this much,
[00:30:31.460]'cause this is an arc type, right?
[00:30:33.790]But there comes a point where the kid won't come to school.
[00:30:36.310]Parents have the right under federal law to revoke.
[00:30:38.880]County attorney won't prosecute.
[00:30:40.800]All we do is keep, "We're here.
[00:30:43.200]We're offering.
[00:30:44.200]Come. Please, we're begging you."
[00:30:45.283]I mean, that's what we have to do.
[00:30:47.480]At that point, that's literally all we can do.
[00:30:51.000]Now, if we can get mom to agree, and if we all agree
[00:30:54.300]that it would be the least restrictive environment,
[00:30:56.230]I've started offering Nebraska Online High School
[00:30:58.100]for those kids.
[00:30:59.682]I do not believe that it is good for socially anxious people
[00:31:04.160]to be reinforced in their anxiety by staying home more.
[00:31:07.130]Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:31:08.420]But if there comes a point where we've run
[00:31:10.020]every single process and done everything we can,
[00:31:12.870]if the team can agree that Nebraska Online High School
[00:31:15.280]would be appropriate and parents say,
[00:31:17.767]"Okay, we'll take an out of district."
[00:31:19.640]Functionally, that's an out of district placement, right?
[00:31:22.300]But at least the kid is getting some academics
[00:31:24.210]and we're on the path to get a high school diploma.
[00:31:29.080]I used to try to get that kid a GED,
[00:31:30.900]but you'd have to be 18 to take it now.
[00:31:32.473]And it's way harder than it used to be.
[00:31:35.090]So anyway, that's what I'd do.
[00:31:36.630]Yes.
[00:31:37.463](indistinct)
[00:31:46.213]So, here's my 30 seconds.
[00:31:49.470]Remember, I'm a retired educator, right?
[00:31:52.660]The perception that most attorneys have is that Odysseyware
[00:31:57.350]is a poor substitute for a robust virtual curriculum, right?
[00:32:01.310]But nationally, virtual schools all over the country
[00:32:05.020]have basically the same...
[00:32:07.360]It's synchronous instruction.
[00:32:09.390]You have an opportunity for live interaction.
[00:32:12.490]That would be better somehow academically
[00:32:14.960]than Nebraska Online High School.
[00:32:16.590]So, I'm not saying Odysseyware is never good.
[00:32:19.200]My kid took several classes in Odysseyware,
[00:32:21.130]because he was in both band and choir.
[00:32:22.950]I don't remember.
[00:32:24.070]So I'm not saying it's inherently bad,
[00:32:25.631]but I do personally think that for most students,
[00:32:30.340]the quality of the educational experience
[00:32:32.300]is probably a little bit better
[00:32:33.490]at Nebraska Online High School.
[00:32:34.980]But that's just my bias.
[00:32:37.920]Yeah.
[00:32:39.298](indistinct)
[00:32:43.230]Yes, I'm trying to remember.
[00:32:44.660]If I forget, y'all don't.
[00:32:46.519](indistinct)
[00:32:54.170]What does a 504 plan look like for early childhood,
[00:32:56.940]specifically birth to five?
[00:32:58.660]And I'm in a room with the early childhood experts.
[00:33:08.730]I would say if a kiddo is gonna qualify
[00:33:11.780]for a 504 birth to five,
[00:33:13.370]I think they qualify for an ISD, wouldn't they?
[00:33:16.603](indistinct)
[00:33:20.290]Again, I'm sorry.
[00:33:21.400]Oh, three to five.
[00:33:23.331]So, we're in IEP land now.
[00:33:26.120]Yeah, okay.
[00:33:28.192]So, the short answer is a 504 for any age kiddo
[00:33:32.280]looks like whatever the school puts it together.
[00:33:34.040]There's no form.
[00:33:36.330]There's no blessed approved federal government form.
[00:33:40.750]So if I'm a parent, I would be advocating
[00:33:42.830]for whatever services to be into that 504 plan
[00:33:44.960]that I think my kiddo needs.
[00:33:46.640]And if I'm a school, I like to have a table that says
[00:33:49.860]what's gonna happen, where it's gonna happen
[00:33:51.940]and who's responsible for it happening,
[00:33:54.000]so that we can check those boxes.
[00:33:55.912](indistinct)
[00:34:09.800]And I'll come back to you.
[00:34:11.123]Yes.
[00:34:11.956]Okay. So, what would you do if (indistinct).
[00:34:24.040]What would I do with an out-of-state student
[00:34:25.950]who needs an ED evaluation?
[00:34:27.560]But we can't get the evaluation done,
[00:34:28.787]'cause he keeps getting sent home from being disruptive.
[00:34:31.270]I had this phone call four times yesterday, friends.
[00:34:33.712](audience laughing)
[00:34:35.500]You think I'm joking.
[00:34:36.740]I am telling you from two o'clock in the afternoon
[00:34:39.350]until 5:45 yesterday, I had this phone call.
[00:34:43.472]And I don't have any wonderful answers except to say this.
[00:34:47.380]Number one, the child's behavior...
[00:34:50.720]At this point in time, I believe those send homes
[00:34:53.880]will count towards the 10-day total of a removal
[00:34:57.160]from the child's current educational placement.
[00:34:59.660]So we're gonna have to get manifestation going,
[00:35:01.710]even though we don't yet have the proper verification
[00:35:06.130]under Nebraska criteria, but we should be counting to 10
[00:35:09.730]and doing manifestation at day 10.
[00:35:11.700]Number two, if the kid's behavior is so extreme
[00:35:14.850]that we can't string together any updates
[00:35:16.500]to even evaluate him, I'd be tempted to start this kiddo
[00:35:19.630]maybe with some home bound services and then work,
[00:35:22.060]try to get the evaluation done wherever,
[00:35:24.150]in whatever context we can, and then build back up.
[00:35:27.720]Do you know what I mean?
[00:35:28.720]The LRE requirements require us to start
[00:35:31.600]in the neighborhood school in the Gen Ed classroom,
[00:35:34.280]and then have the child fail until we find
[00:35:36.747]the least restrictive environment.
[00:35:38.810]But in this situation, my argument would be,
[00:35:40.740]start him at home and at least get some stuff going
[00:35:43.360]and then have written into the plan
[00:35:44.650]that we're gonna build up as we get enough data
[00:35:46.940]to support it.
[00:35:48.568]So, I don't have the perfect answer,
[00:35:50.290]'cause that kid is all over the state right now.
[00:35:54.400]And he's not being successful anywhere apparently 'cause...
[00:35:58.870]James, you've been very patient.
[00:35:59.840]So, (indistinct) I wanted to share (indistinct)
[00:36:04.592]with my school from special ed.
[00:36:06.833]I had a lot of classmates that had (indistinct).
[00:36:53.720]Two things.
[00:36:54.553]Number one, I think issues like Crohn's
[00:36:56.510]and other kind of embarrassing physical ailments,
[00:36:59.480]we've gotten much better in 2022 about addressing those
[00:37:03.310]in a socially acceptable manner.
[00:37:05.410]But number two, some of that's just baked into the cake
[00:37:08.000]where the kids all know, "We all know that Karen's home,
[00:37:11.440]'cause she had an asthma attack
[00:37:12.650]because of anxiety last night."
[00:37:14.400]But you Mrs. Teacher are just saying,
[00:37:15.937]"Karen's not here today, 'cause she's out sick."
[00:37:18.420]Some of of that is just...
[00:37:20.360]What? The professional boundaries, so to speak.
[00:37:22.310]You know what I'm saying?
[00:37:23.240]But I don't think that like extra bathroom time
[00:37:27.010]for kids that have issues with toileting...
[00:37:29.020]That has gotten much less weird,
[00:37:30.690]I'm guessing about your age,
[00:37:32.140]but it's gotten much less weird in the last 10 years
[00:37:34.933]than I'm guessing it was when you were in school.
[00:37:37.871](indistinct).
[00:37:39.550]I mean, educators,
[00:37:40.383]you would affirm that, right?
[00:37:42.899]I mean it's just kind of become like, yeah.
[00:37:45.290]Jordan Johnson who works at my office,
[00:37:47.080]and this is not a secret, I'm not revealing anything,
[00:37:49.230]has a colostomy bag.
[00:37:50.350]He has really bad Crohn's.
[00:37:52.007]And (indistinct).
[00:38:17.548](laughs) Theoretically.
[00:38:20.030]Hypothetically at the neighboring district.
[00:38:26.490]Yeah.
[00:38:27.676](indistinct)
[00:38:33.516]I am not giving you legal advice, right?
[00:38:37.239](audience laughing)
[00:38:38.908]Here's the best we can do at that point.
[00:38:41.760]I had a call yesterday, where we're on day like 22.
[00:38:44.420]And I'm like, "Really?"
[00:38:45.620]So, get the team together.
[00:38:48.000]At this point, I believe this probably is a manifestation
[00:38:51.420]and that's why we didn't do manifestation, right?
[00:38:54.170]So I think that tells me
[00:38:55.170]that the kid's placement is inappropriate.
[00:38:57.410]So get the team together,
[00:38:58.460]let's figure out a more restrictive placement.
[00:39:00.560]And again, sometimes that involves...
[00:39:02.460]I'm sorry, Amy, I know you don't like it when I say this.
[00:39:04.140]Sometimes it involves a shortened school day
[00:39:05.630]or a shortened school week for a period of time.
[00:39:07.650]Not forever. I know.
[00:39:09.770]Sometimes it involves a home bound placement
[00:39:11.930]or an online placement for a while.
[00:39:13.420]You know what I mean?
[00:39:14.253]We're never gonna stick a kid in the basement of his house
[00:39:16.380]and never bring him back.
[00:39:17.660]But so, figure out something that we think
[00:39:20.420]might be workable.
[00:39:21.490]And then I would offer Comp Ed right off the top.
[00:39:24.370]If we know we've screwed up,
[00:39:25.790]if we know he's been out for 25 days,
[00:39:28.290]I would say, "Hey, I don't think Johnny qualifies for ESY,
[00:39:31.840]but we'll give you 15 days just to make up for the fact
[00:39:34.560]that he's missed so much school
[00:39:35.560]because of these other issues."
[00:39:37.040]I do not think that is legally sufficient.
[00:39:39.970]The family still could sue you.
[00:39:41.480]Parent advocates in the room,
[00:39:43.530]we know that that is an option available to you.
[00:39:46.240]But if you sue us, at that point in time,
[00:39:48.280]I'm going to immediately offer that same Comp Ed
[00:39:50.950]that the team designed, and then I'm gonna argue
[00:39:53.161]that you don't get attorney's fees,
[00:39:55.000]because we resolve the problem stat.
[00:39:57.270]So, that's my non-legal advice.
[00:40:00.300]If you were to call me with that (indistinct),
[00:40:02.870]typically what I suggest.
[00:40:04.210]If we know (indistinct).
[00:40:19.340]That's just a problem,
[00:40:21.770]and that means we should be working the (indistinct).
[00:40:24.624]And then last thing I'll say, Amy said,
[00:40:26.627]and you you've heard me say this.
[00:40:28.850]I do not advocate for the difficult second grader
[00:40:33.240]to just be sent home at noon, so that everybody can collect
[00:40:35.910]their thoughts every afternoon, right?
[00:40:38.760]I do firmly believe that especially on the spectrum,
[00:40:43.130]there are kids that cannot tolerate all of the simulation
[00:40:46.640]and everything that's going on for a full school day.
[00:40:49.550]And it's our job to build up that tolerance
[00:40:51.630]and help that kiddo to gain social skills
[00:40:53.470]and whatever, whatever.
[00:40:56.155]I think it is wrong to throw that kid in the resource room
[00:40:59.070]all afternoon where he just self stems and has a meltdown,
[00:41:02.370]because we are afraid to shorten his school day, right?
[00:41:04.740]We should do what's right for kids.
[00:41:06.490]And we'll square it with the department when the time comes.
[00:41:09.380]And I actually know that Amy agrees with that. (laughs)
[00:41:13.591](indistinct)
[00:41:30.869]I'ma answer and then we're gonna move on.
[00:41:33.150]So if kid is having chemo,
[00:41:35.360]let's just say kid is having chemo.
[00:41:36.780]She's exhausted by noon, and she goes home every afternoon
[00:41:40.290]and takes a nap.
[00:41:42.110]That's wildly appropriate for her to shorten her school day.
[00:41:45.293]So we are responsible for providing educational services,
[00:41:49.400]not daycare from 8:15 to 3:45.
[00:41:52.540]So if it's appropriate for us to shorten the child's
[00:41:54.680]school day for any physical or mental impairment,
[00:41:57.430]I don't think we necessarily are responsible for the hours
[00:42:00.590]of 1:00 to 3:45.
[00:42:02.290]Now, the team should discuss it.
[00:42:03.940]I have a situation right now where mom and dad both work,
[00:42:06.840]kid cannot function in a full school day.
[00:42:09.020]So, we're working with one of the regions
[00:42:11.380]to provide some supervision and some help.
[00:42:14.070]But I do reject, and family advocates in the room,
[00:42:17.610]this is a point of contention a lot with kids who are
[00:42:19.640]in the juvenile justice system,
[00:42:21.250]'cause DHHS says, "Well, we don't have to worry
[00:42:24.930]about daycare during school hours, 'cause that's school."
[00:42:26.970]That's not necessarily true.
[00:42:29.500]But this all goes back to, this is the I in IEP, right?
[00:42:33.930]The answer can't be, "Well, the troublesome kid
[00:42:36.065]in the elementary school, just shorten his day."
[00:42:37.990]It all has to be worked through carefully
[00:42:40.160]and individualized, and we need data.
[00:42:42.350]For God's sake, if you can't tell me what part of the day
[00:42:45.950]the kid melts down, I can't help you shorten his school day.
[00:42:49.780]Right?
[00:42:50.613]If you can't tell me that Mondays are worse than Tuesdays
[00:42:53.030]and Wednesdays, we can't shorten his week.
[00:42:54.930]I mean, we just need that data to drive that decision.
[00:42:58.600]So, okay.
[00:43:00.900]How many? We're on slide number what?
[00:43:02.610]And I go 'til 2:00, that's...
[00:43:04.950]This is good.
[00:43:05.800]This is just...
[00:43:06.760]I've already told you this stuff.
[00:43:11.550]One thing right here, we cannot require parents
[00:43:15.280]to provide us with medical records.
[00:43:17.680]Parents and parent advocates in the room,
[00:43:19.960]when families won't provide medical records,
[00:43:23.240]I just know from jump that our services are not gonna be
[00:43:26.840]as good, right?
[00:43:28.240]There's no doubt that we are better able to serve a child
[00:43:32.662]if we have the medical records.
[00:43:35.210]And if you got a private therapist or you're doing whatever
[00:43:38.030]with Munroe-Meyer or whatever private consulting firm,
[00:43:41.380]that information is really, really good for your kid
[00:43:44.860]for the school to have.
[00:43:46.270]The school is not trying to play gotcha
[00:43:48.360]to figure out if there's something dirty in those records.
[00:43:50.650]We're not.
[00:43:51.530]I've never had a school say,
[00:43:53.417]"I wish I could see those records,
[00:43:54.560]so I could stick it to mom."
[00:43:55.940]It's always, "If they're having success in therapy,
[00:43:59.410]I wish I knew what they were doing,
[00:44:00.430]so we could replicate that here."
[00:44:02.070]Truly, that's just the truth.
[00:44:05.360]If we determine a medical assessment is necessary,
[00:44:07.530]we pay for that assessment.
[00:44:09.100]I'm to the point where I do suggest that frequently.
[00:44:12.800]If we need to get this kid to a neuropsych,
[00:44:14.720]that's money well spent.
[00:44:16.464]Put the kid in a van, pay a para for the day,
[00:44:19.090]let's go, right?
[00:44:20.635]Now, parents have to consent to that.
[00:44:22.650]But, I am fine with us paying for it.
[00:44:26.725]504 makes Special Ed people crazy,
[00:44:28.870]because there's no real structure to this.
[00:44:30.910]There's no list of mandatory participants
[00:44:32.640]and all that good stuff.
[00:44:34.244]There's no form.
[00:44:36.260]You do need to give parents a notice of parental rights
[00:44:39.020]at the end of the 504 committee meeting.
[00:44:43.275]504 kiddos are entitled to FAPE.
[00:44:46.810]Okay, that gets us to transition.
[00:44:48.330]Thank God we're at least gonna get to transition.
[00:44:58.600]This cartoon takes me to third grade when my parents
[00:45:01.630]were selling their house in Beatrice
[00:45:03.250]and moving to Crete, Nebraska.
[00:45:05.030]And we are doing that frantic clean,
[00:45:07.260]when you're selling your house.
[00:45:08.720]You know what I mean?
[00:45:09.660]And my mom picked up the cushions on the couch
[00:45:12.420]and discovered that I had for perhaps months eaten Oreos
[00:45:17.210]and just licked out the inside and then put the cookies
[00:45:19.691]in the cushion.
[00:45:22.110]She's 80 years old, that still makes her mad.
[00:45:23.930]You tell that story, man, she's zero to 60.
[00:45:27.507]Okay.
[00:45:29.290]We all know that...
[00:45:31.690]Now, this change in the Nebraska statutes is not
[00:45:35.650]in chapter 79, which is the education section
[00:45:38.620]of the statutes, okay?
[00:45:40.590]The Unicameral amended 83-1225 to say that when a student
[00:45:46.020]with a developmental disability reaches 14 years of age,
[00:45:50.180]that child is entitled to receive transition services.
[00:45:53.900]So, this is kind of an...
[00:45:55.063]And I'm not saying it's an unintended change,
[00:45:58.030]but this wasn't like the education committee sat down
[00:46:00.650]with the Nebraska Department of Ed
[00:46:01.950]and had a bunch of meetings, right?
[00:46:03.540]This is a kind of slipped through,
[00:46:05.350]like it was an out of left field situation.
[00:46:07.980]The problem is that the definition of a student
[00:46:10.300]with a developmental disability,
[00:46:11.990]that is not congruent with any of the definitions
[00:46:15.670]under the IDEA, right?
[00:46:17.580]But I don't think there's any doubt that a student
[00:46:20.230]with autism spectrum disorder qualifies as a student
[00:46:23.980]with a developmental disability.
[00:46:25.660]And that gets a little bit tricky,
[00:46:27.210]because we've used developmental...
[00:46:28.560]Developmental delay and ASD,
[00:46:31.160]those two kind of click together.
[00:46:32.920]But developmental disability, sometimes the parents here
[00:46:35.640]is mental, like an IQ...
[00:46:38.090]I don't want to use offensive words,
[00:46:40.610]but an IQ below 80, right?
[00:46:43.570]I've had parents think that we're using code
[00:46:46.340]for saying that their kid has a 72 IQ.
[00:46:48.870]And we're saying, "No, your kid's super smart.
[00:46:50.560]They're on a spectrum, so we gotta do transition early."
[00:46:52.960]So, here's the other thing that I would just remind you all
[00:46:56.690]gently about, we have always had an obligation
[00:47:00.730]to do transition before age 16,
[00:47:03.770]if we thought that the child needed transition services
[00:47:07.220]before that point, right?
[00:47:09.280]So I don't think we should say things like,
[00:47:12.517]"Well, now that... We have to do transition."
[00:47:15.710]'Cause we've always had that obligation at age 14 and 15.
[00:47:20.810]And by presumption, all of you assuredly
[00:47:25.700]thought to yourselves,
[00:47:26.647]"Does this kid need transition before 16?"
[00:47:29.350]And made an affirmative decision about that.
[00:47:31.400]And totally weren't just checking the box
[00:47:33.130]based on the kid's age.
[00:47:35.560]Right.
[00:47:37.520]This is the definition of developmental disability that...
[00:47:40.069]Just trust me when I tell you, my lawyer brain...
[00:47:42.770]I'm quite confident that ASD qualifies.
[00:47:47.410]So, that did not modify Rule 51.
[00:47:50.400]So, Amy and...
[00:47:51.513](indistinct)
[00:47:54.800]Girl, I got you.
[00:47:55.941](audience laughing)
[00:47:59.540]So I was just gonna say that left the department scrambling.
[00:48:02.080]And I think you can tell Amy and I like each other.
[00:48:04.540]We get along, we disagree.
[00:48:05.750]We call each other all the time.
[00:48:07.180]I think that a healthy and robust enforcement presence
[00:48:10.870]from the department is actually good for schools.
[00:48:13.370]And I also think that we don't...
[00:48:15.540]I have my own complaints about things
[00:48:17.930]the Nebraska Department of Education has done
[00:48:19.530]over the years, but I don't think we can complain
[00:48:21.870]to say that Special Ed has not worked really hard
[00:48:24.240]to work with us during COVID, right?
[00:48:26.210]I think you've done a phenomenal job,
[00:48:27.980]and I'll just say that publicly,
[00:48:29.640]in scrambling and getting resources into schools' hands
[00:48:32.460]as fast as you possibly could.
[00:48:34.070]And this is a classic example of the kind of stuff
[00:48:36.152]that it's easy to sit in the teacher's lounge
[00:48:38.160]and yeech about, but you're not thinking about
[00:48:40.100]what they were having to do with the department
[00:48:42.310]to get these changes made.
[00:48:44.410]So anyway, so it did not change Rule 51.
[00:48:46.860]I'm not sure the person that proposed this change
[00:48:48.810]to the statutes even could find Rule 51 if you put all
[00:48:52.260]of the department's rules in a room.
[00:48:55.771]And there's also no enforcement mechanism.
[00:48:58.490]And so in the (indistinct) like a technical assistance
[00:49:01.300]document last year to say, "Hey guys, get on it."
[00:49:04.610]So, they did reopen Rule 51 briefly enough
[00:49:09.650]to go ahead and change that transition obligation.
[00:49:12.510]This became effective on January 4th, 2022.
[00:49:17.100]They did not send out...
[00:49:19.757]It was in the email blast,
[00:49:20.993]but they didn't send out like 6 million notices.
[00:49:24.330]So, it's possible that this slid by
[00:49:26.040]without you guys realizing it.
[00:49:27.240]I don't know.
[00:49:28.073]It was in your Friday emails, but...
[00:49:33.660]Oh, that's right, 'cause you're, you're in dutch
[00:49:35.120]with the governor.
[00:49:35.953]That's right.
[00:49:36.813](audience laughing)
[00:49:38.827]It's a whole 'nother thing.
[00:49:39.660]It's not your fault.
[00:49:43.577]Here's the bottom line,
[00:49:45.105]and see, this is the difference of being
[00:49:47.093]a state enforcement agency and a litigator, right?
[00:49:49.820]I'm the one that's gonna defend the school if you get sued.
[00:49:52.500]Do transition starting at age 14.
[00:49:54.790]Hear me, right?
[00:49:56.270]Amy cannot say that the rule requires it,
[00:49:59.310]but I can tell you that we have a losing argument
[00:50:02.250]on our hands if we are not doing transition
[00:50:05.380]starting at age 14.
[00:50:07.500]We've had a year to get this done.
[00:50:09.230]I felt like 21/22 was kind of our grace period
[00:50:12.820]to get scrambling to get all that extra stuff done.
[00:50:16.520]Autism Speaks, their website has been very clear to parents
[00:50:19.260]that they believe transition services are due in age 14
[00:50:22.230]for students with autism spectrum disorder.
[00:50:24.280]And I think they're right.
[00:50:26.230]Parents in the room or parent side advocates in the room,
[00:50:28.830]if the school is telling you,
[00:50:30.167]"No, we don't owe your kid transition at age 14,"
[00:50:33.290]you should very respectfully,
[00:50:34.710]and I mean that in all sincerity,
[00:50:36.210]I think you should very respectfully say,
[00:50:37.647]"I think you should check
[00:50:38.680]with the school district's attorney."
[00:50:40.190]Because I know all the attorneys that are practicing
[00:50:42.260]in Special Ed in the state, and I think all of us are united
[00:50:45.300]in saying, "We need to start doing transition at age 14."
[00:50:49.010]Okay?
[00:50:51.035]That's the bad news.
[00:50:52.420]Here's the good news,
[00:50:53.550]you are already doing transition at age 14.
[00:50:57.940]We don't have to do a full transition evaluation.
[00:51:01.140]We don't have to do the ASVAB with 14-year-olds, right?
[00:51:05.530]But when you are sliding a kiddo into seventh and eighth
[00:51:08.440]and ninth grade, you are talking as a team
[00:51:11.230]about whether or not this kid is gonna take pre-algebra,
[00:51:14.490]whether or not we're going to try to get some of those
[00:51:16.350]college credit classes in.
[00:51:17.790]You are already doing that, right?
[00:51:19.930]And that's the very beginnings of transition planning.
[00:51:23.510]So some of what you've done...
[00:51:24.387]What some of what you need to do for next year,
[00:51:26.900]I think is relabeling discussions that you've had
[00:51:30.920]and setting those down into the transition section.
[00:51:33.630]Now, that's not adequate for all of the years
[00:51:36.063]that the kiddo's gonna have an IEP with a transition plan.
[00:51:39.150]But for those early years, that certainly is part of
[00:51:41.630]what you're doing to discuss transition.
[00:51:44.300]And hopefully, it's not gonna be as overwhelming
[00:51:46.390]as it initially sounds.
[00:51:47.780]And if this is a child that we know is not going to be doing
[00:51:50.780]post high school education,
[00:51:54.210]if we know that this kiddo is gonna be in the program
[00:51:56.760]until he or she is 21, we are also making...
[00:51:59.350]We are also talking about that when the child is 13, 14, 15.
[00:52:02.885]And if we're not, we should be,
[00:52:03.980]so that mom and dad aren't surprised.
[00:52:05.930]So, that's the good news.
[00:52:09.420]Yeah, so here we go.
[00:52:10.890]I did have it in here that it wasn't approved
[00:52:13.590]by the governor but...
[00:52:16.050]That whole politics stuff makes me mad.
[00:52:19.310]10 minutes to talk about graduation. Great.
[00:52:23.629](Karen laughing)
[00:52:26.110]I'm sorry.
[00:52:27.233]I'm a nerd, but this one also makes me laugh
[00:52:29.820]every single time. (laughs)
[00:52:35.100]Okay.
[00:52:35.933]So, here's the big lesson that I would like everybody
[00:52:38.540]in the room, family side, school side, to take away.
[00:52:41.860]Graduation decisions are not a 12th grade in or out
[00:52:46.130]one-time decision.
[00:52:47.920]And we spend too much time talking about
[00:52:51.220]whether Sally's going to graduate with her class or stay
[00:52:54.180]in the 19 to 21-year-old program.
[00:52:56.570]And there's a million choices between that, right?
[00:52:59.830]I had a great example of a student who had a traumatic
[00:53:03.880]brain injury and the TBI verification happened.
[00:53:07.460]I can't remember if it was at the beginning
[00:53:08.990]of her senior year, or towards the end of her junior year,
[00:53:11.067]but it was super late when we...
[00:53:13.040]Because it was like a fall off horse and... Right?
[00:53:16.380]So, this child needed some life skills.
[00:53:18.420]She needed some functional things to like...
[00:53:21.620]Okay, if you can't remember,
[00:53:22.930]if your memory impairment is permanent,
[00:53:25.390]let's talk about some strategies and...
[00:53:28.135]But the school told the family,
[00:53:29.347]"Well, you can either graduate and not take those services,
[00:53:32.240]or she's gonna have to go to the 19 to 21-year-old program."
[00:53:35.360]Well, this is a girl with whatever, 120 IQ
[00:53:38.510]and who's college-bound and blah, blah, blah.
[00:53:41.000]And so the Special Ed director calls me,
[00:53:43.020]'cause it's summertime and the parents are still ticked off
[00:53:45.370]because the girl graduated.
[00:53:46.820]And the Special Ed director's like, "She's not our problem.
[00:53:48.820]She's got a diploma."
[00:53:50.060]I'm like, "Friend, that is just not true." Right?
[00:53:52.560]So, we brought her back.
[00:53:53.470]We did six to eight weeks I think of an intensive
[00:53:55.866]life skills program.
[00:53:57.970]Go with God, right?
[00:53:59.570]But it's not an in or an out.
[00:54:01.550]And I think we get all really fixated on graduation track
[00:54:06.340]or in school till '21.
[00:54:08.600]And I think we could do so much better than that.
[00:54:10.787]And I just, I believe that firmly.
[00:54:16.810]The good news is for us, we don't have any weird stuff
[00:54:19.990]from the department about...
[00:54:21.830]We have the ability as the IEP team to decide whether or not
[00:54:25.330]the child does make graduation requirements.
[00:54:27.280]That is not true in other states, so be glad.
[00:54:31.986]729 says, "All students who graduate from Nebraska
[00:54:34.670]high schools must hit the Rule 10 requirements,
[00:54:39.276]have to have at least 80% of their credit hours
[00:54:40.690]from the core curriculum."
[00:54:41.970]However, this is the beautiful language.
[00:54:43.947]"These requirements do not apply to students
[00:54:45.940]with disabilities whose IEPs prescribe
[00:54:48.580]a different course of instruction."
[00:54:50.510]In South Dakota, that last sentence is not there.
[00:54:54.500]So the kid who's SLD in math, but brilliant in English,
[00:54:58.030]but she'll never pass geometry,
[00:55:00.010]we cannot just have the team waive those requirements
[00:55:02.090]and give her a diploma.
[00:55:03.370]So it could be worse is what I'm saying, right?
[00:55:05.500]We have a lot more freedom in Nebraska than they do
[00:55:09.090]in other states.
[00:55:11.680]Graduation criteria can be described
[00:55:13.550]in terms of accomplishment of the students transition goals
[00:55:15.960]plus receipt of other services.
[00:55:18.400]That means the decision of when to graduate a student
[00:55:20.520]with disabilities rest with the IEP team.
[00:55:22.900]This is straight out of the department's documents.
[00:55:25.550]Sometimes I think you need to have that,
[00:55:27.040]and have it highlighted, because what parents think
[00:55:29.950]is that the parent has to either say go
[00:55:32.910]or no go on graduation.
[00:55:34.660]And it's a team decision.
[00:55:42.037]I'm trying to think if there's anything here
[00:55:43.060]that we haven't already...
[00:55:43.893]I think we've already talked about all this.
[00:55:44.960]I get excited and forget what all I have here.
[00:55:48.260]Okay.
[00:55:49.210]I love this case because I actually think this happens
[00:55:51.770]more often than not.
[00:55:54.330]So this is a student who's on track to graduate
[00:55:56.900]with a regular diploma, and the transition plan
[00:55:59.260]has always been for this kiddo to go to some kind
[00:56:01.260]of post-secondary school, okay?
[00:56:03.280]And a lot of times, the way we've designed academic supports
[00:56:07.620]is we have a lot of support freshman year,
[00:56:09.740]and then we try to slowly fade those supports out
[00:56:13.300]so that the kid gains an independence
[00:56:15.290]and whatever, whatever, right?
[00:56:16.737]But this kid, as the rigor of the academic coursework
[00:56:20.210]increases, his needs and the supports the school
[00:56:23.020]are providing are actually increasing, not decreasing.
[00:56:26.520]So instead of fading out our supports,
[00:56:28.640]we're having to ramp them up.
[00:56:30.770]And so the end of junior year, the case manager was like,
[00:56:35.367]"Holy cow, if I'm having to meet with this kid three times
[00:56:38.460]a day to find his planner and write the whole..."
[00:56:40.557]You know what I mean?
[00:56:41.390]"He's never gonna be successful in college,
[00:56:44.460]so we're gonna have to change this transition plan
[00:56:46.730]because our game plan is not gonna work."
[00:56:51.340]But this is a school that had diploma life skills, right?
[00:56:57.500]They had two tracks.
[00:56:59.160]And so they hadn't evaluated him for his need
[00:57:01.320]for independent living and life skills and all that stuff,
[00:57:03.970]'cause he was a college-bound kid.
[00:57:06.000]So senior year, they formally assess him
[00:57:07.840]for some independent living.
[00:57:09.390]In December of his senior year, they pack into the...
[00:57:13.840]Does this sound familiar to a case I just told you about?
[00:57:16.066](indistinct) if you think I ran across this case,
[00:57:17.760]maybe doing research for a client?
[00:57:21.250]December IEP puts, now we put in goals for daily living,
[00:57:25.260]learning how to appropriately advocate for himself.
[00:57:27.587]I have a thought on that, remind me when I get done.
[00:57:29.960]Goals about social skills, vocational training.
[00:57:32.597]But the problem was, it was too little too late, right?
[00:57:36.080]Kid had enough credits to graduate.
[00:57:38.550]So on April they say, "You're gonna get your diploma."
[00:57:41.110]Give him his diploma, he graduates in May.
[00:57:43.096]Parents file for due process.
[00:57:45.530]Who wins this case?
[00:57:47.610]Parents, that's right.
[00:57:48.537]The ALJ said, "These transition services
[00:57:50.470]are wildly inadequate."
[00:57:51.980]They were clearly slapped together at the last minute,
[00:57:55.140]provided only for the third quarter of his senior year.
[00:57:59.300]And it was improper to decide to graduate the student
[00:58:01.870]based solely on his completion of the required credits.
[00:58:04.760]Right?
[00:58:05.659]So, again, I don't think there's anything wrong
[00:58:08.610]with saying, "Second semester, senior year,
[00:58:10.810]we're gonna tighten up our daily living skills,
[00:58:13.300]'cause we know that that's an area of need."
[00:58:15.200]But that's different than, "Oh crap.
[00:58:16.780]Let's quick throw some stuff in the plan."
[00:58:18.360]Which is what happened here.
[00:58:20.070]Now, I just am gonna tell you,
[00:58:23.150]I actually really whole-heartedly believe
[00:58:25.740]that individuals with disabilities need
[00:58:27.360]to learn self-advocacy skills.
[00:58:29.160]And if I can point you out, James, I think we have
[00:58:31.680]a great example of someone who's able to articulate
[00:58:34.010]his needs and his experiences.
[00:58:35.750]And so, kudos to you.
[00:58:38.170]But I lots of time see student will learn to advocate
[00:58:41.370]for himself, but then we don't have any explicit instruction
[00:58:43.920]on how the kid's gonna get that done, right?
[00:58:46.290]So, it should be more than an aspirational goal.
[00:58:49.030]We should include some services to back that up, right?
[00:58:51.790]Either whether that's practice or we're gonna go with you
[00:58:54.180]to the community college and meet the disability people,
[00:58:56.420]or whatever it is.
[00:58:58.060]I see way too many IEPs that say,
[00:59:00.527]"Karen will work on self-advocacy."
[00:59:02.830]But then we don't have any and-how action steps
[00:59:05.680]included anywhere, and so it's hard for me to say
[00:59:07.940]whether we did that or not.
[00:59:09.490]Sometimes when I see self advocacy written in the IEP,
[00:59:13.380]and well, I'm in it now.
[00:59:16.117]I don't know if I should say this.
[00:59:17.706]Well, I'm gonna say it.
[00:59:18.938]Sometimes I think that means that the school thinks
[00:59:22.506]the kid should speak up for herself,
[00:59:24.380]because mom's running the show too much in high school.
[00:59:27.770]I'm just gonna say that out loud.
[00:59:29.240]But if that's the case, then we should be working
[00:59:31.170]with the kid to figure out, "How do I manage my relationship
[00:59:34.920]with my parents and also advocate for myself?
[00:59:36.990]Instead of using it as code."
[00:59:38.170]That's all.
[00:59:41.200]So, it has to be data-driven.
[00:59:43.360]I love the 12-week course over the summer.
[00:59:46.610]I just think we are too up and down.
[00:59:50.060]Now, if the student's cadre is graduating and she is not,
[00:59:54.903]does she walk at commencement?
[00:59:56.523]Yes.
[00:59:57.356]Hell, yes.
[00:59:58.189]Why are we still fighting about this?
[00:59:59.960]Give the kid a diploma, away we go, right?
[01:00:02.500]I mean, not a diploma, a little binder.
[01:00:07.360]Graduation cake all around.
[01:00:08.750]I mean, I just don't think this is a fight worth having.
[01:00:11.220]The office for civil rights has repeatedly held
[01:00:13.910]that graduation ceremonies commencement is a socially,
[01:00:19.220]like social norm that we should not refuse students
[01:00:23.610]because of their disabling status.
[01:00:27.530]I know I've got three minutes.
[01:00:28.363]I'll be done, I promise.
[01:00:29.370]Don't forget graduation triggers prior written notice.
[01:00:32.460]Right?
[01:00:33.293]We should be pushing out prior written notice
[01:00:34.670]within the timeframe.
[01:00:36.350]The receipt of a signed, regular diploma
[01:00:38.250]does terminate eligibility.
[01:00:39.810]I swear to you this, I can't make this stuff up.
[01:00:42.180]We had one where the kid was supposed to not get
[01:00:45.640]his diploma, got the folder, right?
[01:00:48.810]By accident, the board secretary had put
[01:00:50.870]a signed diploma in it.
[01:00:53.510]By the end of the following week, mom was like,
[01:00:55.737]"Well, that's it.
[01:00:56.570]I don't want him to have any transition services anyway."
[01:00:58.750]And then we were scrambling,
[01:01:00.250]because we had already issued the diploma.
[01:01:03.060]We ended up settling that,
[01:01:04.010]'cause mom had a really good attorney
[01:01:05.460]that was good to work with.
[01:01:07.850]I would double check, because that diploma going
[01:01:11.480]into kids' hands, that is an act of legal significance.
[01:01:15.550]You guys know this, you have to have an IEP meeting
[01:01:17.470]before graduation to make sure that the goals
[01:01:19.940]of the IEP are achieved.
[01:01:23.140]Again, I don't think we should wait until spring semester
[01:01:25.830]of senior year to talk about graduation.
[01:01:29.410]This is directly from multiple court cases.
[01:01:33.030]If you're gonna make a decision,
[01:01:34.840]the educators are expected to be able to articulate a cogent
[01:01:37.990]and responsive explanation.
[01:01:41.990]Last thing, can parents request that a diploma be rescinded?
[01:01:45.280]That is a big legal issue that Special Ed attorneys
[01:01:47.820]are fighting about right now.
[01:01:49.240]I don't think a hearing officer has the authority
[01:01:51.740]to direct a political subdivision that has its own statutory
[01:01:56.060]and constitutional powers to revoke a diploma.
[01:01:59.500]But what that means is if the family Susan wins,
[01:02:04.250]instead of getting the diploma revoked,
[01:02:06.140]this is one of the few areas where the family
[01:02:07.930]can recover money damages, right?
[01:02:10.470]Because what hearing officers do is they say,
[01:02:13.037]"Well, we can't take your diploma away,
[01:02:15.330]but we're gonna order the school to provide two years
[01:02:17.380]of community college, or a year of remedial coursework."
[01:02:21.690]I heard there's one in Iowa where the kid went
[01:02:24.070]to an adult date treatment program for two years,
[01:02:26.920]and the hearing officer ordered the school to fund that
[01:02:29.180]because he had a diploma,
[01:02:30.700]but they've not done sufficient transition.
[01:02:32.860]So transition is high stakes for a litigator like myself.
[01:02:36.560]So just be wary that we need to sure we're getting it right,
[01:02:40.360]because again, it's one of the few places
[01:02:41.930]where you can actually loose money damages.
[01:02:45.840]Two o'clock, sorry it's the far we've got.
[01:02:47.250]You were awesome.
[01:02:48.200]Thank you so much.
[01:03:00.361]Thank you.

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Answering the Burning Questions of IEP Team Members and Service Providers

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