Show 4 with Michael Casserly

Scott Sturgeon & Shavonna Holman Author

11/06/2021 Added

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In this episode, we learn about Dr. Casserly's entrance into policy and advocacy for urban ed, where to focus on leadership growth, creating a sense of family within the organization he led, and so much more!

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[00:00:01.500]You are listening to the Lead Big Red Podcast
[00:00:03.950]from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
[00:00:06.000]Educational Administration Department
[00:00:08.000]with your hosts, Dr. Shavonna Holman and Dr. Scott Sturgeon.
[00:00:12.410]Welcome to the Lead Big Red Podcast.
[00:00:14.430]I am Scott Sturgeon, Associate Professor of Practice
[00:00:17.020]at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
[00:00:18.610]in the Educational Administration Department.
[00:00:20.430]And my partner is.
[00:00:22.490]Dr. Shavonna Holman, Assistant Professor of Practice
[00:00:25.270]in Educational Administration Department.
[00:00:27.330]Welcome today to the podcast.
[00:00:28.890]And today we have Dr. Michael Casserly.
[00:00:31.210]We are so very pleased and honored
[00:00:32.500]to have him join our podcast today.
[00:00:34.790]Dr. Casserly, welcome so much.
[00:00:36.580]If you can go ahead and just share
[00:00:37.650]just a little bit about yourself before we get started.
[00:00:40.540]Well, thank you very much.
[00:00:42.000]Shavonna and Scott really appreciate it
[00:00:43.950]and delighted to be here.
[00:00:45.900]I'm Mike Casserly, I'm the Executive Director
[00:00:48.530]of the Council of the Great City Schools,
[00:00:50.490]which is a coalition of 78 of the nation's
[00:00:53.880]largest urban public school systems across the country.
[00:00:58.310]I've been with the organization now for 44 years,
[00:01:02.480]nearly 30 of it as Executive Director of the organization.
[00:01:06.210]But before that I spent about 15 years
[00:01:09.388]as both the Director of Research
[00:01:12.210]and the Legislative Director
[00:01:14.880]and before that I worked in schools
[00:01:19.598]and was also a researcher and my background
[00:01:25.670]is mostly in statistics and methodology and the like,
[00:01:30.600]but at this point I've been with the organization
[00:01:36.452]for a good long time
[00:01:38.220]and probably been involved in
[00:01:41.250]and fought most every urban education battle
[00:01:44.350]that the nation is fished out over four plus decades.
[00:01:50.380]Great, great, great.
[00:01:51.330]So yes, you have an amazing history
[00:01:53.530]and we're looking forward to hearing more about that
[00:01:55.080]through our podcasts and questioning today.
[00:01:58.010]So I'm just gonna start off from the beginning.
[00:02:00.670]How did you first become involved
[00:02:02.480]in policy, advocacy, legislation
[00:02:05.690]and fighting for urban school districts?
[00:02:08.440]Well, honestly it was accidental
[00:02:11.010]and I'm not sure when I think back
[00:02:14.180]of all those many years ago
[00:02:16.560]that I necessarily should have been the person
[00:02:20.450]that they hired and like a lot of things in life,
[00:02:27.030]things happen through a little bit of serendipity
[00:02:30.050]and being either in the right place or the wrong place
[00:02:33.520]at the right or wrong time, depending on your perspective.
[00:02:38.280]But I was briefly in between jobs,
[00:02:44.160]heard about this organization.
[00:02:46.490]I was in my twenties, I'm 73 now, by the way,
[00:02:50.750]I was in my twenties,
[00:02:52.890]heard about the Council of the Great City Schools,
[00:02:55.800]went by to see them and talk them into a position,
[00:02:59.710]doing research as a junior staff member
[00:03:06.720]for the organization.
[00:03:07.900]And it just so happened that the organization at the time
[00:03:12.330]was not in very good shape either politically,
[00:03:16.170]or in terms of the membership
[00:03:17.440]or just the organization itself
[00:03:20.060]was just not doing very well.
[00:03:21.650]And the boards of directors had themselves
[00:03:24.490]at an emergency meeting
[00:03:26.420]and somebody asked the question,
[00:03:29.910]who is going to be doing our work up on Capitol Hill
[00:03:33.527]now that our current legislative person
[00:03:38.420]had left to take another position.
[00:03:42.807]And my boss at the time turned around to me
[00:03:48.270]and said, "He is,"
[00:03:49.810]and I had never been to Capitol Hill before.
[00:03:54.930]I did not know the House side, from the Senate side,
[00:03:57.801]I had never read a piece of federal legislation.
[00:04:02.210]Did not know what a education policy was at the time.
[00:04:06.860]Again, my background was mostly in research
[00:04:09.780]and methodology and statistics,
[00:04:13.390]and I was named kind of on the spot,
[00:04:18.630]the legislative person for the organization.
[00:04:22.270]And the next morning by a boss came in to me
[00:04:26.950]and handed me a compilation
[00:04:30.200]of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act
[00:04:33.480]said, "Read this, you're gonna be testifying
[00:04:37.830]before the House Education and Labor Committee
[00:04:40.029]a week from today and we have a technical problem
[00:04:47.618]that somebody like you ought to be able to solve.
[00:04:53.170]And that is a technical glitch
[00:04:56.570]in the Title I Formula that was actually causing aid
[00:05:01.780]to urban school districts across the country
[00:05:04.170]to decrease over time.
[00:05:07.562]And his charge to me was figuring out why that was happening
[00:05:12.860]and propose a way to fix it and there we have it.
[00:05:22.640]So a week later I testified before
[00:05:26.860]the House Education Labor Committee
[00:05:28.580]and I was too inexperienced and stupid to be scared
[00:05:34.310]and honestly, I probably should have been,
[00:05:37.430]but eventually I did figure out what the problem was
[00:05:41.330]with the formula and ran the committee
[00:05:46.446]through what the issue was and how to fix it.
[00:05:49.460]And they said, "Terrific."
[00:05:52.310]And then I thought to myself,
[00:05:53.940]and I remember this really quite distinctly,
[00:05:56.350]I was sitting at the witness table
[00:05:59.712]in the Education Labor Committee room and said to myself,
[00:06:04.757]"You know what, I can do this, I can do this."
[00:06:08.784]So, and the rest is history.
[00:06:13.030]That is an incredible story.
[00:06:15.140]And I can't, there's no way that I would be able
[00:06:18.540]to just be dropped and dumped right in front
[00:06:20.650]of (laughs) everybody at Capitol Hill,
[00:06:23.900]because I was scared to death
[00:06:25.730]just going to testify in front of our state Senators.
[00:06:29.735](laughs) Wow, that's amazing.
[00:06:33.460]Yeah, it was a challenge to be sure.
[00:06:38.650]And I remember sitting on my living room floor
[00:06:42.490]for days on end all night long,
[00:06:46.740]trying to figure out why in the world
[00:06:48.730]this formula was creating the effects that it was.
[00:06:51.990]But because I had a background in statistics,
[00:06:55.203]I was able to figure it out
[00:06:59.120]and then somebody taught me later
[00:07:02.150]that that's actually what policy was all about
[00:07:05.210]was figuring these things out and then applying them
[00:07:08.970]to set of decisions that legislatures had to make
[00:07:16.927]and there we have it,
[00:07:20.040]so I've been doing that for a long time.
[00:07:21.523]Wow, thank you, thank you. That is so fascinating.
[00:07:26.850]Kind of maybe piggybacking a little bit
[00:07:29.840]on your research mind,
[00:07:32.870]when you think about like the work
[00:07:34.290]that organizations like Wallace Foundation are doing
[00:07:38.222]and really it seems like it's been this way
[00:07:40.640]for maybe since the No Child Left Behind,
[00:07:45.230]kind of took over the education landscape.
[00:07:47.500]But right now, everything is on
[00:07:49.340]the principals is the lever of school change
[00:07:53.110]is where research seems to be talking most about
[00:07:55.843]where energy seems to be,
[00:07:57.490]where the books are being written about
[00:07:58.730]is improving the principalship,
[00:08:00.580]improving the job that they are doing
[00:08:02.140]so that they improve outcomes.
[00:08:04.370]Is that the right area of focus?
[00:08:06.370]Is that the right lever,
[00:08:07.620]should school districts be focused
[00:08:09.160]on building level leadership
[00:08:12.028]as opposed to say a principalship
[00:08:14.500]or a central office structure or superintendency?
[00:08:19.840]Well, I don't actually think
[00:08:21.373]this is an either/or question.
[00:08:23.218]I know that the Wallace Foundation
[00:08:24.826]is very much focused on principals and principal supervisors
[00:08:30.140]and leadership at a building level
[00:08:32.020]and the work that they've done,
[00:08:34.661]including our contributions to it.
[00:08:38.870]I think it's been an important,
[00:08:40.780]I think it's underscored the effect
[00:08:44.880]that effective building leaders have
[00:08:47.640]on the overall academic attainment of kids
[00:08:50.990]and the outcomes that they achieve.
[00:08:54.640]But I don't think that that's the only place
[00:08:56.640]where leadership is important.
[00:08:59.090]I think it's important at the board level
[00:09:02.713]it's important at the superintendent level,
[00:09:05.711]and it's important at the line officer level as well,
[00:09:11.130]but it is a pretty consistent effect that principals have.
[00:09:18.517]And the research is really quite good on this
[00:09:20.990]in specifying that often the difference
[00:09:24.390]between a highly effective school and one that is not
[00:09:28.520]rests in the quality of the leadership of the principal
[00:09:32.699]and the assistant principal to some extent,
[00:09:37.400]but mostly the principal.
[00:09:40.080]And I have to say that even at the district level,
[00:09:43.580]there have been districts that have seen overall improvement
[00:09:48.800]in their kind of system-wide attainment
[00:09:54.630]by focusing on building level leadership.
[00:09:58.210]Chicago is a really good example of this,
[00:10:00.880]where over the last 10 years or so,
[00:10:05.700]they've really spent a lot of effort at the systems level,
[00:10:10.500]improving leadership at the school level.
[00:10:13.694]And they put into place a broad kind of systemic framework
[00:10:21.300]that they use their principals to work around and work from,
[00:10:25.670]and then provide a lot of professional development
[00:10:28.330]to both the principals and the principal supervisors.
[00:10:31.420]And the combination of things
[00:10:33.680]really has moved the needle for a school district like that.
[00:10:37.860]But I think what's really interesting
[00:10:42.190]for big city school districts
[00:10:44.230]is not only principal leadership and building leadership,
[00:10:50.740]but how the building leadership is defined and crafted
[00:10:56.420]in a way that is consistent
[00:10:58.300]with a system's overall goals and priorities.
[00:11:02.660]So the system really has to have a framework in place
[00:11:08.185]that good principal leadership can fit inside of.
[00:11:13.360]And that sometimes good principals,
[00:11:17.390]if they're out on their own,
[00:11:19.930]sometimes they do a great work
[00:11:23.050]and provide an enormous amount of benefit,
[00:11:29.480]but sometimes they don't.
[00:11:31.890]And some of that really depends on whether the system itself
[00:11:35.300]has defined what effectiveness
[00:11:38.510]at the building level will actually mean.
[00:11:41.730]So, but this is one where I don't think
[00:11:45.040]it's an either/or question that is Wallace or anybody else
[00:11:51.350]who is leaning into building leadership.
[00:11:55.550]Do they have that right, yes,
[00:11:57.079]but it's not the full picture
[00:12:00.520]and the full picture involves leadership
[00:12:04.410]at a variety of different levels in the system.
[00:12:07.240]Yeah, I agree, thank you.
[00:12:11.790]Dr. Casserly as a leader and champion
[00:12:14.070]for urban youth, families, schools, and districts,
[00:12:17.380]you have been highlighted by USA Today
[00:12:19.450]as a crusader for city school children,
[00:12:22.830]not many at all of her earned such a title.
[00:12:25.500]What does that mean to you?
[00:12:32.760]Gee, nobody's ever asked me this question before,
[00:12:35.269]and I guess when USA Today tagged me with that line,
[00:12:43.020]I didn't think much of it one way or the other,
[00:12:46.506]but I guess over the years,
[00:12:48.920]it's come to define a lot of what it is I tried to do.
[00:12:52.890]And it also was somewhat emblematic of the passion
[00:13:00.990]I tried to bring for the issues to the table.
[00:13:05.920]So I think one of the things
[00:13:08.650]that's really been interesting for me in this journey
[00:13:13.240]was how to be a crusader, an advocate for something
[00:13:20.060]that was important as urban public education,
[00:13:24.150]while at the same time, being able to tell the truth
[00:13:29.570]about what it is we succeeded at
[00:13:32.900]and things where we were not succeeding.
[00:13:35.815]And there's plenty of things to both praise
[00:13:39.540]in urban public education
[00:13:40.767]and to criticize in urban public education.
[00:13:45.000]But the issue was how to marry those two things
[00:13:49.380]in a way that both pushed the field forward
[00:13:53.530]and called it out when it needed to be called out
[00:13:56.770]for its shortcomings.
[00:14:00.390]And I don't know if that really falls
[00:14:05.090]under the definition of a crusader or not,
[00:14:07.620]but ultimately that's two things that I tried to marry
[00:14:12.760]as I was moving forward in this particular leadership role.
[00:14:19.270]And I can understand that because it's not easy at all,
[00:14:21.946]for most people to share areas
[00:14:25.408]that they need to improve upon, right,
[00:14:27.260]or areas that they're just not strong in at all.
[00:14:30.330]And so, yes, thank you for being honest and sharing that.
[00:14:34.410]Yeah, honestly, when I got named to this position,
[00:14:41.354]it was pretty clear to me that I could be a leader
[00:14:47.320]in kind of the traditional sense,
[00:14:50.260]that one sees with educational organizations
[00:14:54.090]in Washington, D.C.
[00:14:55.490]and national educational organizations broadly,
[00:14:59.758]and that usually means playing a representative role
[00:15:04.960]or a defensive role
[00:15:06.930]in the sense that you're defending whoever it is
[00:15:11.110]you are representing and what your main job is
[00:15:14.960]is to represent your constituents,
[00:15:20.050]sometimes no questions asked.
[00:15:22.240]And I remember saying
[00:15:24.070]to the executive committee of the council,
[00:15:28.920]when they hired me,
[00:15:30.510]was that if that's what they wanted from me,
[00:15:34.680]it was probably better that they picked somebody else,
[00:15:38.010]because well I was gonna represent and advocate for
[00:15:43.490]and argue for and defend.
[00:15:45.883]I was also gonna try to push the field to improve
[00:15:49.083]because the public really needed to see
[00:15:52.560]urban public education get better.
[00:15:55.214]And what I tried to do then
[00:15:58.100]was to craft an organization that would do some of both,
[00:16:02.630]that is play a defensive and representative role,
[00:16:08.170]but also play a role that was more offensive
[00:16:12.320]and was built to improve the systems on behalf of the kids.
[00:16:19.660]Excellent, thank you.
[00:16:21.070]Yeah, I'm gonna kind of piggyback on that one.
[00:16:23.820]So when you are advocating at a national level
[00:16:26.370]and representing such a large group,
[00:16:29.590]what is it that helps you
[00:16:32.980]from that offensive perspective, right.
[00:16:35.610]Going to the people that need to hear the stories,
[00:16:39.610]what is it that you wanna hear or be able to share
[00:16:42.810]from your member districts
[00:16:43.950]about the types of things that are going on?
[00:16:49.180]That's a good question.
[00:16:51.485]I'm not sure that I've really thought about this deeply,
[00:16:55.210]but what I try to do is to listen carefully
[00:16:59.440]to the members themselves,
[00:17:02.280]hear them talk about what their challenges are,
[00:17:05.410]what their successes are,
[00:17:09.010]have them reflect on why the work that they do
[00:17:14.130]seems to be effective and not.
[00:17:16.923]And I actually spent a lot of time listening to my own folks
[00:17:22.660]about what their challenges are
[00:17:25.930]and what is vexing them on a day in and day out basis.
[00:17:31.730]But I've never thought that that was actually enough.
[00:17:36.540]So what I tried to do is listen to a lot of people
[00:17:40.310]on the outside who are both casual observers of the field,
[00:17:45.410]but also listened to people
[00:17:46.820]who are skeptics and critics of us,
[00:17:51.270]and also spent a lot of time with the data
[00:17:54.320]trying to figure out where is it
[00:17:57.320]that our strong points are,
[00:17:59.130]where is it that we're having shortcomings
[00:18:01.780]and kind of recurring and chronic challenges.
[00:18:05.120]And then I tried to marry all of those things together
[00:18:08.900]to form a more complete picture of how it is we're doing,
[00:18:13.410]and then try to translate that back to the public
[00:18:18.400]in a way that is forward-looking but balanced.
[00:18:23.350]Great.
[00:18:26.040]Dr. Casserly, so you mentioned earlier
[00:18:27.890]that you've been the Executive Director for Council
[00:18:31.220]for almost 30 years and you are now believed
[00:18:36.850]to be one of the longest serving chiefs
[00:18:40.230]among the major national education membership organizations.
[00:18:43.710]In the world of leadership, this is super extensive
[00:18:46.640]and says a lot about what you have done
[00:18:48.520]and how you have led, what skills and strengths of yours
[00:18:52.150]can you attribute to your longevity
[00:18:54.280]in this particular position?
[00:18:55.930]And why do you think the Council and its membership
[00:18:58.770]has loved working under your leadership for so long?
[00:19:05.060]Yeah, I don't know the answer
[00:19:07.000]to the last part of that question,
[00:19:08.480]because it seems to me that I've done plenty of things
[00:19:11.540]to get myself fired over the years,
[00:19:13.918](all laugh)
[00:19:15.053]but so far it hasn't happened.
[00:19:25.870]I think I point to a couple of things
[00:19:29.240]and I don't get asked this question very often,
[00:19:32.520]so I'm not sure that I've got a convincing answer for it,
[00:19:38.100]but I have based on all of the conversations
[00:19:42.767]that I talked about earlier in the data that I look at
[00:19:46.310]and listening to both champions of education
[00:19:52.490]and skeptics of education,
[00:19:54.769]I try as best I can to take all of that information
[00:20:02.160]and craft from it a direction
[00:20:06.400]that I think urban education needs to go in,
[00:20:10.510]and then take time to not only talk with my staff about it,
[00:20:17.690]but also talk to the membership about whether or not
[00:20:20.980]we are pursuing the right set of initiatives,
[00:20:24.810]whether or not we are defining urban education
[00:20:27.930]in a way that both reflects well
[00:20:31.850]on the work that we are trying to do,
[00:20:34.930]but also challenges folks
[00:20:38.598]in a way that I know is important.
[00:20:43.400]So, I think just mixing all of those things together
[00:20:51.780]and then trying not to bring a personal ego to the issues.
[00:20:59.150]And maybe it's because I work in Washington DC,
[00:21:06.530]which is kind of the center of the universe
[00:21:12.970]in terms of people's egos and it's also a place
[00:21:16.350]that is often kind of an evidence-free zone
[00:21:20.048]in lots of respects, so the political space
[00:21:25.330]is often taken up by people's egos
[00:21:28.670]and not necessarily the facts at hand.
[00:21:36.380]So I think in a lot of ways, what has served me well
[00:21:43.220]has been keeping a sense of ego at bay
[00:21:49.107]and then applying the best combination
[00:21:53.920]of facts and information
[00:21:57.290]that I can probably possibly bring to the table
[00:22:01.440]and found that it, at least in this town,
[00:22:05.140]was kind of a refreshing departure
[00:22:07.296]from what most policymakers
[00:22:10.346]in Washington, D.C. actually find.
[00:22:15.350]So I guess on top of that,
[00:22:24.200]being clear about what it was that I was trying to do,
[00:22:29.190]and also being clear in what I mentioned before,
[00:22:33.307]and that is not trying to just represent and defend,
[00:22:37.630]or be an apologist for bad behavior when I saw it,
[00:22:43.983]but actually taking the offensive
[00:22:48.590]and trying to create a direction
[00:22:52.700]to define what the future should be for urban education,
[00:22:57.260]and then figuring out ways to take them there,
[00:23:03.461]was, I guess, all of those things mixed together.
[00:23:07.130]And honestly, I've been blessed in lots of ways.
[00:23:15.870]I think my governing board
[00:23:22.250]has been particularly good at saying
[00:23:26.960]that look as long as you are fair
[00:23:31.600]and can back up what it is you are espousing,
[00:23:35.492]and you can take us to places where we are realizing success
[00:23:40.400]in ways that we had not realized success before
[00:23:43.940]that we'll back you to the hilt.
[00:23:46.380]And that ended up being important in times and in places
[00:23:53.810]where the ride got pretty bumpy.
[00:23:56.989]And as long as they knew that I was being fair and balanced,
[00:24:05.720]and I tried to make sure
[00:24:08.500]that they knew that I had their interests in mind
[00:24:13.380]and only their interests in mind,
[00:24:15.760]then I think it's apparently earned the trust and respect
[00:24:22.253]of the membership.
[00:24:23.770]And from there, I was able to take the organization
[00:24:28.690]places it might not have otherwise gone.
[00:24:32.150]Well, this would definitely explain
[00:24:33.540]why you have been in this role for so very long.
[00:24:36.530]I mean, you're trustworthy, you listen,
[00:24:39.040]you talk and discuss, you collaborate, you're a team,
[00:24:42.560]you're a teammate and it's not a top down sort of leadership
[00:24:47.780]from what I know of you
[00:24:49.188]and from what you have demonstrated through your work,
[00:24:52.710]most definitely, it's more of a connectedness
[00:24:56.850]and alignment between you and all those people
[00:24:59.560]that you work with and work for.
[00:25:02.120]And we certainly appreciate everything that you have done.
[00:25:05.660]So yes, you sound like the epitome of a perfect leader
[00:25:11.480]in just what you're describing
[00:25:12.770]and you're so very humbled about what you've done.
[00:25:15.780]And I'm sure that if we were to ask
[00:25:19.050]any of the member districts, any of the exec board
[00:25:22.630]and staff member at the Council,
[00:25:24.450]I'm sure that they would all say the same thing.
[00:25:27.670]Well, thank you for that.
[00:25:29.535]One thing that I think worked really well
[00:25:37.051]for the organization and the membership
[00:25:41.840]was what we tried to do after I took the position,
[00:25:51.080]was to create a sense of family
[00:25:55.190]and shared identity and ownership
[00:25:59.698]for the work so that we tried to create mechanisms
[00:26:09.130]by which people could help each other get better.
[00:26:13.120]After I decided that what I tried to do
[00:26:17.030]with the organization is to rebuild its architecture
[00:26:22.900]in a way that would be about the improvement
[00:26:27.860]of urban education on behalf of its kids.
[00:26:31.270]Then part of my responsibility was to try to figure out ways
[00:26:35.300]in which I could do that,
[00:26:36.830]but also to do it in a way that created participation
[00:26:41.843]and ownership and buy-in by everybody.
[00:26:46.260]So if one was in a jam
[00:26:51.270]or a school district had a particular challenge
[00:26:54.420]that it was facing,
[00:26:55.880]if it was easy enough to pick up the phone
[00:27:00.740]across the membership and say,
[00:27:03.517]"One of your brethren is in trouble and they need help,
[00:27:08.150]can you work with us to help us solve this problem?
[00:27:14.510]And we did enough of that in the early years,
[00:27:18.637]and then continued it over time,
[00:27:21.760]where people felt a stake in each other's success.
[00:27:26.263]And so if Omaha had a problem,
[00:27:31.970]we could call Denver and Milwaukee and Atlanta
[00:27:35.550]and say, "Omaha needs some help here.
[00:27:39.593]Can we go in and help them out?"
[00:27:43.410]And then work with Omaha and Atlanta and Denver
[00:27:46.000]and everybody else to try to solve a set of problems.
[00:27:50.850]And it worked not only for the district needing help,
[00:27:56.250]it worked for the people doing the helping,
[00:28:01.020]because everybody learned a lot along the way,
[00:28:06.590]got to know each other a lot better
[00:28:08.910]and created expertise and capacity
[00:28:13.180]in a way that helped strengthen the overall alliance
[00:28:17.852]on behalf of urban education at large.
[00:28:22.140]So I think all of it kind of helped create
[00:28:26.438]an identity for the organization
[00:28:30.100]and amongst urban school systems
[00:28:32.810]that was able to carry the ball forward
[00:28:35.690]in a way that might not have otherwise been the case.
[00:28:39.350]Absolutely.
[00:28:41.690]Wow, that might be the favorite answer to any question
[00:28:45.060]that I've heard so far since we started recording these.
[00:28:48.650]So thank you, that was a recipe for leadership.
[00:28:51.970]There was a recipe in there for boards
[00:28:54.130]and the relationship between the leader and the board.
[00:28:57.880]Gosh, so much in there,
[00:29:00.540]and I'm gonna stay on leadership just a little bit.
[00:29:02.880]And that is when we're talking about educational leadership
[00:29:06.270]and I'll let you pick what levels that might live in,
[00:29:10.810]but where's the greatest opportunity right now
[00:29:13.950]in educational leadership,
[00:29:15.133]what's that thing that we should be going after
[00:29:18.500]as educational leaders?
[00:29:20.970]Well, a little bit like I answered before,
[00:29:25.990]and that is, there are leadership opportunities
[00:29:29.400]at all levels of the organization, including teacher leaders
[00:29:34.740]for that matter and lots of opportunities there to be sure.
[00:29:40.760]But one of the things that we've tried to bear down on
[00:29:45.540]in the recent past, was the leadership at the board level.
[00:29:50.450]And a lot of times we've seen people get on school boards
[00:29:59.650]for all the wrong reasons and then not be clear
[00:30:05.440]about what their responsibilities were,
[00:30:07.760]to the organization that they were now governing
[00:30:10.571]or what actually good leadership looked like.
[00:30:15.300]So I continue to think that leadership at the board level
[00:30:21.050]is one of the frontiers
[00:30:24.800]that continues to need to be strengthened
[00:30:27.470]in ways that too many people
[00:30:31.610]have not devoted a whole lot of attention to in the past.
[00:30:37.240]Yeah, I've seen both sides of that.
[00:30:39.650]I've seen strong leadership, like my co-host here
[00:30:42.860]and seen some-
[00:30:43.987]She's a great one.
[00:30:45.560]Yeah, and seen some times when it's been a challenge
[00:30:48.328]at the board level, so yeah.
[00:30:51.130]Yep and Omaha over the years has seen both good and bad
[00:30:56.500]and circumstances where it's leadership failed it.
[00:31:02.150]And then other occasions
[00:31:03.840]where you took very courageous positions
[00:31:08.128]and the kids were better off for it.
[00:31:12.380]And Omaha, wasn't really different from a lot of big cities,
[00:31:18.984]urban boards all across the country,
[00:31:23.110]work in a context that has really unlike anything else
[00:31:27.937]that elected officials really ever have to deal with.
[00:31:32.900]I mean, it's pretty unusual that any other institution
[00:31:42.310]would be faced with the kind of public pressures
[00:31:47.278]that urban education is faced with
[00:31:50.780]where your constituency is often very split
[00:31:55.970]over issues of race and income and language
[00:31:59.650]and religion and culture,
[00:32:02.036]and everybody fighting over the one thing
[00:32:05.220]that they care about the most, that is their kids.
[00:32:08.600]And you put all of that together,
[00:32:10.530]and it is a stew that is unlike anything else
[00:32:15.840]that public officials anywhere in the country,
[00:32:18.940]at any level really have to deal with.
[00:32:21.351]And it is immediate and hands-on,
[00:32:25.060]and in your face.
[00:32:27.270]And it's one of those circumstances
[00:32:36.920]where board members are right in front of the people
[00:32:42.190]that have a very obedient concern and are very energized
[00:32:51.860]over the issues that their individual children are facing.
[00:32:59.470]And it's a pressure like you don't see in Washington
[00:33:05.200]or in any other political settings.
[00:33:08.020]So, my hat's off to the boards
[00:33:12.520]and what they have to deal with, at the same time,
[00:33:15.790]it also puts an additional responsibility and weight
[00:33:21.871]on boards just because the issues are so critical
[00:33:25.430]and so immediate
[00:33:26.560]and involve such a precious cargo as people's kids.
[00:33:36.720]Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:40.350]Dr. Casserly in your many years of leadership and advocacy
[00:33:43.610]for urban school districts,
[00:33:46.050]what has been one of your biggest accomplishments
[00:33:48.990]and one of your most challenging dilemmas or issues?
[00:33:52.620]I know you have tons of experience in this,
[00:33:56.410]but can you think of something off the top of your head
[00:33:58.817]]that you're most proud of
[00:34:00.740]or something that was most difficult?
[00:34:06.900]Yes, actually, and they're both the same thing.
[00:34:13.260]That is the things that I'm the proudest of
[00:34:16.950]is the one thing that has been the hardest to accomplish
[00:34:20.020]and that is over the years, student achievement,
[00:34:26.610]student outcomes, student attainment,
[00:34:30.320]has actually gotten better in the big cities
[00:34:34.000]across the country,
[00:34:37.930]but it's also been the hardest thing to do,
[00:34:41.850]but it did not happen by accident.
[00:34:45.258]I I'm proudest of the fact that we have gotten better
[00:34:49.070]as education institutions at educating.
[00:34:52.397]And you can see the evidence of that
[00:34:57.550]as you look at the results
[00:34:59.260]from the National Assessment of Educational Progress.
[00:35:02.712]Truth of the matter is, is that our overall attainment
[00:35:07.300]and our graduation rates
[00:35:09.740]have gotten much better over the years
[00:35:13.120]than was the case before
[00:35:16.370]and we've gotten better, faster than the nation at large.
[00:35:21.210]Now part of that, it wasn't just our doing,
[00:35:25.600]but what it is we tried to do as an organization
[00:35:28.620]was to put the tools, the research, the convenings,
[00:35:32.940]the information, and the prodding of school districts
[00:35:41.010]to put all of those things at the disposal
[00:35:43.090]of urban education, create a direction
[00:35:46.470]and a set of incentives where people would want to do better
[00:35:52.790]on behalf of their kids and then push and pull
[00:35:59.810]and coax and lead to a place
[00:36:05.000]where people were using each other's expertise,
[00:36:10.850]using the data that you were creating,
[00:36:14.010]using the technical assistance
[00:36:16.300]that you were putting together for folks
[00:36:19.350]and realizing that over time
[00:36:22.560]it was actually starting to work.
[00:36:24.810]And you could see the difference
[00:36:28.700]in the overall outcomes of the kids,
[00:36:31.790]but it was, and has been maddening,
[00:36:37.310]frustrating, exhausting, exhilarating, rewarding,
[00:36:44.070]all of those things at one time
[00:36:47.100]and I guess if there was,
[00:36:52.070]I would not be able to decouple these things.
[00:36:54.960]That is what has been most rewarding
[00:36:58.570]and what has been the toughest, because I think ultimately,
[00:37:02.300]the most rewarding work is always the most difficult to do
[00:37:07.552]in kind of whatever field you're devoted to.
[00:37:13.620]And that's not to say that we can't backslide here.
[00:37:19.780]I think it's very possible that if we don't remain vigilant,
[00:37:24.460]if we don't continue to grow,
[00:37:26.210]if we don't continue to put more tools
[00:37:29.910]and technical systems and professional development
[00:37:33.680]and all the things that go into improving
[00:37:37.560]the overall outcomes for kids,
[00:37:39.047]and we don't continue to do that,
[00:37:41.560]I think it's easy for us to slip backwards
[00:37:45.140]if we're not very careful
[00:37:47.200]and very vigilant about what is good for kids.
[00:37:53.550]But anyway, I think that's how I would answer that question.
[00:37:57.970]Fantastic, thank you.
[00:37:59.530]Yeah, I love the what's most difficult
[00:38:02.420]is also is often the most meaningful.
[00:38:04.500]I think that's a great lesson for people
[00:38:06.956]who look at leadership, aspiring to leadership roles
[00:38:10.190]and see the parts of it that look most exciting,
[00:38:12.580]but don't see the struggle than it is to get to that
[00:38:15.890]or to do the things that are not exciting,
[00:38:18.930]but are absolutely necessary and meaningful
[00:38:21.650]to their success.
[00:38:23.340]But, leadership is not about standing
[00:38:26.520]in the front of the room.
[00:38:28.340]Not at all, right. (laughs)
[00:38:29.432]No, it is not,
[00:38:30.508]no, leadership is often being in the back of the room
[00:38:33.900]or being in the back room,
[00:38:37.150]doing the hard, careful work that needs to be done,
[00:38:44.280]and then marshaling the forces
[00:38:46.506]that need to be marshaled
[00:38:49.210]in order to move an institution forward.
[00:38:57.690]And that's why I said, it's not the ego-driven stuff,
[00:39:01.310]it's the defining what needs to happen
[00:39:06.760]and then figuring out ways
[00:39:09.420]of getting people to believe the same thing,
[00:39:13.420]and then marshaling their energy in a way
[00:39:16.720]in which they all feel a stake in it,
[00:39:20.340]and then move together in tandem as best you can,
[00:39:25.930]to move a large institution forward.
[00:39:29.740]Dr. Casserly, what you said just reminded me of two things
[00:39:32.930]that I distinctly remember learning
[00:39:35.270]from my building principal when I was a teacher.
[00:39:39.460]I ended up being the assistant principal at the school.
[00:39:43.239]And she was the type of person
[00:39:45.030]that she did everything and anything
[00:39:47.230]on behalf of the students in our building
[00:39:50.110]and sometimes not follow guidelines (laughs)
[00:39:55.530]from the district because, she knew what she was doing.
[00:39:58.066]I've certainly broken my own share of rules.
[00:39:59.940]Yeah (laughs) so you know,
[00:40:01.920]but two things I learned from her
[00:40:04.070]was that it's always I and not we, excuse me,
[00:40:08.200]I said that completely wrong, it's always we and not I,
[00:40:11.200]and then also to never expect your staff,
[00:40:14.660]or people that you work with,
[00:40:15.830]to do anything that you would not ever do.
[00:40:18.880]And so if that meant taking out the trash during lunchtime,
[00:40:23.310]with your high heels on, that's what you do.
[00:40:25.190]And I learned very quickly how to move that rolling trashcan
[00:40:28.070]with my high heels on, grab that bag out
[00:40:30.476]and show them I'm working with you,
[00:40:33.330]I'm not working against you, I'm not working above you.
[00:40:36.330]Yes, I do need to have to make decisions as a leader,
[00:40:39.050]but I'm never gonna expect for you to do anything
[00:40:41.970]that I'm not gonna do and always will have your back.
[00:40:44.210]So thank you so much for sharing that.
[00:40:47.290]Oh, but I agree completely,
[00:40:50.060]and there've been lots of occasions over the years
[00:40:52.990]where I thought to myself,
[00:40:55.437]"Would I ask my staff to do X, Y, and Z?"
[00:40:59.736]And a couple of good examples of this
[00:41:03.210]were during a hurricane Katrina
[00:41:09.040]and hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico.
[00:41:13.650]And I remember in both of those cases, we were asked to,
[00:41:20.300]while those jurisdictions were shut down
[00:41:25.540]and blown apart and underwater,
[00:41:30.454]we were asked to go in and take a look at what was left
[00:41:35.820]in both of those cases
[00:41:38.250]and this was a matter of hours and days
[00:41:42.950]after those disasters happened
[00:41:44.830]and I remember thinking to myself,
[00:41:50.100]would you ask any of your staff to go in there
[00:41:53.086]under what is fairly dangerous conditions
[00:41:57.660]and said, "No, this is one that I will do personally."
[00:42:03.351]'Cause I don't wanna ask anybody
[00:42:06.630]to be putting themselves in that kind of jeopardy
[00:42:10.800]if I won't do it myself.
[00:42:14.840]So I also found myself in very interesting circumstances.
[00:42:19.137](laughs) I bet.
[00:42:20.780]I bet.
[00:42:21.613]In those cases.
[00:42:22.920]Well, this is my last question and it's a challenging one.
[00:42:28.420]And that is what book do you most recommend
[00:42:32.100]or gift to other people?
[00:42:40.650]Oh, this was a challenging one, Scott. (laughs)
[00:42:44.340]I think you stumped him. (laughs)
[00:42:47.600]Yeah, my favorite book
[00:42:50.410]and one that I'm more most likely to give
[00:42:53.750]is a book by Robert Penn Warren
[00:43:01.230]on the former governor,
[00:43:06.820]a very corrupt governor of Louisiana,
[00:43:11.530]the so-called Kingfish.
[00:43:13.860]Right.
[00:43:14.870]And it's a story of corrupt politics
[00:43:22.652]and how people allow themselves
[00:43:27.670]to become corrupted by power.
[00:43:30.231]And it has always served as a huge lesson to me
[00:43:37.570]about kind of staying true to myself
[00:43:43.790]and not letting sometimes the trappings of the position
[00:43:49.800]or the place where I work ever become the occasion
[00:43:59.212]by which I take myself
[00:44:02.280]or the people around me too seriously.
[00:44:05.420]And I love the book because it's a study
[00:44:12.940]of power and corruption
[00:44:15.280]that I think anybody in public life ought to read
[00:44:23.060]and take as a warning sign.
[00:44:25.480]It's not a surprise that the book you chose,
[00:44:28.130]is a book that deals with the need for humility,
[00:44:31.810]after listening to so far.
[00:44:33.730]I mean that has come through in so many ways,
[00:44:36.390]both overtly and, and otherwise.
[00:44:38.910]So thank you for that recommendation.
[00:44:42.530]Okay, so my last big question is,
[00:44:46.690]so all the amazing work that you have done
[00:44:49.050]over the past four decades has had an incredible impact
[00:44:52.880]on the urban educational system, as we know it today,
[00:44:56.380]and I have no doubt that it will continue.
[00:44:59.430]For someone considering
[00:45:00.750]such a tremendous educational leadership role,
[00:45:04.340]such as the one that you were in.
[00:45:06.430]What are a couple of suggestions
[00:45:07.870]that you might have for them?
[00:45:13.490]Well, this is interesting because in some ways
[00:45:18.470]I'm right in the middle of trying to tell my successor
[00:45:27.390]about lessons that I have learned.
[00:45:30.110]Not that anybody can ever hear somebody else's lessons
[00:45:33.910]and fully incorporate them, 'cause you really can't.
[00:45:38.040]You've got to almost learn these things yourself
[00:45:41.890]and assimilate in your own personal way,
[00:45:46.190]in your own personal style.
[00:45:50.210]But I have tried to indicate to him,
[00:46:03.920]and he's gonna be taking over my position on July 1st
[00:46:10.981]let the work and it's mission guide you
[00:46:15.770]and not be guided by your own personal needs,
[00:46:22.390]but to find the work, to find the direction
[00:46:28.190]and let it take you there.
[00:46:30.970]And one, don't be afraid because there's lots of occasions
[00:46:38.230]where you will think to yourself,
[00:46:43.047]this takes more courage than I can possibly muster.
[00:46:47.770]And you've got to move past your own personal fears
[00:46:52.950]and doubts and stay true to the work.
[00:46:58.350]But that means defining the work and the direction
[00:47:03.110]before you go and that gives you the courage
[00:47:06.531]to move forward when things are tough.
[00:47:12.600]That is an excellent answer, thank you so much.
[00:47:15.890]It was terrific.
[00:47:18.910]Okay, so we're moving on to a very fun portion,
[00:47:22.900]very quick.
[00:47:23.980]Okay, well all of this has been fun.
[00:47:26.367]Good, good.
[00:47:27.780]Well, this will kind of give us,
[00:47:30.198]give us and our viewers and listeners,
[00:47:33.310]a different perspective of you,
[00:47:34.580]get to see a different side of you,
[00:47:35.547]hear a different side of you.
[00:47:36.910]So this is what we call the hot seat.
[00:47:39.220]And so I'm gonna randomly give you seven or questions,
[00:47:43.970]this or that type of questions.
[00:47:45.540]And it's gonna be a minute, a minute long,
[00:47:48.410]my colleague here, Scott is gonna time us
[00:47:50.560]and no need for you to think extra long,
[00:47:52.700]super easy fun questions, okay.
[00:47:54.797]Okay.
[00:47:55.750]All right, Scott, you ready?
[00:47:57.302]I'm ready.
[00:47:58.560]All right.
[00:47:59.960]Beach or cabin?
[00:48:02.930]Beach or cabbage?
[00:48:04.800]Cabin, sorry.
[00:48:06.700]Oh, beach or cabin.
[00:48:08.530]Cabin, yes.
[00:48:09.800]Cabin.
[00:48:11.340]I guess you could have cabbage if you wanted to. (laughs)
[00:48:13.100]Yeah I thought you said beach or cabbage.
[00:48:17.151](all laugh)
[00:48:18.340]To veggies.
[00:48:19.961]Yeah. (laughs)
[00:48:21.428]I was going, "What kind of question was that?"
[00:48:26.360]Zoom or in person?
[00:48:29.250]Oh, absolutely in person.
[00:48:32.190]Fancy restaurant or drive through?
[00:48:37.940]Fancy restaurant.
[00:48:39.460]Okay, present or be interviewed?
[00:48:44.560]That'd be interviewed.
[00:48:47.060]Flip-flops, bare feet or dress shoes?
[00:48:52.540]Oh, I'm afraid dress shoes.
[00:48:55.906](all laugh)
[00:48:56.739]Okay, I was thinking that, but hey.
[00:49:00.515]I don't even own a set of the flip-flops.
[00:49:04.240]Nope, okay. (laughs)
[00:49:06.420]Hanging out or alone time?
[00:49:09.090]Alone time.
[00:49:11.480]Leader or on the team?
[00:49:14.510]On the team.
[00:49:15.870]Perfect, that is it.
[00:49:18.020]Thank you so much, Dr. Casserly, for joining us today,
[00:49:21.110]this was such an incredible interview
[00:49:24.760]and you have just done a tremendous amount of amazing work,
[00:49:29.340]and we certainly appreciate all that you have done
[00:49:31.930]and will continue to do
[00:49:33.460]on behalf of students across the nation
[00:49:36.550]or urban schools across the nation,
[00:49:38.870]and look forward to continuing to see everything
[00:49:42.650]that you're gonna do here in the near future.
[00:49:44.790]Mr. Scott, here, any final words?
[00:49:48.520]Yeah, I'm kind of overwhelmed with the lessons
[00:49:57.341]that came out in your answers
[00:49:59.820]and I'm thinking of the different ways
[00:50:01.930]in which those could be shared in bits and pieces and clips.
[00:50:06.360]I mean, I wanna take so many pieces of that
[00:50:09.090]and share it with our students at the university,
[00:50:11.710]our aspiring leaders and with folks around.
[00:50:15.340]So I'm excited for folks to be able to hear your thoughts.
[00:50:19.110]And it's been a privilege
[00:50:21.820]to be able to ask you some questions and listen to you
[00:50:25.260]share your wonderful experience in history.
[00:50:28.920]Well, thank you very much. And learning lessons
[00:50:30.320]for us, yes, yes.
[00:50:32.160]Yeah, thanks, Shavonna, thanks Scott.
[00:50:34.540]It's been a lot of fun
[00:50:35.560]and if there's in any way useful to people, that's great.
[00:50:41.540]Absolutely.
[00:50:42.480]Yeah, thank you so much.
[00:50:44.300]Thank you.
[00:50:45.348](upbeat music)

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Show 4 with Michael Casserly

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