Nebraska Virtual Space Law Week - Spectrum and Space: Future Challenges and Opportunities

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10/12/2021 Added

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Day 3 of Nebraska Space Law Week is on Spectrum and Space activities. Join panelists Jennifer Manner and Jennifer Warren as they discuss Spectrum, its future opportunities and challenges.

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[00:00:01.810]Good afternoon, everybody.
[00:00:02.840]Welcome to the 14th annual
[00:00:05.140]University of Nebraska College of Law Washington, DC
[00:00:07.860]Space Law Conference.
[00:00:09.120]And as you can tell, we're not all in Washington, DC.
[00:00:12.090]We're not all even in the United States.
[00:00:15.330]So we were just lamenting the fact we can't be in person.
[00:00:17.410]Hope to be back in person next year.
[00:00:20.480]But this year, like last year,
[00:00:21.760]it is an online Space Law Week,
[00:00:23.610]one session per day.
[00:00:26.910]We started out with commercial space on Monday,
[00:00:31.270]and then we are moving today
[00:00:35.470]into spectrum management issues.
[00:00:39.810]We're honored to be joined by Jennifer Manner,
[00:00:44.090]Senior Vice President for Regulatory Affairs
[00:00:46.290]at EchoStar Corporation.
[00:00:47.640]Jennifer has previously served in a variety of roles
[00:00:49.840]at the Federal Communications Commission
[00:00:52.150]and serves also as an adjunct professor of law
[00:00:55.610]at the Georgetown Law Center.
[00:00:57.790]And also by Jennifer Warren,
[00:01:00.070]Vice President of Technology Policy and Regulation
[00:01:02.740]at Lockheed Martin.
[00:01:04.690]Jennifer Warren has also previously served
[00:01:07.040]in the Federal Communications Commission
[00:01:09.270]as a senior advisor.
[00:01:11.320]So both Jennifers bring a wealth of experience.
[00:01:14.460]We look forward to hearing from them again
[00:01:16.890]on spectrum management issues.
[00:01:19.320]This year I'm joined by my co-moderator Endeliza Hampton.
[00:01:24.830]She's a third year student here
[00:01:26.350]at the University of Nebraska College of Law,
[00:01:29.040]focusing on cyber telecommunications and satellite law.
[00:01:32.933]Endeliza has done research for a preeminent spectrum
[00:01:39.210]scholar on a spectrum management book,
[00:01:42.230]and has also worked in corporate compliance.
[00:01:45.580]We're delighted to be joined by Endeliza here today
[00:01:48.510]as well to help co-moderate.
[00:01:51.540]Wanted to also mention that this week,
[00:01:54.180]our Space Law Week, our 14th annual conference
[00:01:56.710]is co-sponsored by
[00:01:58.030]the American Society of International Law
[00:02:00.290]Space Law Interest Group,
[00:02:01.640]and the American Branch of International Law Association
[00:02:04.220]Space Law Committee.
[00:02:06.820]And with that, I'm gonna turn it over to Endeliza
[00:02:08.980]to begin the questions for the Jennifers.
[00:02:14.080]Well, thank you very much, Professor Schaefer.
[00:02:16.480]So I'm gonna start, and it's an honor to be on this panel
[00:02:19.789]as I said earlier with everybody here,
[00:02:23.290]but to Ms. Manner and Ms. Warren,
[00:02:25.370]so you both recently served on an advisory committee
[00:02:28.180]that recommended and laid out possible reforms
[00:02:30.780]for spectrum management in the United States.
[00:02:33.540]What reforms would you personally like to see
[00:02:36.660]in the United States regarding spectrum management?
[00:02:45.220]Jen, do you want me to go first,
[00:02:46.658]or do you want to go first?
[00:02:48.140]Okay, I'll go first.
[00:02:49.420]Do you wanna?
[00:02:50.750]No, you go first.
[00:02:51.583]Okay.
[00:02:54.930]So Jennifer was,
[00:02:55.910]and I should mention Jennifer and I
[00:02:57.210]were actually co-professors at Georgetown together.
[00:03:01.650]Jennifer was actually the chair
[00:03:03.110]of the Commerce Spectrum Management Advisory Committee,
[00:03:05.690]and I was the working group chair on this issue.
[00:03:08.200]So we've worked very closely on this as well
[00:03:11.100]as we have throughout our whole career.
[00:03:12.500]So this is a great question,
[00:03:14.290]and I think probably one of the most important
[00:03:19.400]for me personally was revising
[00:03:21.800]the memorandum of understanding that exists
[00:03:24.050]between the FCC and NTIA today
[00:03:26.610]was really one of our early recommendations,
[00:03:29.930]but we actually expanded on that in the second half
[00:03:33.610]of our reports.
[00:03:35.370]And there's an existing MOU since the mid 2000s
[00:03:38.940]between the FCC and NTIA on coordination.
[00:03:42.800]And when we took a look at it, it was fairly,
[00:03:47.150]I mean, it was a good first stab.
[00:03:48.440]It was fairly high level.
[00:03:50.490]It didn't take into account a lot of the changes
[00:03:52.360]that we're seeing, things like spectrum sharing,
[00:03:54.670]really putting in place time limits,
[00:03:57.830]and maybe even greater cooperation among the agencies
[00:04:01.850]and greater, more touches between the agencies.
[00:04:05.170]One of the things we think is maybe a problem
[00:04:07.510]is that people don't spend enough time together
[00:04:11.030]being able to talk through issues.
[00:04:12.730]So we made a whole bunch of recommendations
[00:04:15.930]that we believe could be implemented without legislation.
[00:04:18.890]So that was something else.
[00:04:20.050]We looked at a number of different changes in our report.
[00:04:23.910]Some of them required funding.
[00:04:25.340]Some of them required legislative changes.
[00:04:27.910]This was something that could be done today
[00:04:31.470]by the agencies if they chose.
[00:04:33.270]And we're still very hopeful that there will be a change.
[00:04:36.770]I think this is critical to get in place.
[00:04:39.290]And if you take a look,
[00:04:40.450]we've made some kind of subsidiary recommendations too
[00:04:43.730]to try and increase the coordination
[00:04:45.690]between the FCC and NTIA,
[00:04:47.640]including possibly having shared offices,
[00:04:50.520]having details among the agencies.
[00:04:53.300]We really do believe increasing the communication
[00:04:56.020]can only help things.
[00:04:58.130]The other piece I just want to touch on
[00:04:59.563]that I thought was very important,
[00:05:01.190]and I am seeing implemented
[00:05:03.270]was the idea of more research being done.
[00:05:05.350]And National Science Foundation has started that actually
[00:05:09.910]with creating a center for-
[00:05:14.003]They had a grant proposal center
[00:05:16.320]for more testing and working together
[00:05:18.290]on sharing and so forth.
[00:05:19.990]Programs like that I was very happy to see.
[00:05:23.030]I think more programs like that in the government
[00:05:25.660]is gonna be important and where the private sector
[00:05:27.790]and academia can participate.
[00:05:29.780]So for me personally, those are the top things
[00:05:31.960]and I will turn my floor over to my colleague, Jennifer.
[00:05:36.490]So thank you very much.
[00:05:37.460]So I agree with Jennifer that
[00:05:43.720]an updated MOU is a good interim step,
[00:05:47.880]but I view it as an interim step.
[00:05:50.650]I don't believe it will be sufficient,
[00:05:54.170]and let me spend a moment on why.
[00:05:57.580]When the MOU and was first conceived,
[00:06:00.750]spectrum sharing really wasn't an issue.
[00:06:04.500]Spectrum sharing now is talked about
[00:06:07.720]not just because it's trendy to talk about it,
[00:06:10.350]but because it's almost impossible
[00:06:13.650]to look at the bands that are being targeted
[00:06:17.870]for use by other sectors
[00:06:20.800]and not see spectrum sharing as the question.
[00:06:26.770]It can be satellite.
[00:06:28.080]It can be commercial Satcom,
[00:06:31.060]can be weather, can be federal uses, climate,
[00:06:35.380]all sorts of different types of uses, space and otherwise.
[00:06:40.690]And our spectrum governance model doesn't account for
[00:06:45.390]executive branch national priorities, which may include 5G.
[00:06:49.180]So let me step back on that.
[00:06:51.110]So today, spectrum sharing has to be thought of.
[00:06:54.890]When these things begin,
[00:06:57.070]you had very stove-piped approaches.
[00:06:59.440]Everybody had their own spectrum.
[00:07:01.540]So we have to sit back and say is a system where,
[00:07:08.460]that has worked well up until now,
[00:07:10.310]is it proper going forward
[00:07:12.790]where one agency and an agency that is actually outside
[00:07:16.840]of the executive branch
[00:07:18.550]has unilateral decision-making authority
[00:07:21.320]over the use of spectrum?
[00:07:22.970]Cooperation is great as long as you arrive at consensus
[00:07:26.580]that's often driven more by personality
[00:07:28.670]than technical studies.
[00:07:30.490]And if we want to get to where the United States
[00:07:36.140]can prioritize its national priorities,
[00:07:42.060]there needs to be.
[00:07:43.390]The MOU cannot do that,
[00:07:46.070]because the MOU does not require legislation
[00:07:49.150]and it would require legislation
[00:07:52.040]to make that change so that
[00:07:54.290]decision-making authority is legally shared.
[00:07:57.200]So that would be personally
[00:07:59.770]something that I think would be significant
[00:08:01.610]as we continue to move forward in a shared world.
[00:08:04.170]Thank you.
[00:08:08.550]Well, great.
[00:08:09.610]It's interesting to hear those developments on the MOU
[00:08:13.610]and then possible next steps.
[00:08:15.880]So the Biden administration has been in office
[00:08:18.320]roughly eight months now,
[00:08:20.290]and just wondering if we could get your views
[00:08:23.670]on where they're headed on spectrum management issues,
[00:08:28.340]if it's become clear yet
[00:08:29.730]or where you think they might head
[00:08:31.130]if it's not yet quite clear where they're going on it,
[00:08:34.320]and maybe we can start with Jennifer Warren this time
[00:08:36.550]and then turn to Jennifer Manner.
[00:08:39.890]Sure.
[00:08:40.723]So the Biden administration has yet to appoint
[00:08:46.560]or nominate a head of the National Telecommunications
[00:08:50.029]and Information Administration,
[00:08:55.560]which is, as I think most of your audience may know,
[00:08:58.460]the regulator of federal users of spectrum.
[00:09:01.460]And it remains unclear when they may move forward
[00:09:07.040]with a permanent chair
[00:09:09.310]of the Federal Communications Commission,
[00:09:11.320]although acting chairwoman Rosenworcel
[00:09:13.910]is doing a phenomenal job
[00:09:16.856]and is certainly positioned
[00:09:21.050]should they choose to be the permanent chair.
[00:09:25.730]The question is though, have things stopped
[00:09:30.340]because of those permanent appointments or appointments?
[00:09:33.510]And I would say no.
[00:09:34.620]I mean, the NTIA has had its spectrum summit,
[00:09:38.830]is certainly working forward-
[00:09:42.320]Working on its national spectrum strategy,
[00:09:45.550]is leaning into a lot of dialogues on spectrum sharing.
[00:09:50.400]The FCC under chairwoman Rosenworcel's leadership
[00:09:54.570]is certainly, again, moving forward,
[00:09:56.080]making mid-band spectrum available,
[00:09:58.420]trying to come up with sharing
[00:10:00.400]that works for impacted users.
[00:10:03.910]So I think everybody is moving forward
[00:10:08.570]as far as they can.
[00:10:09.950]I think where we're going to see
[00:10:12.660]some challenges is as we look ahead
[00:10:15.170]and we're in the preparations
[00:10:17.110]for the World Radio Conference.
[00:10:18.690]And I'm sure, I was gonna say Professor Manner,
[00:10:20.610]but Jennifer can speak to that as well.
[00:10:24.610]That's where we're really going to need to see
[00:10:28.110]leadership that we know will take us
[00:10:29.800]all the way through that,
[00:10:30.910]both in the FCC and at NTIA as well as at the state.
[00:10:36.960]But I think we're good for the moment,
[00:10:44.270]but we've got a precipice ahead.
[00:10:46.510]A precipice may not be the right word,
[00:10:47.770]but we've got to a point where we really need to have
[00:10:50.120]leadership there.
[00:10:52.960]So I agree with Jennifer's assessment.
[00:10:56.910]There's one piece that I think is getting interesting,
[00:11:00.780]which is they've appointed their PCAST,
[00:11:03.050]which is the presidential advisory group
[00:11:05.550]on science and technology.
[00:11:07.600]And during the Biden administration,
[00:11:09.770]this was an instrumental group in spectrum sharing,
[00:11:13.060]and for those of you who are aware of what we call CBRS,
[00:11:16.460]which was a novel spectrum sharing approach
[00:11:20.050]that involves satellite terrestrial and government spectrum,
[00:11:23.110]that was recommended by the PCAST
[00:11:24.970]that was done under the Obama administration.
[00:11:28.310]I anticipate that the PCAST
[00:11:31.754]will be used in a similar manner again
[00:11:34.690]to look at spectrum sharing.
[00:11:36.040]So I think that that's one thing that I'd say is different.
[00:11:39.000]The other, just to build on what Jennifer said,
[00:11:41.240]is I see more of a commitment
[00:11:43.780]by the National Science Foundation
[00:11:46.570]on the research side and the idea that they're creating
[00:11:50.101]what I would call basically an incubator
[00:11:52.340]or test sites and things.
[00:11:54.120]I think that's something that we haven't seen before,
[00:11:58.250]and I think Colt's promise at least
[00:12:00.260]for some real life testing and analysis,
[00:12:03.050]which I think is critical.
[00:12:04.410]If you don't have fact-based decisions,
[00:12:07.420]you're gonna end up with bad decisions.
[00:12:09.170]So that's something that I think
[00:12:11.400]hopefully will be included in
[00:12:14.400]to anything that happens as the FCC and NTIA
[00:12:17.890]working with state determine our international,
[00:12:19.920]but as well as our domestic positions,
[00:12:21.970]'cause a lot of what Jennifer's talked about
[00:12:23.550]is really moving forward on things
[00:12:25.473]where the ground has been laid in the past
[00:12:29.130]and are exciting and good policies,
[00:12:31.470]but there needs to be something after that.
[00:12:34.730]And and there definitely needs to be
[00:12:36.510]the national spectrum strategy as Jennifer remarked.
[00:12:47.610]So that actually leads us to another question,
[00:12:50.000]and one of you mentioned it earlier
[00:12:52.210]in regards to terrestrial 5G.
[00:12:54.280]So there is some belief that there is a bias
[00:12:56.780]towards terrestrial 5G against satellite
[00:12:59.680]when it comes to spectrum allocations.
[00:13:02.480]Of course, 5G is part of the infrastructure,
[00:13:06.910]but can you speak to what creates that bias
[00:13:09.530]and what can satellite do to best respond to that?
[00:13:16.087]I guess it's my turn.
[00:13:17.034]So let's start with the fact that
[00:13:19.550]probably everyone has in their hands
[00:13:21.800]or near them right now who's watching this webinar,
[00:13:24.260]at least one communications device if not two.
[00:13:28.370]You have probably your computer and a hat.
[00:13:30.960]So when you think about spectrum, you go,
[00:13:33.607]"Oh, I need it for my cell phone.
[00:13:35.630]Oh, I need it for my computer."
[00:13:38.020]And you may not even think that your-
[00:13:39.540]My computer's actually linked up via satellite,
[00:13:42.640]because I'm at the office and we're a satellite company.
[00:13:46.619]So you don't really think about how do I,
[00:13:48.640]I mean, unless you're paying for it,
[00:13:49.750]you probably don't really pay attention to
[00:13:51.300]who's your provider, right?
[00:13:54.350]But the fact of the matter is everyone has a cell phone.
[00:13:56.630]Everyone thinks it's important.
[00:13:57.900]It's certainly a critical economic driver
[00:14:00.020]for the United States and the globe
[00:14:03.200]and satellite is fairly the unsung hero.
[00:14:07.840]And there was a great-
[00:14:09.670]If you ever get time and you're interested,
[00:14:11.260]I think it was the Society of Satellite Professionals
[00:14:13.720]did a great video years ago,
[00:14:15.657]"A Day in the Life Without Satellite".
[00:14:17.880]And you really saw everything
[00:14:19.780]and things that you don't think of.
[00:14:22.090]When you go to the gas station,
[00:14:24.180]my company, for instance,
[00:14:26.140]provide satellite service to 85% of the gas stations
[00:14:29.060]in the United States to do credit card transactions, right?
[00:14:32.970]There is something you would never think,
[00:14:34.820]much less your programming that comes,
[00:14:38.440]is transmitted via satellite,
[00:14:40.500]et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:14:41.980]Some people get home broadband.
[00:14:44.870]But at the end of the day, everyone thinks satellite.
[00:14:47.410]I mean, everyone thinks terrestrial
[00:14:49.040]and there was a big economic,
[00:14:52.890]plus there's a race for 5G.
[00:14:55.100]And this is one area where I actually think
[00:14:56.750]there is a mistake.
[00:14:58.560]At 3GPP, which is the standards body
[00:15:01.140]that's developing 5G standards,
[00:15:04.390]in March of this year, they're actually gonna release
[00:15:07.160]an update to the standards that include satellites.
[00:15:09.590]So satellite is part of 5G, will be part of 5G,
[00:15:12.690]so that kind of makes it more official,
[00:15:14.350]even though I would argue it's been part of 5G
[00:15:17.520]and it's for a number of different use cases.
[00:15:20.930]The ITU is considering how to work
[00:15:23.640]satellite into its 5G standards.
[00:15:26.020]So satellite is a part,
[00:15:27.570]so I'm somewhat careful when I say 5G versus satellite,
[00:15:30.950]because satellite is part of 5G
[00:15:33.460]as you know, Endeliza, from our discussions.
[00:15:36.280]But I think the bias is mistaken.
[00:15:41.300]We have a smaller economic portion of the country
[00:15:44.900]who uses satellite, so DOD thinks a lot about it.
[00:15:47.940]Rural users think a lot about it.
[00:15:50.370]But at the end of the day, it's just not top of mind.
[00:15:55.220]And in terms of getting it more important,
[00:15:57.400]continued education,
[00:15:58.600]it's something Jennifer and I spend
[00:15:59.910]a fair amount of our time meeting with people
[00:16:02.420]to try and explain
[00:16:04.780]and getting important allies I consider is important.
[00:16:08.040]For instance, we work closely
[00:16:09.390]with certain government agencies
[00:16:10.780]who may have certain interests, certain industrial sectors.
[00:16:14.020]You may have seen this.
[00:16:16.870]In the three gigahertz band,
[00:16:18.740]there's been a long time satellite band,
[00:16:22.160]satellite user operators have joined
[00:16:24.770]with the broadcast industry, for instance,
[00:16:26.720]who relies on that band and relies on the product
[00:16:29.180]from satellite operators
[00:16:30.850]to bring programming to consumers and so forth.
[00:16:34.080]So banding together with the right allies is important,
[00:16:37.840]but it's a hard sell.
[00:16:39.680]I have to say we work every day on this issue
[00:16:43.200]trying to bring home the importance of satellite.
[00:16:45.340]I'm sure Jennifer can add to that.
[00:16:48.860]Yeah, I'll add some
[00:16:51.170]and maybe I'll be a little bit of a realist
[00:16:54.640]as potential other reason.
[00:16:57.080]So building on what Jennifer said,
[00:16:59.190]I mean, I'm looking at my phone, right?
[00:17:00.570]And I'm thinking, I wonder how many people
[00:17:02.440]even stopped to ask
[00:17:04.340]what satellite-based applications are there on here?
[00:17:08.146]Or what applications that run because
[00:17:11.797]of satellite-generated information?
[00:17:16.790]Satellite-provided information?
[00:17:18.333]Weather ultimately comes from satellites.
[00:17:23.250]So there's so many things
[00:17:24.630]that the average user of this phone
[00:17:26.460]and the value that this device provides
[00:17:29.400]doesn't even stop to think, nor should they,
[00:17:31.610]about where does it come?
[00:17:32.930]That is part of our job.
[00:17:34.050]That's why the video that Jennifer talked about
[00:17:35.910]is really important,
[00:17:37.160]and if we could get much more prominence of that,
[00:17:38.633]that would be awesome.
[00:17:39.770]I'd love to have that for every incoming class
[00:17:41.430]in colleges around America.
[00:17:43.530]But in addition to that,
[00:17:46.100]I mean, there's a fundamental regulatory structure
[00:17:51.720]that creates a bias in favor of 5G auctions
[00:17:56.266]to assign spectrum to wireless users,
[00:18:02.360]or at least licensed wireless users
[00:18:05.000]that is viewed as a revenue raiser, a pay for,
[00:18:10.050]and in congressional terms,
[00:18:13.560]it creates, I don't know if it's a bias,
[00:18:16.910]but a predisposition, that might be a nicer word than bias,
[00:18:19.870]a predisposition to,
[00:18:21.327]"Ooh, we ought to auction it."
[00:18:23.120]Satellite spectrum as an auction
[00:18:25.270]in part because we don't need exclusive license.
[00:18:28.380]We don't argue for exclusive license.
[00:18:31.200]The wireless community, always,
[00:18:34.200]on a panel I was on yesterday
[00:18:40.010]continues.
[00:18:41.210]Satellite's never been that way.
[00:18:42.930]So we haven't ever needed auctions.
[00:18:46.160]The only exception to that was kind of a forced construct
[00:18:50.390]with the DARS, the direct radio satellite service,
[00:18:55.940]Sirius XM.
[00:18:57.610]But other than that, there really hasn't been.
[00:19:00.130]And in part because Congress realized
[00:19:02.770]that would be a bad idea,
[00:19:04.090]because satellites are inherently international
[00:19:06.200]and we serve more than one market, a GEO satellite.
[00:19:09.370]One satellite serves more than the United States, right?
[00:19:12.320]So getting that where
[00:19:16.440]satellites would have to pay in multiple markets
[00:19:19.290]was an economic disaster,
[00:19:20.670]so Congress recognized that and banned auctions
[00:19:23.120]for international satellites.
[00:19:24.970]That's ultimately been the right policy.
[00:19:26.900]Has that hurt us in terms of policy?
[00:19:31.890]Probably.
[00:19:37.530]Can I just bring up one other thing?
[00:19:39.970]Jennifer brought up auctions.
[00:19:41.250]There's been only one country that I know of
[00:19:44.130]that's had auctions and that's Brazil,
[00:19:46.610]and they are actually stopping that
[00:19:48.170]because they found it to be not as successful model
[00:19:51.840]in a country that really relies on satellite
[00:19:54.550]because of the rural nature of Brazil.
[00:19:57.770]I just want to bring it up.
[00:19:58.650]So it's not something-
[00:20:00.830]Every few years, every time there's a new president,
[00:20:04.620]the budget proposes satellite auctions
[00:20:06.940]and every four years, thankfully,
[00:20:10.780]that doesn't happen,
[00:20:11.670]but I don't think it would be successful.
[00:20:13.870]I don't think it would get where they want to go
[00:20:16.230]if they had the auctions.
[00:20:20.340]Great.
[00:20:21.173]Well, next topic we wanted to get your views on
[00:20:24.690]is the Internet of Things.
[00:20:27.730]So obviously, some things are
[00:20:30.470]in places that are remote, right?
[00:20:34.070]Ships drilling and in the Arctic
[00:20:38.390]and other places like that.
[00:20:40.850]But obviously, there's also connected devices
[00:20:43.860]within Walmart, the refrigeration systems, et cetera.
[00:20:47.400]And just want you to elaborate a little bit
[00:20:49.770]on the role of satellite, the Internet of Things,
[00:20:51.503]because this is really an exploding marketplace
[00:20:55.510]and tying on your other other comments,
[00:21:00.330]how satellites play this important role
[00:21:02.640]that many don't realize.
[00:21:07.380]And we could start with Jennifer Warren on this one
[00:21:09.520]and then go to Jennifer.
[00:21:11.433]It's not enough to say Jennifer anymore.
[00:21:14.840]So yeah, so IoT.
[00:21:21.130]There's a couple of roles satellite can play.
[00:21:22.870]Obviously it is back haul for connected homes
[00:21:28.620]around, particularly in rural areas, remote areas.
[00:21:34.130]It certainly can do that.
[00:21:35.970]It also has the opportunity, I'm gonna highlight IoMT,
[00:21:39.240]the Internet of Military Things.
[00:21:41.200]And it also has application there
[00:21:44.917]for many of the same rural and remote reasons as well.
[00:21:48.980]But whether it's commercial logistics, military logistics,
[00:21:53.037]that narrow band IoT is very valuable.
[00:21:58.790]And in fact, I don't remember the agenda item
[00:22:05.160]that will address narrowband IoT as well, some spectrum.
[00:22:11.070]So we are watching that with great interest as well.
[00:22:15.920]So the satellite has a role in that.
[00:22:18.410]I'm gonna let Jennifer speak to some more specifics,
[00:22:21.290]but it is kind of something that I think
[00:22:24.150]will serve multiple markets.
[00:22:27.510]No, thank you.
[00:22:28.343]It's agenda item 118, 'cause I chaired the agenda item,
[00:22:30.600]so I know that.
[00:22:31.950]I knew you would know that.
[00:22:34.187]So, but I wanted to hold up,
[00:22:35.717]the FCC is considering tomorrow a notice of inquiry
[00:22:40.340]on spectrum for IoT.
[00:22:42.530]This was required by the National Defense Authorization Act.
[00:22:46.450]And in it, they do ask specific questions
[00:22:49.300]about the need for spectrum for satellite IoT.
[00:22:53.640]One thing I'd like to just say
[00:22:55.680]personally and professionally,
[00:22:57.140]I don't believe in is the identification
[00:23:00.090]or assignment of spectrum specifically for IoT use.
[00:23:04.200]I have vast concerns about spectrum being made
[00:23:07.180]for specific applications,
[00:23:09.200]because applications change
[00:23:11.540]and you don't want to leave any resource stranded.
[00:23:13.780]And this is one of the questions actually
[00:23:16.140]in agenda item 118,
[00:23:17.500]which is an agenda item for consideration at WRC-2023
[00:23:21.060]to make a five megahertz of spectrum available
[00:23:24.470]for narrowband MSS for IoT purposes.
[00:23:27.970]And so this kind of goes against that purpose.
[00:23:32.080]And the reason the agenda item came
[00:23:33.830]was there were some new entrants
[00:23:36.040]who wanted to get some access to spectrum,
[00:23:38.550]and so they decided they needed a new agenda item,
[00:23:41.620]and it's a very controversial agenda item.
[00:23:43.920]I could tell because I'm up at 6:00 AM for weeks on end
[00:23:47.430]talking about this with lots of different views
[00:23:50.550]and some of the bands being considered
[00:23:52.300]have important other uses.
[00:23:54.160]And so, but I think no matter what you say,
[00:23:58.310]satellite has-
[00:24:00.160]And satellite, I should say,
[00:24:01.560]I'm of the view that we do need more spectrum.
[00:24:04.100]I think we're spectrum-constrained.
[00:24:06.380]I think, especially in the future,
[00:24:07.910]where so many bands that we've been planning to use
[00:24:10.970]or are being also used for terrestrial
[00:24:13.250]more and more and opening, it's a bigger concern.
[00:24:15.650]One of the things that satellite brings to IoT
[00:24:18.290]is its wide area coverage and its resiliency.
[00:24:21.810]And so even in a situation, so I look at-
[00:24:26.050]Professor Schaefer, you brought up maritime,
[00:24:29.320]whatever, Arctic.
[00:24:30.740]I think about everything.
[00:24:32.160]I look out my window
[00:24:33.880]and I've got utility poles
[00:24:37.930]and they're everywhere.
[00:24:38.980]So having a satellite network be able to connect utilities
[00:24:42.080]or not just connect, but be able to monitor.
[00:24:44.960]And some places you may need backup
[00:24:47.600]because the main facility may be so important.
[00:24:49.900]So it may be terrestrial and satellite.
[00:24:53.117]And then because of the wide area coverage,
[00:24:57.760]I talked about the gas stations earlier.
[00:25:00.730]We connect gas stations in urban areas
[00:25:03.870]as well as rural areas,
[00:25:05.010]because you can connect with a single network
[00:25:08.210]and there's certain efficiencies with that.
[00:25:10.600]So I think you'll see satellite's IoT role
[00:25:14.010]be multiple, whether it's being on cars,
[00:25:18.760]whether it's on utility poles,
[00:25:20.160]whether it's on military vehicles.
[00:25:23.079]And satellite brings a certain reliability
[00:25:26.070]that isn't available.
[00:25:27.880]The other item the FCC has opened is,
[00:25:30.610]is considering tomorrow's item on resiliency.
[00:25:33.460]And one of the things they're proposing is
[00:25:35.010]to extend their disaster,
[00:25:38.800]when you have outages during disaster response.
[00:25:41.810]But the truth is, it's kind of a funny one,
[00:25:43.930]they're saying, "Well, should we extend this to satellite?"
[00:25:45.760]But satellite really doesn't have the same sort of outages
[00:25:48.820]during bad weather events than terrestrial networks.
[00:25:51.240]So I don't expect necessarily that there's gonna be
[00:25:54.300]this huge influx, even if they change it in for IoT
[00:25:57.450]where a lot of these are critical functions,
[00:25:59.610]like monitoring, reporting and so forth.
[00:26:02.810]Satellite is a really nice compliment.
[00:26:04.720]So thank you.
[00:26:11.026]So that leads us to the next question.
[00:26:12.210]You both actually mentioned the ITU
[00:26:15.630]and upcoming agenda items.
[00:26:17.520]So I'm gonna start with Jennifer Manner.
[00:26:20.520]If you could tell us what you see as the biggest issues
[00:26:24.070]that will be addressed at the WRC-23
[00:26:26.700]and then Jennifer Warren, if you could continue.
[00:26:29.420]And I think we'll be a good compliment
[00:26:30.920]because Jennifer understands the-
[00:26:33.140]I'm sorry, Jen.
[00:26:36.830]I said don't list them all.
[00:26:39.030]No, I'm not.
[00:26:39.863]I was gonna say you can do all the government ones
[00:26:42.230]because I don't know those.
[00:26:43.563]So I'll start with some of the-
[00:26:47.110]So we talked about agenda item 118,
[00:26:49.090]but just going down from that is,
[00:26:53.550]and maybe I can give a brief overview of some of them
[00:26:56.150]and then we can delve into them.
[00:26:57.680]But 116, which is one which is gonna make
[00:27:00.383]digital spectrum for NGSOs available
[00:27:02.850]for earth stations in motion.
[00:27:05.100]That's important.
[00:27:06.350]I'm gonna focus on the next one,
[00:27:07.870]'cause this one I find very, very interesting,
[00:27:10.080]and that is agenda item 117 on inter-satellite links.
[00:27:15.530]And the idea is that,
[00:27:18.680]this was actually a proposal by the United States
[00:27:21.600]at the last conference.
[00:27:23.230]And the idea is to be able to reuse Ku and Ka band,
[00:27:27.610]which are two workhorse frequency bands for satellite,
[00:27:31.510]for inter-satellite links between LEOs, MEOs, and GEOs.
[00:27:36.530]And so the question is how do you do that
[00:27:38.660]in a way that works
[00:27:40.160]and how do you still protect the existing operations?
[00:27:43.210]And so we're a geostationary operator in this band,
[00:27:46.310]and we want to make sure that if you've got,
[00:27:48.910]if you think about it,
[00:27:49.743]if you've got links between all the different systems,
[00:27:51.860]you don't want them to interfere with existing systems.
[00:27:54.930]But it's an efficient use of spectrum
[00:27:56.850]if you can get it to work.
[00:27:59.040]The other ones, I think I'm gonna leave some for Jennifer.
[00:28:01.620]I don't know which one she wants to cover,
[00:28:02.850]so I'm gonna guess,
[00:28:04.430]but a big portion of this has to do with,
[00:28:08.120]some things are not even work-related.
[00:28:10.270]We're looking at an issue on software changes
[00:28:13.150]and there needs to be certain changes to the ITU software.
[00:28:17.360]And how does that impact protection between GEOs
[00:28:20.360]and non-GEO satellite systems?
[00:28:23.680]That's actually a huge issue,
[00:28:25.130]and I'd say one that's taking up
[00:28:26.510]a significant amount of time.
[00:28:28.760]I'm gonna bring up one other
[00:28:30.530]and then turn it over to Jennifer
[00:28:31.780]so I make sure not to go through all of them,
[00:28:33.990]but this is an important one.
[00:28:35.280]As I talked about, more spectrum is always good.
[00:28:38.160]And so besides for the additional spectrum for MSS IoT,
[00:28:41.480]there's an item for additional spectrum for FSS,
[00:28:43.960]or fixed satellite service, in the 17 gigahertz band.
[00:28:47.710]That's a band that today is used
[00:28:48.980]by the broadcast satellite service.
[00:28:51.160]And the GEOs and non-GEOs probably can share for gateways,
[00:28:55.690]which are larger stations.
[00:28:58.050]That's the only in region two,
[00:29:00.590]but it would give access to some more spectrum
[00:29:02.740]that I can say from a commercial operator's perspective
[00:29:05.960]is much needed, especially as we're offering
[00:29:07.900]broadband throughout the Americas.
[00:29:09.220]So Jennifer I'll turn it over to you
[00:29:10.420]to make sure I don't cover everything.
[00:29:13.920]Well, I was just gonna pick one
[00:29:15.570]and then kind of take a little liberty.
[00:29:17.270]But the first one, the real one that I was gonna focus on
[00:29:21.360]has to do an unmanned aerial systems,
[00:29:23.200]and you'll think what's that got to do with satellite?
[00:29:25.330]Well, it's command and control of unmanned aerial systems
[00:29:28.450]by satellites, right?
[00:29:30.000]And so if you think of cargo transport,
[00:29:34.490]be it maritime or aeronautical,
[00:29:38.380]really important commercial application
[00:29:42.330]of command and control for that type
[00:29:44.700]of autonomous transport.
[00:29:48.562]And you would think this was not something
[00:29:52.200]that was a big deal, but it has been
[00:29:56.370]an agenda item for the last two conferences,
[00:29:59.470]has been one of the ones that has kept us up
[00:30:01.330]till five, six in the morning in the full plenaries.
[00:30:04.950]It is a challenge.
[00:30:08.390]Some of it, you can understand the discussion,
[00:30:10.950]because folks needed to understand
[00:30:12.630]how can you use satellite spectrum
[00:30:15.070]for command and control capabilities
[00:30:17.210]without having it be a safety band,
[00:30:19.620]a band that's designated with special requirements
[00:30:22.400]for safety?
[00:30:23.233]And so a lot of time has been spent with iKO,
[00:30:29.417]because obviously they care about aviation safety
[00:30:32.160]as we all do.
[00:30:33.490]And so it's been really working a lot of technical effort
[00:30:36.750]in educating and gaining confidence
[00:30:39.420]in the models that are being proposed
[00:30:41.180]and the approaches that are being proposed.
[00:30:42.810]But it also has some, oh, regional issues
[00:30:47.030]and it's become quite a contentious issue
[00:30:51.340]in the working groups that are meeting on this topic
[00:30:54.370]over the last year virtually,
[00:30:56.520]and it's much more difficult as Jennifer knows
[00:30:59.270]to deal with contentious issues virtually.
[00:31:06.120]The benefit of being in person is
[00:31:08.750]and in sit-downs where you don't
[00:31:09.770]have to have a microphone on you
[00:31:14.040]and just really talk to the person that has issues.
[00:31:16.960]In this context, one can't do that.
[00:31:19.030]So until we really resume,
[00:31:20.930]it's been harder to make the progress we hope.
[00:31:23.450]But unmanned systems for command and control by satellite,
[00:31:26.820]I'd say is one of the more prominent ones.
[00:31:31.030]And then it's not for this WRC,
[00:31:33.430]but I'm gonna put it out there as something that
[00:31:36.200]might be of interest to the audience,
[00:31:38.350]which is the jurisdiction of the IDU
[00:31:42.190]with respect to non-earth-centric communications.
[00:31:48.420]And obviously space and satellites
[00:31:51.690]play an important role in that,
[00:31:54.670]a critical role.
[00:31:55.730]And when you look at the ITU constitution and convention,
[00:32:00.310]it is very earth-centric.
[00:32:02.400]So the question is, if you want to get to
[00:32:04.440]robotic communications on the moon,
[00:32:06.990]you want to get to inter habitat communications.
[00:32:11.000]You want to focus on that next planet
[00:32:15.720]and not just bringing in
[00:32:17.550]or not just sending comms up to the astronauts.
[00:32:24.950]Is there a region of the world for the ITU
[00:32:31.490]to allocate spectrum?
[00:32:33.010]Well, what's the approach?
[00:32:34.080]And this is not theoretical.
[00:32:35.600]There are actually ITU filings to deal
[00:32:38.140]with communications on the moon.
[00:32:40.660]And we haven't had this policy,
[00:32:42.283]it's not even policy, this discussion
[00:32:45.290]yet at the ITU formally,
[00:32:48.290]but it's gonna be a really interesting topic
[00:32:50.260]over the next year or two.
[00:32:51.590]So not on the WRC, but it is ITU, Endeliza.
[00:33:01.200]Thank you for that great rundown of WRC-23.
[00:33:05.910]Moving onto a topic that came up a little bit there,
[00:33:08.240]but just a three-part question.
[00:33:10.300]The lower earth orbit satellite communication systems
[00:33:13.550]are obviously coming on online,
[00:33:15.530]the LEO systems are coming online.
[00:33:17.960]And so the three questions are,
[00:33:19.320]do you think that the WRC-19 got it right
[00:33:22.360]in terms of the bring into use requirements,
[00:33:24.620]10% within two years, 50% within five years
[00:33:27.827]and 100% within seven years?
[00:33:30.920]Do you think there's ultimately gonna have to be
[00:33:33.000]consolidation of the LEO systems?
[00:33:35.510]That second quick question.
[00:33:37.380]And the third question is
[00:33:39.360]what do you see in terms of potential future
[00:33:44.210]conflicts between LEO and GEO systems?
[00:33:47.010]We mentioned it a little bit in the last question.
[00:33:49.520]So I guess we'll start with Jennifer Warren on that one
[00:33:52.720]and go to Jennifer Manner.
[00:33:56.210]I was afraid I was gonna get this one first.
[00:33:58.772](laughs)
[00:34:00.760]So.
[00:34:03.740]Yes, this is a very hard question.
[00:34:06.100]I'm not gonna speculate on consolidation.
[00:34:15.260]It is just unclear to me
[00:34:18.918]how that would work.
[00:34:20.790]What would the antitrust authorities think?
[00:34:24.250]What would be, because there are different flags-
[00:34:32.036]I just don't know.
[00:34:34.025]Now we've been in this situation before,
[00:34:38.330]but not with the technology as advanced as it is today.
[00:34:41.740]Jennifer knows well the days of Teledesic.
[00:34:44.520]We had SkyBridge from the French,
[00:34:46.740]we had Celeste straight from the United States.
[00:34:52.242]I'm forgetting a few others.
[00:34:57.400]I think there's an inevitability to deployment.
[00:35:00.340]I mean, obviously, some are already being deployed.
[00:35:03.400]Time will tell.
[00:35:04.233]I'm just gonna hedge on that one.
[00:35:06.010]I really can't feel that one.
[00:35:10.770]I know there are a lot of skeptics,
[00:35:12.670]so I'm gonna stay out of the skeptics camp.
[00:35:16.800]In terms of the actual results of WRC-19,
[00:35:20.380]it was a very reasonable choice
[00:35:25.380]that was made in terms of the milestones.
[00:35:28.040]Could they have gone a different way?
[00:35:29.530]For sure.
[00:35:32.310]Was it unreasonable, was it irrational?
[00:35:34.970]Not at all.
[00:35:37.310]I think it's too soon to second guess it.
[00:35:40.260]I think we need to see practical implementation.
[00:35:45.210]but it certainly, I think it was a reasonable approach.
[00:35:50.070]Not the only one, but reasonable.
[00:35:51.750]Jennifer?
[00:35:54.200]So I agree with Jennifer starting with the-
[00:35:59.110]I think the most important thing was
[00:36:00.730]there needed to be something to guard against
[00:36:02.430]some sort of speculation
[00:36:03.770]and there needed to be some sort of build out requirement,
[00:36:06.140]which was broader than what was in effect,
[00:36:08.160]which was you just have to bring
[00:36:09.280]a single satellite into use.
[00:36:11.610]You have a lot of spectrum
[00:36:13.220]and you don't want to lay it fallow
[00:36:14.750]just like we've been talking about with any spectrum.
[00:36:17.040]So I agree with Jennifer.
[00:36:19.000]On the consolidation, my personal belief
[00:36:22.130]is there probably will be some consolidation,
[00:36:24.240]but I agree with Jennifer that there's
[00:36:26.210]so many issues with it and what it looks like
[00:36:28.760]and how that goes,
[00:36:29.830]and if it happens at all is anyone's guess.
[00:36:33.770]I think maybe the other thing besides the technology,
[00:36:36.957]the cost has come down.
[00:36:38.350]In some ways, the space technology's always been there.
[00:36:41.090]Or it has been there since I was working for Teledesic
[00:36:44.140]years and years ago.
[00:36:45.720]But what wasn't there was the grant equipment
[00:36:48.900]and you've seen Elon Musk with SpaceX
[00:36:50.800]deploy a very attractive user terminal
[00:36:53.460]that, while still expensive,
[00:36:54.900]it is much more reasonably priced,
[00:36:56.690]especially in today's world
[00:36:58.270]where you've got, I don't know, $1,000 iPhones.
[00:37:02.820]So I think we're in a better place for success.
[00:37:05.726]I've been waiting since 1995 for an NGSO broadband system.
[00:37:10.510]We used to call it high-speed data then,
[00:37:12.040]we didn't call it broadband.
[00:37:14.426]So we'll say, but I did want to touch a little on
[00:37:16.410]Endeliza's question on the issues created
[00:37:20.880]between LEO and GEO.
[00:37:23.290]And this is a complex issue.
[00:37:26.600]So just for background, when I worked for Teledesic,
[00:37:30.380]we entered the world where every single frequency band
[00:37:33.960]or almost every signal frequency band
[00:37:35.780]had a de facto priority for geostationary orbit systems.
[00:37:40.700]And so what Teledesic tried to do was get rid of-
[00:37:43.610]It was radio regulation 2613,
[00:37:47.520]in certain frequency bands so that they could deploy
[00:37:50.440]a non-GEO that was protected,
[00:37:52.220]that didn't have to protect GEOs
[00:37:54.270]and had the required protection.
[00:37:56.540]They were successful at WRC-95 and 97 to do that.
[00:38:00.300]Ultimately that got withdrawn by the ITU
[00:38:04.420]because there was no real deployment in those bands.
[00:38:07.810]So we're in a world now where
[00:38:10.690]there needed to be some protection.
[00:38:12.160]We've moved from this exclusive bands,
[00:38:15.230]once again, towards greater technology,
[00:38:17.440]increased ability to share,
[00:38:19.090]to have what we call EPFD limits,
[00:38:21.150]so essentially power limits to protect GEOs.
[00:38:25.607]The LEOs and one company in particular, OneWeb,
[00:38:28.980]who's actually a partner with my company
[00:38:31.010]and who were building out their network,
[00:38:32.610]have come out and said,
[00:38:33.450]we'd like to do away with the EPFD limits.
[00:38:35.500]We don't think we should have to protect GEOs anymore.
[00:38:38.980]And this is the fight,
[00:38:40.350]what I talked about earlier with the software piece,
[00:38:42.940]which is what protection do LEOs have to give GEOs,
[00:38:47.710]and perhaps, maybe, I'm not an engineer,
[00:38:50.410]so I'm not going to opine
[00:38:52.170]on what the interference environment looks like
[00:38:54.140]between GEOs and LEOs,
[00:38:56.020]but what does that protection regime look like?
[00:38:58.420]And I think that is both a competitive
[00:39:01.210]as well as a technical fight going on right now.
[00:39:04.700]So I think that's something to watch
[00:39:06.680]and something that will really develop.
[00:39:09.390]For instance, there's a UK consultation
[00:39:12.290]that comments were due on, I want to say on Monday,
[00:39:15.770]on this very issue,
[00:39:17.100]and it's actually on the issue of NGSO to NGSO.
[00:39:21.690]And then some of the GEOs have come in and said,
[00:39:24.417]"Wait, you can't figure till you also
[00:39:26.380]figure out how to protect me."
[00:39:28.910]So this is gonna have to be addressed at some point.
[00:39:32.330]And I don't think it's really teed up appropriately
[00:39:36.010]at this conference,
[00:39:38.520]but domestic regulators are addressing it
[00:39:40.532]while there's a void,
[00:39:42.545]and I think it's gonna come to a head
[00:39:45.080]in the next couple of years.
[00:39:48.720]Well, Endeliza and I are switching up the order
[00:39:50.660]for the last two questions here
[00:39:51.890]so that she gets the last question.
[00:39:55.240]The second to last one is concerning orbital debris.
[00:39:58.900]And that's been getting a lot of attention
[00:40:01.300]with the FCC looking at the issue.
[00:40:03.860]Obviously there's provisions in the Artemis Accords
[00:40:06.920]on orbital debris,
[00:40:09.610]and just wanted to get both of your views on that.
[00:40:13.080]what needs to happen or should happen
[00:40:15.190]here domestically within the United States,
[00:40:17.870]and then also at the international level
[00:40:21.860]on this issue of orbital debris?
[00:40:23.740]And we'll start with Jennifer Manner on this one
[00:40:25.590]and then go to Jennifer Warren.
[00:40:27.940]So actually Jennifer and I have had conversations-
[00:40:30.330]We actually co-chair the Space Sustainability Working Group
[00:40:33.880]for the Satellite Industry Association,
[00:40:35.710]and we had a very good meeting this week
[00:40:38.220]with some folks on the government on this.
[00:40:41.520]I think the first thing that's important
[00:40:43.180]is that the satellite industry does believe
[00:40:45.210]there needs to be some action taken
[00:40:48.090]both domestically and internationally in this,
[00:40:50.620]and does want to be responsible,
[00:40:53.710]does believe the future of our company's business,
[00:40:57.230]all of ours, is on a safe space environment.
[00:41:00.170]So let me start with that.
[00:41:02.650]I think what we're disappointed in
[00:41:04.950]is that the United States has not taken
[00:41:07.120]more of a leadership role here.
[00:41:09.730]And when we say the United States,
[00:41:11.760]we're not talking about the FCC.
[00:41:14.240]What we'd like to see is a government agency
[00:41:17.810]that's assigned with the task
[00:41:19.720]for creating the framework for the US.
[00:41:21.590]So for instance, you would have an expert agency.
[00:41:26.020]I'm partial to the Office of Space Commerce,
[00:41:29.620]at the Department of Commerce, for instance,
[00:41:31.370]would be the lead agency, and then they would create,
[00:41:34.050]they would do the work, create the standards
[00:41:35.940]that the agencies with subject matter jurisdiction,
[00:41:38.420]for instance, the FCC would impose on licensees.
[00:41:42.230]So we'd have a lead agency.
[00:41:44.190]They would work with the Department of State
[00:41:45.820]and other agencies to come up with things internationally
[00:41:49.450]and really become a leader internationally.
[00:41:51.960]My big concern as a US company and as a US citizen
[00:41:55.660]is I want the US to be the leader in this area,
[00:41:58.730]working with our allies and developing a regime
[00:42:01.310]and getting a regime that everyone can buy into globally.
[00:42:05.230]And so since we haven't done that domestically,
[00:42:07.750]it's hard to go out and say,
[00:42:08.897]"This is the right way internationally."
[00:42:11.290]The other thing is, I'm not against regulations,
[00:42:15.280]but the regulations have to be flexible
[00:42:18.150]and allow companies to innovate to meet the requirements.
[00:42:21.470]And I always go back to a good example
[00:42:24.460]when I was at the FCC years ago, the commission,
[00:42:28.970]and this goes back to Jennifer's original statement
[00:42:32.450]about what satellite equipment-
[00:42:35.390]What do you use your cell phone?
[00:42:36.450]Is that satellite-dependent?
[00:42:37.730]And GPS.
[00:42:39.540]So the FCC was putting location accuracy rules
[00:42:42.100]for 911 calling so that you could
[00:42:43.990]find people in an emergency, right?
[00:42:45.610]Because you might have a cell phone,
[00:42:47.500]but if you're unable to-
[00:42:48.910]If they can't find you and you don't know where you are,
[00:42:52.640]it's a problem.
[00:42:53.473]So the FCC could have chosen a technology,
[00:42:56.490]and there were several technologies being considered,
[00:42:59.160]including GPS,
[00:43:00.660]but the FCC didn't want to make that call
[00:43:02.980]and rightfully said we'll allow
[00:43:05.640]the cell phone operators, manufacturers
[00:43:07.680]to determine what the best technology is.
[00:43:09.840]And I'd say a big reason we have Uber Eats and Uber cabs
[00:43:14.490]and everything else we have
[00:43:16.620]is because the FCC had this requirement,
[00:43:18.840]but they also didn't dictate technology.
[00:43:21.090]So here, again, as we're looking at regulations
[00:43:24.960]or a framework, a regulatory framework for orbital debris,
[00:43:28.870]who knows what people are gonna think
[00:43:31.390]of as a way to meet certain requirements?
[00:43:33.660]So giving the industry the flexibility to respond to that
[00:43:36.700]and develop the best approaches
[00:43:39.000]that that meet the requirements is my preferred choice.
[00:43:42.910]So with that, I'll turn over to Jennifer.
[00:43:46.310]Not surprising since we co-chair
[00:43:49.160]the Sustainability Working Group,
[00:43:50.930]we're pretty aligned on this,
[00:43:52.320]so I'll just add some dimensions to this.
[00:43:56.110]I mean, orbital debris is part of the larger dialogue
[00:43:59.280]on space sustainability, right?
[00:44:01.720]And I agree with Jennifer,
[00:44:03.902]there's abundant opportunity here to lead by both example,
[00:44:17.939]and I'll call it advocacy.
[00:44:20.470]So a couple of different points here.
[00:44:22.160]So industry doesn't necessarily need regulation
[00:44:26.790]to try and take steps that are,
[00:44:29.370]and further on sustainability, I mean,
[00:44:31.586]SIA is subscribed to certain sustainability principles,
[00:44:37.620]a multinational group of operators and governments
[00:44:42.470]and academia work with the World Economic Forum
[00:44:45.840]to develop the Space Sustainability Rating System,
[00:44:51.550]which is gonna be coming online,
[00:44:53.360]and companies are gonna be submitting their satellites
[00:44:56.800]to that rating review voluntary, right?
[00:44:59.580]But getting a good housekeeping seal of approval
[00:45:02.300]of your satellite,
[00:45:04.180]getting into orbit in the most sustainable fashion
[00:45:09.570]from manufacturer to delivery on orbit,
[00:45:12.570]that's important, right?
[00:45:15.721]And that's without mandates.
[00:45:17.990]It's with understanding one's corporate role
[00:45:21.730]and responsibility.
[00:45:23.240]However, at the same time,
[00:45:26.840]there are so many different players
[00:45:28.700]that are participating in space,
[00:45:31.130]industry, academia, scientists,
[00:45:34.020]or I should say universities, right?
[00:45:36.020]There's so many folks that are launching, governments.
[00:45:39.340]And there are no lanes in space.
[00:45:42.030]And so we have to share this common area.
[00:45:44.430]And it just doesn't seem as if
[00:45:47.455]we can do this without some framework
[00:45:52.640]that, and I'll come back to Jennifer's point
[00:45:55.530]on flexibility because that is important,
[00:45:59.520]but some framework, but not multiple frameworks,
[00:46:03.330]let alone multiple frameworks within a single country.
[00:46:07.430]So I really admire all the federal agencies
[00:46:11.650]that are showing an interest in regulating
[00:46:15.410]or looking at this space.
[00:46:16.740]We have the FCC proceeding,
[00:46:17.960]we have the FAA going to launch an NPRM on orbital debris.
[00:46:22.200]We have NASA with its own standards.
[00:46:25.650]It's kind of like, okay,
[00:46:26.720]how do we get to whole of government?
[00:46:28.230]Because none of us are stove-piped in our own lanes.
[00:46:31.230]We have ride shares, hosted payloads
[00:46:35.760]and OSA being launched with GEO rides.
[00:46:40.350]I mean, there's just so much going on
[00:46:44.600]and that's just the satellites that have to worry about it.
[00:46:47.000]But there's other things that will be in space
[00:46:48.740]that are gonna have to worry about orbital debris,
[00:46:50.240]not just satellites.
[00:46:51.340]If we, again, are looking to the future of a space economy.
[00:46:55.690]So getting a whole of government approach,
[00:46:57.930]which I think is certainly something that has some traction,
[00:47:02.870]but we're a long way from it, will be important.
[00:47:05.310]And then when we have that,
[00:47:07.300]how do we export what we've agreed on?
[00:47:13.985]And it can't be so agreed upon
[00:47:16.240]that we can't negotiate a little bit, right?
[00:47:18.340]Because you can't just expect people
[00:47:19.750]to agree to what one country has thought through.
[00:47:23.680]But we have to also work really hard on the principle
[00:47:27.910]that Jennifer talked about,
[00:47:28.980]which is flexibility and contract land, right?
[00:47:31.440]I would call it performance requirements
[00:47:34.180]rather than design requirements.
[00:47:37.360]So we need to have established as frameworks,
[00:47:39.320]what are the objectives that need to be achieved?
[00:47:44.770]Leave it to the folks who are launching into space
[00:47:48.630]and getting authorized to do that
[00:47:50.510]to demonstrate how they're going to achieve that.
[00:47:53.940]So there's constantly incentives to find better ways
[00:47:56.390]that perhaps will be cheaper, more green, more efficient,
[00:48:00.013]but you've got the performance objective.
[00:48:02.390]And then you've got the technology that can keep innovating
[00:48:04.695]and hopefully become a competitive market
[00:48:07.780]in which the US will lead offering that
[00:48:09.520]to others around the world.
[00:48:11.780]So there's a lot of components
[00:48:13.820]to what I just kind of laid out there,
[00:48:15.630]but I think it's a real opportunity.
[00:48:18.110]And this feeds into something
[00:48:19.480]Jennifer and I were talking about earlier this week,
[00:48:21.560]which is, it's just been agreed as I understand it,
[00:48:25.108]that there's gonna be a summit of the future
[00:48:26.770]in 2023 by the UN.
[00:48:29.360]A large component of that summit of the future
[00:48:31.780]will deal with the space economy
[00:48:35.220]and will deal with space traffic management.
[00:48:37.870]And by definition, I would imagine
[00:48:39.610]some orbital debris in there.
[00:48:41.695]We've got a timeline ahead of us that we can work towards.
[00:48:45.430]Those are some of my thoughts on that.
[00:48:52.240]Thank you, and that actually leads us
[00:48:54.050]to the last question before we take any questions
[00:48:57.228]from the audience.
[00:49:00.370]We've talked a lot about the Internet of Things,
[00:49:02.560]GPS, cell phones, satellite radio, and spectrum,
[00:49:06.860]and its proper management is actually so crucial
[00:49:10.495]and critical to our daily lives.
[00:49:13.268]Is there anything that you think would be helpful
[00:49:18.520]ways to get the populace to better really understand
[00:49:21.680]and engage in these issues
[00:49:23.010]so they could actually demand reform from our government?
[00:49:30.180]And you're letting me go first, huh?
[00:49:32.510]So-
[00:49:33.969](laughs)
[00:49:37.730]So I thought about this question a lot, actually.
[00:49:41.750]And I think the best thing we can do realistically
[00:49:51.160]is educate our downstream users as best we can
[00:49:56.790]so that it's not only when they go into
[00:50:00.000]the T-Mobile store that they think about
[00:50:03.020]a use of spectrum, right?
[00:50:08.270]And brand things a little better.
[00:50:09.930]Brought to you by satellite.
[00:50:12.510]We don't do that as a community.
[00:50:14.260]We don't do that in our advertising.
[00:50:17.360]It might say brought by EchoStar II.
[00:50:20.260]It might say brought by Lockheed Martin.
[00:50:24.300]That'd be on an operator in that sense though,
[00:50:26.270]but still it doesn't say brought to you by satellite
[00:50:29.730]and not everybody knows the names of companies
[00:50:32.490]and what they do and what that means.
[00:50:34.660]And so is there that way?
[00:50:36.750]And then building coalitions again.
[00:50:39.140]Working across the coalition so that
[00:50:41.910]the policymakers understand.
[00:50:44.366]That's where we really have to ensure-
[00:50:48.380]Staff changeover's huge,
[00:50:50.927]and we have to stay on top of that and make sure
[00:50:54.840]that they all appreciate, even if they don't agree,
[00:50:58.790]but appreciate the role of satellite
[00:51:02.490]because you can argue with informed decision-making,
[00:51:05.510]but if it's informed, at least that's one less
[00:51:08.366]personal worry I have as a citizen.
[00:51:11.527]It's when it's uninformed that it really troubles me.
[00:51:17.210]So needless to say, I agree with Jennifer.
[00:51:19.970]A couple other points, maybe on some other areas.
[00:51:23.180]First, I've thought about this in a different way,
[00:51:28.120]which is, is it important for people to understand
[00:51:31.870]how things work or why they work that way
[00:51:34.120]so they're not as frustrated with their services?
[00:51:36.950]And so at one point I was talking to someone
[00:51:40.460]in one of the scientific agencies
[00:51:43.320]about whether there was funding available
[00:51:45.290]to start to teach children in schools
[00:51:47.670]like, how does my cell phone work?
[00:51:49.600]How does my satellite TV work?
[00:51:51.500]How do these things work?
[00:51:54.760]You hear a lot of people say,
[00:51:55.827]"Well, I'm getting,
[00:51:57.210]I have problems with getting X."
[00:52:00.150]But some of it's just because,
[00:52:01.690]it is because there's physics involved.
[00:52:04.570]And so one thing I actually think would be good
[00:52:07.440]since communications is so important in our lives
[00:52:10.870]is if somehow it ended up incorporated into a curriculum,
[00:52:14.390]whether that's a science curriculum, whatever,
[00:52:16.840]at an early age, so that these are important,
[00:52:20.621]more and more an important device.
[00:52:22.440]So that's one thing.
[00:52:24.100]The other thing I think is civil society.
[00:52:28.570]And Jennifer and I just talked about this in class.
[00:52:32.710]Getting civil society to understand
[00:52:34.840]not how Spectrum's allocated from the technical side,
[00:52:38.940]but understanding the importance
[00:52:41.040]of why having satellite, for instance,
[00:52:43.740]is important to ensure that you're addressing
[00:52:45.910]the digital divide in developing countries.
[00:52:50.460]So it goes back to Jennifer's coalition-building.
[00:52:52.901]I think there needs to be outreach to more and more
[00:52:58.850]outside of our normal-
[00:53:01.860]I live very much in the telecommunications world
[00:53:04.030]outside of who I might think,
[00:53:05.197]"Oh, there's public knowledge,
[00:53:06.670]or there's tech freedom."
[00:53:08.750]But actually, to give you an example,
[00:53:12.496]one group that's a very good advocate for satellite
[00:53:15.860]is Doctors Without Borders, Doctors Without Frontiers.
[00:53:19.340]They rely on satellite when they're in the field
[00:53:22.410]and they'll speak up.
[00:53:24.120]So I think is a role for them in terms of an advocate,
[00:53:27.910]but in terms of having people at the ITU
[00:53:30.340]or participating in FCC rulemakings
[00:53:32.980]on the very technical issues,
[00:53:35.240]I mean, everyone's welcome,
[00:53:36.560]but I don't know if that will be effective at all,
[00:53:41.050]but much less whether it's something
[00:53:42.730]that people want to get involved with.
[00:53:44.100]But I think understanding why things work the way they work
[00:53:46.730]for consumers is incredibly important.
[00:53:49.960]And then having the groups that maybe aren't always aware
[00:53:54.030]understand how things work and why they work that way
[00:53:57.410]as a way to start a broader conversation,
[00:53:59.850]especially we have a big development conference
[00:54:02.810]coming up at the ITU next year,
[00:54:05.660]the World Telecommunications Development Conference.
[00:54:08.820]And certainly that's an important part of it
[00:54:11.190]is the digital divide.
[00:54:13.420]And I would like to just bring up one thing.
[00:54:16.600]We're very excited today because we have
[00:54:18.810]a US candidate for secretary-general of the ITU
[00:54:23.110]who was announced today, Doreen Bogdan-Martin,
[00:54:26.290]and so she was just announced today,
[00:54:28.390]and we are, I think Jennifer and I can both say
[00:54:33.400]we're ecstatic to have a really competent US candidate
[00:54:38.110]who's ready to take the ITU into the future.
[00:54:40.810]So I did want to share that.
[00:54:42.140]Jennifer, you may want to say something on that as well.
[00:54:46.880]I just echo that she currently serves
[00:54:49.690]as the director of the development sector,
[00:54:53.980]and for those who may follow the ITU,
[00:54:58.090]she won that role by election two years ago
[00:55:04.550]in a bureau of that role,
[00:55:07.230]which has always been held by a developing country,
[00:55:10.310]and she won it in the first round.
[00:55:13.800]So she did not have to go through multiple rounds.
[00:55:16.140]So it was tremendous
[00:55:21.620]support from governments all around the world,
[00:55:24.760]reflecting the quality of the individual.
[00:55:27.565]And so we're very excited and hope
[00:55:30.005]that that will be the same result.
[00:55:32.379]She has a few people that have announced
[00:55:35.140]that are running again,
[00:55:37.720]one Russian internet person and candidate.
[00:55:42.840]And I can't remember the other person,
[00:55:44.500]so we may edit this part out,
[00:55:46.711]but it's very exciting.
[00:55:51.583]Anyway, I'll turn it back,
[00:55:52.790]'cause I know we have some questions in the chat box.
[00:55:56.070]Yeah, thank you so much.
[00:55:57.830]To turn maybe to audience Q&A
[00:56:00.650]and a few other hot button issues.
[00:56:04.260]So one question is on the issue of
[00:56:06.901]cybersecurity for satellites or hacking of satellites.
[00:56:11.180]And does there need to be a stronger
[00:56:13.820]regulatory framework for that?
[00:56:15.860]I think the Satellite Industry Association
[00:56:17.690]has done some work on that issue as well,
[00:56:20.180]but get your comments on that.
[00:56:21.680]And to put one more out there,
[00:56:24.940]another questioner was wondering
[00:56:26.880]or thought that the International Standards Organization,
[00:56:30.510]the ISO, was getting involved in
[00:56:33.272]space debris mitigation standards.
[00:56:37.300]And so if you had any thoughts on whether
[00:56:40.040]ISO might play a useful role.
[00:56:46.810]I can address the cyber.
[00:56:47.910]I don't know about ISO, so sorry about that.
[00:56:51.150]I don't know if Jennifer does.
[00:56:53.300]On cyber, I just came off a call.
[00:56:56.830]I'm part of the SISA Space Infrastructure Working Group.
[00:57:02.410]In terms of hacking,
[00:57:07.440]I mean, personally,
[00:57:08.273]I don't know how much of a concern that is,
[00:57:10.640]but I will tell you that the NIST Cybersecurity Framework
[00:57:13.600]of course include satellite.
[00:57:15.620]And when I talked to our cyber people in the company,
[00:57:19.120]I think a lot of what we do for cyber to protect against it,
[00:57:23.760]attacks and so forth are the same thing
[00:57:25.500]terrestrial folks do.
[00:57:27.520]But SISA and DHS are very active right now
[00:57:31.280]at looking what special things have to be done
[00:57:33.510]for satellite, so I do expect something.
[00:57:35.760]There's actually a NIST report out for comment
[00:57:39.000]that's due, I want to say on the 13th,
[00:57:42.040]on satellite and cybersecurity.
[00:57:43.670]They did a report, and of course,
[00:57:46.430]you have the space policy directives
[00:57:49.120]that call for cybersecurity work.
[00:57:51.010]So I think it's ongoing work.
[00:57:53.290]I do think that companies, I can say personally,
[00:57:56.990]are very focused on this and very concerned
[00:57:59.360]and are very keyed into this
[00:58:01.570]and look forward to working with the government
[00:58:03.320]on taking any other actions.
[00:58:04.810]So Jennifer, I'll turn it over to you
[00:58:06.080]for anything else on that or ISO.
[00:58:08.760]Yeah, on the ISO, I appreciate the participant
[00:58:12.380]putting the link in there.
[00:58:14.850]I'm not as familiar with that.
[00:58:18.280]I do know that in some recent policymaker conversation,
[00:58:26.380]there's been a question about whether or not
[00:58:28.850]a standards body ought to be
[00:58:31.270]the defacto kind of center for
[00:58:34.690]developing a standard that would then be
[00:58:37.170]pushed out to the, shall we say,
[00:58:38.820]implemented to the ISO.
[00:58:40.160]I actually thought it was a NIST
[00:58:45.010]issue that they were raising,
[00:58:46.000]but I'm gonna take a look at that.
[00:58:47.840]So thank you very much.
[00:58:48.840]Unaware of that one.
[00:58:53.070]Great, and I think we touched on
[00:58:56.730]all the audience questions except one
[00:58:58.600]for spectrum for moon, but Jennifer,
[00:59:00.380]you had sort of mentioned that in the context of ITU,
[00:59:03.330]whether ITU was purely for
[00:59:05.690]earthly-based communications or not,
[00:59:09.150]and I think they were just wondering
[00:59:10.650]if you had a prediction for that or not,
[00:59:13.560]how the ITU would address it.
[00:59:15.237]And if you want to give a prediction, that's fine.
[00:59:18.500]Otherwise we can wrap up.
[00:59:21.910]I've never known an institution
[00:59:23.620]that doesn't accept new responsibilities.
[00:59:25.930]So I would anticipate that through some process or another,
[00:59:30.130]the ITU will end up with such jurisdiction.
[00:59:34.580]Great.
[00:59:35.440]Well, Jennifer Manner, thank you so much.
[00:59:38.440]Jennifer Warren, thank you so much.
[00:59:40.400]This is once again just an incredibly rich discussion.
[00:59:43.330]And I know I always learn just a ton
[00:59:45.481]hearing from you on these issues,
[00:59:48.540]and I know the audience did as well
[00:59:50.220]and Endeliza as well.
[00:59:51.900]So thank you, thank you once again.
[00:59:54.970]For those of you attending,
[00:59:56.940]we will have an Artemis Accord session on Thursday
[00:59:59.890]and then a National Security Space session
[01:00:02.201]on Friday to conclude the week.
[01:00:04.130]And of course, yesterday's ASIL
[01:00:06.430]World Speaks Space Africa session was terrific too.
[01:00:09.850]So thank you to everybody.
[01:00:11.970]Thank you, Endeliza, thank you, Jennifer Manner,
[01:00:14.310]thank you, Jennifer Warren.
[01:00:15.340]Really appreciate it.
[01:00:16.260]Have a great rest of the night or day,
[01:00:18.420]depending on where you're at.
[01:00:20.192]Thank you.
[01:00:21.181]Thank you, bye.

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Nebraska Virtual Space Law Week - Spectrum and Space: Future Challenges and Opportunities

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