Nebraska Virtual Space Law Week - Commercial Space: What's Next for Regulatory Reform?

jredwine2 Author

10/12/2021 Added

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Opening panel for Nebraska Virtual Space Law Week 9/27/2021. Panelist Allison Crutchfield and Caryn Schenewerk discuss Commercial Space and Regulatory Reform.

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[00:00:00.550]Well, good afternoon, everybody,
[00:00:01.760]welcome to the University of Nebraska's
[00:00:04.120]College of Law, 14th annual Washington, DC, Space Law.
[00:00:07.500]And of course,
[00:00:08.333]we're not in Washington, DC, in person,
[00:00:09.630]as we were for our first 12,
[00:00:11.710]this is a online Space Law Week again this year,
[00:00:15.050]and do hope
[00:00:15.883]and plan to be back in person
[00:00:17.890]in Washington, DC, next year.
[00:00:21.580]This session will be off the record,
[00:00:24.370]so if there's any media in the room,
[00:00:26.370]this session is completely off the record.
[00:00:29.810]There's gonna be an opportunity
[00:00:30.643]for audience questions and answers.
[00:00:33.300]Today, we're focused on commercial space
[00:00:35.340]and what's next for regulatory reform.
[00:00:38.820]And we're really honored to be joined by Caryn Schenewerk,
[00:00:42.700]vice president for Regulatory
[00:00:44.190]and Government Affairs at Relativity Space.
[00:00:47.090]Caryn spent...
[00:00:48.720]Prior to Relativity Space...
[00:00:51.460]Spent 10 years at SpaceX.
[00:00:54.130]Lastly, a senior counsel
[00:00:55.380]and senior director of space flight policy at SpaceX.
[00:00:59.210]Also, honored to be joined by Allison Crutchfield,
[00:01:02.930]current senior manager for regulatory affairs at SpaceX,
[00:01:08.070]both Caryn and Allie bring a wealth of experience
[00:01:11.000]on these issues,
[00:01:13.020]and we're gonna have a great discussion
[00:01:15.190]and learn lots.
[00:01:16.710]So with that,
[00:01:18.770]again, just a reminder
[00:01:20.530]that the session is off the record.
[00:01:22.760]I'll turn first to Caryn.
[00:01:24.017]Caryn, maybe we'll start with a big broad question,
[00:01:26.190]what direction...
[00:01:27.260]The Biden administration has been in office
[00:01:28.830]basically eight months now,
[00:01:30.880]what direction is the Biden administration
[00:01:32.930]taking with respect to commercial space reform?
[00:01:36.560]Yeah, so I think...
[00:01:37.750]First, I wanna thank you for hosting this forum today,
[00:01:40.910]and for inviting me to participate.
[00:01:42.900]It's actually one of my favorite Space Law conversations
[00:01:45.530]of the year that usually occurs,
[00:01:47.029]and Nebraska does a really wonderful job
[00:01:49.670]of pulling together really interesting people
[00:01:52.060]about interesting topics,
[00:01:53.280]and I'm honored to be included in that role,
[00:01:56.909]that lineup, I guess.
[00:02:00.090]But to your question, Matt,
[00:02:01.480]about the Biden administration,
[00:02:03.220]first, I think I wanna highlight a couple of things is,
[00:02:06.330]one, continuity.
[00:02:07.710]So I'm seeing the conversation
[00:02:10.180]highlight continuity with some of the efforts
[00:02:12.410]that occurred in the last administration
[00:02:14.430]with regard to promoting commercial space
[00:02:16.760]and the engagement with commercial space
[00:02:18.630]across all three sectors, right?
[00:02:20.560]So across the national security sector,
[00:02:22.860]the civil space sector,
[00:02:25.640]and then, of course,
[00:02:26.473]promoting purely commercial activities,
[00:02:27.970]and the importance of the economic benefits
[00:02:30.710]and the benefits to civil
[00:02:31.860]and national security, right?
[00:02:32.910]That whole...
[00:02:35.380]Very healthy relationship
[00:02:37.080]that happens between those two,
[00:02:38.130]and the symbiosis.
[00:02:40.630]The thing that I think is also great
[00:02:42.290]that I'm seeing in the Biden administration
[00:02:44.220]is the awareness of the roll space plays
[00:02:47.600]in some of the other priorities
[00:02:49.340]that are bigger picture priorities for the administration,
[00:02:51.940]like climate change.
[00:02:53.440]So you're hearing more and more...
[00:02:56.060]The importance of that,
[00:02:57.340]and I do see that there's recognition
[00:03:00.090]that if you wanna understand
[00:03:01.240]what's happening with our climate,
[00:03:02.300]you need to be able to collect data on it,
[00:03:04.030]and space plays a very important role
[00:03:05.870]in that data collection.
[00:03:07.230]So that feeds on efforts
[00:03:08.400]that have occurred previously, right?
[00:03:10.030]With regard to remote sensing reform
[00:03:11.980]that we saw on the last administration,
[00:03:13.460]the importance of that effort,
[00:03:15.320]it builds on activities related
[00:03:17.380]to regulating commercial launch
[00:03:20.440]to facilitate more activities in space,
[00:03:22.750]conversations around the role of constellations in space.
[00:03:26.210]So I think
[00:03:27.043]that's an exciting piece,
[00:03:28.860]and awareness of the role
[00:03:29.970]that space plays
[00:03:30.803]that we're all encouraging that
[00:03:33.370]that be part of that climate change infrastructure,
[00:03:35.720]and then infrastructure would be the other one, right?
[00:03:37.830]So this idea around infrastructure
[00:03:40.250]and the importance of our space infrastructure.
[00:03:42.730]And then the other one that is really important
[00:03:45.470]to us at Relativity,
[00:03:46.500]and that I see part of the conversation,
[00:03:49.160]is around diversity, equity,
[00:03:51.230]and inclusion efforts,
[00:03:52.660]and stem education.
[00:03:53.790]And so seeing that conversation
[00:03:55.120]about the role of building those activities
[00:03:57.670]within the aerospace community,
[00:03:59.190]and it doesn't necessarily go to your question,
[00:04:00.600]that went on regulatory reform,
[00:04:02.340]it really goes to where's the industry going
[00:04:04.180]and how are we engaging?
[00:04:05.170]And what is the administration doing?
[00:04:06.980]But I actually think it goes to all of the above,
[00:04:09.750]because whether we're trying to answer the question
[00:04:12.580]of, "What should our future regulations look like?"
[00:04:14.457]"How should we tackle climate change?"
[00:04:16.427]"What does our economy look like in the future?"
[00:04:19.060]The more diverse opinions
[00:04:20.240]that we have to bring in to bear on that conversation,
[00:04:23.040]the better off we will be.
[00:04:24.510]And so I think it's...
[00:04:26.240]I really liked the holistic aspect of some of those issues.
[00:04:32.222]Well, I've worked with Caryn long enough
[00:04:33.680]to know better than to try to follow up something like that,
[00:04:37.000]but I do wanna echo all of it,
[00:04:38.260]starting with the appreciation
[00:04:39.810]for being included in this panel,
[00:04:42.390]and the week in general,
[00:04:43.670]but everything that Caryn just said,
[00:04:45.650]I couldn't agree more.
[00:04:46.483]What I appreciate is sort of the consistency
[00:04:49.270]and the stability
[00:04:50.350]that we saw from the previous administration
[00:04:51.990]into this administration.
[00:04:53.870]It's...
[00:04:54.703]We're taking it
[00:04:55.536]and running the industry is really...
[00:04:57.760]I think, in a good place in that way,
[00:04:59.810]we're not seeing major policy shifts,
[00:05:01.310]which is a great thing for all of the progression
[00:05:04.840]that folks have been making.
[00:05:06.410]So SpaceX
[00:05:07.867]and other companies
[00:05:08.760]are continuing to launch regularly
[00:05:10.750]and see success with the government partners.
[00:05:14.280]Great.
[00:05:15.420]Allie, Caryn mentioned in her answer,
[00:05:18.190]there was new launch licensing regulations,
[00:05:21.770]a new Part 450,
[00:05:23.980]for those looking for a citation,
[00:05:26.040]that was released about a year ago,
[00:05:27.470]in fact, this panel,
[00:05:29.070]about a year ago, it had...
[00:05:30.620]The 785 pages had been released,
[00:05:33.030]I think, just 24 hours before the panel,
[00:05:35.570]and Caryn and Audrey with blurry eyes had read a lot,
[00:05:38.460]and we got a lot of insights from them,
[00:05:40.170]but now, that it's been a year,
[00:05:42.190]and the regulations are in operation,
[00:05:45.150]just wanted to get your views,
[00:05:46.410]overall, on how the new Part 450 is working,
[00:05:50.230]how that regulatory reform effort is working.
[00:05:53.650]Oh, yeah, I remember that day
[00:05:54.483]and that week fondly, I think.
[00:05:58.290]The reform was a long time coming,
[00:05:59.970]I think we're all really grateful
[00:06:02.300]and excited to put it to use,
[00:06:04.190]it solved a lot of problems,
[00:06:06.020]and created a lot of opportunity.
[00:06:08.490]In general, I would say the FAA itself
[00:06:10.540]has shown itself to be a really fantastic
[00:06:13.240]organization this year,
[00:06:15.380]just the way they've been able to navigate
[00:06:17.210]working with the previous regs,
[00:06:18.450]and in the current regs,
[00:06:19.450]it's been really impressive.
[00:06:21.090]SpaceX tends to be pushing,
[00:06:24.470]on the cutting edge,
[00:06:25.470]and AST and the commercial space office has worked with us,
[00:06:29.450]I would say, tirelessly,
[00:06:30.640]to make sure that we're able to use
[00:06:33.210]the new regulations in a way
[00:06:34.670]that they were...
[00:06:37.270]They were born to be performance-based,
[00:06:40.600]but also, in a way that fits every company,
[00:06:43.360]and they're really helping us navigate that,
[00:06:45.210]so I think it shows a lot
[00:06:47.360]that their commitment has been so great,
[00:06:49.110]the regs themselves are certainly better,
[00:06:52.140]they have created an opportunity,
[00:06:53.127]you're no longer trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
[00:06:56.910]And I'm just really grateful
[00:06:58.430]that the time has come for us to actually implement them.
[00:07:04.180]Caryn, thoughts on the (indistinct)?
[00:07:06.960]Yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:08.900]So, I agree,
[00:07:10.630]it's interesting to watch these regulations
[00:07:12.700]that we worked so hard to foster early on.
[00:07:17.685]The thing that's interesting to see at Relativity now
[00:07:20.470]is that we're working towards our first launch
[00:07:22.350]of our Terran 1 launch vehicle
[00:07:24.080]at the beginning of next year.
[00:07:25.940]And so we made a decision like this last year
[00:07:30.280]to pivot from original efforts
[00:07:32.780]to license under 415, 417, to 450,
[00:07:36.103]that we would start there just because
[00:07:38.540]that's where we're all going to end up, right?
[00:07:40.440]So it's been an interesting experience to start at 450,
[00:07:46.020]to work with the...
[00:07:46.853]Especially with these smaller vehicles,
[00:07:49.470]so the blast danger area is smaller,
[00:07:51.840]the con ops are a little more...
[00:07:54.040]Are kind of on the simpler side for Pathfinder,
[00:07:58.170]and so it's been a really good experience so far
[00:08:02.330]in working with FAA.
[00:08:04.140]What I will say is that we are finding
[00:08:06.490]some challenges along the way,
[00:08:07.907]and I'll refer any students
[00:08:11.265]that are watching this,
[00:08:12.560]or any folks that wanna really understand these issues
[00:08:15.820]to the dockets
[00:08:16.740]and the comments
[00:08:18.500]that were filed with regard to 450
[00:08:21.450]during the comment period,
[00:08:22.700]both the...
[00:08:23.660]In the original
[00:08:24.493]and then through...
[00:08:25.326]You'll see ex parte filings, et cetera.
[00:08:27.190]And some of the things
[00:08:28.360]that we commented on during that period,
[00:08:30.050]like the conditional expected casualty issues,
[00:08:32.210]the softboard issues,
[00:08:33.980]we didn't miss the mark in highlighting
[00:08:36.550]that those might be things
[00:08:37.393]that would pose challenges,
[00:08:39.120]and I'm hearing that from other folks in industry as well,
[00:08:42.070]just because they're a little bit different
[00:08:43.780]or a little bit new,
[00:08:44.720]and so that iterative period
[00:08:47.580]where we're trying to understand exactly what it is,
[00:08:49.320]where the FAA is learning,
[00:08:50.640]where we're learning,
[00:08:51.473]and we're working together to get through...
[00:08:54.810]Get through licensing under those challenges,
[00:08:56.970]is it's happening.
[00:08:58.890]I will consistently commend the FAA,
[00:09:01.190]and Wayne Monteith
[00:09:02.730]and his leadership in working to solve those with us.
[00:09:07.030]We're seeing that they're...
[00:09:07.920]They're continuing to play
[00:09:08.790]that very important role of partnering with industry
[00:09:12.140]to always pursue the right, safe answer,
[00:09:15.760]but also to try
[00:09:16.770]and get us an answer, right?
[00:09:18.760]So we're seeing that actively happen
[00:09:21.490]and that's commendable.
[00:09:23.660]And I know it's a challenge for both of us right now.
[00:09:27.470]Right.
[00:09:28.340]Well, maybe delving into specific issues
[00:09:31.100]within the launched licensing reform effort,
[00:09:34.530]and Caryn, you've got us under underway already,
[00:09:37.230]but one topic we discussed last year
[00:09:40.220]was advisory circulars,
[00:09:42.360]and there was some disappoint by industry
[00:09:44.070]that more advisory circulars
[00:09:45.810]hadn't come out as ways to comply
[00:09:48.120]with these new performance-based standards,
[00:09:50.430]and just...
[00:09:51.263]Where does that sit now?
[00:09:52.096]Have more advisory circulars come out?
[00:09:54.170]Is there more examples
[00:09:56.460]and guidance in advisory circulars
[00:09:58.330]on how to comply with some of the new requirements?
[00:10:01.370]Yes, there have,
[00:10:02.230]and they're continuing to be more released,
[00:10:04.580]kind of pretty actively, actually,
[00:10:05.856]there's just a...
[00:10:07.260]And they're doing forums where
[00:10:09.770]they're working through the advisory circular
[00:10:11.480]so industry can attend those
[00:10:12.960]and engage in that conversation
[00:10:15.020]and ask questions about them.
[00:10:16.810]So one of the things...
[00:10:18.840]Like, the fact that we're talking about advisory circulars
[00:10:21.360]is good news to begin with, right?
[00:10:23.180]Because that means
[00:10:24.070]that they're trying to express to industry
[00:10:27.500]and engage with industry on means of compliance, right?
[00:10:30.440]So again, to kind of harken back to...
[00:10:32.390]For any students that are thinking about this, right?
[00:10:34.310]We have the statute,
[00:10:35.490]then we have the regulations,
[00:10:36.580]the statute takes it after Congress,
[00:10:38.070]the regulations takes the Administrative Procedures Act,
[00:10:40.580]which is not a minor undertaking, right?
[00:10:43.270]All that comment
[00:10:44.103]and publication requirements.
[00:10:46.810]And then we have the advisory circulars,
[00:10:48.470]which can actually be updated fairly regularly,
[00:10:51.270]like at any point when a new idea comes forward,
[00:10:54.650]and the FAA processes that,
[00:10:56.980]or a question comes forward,
[00:10:58.060]or they can publish a new advisory circular,
[00:11:01.430]and it's not subject to the Administrative Procedures Act.
[00:11:04.548]So that's really...
[00:11:06.150]That's good in the sense
[00:11:07.650]that they're putting things into advisory circulars
[00:11:09.980]that will help us comply with the regulations,
[00:11:12.170]or give us guidance on how to comply with the regulations,
[00:11:14.680]but also, it's an iterative process.
[00:11:17.370]So we're seeing that...
[00:11:20.000]We're seeing with the most recent approach,
[00:11:22.570]that as I can articulate it,
[00:11:25.070]is a desire to release a number of the advisory circulars,
[00:11:28.420]let us start working against those, right?
[00:11:30.930]Implementing those, referring to those,
[00:11:33.760]seeing how those apply under the regulations
[00:11:36.420]and to our activities,
[00:11:37.610]and then it's kind of an open comment period, right?
[00:11:40.350]At any point when somebody realizes
[00:11:42.340]that there's an issue with it,
[00:11:43.210]of course, you can bring it up
[00:11:44.260]through your licensing process with the FAA,
[00:11:46.610]but you can also submit more formal comments
[00:11:49.160]to the FAA advocating for changes,
[00:11:52.080]or for...
[00:11:53.330]Asking for kind of a letter-like ruling on it.
[00:11:56.920]But it's a much lower lift for changing
[00:12:00.320]than if it were in the regs.
[00:12:01.650]And I think, the originally...
[00:12:03.780]And I speak solely on behalf
[00:12:05.420]of my personal perception of this...
[00:12:08.490]Original, there was a lot of discussion around,
[00:12:10.510]they should be publishing these,
[00:12:11.700]they should be open for comment,
[00:12:13.260]and now, they've moved to an approach
[00:12:14.700]where they're publishing them,
[00:12:16.140]and they're foregoing publishing them for comment,
[00:12:18.830]like putting a draft out there, taking comments,
[00:12:21.730]and then finalizing,
[00:12:23.380]now, it's kind of going straight to final,
[00:12:25.470]but because of the way the advisory circular works
[00:12:28.010]in terms of the openness to ongoing comment,
[00:12:31.140]that gives me a lot less concern
[00:12:33.630]than some of the other experiences
[00:12:35.930]that we've had with...
[00:12:36.910]Where industry was voicing concerns
[00:12:38.610]about the timeframes for commenting
[00:12:41.060]on the regulatory process, right?
[00:12:43.347]And the speed
[00:12:44.260]and the intake of comments
[00:12:45.560]and the engagement with industry there,
[00:12:47.050]because this advisory circular process,
[00:12:50.280]you can talk to them at any point about it, right?
[00:12:52.290]It doesn't involve in filing ex parte notices,
[00:12:55.770]it doesn't...
[00:12:56.603]There's not a docket created
[00:12:57.940]and a formality around it.
[00:12:59.880]So I actually think it's good.
[00:13:02.610]I am pleased to see the speed
[00:13:05.120]with which they're tackling these advisory circulars,
[00:13:07.600]pleased to see some of the resource
[00:13:09.830]and increased resources
[00:13:11.050]that the agency is getting to do that
[00:13:12.688]in parallel with also licensing us,
[00:13:14.650]because there are a lot of folks
[00:13:16.500]coming through their doors right now,
[00:13:17.440]and so the more that they can put out advisory circulars,
[00:13:21.250]the more they can provide guidance,
[00:13:23.810]not on a one-off basis,
[00:13:25.090]but a more consistent across the board basis.
[00:13:28.400]Great.
[00:13:29.440]Allie, I wanted to get your thoughts on advisory circulars,
[00:13:32.480]and then also our next issue,
[00:13:34.410]which maybe you can kick off
[00:13:35.810]as well after advisory circulars,
[00:13:37.910]is the grandfathering issue
[00:13:41.600]that was in the new regs.
[00:13:42.630]We obviously had existing regs,
[00:13:44.070]existing launch licenses,
[00:13:45.105]I'm sure SpaceX was facing that,
[00:13:47.620]and so how grandfathering has worked out in practice.
[00:13:50.780]Of course, yeah, I will,
[00:13:51.780]I'll add to the advisory circular process,
[00:13:53.680]I am also pleased to see the insight
[00:13:57.710]that industry is allowed to gain
[00:13:59.490]by these educational sessions,
[00:14:01.050]and the fact that they are allowing industry questions,
[00:14:03.673]and I think that is shaping
[00:14:05.750]some of their responses along the way.
[00:14:08.250]I also commend them for tackling the media topics first,
[00:14:11.920]we're seeing a lot of flight safety, system safety,
[00:14:14.080]advisory circulars coming out,
[00:14:16.230]the sessions on those are quite intense.
[00:14:20.130]There a lot of questions,
[00:14:21.800]and I think that they've thought through
[00:14:23.210]all of those questions,
[00:14:24.043]they provided helpful answers
[00:14:26.090]and industry still feels comfortable
[00:14:27.610]being able to participate,
[00:14:28.860]and that's...
[00:14:29.693]Goes to what Caryn says,
[00:14:30.526]is when they're just going to finalize it,
[00:14:32.080]it is a bit concerning
[00:14:33.050]that we're being handed something
[00:14:34.400]that maybe...
[00:14:36.490]Could be perfected,
[00:14:37.500]and I think that we're on that...
[00:14:38.590]We're on a path to do that.
[00:14:40.470]In terms of grandfathering,
[00:14:42.264]I've thought that it has worked seamlessly.
[00:14:46.330]There are...
[00:14:47.250]As you mentioned, SpaceX is...
[00:14:50.430]That was a concern, right?
[00:14:51.500]We have multiple launch sites,
[00:14:54.340]we're flying Falcons,
[00:14:55.330]we're sending crew up
[00:14:57.373]and flying them back,
[00:14:59.137]and that's...
[00:15:00.230]Those were regular licenses
[00:15:01.140]that existed before.
[00:15:02.710]So I found that to be encouraging,
[00:15:05.550]but...
[00:15:06.383]And a new perk,
[00:15:07.260]is that some of the regulations,
[00:15:08.650]even though if you're set in that 415, 417, 431, 435,
[00:15:11.937]where I'm in the actual license itself,
[00:15:14.490]what you're gaining with the new regs
[00:15:16.460]is also some administrative burdens
[00:15:18.160]being alleviated by updates in
[00:15:21.830]the application procedure sections
[00:15:23.570]or to waivers.
[00:15:25.010]And that has been extremely helpful
[00:15:26.600]in terms of making each program
[00:15:28.770]a little bit more tailorable, right?
[00:15:30.560]To how they're regulated,
[00:15:32.580]when does launch begin?
[00:15:34.300]Do you need to waive something 60 days in advance
[00:15:37.110]if it doesn't have anything to do with public safety?
[00:15:39.100]Those kinds of questions
[00:15:40.000]are no longer taking up the agency's time,
[00:15:43.940]that could be spent looking at public safety,
[00:15:47.110]like actual public safety assessments.
[00:15:49.530]So I found it to be super effective, seamless,
[00:15:52.980]and I'm grateful for that because certainly,
[00:15:55.668]SpaceX has been able to operate
[00:15:58.290]just as it always has,
[00:15:59.320]while we work towards the new regs as well.
[00:16:02.450]That's great.
[00:16:03.283]So a lot of encouraging things here in the year out.
[00:16:07.450]What about on the larger goal
[00:16:09.080]of the reform effort to really shift from prescriptive
[00:16:13.660]to performance based?
[00:16:15.730]Do you think the bigger goal,
[00:16:17.580]the larger goal of performance based
[00:16:19.490]has been largely met?
[00:16:20.750]Caryn, and then we'll get Allie's views?
[00:16:23.790]So I think it's...
[00:16:26.860]I mean, this is definitely still a challenge, right?
[00:16:31.010]So we have our...
[00:16:34.080]The levels of safety
[00:16:35.300]that are the requirements,
[00:16:36.460]the high level requirements
[00:16:37.580]that we work against in the industry,
[00:16:39.470]and acceptable levels of risk.
[00:16:41.980]And then we have the things
[00:16:44.550]that we have to do to meet these,
[00:16:46.330]and I think,
[00:16:47.430]my answer is it's...
[00:16:49.260]It is a bit of a mixed bag, right?
[00:16:52.970]So we're seeing some places where...
[00:16:55.810]And there are different aspects,
[00:16:57.110]so it's kind of almost important
[00:16:58.710]to kind of highlight the fact
[00:16:59.543]that there are different aspects of our activities
[00:17:02.850]that are looked at,
[00:17:04.150]and they're not siloed because they're looked at together
[00:17:07.010]for our impact on safety,
[00:17:09.370]but they're looked at in groups, right?
[00:17:11.070]And you see these,
[00:17:11.903]like the segmentation that is in part 450, right?
[00:17:14.190]There's flight safety,
[00:17:15.100]there's ground safety.
[00:17:17.891]And the...
[00:17:20.530]Some of the changes to the rules have...
[00:17:24.720]How is it a place where it's a little...
[00:17:26.920]It still is...
[00:17:28.350]It still looks like the details sometimes
[00:17:30.820]are where we get bogged down,
[00:17:32.020]versus in the question of whether
[00:17:33.670]or not what you're doing overall
[00:17:35.300]as a system is achieving the level of safety.
[00:17:38.420]And I think that it's partly in this balancing act
[00:17:42.340]between shifting from what was the 415, 417 approach,
[00:17:46.630]and there's some good stuff in there
[00:17:48.180]that gave us some certainty, right?
[00:17:49.523]That was more prescriptive,
[00:17:51.040]but you knew if you did it,
[00:17:52.020]you were good to go.
[00:17:54.310]But now, with some of the new systems,
[00:17:56.020]and with some of the changes
[00:17:57.000]that we're seeing
[00:17:58.310]and the diversity,
[00:18:00.250]the performance space was meant to foster
[00:18:02.540]that diversity of offerings
[00:18:06.240]in the space transportation sector.
[00:18:09.340]And it seems as though we're still in that transition area.
[00:18:13.700]I don't...
[00:18:14.533]I think that there are some aspects of the regulations
[00:18:17.590]that we're seeing where we're saying, "Hmm,"
[00:18:20.136]like can that ever really look
[00:18:22.070]like a performance-based regulation?
[00:18:23.670]Or...
[00:18:24.503]And then there are other areas
[00:18:25.540]where I think we're seeing...
[00:18:27.090]What feels more like a,
[00:18:29.037]"Okay, once we all understand how we're operating
[00:18:32.710]and we get comfortable with these,
[00:18:34.690]then it's making progress towards that."
[00:18:38.060]And that, again,
[00:18:39.580]has to do with...
[00:18:41.050]There are people in the loop here, right?
[00:18:42.690]It's not just hardware,
[00:18:43.920]there are lots of people in the loop,
[00:18:45.170]and those people have...
[00:18:46.610]Past practice that they bring to bear on their experience,
[00:18:49.280]and that's true on both sides,
[00:18:50.440]the industry side,
[00:18:51.670]which says, "Well, but you've done
[00:18:52.830]it like this in the past."
[00:18:54.130]And the FAA side is saying,
[00:18:55.427]"Well, we've done it like this in the past."
[00:18:57.230]And in some cases,
[00:18:58.340]we're both right,
[00:18:59.173]and in some cases,
[00:19:00.006]we're both very wrong.
[00:19:02.010]And so I think it's...
[00:19:04.457]I think that the...
[00:19:06.770]Some of the right words are there,
[00:19:08.050]but we're gonna have to get our practice
[00:19:09.630]in line with that,
[00:19:10.470]and in some cases,
[00:19:11.530]the words are not there,
[00:19:12.720]and the regulations,
[00:19:13.630]we're probably gonna have to revisit a few things.
[00:19:16.170]So...
[00:19:17.237]And that's...
[00:19:18.070]Again, reverting back to the advisory circular question is,
[00:19:21.277]"Will we really address some of those
[00:19:22.700]as we continue to iterate on advisory circulars
[00:19:25.720]to help us get along that path?"
[00:19:29.840]Allie, your thoughts on whether performance-based
[00:19:32.251]has largely been met?
[00:19:35.460]I think my view is similar to Caryn's in a lot of ways,
[00:19:38.330]the one piece of that puzzle
[00:19:40.170]that's really important
[00:19:41.200]is the constant communication with the FAA
[00:19:43.950]throughout the process to make sure
[00:19:45.283]that we are...
[00:19:47.030]End up in the same place, right?
[00:19:48.340]As Caryn said,
[00:19:49.173]sometimes, we both have opinions,
[00:19:50.240]and I think both of them are right,
[00:19:51.790]and how do we make that work
[00:19:53.230]within the framework of the regulation
[00:19:55.290]which is meant to allow for that type of innovation.
[00:19:59.020]So that's the piece,
[00:20:01.740]is that staffing
[00:20:04.170]and bandwidth of the FAA is going to be...
[00:20:06.710]Continue to be a challenge.
[00:20:08.120]I think the launch rate
[00:20:10.270]and launch companies have quadrupled or something,
[00:20:12.250]don't quote me on that stat,
[00:20:14.200]but staff...
[00:20:15.220]But the staffing has been largely not to scale, right?
[00:20:19.240]So I do worry about bandwidth in the future
[00:20:21.970]because with a performance based system,
[00:20:24.810]it really takes the regulators understanding the system,
[00:20:27.270]not just checkbox,
[00:20:28.253]you will,
[00:20:29.086]and you met this reg,
[00:20:29.919]so I'm encouraged by the path we're seeing,
[00:20:32.970]but it's gonna probably take a lot more manpower
[00:20:36.350]on the side of the agency,
[00:20:37.790]which is...
[00:20:39.113]Also should've been addressed before,
[00:20:41.850]in my opinion,
[00:20:42.870]as the industry has grown.
[00:20:46.240]Thanks for raising that point.
[00:20:47.650]Yeah, I was looking back at it,
[00:20:49.440]there was one licensed launch in 2011,
[00:20:53.070]and I think there was 40
[00:20:54.770]or so last year. Yeah.
[00:20:56.650]And I don't know how many so far this year,
[00:20:59.270]and its predictions to obviously continue to increase,
[00:21:03.100]so that bandwidth
[00:21:03.988]and personnel point.
[00:21:05.880]Oh, yeah, and they're working their tails off,
[00:21:07.240]and they're making it happen,
[00:21:08.210]but at some point,
[00:21:09.710]that something's gonna give,
[00:21:10.543]and we're gonna need some extra help in that agency.
[00:21:13.540]Right.
[00:21:15.610]Well, let's move on to a new topic, Artemis Accords,
[00:21:19.530]so the Artemis program.
[00:21:24.360]Obviously, attached to that is the accords,
[00:21:28.310]these non-binding principles
[00:21:30.040]that are largely an elaboration
[00:21:31.730]of what we find in our Outer Space Treaty.
[00:21:35.140]But I was just wondering,
[00:21:37.370]commercial company's reaction to these principles,
[00:21:40.180]I guess, there's 12 countries
[00:21:41.350]that have now signed up to it
[00:21:43.160]with expectations of more to come aboard.
[00:21:45.670]And I remember in some of the early discussions,
[00:21:49.400]I think we had an Artemis panel last year,
[00:21:51.630]we may have even touched on it
[00:21:53.270]in this commercial panel last year, too.
[00:21:56.520]Some questions about inter-operability principle
[00:21:58.920]because...
[00:22:00.060]Will it stifle innovation if you're mandating
[00:22:03.152]or encouraging interoperability?
[00:22:05.990]But, of course,
[00:22:06.823]there's benefits to that.
[00:22:07.656]So just your thoughts
[00:22:08.740]and reactions to it.
[00:22:10.290]I guess, we'll start with Allie,
[00:22:11.160]and then turn to Caryn on the Artemis Accord principles.
[00:22:14.580]Sure.
[00:22:16.340]My thoughts on that,
[00:22:17.630]we're entering into a new era of settlements on moon
[00:22:21.810]and Mars, interplanetary life,
[00:22:26.150]to me, it's super exciting
[00:22:27.490]and encouraging to see other nations fostering that.
[00:22:30.810]What they're doing is actually showing us
[00:22:33.240]that they're taking it seriously as an imminent endeavor,
[00:22:36.340]and that to me is important.
[00:22:39.430]More important than exactly what it says
[00:22:41.700]is that we're thinking about it.
[00:22:43.300]And it is happening,
[00:22:45.050]and it's happening soon,
[00:22:46.290]so it's encouraging,
[00:22:48.420]and I would say,
[00:22:49.460]I would just...
[00:22:50.293]I'm proud to play a part of that a little bit
[00:22:51.670]with the SpaceX
[00:22:52.503]and the Starship vehicle program in general.
[00:22:56.757]Right, Caryn?
[00:22:59.510]Yeah, so, I mean...
[00:23:01.230]When I first started teaching
[00:23:03.950]commercial space law some...
[00:23:05.800]A couple of years ago now,
[00:23:07.980]I remember one of the conversations
[00:23:10.210]that often happens,
[00:23:11.170]and it happened, I remember,
[00:23:12.340]when I was first studying international law, right?
[00:23:14.230]Like what does it take to change a treaty?
[00:23:15.860]And what will be necessary to...
[00:23:18.210]We think changing the regulations was challenging, right?
[00:23:20.617]Like those of us who have studied international law
[00:23:22.620]know that treaties are like, whoa.
[00:23:25.380]So what would it take to update the Outer Space Treaty
[00:23:30.100]and the supporting treaties
[00:23:32.500]in order to foster some activities?
[00:23:34.160]And the Artemis Accords,
[00:23:36.400]I think, are in some ways...
[00:23:37.960]And I don't mean to oversimplify it,
[00:23:39.640]but an answer to that question
[00:23:41.830]in the sense that it's
[00:23:43.240]how do we not necessarily like change it?
[00:23:45.090]Right?
[00:23:45.923]Because I don't think they obviously don't change it,
[00:23:47.700]but how do we look at modern approaches to international...
[00:23:51.870]What are modern approaches to international agreements
[00:23:54.680]that set up this...
[00:23:56.150]Set up principles for cooperation?
[00:23:58.930]And I remember one of my students
[00:24:01.280]did a paper on the idea that,
[00:24:02.570]well, if you aren't going to update the treaty,
[00:24:05.070]then what would it look like
[00:24:05.940]to have a bunch of bilateral agreements?
[00:24:08.480]And I think that the Artemis Accords,
[00:24:11.640]to me, represent an important step in the idea
[00:24:13.710]that it could have been just bilateral, right?
[00:24:16.130]But it is a multilateral agreement
[00:24:18.230]that is targeted at fostering exploration
[00:24:21.610]and modernizing around some of the principles
[00:24:25.133]that were set up in the Outer Space Treaty
[00:24:27.720]and in the supporting treaties.
[00:24:28.970]And so I actually think it's
[00:24:30.243]a really encouraging step forward,
[00:24:33.400]and in the course of a business,
[00:24:35.780]and lots of people are in businesses like this,
[00:24:38.280]that are either...
[00:24:39.570]We're...
[00:24:40.530]You're often reacting rather than being proactive,
[00:24:44.040]I really appreciate the proactive nature
[00:24:46.580]of the Artemis Accords.
[00:24:47.880]And there are...
[00:24:48.990]Like the interoperability,
[00:24:50.220]going to be aspects of it
[00:24:51.063]that we're going to have to continue to revisit
[00:24:54.130]and to probably continue to iterate on
[00:24:56.030]and to bring industry voices
[00:24:58.750]and government together
[00:25:00.942]as we work through implementation,
[00:25:02.860]as we actually do the exploration
[00:25:05.910]that is fostered by the Accords.
[00:25:08.160]So I find...
[00:25:09.740]I have been in kind of a constant state of appreciation
[00:25:15.150]and awe of the fact that those...
[00:25:16.680]Have made such progress,
[00:25:18.590]that there was such kind of pursuit.
[00:25:21.070]I can't say Artemis Accords without thinking of Mike Gold,
[00:25:24.890]and the effort that he put in.
[00:25:26.030]And I...
[00:25:27.773]If he were here,
[00:25:28.650]he would be talking about all...
[00:25:29.969]The life that he gave up,
[00:25:31.890]that he's half as old as he looks
[00:25:33.630]because of the Artemis Accords,
[00:25:34.765]and I just wanna give him a shout
[00:25:36.470]for what an amazing effort he put in into leading that,
[00:25:39.220]and all the work that happened at NASA
[00:25:42.305]in the legal
[00:25:44.060]and policy realm there on the international side,
[00:25:46.200]and then also,
[00:25:47.360]among our partners at other nations
[00:25:49.596]that's engaged in that conversation,
[00:25:51.910]especially the very early conversations to really try
[00:25:54.200]and find something that would be successful in the longterm.
[00:25:57.610]So I think it's great,
[00:25:58.443]I think it's great
[00:25:59.276]that we continue to see countries joining those.
[00:26:02.810]And I think it'll be really interesting to watch
[00:26:07.920]how we see commercial space grow up
[00:26:10.040]in other nations as well,
[00:26:11.570]I mean, the boom in the United States
[00:26:13.500]is just absolutely remarkable, right?
[00:26:16.360]I mean, what's happening
[00:26:17.350]with the proliferation of companies
[00:26:19.450]that are looking to achieve things like going to the moon,
[00:26:21.780]going to Mars,
[00:26:23.820]asteroid...
[00:26:24.653]All of these things
[00:26:25.486]that we're doing.
[00:26:27.110]And if we see...
[00:26:28.850]If the Artemis Accords foster just a little bit of that
[00:26:32.757]in our partners,
[00:26:34.600]and foster a lot more of it
[00:26:36.180]in an international multilateral approach,
[00:26:38.350]then this will continue to go down as a huge success.
[00:26:42.060]Right.
[00:26:42.893]I should just mention,
[00:26:44.190]on Thursday, we actually do have an Artemis Accords panel,
[00:26:46.700]and Mike Gold will be there. Oh, good!
[00:26:49.551]On Thursday, so register for that,
[00:26:52.390]if you haven't already.
[00:26:53.840]Yeah, so there's the plug,
[00:26:54.930]for listening to Mike talk about the Artemis Accords,
[00:26:56.930]because he is the preeminent expert on it.
[00:27:01.900]And I just wanted to make the point,
[00:27:03.120]we've...
[00:27:06.070]Space law, some may think
[00:27:08.290]is this very narrow abstract field,
[00:27:11.160]but really, it can be viewed as a capstone course
[00:27:14.200]in a lot of fields,
[00:27:15.033]we've had Caryn
[00:27:16.410]and Allie take us through the administrative law
[00:27:18.960]aspects of space law,
[00:27:21.620]the international law aspects of it,
[00:27:23.690]so it really draws on a lot of other fields,
[00:27:26.480]and, of course,
[00:27:27.313]one of the principles in the Artemis Accords
[00:27:30.010]that's gotten a little bit of a blow back
[00:27:33.080]in certain quarters of the world
[00:27:34.550]is the property rights
[00:27:36.150]and extracted resources issue,
[00:27:39.060]although in reality,
[00:27:40.310]that's just longstanding U.S. interpretation
[00:27:42.850]going back to the seventies.
[00:27:44.910]Well, our next topic,
[00:27:45.880]one other topic at the international level
[00:27:49.010]is the Committee on Space Research,
[00:27:52.610]for short, COSPAR,
[00:27:54.310]is undertaking some reform efforts to try
[00:27:57.790]and move what some have called
[00:28:00.700]planetary protection standards,
[00:28:02.780]but maybe even back some debate
[00:28:05.720]that maybe it's better to use the OST language
[00:28:08.170]to avoid harmful contamination of celestial bodies,
[00:28:13.270]but COSPAR has long had standards out there,
[00:28:16.340]and, of course,
[00:28:17.173]they were developed in a scientific era,
[00:28:18.800]and as Caryn
[00:28:20.200]and Allie have taken us through,
[00:28:21.380]we're in a new era now,
[00:28:22.850]we're in a commercial area,
[00:28:24.417]a growing commercial era.
[00:28:27.400]And so just wanted to get your thoughts
[00:28:29.360]on where things stand in terms of COSPAR reform
[00:28:34.320]to update these so-called...
[00:28:36.350]If you wanna call them that...
[00:28:37.910]Planetary protection standards
[00:28:39.140]or harmful contamination standards,
[00:28:41.080]if you prefer,
[00:28:42.490]for this new commercial era,
[00:28:43.830]and we'll start with Caryn,
[00:28:44.710]and then get Allie's thoughts.
[00:28:46.810]Yeah, this actually is a topic
[00:28:47.980]that I'm...
[00:28:48.950]Been following,
[00:28:49.860]and look...
[00:28:51.450]For a number of years now,
[00:28:52.670]and I think it's...
[00:28:53.680]The progress here is also remarkable
[00:28:55.800]and really important.
[00:28:58.080]So...
[00:28:59.040]And I'll give Mike Gold another shout out here
[00:29:01.750]because he certainly was attentive to this,
[00:29:05.540]first, from the from the industry side,
[00:29:07.060]and then also when he was at NASA,
[00:29:09.150]and I was really pleased to work with him
[00:29:11.320]on the NASA regulatory
[00:29:12.920]and policy committee,
[00:29:13.940]along with some of the other really wonderful people
[00:29:15.970]that are part of our community in the space law world.
[00:29:21.240]And so one of the things
[00:29:22.580]that we looked at there
[00:29:23.620]was what NASA was doing, right?
[00:29:25.117]Because that was an advisory committee to NASA.
[00:29:28.730]But there has been a larger conversation
[00:29:30.474]that's happening at the academies,
[00:29:32.940]and I think it's a really important one around...
[00:29:36.540]We had a set of rules,
[00:29:40.250]so to speak,
[00:29:41.680]that were established by scientists for scientific purposes.
[00:29:46.020]And there's a lot of goodness
[00:29:47.510]and reason why they have...
[00:29:50.650]They were what they were,
[00:29:51.800]and have operated the way that they have.
[00:29:54.290]But it's an important time
[00:29:55.770]to look at the question of where we really are
[00:29:57.840]on the verge of human exploration to Mars,
[00:30:01.940]we're talking about permanent settlements on the moon.
[00:30:04.620]We have had companies,
[00:30:06.410]Moon Express being one of them,
[00:30:08.440]Bigelow is one of them,
[00:30:11.019]SpaceX being one of them,
[00:30:13.770]and who were looking at...
[00:30:15.430]Blue Moon with Blue Origin...
[00:30:18.550]Looking at putting human habitats,
[00:30:22.310]human rovers, human...
[00:30:23.890]Things that support human exploration
[00:30:26.100]and also sustainable presence on other planets,
[00:30:29.860]and so..
[00:30:30.910]Again, looking at the opportunity
[00:30:32.470]to be proactive instead of reactive,
[00:30:34.890]this is one of those topics where we don't...
[00:30:38.670]I would think that we have not achieved
[00:30:41.010]what we can in terms of bringing together
[00:30:43.910]academia, industry, scientists,
[00:30:47.110]and government to have a good conversation
[00:30:49.420]about how we have exploration,
[00:30:51.780]and we don't overly compromise science,
[00:30:53.850]but we also don't overly compromise you,
[00:30:56.695]that human exploration opportunity.
[00:30:59.750]And that we really try to work to...
[00:31:02.100]Like, what are the goals for these undertakings?
[00:31:04.740]And then how do we support those with policy and law?
[00:31:08.410]And so this is...
[00:31:11.010]The question...
[00:31:12.150]The Outer Space Treaty
[00:31:13.080]says that we should be avoiding harmful contamination.
[00:31:15.600]And that speaks to both forward
[00:31:17.120]and backward contamination, right?
[00:31:18.950]That we should be avoiding bringing
[00:31:20.750]some terrible disease back from space
[00:31:24.110]that could wipe out humankind.
[00:31:27.350]We also shouldn't be taking something
[00:31:29.610]to another planet where we make it unusable
[00:31:32.510]for the rest of humanity,
[00:31:34.380]or destroy its natural environment.
[00:31:36.650]And so...
[00:31:37.483]But that is not that we have to necessarily
[00:31:41.490]retain its pristine, specific,
[00:31:44.050]don't bring a single thing,
[00:31:45.090]'cause it's...
[00:31:45.923]That's impossible, right?
[00:31:47.270]I mean, I don't know about y'all,
[00:31:48.670]but I think we all have had a very important lesson
[00:31:50.920]over the last year on humans and contaminations,
[00:31:54.670]and how we contain ourselves,
[00:31:56.620]and the fact that we're just big,
[00:31:57.820]walking Petri dishes.
[00:32:01.090]And so I think that...
[00:32:03.360]I really appreciate that
[00:32:04.770]there's been put thought on this,
[00:32:06.030]and one of the big steps forward,
[00:32:08.410]and it's...
[00:32:09.243]It may not sound exciting to some,
[00:32:11.500]but it was a very important one,
[00:32:13.280]was the engagement with industry on this conversation.
[00:32:15.710]So just the fact that folks from industry
[00:32:17.680]were given a place at the table,
[00:32:19.270]and we're not talking about the lawyers
[00:32:21.760]from industry necessarily,
[00:32:22.790]though, also those,
[00:32:24.250]but engineers and scientists who are thinking...
[00:32:28.070]Want to pursue a sustainable exploration future, right?
[00:32:32.320]It's...
[00:32:33.850]Relativity and SpaceX,
[00:32:35.210]the two companies you have represented here
[00:32:36.940]are two companies who both have stated
[00:32:38.780]that Mars is a goal, right?
[00:32:40.420]That we want to see sustainable exploration of Mars.
[00:32:43.890]And that...
[00:32:46.430]Both of our company's goals
[00:32:47.910]would be completely undermined
[00:32:49.780]by an unsustainable exploration approach, right?
[00:32:53.180]Like if you make it,
[00:32:54.582]if you go to another planet
[00:32:57.210]and do something
[00:32:58.060]that undermines its ability to sustain life
[00:33:00.190]or to succeed in its own,
[00:33:01.890]that hasn't really achieved...
[00:33:03.200]That's not achieving the purpose.
[00:33:05.660]So I think that there is...
[00:33:07.790]I think that there is good attention
[00:33:09.330]to how we start balancing that,
[00:33:11.260]and how we start looking at human exploration,
[00:33:13.110]because it is important to note
[00:33:14.790]that the previous principles
[00:33:18.840]did not account for human exploration,
[00:33:20.620]they spoke to science.
[00:33:21.590]So what does it look like if you're gonna send a Rover?
[00:33:23.670]What are the parts per million in terms of microbes
[00:33:26.210]that could be on those?
[00:33:27.043]What did you have to do to irradiate those?
[00:33:28.750]And that's a different...
[00:33:30.130]That is a different conversation
[00:33:31.270]than a human exploration conversation, one.
[00:33:33.630]Two, it's also different when it's a government program
[00:33:36.710]versus a commercial program.
[00:33:38.520]And what does it look like
[00:33:41.970]if you're gonna impose those requirements
[00:33:45.140]that are government developed requirements
[00:33:47.310]on a commercial entity?
[00:33:48.830]And in the United States, right?
[00:33:50.390]There's notice and review and comment, right?
[00:33:53.830]So we can't just say
[00:33:56.330]that if you're gonna get a license from a U.S. entity,
[00:33:59.940]whether that's the FAA
[00:34:01.500]or whoever it is,
[00:34:02.333]and this pushes another button on who's gonna own
[00:34:05.850]licensing activities that go to another planet,
[00:34:08.900]but who might...
[00:34:09.733]Whatever entity that is within the U.S. government,
[00:34:11.940]we have to have...
[00:34:12.773]We have to be on notice,
[00:34:13.720]the commercial entity,
[00:34:14.960]of what requirements we have to abide by
[00:34:18.280]in order to be licensed.
[00:34:19.760]And right now, there aren't published guidelines
[00:34:22.970]or requirements that have been pulled down
[00:34:25.940]into U.S. law for commercial activities.
[00:34:28.860]So we have this big...
[00:34:29.770]We have the...
[00:34:30.610]The conversation, government to government, right?
[00:34:32.260]The COSPAR activities.
[00:34:33.910]Then we have the requirements
[00:34:35.120]that NASA has embedded in its requirements for its science.
[00:34:38.200]And today, I could look to those,
[00:34:40.560]like, for example, Moon Express did, right?
[00:34:42.350]Moon Express, in their payload review
[00:34:44.870]that went to the FAA,
[00:34:46.100]referenced the planetary protection guidelines at NASA
[00:34:50.020]for what they would do.
[00:34:50.860]Now, they were going to the moon,
[00:34:52.240]the requirements there are lesser than say, Mars,
[00:34:55.820]but it's not clear
[00:34:57.120]that they had to actually abide by those,
[00:34:59.570]they just chose to do that in order to try
[00:35:02.160]and get through the process,
[00:35:03.670]it is not something that is embedded in U.S. law.
[00:35:05.610]So we've got a lot of layers of aspects of this problem
[00:35:10.270]that we need to be solving for,
[00:35:12.010]again, hopefully proactively,
[00:35:14.260]but also holistically, right?
[00:35:16.620]Engaging all of the...
[00:35:17.750]All the key folks
[00:35:18.950]that are thinking about this
[00:35:19.860]in order to foster commercial
[00:35:22.234]and even government exploration here,
[00:35:25.940]because, again, from the U.S. perspective,
[00:35:27.590]so much of what we're doing
[00:35:28.500]is a public private partnership at this point,
[00:35:30.720]and capitalizing on those commercial capabilities
[00:35:32.850]will be key to our success.
[00:35:35.413]So (indistinct)...
[00:35:36.246]That was a lot,
[00:35:37.079]that was like gumbo of words.
[00:35:40.900]Allie, what are your thoughts on COSPAR reform
[00:35:43.480]and this issue of avoiding harmful contamination?
[00:35:48.318]I can't say anything
[00:35:49.613]that Caryn hasn't already said,
[00:35:50.737]and she said it better than I would,
[00:35:52.650]so I'll just leave it there.
[00:35:54.629]Sounds good.
[00:35:55.462]Well, let's jump to the issue
[00:35:58.040]of space traffic management,
[00:36:00.270]and space situational awareness,
[00:36:03.030]STM and SAA.
[00:36:05.250]And there was space policy directive three
[00:36:08.110]that had come out,
[00:36:10.240]and allocated it to the Office of Space Commerce.
[00:36:15.650]At the Department of Commerce,
[00:36:17.780]there is a longstanding debate,
[00:36:19.120]who should take over sort of the commercial aspects
[00:36:22.660]of space traffic management.
[00:36:24.730]And where do you see that headed?
[00:36:28.010]And where do you think that is today
[00:36:31.310]with space traffic management?
[00:36:33.150]And whether that decision to allocate it
[00:36:35.420]to the Office of Space Commerce will stay put,
[00:36:38.306]or whether there'll be further thought on that?
[00:36:44.140]I would say at the very least,
[00:36:45.592]it's well settled at this point,
[00:36:47.400]that regardless of who does it,
[00:36:48.850]it's going to get done,
[00:36:50.170]and so I appreciate that.
[00:36:52.240]Otherwise, my general thought process there
[00:36:54.320]is more data is good data as long as it's good data.
[00:37:00.020]Having a database
[00:37:00.853]that the industry can contribute to it is great,
[00:37:06.240]we love transparency,
[00:37:08.350]that's all helpful.
[00:37:09.960]And I think any mechanism
[00:37:11.720]for an owner of information
[00:37:13.170]and operators to upload their own data
[00:37:15.120]for everyone to use is always going to be a good thing.
[00:37:18.580]In weather data,
[00:37:19.470]for NOAA, is a good example of that.
[00:37:21.990]NOAA uses the model,
[00:37:23.040]and companies can tailor it to data for their own customers,
[00:37:26.650]and that's something
[00:37:27.483]that will be great to see,
[00:37:28.760]but as far as where it's gonna live,
[00:37:32.685]that's still an open question in my mind.
[00:37:36.360]Caryn, what are your thoughts?
[00:37:37.890]And, of course,
[00:37:38.723]there's the Open Architecture Data Repository,
[00:37:41.510]that a lot of people would like to see
[00:37:44.280]stood up in a more significant way as well,
[00:37:47.730]and I guess there's some funding issues connected with that.
[00:37:52.580]Yeah, so SPD-3 outlined a couple of key issues
[00:37:57.560]that are floating out there,
[00:38:00.840]for lack of a better phrase,
[00:38:03.370]with regard to space situation awareness
[00:38:05.997]and space traffic management,
[00:38:07.830]ownership of this novel...
[00:38:09.920]As SPD-3 called it...
[00:38:11.680]Activities in space,
[00:38:13.010]what have also been called
[00:38:14.030]the non-traditional activities,
[00:38:16.210]the mission authorization, AKA, AKA.
[00:38:19.650]And then also,
[00:38:22.448]an orbital debris, right?
[00:38:26.070]A policy that would be kind of a national policy
[00:38:28.180]for orbital debris,
[00:38:29.013]because we saw the FCC kind of get out
[00:38:30.840]in front of that issue,
[00:38:32.250]and so SPD-3 also addressed that.
[00:38:34.000]So there's a lot there,
[00:38:37.120]and it's been the question of who will own that, right?
[00:38:42.160]You've got, "Who will own mission authority?"
[00:38:44.127]"Who will own orbital debris?"
[00:38:46.290]The answer is kind of, "All of the above," right?
[00:38:47.760]Every space entity in the U.S.
[00:38:50.410]needs to have some kind of...
[00:38:52.470]Need to have consistent orbital debris policy
[00:38:54.480]has been the outcome from that,
[00:38:55.870]but commerce department
[00:38:57.960]is the mission authority under SPD-3,
[00:39:01.040]and SSA, STM.
[00:39:04.010]And as you noted,
[00:39:05.110]we've seen kind of a lack of funding so far there,
[00:39:07.460]I think they're...
[00:39:08.293]Most recently, have received $10 million
[00:39:10.090]to start moving that forward.
[00:39:11.700]And then we also have
[00:39:12.580]the pending congressional authorization,
[00:39:14.800]and we had kind of a divided answer on that,
[00:39:16.980]but then it seemed to...
[00:39:18.560]We've had...
[00:39:19.393]Now, it's a...
[00:39:20.750]There are more agreement...
[00:39:22.070]There's more agreement than division,
[00:39:24.150]but it's still not quite settled, right?
[00:39:26.720]We have not had an act of Congress
[00:39:28.290]that's gone to the president to adopt it
[00:39:30.200]and an answer.
[00:39:32.200]I think that
[00:39:34.040]that's what we need to have happened, right?
[00:39:35.790]Like, I think certainty here is...
[00:39:38.770]Certainty and progress are important pieces,
[00:39:41.930]and whoever that's going to be,
[00:39:45.139]it needs to be designated,
[00:39:46.620]and we need to start moving on it,
[00:39:47.810]because there are more
[00:39:48.643]and more interesting plans
[00:39:51.530]and solidifying plans around going to space
[00:39:55.640]and doing things in space,
[00:39:57.690]and the lack of...
[00:40:00.200]The piecing it together, right?
[00:40:01.850]Like Moon Express, right?
[00:40:03.180]Going to the FAA for the payload review,
[00:40:05.530]and referencing NASA's planetary protection guidelines,
[00:40:08.950]that's an example of,
[00:40:10.250]if this question were answered,
[00:40:11.610]they would have gone to the Department of Commerce,
[00:40:13.500]there would have been key guidelines,
[00:40:16.230]there might've been references,
[00:40:17.680]say to NASA's
[00:40:18.880]or to other requirements
[00:40:21.100]for conducting yourself in outer space
[00:40:22.880]that would have been then rolled
[00:40:24.330]through the regulatory process
[00:40:25.630]through notice and comment,
[00:40:27.130]and we just haven't had that.
[00:40:29.080]So we have this kind of sector of activities
[00:40:31.860]and plans that we're managing right now,
[00:40:35.360]but we're not managing them in the optimized way.
[00:40:40.010]So I kind of think of it...
[00:40:42.240]The company I'm at, right?
[00:40:43.250]I joined last summer,
[00:40:44.830]and I was around employee number 150,
[00:40:46.810]we're up to about 500.
[00:40:48.240]We're thinking a lot about how you scale a company,
[00:40:50.880]well, the country needs to think a lot,
[00:40:53.210]and get on the ball with how we scale our regulatory
[00:40:57.840]and processes here.
[00:40:59.230]And we've put out...
[00:41:00.420]We've got some really good proposals out there,
[00:41:02.290]and they could work,
[00:41:04.530]we just need to start getting them into implementation
[00:41:07.040]because you're seeing the scaling of the demand,
[00:41:11.290]but you're not seeing
[00:41:12.650]that scaling of government with that process.
[00:41:15.600]And I think the last thing anybody wants,
[00:41:18.100]no matter what their opinion is
[00:41:19.360]on where this stuff lives,
[00:41:21.290]is that it have a negative effect on the growth
[00:41:25.740]and the importance of the space sector
[00:41:28.690]in the United States, right?
[00:41:30.870]So I think that's...
[00:41:31.760]Those are some key issues
[00:41:32.970]that SPD-3 tried to answer.
[00:41:35.610]And what I've heard so far
[00:41:37.350]from the administration,
[00:41:39.060]the Biden administration,
[00:41:40.360]reverting all the way back to that first question,
[00:41:42.350]is that this is this...
[00:41:44.170]The plan that was put on SPD-3 is the plan
[00:41:46.010]that they continue to pursue,
[00:41:47.300]and plan to pursue.
[00:41:48.480]And we heard that...
[00:41:49.560]I heard that from Chirag on his...
[00:41:51.390]I think, second day or something,
[00:41:54.266]with the National Space Council
[00:41:56.060]when he was at National Space Symposium.
[00:41:59.870]And that that's our intent.
[00:42:02.320]And, again,
[00:42:03.690]supportive of an approach
[00:42:05.100]that moves the ball forward on this,
[00:42:06.940]and that gets us to a good place
[00:42:09.490]where we have some certainty around who we're going to,
[00:42:12.610]and then that implements it in a way
[00:42:14.420]that is the way that we've all...
[00:42:15.890]I think, been talking a lot...
[00:42:16.880]To Allie's point about the collection of data,
[00:42:20.120]the availability of data,
[00:42:21.350]the ability to then digest that data
[00:42:23.670]and to start developing,
[00:42:25.490]say, rules of the road,
[00:42:26.610]so to speak,
[00:42:27.443]for space and for...
[00:42:30.050]How we engage with the government
[00:42:32.620]to get that authorization,
[00:42:35.680]and what continuing supervision looks like, right?
[00:42:39.640]As we progress with our activities in space.
[00:42:43.810]Right.
[00:42:44.699]And Caryn's really touched on the next question
[00:42:47.510]that we would have gone to,
[00:42:49.150]is the so-called Article VI issue,
[00:42:51.260]the OST obligation to authorize
[00:42:53.230]and supervise your non-governmental
[00:42:55.630]actors activities in outer space,
[00:42:57.290]and it doesn't require
[00:42:58.123]heavy handed supervision or authorization,
[00:43:01.130]it can be light touch,
[00:43:02.900]there's nothing onerous in the obligation itself,
[00:43:05.750]but as Caryn mentioned,
[00:43:07.420]we have authorization licensing procedures
[00:43:11.210]for launch and re-entries,
[00:43:12.610]we have it for remote sensing,
[00:43:15.290]and we have it for spectrum usage,
[00:43:18.950]but for you,
[00:43:19.980]on orbit activities,
[00:43:21.460]things like satellite servicing
[00:43:23.440]or lunar rovers,
[00:43:25.710]she mentioned the Moon Express issue.
[00:43:28.900]There's nothing concrete there,
[00:43:30.680]some take the view
[00:43:31.860]that the existing authorities can be utilized
[00:43:35.194]to take care of that,
[00:43:37.120]and up to today,
[00:43:38.960]they have been,
[00:43:39.970]but there's concern amongst others
[00:43:41.680]that there's really not a certain process there
[00:43:44.670]that would be useful to industry,
[00:43:48.480]and some concern over the legislative history
[00:43:51.200]to the 1998 amendments to the Space Launch Act,
[00:43:55.920]when FAA was given re-entry authority,
[00:43:58.770]it seemed like from the legislative history,
[00:44:00.770]they were not being given authority
[00:44:02.190]over the on orbit activities,
[00:44:04.320]so that's where things stand,
[00:44:06.090]and we've talked about it for a number of years
[00:44:08.410]and still no certain process there.
[00:44:12.890]Well, for the audience,
[00:44:14.810]please, you can use the Q&A function,
[00:44:18.530]and we can shift the audience questions here shortly,
[00:44:22.010]but while we're waiting on those to come in,
[00:44:25.970]I thought...
[00:44:27.670]Caryn and Allie,
[00:44:28.580]if one of you,
[00:44:30.340]or both of you wanted to touch on
[00:44:32.180]just the general issue of public private partnerships,
[00:44:37.424]and whether you had thoughts on
[00:44:40.810]kind of how that's evolved over time,
[00:44:43.341]and where it's headed,
[00:44:44.800]and that's obviously gonna be important
[00:44:46.240]for programs like Artemis
[00:44:47.934]and many others.
[00:44:50.770]Well, Caryn, go ahead.
[00:44:52.653]Sure.
[00:44:53.486]and I just...
[00:44:54.319]I think, one of the things I wanna add to the...
[00:44:57.820]To what's gonna be your last question about...
[00:44:59.540]You gave us credit for answering it,
[00:45:03.594]but I just wanna...
[00:45:05.160]I kind of really...
[00:45:05.993]Wanna really make the point,
[00:45:09.900]and maybe triple down on it if I have to,
[00:45:12.640]that there are some really interesting, exciting,
[00:45:18.710]technologies being pursued
[00:45:20.390]and developed right now.
[00:45:21.970]And those technologies have the...
[00:45:25.270]Offer answers to some of the other challenging questions
[00:45:28.770]like orbital debris, right?
[00:45:30.650]And things like refueling satellites on orbit,
[00:45:35.630]what does it look like?
[00:45:36.540]One of my favorite class questions
[00:45:38.010]is, "What does it look like
[00:45:38.843]if somebody launches into orbit?"
[00:45:40.170]And there's, "It's human space flight
[00:45:41.700]and they get stranded,
[00:45:43.070]who goes and gets them?"
[00:45:44.110]Right?
[00:45:44.943]"Is it the coast guard of space?"
[00:45:46.710]Those kinds of solving problems
[00:45:48.090]around rendezvous proximity operations,
[00:45:51.630]there's some really interesting technologies being pursued,
[00:45:54.050]and they do offer like
[00:45:56.530]some really important answers, potentially,
[00:45:58.560]to some of the challenges
[00:45:59.420]that we're also addressing with SSA and STM,
[00:46:02.500]and with orbital debris policies,
[00:46:04.070]and those are some of the technologies
[00:46:05.990]that are getting caught up,
[00:46:07.000]very much in this question of who do they go to?
[00:46:10.530]Who authorizes and provides
[00:46:12.050]the continuing supervision for those activities?
[00:46:14.950]So it's kind of like this
[00:46:16.920]like circle of problems
[00:46:19.300]where it's like,
[00:46:20.133]"Well, who's gonna do that?"
[00:46:20.966]"Well, if we had this,
[00:46:21.799]then we could do that,
[00:46:22.632]but we can't do that because this person..."
[00:46:23.600]Like we don't have that authority yet.
[00:46:25.291]So when we first started
[00:46:27.810]talking about this,
[00:46:28.643]to your point,
[00:46:29.500]many years ago,
[00:46:30.370]I think it was one of the early topics
[00:46:32.090]that I got...
[00:46:33.010]That I was invited to discuss
[00:46:35.450]as part of your forum with with Nebraska,
[00:46:38.910]we were still like,
[00:46:39.743]"Oh, there's some thoughts about these things,"
[00:46:41.650]but they weren't right there,
[00:46:43.540]they weren't launching,
[00:46:44.450]they weren't being tested in orbit at that point.
[00:46:47.150]And we said that,
[00:46:47.983]"Well, we need to solve these things,
[00:46:48.930]but we should be proactive about it,
[00:46:50.820]it shouldn't be reactive."
[00:46:52.360]Like we are past that point now,
[00:46:54.070]in my opinion, we need...
[00:46:55.365]This problem really needs to be solved
[00:46:57.890]because we really want these technologies
[00:46:59.740]to be developed
[00:47:00.573]and to succeed in the U.S.,
[00:47:01.794]from the U.S.,
[00:47:02.627]and by U.S. companies,
[00:47:04.040]they will benefit our national security,
[00:47:05.840]they will certainly benefit our civil space activities,
[00:47:08.290]and they will benefit humanity across the board,
[00:47:11.470]regardless of where they're happening from.
[00:47:13.460]And so that...
[00:47:14.460]I really think that to the extent
[00:47:16.280]that folks are thinking about this issue
[00:47:18.190]and engaging in any kind of advocacy around it,
[00:47:20.750]supporting...
[00:47:22.320]Congress supporting the administration
[00:47:24.060]taking action on it is...
[00:47:25.510]Has become really important at this point.
[00:47:28.200]And it's been interesting
[00:47:29.940]to be somebody who early on was like,
[00:47:31.347]"Ah, we've got some time here,
[00:47:32.610]I think there are paths to..."
[00:47:34.017]No, we're past that,
[00:47:34.970]like, time has come,
[00:47:35.980]we need to solve this.
[00:47:37.220]So I just wanted to give that as a point
[00:47:39.000]because I see that...
[00:47:41.200]I see it as impacting our ability to pursue
[00:47:45.010]really important outcomes at this point.
[00:47:46.860]And I don't say that on behalf of my company,
[00:47:48.410]more on behalf of the industry,
[00:47:49.840]and...
[00:47:50.760]Customers that my company would like to have,
[00:47:52.870]partners that we would like to have,
[00:47:54.710]and so...
[00:47:55.543]And then to your point about...
[00:47:56.440]So I'll transition
[00:47:57.273]that to public private partnerships,
[00:47:59.120]those are also examples
[00:48:00.570]of public private partnerships, right?
[00:48:02.090]So if there is a national security
[00:48:05.190]intelligence satellite in orbit,
[00:48:08.230]it will be, potentially,
[00:48:09.440]a commercially developed capability
[00:48:11.180]that will go up
[00:48:12.013]and refuel that satellite, right?
[00:48:14.370]That will provide
[00:48:15.710]or that will purposely de-orbit
[00:48:17.380]that satellite so we know exactly where it went,
[00:48:19.410]and when it went there.
[00:48:21.550]And so...
[00:48:22.430]I think that that's where...
[00:48:24.380]Like the public private partnership is...
[00:48:26.540]There are so many pieces of it,
[00:48:28.040]one is how does the government
[00:48:29.280]do business with the commercial sector, right?
[00:48:31.900]So the COTS program,
[00:48:33.540]the Crew Program,
[00:48:35.070]what we're seeing...
[00:48:36.240]What the Artemis Accords is meant to foster,
[00:48:39.110]what we see on the national security side,
[00:48:41.250]but it's also what the commercial sector is fostering
[00:48:44.370]and how the government regulates
[00:48:46.380]the commercial sector to facilitate its activities
[00:48:50.200]in a way that then,
[00:48:52.910]the government can go
[00:48:54.310]and take advantage of those, right?
[00:48:56.960]So we see...
[00:48:58.250]We're seeing such incredible investment right now
[00:49:01.250]in the private space sector, right?
[00:49:04.430]Relativity Space is a great example,
[00:49:05.687]SpaceX is a great example,
[00:49:06.980]we're seeing these companies
[00:49:07.960]that are going SPAC.
[00:49:09.200]We're seeing a lot of investment flow in,
[00:49:11.530]the thing that is...
[00:49:12.860]When you talk to investors,
[00:49:14.660]across the board,
[00:49:15.493]on any topic,
[00:49:16.326]one of the first things they ask about
[00:49:17.159]is the regulatory environment.
[00:49:19.080]So we need to continue to make sure
[00:49:20.710]that the regulatory environment is such
[00:49:23.000]that we can continue to succeed and foster,
[00:49:25.540]safely succeed, of course,
[00:49:27.100]but foster that innovation
[00:49:29.050]and the investment that's necessary
[00:49:30.550]to build that.
[00:49:32.910]Right.
[00:49:33.743]Well, a couple of questions coming in.
[00:49:38.490]So one line of inquiry is on...
[00:49:43.340]We do environmental impact assessments
[00:49:45.500]for things here on Earth,
[00:49:47.030]how would a environmental impact assessment
[00:49:50.150]work for a place like Mars?
[00:49:52.330]And should one be required?
[00:49:54.350]So that's one line of questions.
[00:49:56.120]The other line of question
[00:49:57.460]is on some of the expiring provisions in U.S. law,
[00:50:01.170]such as the so-called learning period,
[00:50:03.950]where there's a regulatory moratorium
[00:50:05.850]on FAA doing regulations to protect in...
[00:50:12.080]The participants in a flight.
[00:50:15.730]And that'll expire late 23,
[00:50:17.520]so in two years,
[00:50:18.460]and then, of course,
[00:50:20.460]there's also liability provisions
[00:50:22.610]that will expire,
[00:50:24.270]such as space flight participants
[00:50:25.860]being included in the federal cross waiver
[00:50:28.270]through the end of 2025,
[00:50:29.850]but these things which seem far away
[00:50:31.760]aren't so far away anymore,
[00:50:33.160]two to four years,
[00:50:34.430]we'll have some of these provisions expiring.
[00:50:36.800]So environmental impact assessment for Mars,
[00:50:41.420]one line of question,
[00:50:42.380]and then some of these expiring provisions in U.S. law,
[00:50:45.760]dealing with the learning period
[00:50:47.170]or liability issues.
[00:50:48.610]Allie, do you wanna take a crack at one of those?
[00:50:50.880]And then we'll turn to Caryn?
[00:50:52.930]Sure.
[00:50:54.260]I'm thinking more along the lines of
[00:50:57.660]the expiring learning periods
[00:50:59.100]and those types of things.
[00:51:01.410]The learning period has been going on
[00:51:02.850]for quite some time,
[00:51:03.930]and we're just now starting to actually learn,
[00:51:07.070]so an extension of those is my recommendation.
[00:51:12.050]We're just getting to the point
[00:51:13.400]where we're sending humans regularly into space,
[00:51:16.600]and what that means for definitions
[00:51:19.780]and capabilities on the vehicle,
[00:51:21.730]it's still very, very new.
[00:51:23.570]So there's talk of expanding those,
[00:51:26.830]and I think that's a great idea
[00:51:28.970]as we continue this process of learning,
[00:51:30.830]that's all companies,
[00:51:31.770]not just the company I represent.
[00:51:33.990]But in general...
[00:51:38.350]For environmental protection of Mars,
[00:51:41.950]I think COSPAR's research
[00:51:43.410]is going to be very helpful to that,
[00:51:45.000]but I also think
[00:51:45.833]that it needs to be focused,
[00:51:47.530]and it needs to be supporting endeavors
[00:51:48.920]that are actually occurring.
[00:51:50.410]So in my opinion,
[00:51:51.438]it's everything, both questions, right?
[00:51:55.150]Both the environmental of Mars,
[00:51:56.770]and the human space flight moratoriums and extensions,
[00:51:59.885]and those types of things.
[00:52:02.080]All of those are budding,
[00:52:04.870]but we need to move,
[00:52:06.460]we need to move much faster,
[00:52:07.690]because Caryn said that
[00:52:08.600]that future is here.
[00:52:10.820]These are things that are happening live,
[00:52:12.700]and oftentimes, we are reactionary,
[00:52:15.130]and we can't be in that position
[00:52:17.450]when we're dealing with the contamination of a planet
[00:52:21.720]or the risk of a person actually surviving there.
[00:52:27.740]Caryn?
[00:52:29.060]Yeah, so I have raised this question,
[00:52:32.920]and I think it's actually...
[00:52:33.970]It would be a great paper subject.
[00:52:36.320]So I will...
[00:52:38.110]I continue to keep it on my list,
[00:52:39.940]and what issues does it...
[00:52:41.670]What issues does it give rise to, right?
[00:52:44.690]So non-appropriation, right?
[00:52:47.990]Competitive advantages, disadvantages,
[00:52:50.220]so if we're projecting U.S. environmental law
[00:52:55.420]to another planet,
[00:52:57.510]what does that look like?
[00:52:59.310]How do you have any kind of certainty around it?
[00:53:01.360]Right?
[00:53:02.193]So part of...
[00:53:03.026]If you are familiar,
[00:53:04.120]and this...
[00:53:05.030]like my familiarity is specific to space launch
[00:53:08.470]and launch sites,
[00:53:10.340]but the...
[00:53:11.280]To which NEPA applies, right?
[00:53:12.680]So because we're licensed by the government,
[00:53:14.240]to the extent that you're launching,
[00:53:15.390]you're either doing a category exclusion,
[00:53:18.230]you're doing an EA,
[00:53:19.530]or you're doing an EIS,
[00:53:21.040]and aspects of that
[00:53:23.810]are our ability to categorize
[00:53:26.146]and characterize the flora
[00:53:27.760]and the fauna of the place,
[00:53:29.300]the actual...
[00:53:30.133]Do an impact assessment on the...
[00:53:31.387]And by the way,
[00:53:32.220]NEPA looks at the human impact, right?
[00:53:35.210]And so the human impact on Mars,
[00:53:37.760]well, how many humans are there yet?
[00:53:39.600]Right?
[00:53:40.433]So I think that there's probably...
[00:53:42.370]There's...
[00:53:43.240]My take on this,
[00:53:44.170]and again, not...
[00:53:45.030]In case one of my students is listening
[00:53:45.863]and wants to do the paper,
[00:53:46.970]I'm not gonna give you the answer
[00:53:49.090]or set you up too much,
[00:53:50.420]I don't wanna tell too much of the story,
[00:53:51.425]but I think that there
[00:53:53.320]are some really interesting questions there about,
[00:53:55.740]if you look at one,
[00:53:57.460]are there...
[00:53:58.293]Can you really draw good parallels there?
[00:54:00.710]Versus trying to set up as has been the discussion, right?
[00:54:05.210]Are there some areas...
[00:54:06.830]Would it be more appropriate to look at it as,
[00:54:08.927]"Okay, well, we have rules for what it looks like to..."
[00:54:11.067]"For a wildlife refuge."
[00:54:12.647]"We have rules for what is a park."
[00:54:15.417]"We have rules for wilderness."
[00:54:18.620]Are those kinds of characterizations in our...
[00:54:22.450]In what I'll call our environmental laws?
[00:54:25.440]Are those maybe more of a parallel
[00:54:27.720]than say, like NEPA,
[00:54:31.040]for looking at what we do on other planets?
[00:54:33.470]And then as far as the expiration
[00:54:35.820]of these dates,
[00:54:37.848]that whole thing is such a compromise,
[00:54:40.700]especially on the liability, right?
[00:54:42.230]We have the least generous liability insurance
[00:54:45.770]regime in the United States,
[00:54:47.830]vis-a-vis our competitors in other countries.
[00:54:50.490]And so the idea
[00:54:51.700]that we would make it less competitive
[00:54:54.380]for U.S. commercial companies in the international arena
[00:54:57.790]by changing the liability regime
[00:54:59.407]and the indemnification approach
[00:55:01.642]is like, I obviously think,
[00:55:05.040]not the right answer.
[00:55:07.975]And so...
[00:55:09.000]And then with regard to the addition
[00:55:11.330]to space flight participants in that,
[00:55:14.610]again, we have plenty of examples in the U.S.
[00:55:17.750]where we accept the risk,
[00:55:19.850]where we waive liability,
[00:55:23.150]you're engaging in super hazardous activities.
[00:55:26.110]All those people,
[00:55:26.943]if they're gonna do it
[00:55:27.897]and you don't wanna have a chilling effect on that activity,
[00:55:30.690]and you're not...
[00:55:31.830]And it's not about...
[00:55:32.663]Like, there's not a difference in terms of the safety,
[00:55:34.600]but it's...
[00:55:35.520]Then it seems to me like
[00:55:36.957]we should respect people's ability to choose
[00:55:39.770]to engage in such an ultra hazardous activity, be informed,
[00:55:43.250]and accept that risk,
[00:55:44.120]because it's not changing the requirement
[00:55:47.070]for informed consent
[00:55:48.180]or the accepted risk,
[00:55:50.090]it's really only about the idea
[00:55:51.680]that if you have a customer on board
[00:55:53.740]and that customer...
[00:55:54.573]That's gonna be a payload,
[00:55:55.542]not a person.
[00:55:57.010]And then you got a spaceflight participant,
[00:55:58.460]and you've got the launcher
[00:55:59.320]and you've got the government,
[00:56:00.610]that why would one of those entities
[00:56:02.960]not be involved in waiving the claims
[00:56:05.190]with all of the other entities?
[00:56:07.430]Because you're then gonna have a chilling effect,
[00:56:09.160]like somebody's not gonna wanna
[00:56:09.993]put their science experiment on
[00:56:11.540]with the space flight participant
[00:56:12.760]because the liability concern just becomes enormous.
[00:56:17.150]So I think the questions there still go
[00:56:20.300]to what are we trying to foster?
[00:56:21.690]And are we being really intellectually honest
[00:56:24.720]about the risk
[00:56:25.690]and the outcomes related to those?
[00:56:27.850]And that's a important question in these policy discussions.
[00:56:33.740]Great, yeah,
[00:56:34.600]and hopefully, Congress will re-up
[00:56:36.680]some of these provisions before they actually expire,
[00:56:39.210]sadly, historically, a lot of times they expire
[00:56:42.360]for a little bit before they're actually re-upped,
[00:56:45.000]and that creates some uncertainty,
[00:56:46.270]so I think both of your points,
[00:56:48.300]and Allie and Caryn's earlier points
[00:56:50.170]of showing leadership
[00:56:51.320]and really creating a environment
[00:56:53.093]that promotes U.S. to be leaders on the commercial side,
[00:56:56.990]which only benefits our national security
[00:56:58.960]in this areas is important.
[00:57:01.080]One last final question,
[00:57:02.270]and then we'll let you go,
[00:57:03.300]this can be a quick answer.
[00:57:05.250]It's a question specific to space traffic management
[00:57:08.780]and right of way rules,
[00:57:10.600]what sort of right of way rules
[00:57:12.300]should there be in space
[00:57:14.150]or are budding
[00:57:15.250]or being created now?
[00:57:17.200]I'll jump in real quick
[00:57:18.033]and just say that
[00:57:19.740]there should be some right of way rules,
[00:57:22.530]and those could be...
[00:57:24.030]Those can come about through industry standards,
[00:57:25.840]so we're talking a lot about industry standards
[00:57:27.950]in the industry right now,
[00:57:31.010]and that's...
[00:57:31.843]There've been some efforts underway
[00:57:33.270]with companies coming together
[00:57:34.790]to kind of comed up with
[00:57:36.150]what those rules of the road worry,
[00:57:37.570]that's how we...
[00:57:38.403]I mean, it seems like such a simple comparison,
[00:57:40.528]but for having turn signals
[00:57:43.270]and means of communicating between our cars,
[00:57:46.250]we could never operate on like the 6, 7, 8 lane highways
[00:57:49.930]that...
[00:57:50.763]Driving 65, 75,
[00:57:52.490]maybe 80 on an occasional day,
[00:57:55.120]miles per hour
[00:57:56.720]that we do without having way more
[00:57:58.740]incidents than we have, right?
[00:58:00.700]And so I think that
[00:58:02.800]that's the idea
[00:58:03.730]that we need to get to a place
[00:58:05.100]where we talk about maneuverability in certain orbits,
[00:58:08.270]or...
[00:58:09.103]And definitely, traceability,
[00:58:10.400]and have some consistency
[00:58:12.010]and some standardization across that
[00:58:14.680]will be a really good place,
[00:58:15.844]and it...
[00:58:16.720]This may be an instance where
[00:58:19.570]the government, again,
[00:58:20.590]with good engagement with industry,
[00:58:22.520]with good engagement with science
[00:58:25.140]and technology experts,
[00:58:27.080]come together to try
[00:58:28.140]and at least foster
[00:58:30.220]and facilitate that conversation,
[00:58:32.090]is probably a good thing.
[00:58:33.520]It definitely should not be
[00:58:34.850]a top-down dictated without engagement process,
[00:58:38.220]and it would be really great to see it be a bottoms up,
[00:58:43.470]grassroots effort by industry,
[00:58:45.590]but I think that it's a place where we're...
[00:58:47.480]Given where we are today,
[00:58:48.920]and what we've seen,
[00:58:49.753]the progress that I've seen,
[00:58:50.730]in my personal opinion,
[00:58:52.012]it needs some facilitating
[00:58:54.020]and mediation to get some traction.
[00:58:57.808](gentle chime)
[00:58:59.460]Allie, final word?
[00:59:01.450]No, I fully agree with all of that,
[00:59:03.350]my hope is that we can attack it from both angles, right?
[00:59:05.550]That we can come up with some industry standards,
[00:59:07.830]but in the meantime,
[00:59:08.744]the regulations that FAA has promulgated
[00:59:14.460]actually allow for more innovation
[00:59:16.760]to help avoid some of the space traffic
[00:59:19.920]and space junk,
[00:59:21.160]as it's called,
[00:59:21.993]so we can probably attack it from both sides.
[00:59:24.470]Great.
[00:59:25.510]Well, thank you so much.
[00:59:27.230]Both of your companies have been described
[00:59:29.340]as disruptive, fast paced and innovative,
[00:59:31.920]and so it's great to hear from the great lawyers
[00:59:34.930]that are helping companies innovate
[00:59:38.030]by making sure we have sound regulation.
[00:59:40.260]So thank you, Caryn,
[00:59:41.270]thank you, Allie,
[00:59:42.140]thank you for everybody out in the audience.
[00:59:44.710]And just a reminder
[00:59:45.780]that tomorrow is part of our
[00:59:47.580]American Society of International Law
[00:59:50.050]World Speaks Space Series,
[00:59:51.640]this time focused on Africa.
[00:59:54.510]It's also co-sponsored
[00:59:55.740]by the American Branch of the International Law Association,
[00:59:58.410]Space Law Committee as well,
[01:00:00.900]and then later in the week,
[01:00:02.400]we have spectrum issues on Wednesday,
[01:00:04.330]Artemis Accords on Thursday,
[01:00:06.210]and national security on Friday.
[01:00:08.750]So thanks again, Caryn,
[01:00:09.880]thanks again, Allie,
[01:00:11.140]really appreciate it.
[01:00:12.180]Have a great rest of... Thank you, very much.
[01:00:15.420]Thanks, so much,
[01:00:16.253]really appreciate it.
[01:00:17.460]Thank you. Thank you.

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Nebraska Virtual Space Law Week - Commercial Space: What's Next for Regulatory Reform?

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