WS5-DEI: Climbing out of the valley of despair
DEI: Climbing out of the valley of despair
Navigating cultural changes around diversity, equity and inclusion requires commitment and perseverance. We are not climbing a ladder - we are navigating a challenging terrain that at times includes bumps and deep valleys. In this session we will share experiences and draw inspiration from each other to stay the course and achieve our aspirations of higher ed as a model for the inclusive workplace. In this session we will discuss how the change management framework we apply to technology implementation can help us with our DEI efforts. We will share and learn from each others' experiences, draw inspiration, and together explore how we can chart our path in new ways.
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[00:00:02.780]Wonderful to be here with you all,
[00:00:04.680]and my name is Tracy Weber.
[00:00:06.220]I'm the senior director of Collaborative IT Services
[00:00:08.950]at the University of Notre Dame.
[00:00:10.950]And I will let my colleague, Nina, introduce herself.
[00:00:14.440]Good afternoon everyone.
[00:00:15.360]I'm happy to be here and, you know,
[00:00:17.960]Holdread with Athletics IT,
[00:00:19.540]I report to Tracy, but embedded in the athletics area.
[00:00:25.273]And Nina and I are here today to talk about diversity,
[00:00:29.980]diversity, equity, and inclusion.
[00:00:31.740]And we are not here because we have all the answers.
[00:00:34.960]In fact, we are here because we are asking the question:
[00:00:38.350]how do we improve diversity, equity and inclusion
[00:00:42.020]both at our institution,
[00:00:43.400]and more broadly in higher ed. IT?
[00:00:46.390]And the wonderful thing about higher ed.
[00:00:50.120]IT, in particular,
[00:00:51.130]my experience is that we collaborate really well,
[00:00:53.710]and we help each other find the way.
[00:00:55.230]And so that's what we're really hoping will happen today.
[00:00:58.730]We will share some of our experience and journey,
[00:01:02.140]and then we will do a little breakout activity.
[00:01:05.360]So hang on, I know this is,
[00:01:08.953]you know, from a
[00:01:10.270]a session perspective, it's, you know, going into a room
[00:01:14.160]with people you don't know can be a little uncomfortable.
[00:01:17.140]But that's actually sort of the the point,
[00:01:20.060]is that diversity, equity,
[00:01:21.640]and inclusion to really do the work required
[00:01:23.930]for that requires us to be uncomfortable.
[00:01:25.930]So we're going to try that out,
[00:01:27.580]and I think those are where the relationships
[00:01:29.380]and the great conversations happen.
[00:01:30.830]So, so we will, we will get to that in a little bit,
[00:01:34.410]but first a little context here,
[00:01:36.770]and I like to
[00:01:38.570]cite this EDUCAUSE Workforce Study,
[00:01:45.163]you know, it just made it really clear to me
[00:01:47.610]the challenges we face
[00:01:49.410]in IT and higher ed, in particular, around diversity, equity
[00:01:54.623]And diversity in particular,
[00:01:56.270]and there are so many aspects of diversity,
[00:01:58.170]so we'll just focus on a couple here.
[00:02:00.630]But that disabilities, I was actually surprised
[00:02:03.750]by the number of people who identified with disabilities.
[00:02:06.850]And so that causes me to think, how do we,
[00:02:09.790]how do we make an inclusive environment for everyone?
[00:02:13.750]And also when we look at ethnicity, we are,
[00:02:16.580]we are not a very diverse group overall.
[00:02:18.930]And, and how do we work on that?
[00:02:21.060]And how do we improve that,
[00:02:22.190]and have people feel included?
[00:02:25.640]And, for groups that are-
[00:02:27.840]Organizations that are working
[00:02:29.400]on diversity, equity and inclusion,
[00:02:31.320]there are so many good frameworks out there,
[00:02:33.140]and I'm just a big fan of frameworks in general.
[00:02:35.600]I love a framework
[00:02:37.478]and, and they're easy to find.
[00:02:39.810]I mean, you know, a lot of universities have them published
[00:02:42.990]on their websites and have focused efforts around them.
[00:02:46.060]And the common thing about them is there's a sense
[00:02:49.820]of movement, and progress, and forward motion,
[00:02:52.700]and climbing up a ladder and, you know,
[00:02:56.230]and, you know,
[00:02:57.100]up and up and, and forward.
[00:03:01.863]that is really good
[00:03:02.696]for a framework to be that way,
[00:03:03.900]but it actually is not how it always feels to work
[00:03:06.680]on diversity, equity and inclusion.
[00:03:09.090]And in fact, it causes me to think of this change curve
[00:03:13.160]which is one of my favorite things to use when
[00:03:14.930]we're talking about system implementations.
[00:03:18.520]That it's, it's really, it's not,
[00:03:22.090]it's not easy.
[00:03:23.740]And it's in fact very hard and the work of change management
[00:03:27.770]and the work of diversity and inclusion is not
[00:03:31.250]going to be all rosy and wonderful all the time.
[00:03:35.390]But it's important to realize that and to think about,
[00:03:39.570]you know, sort of those stages of
[00:03:41.540]how we progress through that.
[00:03:43.260]And so I like to think about this, this change curve of,
[00:03:47.080]you know, when we start out on something
[00:03:48.480]we feel excited and gung ho and then, you know, we get
[00:03:52.840]to a point where we realize this is harder than we thought
[00:03:56.220]and then frustration sets in and we can actually get
[00:03:59.760]to the point of being depressed and feeling this, you know
[00:04:02.850]valley of despair concept
[00:04:04.710]where we have fear, we have anger, we have resistance.
[00:04:07.800]People come out of the woodwork that we didn't know,
[00:04:10.450]and doubts are planted.
[00:04:12.780]And it's really, it's hard to keep up
[00:04:14.970]that energy to keep going.
[00:04:17.620]And in fact, with,
[00:04:19.190]I'm noticing, with the diversity, equity,
[00:04:21.700]inclusion efforts, that it's
[00:04:23.920]you know, there's even little peaks in this valley
[00:04:26.110]of despair where we're, you know, we're making progress
[00:04:28.440]and then, you know, maybe we have a setback.
[00:04:31.220]But I think ultimately the hope is, and our, and you know
[00:04:34.940]what I think we need to believe is
[00:04:36.500]that if we keep working this
[00:04:38.430]then our outcomes are going to be so much better
[00:04:41.380]than they ever were before.
[00:04:43.320]So that's why I like to use this,
[00:04:45.890]this change curve to start orient the conversation today.
[00:04:52.130]And so now I will hand it over to Nina who will take us
[00:04:54.470]through a little bit of her journey at Notre Dame.
[00:04:57.610]Yeah, so thank you, Tracy.
[00:04:58.640]So we did see the need
[00:04:59.820]for a change and we're like,
[00:05:01.210]where should we start?
[00:05:02.620]So we started
[00:05:04.100]some of the groundwork that set our foundation is
[00:05:06.303]that we started with a small DNI task force within IT.
[00:05:11.290]And then we started asking people,
[00:05:13.580]and people just volunteer to share some
[00:05:15.810]of their stories and experiences
[00:05:17.880]of things that they had witnessed or been part of
[00:05:20.590]to understand their journey,
[00:05:22.900]and what they went through.
[00:05:25.680]Another thing that we thought we would do is voluntarily
[00:05:28.670]ask our staff to share a little bit about themselves.
[00:05:31.450]When we were talking about, amongst ourselves, we were like
[00:05:34.430]how much do we know about our, our own internal staff?
[00:05:37.850]And that way was understanding their background,
[00:05:42.430]and we highlighted their stories in our weekly newsletter.
[00:05:46.360]We also had coffee breaks
[00:05:48.290]focused on different discussions, and ideas, and themes.
[00:05:52.310]And we emphasized the ground rules for participants.
[00:05:54.870]It wasn't always easy, but we said
[00:05:56.330]it's okay just to listen.
[00:05:58.020]And this is something difficult and hard,
[00:06:00.360]but we appreciate everybody's feedback
[00:06:02.210]and being part of those discussions.
[00:06:13.630]as, as our journey was down the curve,
[00:06:15.740]as Tracy talked about,
[00:06:16.620]we had highlights and peaks and valleys in our curve.
[00:06:22.700]we did a survey
[00:06:24.130]and survey was really about what is,
[00:06:26.790]I think diversity is easier to measure,
[00:06:28.850]but what does it mean to be an inclusive workplace to you?
[00:06:33.279]And just talked about that with our staff.
[00:06:35.400]So it was an anonymous survey,
[00:06:36.780]people could just submit ideas,
[00:06:38.910]and just really start uncovering this concept.
[00:06:43.310]We started introducing the concept of the
[00:06:45.860]hiring process changes in our managers meeting.
[00:06:49.110]And that was met with some resistance actually,
[00:06:52.480]which we were surprised by our managers.
[00:06:54.540]Some people were like for it,
[00:06:55.760]some people didn't understand
[00:06:57.260]why we needed the change.
[00:06:59.690]They thought everything that we're doing is fine.
[00:07:02.000]So it was really uncovering some microaggressions
[00:07:05.680]in some cases, macroaggressions, in terms
[00:07:07.760]of things that we thought everybody saw the need
[00:07:10.530]for this change, but they were reluctant to do so.
[00:07:18.080]So then based on some of the, that, we took a step back,
[00:07:22.390]and started working with,
[00:07:24.550]you know, with our teams in terms of understanding
[00:07:28.950]the reminder of why at every conversation
[00:07:31.830]and discussion of why we're doing this.
[00:07:33.820]Making sure we understood that everybody was
[00:07:35.910]at a different point in this journey.
[00:07:38.070]So I think why and
[00:07:39.570]what we're focusing on really, really helped.
[00:07:42.890]We ended up doing breakout sessions
[00:07:44.550]and smaller group conversations that were very insightful
[00:07:47.650]both at the managers meeting,
[00:07:49.400]and then also at our larger
[00:07:50.722]all hands meeting with the entire IT staff.
[00:07:54.780]And then that helped us to build this bigger taskforce
[00:07:59.410]and have better representation,
[00:08:01.110]and broader representation, across IT.
[00:08:03.800]People just wanted to be part
[00:08:05.200]of this discussion and dialogue.
[00:08:07.270]And I think that helped with HR rolling
[00:08:09.720]out some things with the hiring practices,
[00:08:12.410]in making sure that we're included
[00:08:14.050]in the employee resource groups,
[00:08:16.000]and having catalysts, being a representative
[00:08:18.700]of each of the departments within Notre Dame.
[00:08:24.840]So I'm going to turn it back to Tracy,
[00:08:26.300]and I think we're ready for our small group discussion.
[00:08:29.850]Great. So thanks Nina.
[00:08:31.280]And that gives you a sense of what we're hoping to share
[00:08:35.000]with each other in a small group environment of what are,
[00:08:38.400]what have been some of your
[00:08:39.330]peaks and valleys in your journey,
[00:08:41.330]and how can we learn from each other?
[00:08:43.960]So, you know, just a few little logistical things
[00:08:46.740]and then I'll break us up.
[00:08:48.600]We know that, you know, video, it's your choice,
[00:08:51.720]but if you're going to leave your -
[00:08:52.920]We love seeing faces, so that would be wonderful
[00:08:55.085]if you want to turn on video,
[00:08:55.918]but it's completely fine if you don't.
[00:08:57.980]And, but if you could just sort of
[00:09:00.130]either vocalize you're there,
[00:09:01.410]or say I'm going to be participating in chat today,
[00:09:04.800]you know just check in with your group in that way.
[00:09:07.680]And if there could be a sort of a
[00:09:08.880]point person to take notes and facilitate
[00:09:11.650]and make sure everybody has a chance to speak,
[00:09:13.950]that would be great.
[00:09:15.770]We're going to get 15 minutes,
[00:09:16.940]and then these are the two ideas for questions we had:
[00:09:19.480]What's your low point, your moment of despair?
[00:09:21.790]And then on the other hand,
[00:09:24.120]what's something that's just worked really well for you?
[00:09:27.160]And then when we come back
[00:09:28.150]we'll debrief a little bit
[00:09:29.630]so we can have some of that cross group sharing.
[00:09:35.380]All right, so I'm going to break us out,
[00:09:39.110]and we'll try to hit groups of five or six.
[00:09:42.650]Well, thanks for, for doing that.
[00:09:45.350]I just really enjoyed my, my breakout room,
[00:09:48.000]and we. there were definitely some mutual sharing
[00:09:50.800]of low points and hurdles,
[00:09:53.480]and, but also some real bright spots.
[00:09:55.790]So just want to open it up for a little while.
[00:09:58.510]What you know, some takeaways, some, some themes,
[00:10:02.030]something that stood out to you in your conversation?
[00:10:04.430]So anybody just feel free to speak up,
[00:10:07.510]or drop it in chat.
[00:10:19.183]My name is Liz Westling,
[00:10:20.170]and kind of a shared theme was that there was a lot
[00:10:24.660]of conversations starting, which was a positive.
[00:10:27.410]We were pleased with that
[00:10:28.690]in a variety of different areas.
[00:10:30.670]However, we were concerned with that,
[00:10:32.370]then the implementation to action,
[00:10:34.860]how to create that change,
[00:10:36.860]now that we have the conversation going,
[00:10:38.590]and we've identified some,
[00:10:40.450]some things that we know need to change.
[00:10:46.680]Great. Thank you.
[00:10:48.193]Yeah, that is,
[00:10:50.860]how to move to action is a great theme,
[00:10:55.390]and a really hard thing to do.
[00:10:57.750]I can go next for our group if that's okay?
[00:11:00.150]Hi, my name is Ashley,
[00:11:01.170]I'm with Swarthmore College.
[00:11:03.820]Some things that we were,
[00:11:06.670]we had some low moments of despair,
[00:11:08.430]was during times of no money in the budget.
[00:11:13.270]And then there's often mixed messages
[00:11:15.730]within a very complex system.
[00:11:17.570]You know, you have different departments,
[00:11:20.570]there's the diversity
[00:11:23.410]inclusion department itself,
[00:11:25.720]multiple schools or universities,
[00:11:28.060]and, you know
[00:11:29.320]not having everyone on the same page
[00:11:31.160]about what's going on.
[00:11:33.190]So some of that, those messages kind of get mixed up,
[00:11:36.750]and it's hard to figure out best practices.
[00:11:40.418]So, but some, some of the most well-received
[00:11:45.299]practices that we've encountered
[00:11:48.480]have been the start of these conversations,
[00:11:51.480]and the start of the systems being put into place.
[00:11:54.600]So, we've seen it kind of begin right now, which is good.
[00:11:59.180]Some of the other things during these discussions,
[00:12:02.160]the breakout rooms provide that,
[00:12:04.660]that space for a small discussion and conversation.
[00:12:09.610]So you get to see your colleagues, you know,
[00:12:11.630]in a, in a different light.
[00:12:13.480]You get to know them a little bit better,
[00:12:16.460]and it breaks down barriers in that regard.
[00:12:19.920]And so someone also mentioned that they are,
[00:12:23.390]they get to share stories from their students,
[00:12:25.760]who've gone through the program,
[00:12:26.810]which is really insightful for them.
[00:12:32.390]And one thing that someone was conflicted
[00:12:35.790]whether it was despair or, you know,
[00:12:39.370]well received was that the,
[00:12:40.730]that there has been a lot of uptick and award
[00:12:43.850]and recognition around DEI,
[00:12:45.640]and the question was, you know,
[00:12:48.790]are these people doing it for the right reasons, right?
[00:12:55.420]Yeah. That's, that's, yeah,
[00:12:57.810]those are just such great points all around.
[00:13:00.340]And I'm definitely familiar with some of the themes
[00:13:03.050]that came up in our conversation too,
[00:13:05.490]in our group that, you know,
[00:13:06.730]there's all this energy and interest in
[00:13:09.990]diversity and hiring practices.
[00:13:11.940]And then, you know, a lot of us are
[00:13:13.890]facing financial constraints that our institutions
[00:13:16.510]and hiring freezes.
[00:13:18.520]what do you do in that?
[00:13:20.130]So, yeah, all amazing points.
[00:13:22.000]Thank you, Ashley.
[00:13:23.400]You had in there, I was in the group
[00:13:24.450]with Ashley, and I think they, in the beginning pre-COVID,
[00:13:28.140]they were looking to hire a company, you know,
[00:13:31.170]to help with efforts,
[00:13:32.270]and then management's like, you don't have any money.
[00:13:34.630]So now what do you do?
[00:13:35.970]And so they kind of had to regroup
[00:13:45.950]Yeah, so it's easy to despair
[00:13:47.510]in that situation,
[00:13:48.500]but I guess the bright spot
[00:13:49.540]is the extra creativity that has to come
[00:13:52.010]about related to constrain resources.
[00:13:56.860]Great. Who else?
[00:13:58.210]This is great.
[00:14:00.820]I'll speak up next for my group.
[00:14:02.610]I think probably the common thing
[00:14:05.960]that all of us talked about was, just, kind of the,
[00:14:11.850]how, how much work and effort goes in and how,
[00:14:17.680]unfavorably that compares to,
[00:14:19.720]to what we want the result to be.
[00:14:24.870]especially since most of us are in academia
[00:14:26.580]things move slow anyway,
[00:14:28.120]and this this is a topic where it seems like there's,
[00:14:30.280]there's extra resistance,
[00:14:31.830]and it's just the pace of changes is really,
[00:14:37.090]A couple people also talked about,
[00:14:43.130]there, there are problems,
[00:14:44.490]and we know about the, that there are problems,
[00:14:47.470]but there isn't always a safe space to report
[00:14:50.810]and deal with those problems.
[00:14:52.760]You know, the are repercussions for,
[00:14:54.330]the person reporting, for instance, is still a problem.
[00:14:59.220]Kind of on our, on the hopeful side,
[00:15:02.160]everyone was able to point out small successes, you know,
[00:15:06.340]educational programs or, or, or small groups
[00:15:10.070]or, or, or
[00:15:12.700]successes and adapting to situations.
[00:15:15.630]And so I guess, celebrate those small victories.
[00:15:20.300]And one, one person in the group had a big victory,
[00:15:23.070]or impending victory, to report their college
[00:15:24.830]will be hiring an Associate Dean for DEI,
[00:15:27.859]and that's, that's a huge step for them.
[00:15:29.950]So a great, great for them and their college.
[00:15:36.500]Great. Thank you, Jeff.
[00:15:37.410]I appreciate that.
[00:15:38.670]All great points.
[00:15:42.300]Okay. Who else? This is great.
[00:16:11.890]Okay, I've maxed out on my comfort with awkward silence,
[00:16:14.320]so I'll jump in,
[00:16:16.200]but if anyone thinks of something, jump in.
[00:16:19.273]The, some of the themes I wrote down
[00:16:20.960]from our conversation was that,
[00:16:25.383]really good to see more transparency
[00:16:27.970]around the data around diversity and inclusion,
[00:16:29.990]and that, I thought that was a great thing to
[00:16:31.650]hear is happening.
[00:16:32.510]I don't know that that's happening across higher ed,
[00:16:35.740]but to know that it can happen,
[00:16:37.560]it's really inspiring.
[00:16:40.060]Another, another big theme that we talked about of one
[00:16:42.520]of the hurdles is the, sort of the leaky retention
[00:16:46.120]when you, maybe your diversity in your hiring is improved,
[00:16:49.390]but then if you have retention and competing, you know,
[00:16:53.110]with companies that are paying a lot more.
[00:16:56.660]Nicer weather if you live in, you know,
[00:16:59.350]the Midwest or other places,
[00:17:01.926]can be a factor.
[00:17:04.040]Just that, you know, that constant work needed,
[00:17:07.010]as Jeff mentioned, the so much effort to, you know,
[00:17:10.160]just achieve those incremental results.
[00:17:15.220]Good. Anything else?
[00:17:16.770]Any other thoughts?
[00:17:18.610]Maybe I'll add one more thought here is I know we're
[00:17:21.580]kind of living in the, the George Floyd era moment,
[00:17:25.330]so to speak,
[00:17:26.163]and that's kind of,
[00:17:29.060]propagated people to action in academia,
[00:17:32.570]but a, a lot of people still think, that,
[00:17:36.840]what I call as tokenism, they're token approaches
[00:17:40.070]that have been taken to hire people
[00:17:41.850]in certain, certain positions,
[00:17:44.950]and not enough systemic changes are happening.
[00:17:49.960]So that is, that is, that is, part,
[00:17:51.940]no that's a big concern going down the road is,
[00:17:55.390]are we just going to see tokenisms,
[00:17:57.500]or are we going to see systemic, real systemic change?
[00:18:02.900]Right. Excellent. Thank you so much.
[00:18:07.730]Okay, well, I will, let's keep moving on here.
[00:18:11.430]Tracy, I was going to say somebody had asked,
[00:18:13.010]and I think we ran out of time in our breakout session,
[00:18:15.160]but they were saying what are we doing
[00:18:16.930]in our hiring practices to change?
[00:18:19.100]So maybe we can highlight and discuss that as next steps?
[00:18:24.290]Yeah, that's a great point.
[00:18:27.880]Okay, so let me,
[00:18:30.270]we went, we did want to have a little call to action.
[00:18:32.960]So I will share my screen again.
[00:18:35.730]I mentioned frameworks and,
[00:18:39.000]you know I love frameworks,
[00:18:39.900]but I do have a favorite,
[00:18:42.210]and this one is timely.
[00:18:44.160]And I do, I will declare my bias
[00:18:46.250]towards the work of this group,
[00:18:47.870]because I am on the group of coordinators for it.
[00:18:50.870]But the inner racism and academia group ARiA
[00:18:54.900]I just found to be a really impactful way to have,
[00:18:58.270]sort of these safe space discussions
[00:19:00.210]across higher ed where maybe you don't,
[00:19:02.410]you don't have that safe space in your own institution,
[00:19:04.590]and it just gives an opportunity to connect
[00:19:06.270]and collaborate across higher ed
[00:19:08.390]and really grow together.
[00:19:11.210]we have a new URL for our website
[00:19:15.660]So I encourage you to check that out,
[00:19:17.240]and we'll be communicating.
[00:19:18.830]There was a, this was a whole series
[00:19:20.500]of discussions last year,
[00:19:22.640]and we're going to be starting up again in June,
[00:19:25.140]and it's a five part series,
[00:19:26.320]but you can join any time.
[00:19:29.690]just, you know,
[00:19:30.550]it's sort of, of led within higher ed
[00:19:33.210]on a volunteer basis and for higher ed,
[00:19:35.730]and I just, I think there's, that's a great thing about it.
[00:19:39.090]So more communications coming soon will be on
[00:19:42.278]all the EDUCAUSE Diversity and IT groups,
[00:19:45.850]and other groups we'll,
[00:19:47.320]we'll push that out too.
[00:19:48.550]So, encourage everybody to think about checking that out.
[00:19:53.710]Okay, and then I did,
[00:19:55.090]this is just sort of,
[00:19:57.188]of recognizing our sources from those early sides,
[00:20:00.390]and then thinking about what's next.
[00:20:03.210]I think, you know, we have some ideas at Notre Dame.
[00:20:07.070]I think Nina made, you made an awesome point
[00:20:09.340]about hiring practices.
[00:20:14.873]What else do we think about what's next?
[00:20:18.710]And I'll stop sharing my screen
[00:20:20.240]so we can see each other better.
[00:20:35.508]Any other call to action,
[00:20:36.530]or plugs for things you're passionate about, or
[00:20:46.710]Somebody in our group had mentioned
[00:20:50.060]You know, it was just, you know,
[00:20:51.840]highlighting different videos
[00:20:53.370]and having discussion around those videos.
[00:20:56.540]Whether it's in a large group,
[00:20:58.340]or breakout sessions.
[00:20:59.210]So I thought that was something that I definitely
[00:21:01.090]want to research and, and do Tracy.
[00:21:06.840]John did you want to jump in?
[00:21:07.900]I noticed you unmuted.
[00:21:09.200]Yeah, I did.
[00:21:11.740]We, we had a session.
[00:21:13.840]I do some work with a Midwestern higher education compact,
[00:21:16.670]and we had a session actually on web accessibility
[00:21:19.510]in our annual meeting this year.
[00:21:20.890]And the presenter did,
[00:21:22.440]she was from Kent state,
[00:21:24.150]did an amazing job of really
[00:21:25.500]talking about the economic impact of
[00:21:28.310]under serving communities that are,
[00:21:31.241]that are covered by the ADA.
[00:21:33.820]And one of the things that really struck home to me is that,
[00:21:38.670]and, and thank you by the work,
[00:21:39.920]for your work on ARiA.
[00:21:40.820]I got to participate in that this year.
[00:21:42.150]It is a fabulous program.
[00:21:43.320]Would highly recommend it for anybody that
[00:21:45.440]for anybody that wants to participate,
[00:21:47.020]it's really good.
[00:21:48.940]But one of the things that strikes me
[00:21:51.450]is that we've got lots of audiences in terms of,
[00:21:54.520]sort of, how to move the systemic pieces of the puzzle.
[00:22:00.456]the rationale for doing DEI,
[00:22:02.950]for me is,
[00:22:05.170]a pretty deeply held moral and ethical
[00:22:07.680]obligation that this is simply
[00:22:09.080]the right thing to do.
[00:22:10.080]It's, it's what we need to do societally,
[00:22:13.100]but I also realized that there are a lot
[00:22:14.840]of people around the decision-making table
[00:22:16.530]for whom that argument
[00:22:18.420]does not necessarily resonate.
[00:22:20.783]And, and I think that's one of the reasons
[00:22:22.010]that we remain stuck or,
[00:22:24.350]or that the the task seems pretty Sisyphean.
[00:22:28.540]And one of the things that the presentation that, that,
[00:22:31.930]that we received at MEK
[00:22:34.050]pointed out to me is
[00:22:35.270]that there are real serious
[00:22:37.510]business and economic drivers
[00:22:39.270]behind the value of diversity initiatives.
[00:22:41.980]And I don't argue that we should do them because of that,
[00:22:44.930]but I do think for some people
[00:22:46.600]that's an argument that resonates differently,
[00:22:49.750]and, and a powerful one and,
[00:22:51.420]and an argument that needs to come
[00:22:52.820]alongside the moral and ethical argument.
[00:22:55.210]Because the reality is not everybody responds to the moral
[00:22:58.050]and ethical argument as, as unfortunate as that may be.
[00:23:10.341]I was just thinking,
[00:23:11.580]I've been reading this book Weapons of Mass Destruction,
[00:23:19.730]kind of ties into what we're talking about here.
[00:23:22.260]There's a lot of big data has come in,
[00:23:26.650]often tries to help and oftentimes hurts,
[00:23:29.650]or things where there's a lot of oversights and,
[00:23:33.080]and how people are reviewing and applying
[00:23:37.570]data to different sectors of the population.
[00:23:41.790]And so, anyway, it's an interesting,
[00:23:45.090]it's a good and very educational read
[00:23:47.910]for me to especially get some
[00:23:50.800]concept and more knowledge of how to maybe just make
[00:23:58.990]little incremental steps towards
[00:24:02.820]improvement, you know, for, for everyone.
[00:24:07.350]Great, thank you.
[00:24:08.210]I love a book recommendation too, so that's great.
[00:24:27.933]Well, I'm thinking, you know,
[00:24:31.290]I think it would also be important to,
[00:24:37.718]insist on universities being more
[00:24:40.390]public institutions again.
[00:24:42.620]For example, you know, supporting graduate students'
[00:24:45.730]attempt to unionize.
[00:24:49.363]lowering admission fees,
[00:24:52.050]and these kinds of things.
[00:24:54.560]Also, you know, a lot
[00:24:55.470]of these policy packets that we,
[00:25:00.290]kind of like,
[00:25:02.830]beginning to, to address them
[00:25:05.120]as difficult as it seems
[00:25:06.910]in the current
[00:25:08.900]environment that we find ourselves in.
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