IFTN 2021 Virtual Conference Day 2
IFTN 2021 Virtual Conference Day 1 | 10-11 a.m.: Nothing is Certain Except Death and Taxes...Right? With Kitt Tovar Jensen | 11 a.m.-noon: Getting Farm Families to Talk About Succession with Joy Kirkpatrick and Darlene Livingston | 11 a.m.-noon: To Have and to Hold: Exploring the Human Dynamics Affecting Farm Succession and Retirement in Later Life with Dr. Shane Conway. https://farmtransition.org.
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[00:00:00.089]Kitt Tovar Jensen: topic that is not very glamorous right, but it is very important to the farm succession.
[00:00:08.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: planning in the farm Community right.
[00:00:12.690]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And, as you know, there's a.
[00:00:14.309]Kitt Tovar Jensen: famous saying out there that.
[00:00:17.220]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Nothing I start in life, except death and taxes and, while those two things are still unavoidable we're going to be talking about day how uncertain what changes may be coming to the tax code may or may not be coming.
[00:00:29.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So we talking about that, today, I think that this type of presentation might.
[00:00:34.980]Kitt Tovar Jensen: bring some questions, but in i'm going to try to hold them off till the end so I won't be ignored anyone.
[00:00:40.530]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But it kind of builds on it, I might answer questions as we go on so i'm not ignoring anyone i'm just going to wait to the end Okay, but i'm.
[00:00:48.570]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Just real quick before we get started to just a reminder this presentation isn't intended to be legal advice I won't be pinpointing the best farm secession planning tool in 2021 and onward.
[00:01:00.540]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But what I do hope that you guys are going to find this presentation and very useful update about the tax proposals that are up there.
[00:01:08.550]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So with that what I want to do today, I want to first start off with a civics overview civics one on one i'm calling it what's happened, the last 678 months in the.
[00:01:19.800]Kitt Tovar Jensen: United States political atmosphere and After reviewing that what rules and procedures are already are still in place that confined, even though we've had some changes going on.
[00:01:33.300]Kitt Tovar Jensen: create some limitations, then after that we'll be talking about i'm going to go over some of the proposals that we've seen for the tax code, I want to specifically be talking today about the.
[00:01:46.260]Kitt Tovar Jensen: American families plan that's what i've been getting the most questions about that seems to have the most interest right now President biden's recently released plan for the tax code and.
[00:01:57.030]Kitt Tovar Jensen: How it would impact family farms, and I also want to talk about the current law go through some things and then use that as a comparison to show how there would be how these changes would uh.
[00:02:09.480]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Just influence a lot of foreign planning decisions farm succession planning decisions and then, finally I won't be having any predictions today, unfortunately.
[00:02:19.920]Kitt Tovar Jensen: I don't have a crystal ball i'm just like all of you, but I do want to talk about some of the changes that might be happening because.
[00:02:28.650]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Well, as David Baker, and I have worked together quite a bit he's worked with the Center for ag law.
[00:02:33.720]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Over the years, and he knows that we don't normally do presentations like this that are just about proposals or bills because.
[00:02:41.520]Kitt Tovar Jensen: they're just that their proposals they're not concrete yet, but these type of proposals and the American families plan that we're going to be spending a lot of time on today.
[00:02:52.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It just has the potential to create a really big impact so even though.
[00:02:59.340]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We can't predict the future we can anticipate change right, we can start to think about how this might influence or change some of the decisions you're making on your own farming operations, if you have clients start thinking about these questions, we need to start considering.
[00:03:19.230]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So with that, just a quick overview, we all know, but what happened with the 2012 election was that a former Vice President Biden and former Senator Harris, they won the 2020 election, so they want flipping the White House from red to blue.
[00:03:35.970]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And what are they campaign on what I want to talk about some of those.
[00:03:40.590]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Some of those things just to set the stage when a politician, when they campaign on something that doesn't mean it's going to become law or anything but I do think it sets the stage for what we're going to talk about today and.
[00:03:55.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: One of the first things was raising the individual tax rate from 37% back up to 39.6% it's currently up 37% and had been lowered through the tax cuts and jobs act.
[00:04:09.270]Kitt Tovar Jensen: From 39.6% So this was probably one of the least controversial proposals, but something we're going to discuss today, and some of the details that have come out recently surrounding that.
[00:04:23.040]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Another proposal was raising the capital gains tax rate up to 39.6% so the long term gains tax or the top one right now is 20% so this would be a bigger change right obviously practically doubling that top tax rate.
[00:04:39.840]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Another campaign proposal was living stuffed up basis and death and we're going to talk a lot about this today, because it really what the proposal.
[00:04:49.620]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The details of the proposals is not exactly eliminating the steps to come basis, but there are a lot of details that are important, so we're going to be focusing on that.
[00:04:59.790]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And then, this was a big one right, this is a lot of questions we got all asking about what's going to happen to the State and gift tax exemption that was, I think a big concern to a live.
[00:05:12.810]Kitt Tovar Jensen: farmers and producers people asking what was going to happen, because the current exemption is $11.7 million per individual or a little over $23 million dollars for a married couple.
[00:05:25.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: and questioning what's going to happen with that so that was a big concern either proposal was eliminating like kinda exchanges with section 1031 exchanges.
[00:05:36.420]Kitt Tovar Jensen: As well as raising the corporate tax rate from 21% to 28% before the tax cuts and jobs at it was actually a 35% around there, and so this proposal seems to be a bit of a middle ground lowering it are raising it from 21% to 28%.
[00:05:57.390]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So with that not only did you know another part of our recap, not only did the White House change.
[00:06:04.560]Kitt Tovar Jensen: color to blue, but also the Democratic Party, they won't control the US Senate.
[00:06:09.930]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And with the runoff elections in Georgia, we remember that so that created this 5050 split with 48 democrats and to independence caucusing with the Democratic Party, and then 50 Republicans so.
[00:06:24.090]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This creates a razor slim majority razor thin majority by.
[00:06:29.580]Kitt Tovar Jensen: President or Vice President Harris serving as a senate President and she can serve as a tiebreaker if that need arises, so it's ultra thin but that's how the Democrats also have control of the US Senate as well.
[00:06:43.080]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And then in this last election, the Democrats were able to keep the majority in the House so it's pretty slim.
[00:06:50.070]Kitt Tovar Jensen: SLIM is in the Senate, but it's something like 222 to 11 there's a few vacancies, but not enough to flip it back to Republic republican controlled.
[00:06:59.190]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So we see here, basically, that we, the democrats have control the White House the Senate, the House, so you think with That being said, you know we all know how a bill becomes a law with enough control one party could push through whatever legislation they want, but.
[00:07:16.020]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It really turns out to be not that simple, because of certain voting procedure used in the Senate and now normally in the Senate, you need a supermajority to pass.
[00:07:28.230]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Legislation that can be 60 votes or 67 votes depending on.
[00:07:33.690]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The type of legislation that's being considered and what some political experts thought this would mean was that, with this 5050 split.
[00:07:43.350]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This was going to force politicians legislators to work across the aisle reach across the aisle work together and maybe some time for moderates to shine and.
[00:07:53.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: have more control have more say because another part of the Senate procedure is what sounds the filibuster which can be used to block any legislation from becoming forward in a supermajority to vote on legislation things like that and.
[00:08:10.980]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Finally, the other tool that's used in the Senate is budget reconciliation, which is a term that's probably been.
[00:08:18.930]Kitt Tovar Jensen: thrown out quite a bit and you've all heard of it in the last few years and in the last few months it's been coming up.
[00:08:25.380]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And really what budget reconciliation was is that the 1974 the Congressional budget act what it did was it created this process that really streamline how certain tax spending and.
[00:08:37.380]Kitt Tovar Jensen: federal debt limit legislation could be passed, so it is long as Congress is coming from this budget resolution legislation.
[00:08:46.980]Kitt Tovar Jensen: type of legislation they can pass legislation with a simple majority so just 51 votes which the democrats do have.
[00:08:54.900]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The budget reconciliation filibuster cannot be used with it.
[00:08:59.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But the key thing here is that there has to be this legislation that North US budget reconciliation, it can only deal with revenue or spending.
[00:09:09.840]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So now, I believe that with the American rescue plan, there was a talk of trying to incorporate raising the federal minimum wage into it, but the Senate parliamentarian said that was extraneous and cannot be used so things like that.
[00:09:24.900]Kitt Tovar Jensen: could not be included so budget reconciliation it can't be used for everything, but it can be used.
[00:09:30.690]Kitt Tovar Jensen: In some of these American families plan that is dealing with revenue and spending so we're going to see that, where it's it's a tool to be used, but it's difficult still.
[00:09:40.800]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It really doesn't give any wiggle room for a party who wants is hoping, everyone will vote and along party lines really no one can follow the Rings right.
[00:09:53.400]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what we have here now is what's going on currently That was our recap that we remember over the last.
[00:10:00.120]Kitt Tovar Jensen: six to eight months, but what we're currently seeing is really President Biden what he's calling the bill back better.
[00:10:07.620]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And this all kind of started with the American rescue plan that was passed earlier this year, that was a $1.9 trillion package, but amy at creating coven at 19 relief.
[00:10:18.510]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So this was a bill that was passed through budget reconciliation very slim majority very slim Lee pass, as you can see here at 5049 vote in the Senate to 2011 in the House.
[00:10:34.140]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It just goes to show it has it budget reconciliation has been used in the past, already but i'm waiting with this administration but um.
[00:10:43.140]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah and there's not a lot of room for anything to go wrong, I won't really be talking about American risky play today, but if you do want more information there's some blog post on our website.
[00:10:56.220]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So, after the American rescue plan, we did now we're seeing the American jobs clinic and that was recently released just this last March, and that is President vitamins infrastructure plan that is supposed to query or.
[00:11:10.710]Kitt Tovar Jensen: provide a way to pay for new roads, bridges job different types of jobs things like that, but how press the President proposes to pay for all these new things is really.
[00:11:21.930]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Changing different structure of the corporate and international tax structure so that would be the goal here, and one of those things that he campaign proposals President Biden.
[00:11:33.300]Kitt Tovar Jensen: had talked about previously raising the corporate tax rate back up to 20% we see that hearing a plan that is one proposal there's other things to pay for some of these ideas in the American jobs plan.
[00:11:47.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Changing how US companies abroad are taxed how US company here how companies in the US or tax different things like that, but so that's currently what's going on.
[00:11:58.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Right now, what Congress is looking at, but what I want when when mostly focus on today is this American families plan, which I think.
[00:12:08.130]Kitt Tovar Jensen: i've heard we've all heard of it, but a lot of questions surrounding it, because we still don't have a lot of details.
[00:12:14.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But basically, what this is it's just a it's a $1.8 trillion plan that's supposed to expand the benefits of economic growth to all Americans, so it has some big goals.
[00:12:25.470]Kitt Tovar Jensen: and wants to pay for two years of free Community college free preschool more support for families with kids mainly through increased child tax credits different things like that.
[00:12:37.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And we still don't have many details we originally were able to see a bulleted fact sheet from the White House kind of kind of outline.
[00:12:47.340]Kitt Tovar Jensen: outlining what the president's proposal was it wasn't till about one half ago, we got more information, but basically how the President proposes to pay for all this is to increase the tax on what.
[00:13:00.150]Kitt Tovar Jensen: They call the wealthiest Americans and they consider the wealthiest Americans anyone who makes over $400,000 a year.
[00:13:07.650]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So the plan states that these programs can be paid for over 15 years but no taxes on those on tax peers, who are in less than $400,000 will be raised.
[00:13:19.380]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This is kind of the gist of it with them limited details, this is still what we're looking at here and trying to prepare for the potential of it i'm going to say those words lot potential maybe if proposals so just be ready for that.
[00:13:35.880]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But what we want to focus on is just thinking about this could have a very significant impact on how we currently conduct firm succession planning business planning even how RU landowners are able to.
[00:13:51.690]Kitt Tovar Jensen: own farmland, it could have a really big impact and that's why I do want us to talk today spend a lot of time talking about this.
[00:13:59.970]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Just because, if we look at the past administrations as guidance as well with the Obama administration, the trump administration, even the bite in a minute administration already laws have been or bills have become laws and we haven't seen texts until maybe a few hours before.
[00:14:18.990]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This law, maybe we have a new law, all these new changes so we'll have to pivot and move quickly if things do happen, while the same time, realizing that everything we're talking about today.
[00:14:31.320]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Nothing is set in stone so we're still just trying to get ready for ourselves for our clients ready to map out anything that could change in the future, just be ready for it and starting to think of some of these situations could apply to us or not apply to us things like that.
[00:14:51.000]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So then, just at the end of May, we did get with some more details about this plan, when the Treasury Department released a green book.
[00:14:59.520]Kitt Tovar Jensen: In that describe us more details about President violins of fiscal budget for the year 2022 so So are we able to get some more information, some more examples of how this some of the proposals would work.
[00:15:13.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Here I want to go through some of these proposals now, but one of the first things that I want to talk about because it's the only retroactive.
[00:15:21.780]Kitt Tovar Jensen: proposal and they're only proposal that would be retroactive theoretically, and that is eliminating the preferential capital gain tax rate.
[00:15:31.140]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So when we go through this will see a lot of people ask well what's retroactive what's not at this point, this is the only one we've seen that would be retroactive.
[00:15:40.380]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Because, starting in April 29 of this year, so the day after the plan was released the preferential capital gains tax rate would be eliminated, for those who have over a million dollars in income.
[00:15:53.430]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And how this would work is that any CAP long term capital gains that exceeds a million dollars, so I think over that amount would be subject to long term, or will be subject to ordinary income tax rates instead.
[00:16:07.410]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Instead of the preferential capital gain tax rate that we currently have.
[00:16:12.570]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So here's just an example, this is what this is the tax rate that we currently see with.
[00:16:18.420]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Our ordinary income tax rates, ranging from 10% to 37% but then for long term capital gains seeing it ranges from zero percent to 20%, which is a big difference.
[00:16:32.280]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And so, how would this work, how would this illumination of the capital gains tax rate for over a million dollars, how would that look and the green book.
[00:16:40.200]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It does give us this example, where it says let's say we have a taxpayer who earns at least $900,000 from the regular job, but that in a year and then that same year, they also have $200,000 in.
[00:16:54.180]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Capital gain they sold something and the approach the game you appreciation was worth $200,000 well that's a total of $1.1 million, and so what we see here is that.
[00:17:05.190]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Under the proposal 100,000 of that capital gain with the tax at the current preferential gain tax rate.
[00:17:13.140]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Of 20% but then that hundred thousand dollars that's over the million that would be taxed at ordinary income rates which right now is 37%.
[00:17:23.100]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So that's that would be it's targeted income but we'll see some other changes that really come up.
[00:17:29.250]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And I haven't what there's a little aspect of the bottom there that i'm going to talk about next because one of the things that President Biden hat campaigned on and, as in this proposal is restoring that.
[00:17:41.280]Kitt Tovar Jensen: 39.6% top tax rates for it for income, so that was what was, in fact, like I said before, the tax cuts in jobs Act and the tax cuts in jobs actually lowered it to 37%.
[00:17:55.410]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But with the tax cuts and jobs, I also did was raise the income at which the highest highest tax rate applied so not only did a lower the top tax rate also.
[00:18:08.340]Kitt Tovar Jensen: raise what income, it takes to how that tax apply to it, so it was kind of a two for one deal that didn't make a big difference and.
[00:18:18.000]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What we also see here part of this plan is also lowering the income threshold at which the that 39.6%.
[00:18:28.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So there's some numbers here, this is part of the proposal, where we see here and 2021 currently for those married filing jointly.
[00:18:37.110]Kitt Tovar Jensen: If you're at the $620,000 $300 level you're taxed at 37% but, at the proposed.
[00:18:46.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Under the new proposal for those who make just a little over the $509,000 level would be taxed at 39% at that new tax rate, so this would be.
[00:18:57.150]Kitt Tovar Jensen: That would probably be the more significant change is that income threshold, more so than the tax rate for a lot of for including more people in it.
[00:19:08.310]Kitt Tovar Jensen: i'm here another proposal that these are all kind of gonna end up wrapping together is extending how the net investment income, the niche is applied.
[00:19:18.840]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So currently those who make married filing jointly that make over 250,000 I believe are subject to this next to the next, but here the proposal says that all those have to have over $400,000 in income would be subject to a three points.
[00:19:34.800]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But it would also change under this proposal.
[00:19:37.710]Kitt Tovar Jensen: How net investment income is defined and will include things like gain from any trader businesses that's not otherwise subject to employment tax.
[00:19:46.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So here it's kind of trying the goal seems to be addressing how self employment tax and the nit is applied from across different business entities, and so the proposal was to expand how self employment tax applies to.
[00:20:03.630]Kitt Tovar Jensen: US corporation on our employees limited partners llc members and just to note that this is often called the medicare tax that used to be fun to use to fund my care.
[00:20:15.930]Kitt Tovar Jensen: That so you speak when we say that they call it throughout the Green Book the medicare tax, whether that this 3.8% tax that would be kind of applied across the board.
[00:20:28.470]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So again, the point of this, the Green Book says that it just wants to make things more uniform how different business entities and different things are taxed and that anyone over that $400,000 they could do this by taxi any income of a taxpayer over $400,000 at 3.8%.
[00:20:48.000]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But if you're you know for playing along at home if you're doing this math What does this mean, then, so there's a proposal to increase the top tax rate to 39.6% but then also this 3.8%.
[00:21:02.070]Kitt Tovar Jensen: tax would be included as well, this means that there could be a top federal rate of 43.4%, and this would not be including.
[00:21:15.210]Kitt Tovar Jensen: State taxes or anything like that, but it would this this is changing a little bit more when we combine those two numbers those two proposals together.
[00:21:26.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And here, this is probably the proposal I want to spend the most time on because I think it might be the most significant change for farm succession planning.
[00:21:37.800]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And that is how properties treated, either at death or upon gifting because starting in 2022 So these are all going to start in 2022 except that very first one about the capital gain a rate changing starting that in this coming year any property that is transferred upon death or through.
[00:22:00.810]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And you appreciate it property is going to be treated like a sale so normally what happens with a sale right if you sell farmland well you're going to have to pay capital gains on.
[00:22:10.800]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Any of that appreciation any of that game right so here how this would change is that.
[00:22:17.610]Kitt Tovar Jensen: On death and on gifting there would also this would be treated like a sale, so that means that there is any.
[00:22:23.760]Kitt Tovar Jensen: appreciation that has not yet been realized there's been no taxes paid on it at this point that's going to be taxed either to the decedent through a.
[00:22:34.890]Kitt Tovar Jensen: federal gift or a State tax return or, this is a gifting situation there would be a capital gains return that would need to be filed so which right now is a very different, it would be very different than the system that we currently have.
[00:22:49.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So when we think about this now, we combine these all together.
[00:22:54.210]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We have this proposal to increase the top tax rates have gained subject to ordinary income tax if the gains over a million dollars.
[00:23:03.270]Kitt Tovar Jensen: and applied and knit for that for 3.8% sales are 3.9% tax to any income over $400,000 to things like the sale of farmland well, what does this mean, this means that you create just a.
[00:23:18.630]Kitt Tovar Jensen: substantial tax bill right, especially for things like farmland that have appreciated greatly.
[00:23:26.610]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We can have a situation where land has just come out of a life estate, it was maybe gifted when someone was just beginning farming decades ago and.
[00:23:35.880]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Land has real value of land has really changed right, so we see here if there's a taxable event by dying or gifting that we currently don't have right now, this could be.
[00:23:50.430]Kitt Tovar Jensen: A huge difference because this is a type of tax we've never had before in the US it's not an estate tax is a little different it's not a tax on the value of the estate it's a tax on the appreciation that's occurred right so.
[00:24:05.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We did have some more details released with that green book how this would look, especially with property transfers to a spouse, which is very common right.
[00:24:17.040]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And so under the proposal it says that any property appreciate property that's transferred to a spouse may be exempt but there's a few caveats to that right there is.
[00:24:29.130]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This thing called the basis right that we all know, isn't very important and if property is transferred to a spouse, whether that be through death or gifting.
[00:24:39.510]Kitt Tovar Jensen: That spouse so let's say a spouse passes away owning farmland and he transferred it to his wife or she receives it upon his death well she's going to have.
[00:24:48.960]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The she's going to be able to inherit the land, but the basis in the land is going to be the same as if, when her with her spouse when he bought the land inherited However, he obtained it so.
[00:25:02.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The basis we're not stuck up at all, but she also went to attacks at this time.
[00:25:08.130]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But what would happen under the proposal that it looks like when that surviving spouse either cast away or sells the land something like that, then that tax would be realized that would be recognized and that whoever inherits it would have thought that the state would have to pay.
[00:25:26.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The tax on it, or it was so that would definitely trigger a capital gains being owed, even if it was gifted something like that.
[00:25:35.850]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So it's kind of seems to be a kicking the can down the road situation, a spouse wouldn't have the issue, but if children are inheriting it something like that it would create a taxable event as well later on.
[00:25:51.570]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The plan does talk about certain exemptions, they would like to propose, and so what we see here is that each person could have up to a million dollars excluded from.
[00:26:04.680]Kitt Tovar Jensen: gain upon death or at the time of gifting so that means every person who get a million dollars and married couples would get $2 million a million dollars each.
[00:26:15.120]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And it does seem to mimic the estate tax where there would be portability so when you include that $2 million dollars, plus the plan does not seeing this proposal does not seem it all to.
[00:26:28.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Try to change that exemption for $500,000 for sale to personal residence, that means a married couple would have about two and a half million dollar exemption, they could use.
[00:26:40.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Upon death or a gift or or a gifting depending on the House was included things like that, so it looks a little bit like the estate tax in that way, there would be a an exemption but.
[00:26:52.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It just it wouldn't apply to some sales things like that.
[00:26:57.750]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And I do think it's important here to.
[00:27:00.900]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Talk about this to about what would the basis be stepped up stepped up, is it eliminated and like I had already hinted at it's not so much that the basis the step up in basis eliminated.
[00:27:10.710]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The basis, still does get stopped out to fair market value upon de, but what is changing here is.
[00:27:18.990]Kitt Tovar Jensen: more so when the taxes do right so properties transit care for a death, the basis steps up to fair market value and the the Green Book give some example here, where it says on let's say there's a farmer and he.
[00:27:33.240]Kitt Tovar Jensen: After he passes away his son inherits his $5 million parcel of land, so the farmer had bought the land for $2 million or $2 million basis 70s there's a $3 million getting right.
[00:27:47.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Well, here, the basis is going to get stopped up to $5 million if that's the fair market value when this farmer passed away.
[00:27:54.660]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But what's going to happen is that there's going to be tax do at this time as well, so if we include the 1 million $1 million exemption, we see that's a 1 million off of the $3 million and appreciation so taxes only going to be due on 2 million.
[00:28:11.310]Kitt Tovar Jensen: that's how the exemption would work and that's also how the basis that gets stuffed up but taxes also do so it's kind of a weird it's not eliminating the stuff up it's just changing the taxation timing, I guess, I would say.
[00:28:25.860]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So, if your heads aren't you know guys are going cross eyed trying to understand this and think of all this i'm going to know I thought we could go through some examples of what the current law how.
[00:28:37.830]Kitt Tovar Jensen: How that looks, and so we can compare that to what the proposals would do it, how it would change things, so I have here let's say we have Francesco farmer she owns 1000 acres of farmland she bought it in 1974 and the basis of that point with $650 so she says she's a basis of $650.
[00:29:00.300]Kitt Tovar Jensen: farmland let's say that today under current law Francesca decides to sell it and she can get a total of $7.2 million for this whole thousand acres or about 70 $200 per acre.
[00:29:13.650]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what this means is that she has a gain of $6.55 million that she has to pay capital gains tax on it's a long term.
[00:29:23.100]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Is a long term game right, and so the current rates that we have today, she would have to pay 17.7% of the sales price or $1.272 million so it's a little bit below that 20% the highest rates, you could have for a marginal tax rates.
[00:29:43.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Definitely lower than the ordinary income tax rates right and because she's a farmer in this situation in this example, she has have to play the net at all.
[00:29:56.700]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But let's change it just slightly a little bit let's say instead of farming, she has been a cash renting this land out to a tenant for the last 10 years so she no longer qualifies as a farmer well, that means, she would have to pay this 3.8% net and for an additional 230 $900,000.
[00:30:17.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: She have a total bill of $1.5 million give or take about 21% of sales price, and this is just current law, so if you have any rural landowners.
[00:30:26.520]Kitt Tovar Jensen: That do you want to sell this is about the type of tax, they would be paying right this type of rates but they'd have to consider if they had this much land.
[00:30:36.840]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And so, this is my third at my for examples and then I want to talk about what would happen instead if there was an inheritance, instead of a sale or anything like that and let's say that.
[00:30:47.160]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Changing up the facts, a little Francesca she keeps the thousand acres until she passed away and then her daughter credit she's going to inherit the property.
[00:30:55.500]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Well, what is gratis basis does she going to own taxes or anything like that, and so, when there is a.
[00:31:03.060]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Property transferred on a inheritance, like in this situation, the property basis would be stuffed up to equal what the fair market value is at the time when a Francesco passed away.
[00:31:15.630]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So right now grid is inheriting property that worth $7.2 million right and that is what the basis is going to be as well there's not gonna be any type of income tax because she hasn't sold anything in in this in this hypothetical we're going to say that the.
[00:31:33.810]Kitt Tovar Jensen: basis is exactly equal to sales price so because it's been stuffed up so there's no income tax and there's also not going to be any type of a State tax because it's well below that $11.7 million exemption so here, this is kind of the example that people.
[00:31:52.560]Kitt Tovar Jensen: People go for this is what they are thinking about this is part of a lot of farms succession plans is to eliminate different taxation like that right because of the basis stuff up.
[00:32:06.750]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So this is my last example let's say here that, instead of inheriting the land Francesca instance decides to gift the property to grow in her life.
[00:32:19.530]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what happens here with the are well let's talk about the current laws are first well if any gifting situation, the gift is going to keep the carry over basis so it's going to keep the basis of when that gift giver obtain the property.
[00:32:34.560]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So that would mean that his here the spaces, is going to stay the same right so brought us basis is going to be the same as francesca's it's going to $650 per acre.
[00:32:44.850]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But is there going to be taxes do well there's no gift tax or anything like that do unless with under the unless it goes over the $11.7 million exemption.
[00:32:53.730]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And here we're still well below that so there's no instant tax right there there's no capital gains tax unless Britta sells the property.
[00:33:04.110]Kitt Tovar Jensen: At this point in this example will say she hasn't no gift tax credit just gets to have the property through gifting but she's not paying taxes or anything on it right now, unless she decides to sell.
[00:33:18.870]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Okay, so with that those kind of some of my current law examples that I wanted to go through so just so we can compare how the American families plan how that would change things so in our first example Francesca.
[00:33:34.200]Kitt Tovar Jensen: She she owed about when she was just going to sell she she was a farmer decided to suffer thousand acres she would.
[00:33:41.250]Kitt Tovar Jensen: She owed about you know that $1.27 million in taxes well with the new American families plan under the proposal shoot oh about double that.
[00:33:53.280]Kitt Tovar Jensen: close to the $2.6 million or 36% of the sales price, so how did that all come about, why is there that increase well a large portion of the game would be taxed at that new highest rate, which this year 37% or maybe 39.6%.
[00:34:12.780]Kitt Tovar Jensen: That under the proposal so much that game would be tax there anything over a million dollars and they're also be this new 3.8% of new tax or obviously modified.
[00:34:23.550]Kitt Tovar Jensen: 3.8% medicare tax on anything on again above $400,000 so it really increases from I think the number of something like 17 18% to 36% of sales price, so you know effectively doubling.
[00:34:38.520]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What francesca's tax liability will be just from selling it.
[00:34:44.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And now let's look again how this would impact Francesca and Greta if we had the example regret it wasn't carrying the farmland instead well, like me, it said.
[00:34:56.790]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It under the American families planet when farmland is transfer on death that's gonna be treated like a sales can be treated very similar to the last example where it is not.
[00:35:05.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Actively farming and we'll talk about that in just a second, but if she's not actively farming, this is going to be a taxable event is Francesca passing the land on.
[00:35:17.070]Kitt Tovar Jensen: For a will, or whatever it may be to Britta so Bretton Woods or the state would have this attacks likely.
[00:35:23.790]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Of the game was $6.55 million well there's this million dollar exemption so she'd have to pay the game, or the state would have to pay the game on 5.5.
[00:35:33.450]Kitt Tovar Jensen: pay tax on the $5.55 million game, so this would be a taxable about $2.3 million or 32% of the sale price so at this point the basis is step up to the $7.2 million, but it's also a taxable event when.
[00:35:53.670]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Previously, under current law, this would not be a taxable but right so practically, though, what does this mean.
[00:36:01.650]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What is curtis was to do because she didn't have to sell part of the farm to bankroll this if she can have to take a loan.
[00:36:08.220]Kitt Tovar Jensen: You know it's easier it's is it talks about Francesca and Greta when they're just in a presentation, but we think about the real life.
[00:36:15.450]Kitt Tovar Jensen: implications of it, it can it can be more messy right and we're here to address this there's been little whispers blurbs talking about.
[00:36:26.790]Kitt Tovar Jensen: some type of deferral of this tax for those who are actively farming, so if that deferral did exist let's take credit for it, it is actively farming, there could be an exemption and she would not have to.
[00:36:39.570]Kitt Tovar Jensen: defer the game, not to completely eliminate the taxation, but she could defer the tax liability on this game, the property.
[00:36:46.950]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It says that the plan, this is what it says in the think it was according to the White House.
[00:36:52.110]Kitt Tovar Jensen: information that was released that the plan would defer any tax liability on family farms as long as the farming family owned and operated so that's the language that they said so Greta peers like she could take advantage of this if she's actively farming.
[00:37:09.930]Kitt Tovar Jensen: take advantage of this deferral but the basis only sending stuff to $5 million and so be what $1,650,000 hundred thousand dollars and no further adjustment made so the.
[00:37:23.160]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What the basis is still going to be much different than the fair market value she didn't have to pay a tax, but again might be kicking the can down the road.
[00:37:32.250]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what we have gotten a few more details because i'm sure this is where some of your asking about well, what is this assumption, what is this deferral.
[00:37:41.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And with the Green Book it said that the tax on appreciate assets that are family owned and operated they're not going to be due until the business is no longer or the asset is family owned and operated.
[00:37:55.830]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So that would be the deferral that's what it would look like there was also in part of the proposal was to create a 15 year payment plan for any asset that's not liquid so that also be possibly us as well, this is part of it.
[00:38:14.160]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And, and we also see.
[00:38:18.090]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Talk about what is this exemption for farms go to more details from it isn't what is it what does this all mean.
[00:38:24.990]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This ability to differ for family owned and operated business assets well, that would probably mean that if it's just deferred that the tax is going to be do later down the road if the land is no longer.
[00:38:37.890]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Actively farmed by someone in the family right and the question is, would there be interest on this as well if there is supposedly going to be interest on that tax plan there might be.
[00:38:49.230]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The tax payment plan there might be interest on this, if you know kicking the can down the road again.
[00:38:54.600]Kitt Tovar Jensen: they're probably also be a LIEN on the property and we just don't know how would that impact a farmer producers ability to get operating loans credit things like that it's all things to think about right.
[00:39:09.150]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And so, this was before the green book was issued this Uca, they gave us statistics, they said that they believe under this American families plan that more than 90% of farms would not any tax on transfer data so.
[00:39:25.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: that's what they said they also went on to say that, as long as long as the farm stays in the family.
[00:39:29.460]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And they said that those less than 2% of firms that do oh attacks that would be a non performing assets so.
[00:39:36.390]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We haven't seen this exemption we haven't seen the writing there's been talk we haven't actually seen the exact language of it so we're looking for that we're also looking.
[00:39:46.080]Kitt Tovar Jensen: to Canada, what does this mean that only 2% would pay tax less than 2% would pay taxes on them nonfarm assets so.
[00:39:55.830]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This wouldn't necessarily protect every everyone right people we probably know, or maybe you know situation my own family, where.
[00:40:04.680]Kitt Tovar Jensen: You we own farmland, but we're not actively farming it right now right, so if that those type of people would not be included if they inherited farmland.
[00:40:13.830]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Because they're not a farming descendant and it will be interesting to see if this whether or not this is based off the calculation of land.
[00:40:23.370]Kitt Tovar Jensen: transfer to farming send it, how it would change if it was based off just farmland in general, we are waiting to see now that we have more details me, I think the exemption, the actual language of it it's going to be very important.
[00:40:39.060]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Well, so I said the beginning I wasn't a fortune Teller, but I think I might be a mind reader of what you guys are thinking now is.
[00:40:44.910]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What is family farm what is far me how does that all, what do they mean by that and that is information that we just don't have your have your design.
[00:40:54.600]Kitt Tovar Jensen: This prop sharing count custom farming or those that farming, what about those who are tired or widowed, what do you have to do to be a to be farming, how do you meet that definition and we also want to see this in this definition.
[00:41:10.050]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Who is a family is it a visit just lineal descendants, the siblings cousins is how close how many degrees of kinship can you go out before you're no longer considered family and.
[00:41:22.620]Kitt Tovar Jensen: As we know, families, they all can look a little different how they work, so what we don't see here is a.
[00:41:29.580]Kitt Tovar Jensen: great ability to help those who, like have taken new beginning farmer under their wing that might the situation doesn't seem to be applied if they're not family members there just a neighbor there close with something like that so.
[00:41:44.580]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Definitely things that we're going to keep walking forward with this exemption if it gets written.
[00:41:52.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: A few more minutes I might just quickly go over this before we wrap up, I thought this was really interesting to talking about the changes to.
[00:42:02.400]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Section 1031 exchanges and how that would be the default will be limited to $500,000 in game, so I have this example how section 1031 exchanges, usually work under current law.
[00:42:17.280]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And let's say here we have Martin he's a farmer in western iowa but he he wants to move to eastern iowa except for his family, his and so he has this 500 acre farm on one side of the state.
[00:42:28.980]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And it was a gift from his grandpa so it's some basis is quite low it's a it's worth it's the basis of $600 per acre but she could not sell it for 70 $500 an acre right.
[00:42:39.990]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But what Martin can do is that he has found this perfect farm and Eastern iowa it's 500 acres it's the same exact size and price we're going to say for.
[00:42:48.180]Kitt Tovar Jensen: convenience and so what he can do is sell his current farm take the sale proceeds and then by this new farm Eastern iowa and he would not have to pay any taxes on it, because he has just exchanged it right.
[00:43:02.490]Kitt Tovar Jensen: From one farm for the other same exact size same price everything like that the only issue really is that martin's basis is still going to stay the same as new farm it's $600 that would be the main.
[00:43:17.490]Kitt Tovar Jensen: thing to remember, but as long as he doesn't sell there's no capital gains right, so he could have it, but at this point he gets revised family and not have that so that he did this exchange.
[00:43:30.150]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what would change under the American families plan is that only $500,000 in game could be deferred, in exchange, like this for real estate, so you have to realize about the 2,950,000 hundred thousand dollars.
[00:43:48.720]Kitt Tovar Jensen: On the exchange that would have about with a million dollar exemption or with a million dollars, now the exemption, but a million dollars being subject 1.95 being subject to the higher or higher ordinary income tax rate for about tax bill about 770 $200,000.
[00:44:09.330]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The medicare tax 3.8% of that for anything over $400,000.
[00:44:14.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Of the game would create a tax bill about $96,900 so you add these all together and what Martin when the current long when he was previously not paying any taxes he's paying over a million dollars in taxes for this exchange or about.
[00:44:30.240]Kitt Tovar Jensen: 28% of the sales price, so the basis would be stopped up again, but this could practically prevent him from moving if he doesn't have a million dollars to do this right.
[00:44:42.540]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So then, if we if, as we wrapping up here, so I can stay on time.
[00:44:49.590]Kitt Tovar Jensen: About little someone leave some time for questions in case people have them, I think I saw some of the chat box, but if we remember.
[00:44:57.300]Kitt Tovar Jensen: what's The one thing we haven't talked about yet right what's the one campaign promise that are that we had talked about a lot, and you thought was going to be bigger.
[00:45:05.310]Kitt Tovar Jensen: it's the state and give tax exemption right and, interestingly, this requirement is not really address the state taxes all.
[00:45:13.920]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We see that the capital, the capital gains tax, a taxation on death or gifting is kind of similar especially ones on death.
[00:45:22.680]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But it's not exactly a State tax, so we don't know that much at this point where we do know is that, without any intervention, the.
[00:45:31.740]Kitt Tovar Jensen: $11.7 million exemption, we have right now it's going to be reset to $5 million in 2026 there'll be some inflation adjustment so might be closer to about $6 million, but i'm.
[00:45:44.460]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Right now it's not until 2026 it's not really impacting a large portion of producers because of the exemption, especially with doubling the amount for married couples, but we'll see if the plan gives us more details if that changes anything if there we need for to just go back down.
[00:46:02.970]Kitt Tovar Jensen: We will just wait and see how that works there was a few other proposals that came out just to remember that they're out there, the step back released by Saturday morning and a few other senators.
[00:46:14.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: very similar to the miracle families plan a few differences like how the exemption for gifting would be treated.
[00:46:24.420]Kitt Tovar Jensen: there's also the 99.5% act introduced by Bernie Sanders and this plan would actually address the.
[00:46:32.730]Kitt Tovar Jensen: The estate tax, it would lower the exemption to $3.5 million and what it also would do is for us the highest state tax rate up to 65%.
[00:46:43.110]Kitt Tovar Jensen: For those estates worth over a billion dollars, I believe it is, and if you've you've heard him talk if you've read.
[00:46:49.770]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Any you know his proposals things like that you know he's he's trying to target the ultra wealthy with this so we'll see if there's some meshing.
[00:46:59.100]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Of these plans or not, but it's good, just to be aware that they're out there, so this is why you all came here today right what what is the likelihood of something like this actually passing.
[00:47:11.100]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And well there was there's more support than I originally anticipated, but I do think there's also quite a bit of resistance which does make this more complicated, with the very, very slim majority democrats have right, because even.
[00:47:26.760]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Democratic legislators who have real constituents have constituents in farming communities they're very concerned about what this exemption will actually look like for.
[00:47:36.690]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Producers what that what it would all say what the family business deferral is they want to see more concrete language other legislators are just.
[00:47:46.680]Kitt Tovar Jensen: very focused on this new tax that would be created with that being with a death being treated like a sale for appreciate property so.
[00:47:59.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: we're not we're not quite quite sure how that will look, and we also have some wild cards right we don't um we have some senators who don't always.
[00:48:08.550]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Vote along party lines and Senator manchin has been in the news a lot, it seems like for what he wants to have proposed things like that, even with the.
[00:48:20.220]Kitt Tovar Jensen: American jobs plan, I heard that anything over 25% for the corporate tax rate, he would not support so.
[00:48:26.970]Kitt Tovar Jensen: One Senator really does have a lot of sway if they want to pass this through either you know to budget reconciliation, or if they want to do this.
[00:48:35.340]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Through normal cycling procedure, the 60 votes would be very comfortable you know what there's just a very slim majority, and we have some things here just that created me to be more interesting I guess i'll say.
[00:48:48.000]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So what is a head with all this, what do we see happening here well.
[00:48:54.060]Kitt Tovar Jensen: First off the Congress is going to try to address the American jobs plan negotiations are currently ongoing with that so that seems to be that's their first priority.
[00:49:02.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And if that American jobs plan fails to pass it looks like then what's going to probably happens the majority is going to move forward.
[00:49:10.350]Kitt Tovar Jensen: And they're going to try to combine the American jobs clan with the American families plan and pass that through budget reconciliation, according to the Senate parliamentarian.
[00:49:21.450]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Budget reconciliation can be used several more times before the next election 2022 so that would be we'll see how that would that would change for how far is.
[00:49:34.080]Kitt Tovar Jensen: It if anything is past what would that look like, though, especially if it has to be passed in a different way than what the original proposal was what compromises are going to have to be made.
[00:49:45.090]Kitt Tovar Jensen: As far as the House goes speaker Pelosi said she wants to like them about by for July, but at this point that's not looking very likely, but you never know things things could change.
[00:49:55.620]Kitt Tovar Jensen: emitted it seems like but we're probably see September, having a boat that seems more likely at this point, and at that point we were probably finally have more concrete information to know.
[00:50:08.190]Kitt Tovar Jensen: More proposals came out of this, you know what made it through what did not get anything it's gonna we're just gonna have to kind of wait and see, unfortunately.
[00:50:18.030]Kitt Tovar Jensen: So here are just some final thoughts remember We just have to.
[00:50:22.650]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Keep keep calm we don't know what's going on yeah, we have to remember that when we're seeing all these crazy newspaper headlines on.
[00:50:29.940]Kitt Tovar Jensen: There really quick baby, they say something to you click them they might not even be completely accurate it but.
[00:50:36.360]Kitt Tovar Jensen: I do, is to also remember that everything we talked about today, these are just proposals there weren't long we'll see what actually comes out of them.
[00:50:43.020]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Because we really can't make any educated decision to either on behalf of our clients or for ourselves because we don't know what will happen, yet, because I do think the devils in the details of.
[00:50:57.780]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What we see happening and what changes if any meaning to make so with that that's all I have, I will take some questions i'm going to stop sharing my screen.
[00:51:10.560]David Baker: And thank you so much kit.
[00:51:13.260]David Baker: This is Dave again, if you would like, I can read off some of the questions as we kind of go through them.
[00:51:20.160]David Baker: Several of the questions asked about whether they can get these sale of farm land examples and the slides and i'm i'm expecting this to be recorded, so I think we'll also have the ability to send out slides that correct Alan.
[00:51:35.100]David Baker: we'll just assume that we can.
[00:51:36.120]Allan Vyhnalek: Yes, yes, we are recording.
[00:51:37.710]David Baker: that's right Okay, so the first questions is is there anything that producers can do now to prepare for these potential changes.
[00:51:47.790]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah that's a great question I think probably a lot of you for coming to these conferences you, you are people who like to be prepared you're like to be ready for these types of things and.
[00:51:58.830]Kitt Tovar Jensen: there's kind of two trains of thought and one is wait and see, and the other is.
[00:52:03.390]Kitt Tovar Jensen: You know gift everything right now, but I would say I don't know if I probably fall into the wait and see camp.
[00:52:09.210]Kitt Tovar Jensen: I would say, if you don't have an attorney or working with our any tax preparer if you are a farm if you're a fewer producer, if this is going to personally affect you guys, and this is not something you specialize in I would make sure you do have a relationship.
[00:52:22.200]Kitt Tovar Jensen: or a business relationship with someone that can help you out here, if you are an attorney tax repair someone like that banker.
[00:52:30.390]Kitt Tovar Jensen: A lot of it is going to be just keep coming into things like this and be right to react when something happens because i'm.
[00:52:37.560]Kitt Tovar Jensen: In the proposal could just look so or the final product that we see here of the legislative package could just be so much different, so I would try to try to be ready as much as you can when we when we get that so.
[00:52:51.450]David Baker: Another question is there any talk about having exceptions exceptions for ag producers to these new rule proposals, and I think you've covered that pretty well in your slides that yes, there's there's talk going all over the place.
[00:53:05.520]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah talk, but i'm in the final I think the final language is going to be so important.
[00:53:12.060]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Because exam exactly what is farming talked about that.
[00:53:17.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What would that definition include came through a brewery on your property and called out a farm if you know new one batch a year I don't think that seems like that would be a stretch, so we just have to wait and see so that's a good question though right.
[00:53:33.180]David Baker: And a follow up question to, that is, when does it differ to well you kind of answered that as well, it differs down the road to some point so yeah it.
[00:53:43.110]Kitt Tovar Jensen: When it seems like it would defer to whenever that is not actively being farmed by family members so sold rented out, possibly to a non family member again, whatever that definition.
[00:53:56.820]Kitt Tovar Jensen: may be so right.
[00:53:59.820]David Baker: And here's an observation by josiah he says, the current law actually encourages sale of land by non farming errs due to the step up in basis, I am not advocating the new form of tax on unrealized gains just making an observation, so thank you just say.
[00:54:17.490]David Baker: Okay sector of egg vilsack had been on radio stating no changes as how it affected egg or farm families, so there again I think there's a lot of forces pushing different different things, but would you want to address what sector egg vilsack who's from iowa.
[00:54:36.360]David Baker: might be thinking.
[00:54:37.950]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah I think that the usda wants farm families to not be impacted rate or even I would go as far to say, I think that they would not want those who have.
[00:54:49.860]Kitt Tovar Jensen: inherited a family farm but aren't actively farming it but don't want to sell it, they have an attachment to it, they don't want those people to have to sell to.
[00:54:59.280]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Especially because I think the usda practically might be thinking, I know, there was a conversation before we got started about attachment to farmland and attachment to land.
[00:55:08.010]Kitt Tovar Jensen: But also um what would this do for the food supply, if a farm is just being sold out from their needs to whatever it is sold for would there be more.
[00:55:19.530]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Just big corporations coming in, or you know how do you distinguish the Bill Gates of the world, who I think owns the most farmland in nebraska right now, they anyone else i'm.
[00:55:28.950]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Compared to these family farms, and I think that there's some other things to their thinking about that they don't necessarily want to.
[00:55:36.210]Kitt Tovar Jensen: squish out the little guy because of the economics important economic importance of it as well, so I think that they don't want it, I think, but you know intention.
[00:55:46.860]Kitt Tovar Jensen: isn't.
[00:55:48.330]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Enough I guess i'll say we have to really make sure this exemption, if there is anything passing.
[00:55:54.780]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What that would do so, even though it seems like the usda wants to help we just have to see what that actually looks like right so.
[00:56:02.250]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah.
[00:56:03.030]David Baker: Gary right mentioned that with the two options shared gifting or wait and see so that's interesting and I guess, I want to thank you for the great presentation, I am going to open it up to the floor if anybody wants to unmute themselves and ask it a question.
[00:56:18.660]David Baker: I guess the other thing Gary mentioned, is there any place for trust ll sees like there again it's kind of a wide open scenario as far as what might take place so.
[00:56:29.310]Kitt Tovar Jensen: yeah I have, I do have one question that came to me that I saw about.
[00:56:33.330]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Okay, restricting or eliminating the taxpayers abilities use trust or boys this appreciation tax or gift tax, and so one thing I did not talk about but that's a very good question.
[00:56:45.150]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Is what about everything else llc or trust things like that, and under the proposal a trust so it's not like a revocable trust, but an irrevocable trust that's usually exempt from.
[00:56:57.720]Kitt Tovar Jensen: Taxation right, it would or a State tax things like that this your vocal trust some things like that would be taxed every 90 years so or an llc is, I believe, as well, so if they base it off 1920 a date, then, so the first taxable 90 year event would be in 2030.
[00:57:18.300]Kitt Tovar Jensen: on any appreciate it again it's supposed to be based off of.
[00:57:23.310]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What the average life Is this how they got the 90 number but um yes, that it that is talk as well, so that's a good one, we have to kind of wait and see what uh.
[00:57:36.600]Kitt Tovar Jensen: What that would look like to that's a good question, it seems like they're they're really hitting everything though every type of tool so um I hope i'm not going too far, over time, I didn't make a promise.
[00:57:46.770]David Baker: To be done, I think you're good is.
[00:57:48.300]David Baker: 1057 and so yeah I would welcome any other questions and.
[00:57:52.290]Allan Vyhnalek: So what I, what I want to do is give everybody a two or three minute break right here, so I think, maybe.
[00:57:56.760]Allan Vyhnalek: Thank you okay very much kit I appreciate very much everybody take a stretch break go visit the restroom if you need to fill your coffee and we'll start again at 11 that's Okay, thank you very much, everyone, you know.
[00:58:09.600]Allan Vyhnalek: Everyone yeah.
[00:58:14.580]Allan Vyhnalek: Take a break we'll be back.
[00:59:49.590]Allan Vyhnalek: So we knew better than to just leave a half hour for the talk about what might happen to.
[00:59:57.540]Allan Vyhnalek: Succession in terms of the taxing rates and that sort of thing so i'm glad that was at least an hour and i'm i'm sorry i'm sure if it had for the further discussion, but again it's all about proposals so with that.
[01:00:10.650]Allan Vyhnalek: Maybe wrote down kits email address and get that from her you know and so i'm going to turn it over right now i'm going to turn it over to brandon who's going to introduce our next speaker.
[01:00:21.090]BDirkschneider: Yes, good afternoon everybody, so we are extremely honored and privileged to have Dr shane conway with us this morning, Dr shane conway is a postdoctoral researcher and the discipline of geographies rural studies at the University, the national University of Ireland and Galloway.
[01:00:38.220]BDirkschneider: Dr conway's research interests are in agricultural real geography, with a particular focus on the older generation farmers interdict intergenerational farm transfer and the human side of farming so.
[01:00:50.880]BDirkschneider: Dr conway has published why wildly on these topics and peer reviewed academic journals and in the research of rural studies and sociologically rural areas so Dr conway we were extremely honored to have you, thank you for being with us today, and looking forward to your discussion.
[01:01:08.670]Shane Conway: Thanks, very much for the introduction, I appreciate it, I just share my screen first and that's, all I can.
[01:01:19.380]Shane Conway: So, can you all see this.
[01:01:23.460]Shane Conway: yep okay so thanks again for having me i'm absolutely delighted and honored to be here.
[01:01:31.890]Shane Conway: and hopefully i'm going to talk about over the next hour resonates with a lot of you and also maybe some take some lessons from us and use in your in your in your country.
[01:01:45.030]Shane Conway: it's cross cultures, but hopefully this commonalities, and this is the title of my presentation essentially exploring the human dynamics of fam succession retirement and leisure life so predominantly from the older generations perspective.
[01:02:00.570]Shane Conway: So just, of course, a little about me I was introduced, but I just wanted to give you a little bit of context as to where i'm coming from before I start.
[01:02:08.010]Shane Conway: You can see there that's gone away on the west coast of Ireland and that's the rural Studies Unit.
[01:02:14.340]Shane Conway: On the bottom right that's our team there we received an award for a societal impact and the President of the university is in the middle of so.
[01:02:22.260]Shane Conway: You know, we always try we try not to work in academics silo we all try to this output for research, we find it very important so.
[01:02:31.020]Shane Conway: And I completed my PhD here in 2017 and i've been working in research and lecturing.
[01:02:37.350]Shane Conway: sense and also, I just wanted to point out that I have a good grounding and, in this situation issues in the US, I spent a Semester and uc Davis and cultural issues entrance thousand 15.
[01:02:50.190]Shane Conway: For a Semester and was there, I had a relationship built for john baker and involves an international firm transfer survey which i'll talk about in a while and john.
[01:03:00.870]Shane Conway: enjoy kindly invited me to take part in the firm succession coordinator training in Madison.
[01:03:07.290]Shane Conway: University of Madison Wisconsin and so yeah it was great experience completed the training and obtain the certification so and and twice there you know what john was.
[01:03:17.910]Shane Conway: Really, you know so helpful and accommodating and you know, give me a tour of iowa countryside, and you know, really, really got to go to an.
[01:03:27.480]Shane Conway: in depth experience, so I have to mention that I also met Davis was there, so you know really more than welcome, and you know, I just wanted to point out there's.
[01:03:37.890]Shane Conway: Any last lessons that I did learn the West side moving forward with my PhD over the next two years I was able to kind of.
[01:03:44.070]Shane Conway: implement them in them sort of, especially in the recommendations, and I can explain that, as a gwan.
[01:03:50.100]Shane Conway: A bit about me as well, I really it was brought up yesterday about the soul and you know being grounded in the in the farming community and the importance of this trust.
[01:04:00.330]Shane Conway: So, like it's in academic terms it's your position ality so like i'm from a farm and farmer.
[01:04:06.510]Shane Conway: three generations there on the top right that's me in the middle, but you know that's that's my background that's what i've been brought up with.
[01:04:13.350]Shane Conway: You know, since as long as I can remember, so when I went into farmers, for example, I didn't you know, introduce myself as this academic you know nothing pretentious who is that i'm a farmer son.
[01:04:23.760]Shane Conway: And you know chatting about the weather the stairs and price the cattle or whatever, and then you know the warranty and they do.
[01:04:30.420]Shane Conway: Because what we talked about on which i'll explain was quite deep stuff there's.
[01:04:34.830]Shane Conway: As you know, the in the West part in Ireland, especially as a generation there they don't really express themselves to her So this was actually a new territory for a lot of them boss.
[01:04:43.560]Shane Conway: I think, because of my position ality there was a little bit more of a trust trust is the main thing when you're carrying on research with target audiences so.
[01:04:51.630]Shane Conway: Before I you know start talking about my research, I have to set the scene, as to the context of agriculture and Ireland and the importance of a tour economy and kind of the way agriculture works in the European context as well.
[01:05:06.930]Shane Conway: Because there's no point me just talking about the issues without giving a context so.
[01:05:10.770]Shane Conway: In ireland's you know the AGRI food industry is exceptionally important 26 billion to the national economy, and we have to remember it's a small country.
[01:05:18.540]Shane Conway: And 12% of Irish exports and national employment 50% and I suppose Davis mentioned it yesterday about the knock on effects to rural communities and so like.
[01:05:30.390]Shane Conway: This has got to do with the size of the fans, which I will mention but there's 130 7000 firms in Ireland about 50% of them farm part time.
[01:05:40.350]Shane Conway: So without family farming in Ireland, you know the rural communities will be decimated, you know the be less children the schools, you know local sports so it's it's a real central.
[01:05:51.330]Shane Conway: Part of our culture and our economy, so you know when we look at our exports, for example.
[01:05:57.600]Shane Conway: This is the way it's broken down uttered really a third, a third to the international UK in new markets.
[01:06:03.720]Shane Conway: And 13 billion and so it's it's about 67% since 2010 or food experts 10 success of your growth, so you know what we're looking at here is a really there's so much potential in this industry.
[01:06:17.400]Shane Conway: And it can just as it's really a story what i'm going to tell you, as I talked about my research, so this is the grounding of like what we're dealing with 180 markets worldwide.
[01:06:27.480]Shane Conway: You know just trying to point out the importance of it so.
[01:06:30.660]Shane Conway: This is just one example, so Ireland supplies 10% of all global in May and infant milk formula and the Irish food boards figures so it's the second largest exporter of infant mental for me to China.
[01:06:43.290]Shane Conway: As a lot of babies in China just just the graph there just to show that you know, on average, maybe 15 million a year born so It just shows you that the scale of.
[01:06:51.720]Shane Conway: kind of the outputs that we have, and I think we're the third largest exporter of bowsher as well.
[01:06:58.050]Shane Conway: And I suppose you know, I just wanted to put this here just to show you the scale of what we're talking about so.
[01:07:04.200]Shane Conway: You know when i'm talking about you know we're competing as a global level, but yet this is where we would be that's our and, of course, that agreeing there.
[01:07:11.160]Shane Conway: And also you just got to kind of take into account that this area here is the north of Ireland, the six counties there and that's actually not included in our.
[01:07:20.460]Shane Conway: In the figures i'm talking about because they're prior to Britain essentially so that that's the scale we're talking about and the population is not even 5 million so.
[01:07:29.700]Shane Conway: Just to kind of show you where we're situations, but yes it's it's an incredibly competitive market we're dealing and and, as far as like when you think about this, this is probably what says, you know we have grass growth.
[01:07:43.170]Shane Conway: Throughout the year because of our temperate climates.
[01:07:46.140]Shane Conway: And you know, and also the by diversity in the in the Latin the landscape, the fields are quite small so not only is it the is it a green like the stereotypical green.
[01:07:56.610]Shane Conway: But yes, you know we can market this and we have been marketing this it's a key you know people are really cognizant of where their food is coming from and.
[01:08:05.250]Shane Conway: You know this could be parents and parents lover of why we're able to America so even our Irish food board or governments, you know talks about local rules global reach.
[01:08:15.090]Shane Conway: And, of course, you know this whole patchwork quilters landscape of ours is always at the forefront it's got to do with marketing again, but just kind of shows you the competitive side of this.
[01:08:26.130]Shane Conway: And, but yes, you know when we talk about when we talk about this and the figures and the 10th success of year of growth with exports and.
[01:08:34.500]Shane Conway: there's an aging farming population, and this is really raising concerns not just an Irish level European level about the the guaranteed food production in the coming decades, because of this aging population.
[01:08:47.670]Shane Conway: So this is the demographic trends that close to one third of European farmers are above the normal retirement age of 65.
[01:08:56.850]Shane Conway: And only 5.6% are owned by farmers under the age of 35.
[01:09:01.110]Shane Conway: And it's estimated that, for every young farmer, there are nine older farmers, so this is, this is the demographic trends, this is the concern and so just this is just a breakdown across Europe, the darker colors is the higher percentage of.
[01:09:15.630]Shane Conway: older farmers over 55 in this case, so you can see ireland's here jack or the UK exception it's been an old referring.
[01:09:25.380]Shane Conway: easily so Germany, not so much could we got to do is historical issues there i'm not sure about this is just generally the way it's kind of broken down, and even this is across gender and just to show you that it's not just a patient.
[01:09:43.500]Shane Conway: In relation to this it's kind of across genders, that this aging population, and this in an Irish context, then I just wanted to show you this graph from the Central Statistics Office there's, this is the way we're broken down so again.
[01:09:58.860]Shane Conway: You know, talking about five to 6% under 35 and the majority are over 55 and to break that down further.
[01:10:07.800]Shane Conway: You can see the brown here is 65 and over so you're talking to her dividers farmers are over 65 which yes.
[01:10:16.710]Shane Conway: You know, when I was talking about the figures of exports and growth, you know they're contributing to this but yes that's the way it is, and you know.
[01:10:25.440]Shane Conway: there's a lot of different factors for that, and you know the the as I will talk about as we move through the presentation or Sam that's the way on paper, it looks as if you were to break it down so.
[01:10:39.150]Shane Conway: This grain of the farming population as it's been called and refer to is a pressing matter in modern Europe, because they the terminology that's being used in in Europe is the generation rent renewal and agriculture is crucial.
[01:10:55.140]Shane Conway: To the industry to the traditional family fare model that was referred to in the previous presentation, you know, the thing with.
[01:11:02.430]Shane Conway: The family farm there actually isn't a universal definition of family farm, so you know it's quite as was mentioned it's quite tricky to kind of hone in on.
[01:11:11.550]Shane Conway: And the broad senators your rural community, so you know in in relation to this, this whole generation renewal and getting the young people on the land is a key objective of the European Common Agricultural Policy horse 20.
[01:11:24.810]Shane Conway: That has been delayed now because of breaks that we're kind of waiting and waiting for this to happen, but the brexit was an issue, because the borgias had to be reduced, and all the calls with that was.
[01:11:35.730]Shane Conway: The last CAP, for example, and provide us, both in terms of the European budget is 350 billion going towards agriculture, and I suppose.
[01:11:46.890]Shane Conway: reason for this is, this is about 10.3 million firms in Europe family farms, I suppose, and you know, two thirds of those are less than 12 acres.
[01:12:00.870]Shane Conway: So, like you're talking at a very small scale, so they need support so CAP, you know it's really.
[01:12:07.680]Shane Conway: Funding farming and to project the small food producers, and so this is kind of what you're talking about this is the sport that's there, and these are the nine objectives of the future CAP.
[01:12:19.230]Shane Conway: i'm sure, as you know, you can relate to all these any US context, this you know, climate change, action environmentally care.
[01:12:28.110]Shane Conway: protect food policy vibrant rural areas, but this is the one here support generation are new so it's one of the key objectives.
[01:12:36.360]Shane Conway: and moving forward, and you know there's a lot of publications about this young farmers soldier the representation for young farmers in Europe marker in a farmer and in Ireland so that's so.
[01:12:49.920]Shane Conway: You know, when we talk with generation are new you know I like to point out those it goes beyond reduction in the average age of the firm's.
[01:12:57.120]Shane Conway: You know it's about empowering a new generation of qualified farmers to bring the full benefits of technology to the table, and this kind of relates, you know.
[01:13:07.590]Shane Conway: To what David spoke about yesterday is where's the younger generations leverage or their leverage, as they have the technological the kind of.
[01:13:16.290]Shane Conway: awareness and skill set and move forward vs GPS systems robotic milking machines and you know the mobile phones, I suppose, with covert and the lockdown and.
[01:13:29.400]Shane Conway: Farmers having to go online to buy animals it's also a bit of a kind of a real steep learning curve for a lot of farmers, which was probably a good thing in a way.
[01:13:38.850]Shane Conway: But yes, the younger generation looking for more independence and responsibility, perhaps got to do with generational issues as well that's such a generation isn't going to accept what the previous state.
[01:13:50.460]Shane Conway: So yeah and in ireland's particularly and there's a renewed interest in pursuing farming as a career.
[01:13:57.690]Shane Conway: And this is really reflected by the upsurge in demand for education and training in agriculture.
[01:14:03.540]Shane Conway: And this is, you know it's it's quite evidence only recently in February, I suppose there's in the west of Ireland, and we have to remember this.
[01:14:12.720]Shane Conway: Ireland is kind of like a saucer the landscape around the coastline it's kind of mountainous enough and it's not very productive and in the middle, then it's quite flash.
[01:14:23.520]Shane Conway: But for the west of Ireland, you know you're talking about quite small firms like sheep farmers probably their income isn't as not as like five.
[01:14:31.200]Shane Conway: viability of the firm's isn't as strong as the dairy sector, which is you know, on the westward and, of course, of 200 places within six minutes is it was fill those and switch over 1000 people interested, so I just wanted to give you that example and those famous journalist, the huge.
[01:14:49.800]Shane Conway: Journalism like publications in Ireland across media print media online so yeah they kind of really get the message out there what's going on.
[01:15:00.840]Shane Conway: So the way it's kind of word just in Irish in European context is land mobility, so that would be either the transfer of land from one generation to the next, or one farmer to the next, so.
[01:15:12.600]Shane Conway: access to land, a session, essentially, so this is reported to be the single largest barrier facing on people entering the agricultural sector.
[01:15:23.190]Shane Conway: And the lack of lamb ability is stifling growth by preventing and young enthusiastic farmers by gaining access to productive assets and the productive acid is land.
[01:15:32.490]Shane Conway: So just in Ireland there is firm sizes 80 acres and so you know it's it's it's when you put that into context in relation to access to land, the average.
[01:15:46.740]Shane Conway: eight per acre average prices about 9000 and ireland's So if you wanted to have an average farm size, you know you're talking like you know you have to over 700,000 for.
[01:15:56.520]Shane Conway: You know it's it's exceptionally hard to get into firing if it's not through inheritance or.
[01:16:02.040]Shane Conway: or foreign transfer in lifetime, the farmer, so you know less than one and then more even more less than 1% of agricultural land and Ireland comes on the open America is over a year.
[01:16:13.860]Shane Conway: And I suppose you only have to look at when I was talking about attachment to land but it's very prevalent here, you have to remember that Ireland is 100 years old this year we got her independence.
[01:16:26.340]Shane Conway: In 1921 from Britain, so, as always, like my grandparents, you know they've listened to their parents or grandparents speaking about you know they have now own the land so so sellers as a kind of a.
[01:16:40.440]Shane Conway: unheard of almost as a hell of a stigma to sell your land so it's a it's a real it's a real issue when you come to a young farmer wants to expand, though, and this this lack of access to land, so.
[01:16:53.700]Shane Conway: What Jeff, this is a kind of a statistic that was drawn up in economists, that on average once every 400 years compared to in France every seven years it's kind of a novel way to look at it, but just to show you how hard it is, and so, when we look at all this.
[01:17:10.380]Shane Conway: Putting a bit of context behind us, this is why the area of interest generation firm transfers is a really topical and important issue moving forward, but it's complex as well, more than anything, and.
[01:17:25.770]Shane Conway: So you know it's it's targeted process as well, so the younger generation, the older generation have a reluctance to step aside, and I suppose.
[01:17:33.990]Shane Conway: We to go back to maybe 2013 when I started this research, this was really the language that was out there, there was no real it was an anecdotal evidence of why, but there was no research carried out as to as to why.
[01:17:47.130]Shane Conway: And so, this was kind of what I was dealing with and there's a lot of financial enticements psm.
[01:17:53.610]Shane Conway: retirement schemes, for example, but this aging population was such an issue, so you know I like to put up this slide because you know you have to think about put into context, especially to if i'm presenting to students and university and they might be from a farming background.
[01:18:11.730]Shane Conway: And granted this was written in 1996 and Prince Charles certain same situation, I was he was then, but basically he's still not the boss.
[01:18:20.670]Shane Conway: Essentially, and you're talking about a lot of older farmers might be in their late 50s to 60s, but yes.
[01:18:26.460]Shane Conway: Their Daddy or mommy mother, father are still the one with this is in control who manages the firm, so you know, this is, this is an issue.
[01:18:35.460]Shane Conway: Because again generationally will the millennials or whatever be willing to wait around until then to to take over and to stamp their authority on the way the firm is wrong.
[01:18:49.560]Shane Conway: So there's been a lot of disconnect us and policy efforts to try and mobilize this and I suppose.
[01:18:57.810]Shane Conway: Up until perhaps my research and impactors made sense there wasn't a consideration put on the attachment to the older generation, the older generations attachment to their firm and occupation.
[01:19:11.310]Shane Conway: And there was the formulation of largely unsuccessful strategies and I think you know if I had to.
[01:19:18.780]Shane Conway: You know, try to wrap up in one sentence why I did what I did for my research or justify excuse me why I did what I did.
[01:19:27.750]Shane Conway: The previous retirement scheme, the most recent but it's back in 2017 one of the key terms and conditions for this was that person's intending to retire under the scheme, she had ceased agricultural activity forever.
[01:19:41.670]Shane Conway: And that's word for words like that was essentially takedown policy Nash, with an understanding of the farming way of life for the mindset.
[01:19:51.510]Shane Conway: You know, to cease and apparently those fines if you're seeing to be participating in any form, so you essentially weren't even as a farmer told me, and when I was interviewing.
[01:20:00.510]Shane Conway: It was like I wasn't able to have a pair of Wellington boots it was that extreme so there was essentially being.
[01:20:06.750]Shane Conway: asked to revise their self perceptions of the world upon retirement if they were to evade this so I was oblivious to the mindsets and.
[01:20:15.150]Shane Conway: When I started this so I had to communicate that those are need to look beyond financial enticements alone.
[01:20:21.120]Shane Conway: This is not just about you know here's the lump sum every month, please retire and sail off into the sunset you know this is.
[01:20:29.070]Shane Conway: Certainly not the way it is in an Irish context and I from listening to you yesterday and from my time and us before I can I definitely think you can resonate with this as well how much of an issue, this was.
[01:20:40.740]Shane Conway: So my research by its kind of break it down like a challenge this one dimensional approach and delve deeper into the mindset of magic mannerisms to identify the human dynamics.
[01:20:51.840]Shane Conway: And they refer to it as the twin process of firm succession and retirement in later life, and you can fit in and her son's into that as well because he's insertions so you know the.
[01:21:05.820]Shane Conway: cover this layer of attachments that they have to their feminine body contents was important as well, because the land, the animals are just important.
[01:21:16.770]Shane Conway: You know, dairy dairy farmers with two or 300 catalytic identify each one of them by their tag number that might have even names for some of them, so you know it doesn't matter what age where.
[01:21:26.310]Shane Conway: you're going to have that attachment to your animals and understand the world is farmers procedures in later life and to communicate that to policy that.
[01:21:34.590]Shane Conway: you've had these schemes in place, but this is the way pharmacy it so take north.
[01:21:41.100]Shane Conway: And this will inform future strategies there's have a good understanding of both generations and then hopefully by having two sizes of stories we can move forward in a more kind of progressive way.
[01:21:53.100]Shane Conway: And you know to break this down again like this was the first geographical sociological essentially social science study of this issue, and since the pioneering research by Dr the late Dr paki comments and.
[01:22:09.570]Shane Conway: In the 1970s and really he was a spearheaded this this this kind of notion that there was a bigger picture, but yes.
[01:22:18.030]Shane Conway: He carried out this research in the 1970s, which had our governments in 2007 device to retirement scheme that was asking them to see spamming forever and under no circumstances series supposed to have any role so.
[01:22:30.180]Shane Conway: Really, I hope I played you know I hope I did his research proud, by tackling this again saying listen guys.
[01:22:37.050]Shane Conway: This is, this has been brought up and brought up but you're not listening so, but the air listening now so that's what i'm going to try and communicate as as we move forward.
[01:22:45.660]Shane Conway: But I also want to point out this i'm looking at it from this perspective authors, researchers and academics, Dr Thomas Russell Dr Brian Leonard colleague again Dr and cast.
[01:22:59.730]Shane Conway: cast the all in an Irish context, looking at it from the economics of us the legislation of us the access to land, the gender aspect of it so we've all worked on different sides of this and we're all importing into.
[01:23:13.920]Shane Conway: into policy at the moment, so we're trying to cover all angles, like i'm certainly not an expert in economics.
[01:23:19.380]Shane Conway: The legislation but yes there's someone else that's working you know quite closely aligns with research, we are published papers we all finished our PhDs around the same time, so you know we're working as a team now, and this is a really important side of it as well.
[01:23:37.200]Shane Conway: So you like, you know how did I come across the the.
[01:23:43.110]Shane Conway: it's all well and good, having all these ideas, but how did I get the data.
[01:23:47.640]Shane Conway: So i'll break it down as to wash our each in a moment, but, as you can see, there was almost 1000 farmers.
[01:23:55.080]Shane Conway: involved over the course of two years and they're in the research side of it, the gathering of the research and it's qualitative and quantitative saw the interviews and surveys working together, the first one here was Chagas.
[01:24:09.330]Shane Conway: Firm advisory body in Ireland huge body recognizes across Europe as a best practice because they have advisory research and education, all under the same umbrella.
[01:24:19.110]Shane Conway: They held a series they have about 80,000 farming clients in Ireland and they held a series of transferring the family farm clinics.
[01:24:26.340]Shane Conway: In 2014 and they've held them every year since and, as you can see it's located across the country all these clinics and I attended, each one of them had a questionnaire there and the way it was set up this, this was a it was like.
[01:24:42.390]Shane Conway: The farmers attended first 10 or 15 minutes, there was a chat about general issues, but there was boots settle ball around the room solicitors.
[01:24:51.840]Shane Conway: And accountants, the banks were there, and the farmers, could you know go into each accordingly, whatever their issue was to talk about this and the succession issue.
[01:25:02.370]Shane Conway: And why is there a waiting for example I was there to kind of pitch my research to them and ask them what their interests are so.
[01:25:08.610]Shane Conway: Over the course of the meetings, there was 417 questionnaires carried out, and because i'm not going to dollar generation 324 over 55.
[01:25:17.340]Shane Conway: But, most importantly, because this wasn't just a tick the box, am I attached to my farm, yes, which would be of no use in such an in depth study.
[01:25:26.700]Shane Conway: 60% of them, which was 194 actually supplied their contact details for interview at a later date.
[01:25:33.090]Shane Conway: So, again that's probably got to do with the position as a they saw those you know the farmer song, because you know this slide wasn't trying to like infiltration our privacy trying to learn, you know it's it's it was really important and because.
[01:25:47.610]Shane Conway: It was under 94 I ran a systematic sample of this, so I interview 10% of them, and because the clinics for locations throughout the country the interviews then.
[01:25:57.930]Shane Conway: Were were carried out throughout the country so and it's probably important to point that out as well, because, as I said, you know along cost years close peripheral.
[01:26:06.330]Shane Conway: A lot of sheep farm is probably not the most productive, but when you're dealing with these counties here, and you know low lying land very productive.
[01:26:15.300]Shane Conway: quite large dairy farms very profitable and so i've got a mix of both so all the farming community was represented in the study and so yeah again the position ality kind of helps me with that, and you know moving forward like i'll talk about each as we go on, but six.
[01:26:36.180]Shane Conway: Separate separate papers but they're interrelated, they all look at it from a different aspects when we're looking at the human and social side of this and.
[01:26:46.170]Shane Conway: What published in these journals and peer reviewed journals and they explore the human dynamics from a different from our surrounding this process was I was talking about, but from a different theoretical base.
[01:26:59.310]Shane Conway: Which is social science social theories and i'll kind of mentioned them as we move along, but the the papers all supposed to tie into each other.
[01:27:08.460]Shane Conway: So the first one, you know the type lovers was to question that policy cease agricultural activity forever, you know question mark what what does that mean and underestimating them parts of symbolic capital so symbolic capital really is.
[01:27:22.380]Shane Conway: a term of pure boards you a sociologist in France, and we all have capital in our life we economic capsule, which is our assets we social capital, which would be our friends or networks cultural capital, which would be a family tree, essentially, you know or.
[01:27:36.540]Shane Conway: or history or look as he and then symbolic capital encapsulates all that and that's our that's our status in society that's really when you combine everything we have you know.
[01:27:48.450]Shane Conway: So, for example, like if I publish a paper, for example, it's not really worth anything in you know monetary value Polish enhance my reputation, I want to answer reputation, you have more kind of.
[01:28:00.090]Shane Conway: Your stature in in a certain context, so this paper looked at the psychodynamic and socio economic factors influencing the the reluctance.
[01:28:10.650]Shane Conway: For the older generation and it's identified that there's a clear disconnect between the previous and existing policy measures with the mindset of its target audience population.
[01:28:22.410]Shane Conway: So farming is more than economic activity and again like anecdotally this was what was on the ground chest common knowledge, but they'll hadn't been research to back it up.
[01:28:33.990]Shane Conway: And so that the decision making process doesn't notice that here it's the economic school tours owning to these emotional ties so it's not really logical and lots of cases, because of emotional ties and because of all that the human side has been overlooked.
[01:28:50.910]Shane Conway: So this potential loss of identity and status upon transferring the manager in control, not to mind ownership, but even managerial control as a dilemma that they find difficult to accept.
[01:29:02.790]Shane Conway: And a huge cultural expectation through the interview is that farmers don't retire.
[01:29:08.490]Shane Conway: And there's a negative perception of those do retire because there's the good farmer identity is tied up on someone who is a hard worker.
[01:29:15.390]Shane Conway: And dies with our boots on, for example, so to be seen to kind of step outside at her to take the easy route, this is, you know to Wales interpreters is a difficult for them to accept, and you know they really do wish to remain active and productive and later life.
[01:29:31.110]Shane Conway: This is just a point in a few quotes just to kind of bring it to life.
[01:29:34.830]Shane Conway: And this is a 72 year old dairy farmer from the southeast the country have I considered retiring never and then he proceeded to tell me how hard he worked up every morning half six and go on to 10 or 11 or Nice he probably.
[01:29:47.190]Shane Conway: You might even have been but he wants me to know how hard of a worker, he was at 72 years of age and then at the.
[01:29:53.160]Shane Conway: At the end of the interview he didn't crack a SMILEY meant this 100% i'm only 72 like so definitely enough for a few more years and that just shows you that.
[01:30:02.760]Shane Conway: really like this, this notion of like they have to keep going it's part and parcel of who the air.
[01:30:09.210]Shane Conway: Another farmer and talks about you know, causing a drift a farmer at that stage of the life will leave them in a very lonely place.
[01:30:16.740]Shane Conway: And there's you know they're so attached to their occupation or kind of defined to the air and last census and to to you know it's it's it's could affect their emotional well being.
[01:30:27.240]Shane Conway: The next paper looked at this notion of symbolic power, so I suppose, when you have symbolic capital, you have an authority, you have your status, you have your prestige and the community within the family, even and.
[01:30:38.010]Shane Conway: You have this power to supposed to influence what goes on, because you're the hierarchy, I suppose, has been influenced.
[01:30:45.750]Shane Conway: So this paper identify the micro politics and managerial power dynamics at play within farm households and you know the senior generations reluctance to alter the status quo.
[01:30:58.290]Shane Conway: of their management and ownership, you know the management is a key one here because it's not just about transferring the farm it's about you know what the decisions that are made.
[01:31:06.990]Shane Conway: And as an under undoubtedly strong, so you know those these asymmetric hierarchy relations within firm households that that are sustained, but a veiled.
[01:31:17.970]Shane Conway: A lot of cases veil but powerful mix of Defense mechanisms and tactics almost delivered through everyday channels of communication, so that reiterated.
[01:31:26.910]Shane Conway: indispensability you know, to the fair and how important they are their knowledge, you know you know.
[01:31:31.890]Shane Conway: Imposing once mindset there's you know, this is the way we've always done it this way, we should do is to convert system of farming, for example, you know.
[01:31:40.740]Shane Conway: Why would we get into dairy, for example, we've always done is, we have the land here for for sheep farming, you know this is that the judgment of the younger generations and bit.
[01:31:50.370]Shane Conway: unilateral acts of generosity and other one that comes to for this, you know they might give them five heifers are 10 you know.
[01:31:59.130]Shane Conway: Young balls and say okay here's this, for now, and you know kind of prolonging yes and researching their authority, and that was a really key one because.
[01:32:08.850]Shane Conway: They may be in firm partnerships official form partnerships, but yes, as time have done everything nothing changed was that the fact that they could say the apprenticeship with actual management.
[01:32:22.830]Shane Conway: managerial decisions are still the older generation, so you know, this is an example of that you know, even though most of the firm is now saved over to my son.
[01:32:32.760]Shane Conway: And I still do the viral work, you see, I signed the checkbox and that's kind of stuff very kind of flippantly saying that you know I control the finances still.
[01:32:42.420]Shane Conway: And even though you know my son is is you know actively like having a big role here, and so that was kind of looking at the REP status of the farmers their personal perceptions and the power dynamics, but another thing that came to the fore.
[01:33:00.240]Shane Conway: Throughout the throughout the research and I had to write a separate paper on was that.
[01:33:04.770]Shane Conway: it's not just about their occupation that they have the passionate about that the firm and again this is, you know common across cultures, because.
[01:33:12.420]Shane Conway: This is inside, and this was actually a theory that i've used from appalachia in Kentucky in that area.
[01:33:20.370]Shane Conway: it's i'll talk about in a moment, but it's it's a theory that i've used from the US and to explain this firm or farm attachment that i'm talking about.
[01:33:29.190]Shane Conway: And this gives a there's a multi layer relationship relational life this really reinforced the argument that farming is not an economic activity and famine and somebody content, so this is.
[01:33:42.060]Shane Conway: The theory so autograph we all have this again and, like physical inciting a social and sadness and autobiographical insiders so you know where you live, your roost in place.
[01:33:52.050]Shane Conway: Social and sinus legitimate connectedness by where you live to the US to your community and cells in our soldier.
[01:33:58.380]Shane Conway: You know if you're being embedded in this Community or parents have lived there, so the farmer family shift in consciousness, a lot of this.
[01:34:05.580]Shane Conway: And because of that it's again it's hard to step away to retire to move to the local town to you know, to step away from all this so it's just another way of looking at.
[01:34:17.220]Shane Conway: From the from this perspective, and again I always tried to bring the courts to bring it to life, because this is exactly.
[01:34:23.820]Shane Conway: kind of the mindset that's going on, you know talking about if I go away on holidays for a few days i'll be anxious to get back to the fair might be missing, as you see.
[01:34:32.100]Shane Conway: might be way out of my depth living somewhere else and families, you five from the Midlands and you know shock to the system not to be farming anymore, no longer able to talk the same talk with other dairy farmers about.
[01:34:43.950]Shane Conway: Milk years butterfat i'd hate to be able to the loop so that's why I need to stay in touch and continue continue daring with my son.
[01:34:51.390]Shane Conway: So you can see it like really this really encompasses a lot of who the air.
[01:34:56.220]Shane Conway: And I know that we can all advocate for the younger generation and it's very easy, you know it's essential moving forward, but we can't forget about this mindset these mannerisms these people, because this is a really part of who they are, this is who there.
[01:35:11.910]Shane Conway: Again, you know, to talk about the fam you know you're tied into a long history i'm only a spoke in the wheel of this firm story i'm only a caretaker.
[01:35:21.360]Shane Conway: You know this sort of generational aspect again.
[01:35:24.810]Shane Conway: And this is an old Irish proverb kneeling hint on my the entire thing means no there's no fireplace like our own fireplace essentially no place like home, so that really comes to the forum moving moving through the research.
[01:35:36.810]Shane Conway: And so, this is a general discussion before I move on to future directions awesome you know the reluctance to all say scores I mentioned is strong.
[01:35:47.550]Shane Conway: The reasons are expensive, but the common denominator is that this intergenerational firm transition transfers about emotion, it comes to the fore, no matter what we look at us and.
[01:36:00.660]Shane Conway: And the challenge of transition is overwhelming for a growing number of older farmers and there is a growing number.
[01:36:07.320]Shane Conway: And you know when we talk about in Ireland are often referred to as the soft tissues.
[01:36:12.450]Shane Conway: And I the Community, you know the social emotional factors as far as the communication side of as well, but you know, these can be pulled into.
[01:36:22.500]Shane Conway: A an economic model, they can be broken down by statistics and you know policy finds it very difficult to deal with this side of it, so these really are the hard issues.
[01:36:32.280]Shane Conway: You know the soft tissues, you know depends on the interpreter out there, they are hard issues.
[01:36:37.320]Shane Conway: So you know the whole language of farming and model actually means so you know the old generation ultimately decides does farm transfer happen or not suppose they hold the key because they own the land and the land is so valuable and so.
[01:36:54.810]Shane Conway: policy if they don't understand what it means to them if they don't understand how to try and work this out to try and communicate this in a more kind of a positive aspect, rather than.
[01:37:06.360]Shane Conway: Please retire step aside cease forever, you know we don't need you anymore it's if it doesn't understand that language affirming it's it's not going to be any.
[01:37:16.080]Shane Conway: benefit of success, so you know, a cultural shift on this age or problem is requires, so we need to have more kind of.
[01:37:24.240]Shane Conway: Informed intelligent interventions and I published a paper and this and then shasha Journal of our cultural management just stand up sighs what i'm going to talk about us.
[01:37:34.170]Shane Conway: You know farmer sensitive policy design and to address the emotional and social.
[01:37:40.440]Shane Conway: well being of all the farmers, you know, has the potential to ease the stress so there's a stigma attached with all this.
[01:37:48.720]Shane Conway: promote more positive, so you know early retirement scheme when farmers here that worse than that term or that phrase, I really can't even imagine.
[01:37:58.080]Shane Conway: Whatever about retiring but retiring early like at 55 to 66 the previous retirements game was but.
[01:38:04.920]Shane Conway: Just remember back to the Prince Charles syndrome, a lot of them i've only got control of the firm when they're 57 and then they expect to retire, so it just doesn't add up, you know the way it's broken down so.
[01:38:16.530]Shane Conway: To try and maybe show this is more of a if you were to transfer it to progress the farm it's a progression, we can learn from what you've learned and progress moving forward and.
[01:38:28.950]Shane Conway: You know portray the sense of purpose and.
[01:38:32.700]Shane Conway: Like you know you really have to remember, and we all know here that the older generation hold an invaluable store of.
[01:38:37.650]Shane Conway: ugly knowledge developed over years of working on the farm, that the younger generation haven't accumulated just yet, and this is called the soil specific human capital.
[01:38:47.670]Shane Conway: And it's not easily transferred communication learned bubble, so the old generation and the younger generation need to work side by side.
[01:38:55.140]Shane Conway: So you know I usually an example again when i'm speaking to either students or you know this, think about.
[01:39:01.110]Shane Conway: A young agricultural science students, they go to ucsd University College, Dublin, which is one of the leading edge schools and internationally, they do animal and crop production.
[01:39:11.850]Shane Conway: Their top of their class and they get their first class honors degree, and then they go home, to say the West version, for example.
[01:39:21.990]Shane Conway: And they try to apply what they learned in college, you know, in the books, you know, the way that I call is just have the most.
[01:39:31.650]Shane Conway: amazing firms and they try to apply what they learned.
[01:39:35.730]Shane Conway: There at home and the older generation goes always second this field is this this time of year this field is this.
[01:39:41.670]Shane Conway: don't do that in this field, so the old generation have this knowledge of the land, you know, in a different environment there's.
[01:39:47.190]Shane Conway: really needs to be, we need to work side by side, or the younger generation on to understand this.
[01:39:52.740]Shane Conway: And I know this, you know they have worked through the years and their teenage years but to have that influence externally from research and from a college you kind of get a little bit complacent that that's going to work everywhere so.
[01:40:05.940]Shane Conway: You know, and instead of reporting that all these the older generation basically are are stubborn and they're not going to change and they're there.
[01:40:14.400]Shane Conway: You know, we need to embrace this side of the argument that old generation actually are very important, and we need to embrace their skills and knowledge, and we need to come up with a kind of a.
[01:40:25.140]Shane Conway: way of working on this and trying to merge both, and you know, in Ireland, you know, there are clubs for farming arrangements such as far and partnerships that are you know idea of stepping stones on paper, really.
[01:40:39.510]Shane Conway: What i've been talking about about trying to get bored generations working together and.
[01:40:44.760]Shane Conway: You know, as they tick all the boxes boasts they haven't been addressing the power dynamics, which identifies at play so you know, this is where the international transition network comes in and the facilitator, training and comes into play and and I really try to.
[01:41:06.630]Shane Conway: emphasize the importance of that that this has been.
[01:41:11.280]Shane Conway: Exceptionally, like this has been driven home as the solution to all the problems, but yes it's not working in the way it should be working and so there's no easily.
[01:41:24.000]Shane Conway: it's not an easy process to work out, but it needs to be handled professionally, so this is when I really push this an Irish context and even my research there's such a firm succession facilitator training is essential.
[01:41:37.560]Shane Conway: And you know a lot of people sign up to these various partnerships and pay money to get them signed off on their work on.
[01:41:48.060]Shane Conway: coming up with a but they have never there's no criteria that succession planning is part of.
[01:41:55.380]Shane Conway: A foreign partnership so they could just sign the dotted line and go yeah, which is the hierarchy, the status quo remains the same so it's about.
[01:42:04.950]Shane Conway: If there was a criteria there's okay if you're going to avail of a firm partnership you actually have to sit through sessions or a succession facilitator to talk about what's next because, if not.
[01:42:17.010]Shane Conway: they're the hierarchy of family firms, is it could remain the same so it's a little avail of little benefit to the younger generation.
[01:42:25.710]Shane Conway: So you know, this is probably be you know we're aware of this, because I, this is, you know I tried to bring what I learned in the US when Irish context.
[01:42:33.840]Shane Conway: And the guide them through the in an unbiased manner and where you want where where is the farm now where he wants to be how'd you get there and I.
[01:42:42.810]Shane Conway: think it was speaking to john back in 2015 as it needs to take place outside the family home.
[01:42:49.620]Shane Conway: Because you know at the kitchen table at home there's a hierarchy, the mother sits here, the father sits here, and we all sit, you know, so if it isn't a neutral setting.
[01:43:00.150]Shane Conway: that people have to kind of renegotiate automatically their position so there's kind of neutralizes this you know, because if it is at home, so if you add that into the fact that.
[01:43:12.720]Shane Conway: If you add that into the fact that this is a necessary requirement to fight.
[01:43:16.440]Shane Conway: to avail of a firm partnership, this is sort of stimulating kind of a cultural change in mindset Okay, we need to do this we won't get into a partnership, if not.
[01:43:25.980]Shane Conway: This is part and parcel of the way it works and so inch generation communication is key and and by this discussion this conversation as we've been talking about.
[01:43:37.080]Shane Conway: Everyone has a identifies they're all the whole family comes together the What if scenarios are investigators.
[01:43:43.200]Shane Conway: And the facilitator there they really don't solve the problem they direct them to the different tools and resources and strategies needed to share a vision and so that that's what they're all is and.
[01:43:55.710]Shane Conway: I bring this to fruition it's it's it's hopes this, and this is possible and then this is mentioned in in Ireland they call it the mediation services essential.
[01:44:08.040]Shane Conway: And they talk about fairies not all the sequel which is mentioned, but I would have a lot of issues with the word mediation.
[01:44:15.450]Shane Conway: Because it's generally seen as an intervention in a dispute so America separation or divorce in order to bring back kind of an agreement or reconciliation, but, whereas facilitation is predominantly used pre conflicts.
[01:44:27.540]Shane Conway: So that if the call is mediation service, you know Okay, you have to go through mediation service to available fam partnership.
[01:44:35.880]Shane Conway: Initiatives like well there's all it's gonna be conflict here, but if it's facilitation and communication that you know it's bit more positive so that that's just kind of aware.
[01:44:45.330]Shane Conway: So this is recently published research only and only last week, only two weeks ago, so I talked about the cultural shift that's needed.
[01:44:53.610]Shane Conway: So I looked at habitus subset of dispositions or mindset and so really that the introduction of a firm succession planning module.
[01:45:01.980]Shane Conway: is essential as parents, like a cultural criteria moving forwards, and this will break down the ground rules of integration firm transfer over time, by introducing an education that if you were to avail of any course crops science dairy dairy production.
[01:45:18.450]Shane Conway: that's part and parcel of the module is to draw a succession plan which are family at home, so this would kind of stimulate.
[01:45:26.640]Shane Conway: Communication, because if it's tied to education, that means that all ends parent parents of getting a degree, so it has to be done, even if they're going to.
[01:45:34.950]Shane Conway: Transfer for the next 10 years it has planted the seed, because this is a taboo topic, and if it becomes a little bit of a normalized process.
[01:45:43.050]Shane Conway: You know that the unthinkable, which it is, and a lot of our souls if it's tied into education is tied into a necessary requirement of obtain an edge of.
[01:45:52.410]Shane Conway: Have a degree that it just becomes a little bit more normalized.
[01:45:57.390]Shane Conway: And we tackle this to do and through education measures and station in motion a long term perception that it's the right thing to do to secure the future of the family farm.
[01:46:07.350]Shane Conway: So an age diverse farming populations and pairs of and hopefully the research can inform future policy directions to understand the word is pharmacies.
[01:46:15.630]Shane Conway: And, as a consequence, you know prevent them from being isolated and exclude from society and that's, not to say that policy wants to do this as probably very accidents, rather than intention.
[01:46:24.480]Shane Conway: So, making an impact, you know it's all well and good, this is all in academic bubble.
[01:46:28.980]Shane Conway: which I would have a massive issue with with with a lot of research that it's in the academic silo so of course I publish in these journals which is, which is grace professionally you know it really makes an impact, but.
[01:46:40.290]Shane Conway: We communicate the research we set up sizes have been snap sizing asking chuggers to disseminate it to their 80,000 farming clients.
[01:46:49.260]Shane Conway: The University produce policy briefs again snippets of what i've been talking about so you know when you get this research and automatically like expected to read through a big long paper it's there in front of you.
[01:47:01.500]Shane Conway: And that's when the local media picks up on this and the local media national media picks up on it, because it's an upside.
[01:47:08.130]Shane Conway: And once the message gets out to the farming community wants the firm or started talking about this that's when I was getting phone calls from the EU Commission.
[01:47:17.010]Shane Conway: Saying always see that you've done research on older farmers which mind sending it on.
[01:47:21.060]Shane Conway: And the reason for that was that once farmers started to talk about as they couldn't ignore us any longer.
[01:47:25.860]Shane Conway: So then there's set in motion kind of a and again, like all this kind of communication material to show that this has been filtering down.
[01:47:34.200]Shane Conway: From academia, all the way down to the local media and then right back up to the top and that's what happens and then you know being asked to different kind of podcasts etc so future directions.
[01:47:46.260]Shane Conway: So combat kosher policy wants the old generation to retire to advise what it's a difficult to accept.
[01:47:53.220]Shane Conway: But now there's a kind of a movement marketing a farmer whichever very younger farmers organization Ireland have a really strong position.
[01:48:00.660]Shane Conway: In even in Europe, their voice is very strong but they're talking about move, and this is all since the research has been published.
[01:48:07.170]Shane Conway: My research move away from focusing age on retirement groans and should be become a more positive process so again, you know, the message is filtering into this policy documents.
[01:48:17.820]Shane Conway: And you focus on succession, rather than retirement and so, so I wanted to just mention this, this is kind of the next stage of the research, the creation of the age friendly environment and farming.
[01:48:30.030]Shane Conway: So investigating potential of developing this age friendly environment.
[01:48:34.260]Shane Conway: with a particular focus on the well being benefits of being a social group in later life.
[01:48:39.060]Shane Conway: So you know, the World Health Organization, have been talking about this age friendly environment as policy services settings structures, support and enable people to engage actively, this is an overarching world.
[01:48:50.760]Shane Conway: Health Organization and jess and cultures policies preoccupation with you know older farmers to set aside retires you know it really is at odds to this.
[01:49:02.190]Shane Conway: Age friendly environment approach so on one hand they're saying this on another hand the farmers are kind of getting a higher deal here.
[01:49:10.530]Shane Conway: So we have proposed that there's a voluntary organization national body for older farmers established.
[01:49:17.700]Shane Conway: To tackle this kind of bring about this age friendly environment.
[01:49:20.820]Shane Conway: And so you know, provide a kind of a space where they can remain and inside their firms and social circles, which seems to be so important.
[01:49:29.670]Shane Conway: Social cultural activities so ch their needs and interests and access lifelong learning so really by creating this kind of it's in in Ireland where there's like men sheds it's called it's for.
[01:49:40.440]Shane Conway: People who are retired and they can come about and they work on would work, for example, or different activities but it's very gender specific, so the hope would be that this would be across genders.
[01:49:49.110]Shane Conway: Just to provide all the farmers with an outcast because their firm is their own cluster social setting, but if there was an organization that could facilitate their interests and needs, perhaps this might.
[01:49:59.130]Shane Conway: Give them an option that's Okay, they might have transferred the farm, but they're still involved in the Community there's still embedded in their in their firm circles.
[01:50:07.170]Shane Conway: And, and with that it's important that's if you have this national organization, it might be a lot easier to tackle this issue of farm excellence and debts, you know 66% of found dead, since those 19 or pharmacies 16 over huge issue.
[01:50:22.530]Shane Conway: But yes, if there was a kind of a social network that they could be communicated with such messages they cook one day trips to you know best practice and firearm safety, for example, so you know.
[01:50:36.540]Shane Conway: This is probably where this comes together all that i've talked about so far might resonate with some of you may be some of you may disagree with some talking about us.
[01:50:46.200]Shane Conway: The need for such policy relevant research is imperative, because this is a national issue in Ireland, the European issue, but it's a global issue and so and, as you know, the difference.
[01:50:58.500]Shane Conway: Between iowa State University nebraska usage Davis they've been very accommodating to try and communicate this message, because there is commonality so.
[01:51:07.200]Shane Conway: You know I have features and this message on the different forums, so it kind of really it was great to be able to communicate that back here in Ireland that you know the research in Ireland is applicable elsewhere.
[01:51:19.890]Shane Conway: And this is the international foreign transfer project that was mentioned yesterday.
[01:51:24.600]Shane Conway: And this has been kudos you know across the world, and some of the the data is probably a little bit dangerous at this stage and Ireland was carried out.
[01:51:33.480]Shane Conway: In 2015 or Sam, and these are the states in the US, which has been carried ocean and, most importantly, for the context of my research is that in iowa was carried out very recently.
[01:51:45.090]Shane Conway: And i've been working with john baker now to try and get a comparative study with Ireland and iowa to try and see, is there any commonalities i'm talking about all this here, what can I actually prove that it's the case there as well, for example.
[01:52:00.270]Shane Conway: And this is these copyright questionnaires and compares in it was carried out.
[01:52:06.480]Shane Conway: So I just wanted to mention this, this is very preliminary analysis, we want to be working on this recently Bush this kind of just shows you how closely aligned, a lot of this mindset is.
[01:52:17.460]Shane Conway: And remember that and ireland's 80 acres iowa 359 acres so you're talking about a completely different scale, but yes, this mindset is quite similar and again preliminarily.
[01:52:29.700]Shane Conway: You know, but I just wanted to communicate with this audience in particular that this is quite closely aligned scarily aligned how how.
[01:52:38.760]Shane Conway: How this is so succession planning 67% in Ireland dawn's 66 and I don't successor identified, you know 37% and ireland's.
[01:52:50.910]Shane Conway: have known and 40% of non in ios so and then, when you break it down into the retirement, you know the semi retirement is an interesting one on pharmacy or semi retire essentially it's just.
[01:53:02.610]Shane Conway: keep doing what they're doing, but their physical capabilities might be as good as the wire, so they have to just kind of take a little bit of a step back so it's just kind of wanted to bring So in conclusion.
[01:53:14.280]Shane Conway: You know this isn't a one size fits all for fixing the problem that this situation or problem as its referred to was addressing the human side of the process is essentially moving forward.
[01:53:26.790]Shane Conway: And you know, taking into account the different things i've talked about be at the power dynamics and how swords.
[01:53:32.160]Shane Conway: Beauty younger generations that need to keep learning from the old generation, the loss of status and identity in later life that kind of impact that will have on their mental health and well being.
[01:53:44.280]Shane Conway: And so you know this is important aspects I definitely know it's it's definitely on par with the economic side of it and the legislation side of us.
[01:53:52.650]Shane Conway: And so, no one can avoid aging, no one can do that, but just remember this order farmers up to remain.
[01:53:59.700]Shane Conway: maintain the facade even whatever about maintaining active dsd but to be seen to be active and productive is so important to their for their well being.
[01:54:07.800]Shane Conway: So policy should be more concerned with their welfare and adapted to their needs and requirements, and this is something that I came across when I was in the US and and I recommend you also watch us this evening.
[01:54:22.680]Shane Conway: it's called looms so alone, with no one's in hearse the family firms short film about American farmers who struggles to find purpose in his life.
[01:54:30.750]Shane Conway: And some of you may have already seen this, but if now so i'd recommend to watch us exact issues that we're talking about.
[01:54:38.370]Shane Conway: Yesterday and today and, basically, the children, wants to sell the firm and just it's a really powerful piece of.
[01:54:46.650]Shane Conway: imagery and i'd recommend to watch us and it's really I use this even an Ireland I use it after every presentation to kind of show them.
[01:54:55.140]Shane Conway: That this is such a powerful international issue and yeah a little bit kind of emotional at times this because it is supposed to, especially when you can relate or.
[01:55:04.980]Shane Conway: it's a good side there's a link there as well, the presentation be sent out so so yeah just.
[01:55:10.650]Shane Conway: Thank you for your attention, as we say in our neighborhood firestone Mr give clear and that's so thank you very much, essentially, and this is john became.
[01:55:20.820]Shane Conway: I suppose he's like Yates becca's i'm surprised oh Joe Biden hasn't President Biden hasn't quarter them, yes, but he may do we asked john became because he's quite fond of quoting Irish ports and playwrights and, but this is back in 1965 and I suppose it's it's.
[01:55:38.790]Shane Conway: it's quite it's quite when you read us you kind of see that the issues that were john became talked about this movie actually again maybe look it up and watches and.
[01:55:49.740]Shane Conway: Richard Harris so, and this, these issues are still an issue today, and so so yeah it's the law of the land and find the difficulty level and so thanks.
[01:56:04.380]Shane Conway: for your attention and hopefully enjoy this and, hopefully, as far as hopefully it relates to some of as well as, hopefully, you can take lessons for it that's, the most important thing and i'd really.
[01:56:14.190]Shane Conway: I really hope this whatever i've talked about you can gain some sort of inspiration somewhere or another, just as I am doing from listening to he's talking.
[01:56:22.320]Shane Conway: Like i'm taking notes and learning you learn every day and i've definitely learned from this so yeah hopefully this will help and of interest, so thank you.
[01:56:35.310]iPhone: Dr conway Thank you so much for being with us extremely excited to have you and uncanny the similarities that we're all facing, no matter where we're at on on this earth so with that, I think, Alan if you want to do we have time for a few questions if you want to open up questions.
[01:56:53.700]Allan Vyhnalek: Yes, yes please, please do ask well shane do you see the questions in the chat.
[01:57:04.830]Shane Conway: Yes, i'm just scroll up yeah and I meant to say, as well as if any of you want any my publications i'll send them on maybe island can just distribute them, and you know they're they're free to use.
[01:57:32.040]Shane Conway: distinction between young farmer yeah that the young farmer and irons and under 35 in Europe than that find it as as as under 40 so there's a few benefits for that you know.
[01:57:48.030]Shane Conway: In ireland's you know when we talk about capital gains capital acquisitions and stamped juicy so the the the donor.
[01:57:57.360]Shane Conway: pays the capital gains and the capital acquisitions and stamp Judy is paid by the dorney so like the current race of stamp choosing an agricultural land is 7.5% in Ireland, whereas.
[01:58:09.210]Shane Conway: With residential property it's only 1% so young train farmers kind of a young farmers.
[01:58:15.240]Shane Conway: Beginning farmers can avail of zero percent stamp juicy what this providers that the firm is transferred to them before they're they're 2035 years of age.
[01:58:24.180]Shane Conway: So yeah there's there's kind of a Gray area that they refer to them as young farmers and new entrance or just new entrance as I spoke about how hard it is to access land and the price of land.
[01:58:35.460]Shane Conway: it's a it's a very difficult thing to get established and farming if you're not inheriting it so.
[01:58:41.730]Shane Conway: So yeah i'm just trying to think, is there any other come to.
[01:58:45.360]Allan Vyhnalek: Go back to about 11.
[01:58:49.980]Allan Vyhnalek: Six there's other questions you can.
[01:58:55.680]Shane Conway: knock on benefits Secretary just trying to think what slides that was.
[01:59:02.700]Joy Kirkpatrick: It was one of your very first slide I think.
[01:59:04.980]Shane Conway: knock on benefits to society, I think, was when I was referring to the fact that the.
[01:59:10.260]Shane Conway: The there's 50% of our farmers, essentially in Ireland, our paradigm farmers, so the knock on benefits to that is that if they.
[01:59:18.420]Shane Conway: Even though the firm might be able to provide for them, it probably isn't at the scale that they could live off the land, but they're farming paradigm, that means that they're.
[01:59:27.540]Shane Conway: Staying in their community, so the firm actually they're attached to the firm they couldn't imagine selling it so they feel empowered time.
[01:59:33.750]Shane Conway: And the knock on benefits to that is that, where the remainder community and the contribution to society, then their children are going to the local school.
[01:59:42.780]Shane Conway: there's local businesses supporting them like the grain stores, for example, so the knock on effects and that sense would be that you know.
[01:59:50.550]Shane Conway: You can't like to talk about rural Ireland, you know the the sustainability and viability of it, but my argument is that without farming.
[01:59:57.660]Shane Conway: rural Ireland would be a very lonely and lonely and bleak place so the knock on benefits would be that secondary economic impacts exactly and support businesses, local businesses so.
[02:00:11.100]Shane Conway: So yeah hopefully that I think that'll probably resonate with some of you as well, and from a US perspective, perhaps not what the bigger firms, because.
[02:00:19.320]Shane Conway: You know, we don't really have an issue really just yet about the the larger firms kind of turned it into an industrial scale.
[02:00:28.260]Shane Conway: But it's starting to kind of trickle in a little bit, especially with the dairy production during production is very lucrative here, and some of the bigger firms are actually.
[02:00:37.560]Shane Conway: are buying up more and more, and the knock on effect to that into the rural communities that there's less firms there's less families in the in the locality so.
[02:00:47.340]Shane Conway: Because the fans are getting bigger and as a consequences there's less people needed on the land so so yeah that's The knock on benefits Sophie.
[02:00:56.130]Allan Vyhnalek: No, it was in the light of the 400 years of culture, you are the Ireland elected leaders going to talk about succession.
[02:01:06.180]Shane Conway: yeah there's no doubt testers yeah that there's no delta there's a massive focus on this and but yes it's it's it's it's common knowledge that it's a very sensitive topic, I suppose, they are willing to talk about succession because there's a lot of.
[02:01:23.040]Shane Conway: For for for and partnership as now there's talk about you know we're not really going to have another early retirement scheme because we acknowledge this is.
[02:01:36.000]Shane Conway: So definitely electric leaders, you know.
[02:01:40.620]Shane Conway: Succession land mobility is at the forefront of all conversations us there's also an acknowledgement, now that it's a deeper because in ireland's and probably.
[02:01:55.830]Shane Conway: It can resonate a lot of this that you know their grandparents were from the farm, for example, so.
[02:02:01.620]Shane Conway: We are a new country relatively new country in that sense, so to sell the land is is kind of unheard of in a lot of places, but the whole succession.
[02:02:11.340]Shane Conway: The need for the younger farmer is is very open to share definitely it's it's not it's a taboo topic within the farming community, but as a policy level there's real trying to mobilize this process so.
[02:02:26.640]Allan Vyhnalek: I think we're pretty much out of time.
[02:02:29.940]Allan Vyhnalek: I think we probably just go on, but thank you very much, excellent presentation, your comments are excellent in the chat box, we appreciate everybody being on.
[02:02:38.040]Allan Vyhnalek: Will started so we'll start with our last day tomorrow morning at 9:30am central with a chat coffee coffee and conversation and attend we'll start with our programming so with that i'm going to stop the recording and have a great day, everyone we'll talk soon, thank you.
[02:02:53.670]Allan Vyhnalek: Thank you.
[02:02:54.270]Shane Conway: I speak to a.
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