NCLUDE 4.16.21 How to Build Cultures of Inclusion Session 3
Jennifer Brown, envisions inclusive organizations where all of us can thrive. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker and diversity and inclusion expert. She is the Founder, and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting (JBC), and her consulting firm guides some of the world’s largest companies in their diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. She is an acclaimed keynoter and podcaster, with her podcast The Will to Change. Her award-winning latest book, How To Be An Inclusive Leader, calls on allies and advocates everywhere to activate their voice. This session will discuss how to build cultures of inclusion and belonging.
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[00:00:05.050]Barker, Vice Chancellor for Diversity and Inclusion
[00:00:07.290]at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.
[00:00:09.720]Our guest speaker today, Jennifer Brown
[00:00:12.010]envisions inclusive organizations
[00:00:14.170]where all of us can thrive.
[00:00:16.910]Jennifer is an award winning entrepreneur,
[00:00:19.650]a Niemiec speaker and diversity inclusion expert.
[00:00:22.970]She is Founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting
[00:00:26.780]and her consulting firm guides
[00:00:28.430]some of the world's largest companies
[00:00:30.400]in their diversity, equity and inclusion efforts.
[00:00:33.600]She's an acclaimed keynoter
[00:00:35.240]and podcaster with her podcast, The Will to Change.
[00:00:40.530]Her award-winning latest book
[00:00:42.327]"How to Be an Inclusive Leader",
[00:00:43.470]which is also part of our NCLUDE reading book series
[00:00:46.600]calls on allies and advocates everywhere
[00:00:49.580]to activate their voice.
[00:00:52.420]Please join me in welcoming Jennifer Brown.
[00:00:57.860]Thank you so much, Marco.
[00:00:59.710]And I'm really glad to be here with all of you.
[00:01:01.980]I understand you've had a really incredible
[00:01:05.550]series of sessions and I am the final one
[00:01:08.507]but I am just honored to be joining you all
[00:01:10.620]and hopefully wrapping some things up
[00:01:13.340]and making some connections for you
[00:01:15.880]in your understanding of this topic
[00:01:17.420]that I know we're all very, very passionate about.
[00:01:19.880]So I'm just thrilled to be here.
[00:01:22.970]My pronouns are she/her/hers.
[00:01:25.060]So I wanna begin by sharing that
[00:01:26.670]and I will continue to talk about various identities
[00:01:30.310]that I carry as we go through our presentation tonight
[00:01:34.420]because they're very important and they're very relevant
[00:01:36.680]to the topics that we're going to be talking about.
[00:01:39.750]And if we have questions, thank you, there's a note here
[00:01:42.530]if we have questions for me, please submit them
[00:01:44.790]via the Q&A feature, and I will be keeping an eye on that
[00:01:49.260]and please keep them coming,
[00:01:50.950]I, what I wouldn't want for any of you to do
[00:01:53.001]is to forget what you really wanted to ask.
[00:01:58.220]And I really also want you to know that
[00:02:00.490]this is a very constructive space, a safe and brave space
[00:02:04.800]it's a place where I want to know what's on your minds
[00:02:08.780]and hearts, what is proving to be difficult
[00:02:12.000]or that you don't understand right now
[00:02:14.280]and if I can, absolutely 'cause I don't have all the answers
[00:02:17.540]in this rapidly evolving field
[00:02:19.210]but I'd be happy to try to tackle what you give me.
[00:02:22.580]So please weigh in, I also really welcome personal sharing.
[00:02:27.960]So much of this work is me witnessing all of you
[00:02:32.030]and your experiences of the kinds of concepts
[00:02:34.140]I'm gonna be talking about today
[00:02:36.040]as I share my personal experiences of them as well.
[00:02:38.500]So if you want to weigh in
[00:02:40.230]and share how this shows up for you, I would welcome it
[00:02:43.150]I really enjoy that, probably most of all.
[00:02:45.934]So there is a QR code on the lower left
[00:02:49.260]of your screen right now
[00:02:50.580]that you can wave your phone over
[00:02:54.440]and pull up a bunch of our goodies
[00:02:56.480]at Jennifer Brown Consulting, from my podcast
[00:02:58.670]to the information about my books on inclusion
[00:03:01.630]to our Inclusive Leader Assessment
[00:03:03.810]which is a helpful tool in your arsenal
[00:03:06.999]to a community call that I run every Thursday
[00:03:09.830]at noon, Eastern for DEI practitioners and advocates
[00:03:13.940]which people really love in terms of coming together
[00:03:16.400]learning and really broadening our own vocabulary
[00:03:19.680]because we, many of us in my world
[00:03:21.820]kind of shepherd organizations through this work.
[00:03:24.720]So that's an important community to me,
[00:03:26.900]I'm happy to have you if you'd like to.
[00:03:28.970]So please check us out
[00:03:30.400]definitely grab this QR code, if you can
[00:03:32.970]and then we'll also share it again
[00:03:34.410]at the end of our time together.
[00:03:36.989]And so let me jump in and share, as I promised
[00:03:39.620]a little bit about my own diversity story.
[00:03:41.440]So I had the good fortune of being able to move
[00:03:44.930]to New York City to study operatic vocal performance.
[00:03:49.540]Amazing, but true, I was extremely excited
[00:03:53.590]about the opportunity to do that
[00:03:56.350]and just dive into being an artist and a performing artist
[00:03:58.930]but life had other plans for me
[00:04:01.160]in the course of operatic training, I would be
[00:04:03.810]I'd injured my voice several times, and it kept happening
[00:04:07.190]and the remedy for it was surgery, sadly
[00:04:09.880]for what had happened to me in particular.
[00:04:12.340]And I had to go silent for weeks afterwards
[00:04:16.250]which is normal, but it's a gut punch to your dreams.
[00:04:21.270]And after a couple of rounds,
[00:04:23.260]I knew that my instrument would be forever compromised
[00:04:25.660]and I would need to find another way
[00:04:27.580]to make my mark in the world.
[00:04:30.170]And so I was heartbroken and confused
[00:04:33.080]but at the same time, I knew that I had many performers
[00:04:36.920]in my network who had reinvented
[00:04:39.020]and many said, "Why don't you trade this stage for another?
[00:04:42.250]Why don't you look into this field
[00:04:43.940]called training and development,
[00:04:45.070]corporate training and leadership?"
[00:04:46.747]And I didn't know what that was
[00:04:48.240]but I followed their advice and I fell in love again
[00:04:51.490]with the world of organizational change and leadership
[00:04:54.520]and considering our purpose professionally
[00:04:57.950]and how deeply personal actually that is
[00:05:01.050]and it has been for me, and the organizational structures
[00:05:04.210]that we want to have hold us
[00:05:06.610]in achieving that purpose and finding that purpose.
[00:05:09.500]And then, sadly the ways that organizations
[00:05:12.400]as they are currently designed fall short in doing that
[00:05:15.550]and we'll talk about that.
[00:05:17.230]And so I would subsequently hold some HR roles,
[00:05:20.230]I got another masters
[00:05:21.330]in organizational development or design.
[00:05:24.750]I was, as I said in HR
[00:05:26.270]and then I would go out on my own about 14 years ago
[00:05:28.400]and start Jennifer Brown Consulting.
[00:05:29.820]And today we get to work across for-profit companies,
[00:05:33.960]nonprofits, academia, but mainly large organizations
[00:05:37.760]to build more inclusive cultures where all of us
[00:05:41.580]can feel more welcomed, valued, respected, and heard.
[00:05:44.650]So I like to say, I was meant to use my voice
[00:05:47.030]just not as a singer.
[00:05:49.100]But the other way that I struggled to use my voice
[00:05:51.820]is I'm a member of the LGBTQ+ community.
[00:05:54.780]So I've been out since I was 22,
[00:05:56.750]but I certainly closeted as a performer
[00:05:59.640]as someone who didn't see any, anyone who apparently
[00:06:03.440]or you know, what I could at least perceive
[00:06:05.880]anyone that shared my identity
[00:06:07.780]and then subsequently as a corporate employee
[00:06:11.140]and HR person, similar struggle, certainly.
[00:06:14.740]And then as entrepreneur, over time
[00:06:17.670]I think I've very much moved
[00:06:20.120]towards fully embracing that authenticity.
[00:06:23.600]But I have to say that it's a long road
[00:06:26.130]and there's many of us that still struggle on that road
[00:06:28.700]and of all kinds of identities are struggling
[00:06:32.460]to bring our full selves to work.
[00:06:33.780]And I still, it still occurs to me
[00:06:36.600]when I am in a room, virtual or otherwise to teach
[00:06:40.020]to facilitate, my identity is still something
[00:06:43.320]that I think about, that it's very top of mind
[00:06:46.540]and it's, I think it's,
[00:06:48.000]I make some strategic choices about it.
[00:06:50.950]Meaning what can I not conceal about who I am
[00:06:54.470]perhaps you might assume I'm my gender
[00:06:57.600]although we can't necessarily always know we're correct
[00:07:01.260]but they may assume as I'm a cisgender woman
[00:07:03.700]or they may not imagine I'm LGBTQ
[00:07:06.600]and then I have some choices to make about
[00:07:09.230]what I share and then how it impacts
[00:07:12.390]or might impact my credibility, my authority
[00:07:15.370]my ability to be seen as an expert,
[00:07:18.330]my power, my influence, all those things.
[00:07:20.360]And so, I know that for me, I do this for a living
[00:07:24.070]but it is so top of mind, the interplay
[00:07:27.130]between expertise and identity in every single moment.
[00:07:30.670]And I've learned through many, many years of looking at this
[00:07:33.740]as a consultant that this is so true across the board.
[00:07:36.240]And I wanted to share some research
[00:07:39.920]that really gave me an understanding and a word, honestly
[00:07:43.500]for something that I've really experienced
[00:07:45.780]which is covering, it is Kenji Yoshino's
[00:07:49.150]actually refers back to Kenji Yoshino's book
[00:07:51.030]called "Covering", which is an excellent book.
[00:07:53.070]He and Christie Smith, along with Deloitte
[00:07:55.860]quantified this concept in the workplace.
[00:07:58.130]And they determined that it is something
[00:08:00.370]we spend a lot of time and energy doing
[00:08:02.700]and it doesn't necessarily mean being closeted
[00:08:05.430]which is I think how a lot of us
[00:08:07.020]in the LGBTQ community think about
[00:08:09.180]not talking about who we are, but covering is more subtle
[00:08:12.080]I think it's something that we do in anticipation of bias.
[00:08:15.030]So you heard me say earlier,
[00:08:17.040]I was imagining how I would be heard.
[00:08:19.820]I was assuming that this would hurt me, this would help me.
[00:08:24.040]Here's sort of how this status is playing out
[00:08:26.400]in this room and sort of deciding what not to bring
[00:08:30.870]either partially or fully into that room
[00:08:33.670]because of the stigma and the penalties that I might pay.
[00:08:38.490]And so I really appreciated being given this word
[00:08:42.120]and he's just incredible.
[00:08:43.280]He's a constitutional law scholar at NYU,
[00:08:45.980]if you wanna look up Kenji's work
[00:08:47.310]and sometimes you'll see him on the news commenting
[00:08:50.350]on certain cases and things like that, but he's brilliant
[00:08:52.630]and so I think personal about the story as well.
[00:08:55.970]And so in the report then, the number of those of us who
[00:09:01.220]and the percentage of us that engage in this
[00:09:03.380]on a regular basis is the 61%, so it's more than half.
[00:09:07.160]And we do it along a variety of axes,
[00:09:11.050]I'll mention four, appearance-based covering
[00:09:14.300]may be when we modify our appearance
[00:09:16.910]to not be comfortable for us, but make others comfortable.
[00:09:20.620]So I always think of my gender non-binary friends
[00:09:22.860]and gender fluid friends who express their gender
[00:09:25.450]in a binary way in order to avoid the conversation.
[00:09:29.010]And we may know they identify
[00:09:30.790]with they/them pronouns or as gender non-binary,
[00:09:33.990]but living into that consistently
[00:09:37.060]is something perhaps we're all on a journey with
[00:09:40.400]and so we may cover that desire at appearance,
[00:09:44.799]the way in which we feel the most comfortable
[00:09:47.310]physically dressing, wearing our hair, et cetera.
[00:09:50.430]And interestingly in Zoom world and the online world
[00:09:53.430]I want us all to think about what has shifted
[00:09:56.420]from the physical environment where we used to see
[00:10:00.480]our whole bodies, not just the neck up?
[00:10:03.690]And where, what impact has that had
[00:10:06.010]on our choices about appearance?
[00:10:08.230]It's very curious to explore that.
[00:10:10.200]Affiliation-based covering, I always think of parents.
[00:10:12.780]I think parenting is a deeply stigmatized identity
[00:10:16.530]a horribly unsupported identity in the workplace.
[00:10:19.640]And so the distancing from being affiliated
[00:10:22.430]with other parents means that I think, expectant parents
[00:10:27.030]and fathers, for example, let alone what mothers go through
[00:10:30.900]but fathers go through as well, this sort of distancing
[00:10:33.640]of I don't wanna be affiliated with
[00:10:36.620]appearing to value parenting, value flex work arrangements
[00:10:40.860]wanting to have time to have my career
[00:10:44.650]kind of fit my goals with my family.
[00:10:47.820]And so the affiliation-based covering
[00:10:49.820]is the not asking for what you need,
[00:10:52.382]not obscuring that so that you won't get passed up
[00:10:56.400]for the stretch assignment or the big opportunity
[00:10:59.720]or that it won't be said about you
[00:11:01.530]that you are not committed to your career.
[00:11:04.080]And so a lot of people they're strategically covering
[00:11:06.210]around affiliation relating to their family desires.
[00:11:09.730]Advocacy-based covering is when we hesitate
[00:11:12.238]or don't challenge a joke or a comment,
[00:11:15.350]we don't want to advocate too much,
[00:11:16.690]we don't wanna be the squeaky wheel,
[00:11:18.540]we don't wanna make too much trouble, and we're exhausted.
[00:11:21.910]We're exhausted from always being the one
[00:11:23.890]that if we don't say anything about a microaggression
[00:11:27.440]after a while, we sense that there's a penalty to doing so.
[00:11:31.750]And so we might go silent
[00:11:33.520]for any of those reasons or all of those reasons
[00:11:35.910]and it's a real missed opportunity, obviously.
[00:11:38.350]I understand why we do it,
[00:11:39.410]we do it to preserve our psychological safety
[00:11:41.710]and our real safety, but the missed opportunity
[00:11:44.300]is that in showing up and bringing up
[00:11:47.710]and giving the feedback around microaggressions
[00:11:49.740]for example, it's such an aha moment
[00:11:51.360]it's such a learning moment.
[00:11:52.800]It's often, how many of us learn
[00:11:54.593]it's when we utter something
[00:11:55.950]that we don't realize is harmful,
[00:11:58.400]and somebody takes us aside
[00:12:00.110]and has a firm and gentle conversation with us
[00:12:03.870]and we're never the same again,
[00:12:05.000]we never make that same choice again.
[00:12:06.470]So advocacy-based covering is that just, you know
[00:12:09.600]I'm not gonna advocate anymore, I'm not gonna say anything.
[00:12:12.250]And you can imagine what this does to engagement
[00:12:14.670]for anybody in an organizational context to feel silenced.
[00:12:19.280]And then finally association-based covering,
[00:12:21.120]I think of any group who is seen to be associating
[00:12:24.680]with each other rather too much.
[00:12:27.210]So I think of if I'm the LGBTQ manager in an organization
[00:12:30.630]and perhaps I have more than the average
[00:12:32.520]LGBTQ people working for me, or with me
[00:12:35.520]maybe there's an eyebrow raise to say,
[00:12:38.070]she really seems to spend a lot of time with her people
[00:12:42.360]or has sort of a bias for hiring people
[00:12:45.470]that identify like she does.
[00:12:47.310]And I can tell you every identity group struggles with this
[00:12:51.290]being seen in that conference room in the physical world,
[00:12:54.290]pre pandemic being seen too much
[00:12:56.620]with people that look like we do
[00:12:58.360]or leaving the building at the same time,
[00:13:00.430]or, and I mean, I wish this were old data, but it's not.
[00:13:04.040]And my team, we're constantly doing focus groups
[00:13:06.290]and in call kinds of organizations
[00:13:09.060]and hearing really, really disturbing things
[00:13:12.010]that we would have thought were relics of the past
[00:13:14.170]that people are still engaging in.
[00:13:15.730]So, and again, just thinking through sort of,
[00:13:17.750]okay, how does this show up in the virtual world?
[00:13:19.940]That's what's so interesting and that's a whole deep dive
[00:13:23.240]and we don't have a lot of time to do that
[00:13:25.120]but I would welcome your Q&A
[00:13:26.670]and comments about how this shows up for you.
[00:13:28.760]Are there other aspects, what do you think has changed?
[00:13:31.410]I know some friends really appreciate actually
[00:13:34.720]they find they cover less in the virtual realm,
[00:13:40.260]but interestingly, it's, the virtual world
[00:13:43.240]has kind of put our lives on display
[00:13:45.000]in a really unique and uncomfortable way.
[00:13:48.320]And so we haven't been able to cover in some ways,
[00:13:50.450]paradoxically, even though we are distanced
[00:13:52.670]from each other and we're connecting virtually
[00:13:55.390]our lives are unfolding around us, behind us.
[00:13:59.040]And it's not, it's not something a lot of us
[00:14:02.410]I think we're prepared to have on display.
[00:14:05.750]So it's required us to really get deep
[00:14:08.030]and fast and trust each other
[00:14:10.060]but that doesn't mean that it's comfortable.
[00:14:11.720]And it doesn't mean that the forced transparency
[00:14:16.070]and the vulnerability has been protected
[00:14:19.440]and honored and respected, so I will say that.
[00:14:23.330]So in the research as well,
[00:14:26.040]they talk about some groups that cover more often
[00:14:29.780]than the 61% I just shared, and it wasn't surprising to me
[00:14:34.330]those of us who are underrepresented
[00:14:35.580]in the workplace, we cover more.
[00:14:37.510]Why, because we're the only, or one of few
[00:14:40.420]and that certainly becomes more and more, more prevalent
[00:14:43.600]the higher up we get in a sort of organizational hierarchy.
[00:14:47.959]And we, you know, LGBTQ people
[00:14:50.210]just to give an example, which is the highest number here
[00:14:52.970]50% of us are still closeted in the workplace,
[00:14:55.640]completely closeted, 50%, so that was a statistic from 2019.
[00:15:00.470]And then we can imagine the confluence
[00:15:03.150]of multiple stigmatized identities
[00:15:04.810]which we'll get to in a moment about intersectionality
[00:15:07.200]but the compounding perceived demands to cover.
[00:15:13.200]You can imagine, some people that I speak to say,
[00:15:15.527]"Jennifer, I check five of these six boxes."
[00:15:18.280]And some things, you know, I know when I walk into a room
[00:15:20.830]or come into a room, these things are apparent about me
[00:15:23.690]these things I can cover or hide because I'm already a lot
[00:15:28.000]like who I am is potentially triggering for a lot of people
[00:15:32.180]and I may experience like an unwelcome number of stereotypes
[00:15:35.500]and so I have to manage that, and that is a lot of work.
[00:15:39.540]I mean, I hope you're sort of thinking,
[00:15:41.320]and I hope you haven't experienced this compounding impacts
[00:15:45.580]but a lot of us have, and it's real, and it's exhausting
[00:15:48.280]it's bad for our health.
[00:15:49.150]And I think ultimately a lot of people leave organizations
[00:15:51.750]at some point when it just becomes too much
[00:15:55.300]and I don't blame people,
[00:15:57.150]we have to do a better job with this.
[00:15:59.430]So there's another group in the research
[00:16:01.570]that talks about covering.
[00:16:02.730]And as one of my favorite moments in this talk
[00:16:05.890]and in sharing this is that they found
[00:16:08.130]that 45% of straight White men report covering as well.
[00:16:12.240]I have to say, I think I used to walk into rooms
[00:16:16.000]that looked like this
[00:16:16.833]and immediately felt the covering demands,
[00:16:20.070]the perceived covering demands.
[00:16:21.420]And I would be going through the math and thinking about
[00:16:24.330]how am I gonna manage this
[00:16:26.330]and not betray myself and my integrity
[00:16:30.560]but also maintain the position I need
[00:16:33.997]and the platform that I need in this room
[00:16:35.567]and the voice in this room?
[00:16:37.340]But I would be wrong to assume that,
[00:16:41.190]and the challenge I give myself now is
[00:16:44.580]that remembering that most of our diversity dimensions
[00:16:47.050]many of them are invisible until we make them visible.
[00:16:51.050]And also that they may be about a broader
[00:16:54.890]range of diversity dimensions
[00:16:56.390]which we'll get into in a moment, but really eye-opening
[00:16:59.700]and heart opening to realize, it is just so far beyond
[00:17:03.410]race and gender and sexual orientation.
[00:17:05.190]It goes to disability and addiction
[00:17:07.760]and mental health issues and political diversity,
[00:17:10.590]religious and spiritual diversity
[00:17:12.210]and socioeconomic differences
[00:17:14.340]and being ashamed of a lack of education
[00:17:17.980]or opportunities or growing up extremely poor
[00:17:22.335]or neuro-diversity, being dyslexic.
[00:17:25.892]So there's a lot of things that have been shared with me
[00:17:28.420]by groups that look like this
[00:17:29.590]and over, over time, it has provided
[00:17:33.030]an important muscle for me to exercise
[00:17:36.680]which is to know that there, I can see very little
[00:17:39.900]about a group that looks like this, truthfully
[00:17:42.080]and that my job is to create enough psychological safety
[00:17:45.530]in that container for a new discussion to emerge
[00:17:48.730]and also to task rooms that look like this,
[00:17:52.020]which are typically top of the house rooms,
[00:17:54.710]which is what we talk about
[00:17:56.330]when we look at organizational, org charts
[00:17:59.250]and still to this day, most, many organizations leadership
[00:18:02.640]is dominated by cisgender, straight White men.
[00:18:07.090]The challenge for a group like this is generationally even
[00:18:10.240]let alone identities to lead on DEI,
[00:18:13.950]because it is many steps removed
[00:18:16.410]from, sometimes from our lived experience, or it's something
[00:18:19.500]that we are deeply uncomfortable talking about
[00:18:22.430]and we don't really know why it's relevant to talk about it.
[00:18:24.650]And I'm a Gen Xer, so I, and I speak
[00:18:27.990]to a lot of Gen X leaders
[00:18:29.960]and it's like learning a new language these days,
[00:18:34.320]and what's happening, the grounds fall of younger talent
[00:18:37.460]bringing in everything that they're bringing
[00:18:39.700]and expecting some, a very different workplace
[00:18:41.700]than they're encountering.
[00:18:43.450]And so we have a disconnect that I think is as risky
[00:18:47.400]and I would characterize it as an emergency,
[00:18:50.720]an emergency of misunderstandings, miscommunication
[00:18:54.480]and a lack of empathy, and also understanding
[00:18:57.560]of what's important from a values perspective
[00:18:59.830]especially for our next generation of leaders
[00:19:03.130]which is who our emerging talent are.
[00:19:05.800]So what I'm trying to do when I speak is to broad, again
[00:19:10.030]like I said, broaden everybody's aperture and vocabulary
[00:19:12.590]and really broaden the number of diversity dimensions
[00:19:14.980]and left to right quickly,
[00:19:16.680]we have our primary aspects, which are inborn
[00:19:19.340]they are innate, they cannot change.
[00:19:21.530]We might be able to pass about them
[00:19:24.220]but they are innate and unchangeable.
[00:19:26.820]And so you'll see those on primary,
[00:19:28.640]secondary is acquired aspects of diversity
[00:19:30.900]our accident of birth aspects.
[00:19:32.567]You know, what kind of education and resources
[00:19:36.470]could I avail myself of?
[00:19:37.780]Did I grow up in a safe environment?
[00:19:39.240]Did I have enough to eat?
[00:19:40.670]Did I travel all over the world and I had a lot of exposure?
[00:19:43.670]What religion was I raised in?
[00:19:46.140]Now I'm a parent, or now I have a disability
[00:19:49.240]'cause a third of us are gonna have a disability
[00:19:50.920]at some point in our lifetime.
[00:19:52.570]And so those secondary pieces are acquired
[00:19:55.170]and they're very important
[00:19:56.990]and I think becoming more prime, more, not primary
[00:20:00.180]but more prevalent in the discussion,
[00:20:01.900]particularly as I notice younger people again
[00:20:04.970]are more fluent between these primary
[00:20:07.140]and secondaries and very comfortable talking about it.
[00:20:10.270]Organizational diversity is another aspect.
[00:20:12.300]It could be headquarters, regional, U.S. locations
[00:20:15.780]factory and manufacturing parts of a company, corporate
[00:20:20.140]it can be global, different countries
[00:20:22.480]so much, having a non-traditional education
[00:20:25.280]for a field that you're in
[00:20:26.430]and having that be something that brings about some stigma
[00:20:30.570]and interrupts belonging, as I say.
[00:20:33.600]Cultural diversity is fascinating,
[00:20:35.860]it's a whole, it's a whole field of study
[00:20:38.950]that's not my expertise,
[00:20:40.360]but it, I personally find it interesting
[00:20:42.330]my partner's Filipino American,
[00:20:44.040]first-generation and part of a giant Filipino family.
[00:20:47.880]And my culture is Northern European
[00:20:50.540]it's a very small, I have a very small nuclear family
[00:20:52.780]and the energy is very different,
[00:20:54.300]the focus on things like task and relationship is different
[00:20:57.840]the collective, commitment to the collective
[00:21:00.500]versus the individualistic culture is really interesting.
[00:21:02.790]So if you're fascinated by that
[00:21:04.170]there's a lot of really great information out there
[00:21:06.940]and people just specialize in that
[00:21:09.160]but it's another aspect we need to be very aware of
[00:21:12.310]and really welcoming of and seeking of
[00:21:15.160]in any team we're on, in any kind of combination of people
[00:21:19.130]that set out to do a task
[00:21:21.050]this is another piece to keep in mind.
[00:21:23.820]And then era is the last one here that I'll talk about
[00:21:26.720]which is to look at Gen Y, Millennials
[00:21:29.910]and also Generation Z, the oldest of whom are 25.
[00:21:32.710]And I know we probably have all kinds of generations
[00:21:35.010]on this, in this meeting today,
[00:21:37.120]but the valuing of inclusion is so palpable
[00:21:41.120]by younger generations, particularly Gen Z
[00:21:44.080]and understanding and assuming
[00:21:46.380]that coming into that workplace
[00:21:48.170]and into my professional self
[00:21:50.220]that the organization isn't gonna,
[00:21:52.380]this is just going to be table stakes,
[00:21:54.180]it's going to be intuitive, it's sort of an, of course
[00:21:56.950]but I think they enter organizations
[00:21:59.140]where it is not at all an of course,
[00:22:00.990]it is something that has been lacking sorely forever
[00:22:04.450]I mean, since the beginning of the workplace.
[00:22:07.170]I like to say the workplace wasn't built by
[00:22:09.450]and for many of us, most of us, maybe
[00:22:13.350]as those demographics change and we feel that tension
[00:22:17.010]and that cognitive dissonance, we can imagine
[00:22:20.180]what that workplace feels like from a belonging perspective
[00:22:24.290]for especially younger talent
[00:22:26.210]and in a way for my generation too
[00:22:28.020]but I think the difference is that Gen Xers
[00:22:29.900]couldn't, we couldn't speak up, we couldn't challenge
[00:22:33.360]we didn't have the language or the permission to do that.
[00:22:35.950]We didn't have the generational character,
[00:22:37.470]we weren't raised by the same kind of parents
[00:22:39.570]we didn't grow up with the digital universe available to us.
[00:22:43.100]So it's just a very, very different world
[00:22:45.900]but I do wanna always make the point
[00:22:47.600]that inclusion is a necessity than expectation
[00:22:51.180]and we have, again, we have a lot of catching up to do.
[00:22:54.510]So if we take all those pieces and we say,
[00:22:57.020]well, everybody has a diversity story
[00:22:58.660]everybody has diversity dimensions
[00:23:00.210]there's not anybody that is not diverse.
[00:23:02.520]So we have to be careful when we say that.
[00:23:04.640]So who exactly is not diverse?
[00:23:07.140]We are all diverse and we all have a iceberg in us
[00:23:11.210]and also organizations have this as well.
[00:23:13.910]And so, the interesting thing and I'll go back a click is,
[00:23:17.610]is we choose to show what's above our water line
[00:23:21.300]and we set that water line typically very high
[00:23:24.190]and we show what's accepted
[00:23:26.650]and what we think others are showing.
[00:23:29.180]So we're emulating and mimicking
[00:23:30.987]and then we're sort of burying deep
[00:23:33.480]a lot of other aspects of who we are.
[00:23:36.270]And I am, I love this slide
[00:23:38.020]it's sort of a world unto itself.
[00:23:40.620]It's been, it's generated so much amazing conversation
[00:23:43.570]and social learning for me, and I keep adding things
[00:23:46.000]under that water line that people bring to these talks
[00:23:50.520]and they put that in chat, so I invite you all
[00:23:53.230]if there's something that's missing here, please let me know
[00:23:56.260]Recent additions from left to right
[00:23:58.340]for me, I've added neurodiversity, as I mentioned before
[00:24:01.510]something I'm really endeavoring
[00:24:02.730]to learn more about at this time.
[00:24:05.330]At the bottom left interaction
[00:24:06.970]with the prison incarceral system
[00:24:08.610]fascinating and talk about an emergency
[00:24:11.350]a talent emergency and opportunity, an economic emergency
[00:24:14.070]and such an opportunity for companies
[00:24:15.797]and organizations to hire those with conviction histories
[00:24:19.600]but there is a lot, a lot standing in the way of that.
[00:24:23.410]We have family status, socioeconomic status
[00:24:26.210]you'll see survivor status.
[00:24:27.610]Somebody gave that to me a month or two ago
[00:24:30.170]and I wanted to make sure I honor that and added it.
[00:24:33.450]At the bottom right, I have sober and in recovery
[00:24:35.650]a friend of mine shared all the covering behaviors
[00:24:38.660]over the many, many years
[00:24:39.930]and alcohol fueled client celebrations
[00:24:43.210]and after work parties that revolved around alcohol
[00:24:46.690]making her extremely uncomfortable being sober
[00:24:49.420]and also covering around meetings and getting the support
[00:24:52.870]and making up sort of other reasons
[00:24:54.720]for where she needed to go or be
[00:24:56.520]or couldn't make a meeting.
[00:24:58.580]And then I also, mental health is just an enormous challenge
[00:25:03.220]that I think is coming above that waterline
[00:25:05.740]in the pandemic, thank goodness.
[00:25:07.560]And I think we're, you know, we're starting to
[00:25:09.360]I think, grapple with it and PTSD
[00:25:11.190]I just added on the far right.
[00:25:13.620]Veteran status is another, when we think about identities
[00:25:18.680]or, and that's a secondary aspect of diversity,
[00:25:21.130]or a veteran because that's an acquired aspect.
[00:25:23.490]It's something we do in our life
[00:25:25.580]and then we become, but veterans have many, many examples
[00:25:29.490]of microaggressions and biases that they exhibit
[00:25:32.670]experience in the workplace and then cover as a result.
[00:25:36.310]So I think, when I think about the need
[00:25:39.860]we need, organizations of belonging are very good
[00:25:42.490]at lowering that water line.
[00:25:44.400]And we are all endeavoring to do that
[00:25:46.780]and we're getting comfortable being uncomfortable
[00:25:48.750]and we are sharing, what's called our intersectionality
[00:25:52.100]and Kimberle Crenshaw's definition of intersectionality
[00:25:55.320]is for her, the overlapping stigmatized identities
[00:25:58.953]of being Black and being female.
[00:26:01.470]And that is, she originated that definition and the term
[00:26:05.370]and when I think about it more broadly
[00:26:07.750]and take a page from Dr. Crenshaw,
[00:26:10.410]it's all of the puzzle pieces that make us who we are.
[00:26:13.740]And often we do have multiple overlapping
[00:26:16.660]stigmatized identities that we're managing
[00:26:18.380]front to back, back to front.
[00:26:20.020]I think of identity, almost like a Rubik's cube
[00:26:22.480]and maybe I'll show you the side and maybe I'll turn it
[00:26:25.620]and you'll see something else about me.
[00:26:27.480]And I always wanna share my story too
[00:26:29.680]because at this point in the talk, because I am also
[00:26:34.200]in addition to carrying a couple marginalized
[00:26:37.410]or underrepresented identities being an LGBTQ
[00:26:40.180]female cisgender, yes, female in a male dominated world
[00:26:43.940]I also carry very privileged identities.
[00:26:47.490]And it's been, I think, really amazing
[00:26:50.280]and deepened my work to talk about privilege
[00:26:53.960]in myself as part of the puzzle pieces
[00:26:57.040]not being afraid of it, not being
[00:27:00.600]interrupting, I think that the weaponization of it
[00:27:03.750]and the reason that so many people are afraid to, I think
[00:27:06.560]step into these conversations
[00:27:08.110]because we just don't know how to talk about it
[00:27:10.130]when we haven't experienced certain kinds of oppression.
[00:27:14.120]And the way I have found to talk about privilege that helps
[00:27:18.090]is that we talk about privilege with a goal,
[00:27:20.700]which is the goal we were given the privileges
[00:27:23.920]or we earned them, or they were not earned
[00:27:26.030]so they're either unearned and earned privileges.
[00:27:30.341]We were, those happened to us, or those were given to us
[00:27:33.800]because they came with an instruction manual.
[00:27:36.360]And the instruction manual is the actions
[00:27:39.220]that we need to take as a result of what is easier for us
[00:27:43.100]some of us, what is more comfortable, what is less risky?
[00:27:46.530]What do we have access to that others don't?
[00:27:49.970]Where can we push and be the squeaky wheel?
[00:27:53.140]Where are we not playing the advocacy-based covering game?
[00:27:57.060]You know, where are, where can we agitate?
[00:27:59.750]And I think that when you have certain kinds of privilege
[00:28:02.810]that shield you from consequences or risk
[00:28:06.930]that is a very clear action step to me.
[00:28:11.030]And so I'm trying to speak about privilege
[00:28:14.210]with a small p and really relate it to, honestly
[00:28:18.490]most of us have some kind of privilege, either earned
[00:28:21.370]or unearned that we could be activating a lot more
[00:28:24.000]and we could be sharing the work of DEI
[00:28:26.120]and belong in organizations of belonging more equally.
[00:28:29.880]And I don't think we have been
[00:28:31.410]because we've been leaving all the work
[00:28:32.870]to those of us who are the most marginalized
[00:28:36.570]in the system and the most fatigued.
[00:28:39.404]And that it is very, I think, unfair
[00:28:42.780]to ask those who didn't build the system
[00:28:45.440]to remedy and fix that system.
[00:28:47.700]So I believe that, and so I feel sort of simultaneously
[00:28:50.780]all of these identities in me, and it just depends
[00:28:54.560]which part of the Rubik's cube I'm showing
[00:28:57.190]and I'm leading with at the moment
[00:28:58.880]in terms of what I need and what I also can give.
[00:29:02.350]So I hope that's helpful for everybody
[00:29:03.880]as you think about all of the pieces of you
[00:29:07.750]I'd like to think about identity and experiences
[00:29:09.910]like nothing in us is wasted.
[00:29:11.380]There is someone out there that really needs to see
[00:29:14.140]and hear more of who you are because they are feeling alone
[00:29:18.530]they are feeling there is no path.
[00:29:22.230]And when I talk about being LGBTQ on stages
[00:29:25.510]with hundreds or thousands of people in front of me
[00:29:27.890]it's not always comfortable
[00:29:29.260]and it's not always something I wanna do
[00:29:31.160]but I say to myself, I gotta do this
[00:29:32.910]because it might make a real difference for someone
[00:29:35.160]and I will maybe never know who that person is
[00:29:37.150]and it doesn't matter, and so it's really powerful
[00:29:40.210]to think about lowering that waterline
[00:29:41.617]and making that a part of our day-to-day.
[00:29:45.350]In my second and most recent book,
[00:29:47.947]"How to Be an Inclusive Leader", I wanted to develop a model
[00:29:51.280]because I'm a consultant at the end of the day
[00:29:52.777]and I always think in terms of progression, how do we grow?
[00:29:56.210]How do we learn?
[00:29:57.043]What steps do we take?
[00:29:58.460]What's the roadmap?
[00:30:00.840]And we're all students on DEI
[00:30:02.690]and so am I, and so I came up with this model.
[00:30:05.680]I thought it was easy to, I think
[00:30:08.410]remember and think about with four steps.
[00:30:11.050]And it's really has to do with stepping forward
[00:30:14.410]and doing the learning and starting to activate your voice
[00:30:17.830]and then ultimately someday
[00:30:19.840]progressing to phase four, which is advocate.
[00:30:22.330]So I wanna go through these really quickly.
[00:30:24.910]Unaware is phase one, which is the, there's not a problem
[00:30:30.260]I'm not part of the problem, or I'm a good person
[00:30:34.210]I'm well-intended, I believe in equality.
[00:30:37.100]Sometimes I hear the, "Well, I have daughters
[00:30:39.420]so I get this gender diversity thing."
[00:30:42.360]And I just think that after the year we've had
[00:30:45.390]that we've got to go beyond good intentions
[00:30:49.630]and we also have to go beyond pointing to other people
[00:30:52.630]to say, well, this is their problem to solve.
[00:30:55.140]And I really, I feel like wrote the book for those of us
[00:30:58.230]who've been sitting on the sidelines, I think
[00:30:59.980]and not really grasping that there is a problem
[00:31:03.940]or having been told the problem, denying it
[00:31:07.120]or arguing with it or deflecting and saying,
[00:31:11.243]I've got this handled, I do this really well.
[00:31:14.540]And so, it's, there's a lot of sort of root causes
[00:31:18.770]for staying in unaware.
[00:31:20.130]So where we wanna get to is aware, which is phase two
[00:31:22.760]and by the way, the Inclusive Leader Assessment
[00:31:24.850]I talked about earlier, it's inclusiveleaderassessment.com.
[00:31:28.270]It will give you a report out
[00:31:30.450]on where we would put you on a couple of key metrics.
[00:31:33.950]So you might wanna really check that out.
[00:31:36.920]So for phase two, aware then it is now I'm awake
[00:31:40.530]now I know there's a problem,
[00:31:41.850]now I can describe where there are gaps in equity
[00:31:46.420]now I know what I don't know, and it's a lot.
[00:31:49.960]Now I wanna make a point here
[00:31:51.330]that some of us have been painfully aware
[00:31:53.280]our whole lives of who we are,
[00:31:54.863]it's not something that we can be asleep to
[00:31:58.270]and then all of a sudden in 2020, wake up to it.
[00:32:02.170]I, so there that's true and the awareness and the reminder
[00:32:07.420]of how difficult it is to be certain identities
[00:32:10.750]particularly this past week
[00:32:12.270]I mean, but it just keeps going on and on,
[00:32:14.380]I mean, every week I feel like I could say that
[00:32:16.130]for the like previous months and probably months to come
[00:32:20.460]is that painful awareness
[00:32:22.220]of the way we walk through the world differently,
[00:32:25.340]but for some of us we are just awakening to this
[00:32:27.960]that it hasn't been our experience.
[00:32:29.690]And so we need to learn, we need to study
[00:32:31.810]we need to prop our eyes open and not go back to sleep.
[00:32:35.450]You know, we need to be consuming media that's not made
[00:32:39.190]by and for people that identify as we do.
[00:32:42.340]We need to be pushing into that building of awareness
[00:32:44.360]and it can be uncomfortable
[00:32:45.860]and shame and guilt inducing, which I always wanna name
[00:32:51.000]because I know I've experienced moments like that
[00:32:53.600]of regret, of shame, of anger, of frustration, all of it.
[00:32:57.770]That's how you know you're alive,
[00:32:59.750]you should feel that you should feel the outrage
[00:33:02.910]either as that aspiring ally
[00:33:05.760]or as the person who's community's impacted directly
[00:33:09.240]and who has been directly impacted ourselves.
[00:33:12.250]So major sort of empathy is built in aware
[00:33:16.070]but the important thing then, of course is
[00:33:17.610]so what am I doing with everything I'm learning?
[00:33:19.740]And that's phase three, which is active.
[00:33:21.140]So this is, I'm going to use new language,
[00:33:24.260]I'm gonna stretch my vocabulary
[00:33:25.730]I'm gonna start to talk about things more overtly,
[00:33:27.680]or maybe more publicly,
[00:33:29.290]I'm going to start to talk about my diversity dimensions.
[00:33:33.370]I'm going to talk about my mistakes
[00:33:37.550]and what I'm doing to learn, which is really important.
[00:33:40.650]So I think the critical, critical thing
[00:33:42.390]in phase three is being comfortable,
[00:33:44.810]being uncomfortable, embracing imperfection
[00:33:48.280]because it's not going to be anywhere near perfect
[00:33:50.730]probably ever, understanding we're gonna make mistakes
[00:33:53.960]and not being fragile about it
[00:33:55.990]coming back and learning what we need to learn
[00:33:58.950]and kind of discarding the shame and guilt
[00:34:02.030]that can be extremely paralyzing if we stay in it too long
[00:34:05.040]and moving on and being flexible and agile
[00:34:07.750]and as we talk about failing forward
[00:34:10.040]we are going to fail before we develop competency.
[00:34:14.610]So this is a really important phase
[00:34:17.060]and I, people get stuck here.
[00:34:19.390]They say to me, "I don't wanna say the wrong thing."
[00:34:21.950]And to me that means you're learning, but you're hesitating.
[00:34:25.500]And there's really no way around
[00:34:27.840]that this competency development, but through
[00:34:30.630]and through means having those uncomfortable conversations
[00:34:33.470]not knowing where to start and starting anyway.
[00:34:36.180]So that is active and by, and over time, we build a muscle.
[00:34:39.950]You know, we don't jump into a marathon
[00:34:41.790]and run it with no training, but I think that
[00:34:44.250]between aware and active, we're building that muscle
[00:34:46.980]that enables us to learn how to recover quickly
[00:34:51.630]learn how to flex that muscle
[00:34:53.480]and use it in the appropriate places for the maximum impact
[00:34:57.140]which is advocate, which is phase four.
[00:34:59.350]So advocates are tireless, relentless, fearless, courageous
[00:35:05.650]pushy, squeaky wheel all day long, relentless, committed
[00:35:11.930]all of those things because they, you know,
[00:35:13.910]if you've deepened your awareness appropriately
[00:35:16.850]and you always are very humbled to everything you don't know
[00:35:19.780]but you're taking what you do know
[00:35:21.070]and you're doing as much as you possibly can with it.
[00:35:24.020]And you're trying to influence systems
[00:35:25.690]that you're in, that is advocate level.
[00:35:27.920]And thinking also about the equity lens enables us
[00:35:32.580]to look at the systems, the systemic problems.
[00:35:35.430]I think at this point, you know enough about how we got here
[00:35:39.220]and our job is to really dismantle
[00:35:41.720]harmful, biased systems that weren't built by and for
[00:35:45.690]to work for a lot of us and bringing that
[00:35:48.660]and saying, why do we do it this way?
[00:35:50.100]Why is it still this way?
[00:35:51.310]Why hasn't it been fixed?
[00:35:52.730]How can we fix it so it doesn't happen again?
[00:35:54.890]How can we remedy this?
[00:35:56.200]You know, these tough questions are really, really important
[00:35:58.880]and some of us are really ready to ask those.
[00:36:00.890]And I think can ask them with less risk
[00:36:03.920]than others who are, you know, can ask them
[00:36:06.500]but may be extremely tired
[00:36:08.210]or even penalized for asking the same exact questions.
[00:36:11.510]And so this is the model, again
[00:36:14.130]you'll see at the bottom, it goes from private to public
[00:36:16.650]it goes from lower risk to higher risk
[00:36:18.410]it goes from individual perspective
[00:36:20.530]to organizational perspective, so you see
[00:36:23.250]that we can kind of move up and down depending on our,
[00:36:27.700]whatever topic we're thinking of.
[00:36:29.950]You know, for me, I mentioned earlier
[00:36:32.900]I have some goals around becoming more of an aspiring ally
[00:36:36.320]for those who are neuro-diverse.
[00:36:38.100]So I'm broadening my language
[00:36:39.400]and trying to use different examples
[00:36:40.840]and storytell and understand the statistics
[00:36:44.570]and then I'm probably between phase two and phase three
[00:36:47.290]but for LGBTQ issues, I'd probably be phase four
[00:36:49.800]because I've been out for so long and studying,
[00:36:51.710]and within that community,
[00:36:53.130]but we still have many, many challenges of DEI
[00:36:56.950]and equity within the LGBTQ community too.
[00:36:59.840]So just because we're in one or two marginalized identities
[00:37:03.850]from a lived experience perspective
[00:37:05.250]doesn't mean that our work is done.
[00:37:07.410]It's always, always occurring
[00:37:09.820]but I wanna let you all know it's not an absolute
[00:37:12.203]that we can travel up and down
[00:37:14.700]and we should be traveling up and down
[00:37:16.210]all the time and learning.
[00:37:18.200]And so that is everything I brought for you
[00:37:21.430]and I can't wait to get to some Q&A in a moment
[00:37:23.970]but I just wanted to remind all of you about
[00:37:26.610]here's the QR code again on the upper right
[00:37:29.090]if you'd like to investigate more of our stuff
[00:37:32.630]and we'd love to have you, we have online programs
[00:37:34.640]where we get people started in this conversation
[00:37:37.190]from a hopefully to become practitioners someday
[00:37:40.000]meaning doing this as our day job,
[00:37:42.780]which is a wonderful field and a growing field
[00:37:45.540]I'm really happy to say, for extremely difficult
[00:37:49.360]and tragic and heartbreaking circumstances
[00:37:51.830]there has been, ever since the murder of George Floyd
[00:37:54.230]ages crescendo of interest in commitment
[00:37:57.220]and resources and positions being created.
[00:37:59.140]So we're sort of enduring, enduring, we are enjoying
[00:38:02.360]I guess, I hate to even use that word
[00:38:04.610]but people that do what I do are feeling valued
[00:38:08.220]and central in a way that we always wanted to be
[00:38:11.430]and so it's a really, very cool moment.
[00:38:14.160]And so I'm gonna stop share
[00:38:15.820]and come back to be with all of you
[00:38:18.320]and check out the Q&A
[00:38:19.670]which I actually haven't been looking at too much, but yes
[00:38:23.700]thank you so much for adding to this.
[00:38:27.020]So there's a question about adding social issues
[00:38:29.480]below the waterline, yes, I wonder if you mean
[00:38:34.270]I would love an elaboration on social issues, if you mean
[00:38:38.010]well, social issues aren't political issues
[00:38:40.220]but they are politicized, let me say that.
[00:38:43.740]But I like, I like your wording
[00:38:45.680]because these are social issues
[00:38:49.230]that should be not politicized, but universal.
[00:38:53.980]And so, and yet people, for example
[00:38:57.800]they cover their activism.
[00:39:00.150]They may spend the weekend or every weekend
[00:39:03.870]or every night being extremely involved in social justice
[00:39:08.480]and not able to talk about that
[00:39:10.350]or ever share that or trust colleagues with that, et cetera.
[00:39:13.700]And I find that a lot in the clients that I work with,
[00:39:16.820]so there's a lot of covering going on with that
[00:39:19.090]and then the sort of need to be professional.
[00:39:22.500]And I hate that word, but there is a lot of pressure
[00:39:25.630]and subsequent covering behaviors
[00:39:28.010]around bringing our full selves to work
[00:39:29.840]when we feel the social issues are impacting
[00:39:34.210]our mental health, our well-being, our ability to focus
[00:39:37.760]and I guess, perform or be productive in whatever that meant
[00:39:43.290]before this very, very taxing year occurred.
[00:39:47.050]So what I really desire is that we don't,
[00:39:50.170]we don't ever go back to what was expected of people,
[00:39:53.590]which was to sweep their differences under the rug
[00:39:55.720]to sweep the experience under the rug
[00:39:57.330]that they've been having and not bring that to work,
[00:40:00.780]because it is very much in the workplace
[00:40:02.930]and for us to choose that it's unimportant
[00:40:05.190]and choose not to see it, and to be silent about it
[00:40:08.260]is not acceptable, it's just not acceptable.
[00:40:10.710]So I deliver that very stern message
[00:40:13.760]as much as I possibly can to especially the C-suites
[00:40:16.750]that I work with and the executive leadership teams,
[00:40:19.310]it's just not enough anymore
[00:40:20.660]and it never was, but it's certainly not now.
[00:40:25.400]There's another question here
[00:40:26.500]as teachers making mistakes can have serious consequences.
[00:40:29.920]Yeah, thank you.
[00:40:34.160]I wish that there were more flexibility
[00:40:40.280]and calling in opportunities versus call out
[00:40:44.080]or canceling going on, I am just not a fan.
[00:40:49.270]As somebody who studies learning and who is a learner
[00:40:52.550]I know when I've been given feedback about mistakes
[00:40:55.640]in a way that is so gracious
[00:40:57.330]and leaves me so much room to hear it
[00:41:00.800]and to not be shamed in the process
[00:41:04.110]and to have others trust that I'm on my journey.
[00:41:08.500]And, but when it is, when we are scrutinized
[00:41:11.780]and given zero flexibility to literally learn
[00:41:15.590]in front of other people, which is what we all have to do
[00:41:18.130]I mean, it would be a luxury to learn in private
[00:41:21.150]and sort of burst forth and be perfect
[00:41:23.740]that is not gonna happen for any of us.
[00:41:25.647]And I just think, I think as teachers
[00:41:29.580]we've got a younger generation that is,
[00:41:32.640]I think, rather binary in terms of the way
[00:41:35.860]that the right and wrong is looked at.
[00:41:37.840]And I don't know how else to characterize it
[00:41:41.020]because as you grow and mature into life
[00:41:44.910]and I don't mean mature being a better, better human
[00:41:47.110]but just mature and go through more of life
[00:41:49.400]you realize that so much, there's just so many nuances
[00:41:54.240]and things are delicate, and there are many ways
[00:41:57.860]to look at somebody making a mistake
[00:42:00.430]or inadvertently repeating a microaggression.
[00:42:04.540]There are many decisions that can be made
[00:42:06.490]around how to turn that into that wonderful teachable moment
[00:42:10.040]where somebody doesn't get discouraged
[00:42:11.910]or shamed or embarrassed
[00:42:14.630]or not so much that they kind of stop,
[00:42:18.350]they stop their learning journey.
[00:42:20.390]To me, that's what I don't wanna have happen
[00:42:22.900]and so we try to talk a lot about
[00:42:25.610]call out culture versus calling in culture
[00:42:28.320]and what do, what does a calling sound like and feel like
[00:42:32.730]and how is it done effectively with grace and space?
[00:42:36.790]And I think we need to probably have a lot more conversation
[00:42:39.910]about defining that and role modeling that
[00:42:43.410]and even preparing for it, and I tell people I coach
[00:42:47.940]to put our learning journey out there,
[00:42:50.430]talk about the things, so many things
[00:42:52.360]we don't yet understand that we are studying
[00:42:54.470]that we are endeavoring to learn
[00:42:55.570]and that we will make mistakes
[00:42:57.240]and just open that door to it.
[00:43:00.510]And I think, therefore it's less of a gotcha moment
[00:43:03.350]but more of a checking in for feedback to say
[00:43:07.640]I'm endeavoring to do X, Y, Z,
[00:43:09.840]am I having the impact that I desire?
[00:43:11.820]Because here's my intent, but I am not at all sure
[00:43:14.990]especially in the absence of feedback,
[00:43:17.090]how am I achieving that?
[00:43:19.470]And if I'm not, what do I need to be doing differently?
[00:43:22.010]So I'm a big fan of kind of opening that door constantly
[00:43:25.160]so that we can be incrementally improving and not waiting
[00:43:28.760]for something to be, sort of be surprised with.
[00:43:34.090]And so, but it is an investment in relationships
[00:43:37.180]that is a constant thing and checking in, et cetera.
[00:43:40.200]And there has to be trust there
[00:43:41.230]in order to get that truthful feedback.
[00:43:44.590]So thank you, oh yeah
[00:43:46.230]and Ann, thank you for elaborating social issues.
[00:43:50.450]Political stuff in the workplace
[00:43:52.060]I have to tell you all, I wish I had a more elegant answer
[00:43:56.180]it feels to me like it is the third rail in the workplace
[00:44:01.480]in the past, in the past
[00:44:05.570]the answer was always on the business side
[00:44:08.640]we believe in inclusion because it's good for business.
[00:44:11.680]So when somebody said, for example
[00:44:14.847]"I have a problem with the rainbow flag being flown
[00:44:17.980]at headquarters on June, that is against my belief."
[00:44:22.670]There would be a conversation
[00:44:24.300]with somebody who expressed that to say,
[00:44:26.500]look, we, to thrive in business
[00:44:30.670]we need diverse teams of all identities.
[00:44:33.550]We need to be a welcoming environment,
[00:44:35.080]we want to attract all kinds of talent
[00:44:37.430]we don't want anyone to feel less than in this culture.
[00:44:42.440]And so by saying that, that community
[00:44:45.096]is something you don't agree with
[00:44:47.970]is harmful to our ability to innovate together
[00:44:50.970]our ability to trust each other
[00:44:52.270]our ability to, by the way, understand
[00:44:55.800]an evolving customer base, which is more Black and Brown
[00:45:00.690]more LGBTQ and gender non-binary,
[00:45:04.094]the world and the demographics are changing.
[00:45:07.320]So the answer traditionally has been
[00:45:10.330]which we call the business case, to say, look
[00:45:12.300]we, the inside of our organization, the demographics of us
[00:45:16.510]need to match the world, as not just as it is
[00:45:19.230]but as it's becoming, which will be more diverse
[00:45:22.200]in every way, more non-White, more non-male
[00:45:25.510]decision-makers, purchasing power, generational wealth
[00:45:28.680]all that is changing, and so that used to be the answer
[00:45:32.930]and I think is still a really, really strong answer
[00:45:35.020]it's the right answer.
[00:45:36.490]But those political beliefs and giving voice to that
[00:45:39.780]in workplaces is going to be a really, really tricky line.
[00:45:43.820]And so I wish I had a better answer for you,
[00:45:46.750]but that's what makes me sort of
[00:45:49.390]avoid the moral conversation sometimes
[00:45:51.990]and know that I really need to avoid that
[00:45:54.409]because that's not going to win most hearts and minds
[00:45:58.710]but the business case is powerful
[00:46:00.410]and there's so much statistics, so many statistics
[00:46:02.450]and so much you can lean on
[00:46:04.140]when you're having conversations about these things
[00:46:07.280]to just point to how the world is evolving
[00:46:09.980]and who is our future customer, who is our future leader
[00:46:14.100]and what is their demographic, what do they believe?
[00:46:16.450]And I think if we kind of point to that
[00:46:19.610]that can make a very compelling argument
[00:46:21.390]even if somebody doesn't agree
[00:46:22.690]from a values and a personal perspective.
[00:46:24.610]And by the way, when you sign up to lead people
[00:46:28.500]there are things private employers can expect.
[00:46:31.560]There are commitments that, you know, look
[00:46:35.280]you can be who you wanna be, believe who you wanna be
[00:46:37.380]but what we expect here is X, Y, Z.
[00:46:40.850]So there's that argument as well.
[00:46:44.140]So anyway, it's complicated, thank you for asking.
[00:46:49.140]So somebody asked, there are, yes
[00:46:51.970]invisible illnesses that aren't disabilities.
[00:46:55.030]I want to, I wanna add that
[00:46:56.690]thank you so much for somebody for bringing that up.
[00:46:59.730]Chronic illness, episodic illness, mental health crises
[00:47:06.610]protracted illness that or caregiving
[00:47:10.550]I mean, long-term kind of caregiving
[00:47:12.980]responsibilities is another thing, so thank you
[00:47:15.770]and I will make a note of that, that I wanna add that
[00:47:17.900]under the waterline of the iceberg, I appreciate it.
[00:47:20.760]Is there a benefit to stop covering?
[00:47:22.430]Is there literature showing these benefits?
[00:47:25.190]I would recommend, I'd point you all to the actual report
[00:47:29.250]which gives a lot more detail than I could today.
[00:47:31.700]It's called Uncovering Talent, it's so good
[00:47:33.900]it's maybe six years old by now
[00:47:35.770]and I would like to do an updated version, if I can
[00:47:40.230]to really broaden the number of things they looked at
[00:47:42.640]because it was a different time.
[00:47:44.540]It was even a different time
[00:47:45.590]I think a year ago, so much has changed
[00:47:48.480]but the benefit to not covering is multifaceted.
[00:47:53.260]In the research they talk about
[00:47:54.480]how it diminishes our confidence
[00:47:56.360]it diminishes our sense of self.
[00:47:58.480]So that is tragic and a missed opportunity
[00:48:02.480]and bad for all kinds of health for us.
[00:48:07.270]And we aren't then able to bring
[00:48:10.090]all of ourselves or more of ourselves
[00:48:12.260]to the workplace to change other hearts and minds around us.
[00:48:15.540]And so to stop, to create an environment
[00:48:19.130]where covering demands are not perceived
[00:48:21.240]by people in order to survive
[00:48:23.310]and there is so much psychological safety
[00:48:25.430]that people feel they can bring that
[00:48:27.690]what I call the discretionary effort, that extra something
[00:48:31.400]because they are so happy, they're so relaxed.
[00:48:35.130]I mean, what does it feel like to be relaxed
[00:48:37.030]because you're in an environment
[00:48:38.470]where you don't have to fight against these things?
[00:48:40.800]It means that you're more creative.
[00:48:42.080]It means that you have deeper relationships with people.
[00:48:44.000]It means you'll probably stay longer.
[00:48:46.780]So I think, in the covering report and near the end of it
[00:48:50.420]it does talk about the quantifiable benefits.
[00:48:52.460]I mean, I would argue it's, plain and simple
[00:48:54.840]it's retention, it's retention
[00:48:56.740]of the talent that you fight so hard to get
[00:48:59.670]and that you only to lose people because your culture,
[00:49:03.110]the day-to-day is so toxic that people can't stand it.
[00:49:07.110]That's not what you want as an outcome.
[00:49:09.520]So I do think covering is symptomatic to me
[00:49:12.470]of an unhealthy culture and if you can solve for it
[00:49:16.510]I think you're solving for belonging
[00:49:18.410]and then if you solve for belonging
[00:49:19.900]you're solving for innovation and retention
[00:49:22.770]and diversification because people want to stay.
[00:49:28.020]There's another question here,
[00:49:28.947]"I find when I advocate for a group
[00:49:31.440]my intentions are questioned.
[00:49:33.310]I'm straightforward in my intentions
[00:49:34.900]on standing up for groups that don't have a large voice
[00:49:36.960]and people don't understand.
[00:49:38.900]Is there a good way to show my intentions
[00:49:40.410]without offending those that don't believe me?"
[00:49:46.340]Yes, yes, yes.
[00:49:48.350]I guess I would wanna know which people are the ones
[00:49:51.060]that don't understand, or maybe you're hearing about it
[00:49:53.950]from all different kinds of people
[00:49:55.720]both those that you wanna be in solidarity with
[00:49:58.700]and also those that are in your identity group, if you will
[00:50:05.720]and there's criticism coming from all sides.
[00:50:10.370]Yeah, I do think, look, I think a really good, you know
[00:50:13.990]I don't mean this to be self-serving at all,
[00:50:15.900]but I mean, I really would, I would read my second book
[00:50:19.120]in a sort of book club environment.
[00:50:20.960]I would, I would generate a discussion
[00:50:24.120]around something that's very concrete together
[00:50:27.250]and that it talk, in my book, talks a lot about
[00:50:30.070]this concept of allyship, this concept of advocacy
[00:50:33.510]which is what your question is about.
[00:50:34.900]Like, how do I, how do I show my solidarity
[00:50:38.100]and win the trust when I am not a trusted
[00:50:41.270]I'm not from a trusted group?
[00:50:44.090]How do I overcome that?
[00:50:45.620]How do I, how am I vulnerable to that?
[00:50:48.450]And how do I sort of,
[00:50:49.520]how am I transparent about what my intent is
[00:50:51.950]but also obviously checking on my impact?
[00:50:54.520]And then also, how do I not look like somebody
[00:50:57.030]that's stepping outside of my identity group
[00:51:00.490]and sort of holding that group accountable?
[00:51:04.640]Because there can be a break.
[00:51:05.880]I do a lot of work with all kinds of identities of men
[00:51:10.530]in the masculinity conversation
[00:51:12.310]and one of the things that made such a huge impression on me
[00:51:15.380]is the concept of the man box.
[00:51:17.500]And it's been written about, there's a Ted talk
[00:51:19.670]I think by Tony Porter on the man box
[00:51:21.350]that you all should check out, but the man box taught me
[00:51:24.740]that when men step out of the man box,
[00:51:27.840]they get penalized, they get ostracized
[00:51:30.620]they pay a price, they lose connections and maybe status.
[00:51:36.240]And I think when you step out of a system
[00:51:39.290]that has benefited you in maybe unseen ways
[00:51:43.310]and now you're seeing it for the first time
[00:51:45.110]or it benefits, you know, it doesn't benefit others
[00:51:48.150]and you're watching it and kind of coming to understand that
[00:51:51.520]there is an element of going in alone.
[00:51:54.330]And I think the important thing is to find community,
[00:51:57.200]of people that are having the same experience
[00:51:59.520]and so that you can discuss it
[00:52:00.850]and be open and decompress number one,
[00:52:04.700]but also say, when I try to do this, this happens
[00:52:07.290]when I try to do this, this happens
[00:52:09.290]is that true for you as well?
[00:52:11.410]So I think, I'm a big fan of affinity groups.
[00:52:14.870]So employee resource groups, business resource groups
[00:52:17.600]that's what corporate calls them
[00:52:18.930]but I know affinity groups exist
[00:52:20.470]in all kinds of institutions
[00:52:22.430]and if they don't, please start one
[00:52:25.430]and even having ally affinity groups
[00:52:28.140]is a really interesting idea.
[00:52:30.250]So the ACLU is a group that I know pretty well,
[00:52:33.940]their structure, and they have the Black men
[00:52:36.680]Black men's affinity group,
[00:52:38.140]they have the Black women and non-binary affinity group
[00:52:41.050]and then they have an ally initiative
[00:52:43.750]and the allies, they are aspiring allies
[00:52:46.530]'cause we're only allies
[00:52:47.450]when somebody in an affected group calls us an ally
[00:52:50.290]it's not something we can kind of claim
[00:52:51.950]and say that I'm done, I have the pin
[00:52:54.870]but the ally group is doing its work of allyship.
[00:52:59.430]And if you are feeling like you can't get it right,
[00:53:02.690]like whichever way you turn
[00:53:03.900]I'm trying to do this, but it's misinterpreted
[00:53:06.190]and then I try to do this
[00:53:07.100]and it's misinterpreted by this other group
[00:53:09.580]you have a lot of company,
[00:53:11.240]this is happening everywhere, even for me.
[00:53:14.310]So I would say, enroll in whatever
[00:53:19.550]like online communities, webinars
[00:53:22.280]there's lots of stuff happening around allyship.
[00:53:25.000]And really there's no sort of, neat and tidy answer to this
[00:53:30.830]it's learning how to, it's learning how to express yourself
[00:53:35.470]and do so authentically and win people's trust
[00:53:40.360]in spite of our history with each other, for example.
[00:53:44.300]And also being vulnerable
[00:53:46.210]in whatever way you can lower your waterline.
[00:53:50.110]It goes a long way towards building trust
[00:53:51.940]and opening up dialogue
[00:53:53.360]and showing people that you're in it.
[00:53:57.300]You know, I love the difference.
[00:53:59.190]Some people think the difference between allyship
[00:54:02.094]and accomplicing or co-conspirator, which is sort of
[00:54:05.660]there's a lot of words and depends
[00:54:07.180]it's a matter of personal taste, I think
[00:54:08.730]but some people think ally doesn't go far enough
[00:54:11.250]because they picture somebody standing on the shore
[00:54:13.730]and watching somebody splashing around
[00:54:16.570]and drowning and struggling
[00:54:18.370]and there's this arms length energy to it
[00:54:22.380]but being advocate or co-conspirator
[00:54:25.160]in solidarity means jumping in the water,
[00:54:27.700]it means being alongside and it's not for the glory
[00:54:31.310]it's not a one and done, it is I'm here
[00:54:34.400]I'm here to listen, I'm here
[00:54:35.700]you instruct me what you need me to do
[00:54:38.170]or, and if that's nothing, I'm here
[00:54:41.370]and you don't, also don't wait to be asked
[00:54:44.180]we move forward and we do things
[00:54:46.150]without knowing how it's gonna play out
[00:54:48.230]but we know it's the right thing.
[00:54:49.320]So I just would say, know that you're not alone
[00:54:52.530]and know that there's these conversations
[00:54:54.630]are occurring in a lot different places
[00:54:55.970]you just have to go and find them, but I can promise you
[00:54:59.820]look up there's allyship webinars
[00:55:02.060]that are led by an organization called Change Catalysts.
[00:55:04.880]And I love, I love them, they're every week
[00:55:07.520]and it is focused literally on allyship.
[00:55:09.510]So your entire question
[00:55:11.030]it can live and breathe in those conversations.
[00:55:14.620]And I love, I love it too
[00:55:16.130]'cause I need a reminder sometimes
[00:55:18.280]that it's, this is something we're all endeavoring to do.
[00:55:21.480]And I'm almost out of time and the perfect timing
[00:55:25.160]'cause it's the last question.
[00:55:26.347]"Can I offer leadership stories that illustrate
[00:55:28.550]their guidance of an organization
[00:55:30.080]moving from unaware to aware?
[00:55:31.720]I'm interested how leaders may best lead
[00:55:33.640]and partner with employees through this transition
[00:55:36.640]in a way that creates buy-in and enriches the culture."
[00:55:40.990]Yes, that partnership between leadership
[00:55:43.750]and employees is critical, especially from unaware to aware
[00:55:50.110]I would say, remember leaders,
[00:55:52.310]leaders, I guess in the hierarchy sense,
[00:55:54.750]we're all leaders by the way
[00:55:55.810]so I wanna say leaders with a small l
[00:55:57.660]is leading at any level, leading up, leading laterally
[00:56:02.190]but if you have seniority
[00:56:04.360]from a leader, leadership perspective
[00:56:06.740]you cast a long shadow, there's a lot of eyeballs on you
[00:56:09.390]you're being watched all the time.
[00:56:11.650]So I do think when you think about your iceberg
[00:56:14.080]and you challenge yourself to get comfortable
[00:56:16.220]being uncomfortable when it comes to DEI
[00:56:18.200]and sort of mining, mining your diversity dimensions
[00:56:21.590]for example, whether that's inherent or acquired
[00:56:25.320]and thinking about how am I gonna challenge myself
[00:56:27.680]to be more vulnerable
[00:56:30.140]and have a lower waterline than I've had in my career?
[00:56:32.540]Because this is kind of a new skill.
[00:56:35.660]So going from that unawareness to awareness
[00:56:40.880]when, if we could be transparent about, I didn't know
[00:56:44.240]I didn't think, here's all the ways I was unaware
[00:56:47.700]here's all the ways I still am unaware
[00:56:49.780]and here's what I understand about awareness
[00:56:52.540]about being awake, about paying attention, about noticing
[00:56:55.420]about wanting to see difference
[00:56:56.980]and not sweeping it under the rug,
[00:56:58.690]about being uncomfortable.
[00:57:00.600]So I think that leaders set a tone
[00:57:04.597]and are mimicked and are watched, like I said
[00:57:07.620]so the choices we make about where to do our work
[00:57:11.280]and how to communicate it, sets a tone and normalizes
[00:57:16.960]normalizes others going on a journey with us.
[00:57:21.820]And it's important leaders do this because if I had a nickel
[00:57:25.150]for every time an employee said, "This is great.
[00:57:27.410]This is a great training program, Jennifer,
[00:57:28.920]but like really our leaders need to go through this.
[00:57:31.230]Like that's who really needs to have this."
[00:57:33.380]So everybody is thinking that,
[00:57:36.060]and leaders, I think have the most to learn
[00:57:39.760]they're the largest percentage I would say,
[00:57:42.790]and I don't have this data of unaware
[00:57:45.470]is at in the top leadership of most organizations
[00:57:48.880]because they lack the lived experience
[00:57:50.670]because of the generation,
[00:57:52.260]lots of the reasons we talked about earlier.
[00:57:54.390]So putting employees in the most knowledgeable category
[00:57:58.490]to say, I wanna learn, you're in the driver's seat
[00:58:01.530]I'm learning from our next generation of leaders.
[00:58:04.890]I even like setting up reverse mentoring as a concept
[00:58:08.370]thinking about how can we position mentors
[00:58:11.640]as our emerging leaders and mentees as the rest of us?
[00:58:15.220]Like what a fascinating concept,
[00:58:17.080]flip things around whenever you can
[00:58:19.400]whenever you can challenge hierarchy, do it
[00:58:22.210]because it has been so harmful
[00:58:24.070]and it has squelched so much potential
[00:58:26.820]in the way that it's been organized and structured.
[00:58:30.190]So I think if we can join hands and task our leaders
[00:58:33.800]with really doing the brave, uncomfortable work
[00:58:36.850]and then let that voice come up, come through
[00:58:40.150]of our emerging leaders and of our younger generations
[00:58:43.460]I think that would quickly accelerate going from unaware
[00:58:48.340]to aware and those listening, that listening tour
[00:58:52.540]we lead a lot of, a lot of listening tours in the last year
[00:58:57.330]there is a lot more listening going on than I've ever seen
[00:59:00.220]and putting people, if they want to be
[00:59:03.770]asking people to share their experience
[00:59:05.890]so that the rest of us can listen and learn and take action
[00:59:09.370]is the most important thing that we can always do
[00:59:11.950]but it's become extremely important,
[00:59:14.190]even this past week, even this past month.
[00:59:17.880]If you are Asian American, what does it feel like?
[00:59:21.180]What is happening with you, your family?
[00:59:22.880]What are you afraid of?
[00:59:23.820]What is this, how is this landing for you?
[00:59:26.460]Making space for all of that
[00:59:28.570]is I think what workplaces have to do
[00:59:31.240]it's part of our, it's part of creating belonging.
[00:59:34.040]So thank you all so much.
[00:59:36.440]I mean, this was like perfect timing.
[00:59:37.880]It was just, so glad that I, Marco did not get
[00:59:41.208]to any of these, and they were so thoughtful.
[00:59:43.710]So I just really appreciate it everybody
[00:59:45.336]and thanks for having me.
[00:59:47.660]No, thank you so much, Jennifer.
[00:59:49.560]This was great, I was taking copious notes
[00:59:52.230]as you were talking, so as a diversity practitioner
[00:59:55.290]I certainly follow your work and can always learn something.
[00:59:58.564]And so I have a few more nuggets to add to my toolkit
[01:00:02.540]so certainly thank you for that.
[01:00:05.120]And also just thank you for helping us
[01:00:06.877]and really assisting us in our own understanding
[01:00:09.510]and having a better understanding
[01:00:11.120]of particularly this theme around identity and culture
[01:00:14.110]and how they're interconnected
[01:00:15.750]and that sometimes they are covered,
[01:00:17.180]so they're covered and revealed and situated
[01:00:20.130]and positioned and impacted right by organizations
[01:00:23.010]so thank you for that.
[01:00:24.510]And also providing a pathway to inclusive leadership
[01:00:26.990]I too am a fan of models, so it's always great
[01:00:29.740]when you can have some sort of structured way
[01:00:32.560]to begin thinking about these topics
[01:00:35.370]that are sometimes very organic and very abstract.
[01:00:37.840]And so thank you so much for being able to do that,
[01:00:39.960]I truly appreciate it.
[01:00:42.440]As our last NCLUDE session,
[01:00:44.300]I also just wanted to take the liberty to thank Jessie
[01:00:48.730]along with our team member, Dr. Karen Castelbaum
[01:00:52.150]who actually, they were a part of launching NCLUDE
[01:00:55.430]for the first time this academic year.
[01:00:57.210]So I wanna thank them both,
[01:00:58.580]and particularly thank Dr. Castelbaum for her hardwork
[01:01:02.570]who will be retiring early this semester.
[01:01:05.010]And so she has just been a wonderful colleague
[01:01:09.210]and friend and supporter of our team, of UNL
[01:01:13.360]of all of us who are engaged in this work
[01:01:16.020]and trying to make more inclusive spaces
[01:01:18.770]for all of our organizations.
[01:01:20.810]I also want to, again, thank her for all her work,
[01:01:25.080]sweat, tears, energy, loves
[01:01:28.190]and just the love that she has
[01:01:30.280]and has poured into all that she does.
[01:01:33.180]So thank you, Dr. Castelbaum for your hard work.
[01:01:35.750]Also, thank you, Jessie
[01:01:37.550]who I know will be soon transitioning to another opportunity
[01:01:42.610]at Northwest Missouri State University.
[01:01:44.300]And so both Dr. Castelbaum and Jessie
[01:01:47.080]have just been amazing members of our team
[01:01:49.840]and certainly will be missed as we move this work ahead.
[01:01:53.550]And so it's been a pleasure again, being a part of
[01:01:56.810]and having you be a part of our NCLUDE series
[01:01:59.320]and at this time, I will turn it over to Jessie Peter.
[01:02:04.520]Thanks Dr. Barker, I also wanna thank
[01:02:07.130]Dr. Friday and Ms. Charlie
[01:02:08.570]for facilitating the three sessions today.
[01:02:11.090]I wanna thank Dr. Castelbaum for creating NCLUDE.
[01:02:16.260]I wanna thank Jerry, Abby and Ipshita
[01:02:19.057]for your help in organizing the NCLUDE events.
[01:02:22.630]Thanks Mitch, for providing live captioning.
[01:02:25.380]On behalf of the Office of Diversity and Inclusion
[01:02:28.440]I thank all the speakers for sharing with us
[01:02:31.200]and I thank each one of you
[01:02:32.730]for your involvement in making NCLUDE a success.
[01:02:35.820]Thanks everyone, have a good weekend.
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