Transitions, IDEA and Autism

Karen Haase Author

04/14/2021 Added

48 Plays

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[00:00:00.100]Awesome, thanks so much. Again, welcome back.
[00:00:04.220]I'm going to assume that all of you were on the keynote,
[00:00:06.640]so you don't need to hear my whole life story
[00:00:09.330]about how I was a teacher and now I'm an attorney.
[00:00:12.850]During the keynote I had Q&A from awesome school-side folks
[00:00:18.050]and family folks and from,
[00:00:20.740]I did not realize this, but it's really cool,
[00:00:23.360]that we have folks who are adults on the autism spectrum
[00:00:27.650]who are also participating in this.
[00:00:29.060]And, gosh, I love the additional perspective
[00:00:31.450]that those folks added to the last session.
[00:00:34.160]So I just wanna reinforce that I love the interaction
[00:00:37.880]and, just like the keynote, I'd rather answer questions
[00:00:40.940]and talk about transition generally
[00:00:42.540]than march through a set of prepared slides.
[00:00:45.150]As I said before, KSB School Law,
[00:00:47.180]my entire law firm is focused
[00:00:48.650]on representing public school districts.
[00:00:50.110]That's all we do, so we don't represent individuals.
[00:00:53.810]We don't give legal advice to teachers
[00:00:56.440]or to individual administrators as individuals
[00:00:59.430]or to parents or families or anything like that.
[00:01:02.110]I'm happy to be a resource,
[00:01:04.230]that's why I provide my contact information,
[00:01:06.660]but this is not actually me representing
[00:01:09.270]anybody that's participating.
[00:01:11.540]These slides are not legal advice. It's for education.
[00:01:15.140]You have no expectation of confidentiality.
[00:01:16.940]I mean, it's all the same stuff I said before,
[00:01:18.390]but I just have to make that clear.
[00:01:20.430]Just like last time, I wanna give you as many pathways
[00:01:23.740]to interaction as possible.
[00:01:26.160]I will keep an eye on the chat and the Q&A.
[00:01:29.880]As you saw from the keynote,
[00:01:31.060]for some reason my multi-screen setup isn't working for me,
[00:01:34.350]so it's a little more clunky than normal
[00:01:36.450]for me to check questions and chats, but I will do that.
[00:01:40.160]I also have an eye on my cell phone
[00:01:41.930]for those of you that are participating in large groups
[00:01:43.980]where it's not convenient for you to walk up
[00:01:46.730]to the actual computer that's hooked up to the Zoom.
[00:01:48.980]So you can shoot me a text. That's my cell phone number.
[00:01:52.490]The materials for the keynote
[00:01:54.030]and for this transition session are located
[00:01:57.750]at this link on our website
[00:01:59.470]as well as on the conference platform.
[00:02:03.200]These materials will stay available indefinitely.
[00:02:06.150]We don't take stuff down off the website,
[00:02:09.410]so it's always there for you to come back
[00:02:13.240]and look at as a resource.
[00:02:15.390]So I think transition is just such an interesting topic
[00:02:18.720]and really something that we as advocates
[00:02:22.560]for students on the autism spectrum,
[00:02:25.290]whether school side or parents side,
[00:02:27.810]that we really need to focus in on
[00:02:30.350]because students with autism are going
[00:02:33.430]to be wandering around this world of neurotypicals
[00:02:36.300]for the rest of their lives, right?
[00:02:37.950]And one of my partners is on the spectrum,
[00:02:41.590]and we spend a lot of time talking
[00:02:43.200]about how he learns to navigate a world of neurotypicals.
[00:02:46.940]So I think we should be working with kiddos that,
[00:02:50.340]from jump, about how we're going to manage that.
[00:02:53.270]So I wanna talk about our obligations generally
[00:02:56.090]to do transition.
[00:02:57.430]I wanna talk about how schools would do assessments
[00:02:59.650]to figure out what transition needs a student might have.
[00:03:02.370]Talk about planning a transition.
[00:03:04.800]I wanna spend a little bit of time talking
[00:03:06.290]about individualization because, remember,
[00:03:08.740]the I in IEP stands for individual,
[00:03:12.320]and so we can't say that students
[00:03:15.150]with autism spectrum disorder need blah, blah, blah.
[00:03:18.530]It always should be driven of a discussion
[00:03:20.990]of the individual needs of the student.
[00:03:23.340]And then we'll talk
[00:03:24.420]about the sufficiency of goals of services
[00:03:26.390]and implementation of the transition plan.
[00:03:32.010]Again, I'm just entertained by these cartoons.
[00:03:33.880]I think it makes...
[00:03:35.630]I'm just entertained. That's all.
[00:03:37.100]So I'm imagining that you're laughing hysterically.
[00:03:39.880]So the obligation to do transition planning
[00:03:43.050]and transition assessments all flows from the federal law.
[00:03:46.580]This is the citation to the code of federal regulations
[00:03:49.700]that implements the IDEA.
[00:03:51.730]And it says, "Beginning no later than the first IEP
[00:03:54.590]in effect when the child turns 16,
[00:03:56.910]or younger if determined appropriate, the IEP must include
[00:04:00.190]appropriate measurable post-secondary goals,"
[00:04:02.980]so what our goals are for this child
[00:04:05.320]after he or she graduates high school
[00:04:07.840]or ages out of the public school program.
[00:04:11.887]"Based on age-appropriate assessments related
[00:04:14.660]to training education, employment, and, where appropriate,
[00:04:17.910]Independent living skills."
[00:04:19.490]And see how the "and" is italicized?
[00:04:21.350]Because we do a pretty good job of one
[00:04:24.000]but not always the other.
[00:04:25.710]And the transition services, including the course of study,
[00:04:28.860]needed to assist the child in reaching those goals.
[00:04:31.520]So saying that Karen plans
[00:04:32.890]to go to the University of Nebraska,
[00:04:35.010]that might be an appropriate measurable post-secondary goal,
[00:04:38.780]but that's not sufficient, right?
[00:04:40.290]Then you need to say,
[00:04:41.123]"What transition services are we gonna provide Karen?"
[00:04:44.850]Things like, "Does the University of Nebraska program
[00:04:49.090]that I want to attend require me
[00:04:50.420]to take a foreign language?"
[00:04:51.420]And, "Should we try that in high school
[00:04:53.540]instead of doing it in college?"
[00:04:54.690]That sort of thing has to also be included.
[00:04:59.880]It is a source of great confusion,
[00:05:01.780]especially for families that move
[00:05:04.640]from one state to the other,
[00:05:06.880]to have the lobby different in different states
[00:05:09.300]when the IDEA is a federal law.
[00:05:11.370]So federal regulations do allow states
[00:05:14.770]to require a younger age for transition services.
[00:05:17.890]Both Iowa and Kansas require transition beginning at age 14.
[00:05:22.240]In Nebraska, transition begins at age 16.
[00:05:24.980]So a family could move from Iowa into Nebraska in an IEP
[00:05:29.780]that's serving a child for the year in which she turns 14,
[00:05:33.410]and those transition services would not be,
[00:05:35.803]I mean, we have to implement the IEP, but the next IEP
[00:05:38.960]or the replacement IEP would not necessarily
[00:05:42.190]include transition services in Nebraska
[00:05:44.350]because the state obligation in Nebraska begins with 16.
[00:05:48.130]There is some push to have the age lowered to age 14 again.
[00:05:53.010]Particularly for students
[00:05:54.050]with autism spectrum disorder issues,
[00:05:56.840]there a huge advocacy push
[00:05:59.900]to have transition services begin at a younger age.
[00:06:03.230]Since individuals with autism spectrum disorders
[00:06:05.980]sometimes struggle with generalization,
[00:06:08.650]being able to master skills in one context
[00:06:10.870]but not in another, the argument is that we need
[00:06:13.540]to start talking about transition
[00:06:15.040]and how a student might generalize skills learned
[00:06:18.020]in one context into the other context.
[00:06:20.520]We need more time to work with individuals
[00:06:24.510]on the spectrum for that sort of thing.
[00:06:26.897]And I don't know where that's gonna head.
[00:06:28.610]I think a Biden administration will be much more open
[00:06:31.710]to considering lowering the federal age.
[00:06:34.360]It used to be 14, and then they bumped it up to 16,
[00:06:36.617]and it's very possible that they could bump it
[00:06:38.520]back down to 14.
[00:06:41.170]Transition guidance
[00:06:42.210]from the Office of Special Education Populations
[00:06:45.530]and the OCR generally advises IEP teams
[00:06:48.340]to start thinking about transition at 14
[00:06:51.220]even if you don't have to have a formal plan at 16.
[00:06:54.150]So this is one of these places where I can give a tip
[00:06:57.220]or a trick to parents that are listening.
[00:06:59.640]When your kiddo turns 14,
[00:07:01.220]there is nothing inappropriate with asking the team,
[00:07:04.017]"Can we start talking about transition
[00:07:07.030]even if we don't put specific transition goals in the plan,
[00:07:10.060]but can we talk about what my child might want to do
[00:07:13.150]after he or she graduates high school
[00:07:15.460]or ages out of the program?"
[00:07:17.960]So transition services are supposed
[00:07:19.720]to be a coordinated set of activities.
[00:07:21.763]It's supposed to be a results-oriented process
[00:07:24.980]focused on improving the academic
[00:07:26.660]and functional achievement of the child
[00:07:28.360]to facilitate the child's movement
[00:07:30.130]from school to post-school activities.
[00:07:32.260]Could be post-secondary, could be vocational,
[00:07:34.950]could be an integrated or supported employment,
[00:07:37.700]continuing and adult services,
[00:07:40.710]independent living or community participation.
[00:07:42.760]It could be any or all of that.
[00:07:45.500]And then it also should be based
[00:07:46.880]on the child's individual needs.
[00:07:48.570]And here's something that we all need to remember:
[00:07:51.360]taking into account the child's strengths,
[00:07:54.040]preferences, and interests.
[00:07:56.310]So often we spend time talking about
[00:07:59.100]what people are going to do for the child or with the child,
[00:08:02.570]but we don't take the time to ask a student
[00:08:04.900]with a disability, "What is it that you want?"
[00:08:07.690]Right?
[00:08:08.523]And even severely communication-limited individuals
[00:08:12.660]can express preferences.
[00:08:14.320]We can give that person the agency
[00:08:17.730]to articulate some of their interests and preferences
[00:08:20.950]so that the student is not always being acted upon
[00:08:24.130]but has agency over the plan
[00:08:27.390]that we're putting together for that child.
[00:08:30.867]So one of the other things that we're required to do
[00:08:34.390]when we're putting together a transition plan
[00:08:36.620]is that the school is required to do assessments.
[00:08:39.810]Transition assessments are frustrating
[00:08:41.610]because they're a little bit
[00:08:42.443]like assistive technology assessments.
[00:08:44.580]When we talk about assessing a child
[00:08:47.210]to see whether or not the child falls on the spectrum,
[00:08:49.910]we have a set of tests that we can do, right?
[00:08:52.270]We can do the BASS.
[00:08:53.990]There's all these different tests and scales,
[00:08:57.010]and we can ask teachers and parents.
[00:08:58.850]And sometimes we can ask the student for input.
[00:09:01.960]Both assistive technology and transition,
[00:09:04.680]there is no like Wyatt IQ test to figure out
[00:09:07.850]what a transition plan might look like.
[00:09:10.970]There's no form. There's no rubric.
[00:09:13.020]There is no standardized test.
[00:09:15.270]But we should go back to the basics then.
[00:09:16.890]We should talk about what the IEP is required to consider.
[00:09:22.800]I think that you can use a whole slew of standardized tests
[00:09:27.460]like the PSAT or the ASVAB, all those kinds of things,
[00:09:31.430]but I also think we should be really reluctant
[00:09:33.740]to over-rely on those assessments as well.
[00:09:38.730]I don't think that any school...
[00:09:41.740]If I can go into your school
[00:09:43.050]and pull all of your IEPs for 16 and up students,
[00:09:47.420]I should not be able to see the same transition plan copied
[00:09:52.460]and pasted for different sets of students, right?
[00:09:55.620]And what I see all too often is schools
[00:09:58.320]that know that students with disabilities are planning
[00:10:01.200]on going to college or community college,
[00:10:03.120]they steal from the IEP from the other kid
[00:10:05.440]that's gonna go to college or community college
[00:10:07.290]and sort of cut and paste that
[00:10:08.620]into a bunch of different IEPs.
[00:10:10.660]Guys, the Department of Ed has seen that,
[00:10:12.970]they are looking for that,
[00:10:13.970]and that is not an individualized plan.
[00:10:16.440]So please don't make the plan the exact same
[00:10:19.530]for every student.
[00:10:21.620]I don't see it the same for every student.
[00:10:23.300]I see it the same for every kiddo that's going to college
[00:10:25.710]and sometimes the same for every kiddo
[00:10:27.370]that is not going to graduate and is gonna continue on
[00:10:30.010]to like community environments and that sort of thing.
[00:10:33.630]Don't be cutting and pasting those transition plans.
[00:10:37.270]Remember, this is on a sticky note by my computer,
[00:10:40.510]and I think every special educator
[00:10:42.280]should have this constantly in front of them
[00:10:44.990]when they're working on IEPs.
[00:10:47.680]The Endrew F. case says "an IEP is not a form document."
[00:10:51.500]We should not be cutting and pasting over and over.
[00:10:54.450]I think we should use a variety of both form.
[00:10:56.380]Well, I think we do a pretty decent job of, like I say,
[00:10:58.987]ASVAB, Career Cruise, and that sort of thing,
[00:11:01.380]but I think we should also remember
[00:11:02.960]that we need to take into account the student's interests,
[00:11:05.340]so we can use a bunch of informal assessment tools as well.
[00:11:08.900]Nebraska's transition technical assistance stuff
[00:11:12.470]is really, really good.
[00:11:14.340]If you have not gone
[00:11:15.610]to the Special Education department's page
[00:11:20.010]on the NDE website
[00:11:21.500]and looked at their technical assistance on transition,
[00:11:24.150]I speak all over the country,
[00:11:25.630]and I speak a lot on transition,
[00:11:27.850]like I say, all over the country,
[00:11:29.180]I consistently use Nebraska as the model.
[00:11:31.960]And if your state doesn't have these resources,
[00:11:34.580]go look at what Nebraska has put together
[00:11:36.290]'cause it's really good.
[00:11:38.300]This Letter to Olex came out
[00:11:40.820]at the end of the 2018-19 school year,
[00:11:45.870]and it kinda freaked me out (chuckles)
[00:11:47.690]because the question that was asked
[00:11:50.280]to the Office of Special Education Populations was,
[00:11:53.587]"Hey, we're getting ready to do a transition plan
[00:11:56.750]for a kid that's going to turn 16.
[00:11:59.250]Do we need parental consent
[00:12:01.100]before we do the transition assessments?"
[00:12:03.410]And basically the question is,
[00:12:04.530]do we have to have consent to evaluate
[00:12:06.490]before the kid takes the ASVAB
[00:12:08.700]or the career interest survey?
[00:12:11.640]Is that an evaluation that requires consent?
[00:12:14.820]Then it kind of scared me because we have traditionally,
[00:12:17.330]in the Nebraska districts I've worked with,
[00:12:19.860]not sought parental consent to do those evaluations.
[00:12:22.510]So I was like, "Oh, my gosh."
[00:12:24.280]Good news, you do not need consent, schools,
[00:12:28.010]to do transition assessments.
[00:12:30.130]Parents and parent-side advocates that are listening,
[00:12:32.750]there's not a separate consent form necessary
[00:12:34.740]for transition assessments
[00:12:37.610]because the purpose is not really to evaluate
[00:12:39.810]whether or not the child has specific disabling conditions;
[00:12:43.410]the purpose is to figure out what services the child needs
[00:12:46.130]to continue beyond the public school experience.
[00:12:51.180]Now notice, you would need consent
[00:12:53.240]if the task was to determine
[00:12:54.670]whether or not the child continues to have a disability
[00:12:57.640]or the nature and extent of the special ed-related services.
[00:13:01.510]But if it's just to figure out
[00:13:02.590]what we're gonna do for transition,
[00:13:03.740]you do not need consent.
[00:13:06.930]That's that. I just said this.
[00:13:08.930]I get excited and forget that there's another slide coming.
[00:13:12.680]Okay, I don't think there's any questions,
[00:13:14.270]so I'm just kinda pausing a second to pull up...
[00:13:18.160]Yup, so far, so good.
[00:13:20.370]Okay, so I think the assessment lets the school do all
[00:13:23.630]of this good stuff.
[00:13:26.005]And I always make the point to special educators
[00:13:30.350]that really I think once a child has reached the age
[00:13:34.590]where they are entitled to transition,
[00:13:36.650]I really think we start with transition.
[00:13:38.580]I know everybody gets into IEP meeting,
[00:13:40.780]and we sit around the table,
[00:13:42.100]and we start by talking about the child's strengths, right?
[00:13:44.970]Because everybody loves talking about how the good things
[00:13:47.870]that this child is learning to do or has done
[00:13:50.140]or their positive characteristics.
[00:13:51.960]And I always, like, I get a lot of juice
[00:13:54.370]from listening to folks talk about the positive things
[00:13:56.730]that are going on with the kiddo.
[00:13:58.170]And then you wanna talk about their needs,
[00:13:59.903]and you wanna talk about this.
[00:14:00.736]And then you roll into goals.
[00:14:02.270]And then at the very end we do transition, right?
[00:14:04.380]I mean, I've been in so many IEP where that is what we do
[00:14:07.890]because that's what we do for kids
[00:14:09.260]that are under the age of 16,
[00:14:10.610]except we don't tack transition on.
[00:14:12.630]I think that's a mistake.
[00:14:14.210]I think we should start the IEP meeting for the kiddo
[00:14:17.660]that is of transition plan age.
[00:14:20.080]I think we start by talking
[00:14:21.750]about what the student's goals are, right?
[00:14:23.930]So let me give you an example.
[00:14:25.400]My kid, who turns 21 tomorrow,
[00:14:28.390]but when he was in middle school,
[00:14:31.040]he thought he wanted to be a doctor.
[00:14:33.130]Now I can tell you that as his mom,
[00:14:35.710]I knew when he was like in fifth or sixth grade
[00:14:38.280]that unfortunately this poor kid inherited
[00:14:41.280]his mother's STEM skills,
[00:14:43.250]which is to say math and science aren't his jam.
[00:14:46.730]His dad is really good at that stuff,
[00:14:48.577]and I was kinda hoping that at least one of my kids
[00:14:50.650]would inherit their dad's technical brain, but they didn't.
[00:14:54.837]And so when Eli announced that he wanted to be a doctor
[00:14:57.640]in seventh grade, I was like, "How is this gonna work out?"
[00:15:00.950]Now parents, especially parents of students
[00:15:03.290]with disabilities, that's such a fraught stage, isn't it?
[00:15:06.740]Where your child has hopes and dreams,
[00:15:08.920]but they also have these limitations,
[00:15:10.560]and you don't wanna squash their dreams,
[00:15:12.610]but you also don't want them to like go down a path
[00:15:15.900]that's not gonna be super successful.
[00:15:18.100]So in seventh grade, when Eli said he wanted to be a doctor,
[00:15:20.900]I was like, "Well, let's talk to your counselor
[00:15:22.370]'cause we probably should get you bumped up
[00:15:25.090]into some more aggressive science and math courses,"
[00:15:28.320]which we did, which was horrible
[00:15:31.250]because eighth-grade math was a nightmare.
[00:15:33.710]That kid was not ready for algebra.
[00:15:36.010]And so, but here's the thing:
[00:15:38.520]his goal to be a doctor drove the education decisions
[00:15:42.210]that we made, right?
[00:15:43.750]And at the end of eighth-grade algebra, Eli said,
[00:15:47.137]"My teacher says that if you wanna be a doctor,
[00:15:49.150]you have to take a lot more math in high school,
[00:15:51.360]so I'm thinking maybe I don't wanna be a doctor."
[00:15:53.910]And I was like, "you know what, buddy? I support you.
[00:15:55.570]That's the right choice," right?
[00:15:57.440]So starting with the goals,
[00:15:59.700]even if we're not entirely sure the goals are,
[00:16:02.900]I don't wanna say achievable
[00:16:03.930]'cause I never want to limit somebody's dreams and hopes,
[00:16:06.710]but even if we're like,
[00:16:07.617]"Wow, that would be a big stretch for the kiddo,"
[00:16:09.880]if we start transition planning early
[00:16:12.350]and we let the goals drive
[00:16:14.210]what we're gonna try this school year,
[00:16:16.830]if it's not successful
[00:16:17.663]and the kid changes his or her mind, that's okay.
[00:16:20.140]We can back up and change things the next year.
[00:16:22.200]That's why we should talk
[00:16:23.040]about transition every year, right?
[00:16:24.730]So I think starting with transition is what we should do
[00:16:28.140]even for a child that we don't think is gonna go on
[00:16:31.410]to college or kind of post-secondary education right away.
[00:16:35.620]Starting with that, like, Johnny wants to farm.
[00:16:37.930]I have been in lots of IEPs where that's the goal.
[00:16:40.120]Johnny wants to work on the family farm.
[00:16:42.160]Okay, great, let's start with that,
[00:16:44.310]and then we can talk about strengths and weaknesses
[00:16:46.470]and put a plan together that supports the child
[00:16:48.930]in that goal.
[00:16:49.763]So I think transition really becomes the centerpiece
[00:16:53.100]of the IEP, not something that we tack on the end
[00:16:56.160]even if it comes at the end on the SRS form.
[00:17:00.142]So this is just, (chuckles) again,
[00:17:02.000]I get excited and move ahead on the slides
[00:17:03.920]and forget that I've got things coming.
[00:17:07.610]I also want to reinforce
[00:17:08.860]that transition assessment is a cycle, right?
[00:17:11.410]A student who has a transition plan
[00:17:13.560]at age 15 rolling into 16 of going to college,
[00:17:18.330]we don't just cut and paste "going to college" every year.
[00:17:21.070]As the child moves through their high school experience,
[00:17:23.730]their going to college becomes more flushed out, right?
[00:17:27.740]Going to college and majoring in some kind of humanities.
[00:17:30.290]Going to college and majoring in being a doctor.
[00:17:32.500]Going to UNL. Going to college out of state.
[00:17:34.820]Because both my kids were like, "I ain't staying in Lincoln.
[00:17:37.110]I don't want to be chained to Mom and Dad forever."
[00:17:40.270]So as those details emerge, that's why it's a cycle,
[00:17:43.260]and you keep kind of embroidering onto the plan
[00:17:47.490]and not just cutting and pasting from year to year.
[00:17:52.000]So this is a case that just gives you the illustration
[00:17:55.010]of why I'm so anti cut-and-paste, cookie-cutter transition.
[00:18:01.130]A lot of schools,
[00:18:02.210]and most of you from school environments probably have this,
[00:18:06.130]a lot of schools include a sort of college
[00:18:09.250]and career-readiness component to their curriculum
[00:18:12.100]for typically-developing students.
[00:18:13.950]So in Eugene school districts in Eugene, Oregon,
[00:18:17.370]every student was required to take a career class,
[00:18:20.680]participate in a career day, and tour a college.
[00:18:24.000]So what the school did is then for students
[00:18:26.190]with disabilities who were planning on going to college,
[00:18:28.920]for their transition, sadly,
[00:18:31.160]they just put those same three things
[00:18:33.640]into the transition plan.
[00:18:35.410]Now hear me, especially hear me parents:
[00:18:38.120]just because the school does it for everybody
[00:18:40.830]doesn't mean it's wrong for a child
[00:18:42.480]with a disability, right?
[00:18:44.440]It probably would be very appropriate for a child
[00:18:46.497]with a disability to take a career class,
[00:18:49.240]to participate in a career day, and a tour of college
[00:18:51.740]if the child's transition plan is to go to a college, right?
[00:18:55.680]But school people, hear me:
[00:18:56.880]you can't just cut and paste for every single kid
[00:18:59.230]and say (slaps hands), "Transition's done," right?
[00:19:02.300]And for the girl's transition goals,
[00:19:04.750]the student said that she wanted to be an attorney
[00:19:07.560]or have something to do with being a lawyer advocate,
[00:19:11.350]which good for her, that's awesome.
[00:19:13.780]So the goals were learning skills related a job in the law,
[00:19:17.760]acquiring a part-time job in a legal office,
[00:19:20.290]and then they had some life skills: learning to cook,
[00:19:22.480]maintain an apartment, and make a budget.
[00:19:24.380]Those are not inappropriate goals,
[00:19:26.520]but they weren't based on any transition assessments.
[00:19:29.050]The only basis for saying that she wanted to be a lawyer
[00:19:31.930]was one interview with the student.
[00:19:33.960]So they hadn't looked at her skills and abilities.
[00:19:36.060]They hadn't looked at whether or not she had had any kind
[00:19:39.680]of, what I want to say, like facility,
[00:19:41.940]like whether this was something
[00:19:44.060]that was gonna click for her.
[00:19:45.190]And it's not enough just to grab a kid
[00:19:47.880]the day before the IEP meeting and say,
[00:19:49.287]"Hey, what do you wanna be when you grow up?"
[00:19:51.200]That's not a transition assessment, right?
[00:19:54.680]The actual services that they wrote into the IEP said
[00:19:57.760]that the student would take two classes:
[00:19:59.530]one, a class on finance and, one, a class on career.
[00:20:03.350]That is, again, classes that they offered to all students.
[00:20:06.680]That she would participate in a career day.
[00:20:08.380]Remember, everybody did that.
[00:20:10.530]And that she would visit a local community college.
[00:20:12.420]Again, everybody did that too.
[00:20:14.850]The problem arises...
[00:20:16.470]So they put all this stuff into the IEP,
[00:20:18.940]which is probably what they put into every IEP.
[00:20:21.460]The student never took the career transitions class.
[00:20:24.780]When she went to sign up for classes,
[00:20:26.290]she chose to take an art class instead.
[00:20:30.080]They did not take attendance on the day
[00:20:32.530]that all the students went
[00:20:33.500]and visited the community college,
[00:20:35.040]so we don't know if she went and visited or not
[00:20:37.060]because since it was something
[00:20:38.920]that was generally applicable,
[00:20:40.330]like the whole herd went to the community college,
[00:20:42.720]but they had no record of her
[00:20:44.350]as a unique service being provided this visit.
[00:20:47.990]She did walk through a career day,
[00:20:49.660]like where they had tables set up in the auditorium,
[00:20:52.780]but that's really not transition, right?
[00:20:56.550]The school argued this...
[00:20:58.140]School people, hear me:
[00:21:00.010]it's never a great legal argument
[00:21:01.650]to say it's the student's fault
[00:21:02.980]that they didn't get the services
[00:21:04.180]that they should have gotten.
[00:21:05.400]The school is like, "Hey, it's her own fault.
[00:21:06.840]She took art instead of finance, that was on her.
[00:21:09.540]If she would have taken the career class
[00:21:11.520]she would've taken the Career Cruising website assessment.
[00:21:15.410]She would have had all this other stuff done for her."
[00:21:18.350]And the court said, "Really, this is your job, school.
[00:21:22.110]You can't tell the girl that she can sign up
[00:21:24.160]for whatever classes that she wants to,
[00:21:26.110]and then when she signs up for the wrong class,
[00:21:28.110]blame her for the deficiencies of your transition plan."
[00:21:31.020]And the District Court of Oregon also said the IDEA
[00:21:35.670]does not mandate a particular transition assessment tool,
[00:21:38.840]so there's no checklist of things
[00:21:40.830]that you have to give a student,
[00:21:43.280]but you can't do a single interview of a kid
[00:21:45.410]and call that a transition assessment.
[00:21:47.040]That is insufficient.
[00:21:49.500]The transition classes were available to all students,
[00:21:51.820]that doesn't mean it's wrong,
[00:21:53.360]but they can't be a one size fits all that every student
[00:21:56.530]with a disability gets these same three things
[00:21:58.690]all the way through.
[00:21:59.870]So this case is, it's just a classic transition case.
[00:22:02.560]We see this happening over and over again in schools,
[00:22:05.860]where they kind of have like a set group of things
[00:22:09.660]that they do for students who need transition.
[00:22:12.520]Now one of the other arguments the school made here was,
[00:22:16.007]"Hey, you know what?
[00:22:17.050]This girl graduated high school
[00:22:18.460]without any significant problems.
[00:22:20.320]Her accommodations were sufficient.
[00:22:21.960]She graduated, I think,
[00:22:23.420]it was in the upper third of her class.
[00:22:25.730]She didn't have any harm from our failure to do transition
[00:22:29.290]'cause she's gonna be super successful."
[00:22:31.380]And I love this quotation.
[00:22:34.197]"Academic and social success in high school
[00:22:36.480]is weak evidence that a student will succeed
[00:22:39.010]in the less structured environments of work and college."
[00:22:42.210]Particularly, remember, this is a student
[00:22:44.250]who's on the spectrum.
[00:22:45.430]So we know for sure that one of the characteristics
[00:22:49.010]of individuals with autism spectrum disorder
[00:22:51.330]is that they typically do better
[00:22:53.750]in highly structured environments
[00:22:55.440]and they can sometimes flounder
[00:22:56.930]in less structured environments.
[00:22:58.640]So simply saying that this girl was successful
[00:23:00.960]in the structured environment of high school,
[00:23:02.830]so she didn't need transition services,
[00:23:05.100]the district court is not buying that.
[00:23:07.910]So I'm hitting the next sentence.
[00:23:09.097]"In view of the special difficulty
[00:23:10.720]of showing educational harm vis-a-vis a student's readiness
[00:23:14.797]to navigate a future transition, I conclude that the ALJ,"
[00:23:18.450]the state-level hearing officer,
[00:23:20.067]"reasonably relied on the only evidence available,
[00:23:23.040]the extent to which the transition services
[00:23:25.170]were individually tailored to meet the student's need.
[00:23:28.110]Here there was no such individual tailoring
[00:23:30.330]and no appropriate assessment,
[00:23:32.840]so the educational harm standard is satisfied."
[00:23:35.960]Schools, I hear from parents of students with disabilities
[00:23:39.050]all the time when they say things like,
[00:23:42.927]"The school only sees my kid
[00:23:45.680]when he or she has gotten to school dressed
[00:23:48.580]and ready for the day and everything looks great.
[00:23:50.830]The school does not know how hard it was for us
[00:23:54.000]to provide the life skills supports to get the kid up
[00:23:57.160]and dressed and showered and ready to go."
[00:23:59.100]So even if a student on the spectrum is able to participate
[00:24:03.350]in mainstream classes, you might...
[00:24:05.290]You should, not might.
[00:24:06.440]You should talk about,
[00:24:07.737]"Does this student needs explicit instruction
[00:24:09.930]on life skills?
[00:24:10.990]Is this an area where Mom and Dad are filling the gap
[00:24:14.760]in the high school context,
[00:24:16.500]but we need to provide that explicit instruction
[00:24:18.980]so that the student can be released from the limitations
[00:24:22.400]of having Mom and Dad do that stuff?"
[00:24:24.120]And I think that is exactly
[00:24:26.510]what this district court is addressing here,
[00:24:28.740]that just because you're successful in high school
[00:24:31.630]does not mean that you're automatically
[00:24:33.620]don't need transition services.
[00:24:36.130]So this is a great question.
[00:24:37.480]First off, thank you, Kim, for asking a question
[00:24:39.430]'cause it feels like I've been talking for a long time
[00:24:41.110]without any questions from folks.
[00:24:43.947]"So how does voc-rehab fit into the assessment piece?
[00:24:47.160]Is the school able to use a transition assessment
[00:24:49.540]that VR has used?"
[00:24:50.980]If you have a transition from VR,
[00:24:53.030]1,000% you should make use of that.
[00:24:56.190]I don't know that you can outsource all your transition.
[00:24:59.460]If voc-rehab is involved, you can't say,
[00:25:01.087]"Well, you're gonna do the assessments and give it to us."
[00:25:04.180]But I believe that when voc-rehab is involved
[00:25:06.690]and had the chance...
[00:25:08.550]How do I say this nicely?
[00:25:09.650]Voc-rehab does a great job.
[00:25:11.220]Sometimes it takes us a while
[00:25:12.450]to get them up and going, right?
[00:25:14.243]Just 'cause they're so jammed.
[00:25:16.360]But if you're lucky enough
[00:25:17.250]to have voc-rehab actively involved,
[00:25:19.090]I would use that assessment.
[00:25:21.020]I would probably want to supplement it
[00:25:22.860]with some school-based,
[00:25:24.480]at least some discussions with the student,
[00:25:27.530]maybe some assessments administered by the school district,
[00:25:31.550]but there's absolutely no reason
[00:25:32.850]not to consider the voc-rehab assessments as well
[00:25:35.330]'cause I think that's good data.
[00:25:37.840]Oh, (chuckles) so I was, again, I had this quote,
[00:25:41.940]and it was broken out just the way I read it to you.
[00:25:44.930]So, sorry, that's the color-coded thing.
[00:25:48.930]All right, so that's assessment.
[00:25:50.260]Now I wanna talk about transition planning.
[00:25:52.750]Everybody knows that the public agency
[00:25:55.810]is supposed to invite the child with a disability
[00:25:57.950]to attend the IEP meeting
[00:25:59.960]if we're gonna talk about transition.
[00:26:01.910]And the reason this requirement exists in the federal law
[00:26:04.850]is so that the child can speak into what their interests
[00:26:09.350]and intentions are after high school.
[00:26:12.890]And I think most everybody knows that if the child,
[00:26:15.740]for whatever reason, doesn't attend that meeting,
[00:26:18.150]we have to do other things as a school to make sure
[00:26:21.020]that we've considered the child's interests and preferences.
[00:26:24.500]Now the question about voc-rehab.
[00:26:27.290]You should, if you're going to invite voc-rehab,
[00:26:30.350]you have to invite the representative
[00:26:31.990]of that participating agency to attend the meeting,
[00:26:35.450]and you have to seek and obtain consent from Mom and Dad
[00:26:38.710]for that person to participate every single time, right?
[00:26:43.540]So if Mom and Dad consented
[00:26:44.700]to voc-rehab participating in the IEP held the year,
[00:26:48.210]the 15, 16 year for the kiddo,
[00:26:51.390]the year that the kid is 16 turning 17
[00:26:53.640]we have that IEP meeting,
[00:26:55.150]we have to get consent again for voc-rehab to attend,
[00:26:58.740]and if we don't get consent voc-rehab can't attend.
[00:27:01.250]So we should invite voc-rehab,
[00:27:03.100]but we have to get consent every single time.
[00:27:06.660]Now what happens when the kid doesn't show up
[00:27:10.470]at the IEP meeting?
[00:27:11.950]That question is addressed in this Baltimore County case.
[00:27:14.740]And I know the attorney for Baltimore County
[00:27:17.570]and really like him, he's a really good guy,
[00:27:20.750]and I give him a hard time about this case all the time
[00:27:24.130]because this could happen to any of us.
[00:27:26.260]So this is a student who's on the spectrum.
[00:27:28.560]The school district appropriately included
[00:27:31.200]in the notice of the IEP meeting
[00:27:32.740]that we were gonna talk about transition.
[00:27:35.320]And the school also invited both Dad,
[00:27:38.270]who is the parent that was actively participating
[00:27:40.950]in this kid's life, and invited the student.
[00:27:43.600]So far, so good.
[00:27:45.440]So everybody shows up for the IEP meeting.
[00:27:48.130]It's held during the school day.
[00:27:50.090]We look around the table, got somebody in the parent chair,
[00:27:52.380]got somebody in the gen ed chair.
[00:27:54.270]All the people that are supposed to be there are there.
[00:27:56.200]Away we go. Kiddo is not in the IEP meeting.
[00:28:00.800]Now the school did not have a process
[00:28:02.780]of going down the hallway and grabbing the kid
[00:28:04.840]and dragging them down, pulling them out of class.
[00:28:07.320]The school said, in general,
[00:28:08.610]if the parent wanted the kid there,
[00:28:10.200]they thought that it was the parent's job
[00:28:11.770]to go get the kid from class.
[00:28:14.160]And the parent didn't say anything about, "Where's my kid?"
[00:28:16.600]Or, "I want Johnny to come down here."
[00:28:18.330]So the school said, "We leave it up to the parents
[00:28:20.640]about whether or not the kid should be brought
[00:28:22.820]out of class."
[00:28:24.070]Full stop.
[00:28:26.840]I believe that if you think about the IDEA has us progress
[00:28:32.550]through the different stages of a child's life,
[00:28:35.660]if you think about it correctly,
[00:28:37.350]you will know the answer to this question, right?
[00:28:40.330]So let me put it this way.
[00:28:41.750]When a child is a little, birth to three,
[00:28:44.250]we don't write an IEP; we write an IFSP.
[00:28:47.920]The services are owed to the family,
[00:28:49.900]and it's the job of the public entity
[00:28:52.630]to provide the supports to the parents
[00:28:55.210]and family members necessary to help them help their child.
[00:28:59.790]That's why we serve those kids
[00:29:00.900]in their natural environment, right?
[00:29:02.310]Because it's helping the people that work with this child
[00:29:05.910]to help them help the child.
[00:29:07.400]Then child turns school age.
[00:29:09.160]Now the IEP is centered on the child,
[00:29:11.987]the services that we're giving to the child,
[00:29:13.810]not to the family,
[00:29:15.070]but it continues to be the things that we're doing to
[00:29:17.550]and for the child until the kid turns 16.
[00:29:20.870]Suddenly at age 16, the child becomes an agent
[00:29:25.120]in his or her education, if you will,
[00:29:27.260]and they have to be there because that kid has a right
[00:29:30.880]to speak into the things that are going to happen to him.
[00:29:33.800]That's different than the right of a third grader deciding
[00:29:36.070]whether or not they're gonna take Mrs. Johnson
[00:29:38.820]or the resource room for reading.
[00:29:41.480]This kid when we're talking transition
[00:29:43.680]has a right to speak into it.
[00:29:45.270]And so it's a natural progression,
[00:29:46.880]just like raising kids as parents,
[00:29:49.400]where we're continually empowering kids as they move on,
[00:29:52.990]and then ultimately, hopefully,
[00:29:54.320]releasing them out into the world in some shape or form.
[00:29:58.230]So here, if you think of it that way,
[00:30:00.900]it's not the parents call
[00:30:02.730]about whether or not the kid comes to the meeting, right?
[00:30:05.370]It's not the parent's right to have the kid there.
[00:30:08.370]It's the kid's right, him or herself, to be there.
[00:30:12.020]And the school saying, "Well, it's dad's fault
[00:30:14.600]because he didn't ask for the student,"
[00:30:16.150]I think if you think of this in the right way,
[00:30:18.750]it becomes obvious that that's not going to be a winner.
[00:30:22.240]Now the school had a second argument.
[00:30:24.760]The school said, "Even though the kid wasn't there,
[00:30:27.290]he did have the ability to speak in
[00:30:30.000]to what we were gonna talk about for transition
[00:30:32.490]because our transition coordinator
[00:30:34.080]had an extensive interview with this kiddo
[00:30:36.340]and talked about what his hopes and dreams were
[00:30:38.400]for the future and what he wanted us to do."
[00:30:41.700]Dad files a complaint
[00:30:42.810]with the State Department of Education,
[00:30:44.930]and his complaint is that this
[00:30:46.010]was not a validly constituted IEP
[00:30:48.050]because the student wasn't at the meeting.
[00:30:50.520]His second complaint was that this transition coordinator
[00:30:53.740]that interviewed the kid,
[00:30:55.300]that person wasn't at the IEP meeting
[00:30:57.200]and didn't actually create the transition plan.
[00:30:59.980]They just passed on the results
[00:31:01.450]of the interview onto the team,
[00:31:03.280]and then the team used that interview
[00:31:04.850]to talk about transition planning.
[00:31:07.900]Maryland Department of Ed said, "Good job, school.
[00:31:11.080]You invited the student to the meeting as required,
[00:31:14.430]and the student's interests
[00:31:16.137]and preference were communicated to the team."
[00:31:19.380]So the fact, the school district did commit a violation
[00:31:22.810]by not going and getting the kid
[00:31:24.600]and dragging him down to the meeting,
[00:31:26.850]but the State Department of Ed said,
[00:31:29.772]"The backup argument is a winner because we were able
[00:31:32.702]to get the interest and preferences from the kid
[00:31:35.010]because we had this extensive interview," right?
[00:31:38.000]So it's sort of like the bullet shot past the school,
[00:31:40.670]and they ducked just enough to have it not hit them.
[00:31:43.920]But notice here that the right of the student to have input
[00:31:47.700]must be observed whether it's having the kid in person
[00:31:50.760]or if you can't have the kid in person,
[00:31:52.420]having this extensive interview.
[00:31:54.680]Now the other argument,
[00:31:55.870]the fact that the transition coordinator
[00:31:58.480]wasn't in the meeting, that was a loser.
[00:32:00.840]The IDEA does not require the interviewer
[00:32:03.090]to be in the meeting.
[00:32:04.320]It does require the school to work hard
[00:32:07.770]to get input from the student
[00:32:09.290]about what he or she wants for transition.
[00:32:14.640]So two questions.
[00:32:15.620]Thank you. I love it when you ask questions.
[00:32:17.307]"What if the parent says,
[00:32:18.257]'My child doesn't need transition services'?"
[00:32:23.120]Parents, I love you, and I do think you are partners
[00:32:26.600]in us serving students with disabilities,
[00:32:29.830]but the truth of the matter is,
[00:32:31.370]that would be like a parent saying,
[00:32:32.497]"My kid doesn't need to learn to read
[00:32:34.640]because she's gonna stay and work on the family farm."
[00:32:39.250]Our obligation to provide transition is not conditioned
[00:32:42.700]on the parent's agreement that the student needs transition.
[00:32:46.700]If the parent says, "My kiddo doesn't need transition,"
[00:32:49.290]my response would be,
[00:32:50.527]"Well, we still need to because of state and federal law.
[00:32:54.050]We still need to interview the kid.
[00:32:55.970]We need to talk about what his or her preferences are
[00:32:58.550]for post-secondary life."
[00:33:00.960]Just like a typical-developing student will take ASVAB
[00:33:04.820]and career classes and finance,
[00:33:07.570]we just need to do it in a more structured way
[00:33:09.520]for the student with a disability.
[00:33:10.880]So parents can't really opt out of transition services,
[00:33:15.370]and I don't think we should.
[00:33:17.370]I think we should try to explain to the parents
[00:33:18.760]why it's so important.
[00:33:21.050]Oh, Katie, this is such a good question.
[00:33:23.587]"Is it okay if a chunk of the transition activities
[00:33:26.210]are the same for multiple students?"
[00:33:27.710]And she says, "For example, life skill classes,
[00:33:30.650]participate in voc-rehab, attend the job fair,
[00:33:33.190]as long as there's some
[00:33:34.190]individualized activities listed as well."
[00:33:36.730]Absolutely.
[00:33:37.700]There is an Iowa case,
[00:33:39.010]and I don't know if we'll get to it or not,
[00:33:40.210]but there's a great case out of Iowa where the school said,
[00:33:43.417]"The student's transition, part of their transition,
[00:33:46.470]is gonna be performed in a personal finance class,"
[00:33:50.350]and that personal finance class anybody could take.
[00:33:53.090]And Mom and Dad said, "That's not individualized
[00:33:55.870]because other kids could take the class."
[00:33:57.770]And the Iowa Department of Ed said,
[00:33:59.617]"Oh, no, you don't understand
[00:34:01.200]what we mean by individualized.
[00:34:02.980]Individualized does not mean that it has to be one-on-one.
[00:34:06.260]Individualized means that the team considered the needs
[00:34:09.220]of this individual student
[00:34:11.430]and made a decision about this kiddo being able to benefit
[00:34:15.430]or having this class be appropriate for him."
[00:34:18.500]So Katie, when you say students are working
[00:34:21.610]in a life skills class, as long as you don't say,
[00:34:24.257]"All kids with autism take life skills,"
[00:34:26.750]that's an example of not individualizing.
[00:34:29.570]but if you say,
[00:34:30.817]"This particular student who's on the autism spectrum
[00:34:34.050]would benefit from life skills,"
[00:34:36.050]then she can take life skills with other students,
[00:34:38.420]and they can learn personal finance
[00:34:40.860]and laundry and self-care.
[00:34:42.640]All of that stuff can be taught into a group.
[00:34:44.770]So the individualization is the kid's services
[00:34:48.000]not the provision of,
[00:34:49.920]the identification of the services
[00:34:51.460]not the provision of the services.
[00:34:52.700]How about that?
[00:34:54.260]So absolutely a job fair, voc-rehab,
[00:34:57.490]all of that could be done in a group
[00:35:00.040]as long as the team has talked
[00:35:01.350]about each individual member of the group,
[00:35:04.200]it being appropriate for them.
[00:35:06.250]I hope that makes sense.
[00:35:07.940]Most IEPs are currently done via Zoom, which I love.
[00:35:12.630]I have to tell you, Zoom IEPs are a revelation for me.
[00:35:16.460]I just think it's so much better for everybody.
[00:35:18.220]I hope we continue some of this after COVID.
[00:35:20.903]It's one of the few good things about COVID, I think.
[00:35:24.160]So, anyway, back to the question.
[00:35:25.607]"If the 16 year old does not want to participate
[00:35:28.040]or is intellectually disabled,
[00:35:29.900]can the IEP proceed with just the parents?"
[00:35:33.150]Yes and no.
[00:35:34.150]Yes, if, for whatever reason, because it's not academically
[00:35:38.680]or cognitively appropriate for the child
[00:35:41.110]to be part of the meeting, or like the kid...
[00:35:43.510]Some 16 year olds are just like,
[00:35:45.307]"Screw you, I ain't doing it.
[00:35:46.530]I'm not getting on Zoom. You can't make me."
[00:35:48.620]You certainly can proceed without the parents,
[00:35:51.660]but, but, but notice this Baltimore case.
[00:35:55.080]The reason the school won is because they had done
[00:35:57.670]an extensive interview with the student,
[00:36:00.130]and the student's preferences and desires were articulated
[00:36:03.950]to the team in the student's absence.
[00:36:06.350]So if you have IEP meetings where the 16-year-old
[00:36:09.360]or 17-year-old student cannot or will not participate,
[00:36:12.910]that's cool, but we need something from the school side.
[00:36:16.670]It can't just be parents saying, "I know what my kid needs."
[00:36:19.100]Something from the school side
[00:36:20.560]to ensure that the child's preferences
[00:36:22.960]and interests have been identified and are being honored.
[00:36:26.438]And again, that has to be more than what we had in Oregon,
[00:36:29.280]where it was just like a quick grab the kid and say,
[00:36:31.127]"Hey, what do you wanna do when you grow up?"
[00:36:32.770]So an extensive interview,
[00:36:33.970]some kind of a conversation that's been documented
[00:36:37.320]that the kid's interests are being honored,
[00:36:40.190]then you can proceed without the student being part
[00:36:43.130]of the IEP meeting.
[00:36:44.760]Great question.
[00:36:47.320]Okay, no Q&A. Text message.
[00:36:53.230]Okay, something from my kid's girlfriend.
[00:36:57.450]She's planning a surprise birthday party for him.
[00:37:00.440]Okay, so once we figured out what the assessments tell us,
[00:37:04.670]once we figured out who's at the meeting
[00:37:06.910]and what the child's preferences and interests are,
[00:37:09.890]now we're down to drafting the transition plan.
[00:37:12.790]The transition statement has to include three areas.
[00:37:16.250]And it's nice 'cause a lot of the stuff
[00:37:18.270]for us in Nebraska is cued by SRS.
[00:37:21.610]We have to include instruction, community experiences,
[00:37:25.110]and development of employment
[00:37:26.370]and other post-school living objectives.
[00:37:29.290]Every single transition statement
[00:37:30.870]has to include those three things.
[00:37:33.240]In addition, when it's appropriate,
[00:37:35.060]it might include the acquisition of daily living skills,
[00:37:38.060]and it might include the acquisition
[00:37:40.160]of functional vocational evaluation, voc-rehab.
[00:37:43.770]One thing I wanna draw your attention to here, educators,
[00:37:47.360]notice that a student can be academically very competent,
[00:37:52.350]can be planning on completing the regular curriculum,
[00:37:56.260]but this is especially true of students
[00:37:59.070]with autism who cognitively...
[00:38:02.230]It's a spectrum disorder, and lots of times students
[00:38:04.120]with autism are cognitively very, very capable,
[00:38:06.680]but those students may still have daily living skills needs
[00:38:11.580]even if they're not in a functional curriculum otherwise.
[00:38:15.205]Don't be cookie cutterish either way.
[00:38:18.090]Don't cookie cutterishly limit individuals on the spectrum
[00:38:21.700]to say, "You can't do this high flying stuff.
[00:38:24.700]You can't take Honors English," or whatever.
[00:38:26.720]But also don't say that
[00:38:28.010]because you're taking Honors English,
[00:38:29.750]you don't need life skills, right?
[00:38:31.280]Again, we have to consider the individual needs
[00:38:33.760]of the student.
[00:38:35.460]And I would just pause it. And I've seen this a lot.
[00:38:39.240]Students who are very academically capable
[00:38:41.590]who are on the spectrum also may struggle with social skills
[00:38:45.280]and also may struggle with things
[00:38:46.650]like personal hygiene or like dressing,
[00:38:51.280]like not wearing the same outfit day after day
[00:38:53.160]or, if so, what the social implications of that are.
[00:38:56.640]Those are all daily living skills
[00:38:58.160]that we probably should be addressing with kids
[00:39:01.420]even if they are academically just moving on straight on
[00:39:04.550]into post-secondary education with no big drama.
[00:39:11.193]One question that comes up is, how do we report on progress?
[00:39:15.460]You have to report progress towards the goals,
[00:39:18.680]but you don't have to report progress on the services.
[00:39:22.180]So saying if the goal is Karen's gonna work
[00:39:25.930]on daily living skills, you can say,
[00:39:28.517]"Progress is adequate," and include some notes,
[00:39:30.870]but you don't have to on that progress report articulate
[00:39:34.160]every single service that you've been providing.
[00:39:36.450]Now one thing I will note,
[00:39:37.730]we should be documenting somewhere
[00:39:39.350]that these services are being provided.
[00:39:42.040]We are sitting ducks as a school.
[00:39:44.130]If we provide the services and don't document it,
[00:39:46.340]it's like we didn't provide them at all.
[00:39:48.060]So do make sure that we're documenting both,
[00:39:51.130]but we don't have to report it on a progress report.
[00:39:54.689](Karen groans)
[00:39:56.840]Both parents and educators,
[00:40:00.730]when we're in IEP meetings
[00:40:02.400]and we're struggling with how to articulate the services
[00:40:05.410]that a child is gonna receive,
[00:40:07.690]there is a temptation to say "if needed" or "as needed,"
[00:40:12.420]and that makes me crazy.
[00:40:13.960]And this is true not just for transition,
[00:40:15.700]although I see it in transition a lot.
[00:40:18.460]This is true all the way through all the IEPs I ever read.
[00:40:23.800]If you are struggling to articulate
[00:40:26.830]when a child might need explicit instruction
[00:40:32.780]on hygiene, for example,
[00:40:34.410]if you can say,
[00:40:35.243]"Karen will be cued to blow her nose as needed," right?
[00:40:39.200]That could be an appropriate thing
[00:40:41.960]that you're going to put into the IEP,
[00:40:44.160]but I don't want you just to leave that sit
[00:40:46.660]because what does as needed mean in that context, right?
[00:40:50.710]I encourage IEP teams and parents
[00:40:53.490]to think like a baseball umpire, right?
[00:40:55.640]We know that the strike zone generally
[00:40:57.910]is between the shoulders and the knees.
[00:40:59.900]Some umpires have a higher strike zone,
[00:41:02.090]some umpires have a lower strike zone,
[00:41:04.220]but we do have a rubric, right?
[00:41:05.930]We do have guidelines for generally what a strike is.
[00:41:09.970]And so if you're gonna say,
[00:41:12.007]"Karen is gonna be cued to blow her nose as needed,"
[00:41:14.710]I think you should say something like,
[00:41:16.497]"As needed when her nose is stuffy,
[00:41:21.720]when she's having difficulty breathing,
[00:41:23.660]or when any mucus is visible," right?
[00:41:25.410]I mean, something to say, "This is when we're gonna do it."
[00:41:28.390]Now you're all out there saying, "Come on, Karen.
[00:41:31.230]Everybody knows (chuckles) if there's mucus visible,
[00:41:35.070]that would be as needed."
[00:41:36.620]But I'm just here to tell you,
[00:41:37.950]I think we are setting our,
[00:41:39.940]the people that are implementing this plan,
[00:41:41.920]we're setting them up for failure
[00:41:43.390]if we don't give them some rubric.
[00:41:45.450]And I think we owe it to parents
[00:41:47.130]to tell them what that means, right?
[00:41:48.810]Because parents, we don't always have a common understanding
[00:41:51.470]from the parents side of what the school thinks
[00:41:53.510]is as needed.
[00:41:54.470]So I'm a huge advocate for it.
[00:41:56.730]I've been in IEP meetings where we're struggling
[00:41:58.520]to describe something, and we say, "As needed."
[00:42:01.193]I mean, I don't think as needed is always inappropriate.
[00:42:03.790]Some attorneys will say, "Never write as needed."
[00:42:06.240]I'm not that lawyer.
[00:42:07.910]But I do think we need to say,
[00:42:09.727]"How are we gonna decide when it's needed?"
[00:42:12.390]if you see what I'm saying, provide a rubric,
[00:42:15.030]provide examples of when the service might not be needed
[00:42:18.670]or make the discussion, like I say,
[00:42:20.750]make the discussion about the strike zone
[00:42:22.710]not about whether each pitch is a ball or strike.
[00:42:29.010]Hold on a second.
[00:42:32.460]I'm sure you laughed hysterically
[00:42:33.810]at this cartoon. (chuckles)
[00:42:36.690]If I haven't said it enough,
[00:42:37.980]be careful of the cookie cutter.
[00:42:40.100]This kinda goes back to one of the issues
[00:42:41.800]that we were talking about in the keynote,
[00:42:44.250]which is that students with an IEP
[00:42:47.180]also have rights under Section 504.
[00:42:49.960]And one of the things I want you to be aware of
[00:42:52.070]is a cookie cutter IEP, I think, violates FAPE.
[00:42:55.790]It does. There's no doubt.
[00:42:56.920]Endrew F. tells us that.
[00:42:58.670]But a cookie cutter IEP
[00:43:00.100]also violates a special education student's rights
[00:43:03.270]under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act.
[00:43:06.630]That's because the Supreme Court in this Olmstead case said
[00:43:09.980]that it was a violation of the Rehabilitation Act
[00:43:12.780]and of the ADA for employers and, in this case,
[00:43:17.830]institutions of higher education and/or public schools
[00:43:21.330]to treat all disabled people categorically, right?
[00:43:25.690]So not only is it a violation of the IDEA to say
[00:43:28.600]that all students on the autism spectrum need life skills,
[00:43:33.350]that's a violation of the IDEA,
[00:43:35.320]it's also a violation of Section 504
[00:43:37.440]because it's discriminatory.
[00:43:39.350]You are using outdated,
[00:43:42.740]categorical, discriminatory mindsets
[00:43:46.370]to limit the abilities of this individual person
[00:43:49.180]when their disability may not present in that way.
[00:43:52.370]So I'm worried about...
[00:43:53.877]And the reason I make such a big deal
[00:43:55.370]about that as a school attorney
[00:43:57.490]is IDEA remedies include compensatory education,
[00:44:02.790]like you can get more services,
[00:44:04.430]but 504 and ADA remedies include compensatory damages
[00:44:08.650]and money damages.
[00:44:10.490]So I just point out that the cookie cutter is dangerous
[00:44:13.460]for lots of reasons.
[00:44:15.320]It has to be intertwined with all the aspects
[00:44:17.730]of the transition obligations
[00:44:19.580]that can't be a cut and paste situation.
[00:44:23.110]This is one where...
[00:44:24.420]I include this because for those of us
[00:44:26.530]that do a lot of continuing ed,
[00:44:27.880]and I include myself in that, and we also,
[00:44:31.100]I think a lot of the folks listening probably also,
[00:44:33.810]like a kinda train-the-trainers model on the network.
[00:44:36.700]And so I think you take what you learn
[00:44:38.590]at conferences like this,
[00:44:39.650]and then you go back to your schools and train other people.
[00:44:43.410]And I think this is an example
[00:44:45.470]of the dangers of people that train folks
[00:44:49.730]not being clear enough by what they mean.
[00:44:51.840]So let me explain what I mean.
[00:44:53.130]This is a teenager who has a specific learning disability
[00:44:55.700]that's pretty significant.
[00:44:57.590]He's only reading at first-grade level
[00:44:59.370]when he enters ninth grade.
[00:45:01.610]The district did not use a transition assessment
[00:45:05.220]or anything like that,
[00:45:06.340]but they had a system kinda like SRS
[00:45:08.590]where there were boxes to check, where you say,
[00:45:10.820]"Does the child's behavior interfere with his learning?"
[00:45:13.210]Whatever, whatever.
[00:45:14.330]They check the box on the IEP saying
[00:45:16.910]that assessments were completed
[00:45:18.380]even though they didn't do it,
[00:45:19.510]and everybody agrees that they didn't do it,
[00:45:21.210]but whoever was doing the IEP just checked that box.
[00:45:24.870]The IEP also included form goals
[00:45:27.400]that they had cut and pasted from other IEP.
[00:45:32.290]And those goals included graduating high school on time
[00:45:37.440]and attending a post-secondary program.
[00:45:41.550]Now if you're a ninth grader
[00:45:42.730]who's reading at the first-grade level,
[00:45:44.740]it's gonna take some, it's a big lift to say
[00:45:48.410]in four years you'll be reading at grade level,
[00:45:50.540]and you'll be off to college.
[00:45:53.250]When the case manager was confronted about why she did that,
[00:45:56.810]the case manager said, "No, no, I went to a conference,
[00:45:59.360]and the Department of Ed person that spoke at the conference
[00:46:03.410]told us that we should expect all students
[00:46:05.500]to be reading at grade level by the time they graduated,
[00:46:07.740]so I thought I was supposed to do that
[00:46:08.980]for every single IEP."
[00:46:11.180]This is why I makes such a big deal
[00:46:12.760]about it can't be cookie cutter, can't be cookie cutter,
[00:46:15.300]can't be cookie cutter,
[00:46:16.350]because people hear it like bits and pieces, right?
[00:46:19.200]So hear me say, you should not mark
[00:46:21.797]"will be reading at grade level"
[00:46:23.110]if that's not actually goal, right?
[00:46:24.790]And the 11th Circuit said,
[00:46:26.747]"This was obviously not in compliance with the IDEA.
[00:46:30.190]We don't care what the person
[00:46:31.620]from your Department of Ed said.
[00:46:33.930]You can't just build this IEP to be a form
[00:46:37.880]that has nothing to do with the reality of this child.
[00:46:41.540]We further agree that the district court,
[00:46:43.270]that this lack of individualized planning and programming
[00:46:45.910]for their evaluation deprived them of a FAPE.
[00:46:49.520]For example, the vague language used
[00:46:52.200]to describe the student's post-secondary goal,
[00:46:54.580]'he'll be prepared to participate
[00:46:56.110]in post-secondary education,' it didn't match the fact
[00:46:59.660]that this kid could not read on grade level
[00:47:02.220]and that his diploma track was not...
[00:47:05.510]The reality was that he probably would not be reading
[00:47:08.410]at grade level when he graduated."
[00:47:10.180]So this is just another example of don't build these IEPs
[00:47:13.680]as like a cookie cutter form.
[00:47:17.130]This case, I just love this case so much
[00:47:21.310]because I think it really brings to the fore
[00:47:23.240]some of the real-life tensions and emotions
[00:47:26.630]that go with planning the future life
[00:47:30.500]for a student who has a autism spectrum disorder.
[00:47:33.870]So this girl is 17 years old.
[00:47:35.860]She has co-occurrence of these two disabilities:
[00:47:38.960]autism spectrum disorder and ADHD.
[00:47:42.250]The school district began transition services
[00:47:44.290]after ninth grade,
[00:47:45.123]which was appropriate under the laws in Texas,
[00:47:48.000]so, so far so good.
[00:47:50.660]When they interviewed the student,
[00:47:53.440]what the student really wanted was to be a cop.
[00:47:56.740]A career in law enforcement
[00:47:58.260]was the student's lifelong dream.
[00:48:00.720]And this goes back to my story about Eli.
[00:48:03.300]The parents were like, "Here's the deal, school.
[00:48:06.440]Writing an IEP for this kid to become a cop
[00:48:09.670]is functionally a denial of FAPE
[00:48:11.730]because children with autism do not grow up
[00:48:13.940]to be police officers."
[00:48:15.530]Now I hear a lot of grief from the parents in this argument.
[00:48:20.000]I think they are, and it is perfectly,
[00:48:23.140]I mean, it's wildly appropriate to grieve the hopes
[00:48:27.980]and dreams that you had for a child
[00:48:30.190]might be different once you are told
[00:48:32.830]that your child has some disabling condition.
[00:48:36.230]And so I think these parents are mourning the fact
[00:48:39.703]that their child, they believe,
[00:48:41.580]does not have the ability to follow his career path.
[00:48:45.840]But also, do you hear the categorical statement, right?
[00:48:48.910]If a school had said, "No, we won't write a transition plan
[00:48:52.370]for this kid to be a cop,"
[00:48:53.830]that would be a categorical denial of FAPE
[00:48:56.040]because you can't say,
[00:48:57.977]"Students with autism don't become police officers."
[00:49:01.020]And what this case says is parents have the same rules.
[00:49:04.660]Parents also cannot limit the teen in this categorical way.
[00:49:08.940]Now this is a great example of what a school does
[00:49:12.550]when a student with a disability may have career goals
[00:49:15.620]that aren't necessarily consistent
[00:49:17.910]with what you think the student's ultimate outcome might be.
[00:49:22.256]So the transition plan was individualized,
[00:49:24.590]it did honor the student's desire to be a cop,
[00:49:28.140]but then it also included some more basic goals
[00:49:30.930]including going to work part-time during school
[00:49:34.130]so that the student could learn the responsibilities
[00:49:36.680]of going to a job and being on time
[00:49:38.530]and interacting interpersonally.
[00:49:40.630]It also talked about attending a trade school
[00:49:42.680]that might prepare the child possibly for law enforcement
[00:49:45.240]or possibly for something else.
[00:49:47.250]They also did training with the kid
[00:49:48.630]about how you would get up in the morning
[00:49:49.990]and get ready for work and get dressed
[00:49:51.630]and pack a lunch and all that stuff.
[00:49:53.840]So you can see that while all of those things
[00:49:56.850]would support the child's desire to be a cop,
[00:49:59.360]they also support the child in other things
[00:50:01.693]that the child might end up doing when he or she is done
[00:50:04.840]or when he's done with high school.
[00:50:06.830]The court found no denial of FAPE.
[00:50:09.530]And I like this quote, and it's something that I think about
[00:50:12.630]when we have kiddos that have big dreams and goals
[00:50:15.260]that we're not entirely sure are going to work out,
[00:50:18.940]but I just don't wanna squish a kid's dreams.
[00:50:22.120]So the court said, "While his goals
[00:50:23.620]of being a police officer might be improbable,
[00:50:26.360]the plan honored those goals
[00:50:28.490]while still developing basic life skills
[00:50:31.000]that would be necessary for any path
[00:50:33.910]that the child followed in post-secondary life."
[00:50:36.360]So if a parent says, "Everybody knows that my child
[00:50:40.160]with autism cannot be a neurosurgeon,"
[00:50:43.850]that may be true, I don't know,
[00:50:45.960]but I think we honor the child's goals
[00:50:49.270]while also filling in the other sub-goals or the sub-skills
[00:50:53.640]that could be necessary for any walk of life.
[00:51:04.630]All right, next thing that I wanna visit about
[00:51:06.360]is the sufficiency and goal of goals and services in a IEP.
[00:51:11.300]And this Montana case I love
[00:51:13.260]because it's a no good deed goes unpunished kind of case.
[00:51:17.780]The student was over 18.
[00:51:20.550]Student had both autism and an emotional disturbance.
[00:51:23.070]Again, that co-occurrence that we talked about last session.
[00:51:26.640]But he just basically was done with high school.
[00:51:29.390]He did not want (chuckles),
[00:51:30.710]he was like, "I'm out, I'm done.
[00:51:32.460]I wanna decline all services.
[00:51:34.150]I wanna graduate. I want out."
[00:51:36.620]Kid had also moved out of his mom and dad's house
[00:51:39.230]and was living with an adult caregiver
[00:51:41.240]who, if you read between the lines,
[00:51:42.930]I think there's also kind of a romantic thing going on
[00:51:45.550]between the student and the caregiver.
[00:51:50.150]So he graduates. He insists on graduating.
[00:51:53.180]Later he sues the school saying,
[00:51:54.887]"How dare you let me graduate,"
[00:51:57.250]and, "You did not develop sufficient transition plan for me.
[00:52:00.340]I wasn't ready for life after I graduated from high school."
[00:52:03.980]Look at everything the district did here.
[00:52:06.250]I love this case because when someone says,
[00:52:09.787]"What kind of transition assessments do we have to do?"
[00:52:12.560]I can't tell you the minimum, but I can tell you,
[00:52:15.260]you look really good as a school when you can rattle off
[00:52:18.640]all of this stuff that you've done for a student
[00:52:21.290]to try to figure out what the student's transition needs
[00:52:25.240]and what their career interests might be.
[00:52:27.890]So they had done all this stuff,
[00:52:29.450]able to put all of this in front of the court.
[00:52:33.830]The kid, while he...
[00:52:35.330]Well, I guess I shouldn't say kid because he's 18.
[00:52:37.070]While he was a student, he would not actively engage
[00:52:40.070]in any of this stuff 'cause he wanted to be done, right?
[00:52:42.740]He refused to engage in goal setting with the IEP team.
[00:52:47.670]He refused unpreferred tasks.
[00:52:50.560]He wouldn't work on things that he didn't want to do.
[00:52:53.840]They worked with him repeatedly
[00:52:55.370]to try to talk about post-secondary goals.
[00:52:58.150]He flatly refused to even discuss it.
[00:53:01.000]And so the goals in the IEP as a result were kind of crummy.
[00:53:05.500]They said the student will determine
[00:53:07.730]what educational program will be right for him
[00:53:09.640]within three months of graduation, which I don't love.
[00:53:12.960]The school ends up winning this case,
[00:53:15.630]but it's not because this is a well-written goal.
[00:53:17.500]It's because they had done everything in their power
[00:53:19.890]to try to get the data necessary to write a better goal,
[00:53:23.027]and so they were left with this.
[00:53:25.470]They said the student's adult placement
[00:53:27.080]will help set up his appointment within three months,
[00:53:28.830]so they were trying to loop in this adult caregiver
[00:53:31.890]to have some responsibility to assist the child
[00:53:34.630]after he graduated, or the student.
[00:53:37.073]And it said the student would continue
[00:53:38.310]to work with family outreach,
[00:53:39.610]which they gave him all those contact informations,
[00:53:42.350]continue to develop skills necessary for life beyond school.
[00:53:45.250]These are not awesome goals, but they were saved by the fact
[00:53:48.970]that they had done so much to try to assist the student
[00:53:52.300]and his categorical refusal to engage
[00:53:54.380]in the process was the salvation.
[00:53:58.420]District court said the school district
[00:54:00.380]did conduct age-appropriate assessments.
[00:54:02.800]They did develop post-secondary goals,
[00:54:05.870]doing the best they could with that data.
[00:54:08.560]They provide a panoply of transition services.
[00:54:11.650]The student just flatly refused to engage.
[00:54:14.110]School district wins.
[00:54:17.090]I love this case.
[00:54:18.600]I think this is one
[00:54:19.433]of my favorite transition cases of all time.
[00:54:22.470]And it has sort of the interesting,
[00:54:25.370]what I view as a interesting element
[00:54:28.770]that some individuals with autism spectrum disorder have,
[00:54:31.830]which is that zoom focus, right?
[00:54:33.740]Which can be such a...
[00:54:35.720]I talk to individuals on the spectrum who say that
[00:54:38.410]that's something that neurotypicals just don't understand,
[00:54:41.310]and that they view that as an advantage over neurotypicals,
[00:54:43.780]that individuals with autism can really focus in
[00:54:47.790]and hone in on specific subject matter.
[00:54:50.920]So this student's zoom focus was on baking.
[00:54:54.370]She had watched "The British Baking Show"
[00:54:56.320]on Food Network and all this stuff.
[00:54:59.860]She has the great advantage over a lot of our kiddos
[00:55:03.190]in that she knew exactly what she wanted to do.
[00:55:06.410]She wants to be a baker. She wants to be a pastry chef.
[00:55:11.618]Her goal eventually is to be a star on Food Network,
[00:55:14.780]which I would hope and dream would come true for her.
[00:55:18.800]So she's graduated high school,
[00:55:21.840]but it's not yet time for her in the school's opinion.
[00:55:25.980]She's not mastered her goals.
[00:55:27.900]So she's like in a post-high school,
[00:55:29.430]is like in a 18 to 21 year old program.
[00:55:32.520]And the program is sort of designed
[00:55:36.620]to try to give her the support towards a career
[00:55:40.050]in culinary arts.
[00:55:41.700]She worked at the school cafeteria where she helped serve.
[00:55:45.820]She also had to wipe down tables and wash trays and stuff.
[00:55:49.700]She also had a job at the hospital,
[00:55:51.690]where she worked in a hospital cafeteria in town.
[00:55:54.750]Student did not like that
[00:55:55.980]because a lot of it was putting cling wrap
[00:55:58.060]on the fruit cups and delivering meals.
[00:56:02.370]But she's like, "I don't wanna do that stuff.
[00:56:04.200]I wanna bake."
[00:56:06.070]Additionally, the school allowed her...
[00:56:08.670]I think it was quarterly.
[00:56:09.770]They would assist her with a bake sale,
[00:56:12.120]that she would go and take orders from people
[00:56:14.190]for like her amazing brownies or cookies or whatever.
[00:56:18.180]Then, which is this is just awesome educational programming,
[00:56:21.340]they would sit down with her with the base recipe
[00:56:23.310]and then practice the skill
[00:56:24.750]of multiplying all the fractions out.
[00:56:27.810]She'd go to the store and buy the ingredients.
[00:56:29.940]She'd use the home ec room. Sorry, FCCLA room.
[00:56:32.940]My mom was a home ec teacher,
[00:56:34.040]so it's always still home ec to me.
[00:56:36.210]But she'd used the family and consumer science room
[00:56:38.870]to do the baking.
[00:56:39.703]So that's kind of a cool element of this program
[00:56:42.670]that they put together for her,
[00:56:44.600]but she was like, "That ain't enough.
[00:56:46.520]Baking quarterly is not enough,
[00:56:47.960]and I hate this job in the school cafeteria,
[00:56:50.217]and the hospital gig is not getting it done for me."
[00:56:53.380]She files due process,
[00:56:54.800]saying that this was an inappropriate transition program.
[00:56:58.350]And what she sued for is for the school to pay
[00:57:02.070]for her to attend culinary school.
[00:57:04.200]Now I don't know what culinary school costs.
[00:57:07.090]I do know that when I watch like "Chopped"
[00:57:09.860]or "Guy's Grocery Games" or all that stuff on Food Network,
[00:57:12.650]I know the people that win like 20 grand always say
[00:57:15.190]they're gonna pay off their culinary school student loans.
[00:57:18.560]So I don't think culinary school is super cheap,
[00:57:21.450]but that's not really the point.
[00:57:22.920]The question here is this:
[00:57:24.950]is a school obligated to only honor
[00:57:29.300]the student's very focused desire,
[00:57:33.080]or is the school also entitled and obligated
[00:57:36.450]to provide skills and learning opportunities
[00:57:40.660]that involve skills a student needs
[00:57:42.870]in addition to culinary school, right?
[00:57:45.180]Because the school said,
[00:57:46.127]"You may not not like working in the hospital cafeteria,
[00:57:49.750]but you need to practice your interpersonal skills
[00:57:52.230]because you can be abrupt and difficult to work with.
[00:57:54.980]So you need to practice working with people
[00:57:56.950]that you don't particularly care to work with.
[00:57:59.060]And nobody breaks into the business
[00:58:02.180]of culinary arts being the lead pastry chef, right?
[00:58:06.430]So you need to learn how to do dishes and do prep
[00:58:09.760]and put cling wrap on things and do that monotonous stuff
[00:58:13.380]because that's gonna be the stuff you have to do
[00:58:15.020]as a baseline before you can move on."
[00:58:17.320]So that's the fight.
[00:58:18.230]Does she get culinary school,
[00:58:19.680]or does she have to waste her time in...
[00:58:23.380]Oh, good question.
[00:58:24.410]I'm gonna answer this text question here
[00:58:26.490]as soon as I finish this case.
[00:58:29.210]The student says this doesn't give her
[00:58:31.300]the equipment she needs to learn.
[00:58:32.610]She says she's not learning how to use the emulsion blender
[00:58:35.707]and the what do I wanna say?
[00:58:38.490]You know, industrial oven and all that stuff.
[00:58:40.670]And the school says this is appropriate.
[00:58:42.480]She needs to work on these other skills
[00:58:44.640]in addition to just learning how to bake.
[00:58:47.520]And the school said the IDEA does not require
[00:58:49.843]that transition services include vocational training
[00:58:52.510]in cooking and baking.
[00:58:54.140]Hearing officer said school wins.
[00:58:56.860]The student is not entitled
[00:58:58.210]to an educational program that maximizes her potential
[00:59:01.230]and that allows her to go the farthest that she can
[00:59:04.270]in her chosen career as fast as she can.
[00:59:06.990]Instead, the hearing officer says the student is entitled
[00:59:09.480]to a program that offers her meaningful education benefit.
[00:59:13.420]Here you can tell from the stuff I've been talking about
[00:59:16.130]where the hearing officer found
[00:59:17.640]meaningful education benefit.
[00:59:19.840]He said working on these other skills
[00:59:22.800]is part of what she needs to learn
[00:59:25.520]before she launches off into the world.
[00:59:28.060]Although she's not very often afforded the opportunity
[00:59:31.040]to cook and bake at these job sites,
[00:59:33.470]they did provide her with what she needed
[00:59:37.180]even if it wasn't what she wanted.
[00:59:39.520]The law does not require Nashoba
[00:59:41.480]to provide an ideal experience
[00:59:43.500]with expert instruction and opportunity to cook.
[00:59:46.870]Hearing officer found these transition services sufficient
[00:59:49.400]under Endrew F.
[00:59:50.860]Family did appeal this.
[00:59:52.810]There was a state-level decision
[00:59:55.770]that did order the school to pay for culinary school,
[00:59:58.410]and then the school appealed that,
[01:00:00.210]and the original decision was ultimately enforced.
[01:00:04.700]So although if you go and look this case up,
[01:00:06.610]you'll see that there's some procedural history,
[01:00:09.070]this is how the case ultimately turned out
[01:00:11.850]even though it got fought about later.
[01:00:17.050]This one is kind of interesting.
[01:00:18.660]And I included this for the...
[01:00:21.020]Oh, wait, I wanted answer this question first.
[01:00:22.687]"Quick question, so should our paras be paid
[01:00:25.080]with special ed money to be working with students
[01:00:26.830]who are not verified special ed
[01:00:28.260]even though we're a Title 1 school,
[01:00:30.050]or does the same apply to them with Part B of the IDEA Act?"
[01:00:33.470]The question about that is whether or not the students
[01:00:37.240]that the paras are working on, how do I say this?
[01:00:39.900]If a para's in a gen ed classroom
[01:00:41.970]and they are there primarily to support a student
[01:00:44.670]with a disability but other students get the benefit
[01:00:48.610]of the para quick answering a question
[01:00:50.630]or picking up the, whatever, whatever,
[01:00:52.840]that's incidental benefit,
[01:00:54.080]and that is a permitted use of your para
[01:00:57.420]even if he or she is being paid with 100% IDEA money.
[01:01:02.140]The incidental benefit stuff
[01:01:03.500]is sort of a deep dive analysis.
[01:01:05.790]There's good stuff on the Technical Assistance page
[01:01:09.290]of the NDEs special ed website, so I would direct you there.
[01:01:14.300]But the short quick answer
[01:01:15.880]is the para does not have to stand in the classroom
[01:01:18.700]and say, "Oh, I'm sorry, Johnny.
[01:01:19.980]I know you need your shoes tied,
[01:01:21.480]but I'm only here to help this kindergartener with autism."
[01:01:25.410]You can have incidental benefit
[01:01:26.800]of the para being able to assist other kiddos,
[01:01:31.070]but his or her primary focus should be on the support
[01:01:34.830]and service of the students with disabilities.
[01:01:36.580]So hopefully that gets your question answered.
[01:01:41.410]Okay, this Norwalk case,
[01:01:45.330]and then I'm gonna pause.
[01:01:47.040]We were supposed to leave like 10 minutes for questions.
[01:01:49.700]So I don't think you guys are storing up your questions
[01:01:52.640]since I've made such a big deal about asking as we go.
[01:01:56.140]So my plan is probably to just kinda keep talking
[01:01:58.880]until we're supposed to be done at 11:40,
[01:02:02.230]but I'm gonna sort of slowly slow down
[01:02:06.280]and give you a chance to ask questions.
[01:02:09.207]"Question, when writing transition activities,
[01:02:11.390]I've heard the school districts should not..."
[01:02:13.500]Oh, my goodness.
[01:02:14.560]Thank you for asking this question, Sandra,
[01:02:16.470]'cause you are, I just, yes.
[01:02:20.612]Let me get the question out, and then I'll answer it.
[01:02:22.547]"I've heard that the school should not list the parents,
[01:02:25.120]family, guardian as a responsible person."
[01:02:27.530]Correct, that's right. Let me take one step back.
[01:02:33.440]And I want everybody to hear what I'm saying.
[01:02:36.210]All the time we talk about,
[01:02:38.040]when we do these kinds of trainings,
[01:02:39.700]we talk about the IEP as a contract
[01:02:42.530]between the school and the family.
[01:02:44.820]And I don't think that's really the way
[01:02:46.990]we should be thinking about it
[01:02:48.490]because a contract has mutual obligations, right?
[01:02:52.050]If I offer to sell you my house,
[01:02:54.420]I don't have to give you my house
[01:02:55.630]unless you show up at the closing with the money
[01:02:57.660]that you promised to pay me.
[01:02:59.770]An IEP is not like that.
[01:03:01.650]In an IEP, it is a contract
[01:03:03.490]in terms of it's a legal document,
[01:03:05.220]and it's a set of promises that are legally enforceable,
[01:03:08.290]but the school does not get to impose obligations
[01:03:10.910]on a family under the IDEA.
[01:03:13.450]The IDEA does not say the student
[01:03:15.750]and the family must agree with the school
[01:03:18.420]for what each side is gonna do
[01:03:20.320]and not what the law says.
[01:03:21.630]The law says the school owes the kid a free
[01:03:24.630]and appropriate public education,
[01:03:26.650]and that is regardless of what happens
[01:03:28.890]on the parent side back into the school.
[01:03:31.170]Now I think it's so much better for the school
[01:03:33.000]and just for the world, for the universe,
[01:03:35.700]if the parents do their part, and the school does its part,
[01:03:38.850]and we're all working together,
[01:03:39.960]and everybody's like throwing in a 100% to support the kid.
[01:03:43.150]That's the best, but if a parent doesn't do their thing,
[01:03:46.540]do you know who's responsible?
[01:03:48.410]We are. We the school are because we made the promise.
[01:03:52.130]So the reason I don't like writing transition plans
[01:03:54.720]to say things like, "Parents will take..."
[01:03:56.620]I just saw one for a student
[01:03:58.160]with visual impairment that said,
[01:03:59.907]"Parents will take the student to,"
[01:04:03.190]whatever it is, mobility and orientation training,
[01:04:05.320]like the training to walk with the cane.
[01:04:09.640]What happens when the parents don't do it?
[01:04:12.060]The parents then could sue the school
[01:04:14.870]for the parents' failure to do the thing
[01:04:16.860]that the school promised the parents would.
[01:04:18.290]Do you see what I'm saying?
[01:04:20.510]So don't make any promises
[01:04:22.420]that anybody's gonna perform a service
[01:04:24.740]unless that person is somebody that the school can fire
[01:04:27.640]if they don't do what they're supposed to do.
[01:04:30.640]As a related note,
[01:04:32.030]and this is such an issue for students with autism,
[01:04:34.640]I know that peer mentors, like, the research shows
[01:04:37.750]that peer mentors are good for students with autism.
[01:04:40.300]Circle of Friends is an awesome program.
[01:04:42.920]But I also would not write anything in an IEP
[01:04:45.880]that puts a responsibility on a peer or another student.
[01:04:49.100]So it can't be that Karen will work with her peer mentor
[01:04:51.720]to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
[01:04:53.340]because if the peer mentor flakes, the school's on the hook.
[01:04:56.630]Now this doesn't mean
[01:04:57.900]that the family's part in getting the student
[01:05:01.120]with community activities is never documented in the IEP.
[01:05:04.630]So, for example, all the time I see,
[01:05:07.960]Karen enjoys participating
[01:05:09.330]in Special Olympics in the summertime,
[01:05:11.290]and the family will continue to take Karen
[01:05:13.090]to Special Olympics.
[01:05:14.280]That's great, and I think we should honor that
[01:05:16.410]and document that and praise the family for that
[01:05:18.400]and celebrate that, but that's not a service
[01:05:20.560]that we the school are providing, right?
[01:05:24.010]If we say, "Karen's extracurricular interests
[01:05:27.170]will be met by Special Olympics,"
[01:05:28.850]then we need to get Karen to Special Olympics.
[01:05:31.530]If we say this is something that family is interested in,
[01:05:33.700]I would not write that as a service.
[01:05:35.020]So, sorry, that's a little hobby horse I have.
[01:05:40.520]Whoever is responsible for providing the service in the IEP,
[01:05:44.290]the school's in trouble if that service isn't provided,
[01:05:47.370]and we can't say it's Mom and Dad's fault
[01:05:49.430]because they didn't do it,
[01:05:50.430]because we can't fire Mom and Dad.
[01:05:51.990]So that's why I don't think you should write,
[01:05:54.377]"Mom and Dad will provide XYZ transition services,"
[01:05:57.210]because that's not our legal obligation.
[01:06:01.590]Okay, thank you. I kinda got passionate about that.
[01:06:04.700]We're supposed to be done at 11:40, yes?
[01:06:07.340]Will someone confirm that for me
[01:06:08.450]while I quick finish out this case?
[01:06:10.080]11:45.
[01:06:11.880]11:45, oh, good. Oh, good, good, good.
[01:06:13.700]I don't have to hurry as much as I thought.
[01:06:17.010]Okay, so this is a situation where...
[01:06:19.390]And we've these exact cases in Nebraska.
[01:06:22.950]So this is really relevant to the folks
[01:06:27.250]that are on this webinar.
[01:06:29.300]This is a student that graduated, turned 21.
[01:06:33.560]I think he's kind of one of the school's success stories.
[01:06:36.070]I think the special ed staff like high five each other
[01:06:38.720]when they're talking about this kiddo.
[01:06:41.070]He had his own landscaping business
[01:06:43.330]where not only did he mow lawns,
[01:06:44.810]but he like designed flower beds and planted plants.
[01:06:48.170]He also worked at a local marina
[01:06:50.560]where he was an assistant mechanic.
[01:06:52.140]And the marina owner was like, "He's a really good salesman.
[01:06:55.420]He sells stuff for us all the time."
[01:06:57.450]So, I mean, it's not like a, he's not a neurosurgeon,
[01:07:01.880]but he's patched together these gigs
[01:07:03.700]that are really he's good at
[01:07:05.580]and that he's successful at and likes.
[01:07:07.950]Now Mom sues because she says this kid
[01:07:11.840]should be able to do more.
[01:07:14.957]"Things that other people take for granted
[01:07:16.840]that are easy for them, he can't do,
[01:07:19.730]like he can't read a lease.
[01:07:21.510]I have to help him manage his finances.
[01:07:24.550]Balancing the checkbook is hard for him.
[01:07:26.520]He especially has trouble with reading business documents."
[01:07:30.790]She says this means the school
[01:07:32.670]did not give him adequate transition services.
[01:07:34.990]She sues, seeking an additional year of services,
[01:07:38.830]helping him become a better reader.
[01:07:41.830]The school says, "We did our best, and he's graduated.
[01:07:44.540]He's done."
[01:07:46.130]And here's what the State Department of Ed said.
[01:07:48.310]The district provided adequate services
[01:07:50.450]with multiple opportunities and multiple work sites,
[01:07:53.940]and as evidenced by the kid's success after high school,
[01:07:56.840]he has a variety of skills that he has mastered.
[01:08:00.700]It's not appropriate for Mom to say,
[01:08:03.007]"You should make it as if my kid
[01:08:05.100]does not have a disability.
[01:08:06.410]He's going to struggle with things
[01:08:07.950]that typical developers might not struggle with."
[01:08:11.090]And I'm not saying that the school shouldn't try
[01:08:13.810]to support a child in every single one of their needs,
[01:08:17.320]but parents don't get to sue for saying,
[01:08:20.257]"But my kid isn't exactly like everybody else,"
[01:08:23.090]because that's just not..
[01:08:24.070]No kid is like everybody else.
[01:08:26.100]And so the school districts did provide FAPE.
[01:08:30.070]There were some little implementation failures along the way
[01:08:32.450]that didn't cause any denial.
[01:08:34.510]Department of Ed supported the school.
[01:08:38.400]One thing, and I see just from the folks participating,
[01:08:42.120]we have such a wide variety
[01:08:44.400]of like rural versus urban in this state,
[01:08:47.560]and even rural versus rural resources are wildly different.
[01:08:53.230]And back in the day when the transition piece
[01:08:56.140]was first pertinent to the IDEA,
[01:08:58.270]Doug Bereuter, who was a congressperson for Nebraska,
[01:09:02.010]wrote a letter to OSERS basically saying,
[01:09:04.657]"Communities in my state don't have certain resources
[01:09:09.030]that they may have in Omaha or LA or Chicago.
[01:09:13.100]What does a school do
[01:09:14.080]if we don't have the resources available for transition?
[01:09:17.290]Or what if there's only one job shadowing opportunity?
[01:09:22.510]What if schools are fighting over limited resources
[01:09:26.260]and we can't get what we want
[01:09:28.380]because the larger town next to us,
[01:09:30.130]like Hershey's fighting then North Platte,
[01:09:32.570]sucking up all the resources.
[01:09:33.863]I mean, what do we do about that?"
[01:09:35.993]And OSERS basically said, "We don't care.
[01:09:38.950]It doesn't appear that the factors described
[01:09:40.830]in your constituents inquiry would be sufficient
[01:09:42.980]to relieve a public agency of its obligation to ensure
[01:09:46.320]that needed transition services are provided."
[01:09:48.600]So you don't get to say, "We're in," whatever,
[01:09:52.007]"Red Willow County, so we don't have buses here.
[01:09:54.990]So, sorry, kid, you don't get to learn
[01:09:57.010]how to navigate your transportation needs."
[01:10:01.090]We have to figure out,
[01:10:02.060]in light of the child's circumstances,
[01:10:04.060]what are the resources available?
[01:10:05.660]But we don't just get to throw up our hands and say,
[01:10:07.997]"We're rural, so we don't have to do this."
[01:10:11.090]Impossibility is not a defense.
[01:10:12.720]Now the wonderful news is that since 1993,
[01:10:16.890]we developed the entirety of the internet
[01:10:20.000]and digital resources and opportunities
[01:10:22.430]are way more available than they used to be.
[01:10:26.160]One thing I might say,
[01:10:27.190]and I just don't think I'm gonna get to the case,
[01:10:29.460]you might consider in rural Nebraska
[01:10:31.450]whether or not assisting a child through driver's ed
[01:10:34.330]and taking the test and getting their driver's license
[01:10:36.600]is an appropriate transition services.
[01:10:38.300]In some cases, it might be,
[01:10:39.310]in some cases, it might not be.
[01:10:41.610]But those are the examples where in a big city,
[01:10:43.330]you might say, "Learn how to use the bus or the subway."
[01:10:45.960]That's not really an option if you're in Hyannis.
[01:10:50.840]What if voc-rehab doesn't do its job
[01:10:52.730]or whatever the participating agency is fails
[01:10:55.080]to follow the plan?
[01:10:56.750]You are supposed to reconvene the IEP
[01:10:59.440]and try to figure out what you can do to support the child
[01:11:02.930]to make up for the fact that voc-rehab dropped the ball.
[01:11:05.470]So that has come up a couple of times,
[01:11:08.160]and that is a specifically addressed in the CFR.
[01:11:14.210]42, any other questions?
[01:11:17.890]If the kid won't do it,
[01:11:19.490]you're supposed to reconvene the IEP
[01:11:21.100]and talk about whether or not you can find a different way
[01:11:24.090]to do transition planning
[01:11:25.210]that would be more acceptable to the kid.
[01:11:27.070]Oh, (laughs) this is where I was gonna say
[01:11:30.030]the whole little contract thing that I did
[01:11:32.080]in response to the question
[01:11:33.290]about who's responsible for services.
[01:11:36.837]"The IEP is not a contract.
[01:11:38.850]You can't say that it's the kid's fault
[01:11:40.480]that the plan isn't working."
[01:11:42.960]If the student is consistently refusing
[01:11:45.380]to engage in transition activities,
[01:11:46.900]I think parents should be notified
[01:11:48.740]'cause we do wanna come at it from both sides
[01:11:51.310]and kinda support the kid
[01:11:52.760]in deciding to do those activities.
[01:11:55.280]I wouldn't promise to tell parents
[01:11:56.790]every single time the kid refuses
[01:11:58.260]'cause chances are you'll miss one or two,
[01:12:00.690]but I think we should involve home, absolutely.
[01:12:03.900]And if the current placement of services aren't working,
[01:12:06.610]I don't think we can say,
[01:12:07.517]"Well, we tried. The kid won't do it."
[01:12:08.970]I think we have to keep tweaking the plan
[01:12:11.390]until we get something that we think might be acceptable.
[01:12:14.570]Here's one thing,
[01:12:15.880]we kinda know the kids who have work refusals.
[01:12:19.510]We might include in the plan what we're gonna do on the days
[01:12:21.830]that the kid refuses to engage in those activities,
[01:12:24.640]like what are we going to do
[01:12:25.900]so that it's an educational problem
[01:12:27.600]not a, oh, my gosh, management problem.
[01:12:32.856]Yeah, I'm gonna skip this one
[01:12:33.940]'cause I wanna show you one other case that I just love,
[01:12:36.090]and it's a student with autism spectrum disorder
[01:12:37.900]so it's one of my favorite cases.
[01:12:40.000]It's this one.
[01:12:41.340]This is a student who has aged out. His cadre has graduated.
[01:12:46.030]He is still doing a 13th year of school,
[01:12:49.490]and he's got the zoom focus
[01:12:52.160]where he's really skilled at technology.
[01:12:55.690]For his 13th year,
[01:12:57.670]the IEP is set up that says they're gonna work
[01:13:00.340]on helping him improve his self-advocacy,
[01:13:03.920]and he was basically the tech support guy
[01:13:06.570]for his math teacher.
[01:13:07.920]Look at this.
[01:13:09.210]As part of his math teacher support, student aid,
[01:13:12.670]he hacks into the school server
[01:13:14.390]and changes everybody's grades,
[01:13:16.640]like downloads a bunch of financial information,
[01:13:19.160]does a bunch of malicious stuff.
[01:13:20.610]Because he's so good at technology,
[01:13:22.670]he can outsmart the math teacher
[01:13:24.410]and all of the other things that are put in place
[01:13:27.110]to protect the school's network.
[01:13:29.580]The school suspended him for 10 days
[01:13:31.110]and then told him he couldn't use
[01:13:32.410]the school's computer networks anymore.
[01:13:35.250]Parents sue, saying,
[01:13:36.867]"Hey, if he can't use the school's computer networks,
[01:13:39.330]he's not getting FAPE because technology is his jam.
[01:13:42.410]That's his whole transition plan, is to do technology.
[01:13:45.980]You can't just take away his computer access."
[01:13:48.080]The school's like, "But he hacked into our servers."
[01:13:50.670]Hearing officer says, "We don't care."
[01:13:52.810]A revocation of tech services was a change in placement.
[01:13:55.830]The school could not just unilaterally do this.
[01:13:58.510]Look at this.
[01:13:59.480]Hearing officer required the school
[01:14:01.780]to hire somebody as a para,
[01:14:04.020]and that para had to have technology skills
[01:14:06.640]that were better than the kid's,
[01:14:08.550]so we're talking like a super genius para,
[01:14:10.870]to monitor the kid while he used technology.
[01:14:14.010]Here's the point of this case.
[01:14:16.060]We need to honor the child's abilities and interests,
[01:14:19.730]and you cannot say,
[01:14:20.947]"And if you misuse it, we're going to punish you
[01:14:23.730]by taking away that support," right?
[01:14:26.000]We have to do what it takes to support the child
[01:14:29.860]in the transition services even if it's difficult.
[01:14:33.130]The difficulty doesn't excuse the need for the services.
[01:14:37.150]Okay, it is now 11:45 on the nose.
[01:14:40.750]Oh, last thing about this one,
[01:14:42.140]and this is something else to look for.
[01:14:43.870]If we say we're gonna work with the kid for self-advocacy,
[01:14:46.460]we better articulate what that means and have baselines
[01:14:50.310]and things that are measurable and that kind of stuff.
[01:14:52.110]And I do see this as a problem in IEP,
[01:14:54.990]is that I see especially for students on the spectrum.
[01:14:58.090]Okay, now it's 11:46.
[01:14:59.210]I've gone one minute over. Sorry about that.
[01:15:00.910]Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.
[01:15:02.840]I hope this was interesting information.
[01:15:05.340]Again, the rest of the slides are available
[01:15:07.740]on the platform for the conference,
[01:15:09.140]and they'll also remain up on our website.
[01:15:11.870]Thank you so much, Karen.
[01:15:13.310]That was just a huge amount of knowledge and just spot on.
[01:15:18.220]So thank you so much for your time.
[01:15:20.470]Everybody have a great lunch,
[01:15:21.920]and use the virtual schedule
[01:15:23.650]to log into other sessions this afternoon.
[01:15:26.090]And again, thanks so much, Karen. That was awesome.
[01:15:29.720]Thank you.
[01:15:30.800]Bye.

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Transitions, IDEA and Autism

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