World Speaks Space Series - Australia
Cooperation between different actors is essential for the successful exploration and use of outer space. From the practicing lawyer’s perspective, this cooperation can mean that it becomes necessary to understand different perspectives on the same sets of legal rules. Conversing about space law for the purpose of enhancing our understanding of space law and of each other’s approaches to space law is therefore an essential aspect of international space cooperation. With the American Society of International Law (ASIL) Space Law Interest Group and the American Branch of the International Law Association (ABILA), Nebraska Law is proud to present the “World Speaks Space Law Series” developed by Matthew Schaefer (Nebraska Law, ASIL, ABILA), Elsbeth Magilton (Nebraska Law, ASIL), and Stefan Kirchner (ASIL). The Australia and New Zealand session features Melissa De Zwart, Dean at the University of Adelaide School of Law, Dale Stephens, Professor at the University of Adelaide School of Law and Director of the Adelaide Military Law Program, Joel Lisk, Attorney at Cowell Clarke and PhD candidate in space law, and Val Sim, Director of Legal Services at the New Zealand Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment.
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[00:00:14.670]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Alright, we are at 6pm central time many different times across the world, with all of our guests here and we're so glad to have everyone here.
[00:00:24.090]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): My name is ellsbury Middleton I am the co Chair of the American society of international law, space law interest group.
[00:00:30.810]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): i'm joined today by my co chair Stephen culture and our Vice chair matt schaefer and I want to extend my Thank you to them for helping us put together these sessions.
[00:00:40.230]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): i'm honored to be moderating tonight, but certainly, this is a team effort to bring this series to all of you this program also has two other partners and with us.
[00:00:51.390]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Through that partnership is a below the American branch of the International Association, as well as the University of nebraska space cyber and telecommunications law Program.
[00:01:00.960]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Our vice chair matt schaefer is a proud member of a Viola and him and I are colleagues, also at the space cyber and telecom program in nebraska where he is the founding director of the Program.
[00:01:12.270]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And I joined him about eight years ago as the Executive Director of that program, so we are all excited to be here and put together this series, and the idea behind the world speak space series.
[00:01:23.880]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): is to give updates and perspectives on the space sector and the policy and legislation.
[00:01:29.250]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): happening around the world that guides it from different world region so i'm really excited tonight to be starting with some friends and colleagues from Australia and New Zealand.
[00:01:38.220]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): You might notice that we are actually missing one of our panelists we're working on some technical issues, hopefully she'll be able to join us shortly.
[00:01:45.120]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): To keen to bring us more of the New Zealand perspective, but I know that we can go ahead and still have an excellent session with everyone that we have here, so I ask our panelists to turn on their cameras and we can go ahead and get started.
[00:02:00.210]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): So kind of our order of operations tonight is to first start with some really brief introductions of who we have here with us where they're from.
[00:02:08.820]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And then from there we're going to go to about two to five minutes apiece to give us updates on their areas of work and research and to provide those updates from the world region that we're talking about tonight and Australia.
[00:02:19.830]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And then we'll turn to some questions I have for the panelists questions I have for each other, and of course we want to hear from you in the Q amp a box so with that I will turn it over to our panelists for their introductions.
[00:02:31.860]Melissa de Zwart: A good morning from Australia and good evening to all of you in the United States, my name is Professor Melissa does what I am the dean of the Adelaide law school.
[00:02:40.620]Melissa de Zwart: And i'm also the deputy chair of the space industry association of Australia and i'm also a member of the South, Australian space Council, which sounds a little bit more star trek than it actually is in real life.
[00:02:57.510]Dale Stephens: Thanks Melissa 19 style Stevens i'm a professor of Florida Atlantic university.
[00:03:02.040]Dale Stephens: i'm the director of the Adelaide research unit on military law and ethics, which looks at military issues and ethical issues across all spectrums including space.
[00:03:11.670]Dale Stephens: My background is that I spent 23 years as a navy Officer of navy legal officer dealing mostly with maritime issues, naturally.
[00:03:21.300]Dale Stephens: But, as I was leaving it was clear that space issues were starting to become prominent in Australian defence force legal thinking which certainly spurred my interest in this area that's me.
[00:03:34.890]Joel Lisk: Thanks so.
[00:03:35.760]Joel Lisk: Good everyone, my name is Joe.
[00:03:37.860]Joel Lisk: i'm both the commercial lawyer, based in Adelaide working on generally regulatory issues for many companies around just general corporate compliance.
[00:03:47.040]Joel Lisk: But more interestingly, for this context so i'm also a PhD student at the University of Adelaide and my focus is on.
[00:03:53.490]Joel Lisk: Essentially, comparative commercial legal frameworks and how nations regulate the activities of private actors and also a director of the newly established space law Council of Australia and New Zealand and we aim to kind of promote space law and policy issues.
[00:04:07.110]Val Sim : In our hands.
[00:04:11.820]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you Joel high Valley.
[00:04:13.020]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): see that you've joined us.
[00:04:18.690]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): We can't hear you i'm not sure if you can hear us.
[00:04:28.680]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): I will go ahead and mute.
[00:04:30.210]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And shoot her a message so um well they're working out technical on their side, why don't we go ahead and start with the two to five minutes of updates and Melissa why don't we start with you.
[00:04:42.780]Melissa de Zwart: Sure thanks Elspeth there has been so much happening in Australia it's very difficult to confine it to the two to five minute time allocated to me, so I will.
[00:04:52.380]Melissa de Zwart: try not to talk too fast, as an Australian because I know that that can also become complicated certainly things have been happening during coven and we just.
[00:05:02.490]Melissa de Zwart: Had the commencement of the new head of the Australian Space Agency in Rico Palermo yesterday, who is an Australian who's returning to us from virgin galactic that would be very interesting to see what direction the Space Agency takes and.
[00:05:16.680]Melissa de Zwart: The expertise of someone who has significant expertise in commercial space.
[00:05:21.840]Melissa de Zwart: When I was thinking about the key issues that I wanted to flag with you this morning, I think that the one that most people will be interested in.
[00:05:29.310]Melissa de Zwart: Is australia's engagement in ARTEMIS project which poses some interesting questions, notably, of course, Australia, is one of 18.
[00:05:40.200]Melissa de Zwart: Members to the moon agreement and so right from the prior to there being an announcement about Australia participation anonymous the question was how could we do so, given that we are members of the moon agreement nevertheless.
[00:05:56.160]Melissa de Zwart: There is a belief and an articulation on behalf of the Agency and the Australian Government, and certainly the way in which ARTEMIS is is expressed to apply, that is.
[00:06:07.560]Melissa de Zwart: What we would call in Australia abroad church and there's plenty of space for people to play in a way that that that that is appropriate to their regime.
[00:06:15.990]Melissa de Zwart: So Australia had already announced in light 29 to 150 million dollar moon to Mars program and that had three elements which were essentially a demonstrator and pilot project which looked at things like robotics and Ai.
[00:06:30.270]Melissa de Zwart: Working with NASA to leverage and engagement with their activities and also funding to support access by Australian companies to international supply chains, so this of course led on to the Australian Space Agency signing on to the optimist records in October of last year and.
[00:06:51.570]Melissa de Zwart: Now we have had the recent announcement of the fact that Australia was has already commenced the seven sisters project.
[00:07:01.620]Melissa de Zwart: This is a consortium based out of South Australia flying the south Australian flag, under the guidance of fleet space who's a small set developer and.
[00:07:11.790]Melissa de Zwart: This is a plan series of support activities, including launches first to Leo then to the moon, and then to Mars, and essentially it is.
[00:07:21.630]Melissa de Zwart: A technology that will be part of the moonshot program part of their inspire program and it provides support to the moon to Mars initiative to the optimist initiative.
[00:07:32.370]Melissa de Zwart: Through the deployment of sensors and communication so we're looking at things like detecting surface water.
[00:07:40.080]Melissa de Zwart: It will be able to be used for resource utilization but also for communication technology.
[00:07:46.470]Melissa de Zwart: Another development, which I think is worth flagging is the increased cooperation between.
[00:07:52.620]Melissa de Zwart: The strain Space Agency and jaxa the Japanese Space Agency, of course, warmer here in South Australia was very proud to be the landing site of higher booster to having been the crash landing site of higher booster one.
[00:08:08.130]Melissa de Zwart: Many years ago and that had been a mission by jaxa to the asteroid right you go apologies to any Japanese speakers for my poor pronunciation.
[00:08:19.410]Melissa de Zwart: But that was, I think both of symbolic, as well as a very practical arrangement, so we had very proudly.
[00:08:27.360]Melissa de Zwart: jaxa scientists and engineers undertaking to wake quarantine in Adelaide hotels, so that they could be part of the landing of high boost at the woman or a protected area in South Australia.
[00:08:39.960]Melissa de Zwart: And to undertake the analysis of the samples that had been obtained so certainly, you can see clear evidence of Australia wanting to partner globally.
[00:08:52.710]Melissa de Zwart: In terms of its commercial expertise with a strong emphasis on ground station communication and small set capability.
[00:09:02.310]Melissa de Zwart: The only other thing which I will flag which i'm sure Joe will also point to is a bit of a hotly contested issue in Australia about where we really sit in the global space market, are we really just small set.
[00:09:14.460]Melissa de Zwart: Ground station provider or will we actually be able to provide launch capability as well.
[00:09:20.550]Melissa de Zwart: The full spectrum of spacex activities which will be important to issues such as sovereign capability which i'm sure dial we'll touch on.
[00:09:28.230]Melissa de Zwart: So they're they're my sort of key points so much going on that's really only literally just scraping the surface and very happy to talk more about that.
[00:09:40.800]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you, Melissa vast and she joined us.
[00:09:43.590]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Before you were able to be here, we all.
[00:09:45.360]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): introduced ourselves very briefly, so if you could just introduce yourself and where you're from, and then we will turn it over to Dale for his two to five minutes of comments and updates.
[00:09:56.160]Val Sim : Right.
[00:09:57.330]Val Sim : Thank you, Al Smith and he said i'm vous some i'm a director of legal services in the Ministry of business, innovation and employment and New Zealand.
[00:10:07.260]Val Sim : The Ministry of business and innovation and employment, or sometimes laughingly called the Ministry of everything and part of the everything that the.
[00:10:15.900]Val Sim : ministry houses, is the New Zealand Space Agency, and I was lucky enough to be in on the development of the New Zealand Space Agency itself, and also the development.
[00:10:28.350]Val Sim : of new zealand's fist space floor that outer space and high altitude activity said 2017 and and through that it through my involvement in that project have continued to be.
[00:10:40.440]Val Sim : interested in the space week and continue to support the New Zealand Space Agency and in the performance of both the policy regular in regulatory functions and obviously with the complex legal questions that are asked so that's probably enough about me.
[00:10:56.280]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you and we'll be back in just a moment but let's hear from Dale.
[00:11:00.660]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And i'll turn it over to you.
[00:11:02.520]Dale Stephens: Thank you very much Elspeth so I i've been asked to talk about the military strategic focus from Australia and i'm guided really by two principal.
[00:11:13.290]Dale Stephens: documents that the deal with that, the first being the 2016 Defense White Paper and then last year, the 2020 Defense strategic updated force structure plan.
[00:11:25.290]Dale Stephens: The significance about those two documents is that in in in both of them, they identify traditional theatres of potential threat a land and sea, but they added two more.
[00:11:36.630]Dale Stephens: On one hand, cyber and information operations and I don't know whether they should be fused I think they're different but that that's what that's what they did, and secondly space space was identified as a particular theater of operations of strategic concern.
[00:11:50.910]Dale Stephens: Certainly, for Australia with that recognition was also a statement about.
[00:11:56.160]Dale Stephens: Concerns Australia heads strategically with the frying of norms and rules and legal structure for the governance of spice.
[00:12:04.320]Dale Stephens: Visa V emerging threats, and this was in the context of Gray area operations, this was identified specifically as being a an area of concern, whereby.
[00:12:15.330]Dale Stephens: Where where the lines were the lines that could be crossed at or shouldn't be crossed, and what were the responses and when another State got close to that line wherever that line was how might Australia react legitimately in response to that.
[00:12:34.080]Dale Stephens: One of the things that was identified in these in particularly the update was the fact that Australia relied heavily upon allies for space.
[00:12:44.250]Dale Stephens: services from a strategic perspective, most particularly the United States but also others, including countries such as Japan and.
[00:12:53.400]Dale Stephens: As Melissa alluded to it was identified in the 2020 strategic update that Australia needed to to develop its own independent space capability in order of.
[00:13:06.060]Dale Stephens: specifically for Defense but but, more generally, and the government announced a $7 billion program over the next 10 years to invest in that in that program and other space.
[00:13:18.960]Dale Stephens: Other space capability, one of the things that was identified in the strategic update was that space and we might get into this later I think one of your questions dealt dealt with this ellsworth was that.
[00:13:30.060]Dale Stephens: there's no there's no no there's no mention of a space for us anywhere in the 2020 update.
[00:13:36.420]Dale Stephens: But there was a recognition that space was a capability that all three services could deliver on, and when I say three services in Australia have army navy and air force.
[00:13:47.760]Dale Stephens: But it clearly air force is taking the lead in this and the Air Force has started talking about air and space capability and delivering effects in those particular environments, we might expand on that.
[00:14:02.850]Dale Stephens: later.
[00:14:04.980]Dale Stephens: In terms of what are these Gray area operations in terms of what are these lines that was identified in our strategic update, I think, as a matter of international law.
[00:14:15.390]Dale Stephens: There are familiar terms that that need to have application for space, so these Gray area operations start with what is a use of force and So what does it mean when another.
[00:14:27.120]Dale Stephens: Country dazzles your satellites or operates in close proximity to your satellites or blocks its functionality.
[00:14:34.680]Dale Stephens: or uses a directed energy weapon against that satellite or jams it or spoofs it or use the cyber manipulation, where we're in the line in international law.
[00:14:45.510]Dale Stephens: Does this become a use of force, contrary to Article to four and when might you respond.
[00:14:51.720]Dale Stephens: Similarly, when is when do you have an armed attack what is a grave use of force if those things are or are not force when might, you have a grave use of force, as identified by the International Court of Justice for right of self Defense.
[00:15:05.820]Dale Stephens: And then, if you have you cross the line to get into the in below and you are an international armed conflict, you need to states but.
[00:15:12.930]Dale Stephens: But who are those states, and as we, as many of us know when you look at space and you look at space assets, who who who owns the satellite.
[00:15:21.750]Dale Stephens: who's registered, who was a launching state who owns it what interest is to the states have and.
[00:15:28.620]Dale Stephens: Who in the world is the person that just attacked you if you've got all of these different States involved, which are.
[00:15:34.740]Dale Stephens: Questions that in the Gray area zone of operations malevolent States might exploit that Australia has identified and, finally, what sorts of military activities are allowed in space.
[00:15:47.940]Dale Stephens: we've got prohibitions under Article for.
[00:15:50.910]Dale Stephens: Particularly on the moon, but we're establishments fortifications and bases are prohibited but.
[00:15:57.420]Dale Stephens: What about a facility and what about I peacekeeping force on the moon or celestial body if we have mining activities going forward in our these areas that we need to explore in.
[00:16:07.800]Dale Stephens: My view is that we do, and I think these the the Australian strategic update identify those areas that we need to have focus on fortunately is a group of.
[00:16:16.620]Dale Stephens: Of inspired academics working on something called the warmer manual that aim to deliver the answers to these fairy questions we may talk about that.
[00:16:26.220]Dale Stephens: Later, but the point, the point about that that I do want to identify that Australia.
[00:16:31.170]Dale Stephens: I think focused on in implicitly in the Gray area operations analysis was that it matters greatly what States say and do.
[00:16:39.900]Dale Stephens: or don't do, and one of the things that we found we're finding in the in the warmer manual is that you can find academic views on just about anything you want.
[00:16:50.460]Dale Stephens: But really the answers lie and what States say and do or don't do, and I think, from a methodological perspective in identifying how to resolve these Gray area operations, as identified in the strategic update that needs to be the focus the end.
[00:17:08.070]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you Dale I appreciate that.
[00:17:10.410]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Val i'll turn it over to you for around five minutes on commercial and civil space Program.
[00:17:15.660]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): and updates from New Zealand.
[00:17:21.870]Val Sim : Thank you for that and and I have to say, like Melissa I find it a little bit daunting trying to.
[00:17:28.260]Val Sim : explain everything that was happening within the New Zealand space industry within.
[00:17:32.250]Val Sim : Five minutes, because actually there is quite a lot happening so I thought this will be a very quick overview and I touched briefly on fish what's happening in the.
[00:17:42.750]Val Sim : space industry and what what's emerging and secondly on some of the international collaborations that new zealand's involved in.
[00:17:50.400]Val Sim : And finally i'll talk, talk a little bit about the Space Agency and what its policy priorities there and I think just.
[00:17:59.160]Val Sim : As a starting point to make is that the New Zealand space industry really has developed in a very different way than the Australian space industry developed, because the space is Australian space industries started off.
[00:18:12.720]Val Sim : With the development of satellites, whereas the development of the New Zealand and Australia, has been very heavily focused on launch activities, rather than on.
[00:18:23.490]Val Sim : On satellites and and there's probably you know.
[00:18:28.320]Val Sim : fairly obvious reason for that and nature's New Zealand as a very attractive place to launch from because of his clear skies.
[00:18:36.240]Val Sim : it's geographical isolation and, more recently, people would say I think a flexible and enabling enabling regulatory regime.
[00:18:45.180]Val Sim : All of you, of course, will not about rocket lead rocket layer there's very much seen as the poster child for the New Zealand.
[00:18:52.440]Val Sim : space industry, and it has of course now carried out several successful launches by from its primary satin matte here in New Zealand.
[00:19:02.580]Val Sim : but also from its second launch site in wallops in California so i'm not really going to say much more about rocket lab except said, and it constantly innovate.
[00:19:14.580]Val Sim : And, and that for us is a Space Agency is extremely exciting but it's also poses some regulatory challenges Just to give you an indication of the of the innovations that.
[00:19:25.500]Val Sim : rocket blend has undertaken since that started launching its first one was the development of a kick stage, which was enabled more economical, efficient and.
[00:19:37.890]Val Sim : carriage of satellites into orbit and also at Mr managed orbital debris.
[00:19:44.580]Val Sim : That gave us some challenges about hey is this thing out of the launch vehicles at a payload what is that and so that that was an interesting exercise to work through.
[00:19:55.050]Val Sim : Subsequently it's developed something called the photon and which is a satellite bass and to watch its customers can and put their own equipment so customized satellite past.
[00:20:06.810]Val Sim : and its third and most recent innovation is that it's looking at reusable rockets and has carried out and now some work on recovering rockets.
[00:20:18.990]Val Sim : And that's also been pretty successful at all that still work at an early stage but that's a problem for us because.
[00:20:28.230]Val Sim : When a stage one rocket pack comes back up flights on the scene for a while and so we had to work through with the US, a whole lot of questions about what does that mean for our technology Safeguards Agreement and how do we.
[00:20:42.930]Val Sim : How do we protect sensitive muscle muscle control technologies and when, during this period, when their flesh of see so that's been an interesting issue to work through.
[00:20:54.360]Val Sim : But, as I see at the museum space sector is not just about rocket lead and we've since the regime came into force in 2017 and we've also regulated.
[00:21:09.270]Val Sim : agencies that operation high altitude so we've launched sending rockets we've licensed sounding.
[00:21:17.190]Val Sim : For the University of Canterbury and and of course we've licensed the NASA super bowl super appreciative alone, but now an exceptionally we're moving towards too much more sophisticated several activities and and.
[00:21:34.980]Val Sim : Although there are a number of people who are looking at these questions door near space is really the first cab off the rank.
[00:21:43.020]Val Sim : And I don't know how much that the the operations of door narrow space, but what they are looking at is or they are in the process of developing I should sentence quite well developed and.
[00:21:56.100]Val Sim : US play a space claim that's capable of multiple flights taking off and landing from established April what and launching satellites into orbit so I feel like it's bringing together and.
[00:22:10.860]Val Sim : ear technologies with space technologies and we've been working pretty closely with our at civil aviation authority and talking about how we can.
[00:22:21.570]Val Sim : Like because we've got two different regulatory regimes that apply at different stages of the operation and how do we go about licensing.
[00:22:30.600]Val Sim : licensing it and efficient and effective manner and and what I think this kind of technology is going to do for all of us as create a whole lot of new challenges, because we're a huge.
[00:22:45.450]Val Sim : Huge questions about will debate suborbital activities that take place above controlled airspace of aviation activities have a space activities watch sort of regime.
[00:22:57.030]Val Sim : should apply to them, and I think we'll also get into a territory in the not too distant future, where we have to say, well, who takes priority doesn't aviation activity detection priority over a space actor.
[00:23:12.210]Val Sim : So some big questions ahead and as my prediction coming out of it tuning in to our international collaborations.
[00:23:20.910]Val Sim : and the first thing I wanted to just touch on as the work that we've done with US company Leo labs and and what Leo labs have done for us initially as a pilot which has since been extended, is to create software which we can have on our.
[00:23:37.860]Val Sim : screens, which allow us to monitor all of the satellites that have been launched from New Zealand and that's pretty exciting, I have to say, we get diverged from our regular work to say let's go and have a look and see what's happening with these satellites and.
[00:23:52.890]Val Sim : But as a launching state, of course, we have a very real interest in space situational awareness space traffic management, and we certainly see companies.
[00:24:03.900]Val Sim : likely a limb as playing an important role in space situational awareness and face traffic management in the future.
[00:24:12.150]Val Sim : And the necessary to ensure the continued availability and continued improvement of space situational awareness data so that's Leo limb segment, I want to touch on also exciting and it's me same set so make Nathan said, is the first joint space.
[00:24:32.550]Val Sim : mission that new zealand's into them to with the US and essentially it may find set is.
[00:24:40.530]Val Sim : is launching Earth observation satellites to monitor and study global methane emissions really for the purpose of monitoring, climate change and.
[00:24:52.590]Val Sim : So that's pretty exciting and our role in New Zealand actually is to host the mission, Operation Center say that that's.
[00:25:02.250]Val Sim : A new development for us, one that we find pretty exciting The other thing we're doing is exploring the potential for collaboration with the dll and, in particular, around things like synthetic.
[00:25:15.600]Val Sim : aperture raider excuse me and propulsion systems and the like so and it's a work in progress.
[00:25:24.330]Val Sim : Turning then briefly to our regulatory environment and our space or the outer space and high altitude activities actors now three years old and it contained to provision and that and.
[00:25:36.090]Val Sim : That we were required to undertake a review and, at the end of three years, so we're about to embark upon that review, I think the next session is actually stood up very well and.
[00:25:48.480]Val Sim : And and it's pretty flexible, so it has allowed us to deal quite well with emerging technologies but there's definitely some fine tuning that we're going to be able to do and.
[00:25:59.310]Val Sim : It probably to look in relation to the new technologies, such as those done by dawn aerospace so that we can actually streamline the process for that at the moment it's a bit clunky.
[00:26:11.580]Val Sim : So the other thing I should say about the Space Agency is when we first set it up, we were in reactive mode, we had to stand up a licensing system, and we had to deal with license applications as we were standing the system it.
[00:26:26.670]Val Sim : and
[00:26:28.140]Val Sim : Finally, five years on we're now able to be quite a lot more proactive and the way we deal with things.
[00:26:35.130]Val Sim : And for the first time, this time we've done gone through a policy prioritization exercise to work out where we should we concentrate our policy efforts and we've identified.
[00:26:47.250]Val Sim : four areas that we really will be our primary focus over the next year or so and I don't think any of them will surprise you space resource utilization as one what to do about constellations as a second one.
[00:27:01.440]Val Sim : suborbital launch quite obviously a third, and an act of debris removal, as the force of Nice priority projects that we've identified.
[00:27:11.280]Val Sim : So what are some Space Agency been doing, one of the things that we did quite early on, was to look at and the principles that should.
[00:27:21.780]Val Sim : apply to our payload permitting processes and we've developed some high level principles around sustainability safety results responsibility.
[00:27:31.950]Val Sim : In alignment with New Zealand values policy and the law as guiding principles for and processes.
[00:27:39.450]Val Sim : Another thing that we've done transparency is something that way as New Zealand just hold dear to our heart.
[00:27:45.210]Val Sim : it's taken a decision to proactively release on our website and details of the pay like permits that you that we've issued so if you're ever interested in it have a play around on our website.
[00:27:57.150]Val Sim : So, having said that i'll leave it there, and obviously we can pick up on any of those things in our later discussion thanks.
[00:28:07.440]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you so much Val.
[00:28:08.760]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Joel will turn it over to you thanks.
[00:28:11.970]Joel Lisk: um what I thought I might do is I might do the opposite and i'm going to go back in time, a little bit first.
[00:28:17.670]Joel Lisk: To kind of put a bit of context into where the age of the kind of Asia Pacific Australia, New Zealand space or a space industry kind of seats.
[00:28:26.640]Joel Lisk: So we've talked a lot about kind of New Zealand is a very much a launching state now and they've done that incredibly well.
[00:28:33.210]Joel Lisk: comparatively there's was foreshadowed by Melissa is this trailer is very much focused on component manufacturing satellite manufacturing ground services but we're just not that 100% sure, yet when it comes to launch.
[00:28:45.270]Joel Lisk: But if we go back about 30 years now, so to the to the late 80s, in the early 90s, and the setting was very, very different.
[00:28:53.730]Joel Lisk: Australia at the time was actually faced with three separate proposals.
[00:28:57.780]Joel Lisk: for launching facilities from Australia and territories, one of them was from numerous are right in the middle of Australia so was a very open clear area with nothing else really going on, except a little bit of military testing.
[00:29:08.880]Joel Lisk: The other ones from northern Queensland so in other relatively uninhabited area close to the equator and another one was to Christmas island so it's an Australian.
[00:29:18.720]Joel Lisk: Government island a little bit further north in north of Australia so there's three different proposals floating cities, I really want, then triggered the Australian Government to act in respective space space industry generally.
[00:29:32.370]Joel Lisk: So what we ended up getting is a whole heap of government reviews in the early 90s and eventual creation of what we have what we used to have, which was our space activities Act, which entered into force in 1998.
[00:29:45.300]Joel Lisk: As believers six nation in the world to create space for, and from that position we like Okay, we have is, we have our legislation we have our interest groups, we have our commercial entities ready to set up and then what happened was nothing.
[00:30:00.390]Joel Lisk: Each of the three proposals fell through relatively quickly, one of the most serious one of them was kistler aerospace who.
[00:30:07.800]Joel Lisk: Even signed and operating contract with the Australian Government they've got no further than that, they eventually went bankrupt and.
[00:30:15.330]Joel Lisk: Now space history, and so what we did from there is this whole exercise and reactive exercise in developing a framework and trying to promote a space economy and when it just never eventually.
[00:30:28.260]Joel Lisk: and competitive with them, we look to New Zealand, who has done an amazing job of facilitating a launch industry much more recently.
[00:30:35.850]Joel Lisk: So we look at the context of that one we look at rocket lad who have a much smaller payload focus kistler aerospace and those ones that are related ones, the time we're looking at very big satellites geostationary satellites that's the stuff you see traditionally from the 90s.
[00:30:52.740]Joel Lisk: That we look at rocket lab now with a much more agile and.
[00:30:56.100]Joel Lisk: flexible approach to payloads and launching activities, and then we see the New Zealand economy with supportive legislation in the outer space and high altitude activities Act, which is very much pushed through.
[00:31:08.370]Joel Lisk: The ability to launch effectively at flexibly and cheaply, which is really supported that economy.
[00:31:15.540]Joel Lisk: And so what we've seen is we've seen New Zealand sitting as a brilliant and effective launching state through the use of a commercial actor.
[00:31:24.180]Joel Lisk: Australia, on the other hand, has really missed the boat so by mid 2000s the space industry effectively had fallen back to ground services with a little bit of focus on component manufacturer and use of space related services so none of the none of the actual space so operation.
[00:31:43.920]Joel Lisk: that's changed relatively quickly here and from about 2010 onwards we saw we've seen this rapid and very, very quick stand up of a whole heap of startup companies.
[00:31:55.800]Joel Lisk: who have been focused on a whole range of activities and parts of the space industry spectrum so we've we have satellite manufacturers, setting up locally and throughout Australia rocket manufacturers.
[00:32:07.200]Joel Lisk: At least two different entities building privately owned launch facilities in different locations across Australia, as well as rocket testing facilities around the place and what we've seen is very quick and rapid.
[00:32:19.470]Joel Lisk: progression towards a new space economy and that St, of course, a bit of a policy push me Australian Government and in the I think 2017 it's when we saw Finally, the creation of the Australian Space Agency.
[00:32:35.100]Joel Lisk: And the reform of what was our space activities act, but which is now the space launches and returns act.
[00:32:40.890]Joel Lisk: So, at that point we were very much of the mindset that we can be launching state, we can revise our legislation and we can go further.
[00:32:49.170]Joel Lisk: into pushing Australia to be a Center of spice activity unfortunately we're still still getting there we're not we're not the entire of the way there.
[00:32:59.340]Joel Lisk: But the Australian government's in relatively active and creating a policy, I have a prop, which is very important, so we have our.
[00:33:06.180]Joel Lisk: are advancing space policy from the Australian Government, which focuses on a whole heap of different areas of the Australian space industry with an aim to.
[00:33:15.660]Joel Lisk: To think it's triple jobs or quadruple jobs in the space industry and by 2030 and a really heavy focus on developing the industry.
[00:33:25.440]Joel Lisk: But, as was mentioned by Melissa the access to space part we're not 100% sure on yet so while access to space he's one of the key policy factors involved in the Australian space strategy it's not something that we're seeing promoted very, very heavily at a government level.
[00:33:43.080]Joel Lisk: Industry anecdotally have said quite often that the Australian government's approach to launch activities at the moment is to respond to market needs.
[00:33:51.360]Joel Lisk: So they're not going to put substantial investment and effort into fostering a launch industry if there isn't the market demand for that.
[00:33:59.610]Joel Lisk: And, and what we see, then, is a lot of Australian companies still looking overseas to do they're launching activities.
[00:34:05.250]Joel Lisk: So we see a lot of companies are looking to rocket lab doodle it's close proximity, or to spacex and with its rapidly decreasing costs for for small set launches.
[00:34:14.880]Joel Lisk: But this is also led to the very quick and substantial development of a component manufacturing satellite mass manufacturing space services men and industry that's incredibly strong at the moment and it just keeps growing incredibly rapidly.
[00:34:30.660]Joel Lisk: So from there it's it's a very interesting title of essentially.
[00:34:35.160]Joel Lisk: Two countries initially responding to a to an interest in a demand for launching activities but going into very separate directions.
[00:34:43.440]Joel Lisk: One we actually have launching in New Zealand, the other we're not there yet they're still private companies trying to set up launch facilities and launch capabilities here in Australia.
[00:34:53.190]Joel Lisk: That we've kind of segue to bit more into those component manufacturing the space of Jason and the space essential industries and business sectors, and so I think that that covers what I wanted to say.
[00:35:05.820]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you all that was incredibly helpful and I, you know I even prepared for this panel, so I wasn't expecting to be so unprepared when I learned, all of this information from all of you, so thank you for those round of updates.
[00:35:18.120]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): For the second half of this I think we're going to go in, I have questions prepared.
[00:35:22.890]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): For each of you kind of in that same order, but I also want to open up the floor for you to ask one another, questions and for our audience to submit any questions that you might have through the Q amp a.
[00:35:33.330]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): will manage those and hopefully be able to get to some audience questions, towards the end here, but I want to start with, Melissa and your opening comments you, of course, mentioned the Artemis records and.
[00:35:45.660]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): As we know, Australia, is one of the founding Member States of the US ARTEMIS records.
[00:35:50.490]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And so what is kind of a general reaction to this kind of inside and outside of the Space Agency, you mentioned some of the questions that brings up in terms of resource utilization moon agreement, some of those other.
[00:36:01.950]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Other issues that it raises so sort of the the general population and then maybe the insiders reactions to that and just sort of the Australian perspective on the creation of these kind of soft laws between countries, as we see these kind of agreements that may be coming into favor.
[00:36:19.320]Melissa de Zwart: Thanks sales with that certainly a question that's got me into a little bit of trouble personally with the Australian Space Agency so.
[00:36:27.780]Melissa de Zwart: i'm always a believer in sort of asking the question and see what the answer will be that you that you get and.
[00:36:34.170]Melissa de Zwart: This, as I said that the official line was that there is essentially no requirement through our membership of the records for us to do anything that would be inconsistent with the obligations that we have undertaken as members of the moon agreement.
[00:36:55.350]Melissa de Zwart: How that plays out in practice I think he's of significant concern to.
[00:37:02.400]Melissa de Zwart: People industry who are working in Australia, who wants to be working in resource extraction resource utilization and it's fair to say.
[00:37:13.230]Melissa de Zwart: that that is a program in terms of r&d that is picking up pace rapidly across Australia there, there are multiple new sort of space industry centers being developed by very many universities, so I can already see that there, there are going to be, you know significant tension points.
[00:37:35.910]Melissa de Zwart: I can also see that that that there is a careful sort of policy pathway that is being.
[00:37:46.560]Melissa de Zwart: undertaken in very careful steps let's say by the Agency and, of course, you know our our agency is very different from from NASA.
[00:37:57.420]Melissa de Zwart: Certainly, something you know that the Joel is very much across these is this sort of tension within.
[00:38:04.140]Melissa de Zwart: The Space Agency in terms of exactly what his role is so it certainly has has had the INSPIRE piece, you know the science, education piece, and having had megan clock is the direct formerly of CSR oh so our large Commonwealth government.
[00:38:21.990]Melissa de Zwart: science and industry research organization, so in this instance of blue sky research organization that that.
[00:38:27.330]Melissa de Zwart: That focus very much on stem education inspire getting people to to to be engaged in in stem professions, at whatever link spaces, that the great story.
[00:38:39.060]Melissa de Zwart: very strong on that point and less developed on the regulatory side and and it's interesting to hear Val talk about in in a sense, how.
[00:38:47.430]Melissa de Zwart: regulations that have really kicked off the way in which the New Zealand Space Agency developed so industry is sort of is is wanting.
[00:38:55.770]Melissa de Zwart: Maybe a little less of the INSPIRE and a little bit more of the business development side so.
[00:39:01.620]Melissa de Zwart: Getting back to the atoms question the Space Agency has been very, very clear and very careful to describe itself as participating in the moon to Mars program so I also have Prof and you'll see that they all have exactly the same cover.
[00:39:16.950]Melissa de Zwart: And the moon to Mars initiative is really the way in which the Australian Space Agency describes what it will be doing any doesn't so much use the Artemis language so it.
[00:39:31.020]Melissa de Zwart: But as i've said hundred and $50 million, not a lot of money, then divided into three specific funding programs then further broken up into small pot so industry was very much.
[00:39:46.500]Melissa de Zwart: happy to get the funding happy to get the boost, but how does it leverage such small pots of money to participate in an extraordinarily ambitious and.
[00:39:58.140]Melissa de Zwart: Long term project that goes without saying that Australian space industry wants to be part of that project.
[00:40:05.010]Melissa de Zwart: But, but is there enough funding available to leverage that so as I say, you know the good news coming out of that is something like the seven sisters Program.
[00:40:15.630]Melissa de Zwart: Certainly it's staged so it's very much okay we're Leo first off Leo to the moon, then eventually moon to Mars so.
[00:40:25.170]Melissa de Zwart: I don't think that's actually answered your question, but I think there's a lot of rhetoric slip I suppose there's there's probably not a lot of awareness by the Australian population generally that we are.
[00:40:38.310]Melissa de Zwart: Participating for one of more concrete word in ARTEMIS chords but somehow Australia is in the game.
[00:40:48.930]Melissa de Zwart: doing what it loves to do you know punching above its weight leveraging you know 10 cents in the dollar, to take part in an amazing project which is sort of what we do so.
[00:40:59.520]Melissa de Zwart: it's a bit more watch this space and, as I say, I, my feeling is that we will see more.
[00:41:06.570]Melissa de Zwart: From the Agency under the new leadership in this area, but it was very much softly softly up to the appointment and the commencement of the new agency here.
[00:41:16.170]Melissa de Zwart: very diplomatic very carefully focused on on the good news inspire science, education piece with the harder business piece regulatory pace lift a little bit on the sidelines until there's more policy direction.
[00:41:33.840]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): You know many ways I think that's an interesting mirror to what we see in NASA in terms of how different administrations highlight different parts of NASA and certainly our most recent administration really focused on the business development side.
[00:41:46.950]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And a little bit separate from educational mission, so that it's interesting in terms of those parallels.
[00:41:52.410]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): That i'll i'll kind of turn the same question over to you what is that New Zealand reaction to ARTEMIS accordance or the development of more of these types of agreements across nations.
[00:42:06.150]Val Sim : New Zealand doesn't currently a signatory to the atom is, of course, and and we were very much involved in and the early discussions about the accords with.
[00:42:17.250]Val Sim : Many of the countries who are now signatories, but is it happened at the time at which we were asked to sign or invited to sign the records.
[00:42:27.900]Val Sim : We were right in the lead up to our general election, and we didn't have any access to ministers to seek a ministerial decision on whether or not to.
[00:42:38.520]Val Sim : join the records so for us, the timing simply wasn't right and the Minister will be asked to make a decision at some point on on the on the record so i'm.
[00:42:49.800]Val Sim : Probably in the reasonably near future, what we have done in the meantime as just some legal analysis of the question of is is there anything in the courts, which has inconsistent with our.
[00:43:03.390]Val Sim : treaty obligations and particularly and consistent with the Outer Space Treaty, but I think the records have been carefully crafted.
[00:43:12.060]Val Sim : To say we will operate in accordance with the outer space treaties New Zealanders not, of course, a party to the main Treaty, so we don't have the.
[00:43:22.350]Val Sim : Added complications of the moon Treaty to deal with when we consider the legal Christians and the way that Australia does.
[00:43:29.430]Val Sim : So there's probably not a lot more I can say about the stage, the Minister will be making a decision on it and they're not treated distant future, so again just watch the space.
[00:43:41.790]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you so they'll when you were speaking, you of course mentioned the space for us and in the US, we can't talk about space, right now, without talking about the space force that's a.
[00:43:52.110]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Major conversation point from where it's going to physically be located, which is a particularly of interest to us here in nebraska.
[00:43:59.040]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): But just generally around the country, but of course we're also longtime allies with Australia, so what is sort of the Australian organizational approach to space security and.
[00:44:08.730]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Does the general public, put an emphasis on space security I think that's kind of why the space force has become a hot button issue.
[00:44:14.310]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Here in the US in terms of how the public.
[00:44:16.650]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Views military behavior in space and i'd be curious to see the Australian perspective and whether or not there's kind of public support for those types of endeavors.
[00:44:27.210]Dale Stephens: Thank you Elspeth.
[00:44:28.590]Dale Stephens: Yes, so the idea of a space for us it doesn't even register in Australia there's no way other than there was a.
[00:44:38.490]Dale Stephens: Show TV show that we all watched but beyond that there was no there's no imperative for us to create a space for us, the focus in the Defense update.
[00:44:50.400]Dale Stephens: Is that each service will develop I think in in jointly affects capacities, with the air force taking taking the lead in that development.
[00:45:01.740]Dale Stephens: In terms of public support Australia traditionally for forever its entire history is a huge nation with a very small population, and we have always sought to.
[00:45:14.220]Dale Stephens: To invest in sound alliances, initially with the UK and more recently with the US, and also in technology we've always felt that technology is the way in which we might.
[00:45:29.220]Dale Stephens: overcome our lack of population and so we've invested in high tech military equipment over the years and we continue to do so with submarines and joint force fighters, etc.
[00:45:43.170]Dale Stephens: So I think in terms of space capability I don't think it is a hard sell.
[00:45:49.800]Dale Stephens: To the Australian population that that we are making investment in military space capability, because our security requires it.
[00:45:58.620]Dale Stephens: we're in a very volatile part of the world and enhance anything that we can do to enable an advantage, I think the Australian population would support it.
[00:46:10.260]Dale Stephens: The investment of $7 billion dollars, which wasn't which was in the Defense update is a lot of money in Australia.
[00:46:17.490]Dale Stephens: And I imagine that that commercial interests would find that very encouraging for innovation and development.
[00:46:26.040]Dale Stephens: In terms of legitimacy, though Australia is a liberal democratic country and we've we were involved, as with the United States and New Zealand in the Vietnam War and.
[00:46:37.110]Dale Stephens: I was a little kid at the time, but I remember, there was enormous reaction to that negative reaction we were involved in team or enormous positive.
[00:46:46.740]Dale Stephens: support, and then we were involved in Iraq, where there were protests in the Australian the Australian Government is very reactive to public opinion.
[00:46:55.920]Dale Stephens: And, but I think I think investment in space capability is something that for for our security is something that I don't think is would be a hard sell to the Australian population but, but you know that's just my view.
[00:47:12.840]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you.
[00:47:14.370]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Joel so you're in private practice and, as you mentioned you're also a PhD candidate working on your dissertation and I believe you're focused basically on how countries craft legislation for emerging space activities.
[00:47:25.440]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): So my question for you is kind of in your view, what are the most potentially contentious emerging space technology and that, New Zealand and Australia are going to be contending with in the upcoming years.
[00:47:36.450]Joel Lisk: yeah i'm a bit of a hard question, because we know how quickly technology moves and I can't predict the future well enough yet.
[00:47:44.430]Joel Lisk: Because I like we've got the moment relatively solid laws when it comes to the to access to space, the underlying framework is there at the moment.
[00:47:53.430]Joel Lisk: If you want to launch something into space you're going to need some sort of permit at some point, and that lines up relatively neatly with our each nations obligations under the Outer Space Treaty, as well as the other four trainings for Australia or New Zealand.
[00:48:08.910]Joel Lisk: The biggest problems come around when we talk about.
[00:48:12.150]Joel Lisk: That certainty, the investment and the ability to raise money then for activities that don't fit that norm so.
[00:48:19.440]Joel Lisk: These aliens work with dawn aerospace, of course, has to be commended because that's something that if there was a regulatory issue early on we're going to see the concept stifle before it even gets built.
[00:48:31.440]Joel Lisk: And we saw a very different approach in the US, of course, to their virgin galactic.
[00:48:36.630]Joel Lisk: launch vehicles in there, that is, the entire platform is regulated under the FAA space rules, as opposed to that crossover between air and space and i've seen some really interesting opinions on that in academia.
[00:48:51.630]Joel Lisk: But I think the next big challenge for most for both nations is this continued push to i'm going to call it spicing traditional services, so when we talk about these mega constellations.
[00:49:02.310]Joel Lisk: who's ultimately responsible and then, how does a nation reconcile that want from industry to have either the lowest common denominator in terms of regulation, and how does it fit that with its international obligations to be responsible and outer space to be respectful of others.
[00:49:18.480]Joel Lisk: activities and we see there's a lot of contention around styling, for example, with a substantial volume of individual satellites that impact on.
[00:49:27.810]Joel Lisk: astronomical astronomy astronomical sorry observation and i'm didn't see some contention, at one point from a payload of rocket labs that was.
[00:49:38.250]Joel Lisk: A mirror ball of sorts that was causing some some issues among some areas in science and it's those kinds of things that will need to be looked into into the future, because it's that that balance between a commercial driver, something that has the potential.
[00:49:52.170]Joel Lisk: to benefit people so styling, of course, bringing broadband and communication satellites to those in remote areas, something that someone like Australia desperately needs.
[00:50:01.290]Joel Lisk: Internet connections incredibly important, and especially when you can't run a cable the entire way across the country.
[00:50:07.590]Joel Lisk: But at the same time there's those ongoing responsibility and sustainability or spice operations aspects that just haven't been entirely determined yet and we keep assessing them.
[00:50:18.030]Joel Lisk: As they come up instead of being proactive and, of course, the ultimate downside of being reactive, is that you don't have any commercial certainty for future activities or for investment.
[00:50:31.860]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Thank you Jill you just inspired me I had just now, this wonderful idea of this comparative projects that you and I could do talking about rural broadband access.
[00:50:39.930]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): So you know we're not as big as Australia, but in the middle of the US, we have the same infrastructure issue of trying to get broadband out to these small rural communities.
[00:50:48.690]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Anyway, it just occurred to me that'd be a very interesting project to look at the different approaches and similar places.
[00:50:55.020]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): So I want to open this up to.
[00:50:57.600]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): audience questions for that Q amp a I have one already that I have received via email, and I think everyone for that enthusiasm for our session today, but I also want to give our panelists an opportunity to ask each other, a question should you have any questions for one another.
[00:51:17.250]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Yes, go ahead, Melissa and then Dale.
[00:51:20.520]Melissa de Zwart: Thanks sales but i've got i've got a question for Val which is.
[00:51:23.490]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Really, that same question I.
[00:51:25.050]Melissa de Zwart: Think Elsa said that you were really addressing to dial in in the military context which is.
[00:51:30.780]Melissa de Zwart: How important Val is it in New Zealand to get sort of public buying or public support for the further development of the space industry, even in the context of.
[00:51:43.200]Melissa de Zwart: You know some of the national security issues that have arisen about you know, putting physical barriers around the launch facility imagine, more recently, with the prospect of.
[00:51:55.590]Melissa de Zwart: rocket rockets being in the sea, so how important is that sort of public.
[00:52:03.840]Melissa de Zwart: enthusiasm for space important or influential in what it is that you do in facilitating the development of the industry.
[00:52:17.700]Val Sim : I think it's fair to say that we would regards and.
[00:52:21.150]Val Sim : Public by as being extremely important and the public need to accept what we're doing, they need to trust what we're doing, they need to trust that if.
[00:52:32.910]Val Sim : we're asked to launch payload that aren't in new zealand's national interest that we won't launch them and that's, of course, one of the reasons that we decided.
[00:52:42.180]Val Sim : To proactively release information about all of the payloads that that we launched and said that the public can see what we're launching and.
[00:52:53.070]Val Sim : And they can see that we've put them through a rigorous assessment process and before showing a permanent so, as I said, it's very important that the environmental questions are also real ones and.
[00:53:08.640]Val Sim : So it's not there's the military dimension, where the public needs to have trust in what we're doing this that the.
[00:53:15.510]Val Sim : environmental impacts, the public needs to have trust in what we're doing, I think the best way to build that trust is by doing what we are doing, which is being open and transparent about we're doing and about the kind of assessments that we make as part of our licensing process.
[00:53:39.060]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Do you had a question.
[00:53:40.770]Dale Stephens: Yes, I do my question I probably is directed to Melissa and Val but job.
[00:53:45.390]Dale Stephens: feel free to jump in on this.
[00:53:47.220]Dale Stephens: And the question is this one, Article six of the Outer Space Treaty, of course, we all know, create a very special relationship between private companies and the government and that.
[00:53:58.350]Dale Stephens: It puts the government on the hook for what they do sorry my my bring cameras talking and it puts it puts governments on the hook for.
[00:54:09.210]Dale Stephens: Private Companies actions, hence enabling countries to possibly step in at at times, where in commercial arrangement she wouldn't expect it.
[00:54:19.050]Dale Stephens: And the converse of that is that in the event that we end up in armed conflict, do you think that that companies know.
[00:54:27.900]Dale Stephens: That they may in carrying military payloads that they are prime targets, so my question is the commercial entities understand the unique nature of the Spice regime and do they know that they expose themselves to particular risk when caring military payloads.
[00:54:47.550]Melissa de Zwart: So i'm going to take a first pass at this one in detail, I think, generally, the answer to that has been up until now probably know, and I think we know that from some of our own satellite providers.
[00:55:00.990]Melissa de Zwart: I I expect now that, given the close relationship generally between a lot of the.
[00:55:08.880]Melissa de Zwart: Small set players and certainly you know the industry participants that I talked to in South Australia, who who work.
[00:55:17.760]Melissa de Zwart: With Defense it's one of their customers I think they are getting a lot more savvy about who their end user is what their particular needs are, and I suspect, you know essentially what what the risks are, I think, and what's interesting is I probably.
[00:55:35.280]Melissa de Zwart: I probably would say that the engineers and the startup developers.
[00:55:41.520]Melissa de Zwart: Have a lot better understanding of that risk then potentially some of the lawyers, some of the lawyers who would like to position themselves as.
[00:55:50.850]Melissa de Zwart: providers to the space industry, so I think the answer to your question is probably the people on the ground level who are working with the customer.
[00:56:00.960]Melissa de Zwart: know and accept that, and I think we probably have a bit more work to do in terms of educating me know people at the mall regulatory end of the spectrum.
[00:56:18.570]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): All right, well, we have a question for you from the Q amp a.
[00:56:22.320]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And that's why they're the New Zealand airline industry is concerned with restricted airspace issues that might arise with the increase launch cadence.
[00:56:38.010]Val Sim : Not at the moment I don't think that we have reached a launch cadence that is.
[00:56:45.390]Val Sim : Of particular concern to the lines at the moment and I can explain that actually in the area where rocket lead launch from and now here there's.
[00:56:55.800]Val Sim : Very few flights per week that couldn't will almost none that could be impacted in any way really by rocket lives flies Having said that, of course, is.
[00:57:08.190]Val Sim : launch activities increase in rocket lives announced intention to get up to at least one launch elite a week and and effect were to.
[00:57:17.370]Val Sim : occur things might be a bit different, and then a few bring new players, such as door near I space into the mix as well also having an impact.
[00:57:26.310]Val Sim : On a space there and I think that's really when we'll get into the territory where they will need to be discussions about how do we and equitably shiver.
[00:57:36.840]Val Sim : His face use between them space operations and airline operations, but I have to say at this point we're not really close to that point.
[00:57:47.820]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): And I guess to build on that for Joel and Melissa probably.
[00:57:50.790]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): You think attention.
[00:57:52.080]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): Like that would arise in Australia, if that attention to sort of focus or shifts into launch capabilities, or do you think that would be entirely dependent sort of on where those capabilities are located.
[00:58:04.050]Joel Lisk: and help us out with this one it's interesting if you look at Australia, where we've where we stick our launch facilities.
[00:58:10.380]Joel Lisk: So one that's being built at the moment here in South Australia, if you look at a map of Australia, you find the middle and then you head to the bond, the most southern part of that.
[00:58:20.340]Joel Lisk: line you just drawn down the middle is where someone's building a launch facility at the moment, with the aim of launching the rockets over the south pole.
[00:58:28.230]Joel Lisk: The problem arises is that that that region is actually a relatively busy a traffic region in that you have flights that cross the country from our very densely populated east coast across to the west coast along that corridor.
[00:58:44.430]Joel Lisk: And while they haven't launched anything from there, yet the same company has a test suborbital test facility, a little bit further north.
[00:58:52.260]Joel Lisk: And they did have some issues around needing to redirect aircrafts for that for the first level but we'll test there.
[00:58:59.760]Joel Lisk: And it was one of the probably the first time that an Australian services regulator had to actively go no you can't fly through here for a little bit and.
[00:59:09.810]Joel Lisk: And unfortunately the for the time that happened, it was the first launch window also didn't eventually right that the suborbital test didn't launch on the first attempt, so they had to push it back a day.
[00:59:21.540]Joel Lisk: So after that happened I think we're more likely to see a bit more of that push back in that that interaction now.
[00:59:28.950]Joel Lisk: And it's going to be especially interesting for sub orbital which has only recently moved across in part to the Australian Space Agency.
[00:59:37.530]Joel Lisk: And, depending on the capability of the suborbital vehicle or that still sits with our civil aviation authority as well, so it'll be an interesting crossover as to when we see more of it happening, and especially in a busy air traffic region.
[00:59:54.060]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): All right, excellent well, we are at our hour mark and I try to be very concise and cognizant of our time because we appreciate your time being here with us.
[01:00:01.920]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): and taking time out of your day to do this, I do want to open it up, if any one of you have any more final comments, something that you didn't get to say earlier that you realize you wanted to.
[01:00:11.700]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): But we'll keep it down to under a minute so I will sit here awkwardly for a moment and see if anyone else has anything else, they want to add.
[01:00:19.140]Melissa de Zwart: Well, I think else with the Australian said to you at the beginning of the panel that we were not even secretly quite jealous of the New Zealanders and I think this Panel has shown you exactly why the Australian New Zealand doesn't want a great job that they do.
[01:00:37.230]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): As fantastical well, thank you all so much for being with us, thank you for kicking off the world speak space series.
[01:00:42.450]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): I do want to mention that our next session will be covering the European perspective from across Europe and will be part of the American society of international laws annual meeting.
[01:00:51.000]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): So if you have questions about the annual meeting you can go to the acl website or reach out to any of us at the University of nebraska website and so with that I want to thank you all, and wish you a good night or good day if you're in the United States.
[01:01:07.410]Elsbeth Magilton (she/her): All right, Thank you everyone.
[01:01:09.750]Melissa de Zwart: Thank you ellsberg Thank you everyone.
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