NE Space Law Week - Spectrum Issues Before FCC and ITU
Elsbeth Magilton — Executive Director of Technology, Security, and Space Law Initiatives, Nebraska Law
Matthew Schaefer — Founding Co-Director of the Space, Cyber, and Telecommunications Law Program and Haggart Work Professor of International Trade, Nebraska Law
Jennifer Manner — Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Echostar
Ruth Pritchard-Kelly — Vice President, Regulatory Affairs, OneWeb
Jennifer Warren — Vice-President, Technology Policy and Regulation, International Astronautical Federation
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[00:00:06.899]Matthew Schaefer: Almost, good afternoon to everybody on the East Coast and good morning to everyone else we'll get started here in just a minute.
[00:00:13.830]Matthew Schaefer: As people enter the room.
[00:00:43.890]Elsbeth Magilton: Good morning and welcome everyone who's signing in. We're going to get started here in just a minute.
[00:01:04.320]Matthew Schaefer: Alright, good afternoon everybody on the East Coast and good morning to everybody else. So welcome to university Nebraska is
[00:01:11.640]Matthew Schaefer: 30th annual Washington DC space lot conference which due to coven is our virtual space law week we've had a great week of discussions already. And we have a great spectrum panel.
[00:01:23.760]Matthew Schaefer: Today to focus on spectrum management issues as well as issues before the ICU and the FCC impacting satellites and have a wealth of
[00:01:32.880]Matthew Schaefer: experience and knowledge on our, our panel. A few quick thank yous. Thank you to the American branch of international law Association, in particular the space law committee.
[00:01:42.630]Matthew Schaefer: And the American Society of international law, in particular their space law interest group who co sponsor this week's virtual space all week.
[00:01:52.140]Matthew Schaefer: Also thank you to else Beth Magellan, who is joining me today is the co moderator of this session.
[00:01:58.500]Matthew Schaefer: Who is executive director of our technology security and space lot initiatives here at the law college and lisandro Marquez Sanchez communication events specialist for our new tech governance center for all their help in coordinating coordinating this week's
[00:02:15.090]Matthew Schaefer: Events.
[00:02:17.400]Matthew Schaefer: Let me introduce the panel.
[00:02:21.120]Matthew Schaefer: Along with Elsa and first introduced to you, Jennifer manner senior vice president of regulatory affairs at EPA star Jennifer's responsible for the company's domestic and international regulatory and policy issues, including spectrum allocations.
[00:02:37.170]Matthew Schaefer: She's previously served in numerous roles at the FCC, including deputy chief of to FCC offices, the public safety and Homeland Security office in the engineering and technology office and also Senior Counsel.
[00:02:49.410]Matthew Schaefer: To an FCC, Commissioner, and importantly for today. She's also co Chair of the commerce spectrum management ADVISORY COMMITTEE AND CO Chair of working group one that released the recent report on potentially remodeling restructuring specter management within the US government
[00:03:10.020]Matthew Schaefer: Also
[00:03:10.920]Elsbeth Magilton: Thanks, Matt. I am delighted to introduce Richard Kelly to everyone. She has over 25 years of experience in the commercial communication satellite industry and is currently the vice president for regulatory affairs for one web
[00:03:23.910]Elsbeth Magilton: There she oversees a global team of legal technical and policy analyst who work to reform regulatory and spectrum policies internationally, specifically, on behalf of the newer non geostationary satellite constellations, such as one man. Thanks for joining us.
[00:03:38.490]Elsbeth Magilton: Thanks.
[00:03:40.080]Matthew Schaefer: And Jennifer ward is vice president of technology policy and regulatory at Lockheed Martin and I misspoke. Jennifer is co Chair of the
[00:03:50.460]Matthew Schaefer: Commerce specter management advisory committee Jennifer manner is the co CHAIR OF WORKING GROUP OF ONE within that advisory committee.
[00:03:58.500]Matthew Schaefer: Jennifer Warren serves on three actually key advisory committees, not just the commerce spectrum management advisory committee, but also the commercial space transportation advisory committee.
[00:04:08.280]Matthew Schaefer: And the State Department's Advisory Committee on international communications and information policy and she, too, has served in several senior roles at the Federal Communications Commission.
[00:04:18.390]Matthew Schaefer: And I'll turn it over to else Beth, we're going to focus on three issues here during the session, the commerce spectrum management advisory committee report.
[00:04:29.160]Matthew Schaefer: Issues before the ICU and issues before the FCC and we're going to start with the commerce spectrum management advisory committee issues and I'll turn it over to Elizabeth for the first question.
[00:04:42.420]Elsbeth Magilton: Great, so like Matt said we want to start by looking at the commerce specter management advisory report from working group one
[00:04:48.870]Elsbeth Magilton: And in that report. Working Group one said that there was a general agreement among the Members that the United States current approach for managing the use of spectrum was no longer effectively serving the needs of the entire stakeholder community.
[00:05:00.720]Elsbeth Magilton: And would benefit from reform. Moreover, the group said that with the increased use of spectrum by a stakeholders that the group agreed issues around allocations spectrum sharing and Banda Jason sees
[00:05:10.680]Elsbeth Magilton: Will need to be handled with both speed and skill to ensure that the US is making the most of its critical national resources so
[00:05:16.890]Elsbeth Magilton: Presumably that's saying that their features of the current regime that do not meet the goals of being flexible predictable efficient reliable or sustainable so on.
[00:05:27.090]Elsbeth Magilton: So I want to talk about that, what led to this finding and what are the issues with the current approaches.
[00:05:32.610]Elsbeth Magilton: That make it an effective and why don't we start with Jennifer manner and then turn to Jennifer Warren. And then, Ruth, of course, if you have any points. We'd love to hear from you as well.
[00:05:41.400]Jennifer Manner: So thank you, Elizabeth. Maybe I can take a step back and just for folks who are attending just kind of walk through
[00:05:49.590]Jennifer Manner: The US spectrum management regime and
[00:05:53.370]Jennifer Manner: If you looked at the report, you'll say, we know that the US operates under a dual spectrum management structure that was established, many years ago in 1934 when the Communications Act was adopted.
[00:06:04.500]Jennifer Manner: NTIA the national telecommunications and information and illustration has regulatory authority over the federal government's use a spectrum and the FCC has regulatory authority over non federal use of spectrum.
[00:06:19.350]Jennifer Manner: And then the communication X allows each agency develop classes of radio service allocate frequency bands these services and authorize frequency bands. There are no statutory federal or non federal bands.
[00:06:35.490]Jennifer Manner: So any federal non-federal shared uses just a result of the FCC and NTIA working together and agreed to that.
[00:06:45.990]Jennifer Manner: So there's a tremendous amount of coordination between the FCC non federal users, which include folks like reduce my company. And of course, Jennifer Lawrence company, as well as state and local governments.
[00:07:01.320]Jennifer Manner: Private users amateur radio operators, those sorts of folks and federal users, which are all the government agencies, whether it's national defense.
[00:07:10.950]Jennifer Manner: New DHS do T all that they they work.
[00:07:17.730]Jennifer Manner: And so the sharing agreement. Some of the bands are going to be allocated are done and discussions between NTIA and FCC and there's a old
[00:07:26.580]Jennifer Manner: Mo you which was negotiated actually when I was at the agency between NTIA and the FCC, which was signed back in 2003 which would increase coordination between agencies to promote efficient use of spectrum.
[00:07:41.400]Jennifer Manner: So you have that you also have a body called the inter department radio Advisory Committee, which is chaired by NTIA and it has all 19 federal agencies represented and that's where the government comes up with its position so NTIA
[00:07:56.100]Jennifer Manner: Is the orchestrator for the federal agencies who are all of course huge spectrum users majority are
[00:08:03.900]Jennifer Manner: And then I just want to bring up. There's also one other arm of the government that's involved. And that's the Department of State, and they are, of course, responsible for all
[00:08:12.120]Jennifer Manner: International aspects of spectrum and they leave us participation in spectrum management treaty negotiations, such as the it you are, which of course is where major spectrum decisions are
[00:08:27.240]Jennifer Manner: So when we looked at the challenges and it was really interesting because the path in the passage you read was something that we agreed to
[00:08:34.740]Jennifer Manner: Really starting, I'd say from almost eight, one of the work of the working grouping put together. But you look at this, this patch management or genius is
[00:08:45.630]Jennifer Manner: You know, decades year old.
[00:08:49.530]Jennifer Manner: And there's been huge technological advances vantages some of them which are enforced or unforeseen. You know, I think there was never a thought in 1934
[00:09:00.240]Jennifer Manner: Much of a satellite, for sure. And even for a wireless and then you have things like five g or the Internet of Things, or in rural areas, we would say the Internet of cows to quote a conversation we had earlier Unmanned Aerial
[00:09:12.870]Jennifer Manner: Vehicles autonomous vehicles telemedicine tell you know tell education and all these increase the pressure, pressure on the very limited spectrum resource we have
[00:09:25.110]Jennifer Manner: And so how do these that is a spectrum get shared among federal and non federal users.
[00:09:32.460]Jennifer Manner: Is it allocated correctly and so forth, you know, you have critical agency mission. So you don't want to jeopardize them, but you also have important uses on the on the non Federal side public safety, for instance.
[00:09:45.690]Jennifer Manner: You know, even telemedicine. You know, we certainly seeing increasing reliance on the Internet.
[00:09:53.430]Jennifer Manner: So you've seen a technical and economic paradigm shift. So one of the really nice things about this CCE Mac and and the Charter of working group one was
[00:10:03.870]Jennifer Manner: That it really gave us an opportunity to look at how we can update our current system to remove what I say, or artificial limitations manage fashion more holistically and make the most effective and efficient use of in spectrum resource.
[00:10:19.080]Jennifer Manner: And we do think that that working on this, and I think we were all very, very dedicated we had oh well over 20 meetings of the group putting together the report we released a summer really was feels that this is a really important opportunity today.
[00:10:36.600]Jennifer Manner: To to address spectrum management. So hopefully that answers your question. Elizabeth and it wasn't too long.
[00:10:45.390]Elsbeth Magilton: In turn over to you. Jennifer one. Yeah.
[00:10:47.730]Jennifer Warren: Thank you. So just to build on Jen's really good based lining their part of the charter that so the answer that the working group one
[00:10:57.960]Jennifer Warren: Providing the report wasn't specific response to a request from NTIA so as an advisory committee and to NTIA we all serve in our own capacity, not in our corporate capacity. So I think that also made
[00:11:11.640]Jennifer Warren: For a different engagement. We're not there representing
[00:11:15.060]Jennifer Warren: Echo or Lockheed or T Mobile, or AT AMP T right where there, especially in a special government employee capacity. So we're able to speak as individuals, not as a flag bearers.
[00:11:26.220]Jennifer Warren: So I think that that's very important and and NTIA asked us, you know, expecting at the time to have a national spectrum strategy released, but even in anticipation
[00:11:35.850]Jennifer Warren: Of a national spectrum strategy. What, what kind of changes. What kind of reforms, what might be necessary. And so, Jennifer co chairing that really led us into a really deep discussion, which is, she said.
[00:11:50.820]Jennifer Warren: Really did emerge very quickly with that with that opening statement and the importance of that that I want to underscore something she said, is when spectrum management was set up.
[00:12:01.020]Jennifer Warren: People were spectrum uses were very siloed. There wasn't the demand that cause the need for overlaps.
[00:12:11.610]Jennifer Warren: In use the sharing concerns, while there was coordination because of adjacent band uses the demand to repurpose spectrum or to share spectrum.
[00:12:24.390]Jennifer Warren: That wasn't really a feature. So nothing has been set up toward that toward that goal or for that future even and you know some of the challenges that are today our cultural
[00:12:39.870]Jennifer Warren: You have an FCC that does a great job in enabling innovation through. It's experimental licensing enabling innovation in n g. So, G. So satellites wireless, but it's very comms focused communications technology focus
[00:12:59.190]Jennifer Warren: It's never needed to be non communications technology focused. I mean its name is the Communications Commission.
[00:13:05.880]Jennifer Warren: The NTIA on the other side with a lot of the federal missions, which is sometimes called the Citizen Services.
[00:13:11.910]Jennifer Warren: Right, the SEC deals with the consumer or subscription consumer services and NTIA deals with Citizen Services, we don't really sign up, except by living in the US to benefit.
[00:13:22.440]Jennifer Warren: From a lot of what all the different agencies do, whether it's weather national security Homeland Security air traffic control right all those things that part of what used to be hard daily exist.
[00:13:34.890]Jennifer Warren: Least and so you've got, you know, their their their focus is in that arena and that comfort level so integrating so that the priorities and comfort levels of both
[00:13:50.490]Jennifer Warren: Our, our rationalized and normalized is something that we need to move toward and there are a number of options that the report put out there.
[00:14:02.820]Jennifer Warren: Are ways of addressing what are quite frankly comfort, cultural and statutory challenges and it was really interesting discussion, but I think it's an important
[00:14:16.230]Jennifer Warren: Focus that the the comfort levels are a cultural barrier, not necessarily a structural barrier.
[00:14:24.870]Jennifer Warren: Anyway, those, those are just some initial thoughts to share
[00:14:29.130]Elsbeth Magilton: Thank you so much. I know. Oh, go ahead.
[00:14:32.220]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Oh, I was just going to add, you know, for for law students. I think that this situation happens a lot in regulations across any
[00:14:41.040]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Any field right where this started in 1934 and it's had incremental adjustments, because the law move slowly and it's usually easier to do something.
[00:14:51.570]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Incrementally a little patchwork here a little adjustment there. But now you know 8090 years later, we're tearing our hair out not only have the services converge, but the technologies have converged.
[00:15:06.240]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And as Jennifer said no one envision this situation in 1934. We have to do something radical. Now, right, and the legislation and regulation doesn't do overhaul of that scale easily. So, but you'll find it in any kind of regulation that the time comes when you just like
[00:15:26.220]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Got to start over, right, and telecoms did it 96
[00:15:31.620]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But this this archaic situation where we never we always thought you know that that the government used to be so different.
[00:15:41.280]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Such a different kind of use and maybe even a different technology from what radio and TV, which was really all we had not even TV right radio and telephones, which were so different. For for the FCC back in in the 30s, so
[00:16:00.840]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Yeah.
[00:16:02.850]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: I think the see smack really struggled, but I think, you know, as, as, as both Jennifer said we're here where they're at in our individual capacity because we have decades of working, often on both sides within government
[00:16:15.300]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Within a company within a law firm or some kind of consulting and to have those different viewpoints really helps and saying,
[00:16:23.100]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: This is a legacy and just situation, we understand how it got there and and it's justified. We do understand how it got there, but but wow, it's not going to work for the next eight years and and the time is now to change it.
[00:16:37.290]Matthew Schaefer: Was
[00:16:38.190]Jennifer Warren: That, oh
[00:16:38.910]Matthew Schaefer: Go ahead. Go ahead, Jennifer.
[00:16:40.380]Jennifer Warren: Sorry, I often think of these panels as a as a discussion. I just think it's great to discuss with Rick and Jennifer to
[00:16:47.670]Jennifer Warren: Is the international dimension of this as well, and not to get into the it you discussion, per se, but in the context of other countries aren't other countries have different structures and they not intentionally don't have this bifurcated
[00:17:07.680]Jennifer Warren: Process and there's bifurcated between comms use a non comms use. And so it's it's a little different when we engage internationally, because you need to on our side, at least.
[00:17:21.480]Jennifer Warren: At one on their side. And it makes for interesting bilateral conversations, let alone multilateral. So there's a question about competitiveness impact to potentially
[00:17:33.540]Jennifer Manner: And maybe I could just add one thing
[00:17:36.630]Jennifer Manner: And I agree with Jennifer, it's, it's great to be on a panel with them to to longtime friends.
[00:17:42.300]Jennifer Manner: Is, you know, we're really starting to see a breakdown and there was even a quote by someone of DOJ there was a situation involving a company called the God who I actually worked for years ago.
[00:17:56.550]Jennifer Manner: And I, there was a lot of tension between the federal and the non Federal side here and
[00:18:02.760]Jennifer Manner: There really was no one who could make a decision. It was very there was no unified decision making, because part of the problem with the processes.
[00:18:10.950]Jennifer Manner: And one of the things we spent a lot of time looking at if you look at the different options we had
[00:18:15.270]Jennifer Manner: Was who ultimately would make a decision. In that case, because before you did have early on very siloed. And even when I was back at the FCC few years ago and working with that we saw this
[00:18:27.360]Jennifer Manner: You know, it just gets harder. There's no decision maker and so that puts you into n the FCC as an independent agency.
[00:18:35.220]Jennifer Manner: And of course, NTIA is part of the executive branch. So you don't have the same management structure. So I think that's another tension that you have and
[00:18:44.820]Jennifer Manner: And we are seeing real life implications of that now where, you know, maybe they weren't more theoretical before, but now we've actually hit a point where I say we can all point to an example that we agreed to go very well.
[00:18:56.340]Matthew Schaefer: Well, the discussion discussions actually gone down the route.
[00:19:00.480]Matthew Schaefer: Of of the next question. And, and so the the report doesn't recommend a single solution, but the report lays out a whole panoply of potential options from major consolidation.
[00:19:14.070]Matthew Schaefer: Of the two entities MTA and FCC to a lesser consolidation to less significant performance not involving consolidation and so
[00:19:24.960]Matthew Schaefer: Maybe we can have the, the, the three of you talk a little bit about what the panoply of options are and what you see is is realistic and some of the costs and benefits of those various options.
[00:19:38.700]Jennifer Manner: I know
[00:19:39.330]Jennifer Manner: I maybe I could go through just kind of what the options are at least as a star. Just quickly, so everyone kind of has the same baseline.
[00:19:49.320]Jennifer Manner: I am cheating a little bit
[00:19:52.380]Jennifer Manner: Um, so essentially we broke it into
[00:19:59.010]Jennifer Manner: Several different different solutions. Some that as you say we're fairly radical
[00:20:04.410]Jennifer Manner: The first would be a full service we when we came up with names that we thought were as descriptive, but they do need a couple sentences.
[00:20:12.180]Jennifer Manner: The full service idea would be you'd create a new independent agency which would perform all the functions for spectrum management policy licensing equipment function sharing and unfortunate enforcement, you would do this with a spectrum.
[00:20:29.550]Jennifer Manner: Spectrum expertise.
[00:20:32.370]Jennifer Manner: A very good board of directors who had to have a certain amount of spectrum expertise, because you really do want to make sure that you have experts, looking at this
[00:20:41.970]Jennifer Manner: So basically all the you wouldn't get away. You want to do away with NTIA an FCC what many important functions they would just divest their spectrum functions to this new agency.
[00:20:54.330]Jennifer Manner: And it would handle spectrum coordination for everything for both the government and the commercial sector. So that's what
[00:21:01.500]Jennifer Manner: Unit is our second option that we came up with and that holds the entire NTIA and FCC into a new unit, the agency. So this would include everything from the spectrum and the non spectrum.
[00:21:16.290]Jennifer Manner: Functions. So, um, and what we would do is, you wouldn't you basically have a merger and the functions with NTIA and FCC would become
[00:21:27.930]Jennifer Manner: Offices of the new agency, but the decision making function would go to a single administrator with the component parts of the agency reporting up to the administrator, but you'd also be able to get the benefits of consolidation. Our third I say
[00:21:44.220]Jennifer Manner: It's extreme in terms of structural change approach was a spectrum resource agency and this would be the streamlined version of a consolidated spectrum agency.
[00:21:55.920]Jennifer Manner: With an emphasis on what we call top level spectrum governance and policy decisions and it would be somewhat limited, it would be focused on planning and allocation international policy which is Jennifer noted was very important Rd
[00:22:10.500]Jennifer Manner: Forecasting and spectrum assignment mechanisms, including things like auctions federal assignments equipment. But some of these areas.
[00:22:21.030]Jennifer Manner: Oh, I'm sorry. I misspoke. I'm
[00:22:24.660]Jennifer Manner: You would still have certain things like auctions licensing and the assignments and equipment authorization would all stay with the NTIA the FCC
[00:22:33.060]Jennifer Manner: S S as continuing that work. So this would really be focused just on a few policy right is
[00:22:40.830]Jennifer Manner: Then we get some limited proposals.
[00:22:45.270]Jennifer Manner: As well. We had two subsidiary proposals which would work with any approach, which is the creation of a research agency and an MO you we all were very concerned.
[00:22:56.250]Jennifer Manner: That there was no agency focused on research and we weren't sure that that really needed to be part of one of these agencies, it could be. And then we looked at some other reforms, including lesser consolidation.
[00:23:09.390]Jennifer Manner: Through a new FCC or NTIA were certain functions were consolidated things like money and allocation international policy forecasting and the like, and then
[00:23:21.690]Jennifer Manner: As I said, we talked about the reforms not involving consolidation. So that's kind of a very high level view.
[00:23:28.740]Jennifer Manner: And maybe I can turn it over. Next, as in Jennifer's ready to speak to pick up on that. But I thought, just a brief overview would be helpful.
[00:23:36.180]Jennifer Warren: Thanks, Jennifer. I like following you, because you do all the good ground work.
[00:23:42.480]Jennifer Warren: So I, one of the things to point out, and one of the challenges that isn't really just between federal and non federal but it's when
[00:23:53.130]Jennifer Warren: There are national priorities, how did those get supported in a bifurcated spectrum world, shall we say, and I'm going to use an example. So when this administration took office space commerce, the huge priority right rias real satiated. The National Space Council.
[00:24:14.070]Jennifer Warren: Created a what I'll call they did for a while one stop shop to go into the office of space commerce in the Department of Commerce.
[00:24:23.190]Jennifer Warren: Really trying to be able to be a portal for all the things that you could need access to to
[00:24:31.080]Jennifer Warren: Have a successful space business and whether you're doing remote sensing whether you need to to launch you know they did the streamlining of the remote sensing which regulations.
[00:24:40.440]Jennifer Warren: There. They're just finalizing the streamlining is, you know, the launch regulations everything that was within the purview and decision will structure.
[00:24:49.110]Jennifer Warren: Of the executive branch. They have focused on the one thing they can't deliver on is spectrum and the spectrum policy decisions that support space because space of spectrum is in the
[00:25:05.160]Jennifer Warren: Unique
[00:25:07.350]Jennifer Warren: Decision of authority of the FCC. So even though NTIA and the FCC collaborate and NTIA has responsibility for licensing federal users and the FCC non federal users.
[00:25:20.760]Jennifer Warren: The ultimate decision making authority about spectrum allocations, whether it's for deep space activity allocations or NGOs, so he Sims.
[00:25:31.380]Jennifer Warren: or what have you. It all resides unilaterally within the FCC. So how do we increase
[00:25:40.920]Jennifer Warren: The collaboration. So we get to a consensus, rather than coordination to consensus, so that national priorities can be fully supported and that extends beyond just the examples you know I gave
[00:25:57.480]Jennifer Warren: But I think that's a fundamental thing that we're struggling with as we kind of move into this again non siloed.
[00:26:06.930]Jennifer Warren: Spectrum dependent economy.
[00:26:11.190]Jennifer Warren: Turn it over to with if she
[00:26:15.180]Jennifer Warren: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks.
[00:26:17.400]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: So much to dress and and I've already seen some of the questions and and so
[00:26:23.190]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: You know, adding on all of this, I want to point out that
[00:26:27.600]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: One of the issues is that right now. These two agencies.
[00:26:31.920]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Don't aren't coordinated in in their, in their discussions, they don't have
[00:26:38.730]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Significant sharing of policy.
[00:26:43.410]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And the loan. Who's in charge of of handing out which licenses and and that's what needs to be better better managed
[00:26:52.860]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And that's where all the suggestions came up for for this, but one of the issues that we have. We had as as as as this committee is toes get stepped on
[00:27:03.690]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Right so NTIA right now it has its little territory and the FCC has its territory and the brand new office of space commerce is carving out its territory.
[00:27:15.030]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And no one has a territory and NASA has a territory and hello Department of State. I don't know anything about spectrum, but I'm in charge of it when we're talking internationally. So that's my territory, so
[00:27:26.880]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: It becomes a political and emotional issue as well as sort of just a good engineering analysis of of what would make sense structurally
[00:27:39.660]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And we're not trying to blow up the system by any means. We're trying to make it better for everybody involved not only the people doing the policy and doing the licensing.
[00:27:50.340]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But the people receiving the licenses. Oh, and of course, while we reorganize licenses still need to be issued. Right. It's not like the FCC or the NTIA can stop what they're doing while everybody repainting the living room. No. Right. So, so there are challenges.
[00:28:10.860]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That that the CCE Mac was just trying to say, Now is the time to start talking about the challenges come on let's let's talk about them when when a president announces I want to find 200 megahertz for five g go
[00:28:26.010]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That's a great policy decision and then the struggle happens within so many different agencies.
[00:28:33.060]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Entered affects the users and the new technologies. So there are a lot of moving parts.
[00:28:38.820]Matthew Schaefer: Well, that this is really been a great discussion see smack report and this critical issue of how to structure a more coherent spectrum management.
[00:28:50.640]Matthew Schaefer: Policy for the United States. I do want to move move us on to ICU issues and Ruth, I thought I'd start with you, just to discuss, from your point of view, what were some of the, the critical achievements of the work.
[00:29:05.250]Matthew Schaefer: And in particular, I know one issue. You were falling from last year's panel was the the milestone requirements for NGOs so systems.
[00:29:17.700]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Yeah. Thanks, Matt. So for those who don't know the the ICU. When a. When a nation.
[00:29:24.780]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Submits paperwork and says, I have an operator that's interested in providing a satellite service, they're going to be at this orbit.
[00:29:32.550]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And using these frequencies. That's called a filing and once you submit that paperwork. The it you gives you seven years to bring that into us. They're like, okay, you've got seven years to build it and launch it and and and prove to us that it's operational.
[00:29:49.680]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And then basically you know it's it's yours or at least your countries, you know, in perpetuity.
[00:29:55.650]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: More or less. And if you don't, if you don't, then the then the next government behind yours, who said, Hey, you know, I'm also interested in the K band.
[00:30:05.160]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Non geostationary satellite system at 1000 kilometers, then the it was like you've had your seven years. So that doesn't change, let's be real clear the the seven year
[00:30:15.930]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Time frame within which filing has to be brought into you still exists. And the problem with a constellation, as opposed to the
[00:30:24.180]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: More traditional one one at a time geostationary satellites is a constellation has 10s, if not hundreds or thousands of satellites and the rules as written said, hey, if you got one satellite up after seven years you're good to go.
[00:30:39.870]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Alright. Meanwhile, of course, no one with a constellation as their as their technical concept can provide a service, or at least not much of a service with one satellite if what they told the ICU was that they needed 12,000 satellites. Right.
[00:30:55.170]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: So, after many years with discussion, the ICU and the FCC as well. By the way, came up with build out milestones, which is very traditional, like in mobile phone right
[00:31:05.970]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Great. You got to licensed. You got to build it out within a certain number of years and the it, you said okay after you bi you so you still have that seven year period of time, but after you after you bring it into us. You have to build out within a certain number of years.
[00:31:22.290]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And I think that the, the, I'm just double checking here and my and my Word document is a 10% or 50% and 100% and that's a whole nother seven years.
[00:31:33.540]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Right. So now you're really looking at 14 years to get your act together, which you know seems pretty reasonable. Nonetheless, there was a lot of fight.
[00:31:45.000]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Mostly among the four or five countries and remember the IQ is it's a country that votes at the IT YOU NOT ME OR latke right or it'll set individually.
[00:31:57.840]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But there were four or five countries that are are are really deep into designing these constellations and there were there were arguments.
[00:32:07.410]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That were mostly national in favor of one time frame or another, depending on where their national system was as far as being able to meet those milestones.
[00:32:17.730]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: So you know as as usually happens at a WRC I think that the the middle ground was found.
[00:32:25.140]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: It's a little tough to meet milestones for two or three of those systems that are probably not actually going to come into fruition, or
[00:32:33.480]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Will be a struggle for them, it'll be a little easier for two or three systems that are already building and launching, they're not going to have any problem with these milestones. Right.
[00:32:43.050]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And so it was definitely a I think an honest attempt by the world to, to, to find the middle ground between allowing innovative new technologies.
[00:32:57.510]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: To get designed and built and remember these constellations are all
[00:33:01.530]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Designing different architectures right there's there's only one way to be a geostationary satellite. But there's an infinite number of ways to be not
[00:33:09.750]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: geostationary. So at this point, no one's really decided or been able to prove, which is best. So the it was allowed time for innovation, but also said, look,
[00:33:20.370]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: After and it is two years after bi you if you haven't been able to get 10% of this concept up in nine years, guys.
[00:33:31.470]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: You know,
[00:33:32.940]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And what they do is they just limit your system to whatever to whatever you got up is your new 10%
[00:33:39.990]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: So, what they say is, look, if you said you needed 12,000 satellites, but you can't get
[00:33:46.680]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: 1200 1200 up in nine years. Whatever you do, launch say you launched 500 that's your new 10%
[00:33:54.960]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Now your whole system is only going to be 5000 it's not can be 12,000 anymore. And they do the same thing at the 50% which is five years after be a you
[00:34:02.310]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: If you couldn't hit 50% baby whatever you've got up, that is your that's your 50% okay let's be realistic. The FCC, by the way, was much harsher the SEC said, look, we'll give you six years from the day you get a license to get up 50%. And if you don't, whatever you launch is 100%
[00:34:22.170]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That you are totally kept Now bear in mind, both the FCC and the it, you have the ability to apply for a waiver.
[00:34:32.280]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Right. So if tell us that doesn't mean it's build out milestone, you can be sure Canada is going to ask the ICU for an exception. They're trying, they got up 9% give them a break. There was a pandemic. Right.
[00:34:49.200]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And and even that process will buy that country's operated a little more time to get their act together and then frankly maybe nine years. You decide.
[00:34:58.500]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: I don't need 12,000 satellites, frankly, the 5000 satellite constellations actually going to be just fine. So I, I really think the ICU has come up with
[00:35:08.610]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: A pretty flexible way to say, Okay, we got to think about these constellations, we need a few more guidelines. A few more milestones.
[00:35:16.680]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But there is still some wiggle room for the legitimate systems Canada is not going to go to bat for a system that isn't actually going to happen right they're not they're not even
[00:35:25.440]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Even for tell us that they're not going to go to the ICU, but they could have a legitimate reason for saying, Look, it's going to come. It's just not going to make this milestone.
[00:35:36.780]Matthew Schaefer: Jennifer Warren, do you have any, any thoughts on work. Work 19
[00:35:42.810]Jennifer Warren: Yes that's practical
[00:35:46.740]Jennifer Warren: So, but trying to keep it focused from, you know, from a space perspective because I go and my company goes with a pretty broad agenda that extends beyond space, but from a space perspective.
[00:35:59.310]Jennifer Warren: You know, if it did a couple of things that at the WRC but also in stage setting for the next WRC which is important from from where we sit
[00:36:09.690]Jennifer Warren: So one of the things that they did was you heard Ruth talk about the process for submitting filings are doing the notification process at the ICU well short duration satellites are
[00:36:23.430]Jennifer Warren: There, they're gone by the time the seven year process is done. Right, so the the it you to take on this challenge of figuring out how do we still
[00:36:36.690]Jennifer Warren: Recognize the reasons for having a satellite network filing process and find a way to kind of scale it to size for the short duration.
[00:36:45.930]Jennifer Warren: Satellite Systems and they did. They came up with a truncated approach which i think you know may made a lot of sense.
[00:36:53.460]Jennifer Warren: It doesn't make sense to try to apply something for I have a duty system that is and when you have these little light systems, what, how we think about it. So I think that was important.
[00:37:07.170]Jennifer Warren: He assumes obviously and they'll probably be some conversation about that. I think
[00:37:11.520]Jennifer Warren: That was important, not only for the essential technology itself, but the regulatory path struck through that resolution itself, maybe a harbinger of pads.
[00:37:25.440]Jennifer Warren: To go forward for other technologies. And I think that's important. And we're going to start to see how we leverage that approach into other new technologies because you always have the naysayers for
[00:37:41.940]Jennifer Warren: That see dual use or other considerations that they might not like to see some of these other new technologies come along, but he seems maybe even more value than expected in terms of how it was achieved.
[00:37:56.100]Jennifer Warren: If you, if you don't mind, spend a second on the stage setting that it did for work 23
[00:38:01.830]Jennifer Warren: Right, there's a
[00:38:03.390]Jennifer Warren: There's a number of space related items that we're that we find interesting and others. We know find interesting. So Narrowband mobile satellite services for IoT
[00:38:16.140]Jennifer Warren: Going back to Jennifer's point IO cows.
[00:38:19.710]Jennifer Warren: But space to space satellite length, that's another important topic we think there's also on FSS 17 given gigahertz allocation discussion.
[00:38:33.600]Jennifer Warren: More isms.
[00:38:35.700]Jennifer Warren: But then also a regulatory discussion on suborbital vehicles.
[00:38:40.530]Jennifer Warren: It's not going to be a spectrum allocation, but it's going to be a regulatory discussion. And that's important.
[00:38:47.430]Jennifer Warren: So, you know, we look forward to participating in a number of those with some other topics of interest as well. But those, those are kind of the big space ones from from where we said
[00:39:01.020]Matthew Schaefer: Jennifer. Jennifer manner and I, by the way, I think that list. Jennifer Warren gave i think i think we better plan on regrouping again next year for this panel. Right. So Jennifer manner.
[00:39:11.070]Jennifer Manner: Yeah, I think that just to complement what
[00:39:12.960]Jennifer Manner: Ruth and Jennifer brought up one thing they didn't really talk about was the Spectrum side and there are such a focus on 5G
[00:39:20.220]Jennifer Manner: And talk about five. Gee, I don't view it as as a single technology. I think it's a network of networks, you're never going to reach those cows.
[00:39:29.310]Jennifer Manner: In the Internet of cows unless you've got satellite or non terrestrial technologies. It doesn't even have to be satellite. Um, there's just certain things that that cost per bit of on terrestrial
[00:39:40.200]Jennifer Manner: Or geographic or other consideration. So one of the big issues at work 19 and probably look at the most. Press was the search for 5G spectrum.
[00:39:48.990]Jennifer Manner: And there was our search and the satellite industry and we successfully got another gigahertz spectrum added
[00:39:56.280]Jennifer Manner: At in the upper middle millimeter wave and 54 to 51 for and hopefully the FCC will implement that soon it goes into effect early next year.
[00:40:06.720]Jennifer Manner: But the bigger issue. I'd say for pretty much not just not just satellites commercial satellites, but also
[00:40:16.080]Jennifer Manner: Government users and of course with the terrestrial mobile industry. It was additional
[00:40:20.400]Jennifer Manner: Terrestrial spectrum for what they call I empty, but was his coworker five g terrestrial now.
[00:40:26.760]Jennifer Manner: And a number of the bands that were being looked at where bands. Well, they were all about 24 gigahertz were bands for satellite either has incumbents or satellite was
[00:40:36.510]Jennifer Manner: Has had the spectrum for a while and things are finally getting right or systems to go up and I'll give you an example of a band would be
[00:40:44.430]Jennifer Manner: In the band's about 40 gigahertz. We've had those applications for 10 years and systems like my company or are about to be launched in the next year, um, tell us that has one I know one month has one
[00:40:57.450]Jennifer Manner: Other people have one is that, um, and what was at risk was what happens with that spectrum. Does it go totally to terrestrial. Is there some way to share it. How do you do that. So that was a huge part of this conference. It didn't
[00:41:16.110]Jennifer Manner: Make it came out in a somewhat balanced manner, you know, terrestrial was certainly
[00:41:22.350]Jennifer Manner: It was certainly there's a lot of. There's a lot of them pressure politically on governments to be the first in terrestrial five J. You can see that every day and the paper. Someone's always claiming their first companies always saying there first.
[00:41:35.880]Jennifer Manner: So you have that up there was certain bands that were reserved for satellite. We were happy to say
[00:41:41.910]Jennifer Manner: So was it perfect. Now, and that really led to a big debate that's going on. It was which which actually continued from previous WRC which
[00:41:50.130]Jennifer Manner: Set the schedule for which bands were being included for discussion. And that was a big fight because one of our key bands. Okay, a band.
[00:41:57.330]Jennifer Manner: Where I'm Ruth and I both have satellites that operate almost every broadband set or every Robin satellite operator operates in that band. So that was kept off be 19 agenda.
[00:42:10.110]Jennifer Manner: And then big part of the discussion at the conference was a standard for service work 23 and I agree with him on those items.
[00:42:17.490]Jennifer Manner: With the additional one is the terrestrial industries have done so they're looking at a number of bands below 10 gigahertz.
[00:42:25.290]Jennifer Manner: You know, including bands, we use for Peter links, including see different portions of this event which other satellite operators use and use for
[00:42:33.660]Jennifer Manner: non governmental services. Well, so that's going to be a big fight again, which is how do you do that and that really goes back to our initial discussion on the sharing issues. And one of the things I think we saw
[00:42:46.020]Jennifer Manner: During the conference was the struggle to balance on the delegation that commercial and non commercial uses of the band and what our positions were. And I think it's getting harder and harder.
[00:42:56.790]Jennifer Manner: I think Jennifer mentioned this earlier to prepare for the international process, especially as we're seeing greater attentions on sharing
[00:43:05.550]Jennifer Manner: Who does and even inter-service. I mean, we always have problems, who does the FCC look at when they're looking at two different commercial interests.
[00:43:15.480]Jennifer Manner: You know, is it the terrestrial 5G, or is it sounded like broadband and five, Jay. Oh, it's a question, it's a complex calculation. So just wanted to add that one piece. Well,
[00:43:26.190]Matthew Schaefer: Before I turn it to Elspeth to to go down that FCC line of questioning. I did want to give Ruth, the chance to comment on work 2023 if you have thoughts on what's what's coming up.
[00:43:38.580]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: I do and and for those who aren't familiar with the WRC process. It's, you know, sometimes referred to jokingly as the spectrum Olympics, because it happens every four years and
[00:43:50.940]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And every four years it takes four weeks and every four years, people are like, why does this take four weeks. Why does it take four years.
[00:43:59.550]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But the fact of the matter is working 19 set up about 35 or 40 different study areas and they're going to be studied and tested and measured and discussed
[00:44:12.930]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: For four years and then there'll be proposals presented to work 23 and some things take time. And while we would all like to see it happen more quickly.
[00:44:23.400]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: We're trying to harmonize and that's the key word here trying to harmonize spectrum use across more than one region and by region. I mean like county in Iowa with the county next door.
[00:44:38.310]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Is super difficult, right. Remember the ICU, the signatories are sovereign nations and while they mostly understand that harmonizing there spectrum us, especially with with wireless spectrum. Well, I guess there's the wireless spectrum but
[00:44:55.170]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Is important. Sometimes they regroup. They pull back into themselves and they say, Look, I don't care that the it you decided not to study the 28 gigahertz band.
[00:45:06.000]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: For I empty I the sovereign nation of the United States. I'm going to use part of that band for 5G because it's best for our nation.
[00:45:17.220]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And and that
[00:45:19.860]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That will continue. I don't see that changing even while technology in law changes right the individual nations of the world. They weigh their own interest in harmonizing versus doing what's best for their country.
[00:45:35.430]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And and also
[00:45:38.010]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Law students. This is a career. This is a long term strategic kind of role in a company, the regulatory and policy team.
[00:45:50.250]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: You know, our next big meeting is in four years. The next big meeting. I'm worried about is in 2023 I'm already thinking about 2027
[00:45:58.800]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Because in 2023 I have to propose the things that are going to be studied for 2027 right and you can be sure that if I work for a non geostationary company. I'm going to propose things that favor
[00:46:11.310]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Non geostationary constellations. But, but, and this is something we learn as we have more than one job under our belts by 2023 I could be working for a high altitude platform company.
[00:46:23.160]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And I not working.
[00:46:24.420]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Right, I'm or or or terrestrial company. And so you do really find yourself thinking in a neutral judge like way, what's going to be best going forward. What's most likely to win the votes of the most number of nations.
[00:46:38.700]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And and you're you're in. It's a very long term strategic trajectory working up to 23 and already thinking about 27
[00:46:48.870]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Right.
[00:46:50.280]Matthew Schaefer: I'll turn it over to you.
[00:46:52.050]Elsbeth Magilton: Great. Well, before we jump into spectrum issues before the FCC. I do want to clarify error comments about the Internet of cows, because I had someone private message me what what do you want. And I just want to clarify. That's a comment that we had before the session started
[00:47:07.530]Elsbeth Magilton: About agriculture and agricultural data uses and we had a student who saw a feedlot for the first time and and rare could realize how much data was being sent from each individual account those farmers.
[00:47:17.640]Elsbeth Magilton: And said, it's not the Internet of Things. It's the internet of cows.
[00:47:20.460]Elsbeth Magilton: And so we're talking about basically data us from the ag sector right and thinking outside of population centers and in a more rural capacity as we think about broadband usage.
[00:47:30.060]Elsbeth Magilton: So with that, now we will turn to spectrum issues before the SEC impacting satellite. So let's start with
[00:47:36.120]Elsbeth Magilton: Jennifer Warren adjacent ban sharing issues are rising more and more frequently and it doesn't seem like that's stopping right this is going to they're going to increasingly continue to arise.
[00:47:46.200]Elsbeth Magilton: So what are the possible approaches to addressing such issues and what in your opinion, is the best approach.
[00:47:53.640]Jennifer Warren: Yeah, I wish I had the answer for the best approach.
[00:47:58.680]Jennifer Warren: I think we have to in the short term, at least deal with what is statutorily permitted and that is the
[00:48:09.060]Jennifer Warren: Trying to ensure that the two agencies actually undertake meaningful collaboration and coordination toward consensus on a Jason ban interference issues.
[00:48:23.190]Jennifer Warren: These are significant. They set precedents. They're disruptive if done wrong and very hard to roll back. It's not like
[00:48:33.120]Jennifer Warren: Other regulations. I mean, it's very hard to take something off the road, so to speak. Once it's out there. And so getting some of these decisions really right and having proof of the concept before one x on the concept is is important test beds, a lot more. I think testbed share
[00:48:59.280]Jennifer Warren: Sharing excuse me through test beds and what have you, needs to be done.
[00:49:04.020]Jennifer Warren: The IPs. The NTIA lab in Boulder and the FCC labs.
[00:49:11.310]Jennifer Warren: There's
[00:49:12.810]Jennifer Warren: There needs to be more in house testing. So, for example, some of the more prominent disputes, there really hasn't been FCC test run. They have been third party tests.
[00:49:25.530]Jennifer Warren: And NTIA labs, which I fully, you know, I'm sure it is. Does an awesome job. But if the FCC is doing the decision making and they're not running their own test but accepting, whether it's a commercial operator that's pushing a notion
[00:49:41.310]Jennifer Warren: That's in contrast to federal labs, the same conclusions. Maybe the FCC ought to have the ability and the, the skilled engineers for that type of technology to actually run and validate tests. So it may be some insourcing of capabilities.
[00:50:00.990]Jennifer Warren: But I think, first of all, that has to be a broader recognition that this is an. These are not one off issues. The couple that have happened. This is going to get increasingly challenging
[00:50:12.240]Jennifer Warren: And we need to kind of build institutional capability that can manage these in a very
[00:50:22.500]Jennifer Warren: What a professional
[00:50:25.980]Jennifer Warren: predictable fashion.
[00:50:28.770]Jennifer Warren: That's that's the best. It's not a silver bullet. But it's all I got.
[00:50:33.900]Elsbeth Magilton: For a move on. I want to make sure roofer Jennifer, you have anything else to add,
[00:50:40.710]Elsbeth Magilton: Alright, so I have a question that I'm going to start with Jennifer manner.
[00:50:44.910]Elsbeth Magilton: The FCC just adopted guidelines on Earth stations sitting in the bands of 24 gigahertz that are shared between fixed satellite service bands.
[00:50:52.020]Elsbeth Magilton: And satellite bands. So this further restrict satellite flexibility for the benefit of 5G mobile wireless. Is this a concerning example for the future. What are your reactions to that.
[00:51:03.150]Jennifer Manner: Yeah, I was very concerning and something that the satellite industry.
[00:51:08.790]Jennifer Manner: Has been totally unified on which I wish I would tell you that the commercial satellite industry was always unified, but we know
[00:51:17.580]Jennifer Manner: As you would see it any WRC conference, for instance, but this is one which came out of nowhere, the FCC. So just some background, the FCC adopted in 2017
[00:51:28.590]Jennifer Manner: And this goes back to our discussion on that K or the 28 gigahertz band had made a decision to use a band that's heavily used by satellite operators and allow portion of it to be shared.
[00:51:40.200]Jennifer Manner: With 5G terrestrial but I shared it essentially gave a secondary status and to be fair, it was a band that previously.
[00:51:49.890]Jennifer Manner: We had shared with fixed point to point, microwave and now it opened up to this multi point usage.
[00:51:56.940]Jennifer Manner: In addition, they did the same thing with portions of fan other bands that have been planned for satellite usage.
[00:52:03.690]Jennifer Manner: For a number of years. So all of a sudden our plans for how we're going to use them that have changed some of us use the band for gateway is like my company.
[00:52:13.320]Jennifer Manner: Andrews company other companies that plan to use them for more more or station station. Use the licensing structures individually licensed or station so they might have an Internet access point.
[00:52:27.540]Jennifer Manner: Um, as part of the order the FCC had asked the Bureau to issue a public notice to see about guidelines, because the rules weren't very specific that was three years ago. And then all of a sudden
[00:52:41.670]Jennifer Manner: We ended up with guidelines and the guidelines didn't necessarily track the public notice
[00:52:47.070]Jennifer Manner: They address things that weren't in the public notice and more importantly we view them as changing the rules. We've been living into these rules for two and a half, three years and designing our systems to meet those roles and all of a sudden two in particular.
[00:53:02.310]Jennifer Manner: One was one of the one of the benefits of the FCC original decision was if you had a nurse station that was co located with an earlier station that was grandfathered you would be able to
[00:53:14.670]Jennifer Manner: Get that counted as a as a signal or station. And that's important because the FCC put limits on how many gateway or how many stations, you can have in each county
[00:53:23.910]Jennifer Manner: Or Richie graphic licensing area of the terrestrial operator. So all of a sudden, with the change in the public notice the guidelines that were issued
[00:53:34.020]Jennifer Manner: You might have you might be flying and there may already be you might end up being a fourth. We're going to co located, but it doesn't have the same
[00:53:43.860]Jennifer Manner: Contours we would say, as the existing station. Another big one. So, so that's a good example. The other was the definition of highways. The FCC had said there were certain things. We couldn't go near we couldn't go near it. We couldn't say
[00:53:56.940]Jennifer Manner: Over roadway near roadways near Amtrak near a school football stadiums near ports tons and tons and all of a sudden the FCC chose to change the definition of what a highway was from a federal highway to state and local highways. So for instance, Maryland alone has nine
[00:54:21.090]Jennifer Manner: Say maybe nine additional roadways that are included as state state highways.
[00:54:27.540]Jennifer Manner: So all sudden, the chances of you getting that road increased dramatically. So, so we're working with the FCC we we filed a petition for recon on this, but it's it's a very bad precedent.
[00:54:39.420]Jennifer Manner: Because it's Jennifer was talking about with the Jason band issue and we're has been talking about the into SOS. One of the things that's so critical to us is predictability.
[00:54:49.170]Jennifer Manner: Unlike terrestrial systems. We are longtime systems. My imma geostationary operator our satellites last 1520 years rousson n g. So, but you're still talking about. I started my miscalculate 575 years but maybe some global under um
[00:55:07.590]Jennifer Manner: You know, see those and it takes us regio is, you know, a few years, you know, whether it's two years or three years to design systems.
[00:55:16.800]Jennifer Manner: And you have to be able to actually identify where you're putting things. So these sorts of changes really concern us and we're afraid. We're going to see this more and more
[00:55:26.220]Jennifer Manner: As demand among the different services for spectrum increases and, you know, as we see, you know, we need additional spectrum.
[00:55:34.890]Jennifer Manner: Certainly we understand the terrestrial we're not saying they don't need spectrum. It's just how do you do this, how do you do the sharing. And that goes back to our original discussion.
[00:55:43.770]Jennifer Manner: That we had and Jennifer session on the Jason say which
[00:55:47.520]Jennifer Manner: Is not even look at this holistically. How do you ensure you balance things in a neutral manner. And when I say a neutral. I don't mean
[00:55:55.380]Jennifer Manner: Well, terrestrial should get five games, and I should get five gigs. Now that's not necessarily equal, but how do you, how do you do it in a way that makes sense.
[00:56:04.050]Jennifer Manner: So that our, our users can be served. And that, you know, and not harmed. And I think what we're afraid of those were saying things, you know, and I'll talk about agriculture for a second. I have the honor to serve on the FCC precision agriculture.
[00:56:19.980]Jennifer Manner: Advisory Committee on one of the working groups on conductivity and you know getting that service out to
[00:56:26.700]Jennifer Manner: Out to the farmer and the rancher, to make sure that information is available, it would be great if
[00:56:32.250]Jennifer Manner: Of course if fiber reached everywhere. It's never going to do that. It's cost prohibitive. So you have to look at these other options, you know, whether it's an NGO so system, whether it's a half system, whether it's GSO system.
[00:56:42.840]Jennifer Manner: Whether it's fixed wireless and there has to be some give and take. There
[00:56:49.500]Matthew Schaefer: We're going to shift to a lightning round here we're going to get to audience questions, but also the final moderated lead question.
[00:56:58.260]Matthew Schaefer: So first question maybe to Ruth all package to to for you park 25 reform. We're streamlining launch licensing now, but we need to streamline
[00:57:11.970]Matthew Schaefer: Part 25 and question from the audience when it comes to low Earth orbit n g. So apps to the ICU, is it still first come first serve at the ICU for those
[00:57:25.950]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: So I'll start with that answer. First, the answer is yes, it's, it's no different. It doesn't matter what orbital altitude, you're asking for.
[00:57:34.650]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: The package of information from a government goes in and says I want this orbital altitude and these frequencies and it's still first come first serve. So
[00:57:44.850]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And that
[00:57:46.590]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That seems still to be the fairest system that the world has worked out. It's like, it's like a jury of your peers. It's not perfect.
[00:57:56.580]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But compared to everything else that our various nations have come up with the it use what we call it a priority system seems to work. So that's still the case, unlike the FCC is part 25 so
[00:58:13.050]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Again, just like the telecom act on the split of MTA and FCC part 25 has had incremental adjustments every year, every year, some part of that body gets updated and and adjusted and the FCC is very transparent about proposed rulemaking.
[00:58:34.890]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But for example, on the, on the, on the new technology of non geostationary satellites. One of the difficulties as I've mentioned is it's not
[00:58:46.560]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Homogenous it's not uniform, but it's it's super hard to come up with a single set of rules for a wide variety of technologies.
[00:58:57.810]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And that's, that's the problem of both the ICU and the SEC are struggling with, with the non geostationary which
[00:59:05.070]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: That one word includes everything from, you know, a CubeSat the size of a candy bar to something that is several thousand kilos of could be used in geostationary but just isn't right. So,
[00:59:22.020]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: This is super hard, but this has to happen. So, so I think several companies have already begun to ask the FCC to relook at the MDS rules within part 25
[00:59:35.760]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And and it's probably going to happen and I think
[00:59:41.490]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: It's going to be hard. It's going to be super hard, because a lot of the rules for example were set up about 20 years ago when there really was this one huge new system called the desert and it got a lot of rules changed at the ICU and at the FCC and then it went bankrupt awkward.
[01:00:02.250]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: But those rules are still around and and the ICU software was designed around that system. And so when oh three became along about 10 years later.
[01:00:13.440]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And tried to show to show the the ICU how how it was able to coordinate with other operators and not interfere with them.
[01:00:21.540]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: The software went berserk because it was designed only on the telephone basic architecture. So the it, you had to redo software that was more open to things like caper or or star link or now one web
[01:00:36.090]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: And the FCC is gonna is struggling with the same thing, right, it's just it's a constant struggle to keep the rules in line with new technologies because technology always moves more quickly than the law right
[01:00:50.130]Matthew Schaefer: I want to turn to Jennifer Warren and Jennifer manner for also your thoughts on part 25 reform but
[01:00:57.540]Matthew Schaefer: The other questions coming in from the audience were any quick reactions to the orbital debris mitigation rules, the FCC put out. And then also, one question are pressing back a little bit.
[01:01:11.070]Matthew Schaefer: On spectrum management reforms, saying, can, can you really have under one entity commercial and government equities and interest on spectrum brought under, under one entity. So part 25 perform orbital debris and a little concluding point on the CCE back report.
[01:01:33.270]Jennifer Warren: General, I'm going to defer to you on part 25 since I don't have a system in operation.
[01:01:39.090]Jennifer Manner: I'll go after you want you want me to start my first 25 and then turn it back to you then. So
[01:01:46.590]Jennifer Manner: I guess the other issue we're seeing for 25 is anti competitive behavior by the terrestrial industry, um, this was kind of
[01:01:54.270]Jennifer Manner: The first time and I've been practicing. I used to work for teledensity I was there outside counsel Ruth when those rules were done. So I'm very proud of that fact that they've stayed
[01:02:03.990]Jennifer Manner: Not only that, but a rate of return calculation I did in 1992 at the FCC for cable is still in effect. So things say this goes back to the things probably need to change more frequently than they do. But it also praised predictability. But with that said, I do want to touch on port 25
[01:02:22.050]Jennifer Manner: Because what we've seen is very interested. We talked about this station sighting and this is just another example.
[01:02:28.890]Jennifer Manner: In as part of the current part 25 year old making the industry overwhelmingly once again, we were able to reach consensus not easy.
[01:02:38.130]Jennifer Manner: It has supported an approach where right now. We have to get our licenses for our brand station separate from our space stations and Ruth can tell you she was going through the same hell I am
[01:02:48.810]Jennifer Manner: Is yeah the issue has that it's different time. You can get your satellite or station years in advance and you want to do that. So you have the certainty.
[01:02:58.470]Jennifer Manner: And when you're designing your space station. YOU'RE ALSO DESIGNING where your stations go but under the SEC is rule. So you can only get you have to bring those are stations and to use with your satellite system within one year.
[01:03:11.370]Jennifer Manner: So you can't get it with any sort of, you know, maybe the FCC, they'll give it to a year and a half. Earlier, two years, but they're not giving you the sort of syrup you need certainty. So what we've been arguing is there needs to be
[01:03:24.120]Jennifer Manner: For us satellites, you should be able to get a system license and for other systems, you should be able to get or stations earlier.
[01:03:33.450]Jennifer Manner: What was surprising about that was because we now share bands with the terrestrial industry, the terrestrial industry came in both who CTA and briars and said,
[01:03:42.780]Jennifer Manner: No, that doesn't give us the opportunity to attract. We don't have this. But when you look at the wireless roles, the wireless industry does take care has the ability to have certainty.
[01:03:55.950]Jennifer Manner: So we're in a situation where, you know, the FCC there is going to have to balance right.
[01:04:01.830]Jennifer Manner: Um, I see there's an anti competitive on the wireless industry as far for coming in and saying, Wait, you shouldn't be able to have the same sort of flexibilities we have
[01:04:12.210]Jennifer Manner: So that kind of builds up, I'm just going to touch on maybe the others Jan if you're okay just
[01:04:17.940]Jennifer Manner: So that kind of touches on this, I'd even say this single entity and my jury I Jennifer night lots of conversations about this and I go back and forth.
[01:04:28.020]Jennifer Manner: But I think it is possible. I don't know which is the best route. If you told me I had a vote today. I don't think I could tell you, but I do think it is possible that a single and today could do this balancing act. They do it in other countries, some countries do it better than others.
[01:04:44.100]Jennifer Manner: And it really depends on the structure and I think it depends a lot on the quality of the leadership, you take, you know, I think leadership is strictly political. This will be an abysmal failure.
[01:04:55.830]Jennifer Manner: You're going to need some people involved to have better management expertise or depending on the format broader expertise.
[01:05:03.870]Jennifer Manner: So I do think it is possible and I'll defer to Jennifer most of my time on that because I know she has some very good views on this, but I did want to touch an orbital debris.
[01:05:15.510]Jennifer Manner: That has been very controversial my would raise us also that there is those there's a very significant UK shooting going on it at the same time.
[01:05:24.540]Jennifer Manner: And to be honest, I think I can say for the whole satellite industry is very, very focused on space sustainability and it's important to all of us.
[01:05:34.080]Jennifer Manner: But some of the FCC is proposals and our focus more because I'm a DSL I'll defer to Ruth on that NGOs, oh issues.
[01:05:41.760]Jennifer Manner: The FCC is proposing things like unlimited indemnification liability on operators and bombs performance basically bombs post mission disposal.
[01:05:53.370]Jennifer Manner: Which we haven't seen a real need for and these are two issues that I think you'll see the industry overwhelmingly
[01:06:00.480]Jennifer Manner: Thanks are bad things. It's adding additional costs without a benefit that we say
[01:06:05.940]Jennifer Manner: So, you know, those are issues on the all the overall, as I said, there's very specific NGOs so issues, but I think all of us, whether we're GSO or NGOs or work.
[01:06:15.540]Jennifer Manner: Don't want to keep this so many cool things in space your space user, you want to be safe. I you know I was just reading this morning in The New Yorker. There's an article
[01:06:25.200]Jennifer Manner: About a really good article, actually, which has been now on this whole space sustainability environmental issue about how the space station.
[01:06:33.120]Jennifer Manner: Was almost hit. Oh, years ago, um, you know, with a very small piece and what goes on. So, you know, I think we all really care about this. We spend a lot of times, Jennifer and I have the opportunity
[01:06:44.040]Jennifer Manner: The honorary co chair the space sustainability working group at the satellite Industry Association. So it's something we're all focused on. So, Jennifer, I'm going to turn over to you for more of a discussion on your favorite subject.
[01:06:56.820]Jennifer Warren: So I'll speak to that all three, then obviously so whether it's feasible to have a single agency or single entity, I agree with a lot of what Jennifer said there are pros and cons, but it is possible
[01:07:12.450]Jennifer Warren: If you think about it, the FCC already has state and local. So, and yet at the same time, when I think about who has the most common concept of operations or economy.
[01:07:25.110]Jennifer Warren: It's the federal, state, and local not necessarily the commercial satellite commercial wireless and the state and local. So it depends what we're trying to achieve.
[01:07:37.200]Jennifer Warren: In terms of creating a sense of a trusted environment for spectrum policy and allocations, not the licensing because
[01:07:46.050]Jennifer Warren: From. You know, I think it's a fair point. When people. What are concerned about like the Unity agency, perhaps, if it's in the executive branch. Is that really the independent regulator than
[01:07:56.190]Jennifer Warren: An independent regulator should focus on competition, right, the importance of the independent regulator is competition and enforcement for consumer purposes, etc.
[01:08:07.350]Jennifer Warren: The question of spectrum policy is not just about. It's not really about competition in and of itself alone right
[01:08:17.100]Jennifer Warren: Who gets the spectrum should be the decision not how the spectrum is put to use that could be the unified of
[01:08:25.410]Jennifer Warren: A single entity approach. I want to get away from the systematic language could be a single entity approach. So there are pros and cons. When you think about you know airspace, the FAA has all of the airspace, except for segregated airspace, of course.
[01:08:43.950]Jennifer Warren: Which is easily able to be, I guess Cortlandt you can make those lanes and in the airspace as not as easy and spectrum and we are
[01:08:57.360]Jennifer Warren: I'll say that kind of dovetails into orbital debris.
[01:09:01.170]Jennifer Warren: There's no lanes in space.
[01:09:04.440]Jennifer Warren: Just like the spectrum lines are getting pretty overlapping there's there's no lanes and space to when we look at the orbital debris regulations we really have trying to be be pushing for a whole of government approach because the segregated and non segregated concepts from
[01:09:21.000]Jennifer Warren: From airspace don't translate to space. So having one set of rules for government agencies and one set of rules for commercial
[01:09:30.300]Jennifer Warren: May not be the best because we all have to coexist. And so that's been our concerning at the same time, wanting to make sure that there's innovation for a lot of small experimental satellite
[01:09:42.390]Jennifer Warren: Tests and that sort of things that we don't want to lose the innovation, but we want to keep a sustainable environment. I'm going to stop there because I think we're getting close to the end of our time. So Elspeth
[01:09:55.110]Jennifer Warren: But
[01:09:55.530]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you.
[01:09:57.720]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you all.
[01:10:00.870]Matthew Schaefer: This
[01:10:01.320]Matthew Schaefer: Has been a terrific discussion, Jennifer, Warren, Ruth Richard Kelly Jennifer manner. Thank you so much. We'll get on your calendars early for
[01:10:09.030]Matthew Schaefer: For next year a lot more to discuss coming, coming up and so many issues on your on your plates, it's it's really incredible.
[01:10:16.680]Matthew Schaefer: The amount of issues that are out there but but before I turn it over to Elspeth for a final word. I just did want to remind everybody to tomorrow 1pm Eastern is session on military space operations and the danger of cross domain analogies that will be moderated by
[01:10:35.130]Matthew Schaefer: Our co director of our program jack beard. He has a terrific panel featuring Chris Borg and Andrea Harrington, Dr. Heather Harrison Dennis and Professor David kaplow
[01:10:46.890]Matthew Schaefer: And that panel will be followed by a special talk on counter space threats by Brian Weeden the secure world foundation. So thank you all again and else Beth, I'll turn it over to you for final word.
[01:10:59.220]Elsbeth Magilton: Yes, in addition to the wonderful substantive sessions that we've had going on this week for space last week.
[01:11:04.140]Elsbeth Magilton: We've also had a series of students new professional session. So this afternoon, you can join us again for the space core foundation presentation. It's all about leveraging archives and collections and research.
[01:11:14.820]Elsbeth Magilton: So if you are a student or a new professional who is maybe not super familiar with international law research.
[01:11:20.460]Elsbeth Magilton: Or good avenues for space law research. This is definitely a great panel for you. We have an amazing collection of researchers and librarians.
[01:11:27.060]Elsbeth Magilton: To come and give you advice on that as well as another session tomorrow on mentorship sponsorship and building your professional community with me so
[01:11:35.160]Elsbeth Magilton: Go to our website. Those are still open to be signed up for. And we hope to see you then. And thank you all so much for being here. This was awesome. I had a great time.
[01:11:43.050]Jennifer Warren: Thank you very much.
[01:11:43.950]Ruth Pritchard-Kelly: Thank you. Pleasure.
[01:11:45.510]Elsbeth Magilton: Pleasure, thank you everyone. Have a good day.
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