NE Space Law Week - Artemis Accords: International Partner and Industry Cooperation and International Space Norms
Host | Moderator:
Matthew Schaefer — Founding Co-Director of the Space, Cyber, and Telecommunications Law Program and Haggart Work Professor of International Trade, Nebraska Law
Mike Gold — Acting Associate Administrator, Office of International and Interagency Affairs, NASA
Ken Hodgkins — President, International Space Enterprise Consultants, and Former Director for the Office Of Space and Advanced Technology, U.S. Department Of State
Diane Howard — General Counsel, Office of Space Commerce, U.S.
Department Of Commerce
Frans von der Dunk — Harvey and Susan Perlman Alumni and Othmer Professor of Space Law, Nebraska Law
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[00:00:05.100]Matthew Schaefer: Well good, good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to university Nebraska is 13th annual Washington DC space law.
[00:00:13.410]Matthew Schaefer: Conference. We do have a few folks sitting in in DC for this, but with coven. This has become Nebraska's virtual space Law Week.
[00:00:23.580]Matthew Schaefer: We have a great panel to discuss the Artemis accords today, but I wanted to start with a few thank yous. Thank you to our
[00:00:32.310]Matthew Schaefer: co sponsors the American branch of international law associations, specifically the spacewalk committee and the American Society of international law, specifically the space law interest group.
[00:00:43.890]Matthew Schaefer: Also want to say thank you to else Beth magilton our executive director here at the university Nebraska law College of Technology, security and space law.
[00:00:51.840]Matthew Schaefer: Initiatives and the Sondra Marquez Sanchez communications and events specialist at our new tech governance center for all their help and coordinating the technology in the in the zoom webinar and the conference week
[00:01:05.820]Matthew Schaefer: Well, today we focus on the Artemis Accord. Many of you have have heard of it.
[00:01:12.030]Matthew Schaefer: We have a all star lineup. Here we have Mike gold, the Acting Associate Administrator for international and Intergovernmental Affairs at NASA previously with Max are and and Bigelow Aerospace Mike previously served on the NASA Advisory Council before joining NASA itself and really
[00:01:32.280]Matthew Schaefer: Probably the key architect or one of the key architects behind the Artemis accords. We have Ken Hodgkins can spent over 30 years at the State Department on Space and Technology issues, including us, Director of the Office of space and advanced technology.
[00:01:53.130]Matthew Schaefer: In that role can served as a US representative to the UN Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer space.
[00:01:59.550]Matthew Schaefer: And was involved in all the major presidential policy reviews for for space policy. He is now a consultant for his own enterprise, the International Space enterprise consultants.
[00:02:13.620]Matthew Schaefer: We have Diane Howard chief counsel for the Office of space commerce at the US Department of Commerce.
[00:02:19.740]Matthew Schaefer: Diane is also a non resident scholar at UT Austin Strauss Center for International Security Studies and an adjunct professor at at school, blah and previously was at Embry riddle, where she developed
[00:02:33.150]Matthew Schaefer: An important space traffic management conference that occurred annually. We also have our own university Nebraska is Professor friends monitored on
[00:02:43.350]Matthew Schaefer: The Harvey and Susan Perlman alumni and author, professor of space law here at the University of Nebraska college blog Franz is also consulted.
[00:02:51.690]Matthew Schaefer: consults widely with foreign governments and international bodies on space law matters, and of course is author of a really the leading handbook on on space law.
[00:03:03.270]Matthew Schaefer: So terrific panel and we're going to start if you're trying to understand that a building or a proposed building, you want to talk to the architect and so we're going to start with Mike to give us five minutes of a background.
[00:03:19.050]Matthew Schaefer: Artemis Accords and also maybe update and when we might see some finalized bilateral Artemis record. So Mike, turn it over to you.
[00:03:29.820]Mike Gold: Now, thank you so much. Matt and just really appreciate what you and fronds, and everyone at university Nebraska law school are doing today with this panel and that you've done in the past.
[00:03:40.440]Mike Gold: So five minutes to describe the artist records. I hope everyone has a seat belt at home because strap in. We're going to go quickly here.
[00:03:48.090]Mike Gold: Although, let me begin in the past that I want to go back to the International Space Station which is governed by the Intergovernmental Agreement, the IgA
[00:03:58.230]Mike Gold: ISS has been a trailblazer, not only in terms of technology but legally with the IgA and we're going to be leveraging that IgA for gateway which will be the orbital outpost around the moon.
[00:04:11.190]Mike Gold: Whether you're around the moon around Earth IgA just makes a lot of sense in terms of leveraging the processes the boards, etc.
[00:04:19.170]Mike Gold: But as we move forward to the moon via Artemis and go down to the surface and eventually on to Mars.
[00:04:25.680]Mike Gold: You need a new legal framework for the amazing new opportunities that we're going to have. And let me say
[00:04:32.220]Mike Gold: We haven't even begun to understand all of the mysteries that we're going to encounter on the moon, we're
[00:04:38.040]Mike Gold: Not only going to answer the questions that we've got now. But what I'm most excited about is the questions we don't even know about.
[00:04:43.620]Mike Gold: And not more than a decade or so ago we thought the moon was bone dry and then recently discovered incredible volumes of water I so I'm very excited.
[00:04:52.410]Mike Gold: About the discoveries that will occur. And because of that, we need a legal framework that's as dynamic as exciting, you can take account.
[00:05:00.960]Mike Gold: Of this new era of exploration, hence the Artemis accords the Artemis accords are grounded in the Outer Space Treaty, we reinforce many aspects of the Outer Space Treaty, as well as other multilateral agreements.
[00:05:14.850]Mike Gold: And it implements aspects of the Outer Space Treaty as well so very much an homage and honoring the Outer Space Treaty and implementing it is well
[00:05:26.700]Mike Gold: Also, and taking a page from the Outer Space Treaty, the Artemis accords are a series of principles.
[00:05:32.820]Mike Gold: Given how little we actually know in the end about many of these operations and even the environment on the Moon and Mars.
[00:05:39.330]Mike Gold: We think it's important to be modest to be flexible, hence principles, rather than being too prescriptive.
[00:05:45.390]Mike Gold: And details can and will come later. So let me just quickly describe what the principles of the records are
[00:05:52.020]Mike Gold: Beginning with peaceful purposes that we want to see a separation between military and civil activities and nation should have their own civil space agencies.
[00:06:01.650]Mike Gold: So anything that we do under the Artemis program should be peaceful
[00:06:05.160]Mike Gold: And to be clear, the way we're giving some teeth to the Outer Space Treaty is any international partner that wants to join the Artemis program.
[00:06:12.420]Mike Gold: Will have to agree to abide by these principles in a previously with the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:06:17.460]Mike Gold: A country could drop out or a country may or may not abide by those principles, without any repercussions, at the very least. Now there's an incentive to follow the Outer Space Treaty, if you want to be a part of the Artemis program.
[00:06:30.270]Mike Gold: I would so in peaceful purposes, or at the very heart of the Outer Space Treaty and I are at the very heart of the argument scores as well.
[00:06:37.980]Mike Gold: Transparency, this is a theme, you'll see throughout the Artemis accords that if we want to avoid conflict, we have to be transparent and
[00:06:46.140]Mike Gold: Entities and countries need to say where they are, what they're doing.
[00:06:50.130]Mike Gold: And what their plans are in space. NASA has always done that almost probably to an extreme where you see the sausage making here in the US process and it's important for any partner is going to join us and Artemis journey. It's also be transparent.
[00:07:02.970]Mike Gold: Interoperability it's important not only for people to talk to each other, but for spacesuits spacecraft to be able to communicate.
[00:07:11.040]Mike Gold: While the Artemis accords or a government to government agreement, we want to try and create an environment that's conducive for the private sector.
[00:07:17.730]Mike Gold: And we believe, to the extent. There's interoperability, that will be very helpful to ensuring robust business environment as well as support emergency assistance and other principle of the records that we think it's the
[00:07:30.690]Mike Gold: Backbone of any responsible civil space activity that if there is an astronaut in distress you conduct rescue therefore under the Artemis cords. We're asking partners to
[00:07:40.320]Mike Gold: reinforce their support for the emergency assessment assistance rescue of astronauts agreement and other multilateral agreement that were citing and reinforcing in the courts.
[00:07:50.520]Mike Gold: And if your systems are interoperable, you're going to be able to conduct those rescue operations, much more safely much more effectively and much more quickly. So here you see
[00:07:59.850]Mike Gold: synergy between the principles of records registration of space objects and other very important principle.
[00:08:06.030]Mike Gold: If you're not a member of the registration convention. If you're going to support the Artemis program, we're going to ask you to become
[00:08:11.130]Mike Gold: A member of the registration convention we can't get to avoiding harmful interference or liability or any other issues if we don't have strong registration. So we think this one is
[00:08:22.350]Mike Gold: Particularly fundamental to everything else that comes afterwards release of scientific data. So this isn't in the Outer Space Treaty, per se, but we think is very much in the spirit of the Treaty.
[00:08:32.880]Mike Gold: that NASA has always adopted the norms of behavior that we publicly released our scientific data.
[00:08:38.280]Mike Gold: This ensures that the benefits of the records can be enjoyed or efficiency. The Ottomans program can be enjoyed by everyone in space and throughout the world.
[00:08:46.740]Mike Gold: Not just the US. It's our way of bringing the world along with us on this journey of Artemis, so for partners that join the army's program, we're going to ask them to publicly released their scientific data as well.
[00:08:57.030]Mike Gold: Protecting heritage and important principle we protect our artifacts and historic sites here on Earth. We need to do so in space.
[00:09:04.140]Mike Gold: Space resources. It's very simple. The principle in the records that you can extract and utilize resources that that is NOT an inherent violation of Article to national appropriation.
[00:09:14.910]Mike Gold: Basically, the common sense contention that you can enjoy the fruits of your labor and this is supported by the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:09:22.440]Mike Gold: We don't go beyond that, at this point, but we think that's an important contention for everyone to agree on, and we believe is widely accepted.
[00:09:31.200]Mike Gold: deconstruction of activities. This is one of the most important aspects of the items records and the Outer Space Treaty, here we are implementing
[00:09:39.540]Mike Gold: The obligation to prevent harmful interference. How do we do that we create a safety zone and this would just be a zone where in
[00:09:47.160]Mike Gold: A nation's activity could create harmful interference with someone else. The given example if you have a rover.
[00:09:53.580]Mike Gold: It's an area where the rover would operate or if there was some sort of problematic issue we're debris might hit and within that zone.
[00:10:01.050]Mike Gold: The country would have the responsibility for notifying relative to where you're operating and then coordinating if another party is entering that area. That's the best way we see to implement
[00:10:12.450]Mike Gold: This avoiding conflict and avoiding harmful interference again implementing the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:10:18.330]Mike Gold: But again, we're open to other ideas. If other nations, you know, have ways of doing that, we think this was a good concept solution and finally orbital debris.
[00:10:25.830]Mike Gold: We need to do better in space that we have here on Earth. So if you're going to join the Artemis program, we're going to ask countries to be responsible.
[00:10:33.030]Mike Gold: When it comes to debris have plans for passive ation so that we preserve an environment that is conducive for both public and private sector activities.
[00:10:41.850]Mike Gold: Again, a couple of points on the Accords, while the activities will be bilateral. So in the end, the cords are fundamentally partnerships for NASA to work with other nations in support of arguments.
[00:10:54.060]Mike Gold: That is inherently a bilateral activity. However, the principles are multilateral that everyone who joins the of course will all agree to the same principles. So there's a strong multi lateral aspect there.
[00:11:07.020]Mike Gold: As well as the fact that the vast majority of the courts are based on existing multilateral treaties and agreements so
[00:11:13.710]Mike Gold: This isn't just necessarily exclusively a bilateral activity there certainly is that aspect.
[00:11:18.660]Mike Gold: But there is a multi country or multi lateral aspect when it comes to the principles of the courts which everyone will agree with. And we're being very careful.
[00:11:25.980]Mike Gold: In conjunction with our international partners to make the courts as inclusive as possible.
[00:11:30.690]Mike Gold: That while again this is being done for partnerships for the Artemis program we're writing these principles in such a fashion that any responsible spacefaring nation should be able to abide by the courts.
[00:11:41.520]Mike Gold: And frankly already are obligated for most of these obligations if you're a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:11:47.790]Mike Gold: What I like about the Accords, is that they're going to be very broad in terms of who can join
[00:11:52.950]Mike Gold: I mentioned the IgA for the International Space Station. While that's a terrific document. The challenge is bringing new countries into
[00:11:59.250]Mike Gold: The IgA and the ISS, which is very difficult with Artemis Accords, we will be able to support the broadest and most diverse international human space exploration coalition in history.
[00:12:11.310]Mike Gold: And that's why I'm so excited about not only the work with our traditional partners, but new emerging space agencies like United Arab Emirates and Australia and
[00:12:19.050]Mike Gold: Luxembourg and many others who are just now taking those first tentative but exciting steps into space so that the benefits can be seen through all we can have a much broader coalition that we even have on the ISS. And finally, let me end with
[00:12:33.780]Mike Gold: The fundamental aspect of the core to the heart is preventing conflict that we need to stand together for transparent safe activities. So we can avoid confusion, avoid problems.
[00:12:45.570]Mike Gold: An ounce of prevention now will prevent a pound of trouble in the future. We're going these activities are happening.
[00:12:52.290]Mike Gold: We need to be public relative to the principles that we're going to stand by to lean into the Outer Space Treaty and other multilateral obligations.
[00:13:01.080]Mike Gold: To ensure that we can have a peaceful future in space that as a science fiction fan. I like to say is more Star Trek and less Star Wars.
[00:13:09.540]Mike Gold: Relative to your final question, Matt about timing, forgive me for being succinct. But let me just say soon. Stay tuned. Soon, and you'll be getting more news.
[00:13:19.770]Mike Gold: Unfortunately, I can't say more. We are in negotiations with a series of international partners.
[00:13:25.860]Mike Gold: By the way, the partners have done a phenomenal job in terms of our interaction and developing the Accords. It's amazing when you live with a document what you miss
[00:13:35.130]Mike Gold: And, you know, we've been working with the record so much. It's incredible what the international partners have brought but that's the advantage of diversity.
[00:13:42.840]Mike Gold: Then we've got so many different countries involved throughout the world so many different cultures they see things that we would otherwise miss and it's a better document for all of us is, we're all going to be stronger together.
[00:13:54.870]Matthew Schaefer: But Mike. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. And I think the records have been met with a great deal of enthusiasm, but like every initiative. There's also
[00:14:04.290]Matthew Schaefer: criticisms that have been lodged in. I thought it was important today to really hone in on those sometimes
[00:14:09.930]Matthew Schaefer: criticisms are put out there and we never get into any depth to see if there's any they are there and I i really want this panel.
[00:14:17.550]Matthew Schaefer: To to turn to some some possible criticisms that were out there and see if there's any there there. One of the first ones is on the modality and Mike, you've already sort of address this somewhat.
[00:14:29.460]Matthew Schaefer: A you know there's been criticisms, hey, this has been done on a bilateral basis outer Outer Space norms.
[00:14:36.900]Matthew Schaefer: Can only be done on a multilateral basis or are best done on a multilateral basis. And I think you've made the case that the principles part of this.
[00:14:44.790]Matthew Schaefer: Is, in fact, at least plural lateral multilateral will apply to all the all the partners and is really reinforcing the OSD
[00:14:52.260]Matthew Schaefer: But I thought we turn maybe can to you, you first and then Franz and Diane might feel free to jump in. But what is there any real something wrong here to do this on a on a bilateral basis, given that there needs to be cooperation, going to the moon anyway.
[00:15:10.440]Ken Hodgkins: Oh yeah. Thank you Matt and I think this is really, really great panel.
[00:15:15.540]Ken Hodgkins: Because the, the artist Artemis accords. I was involved in it right up until I left the State Department back in March and we had a big debate about how versus bilateral but
[00:15:27.720]Ken Hodgkins: What we have here with the Artemis accords is, in my view, a continuum of what we've been looking at in terms of space law where we had the Treaties, we had principles and now we're looking at state practice.
[00:15:40.740]Ken Hodgkins: And that's that is a hugely, hugely important part of this, which is what our state's doing in space in compliance with the outer space treaties, but moving the space enterprise forward and the Artemis accords.
[00:15:55.560]Ken Hodgkins: Actually do that because what what has been proposed. Here is a model a model of how you go to the moon to Mars. What are the things that need to be taken into account.
[00:16:09.690]Ken Hodgkins: Transparency interoperability resiliency sustainable development because there will be spin offs from whatever we do on the moon and to
[00:16:22.080]Ken Hodgkins: And to pick one form versus another. I don't think is really is all that helpful I think what what's important is put out a model.
[00:16:31.020]Ken Hodgkins: For people to critique, get the information back and see how can we adjust that because the, the, ultimately, it comes down to stay practice in compliance with your authorization supervision jurisdiction and control.
[00:16:48.450]Ken Hodgkins: Of your non governmental as well as governmental activities. And I think that's really the key here. And that's why the Artemis accords is a really, really interesting.
[00:17:01.080]Ken Hodgkins: Not only intellectual but a very practical exercise which is setting kind of the ground rules for what are the basic values that we all want to pursue going beyond low Earth orbit.
[00:17:15.450]Mike Gold: Right from dying.
[00:17:18.060]Mike Gold: Yeah, man. I could maybe just jump in real quick there and it's so great to hear can, because again, he's been so important, not just we are the chords, but everything, bringing the private sector, the state. So congratulations again.
[00:17:28.830]Mike Gold: But the question isn't multilateral or bilateral it's multilateral and bilateral
[00:17:34.500]Mike Gold: That in terms of bilateral when we're partnering with a specific country. I mean that's inherently bilateral
[00:17:40.080]Mike Gold: However, the principles are plural, like you said multilateral and ultimately these issues need to be addressed in a multilateral forum like the Copa Louis
[00:17:50.040]Mike Gold: Or other international forum with Artemis accords do was operationalize implement aspects of the Outer Space Treaty and reinforce our commitment.
[00:17:58.680]Mike Gold: To other multilateral agreements and then we take those experiences to cope with and other forums.
[00:18:04.260]Mike Gold: Where there might be a future agreement on space resources or a future agreement on how to protect space heritage.
[00:18:10.860]Mike Gold: So again, Beware of false dichotomies. It's not either or. It's really the best both and that's what we have with the Artemis accords is the best of both worlds. Sorry, France, good.
[00:18:20.280]Frans von der Dunk: No problem. Well, of course it's hard for me to disagree with anything. Mike and can say, so I will not really try to do that.
[00:18:29.880]Frans von der Dunk: It reminds me very much of how after the Second World War, civil aviation was built up, which was started by a bilateral between in and says, you know, kingdom with the Bermuda.
[00:18:40.110]Frans von der Dunk: Of court, which served as the baseline and the principles were quickly copied all over the place.
[00:18:45.270]Frans von der Dunk: That is something that I think will possibly happen here as well. And of course, aviation and space law are not exactly comparable. There are a lot of differences. So we should be
[00:18:55.020]Frans von der Dunk: wary about simply saying okay then for the next four years. We don't have to worry about anything, everything will go by itself until we have a room us to set of a course for years down the road.
[00:19:07.500]Frans von der Dunk: What what what what I want to just to raise by way of a
[00:19:13.200]Frans von der Dunk: warning sign is that, of course, first of all, we should realize that this happens in what you can call a legal vacuum because apart from the argument supports.
[00:19:22.260]Frans von der Dunk: There is not much there yet. There's a couple of general principles of the Outer Space Treaty liability convention or resist registration convention and we are certainly in need.
[00:19:31.410]Frans von der Dunk: As Mike explained to to make those more dense more legally substantial if you really want to move ahead. And then, in the absence of any likelihood of getting a real international treaty.
[00:19:44.130]Frans von der Dunk: Off the ground. This is certainly the best substitute the only warning sign I want to raise is that that's always the case with whether you call it bilateral or multilateral
[00:19:52.710]Frans von der Dunk: It raises the possible the possible danger of fragmentation in aviation, it has worked that way for a long time, but
[00:20:01.410]Frans von der Dunk: For example, the, the, the, the fact that you have general principle helps also in sort of capturing that and then hopefully in the future.
[00:20:09.780]Frans von der Dunk: It becomes more dense estate practice builds up to a more uniform implication of those principles of the there's always a risk of those virgins and fragmentation that one accord one bilateral treaty with Italy doesn't exactly
[00:20:22.470]Frans von der Dunk: One on one map how it is implemented with with Japan.
[00:20:26.940]Frans von der Dunk: To just call two nations which are already engaged with Artemis. Now, in this context, of course, NASA is the is the spider in the web. If you allow me
[00:20:35.820]Frans von der Dunk: Can make sure that that doesn't happen. But there are things going on as well. And for example, Japan is also engaged in bilateral agreements with Luxembourg on on on space mining space resource utilization. I'm not privy to the details are offered
[00:20:50.160]Frans von der Dunk: Is there a possibility that Japan has signed up to slightly different forms of principles or obligations. Again, I'm not saying it is there already. But that's something that we should at least keep an eye on that. That's all the criticism that I can come up with right now. Sorry, Mike.
[00:21:06.840]Diane Howard: No.
[00:21:07.590]Matthew Schaefer: No. Oh.
[00:21:10.860]Mike Gold: Well, sorry. So no, I think fans, by the way, you're exactly right that we need to avoid fragmentation. And again, I wish I could share with you the draft texts that we have, but we are absolutely addressing that issue.
[00:21:25.710]Mike Gold: We will make certain that a Japan and in Italy, for example, are on the same page, relative to these principles. Exactly. So
[00:21:35.160]Mike Gold: But I think as we look at countries that aren't supporting the Artemis program. It's even more important there that we prevent fragmentation that we wrote these and inclusive fashion. So what we did fronds to try and
[00:21:48.840]Mike Gold: Identify and work with your very good point is to draft the chords in such a fashion that even if you weren't joining them.
[00:21:56.730]Mike Gold: And again, as long as you're a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty that you could, and probably should already be abiding by all of those principles.
[00:22:05.010]Mike Gold: And that will be going to cope with and other international forums to drive the density that you're asking for for on so we
[00:22:12.630]Mike Gold: Try to make the Accords, one of unity to bring everyone together and to provide that push or direction in future multilateral
[00:22:22.170]Mike Gold: settings that again can unite the world globally around these principles and I think your aviation example, like you say, we have to be cautious, but is very apt that we begin
[00:22:34.080]Mike Gold: With this group that says this is how we're implementing the Outer Space Treaty and then it influences the world in a positive direction, sorry. Go ahead. No.
[00:22:41.970]Diane Howard: Problem at all. So I agree with everybody. I even even
[00:22:46.530]Diane Howard: The concerns of Thrones has voice. I want to make the point that my laterals. Not only do they exist, but they've been utilized, particularly in the space context for a long, long time, this isn't new.
[00:22:58.650]Diane Howard: And in fact, there was there's been work at the legal subcommittee at copious in the last few years to examine some of the different mechanisms, other than multilateral
[00:23:09.960]Diane Howard: Instruments. So this, again, not new. However, it's in a new context and it's in a context that's a little bit controversial because it's not quite subtle. So I just want to make the
[00:23:21.690]Diane Howard: Point that some of what you refer to Matt might not be criticism, per se, but it might be questions or inquiries, or maybe misinterpretations. And so this is really an opportunity for us to
[00:23:37.020]Diane Howard: Lean forward to be role models and to answer those questions and to help settle that which is unsettled because
[00:23:45.270]Diane Howard: It's based on practice state practice and ultimately it will be some private practice.
[00:23:51.390]Diane Howard: And and that practice that's not theory, but that practice will help sort out some of the fragmentation.
[00:23:58.230]Diane Howard: This is one, one of the reasons why I really love the fact that you want to be part of Artemis, you need to agree to this. And I think that's going to help sort out some of that fragmentation because
[00:24:07.890]Diane Howard: So many countries do want to be part of Artemis and
[00:24:11.340]Diane Howard: This is another wonderful example of how you can be inclusive included into an initiative that you can't do on your own. This is one of the things that we learn from ISS.
[00:24:22.140]Diane Howard: Complex complicated and costly missions, but together. Lots of things can be accomplished. And I think part of what can be accomplished is not just the mission.
[00:24:30.660]Diane Howard: And not just the science, but also the helping you know refine these practices so that it will help inform the norms process going forward. Thank you. Yeah.
[00:24:40.710]Matthew Schaefer: So thank you for that. I think it's important point that it's creating an incentive to actually increase OS T compliance and I must say, as somebody who also works in the international trade arena.
[00:24:52.710]Matthew Schaefer: In international trade bilateral Florida lateral for are used in addition to multilateral to cure gaps in the multilateral for it, and I must say even here in the space context.
[00:25:03.390]Matthew Schaefer: The bilateral are sticking much more closely to the OSD and really just putting flesh on OS T bone so i i think this is this is something that
[00:25:13.230]Matthew Schaefer: Is important to realize that really in the space field. They're even sticking very closely in the bilateral negotiations to what's in the existing multilateral agreement.
[00:25:25.290]Ken Hodgkins: So, Matt. Matt, can I just add one thing. I mean, Diane just touched on it briefly about the commercial side. So I think the, the other part of what needs to be discussed.
[00:25:39.240]Ken Hodgkins: Is the is the role of the the commercial sector in the overall architecture beyond going beyond low Earth orbit.
[00:25:47.880]Ken Hodgkins: And we have many companies who have ambitions to go to the moon to go to Mars for their own for their own purposes, but they have to have buy in to the Artemis accords. They have to have buy in to the overall
[00:26:03.960]Ken Hodgkins: To the overall vision. And of course, governments do have to authorize and supervise the activities of the private sector, but from my standpoint, we need to move to a different
[00:26:15.900]Ken Hodgkins: We need to move to a different paradigm. And I call it kind of the coalition of like minded, which is involving civil society writ large, not just
[00:26:25.620]Ken Hodgkins: Big companies but small companies having an understanding
[00:26:29.880]Ken Hodgkins: Of what the government governments are doing having input back into what what the, the government decision making is going to be, because we have all these small companies.
[00:26:41.670]Ken Hodgkins: Who are investing a lot of money they need to understand in a transparent and predictable way what our governments are doing
[00:26:49.890]Ken Hodgkins: And I think that the Artemis accords provide that that baseline. But then on the other hand, we can't leave this just to the government's themselves because
[00:27:02.550]Ken Hodgkins: Having worked in the government for 40 years we're always at least 10 steps behind what's happening outside the government. And so I think that
[00:27:13.020]Ken Hodgkins: As part as as we move forward. We need to look at this whole notion of how do we create this kind of, as I say, a coalition of like minded.
[00:27:22.770]Ken Hodgkins: That doesn't necessarily have to be run by governments, but have some kind of way of civil society writ large, whether they're spacefaring and on spacefaring
[00:27:35.010]Ken Hodgkins: Have some sort of way of providing input back to the decision makers as as we as we move forward and I from from my standpoint, I think that's kind of a fascinating.
[00:27:49.800]Ken Hodgkins: nexus between the, you know, government policy making private law and how all those things intersect, because we need
[00:28:02.010]Ken Hodgkins: More private investment and doing all the things that we hope to do and and that that would be the other part of the equation that I think would be really interesting to look at.
[00:28:15.690]Mike Gold: And if I can just echo Ken's point real quick.
[00:28:19.440]Mike Gold: It's a challenge that we've got with the existing international infrastructure.
[00:28:24.150]Mike Gold: That there's no seat at Cobo Lewis for the private sector that most of what was set up was structured to support government activities.
[00:28:33.480]Mike Gold: Now I do take issue strongly with one thing can said, which is a bureaucrat, he was buying can Hodgkin's is always 10 steps ahead of us and
[00:28:41.400]Mike Gold: I really appreciated can when I was chair of the comp stack or chair of the knack that can always bend over backwards to ensure that private sector interface the extent we could. I think the US delegation was probably the only one to have private sector.
[00:28:55.470]Mike Gold: Representatives.
[00:28:56.790]Mike Gold: In their group. And that's great, but I hope that we don't have to always depend upon good civil servants like Ken
[00:29:04.050]Mike Gold: And we can create this paradigm that Ken's describing where we get the private sector at the table.
[00:29:09.240]Mike Gold: And this is not to say that you went and cope with, you know, our could be the lead and they're extremely important. We need to continue to work with them.
[00:29:15.600]Mike Gold: But I've also really liked the way that, for example, the Hague International Space resources governance working group name rolls off the tongue.
[00:29:22.560]Mike Gold: Functioned where we brought both government and private sector together, came up with ideas that then is being fed into the Coppola and I think that's a terrific model for the future. Right.
[00:29:33.840]Matthew Schaefer: Well, I wanted to dig into a few of the specific principles and we can bunch these together in two groups. So the first group and
[00:29:42.990]Matthew Schaefer: And Ken and Mike's discussion here in the commercial is a nice segue to it. So one principle that Mike mentioned was release of scientific data.
[00:29:51.960]Matthew Schaefer: And another one. Mike mentioned was on the interoperability front and there have been raised a few concerns that hey, how do these principles.
[00:30:01.950]Matthew Schaefer: Work when it comes to commercial or private sector actors and Mike in previous sessions has I think responded well to this to say this, these really buying the partners don't necessarily bind
[00:30:15.420]Matthew Schaefer: The commercial actors. But with that said, commercial actors are going to be involved in Artemis, so there might be a commercial actor that's concerned on an interoperability criteria that
[00:30:26.460]Matthew Schaefer: Limits innovation on a on a particular technology unreleased a scientific data commercial entities might be concerned with
[00:30:35.820]Matthew Schaefer: Whether that's requiring them to give away confidential or trade secret information. So I thought it'd be important to have a discussion on these two principles release of scientific data interoperability as they might impact commercial partners involved in Artemis Diane
[00:30:53.520]Diane Howard: I could just jump in on the interoperability from, from the standpoint of the private sector, and I won't take long. However, I will say that in the US, we require that the industry or the commercial sector.
[00:31:06.330]Diane Howard: Participate in the creation of standards and our standards development in the US is very
[00:31:13.200]Diane Howard: Very active in informing the international standards and and there is great benefit to having standards it they're not so much limiting as they are.
[00:31:23.700]Diane Howard: Empowering they they open up the world just because there are standards that are chosen doesn't mean that there's only one set of standards of chosen seldom or is it is it
[00:31:33.120]Diane Howard: You know, just limited to this one strict standard and so prescriptive. It's more that there is a few of them a choice. And again, industry has a profound
[00:31:43.530]Diane Howard: Participatory role in the development of those standards. And I say that because I work on this in my office and we're very, very active in
[00:31:50.820]Diane Howard: In helping the standards development organizations know what each other is doing right now because we have a whole ecosystem in the space sector.
[00:31:59.880]Diane Howard: And you have aspects that don't necessarily know what they're doing, getting them to speak the same language. If you're using
[00:32:06.300]Diane Howard: A standard for your data messaging making, making sure that all aspects of admission are using the same kind of a standard like what CC
[00:32:14.520]Diane Howard: Sts users and and so these are, these are the standards, the use of these standards is something that gives predictability and reliability and and the
[00:32:24.750]Diane Howard: The, the ability to replicate something, time and time again, which is very, very freeing and empowering to to industry. So I think that that's a positive way to look at it. I will leave discussion about the scientific
[00:32:35.820]Diane Howard: Sharing of scientific information to my colleagues, but I will say this, sharing scientific data is not the same thing as giving away intellectual property. And I think there is a legal distinction between the two.
[00:32:48.510]Mike Gold: Yeah, I really think you know that Diane hit both these points really well. Let me begin with interoperability is Diane's describing
[00:32:56.700]Mike Gold: That can be enabling for the private sector that that's how you build a dynamic business environment that we want to see on the Moon and Mars.
[00:33:05.850]Mike Gold: But let me also note that these are principles and there's a reason that we went forward with principles, rather than being prescriptive and it's because of exactly the issue that you raise Matt that we didn't want to be prescriptive and drop anything that was draconian
[00:33:19.830]Mike Gold: That would hurt innovation instead just as Diane described. We want to create environment that enables business one that has that balance with innovation and that's why this is a principle of interoperability.
[00:33:33.510]Mike Gold: Then relative to the disclosure of scientific data. This is something that NASA does already and has always done
[00:33:40.890]Mike Gold: We believe that's a beneficial norm of behavior for a government operating on taxpayer money to share that data broadly with the entire world.
[00:33:49.890]Mike Gold: You know, unfortunately, there are many countries that can't afford the billions of dollars to go to space.
[00:33:55.110]Mike Gold: But this way for anyone with an internet connection, they can enjoy that journey to and get that data and we're very interested in seeing that happen here in the US to again take the whole world with us on Artemis, but
[00:34:09.780]Mike Gold: Again, probably what 10 months out of the private sector. So we were very cognizant of those issues that even though these are government. Government agreements.
[00:34:17.880]Mike Gold: Let me just be very clear that if you're a private sector company taking a private sector activity.
[00:34:23.010]Mike Gold: There's no onus upon you to share scientific data or any other data. As a matter of fact, when texts of the records are released.
[00:34:31.440]Mike Gold: You'll see that that we were even cautious for private sector partners to ensure that weather data is proprietary or export controls.
[00:34:39.120]Mike Gold: That to is protected, which is exactly the case in terms of how NASA operates now.
[00:34:45.210]Mike Gold: And then finally, let me just say that it is a little difficult to have conversations like this without the text of the Accords out
[00:34:51.510]Mike Gold: So I would ask for people not to jump to conclusions one or the other, until they see the text because trust me, you know, we thought a lot about all these issues and
[00:35:02.370]Mike Gold: As the advertisement goes, I think you're gonna like what you see, I would even guarantee it. So we're very much looking forward to text, the records coming out.
[00:35:10.830]Mike Gold: The reason that we move forward with the principles early is, you know, we wanted to stand by our principle of transparency.
[00:35:17.100]Mike Gold: That you can't release the text because we're still in negotiations with the partners, out of respect to them because there's such an important piece of this
[00:35:24.210]Mike Gold: But we did want to say the general direction that we're trying to head to be transparent with what's going to be in the courts and hence the release of the principles.
[00:35:32.220]Mike Gold: Although asked that we not have, you know, jumping to conclusions, one way or the other, relative to the texts that will address many of these issues, right.
[00:35:39.750]Matthew Schaefer: Well, there's another series of principles. I thought we could could
[00:35:43.590]Ken Hodgkins: Could I
[00:35:45.600]Ken Hodgkins: Can I just add one other one other principle. It's not reflected in the in the courts.
[00:35:51.690]Ken Hodgkins: Which I do think is, is important, not necessarily for the courts and snow criticism, but the whole notion of resiliency.
[00:35:59.430]Ken Hodgkins: And resiliency is is beyond is beyond interoperability. If you have interoperability, then you can translate that into
[00:36:08.190]Ken Hodgkins: Resiliency in terms of having systems that you can rely on later on. They're all they're all interconnected. We did that through the International
[00:36:17.970]Ken Hodgkins: Committee on gold global navigation satellite systems where we not only did we have interoperability in the sense of, we had common signals. But we had the resiliency. That is
[00:36:30.210]Ken Hodgkins: If a GPS satellite goes down a bay doe satellite can can fill in seamlessly. And I think that, you know, at some point, again, as, as this matures the whole notion of resiliency also will have to be
[00:36:45.870]Ken Hodgkins: Somehow taken into account, again, Mike, I'm not, I'm not criticizing the, the courts at all. But I do think that interoperability.
[00:36:55.470]Ken Hodgkins: And that other general concept of resiliency is is something that really needs to be looked at. And again, that would be part of the private sector also being there and, you know, how do we make things not only interoperable but resilient as well.
[00:37:15.210]Frans von der Dunk: If you allow me to throw one final bone into the arena here. It's interesting to note that if you think about commercial confidential.
[00:37:24.540]Frans von der Dunk: Valuable information that we also see some trends towards
[00:37:28.530]Frans von der Dunk: Companies sharing data open resource data and things like that.
[00:37:33.240]Frans von der Dunk: Because apparently this year and ultimate benefit there you know that may have to do with the fact that they are then the leading once everybody else falls in line, which means that they're informally setting the standards.
[00:37:43.680]Frans von der Dunk: So it might be a matter of a balance to incentivize not obliged to incentivize those private sector and actors.
[00:37:52.230]Frans von der Dunk: To think carefully about what they really want to keep commercially confidential and what they can actually use or benefit from more if they share it with the rest of the world even apart from quid pro quo arrangement that if you give something you can ask something back as well. Right.
[00:38:09.120]Matthew Schaefer: So I
[00:38:09.960]Diane Howard: Just want to make one point, we're actually thinking about that in the context of space situational awareness and spacecraft management right now.
[00:38:17.340]Diane Howard: And because there are certainly benefits that accrue when owner operators share their ephemeral data and so finding a way to kind of
[00:38:26.070]Diane Howard: reframe this question about proprietary information. So I like to talk about it in terms of mutually assured benefit as opposed to what we used to talk about back in the day. So I think those are very, very good point. Thank you.
[00:38:39.360]Matthew Schaefer: Great, well the the other three principles we could bunch together. And these aren't so much where you've heard sort of concerns from the commercial. In fact, commercial love some of these principles, but the concerns of more come from some
[00:38:55.230]Matthew Schaefer: Foreign countries or or from some international quarters, but certainly not all. And it's the rights and extracted resources which has been now enshrined in in US law and some other nations laws and it's long standing us a policy, the notion of safety zones.
[00:39:14.490]Matthew Schaefer: Which again, have drawn criticism I think Mike is responded to this this criticism, well, but maybe we'll
[00:39:22.920]Matthew Schaefer: Discuss it more as well that they're not keep out zones. They're really principles of it's a transparency zone to ensure that Article nine of the OS t is implemented.
[00:39:33.270]Matthew Schaefer: And the final one is heritage sites. So I think these are the ones where you tend to find international reaction rights and extracted resources safety zones.
[00:39:42.540]Matthew Schaefer: And Heritage Site protection, maybe we can start with Franz and Ken on the international reaction and then go to Mike and Diane sort of how the how the US is, you know, responding to those concerns are making clear that that that there's not much to worry about their brands.
[00:40:00.960]Frans von der Dunk: I will live on myself to the extracted resources thing because I think that's the most sexy part of this whole triad of questions.
[00:40:07.950]Frans von der Dunk: And I'm a little bit astonished actually at how fast things seem to be moving in the international arena.
[00:40:14.850]Frans von der Dunk: To to agreeing that the old idea. Well, this should be an international regime, or even a heavy international regime are discarded as we speak.
[00:40:24.600]Frans von der Dunk: I've already set two or three years ago, the China was the, you know, the big elephant in the room.
[00:40:31.020]Frans von der Dunk: Probably from political perspective interested in siding with the Russians and trying to do to throw everything at the US, which they can, but they kept silent and then are talking together with Luxembourg, guys.
[00:40:41.910]Frans von der Dunk: On on how to work out, you know, a corporate mutually beneficial corporation in the exploitation of mineral resources.
[00:40:51.360]Frans von der Dunk: I even understood and i i'm still investigating the details, but that even Russia has
[00:40:57.930]Frans von der Dunk: Tried to get Luxembourg to agree on certain bilateral negotiations and I have a bit of an idea that they are greatly more on their own, as we speak, and that other countries are converging around these notions, as long as we
[00:41:13.440]Frans von der Dunk: Make sure that everyone sticks to international law. Plus, perhaps a little bit of additional law which we still need to make out about what exactly is harmful interference.
[00:41:24.180]Frans von der Dunk: How far do safety zones, go to them after all touch upon a second issue liability issues as well as that is, OK, we should we should not be too, too.
[00:41:34.740]Frans von der Dunk: Too, too constraining about that and and and well the sort of the icing on the cake was, of course, there are a couple of days ago.
[00:41:43.710]Frans von der Dunk: The, the Russians announced that Phoenix was their planet. Well, what are we talking about is that national appropriation or not. I mean,
[00:41:51.450]Frans von der Dunk: So they're all over the place in their arguments, which to me tells that they don't really feel secure anymore in sticking to the position that they were in four years ago. I'm saying no. This is us domination in outer space all over again.
[00:42:09.600]Ken Hodgkins: So yeah, so the issue of the mental extraction and
[00:42:16.110]Ken Hodgkins: And how it's how it's handled. I mean, it's an interesting dynamic because you know we've always asserted yes you can extract
[00:42:26.130]Ken Hodgkins: minerals from from other celestial bodies and therefore there's nothing, there's nothing really wrong now.
[00:42:34.140]Ken Hodgkins: When particular companies came into the state department and said, hey, we're gonna we're just going to go to a celestial body and bring stuff back
[00:42:44.130]Ken Hodgkins: And we don't care what the world thinks about my point was, OK, that's fine as long as you leave the US and you come straight back into the US but if you business plan.
[00:42:54.480]Ken Hodgkins: In anticipate anticipated, you're going to be selling it internationally. What you don't want is
[00:43:01.140]Ken Hodgkins: Extracting something at great cost then sending it to country X and it's confiscated the border, because they say well you did this in violation of the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:43:12.690]Ken Hodgkins: So what I was always arguing is that we have to again have this coalition like minded that yes, these kinds of things make sense. Second part of it is
[00:43:25.290]Ken Hodgkins: And this is for for your, your, your students if if you want to get into space law. The last thing you want to do is be legal counsel for a company
[00:43:36.270]Ken Hodgkins: Who wants to extract minerals and you say, no, you can't do it because, in violation of Article two of the Outer Space Treaty, guess what, you're not going to have much of a job. So you have to look at what what
[00:43:50.070]Ken Hodgkins: How you make this work not only domestically but also internationally to ensure that these business plans for the extraction of of resources works and you can operate trans nationally and that is
[00:44:08.730]Ken Hodgkins: A political issue foremost. And then secondly, it would be a legal issue. And that's why, again, the Artemis courts kind of bring that out to the forefront.
[00:44:20.670]Ken Hodgkins: And to be honest, the Russians, the Chinese they see that that unless they get into the game. They're going to be left out.
[00:44:29.700]Ken Hodgkins: And no one's going to care that they sit there and complain that well this is just some kind of of thing that's contrary to the Outer Space Treaty, no. No one I mean to be honest. No one's going to care if there's money to be made.
[00:44:44.520]Matthew Schaefer: Like
[00:44:46.800]Mike Gold: So relative to the Artemis accord specifically on space resources, let me say it represents common ground. What can we all agree on.
[00:44:57.630]Mike Gold: That you can extract and utilize resources that you can enjoy the benefits of your labor. It's a modest step forward, but we think an important one.
[00:45:07.500]Mike Gold: That is in sync completely with the Outer Space Treaty in general norms of behavior. Unfortunately, when it comes to international development, you know, steps need to be modest
[00:45:19.080]Mike Gold: And that's why, again, it's important, but it's also important for people to understand what's actually in the Accords and this is where the disadvantage because you haven't seen the text.
[00:45:29.400]Mike Gold: But again, let me assure you that what's in the Accords, is that you can extract and utilize
[00:45:33.480]Mike Gold: You can enjoy the fruits of your fruits of your labor. And I don't think that should or is controversial. Certainly not domestically, where it's been a resolve the issue for very long.
[00:45:42.240]Mike Gold: And I don't believe internationally as well. Again, it's an example of us with the Accords trying to unify rather than separate per what Franz said previously,
[00:45:52.230]Mike Gold: In regards to safety zones and Matt, you made this point yourself. These are not exclusionary zones. These are not stay out zones.
[00:46:00.720]Mike Gold: If there was something like that. Sure, there would be a reason for criticism or fear.
[00:46:05.640]Mike Gold: But I believe that anyone who objects to what's in the Artemis course relative deconstruction of activities.
[00:46:12.000]Mike Gold: Is doing so either maliciously or out of ignorance, because again, you haven't seen the text.
[00:46:18.000]Mike Gold: But let me reassure you and everyone who's watching is that these are safety zones where, again, the requirement is to notify and to coordinate
[00:46:27.510]Mike Gold: That literally implements the existing obligation to avoid harmful interference under the Outer Space Treaty and no way
[00:46:35.070]Mike Gold: Does it interfere with free use or being able to access an area on a celestial body, but what it does do is provided to create safety.
[00:46:44.160]Mike Gold: And transparency to again achieve the ultimate goal of the records which is prevent conflict and then relative to space heritage.
[00:46:54.150]Mike Gold: This is again a topic where there needs to be, I think, a broader multilateral conversation because the Accords are beginning, not an ending to these discussions.
[00:47:05.100]Mike Gold: That by raising issues like space resources space heritage, etc. We hope or operationalize experience will help inform
[00:47:12.180]Mike Gold: Discussions that un cope with us and elsewhere and space heritage is a good example. So if we've got a partner and we're working on a rover together.
[00:47:20.040]Mike Gold: And we avoid a human spaceflight historical artifact or a robotic historic artifact and we do so by 50 yards, then we can come to a conversation and UN cope with and say,
[00:47:31.440]Mike Gold: This is what we did and then maybe that helps inform the dialogue in the future. Again, the accord spring future multilateral discussion and helping to unify the world.
[00:47:43.470]Mike Gold: On these important principles which is frauds and other said we need more density in depth in quickly to prevent conflict in the future.
[00:47:50.940]Matthew Schaefer: I am
[00:47:52.200]Diane Howard: Yeah, I just have a couple of points with regard to and I again concur with all of my colleagues on the panel with regard to
[00:48:01.500]Diane Howard: The safety zones and also the heritage sites. I think that
[00:48:05.040]Diane Howard: Article nine implementation is what we're seeing here. I think this is a perfect example of what do regard looks like put in another context.
[00:48:13.740]Diane Howard: And. And so I do think it's the starting point for decisions as we work out what does that mean i mean that's that's you know that you have your
[00:48:20.790]Diane Howard: Your duty to notify and your and your duty to coordinate. It's all enshrine in Article nine, so. So really, we're seeing just a sort of a flushing out of what this rather high level laundry list of
[00:48:32.610]Diane Howard: Do's and Don'ts in Article nine, what it looks like in the pragmatic and practical operations on the moon.
[00:48:40.440]Diane Howard: And with regard to the resource utilization. I want to just touch upon another NASA initiative that I think is going to help that conversation internationally and that's the request for quotations that was announced several weeks ago.
[00:48:54.390]Diane Howard: And I think that, which is this is where NASA is is saying, well, we'll, we'll buy your regolith commercial sector and it and it's not limited to us.
[00:49:02.880]Diane Howard: commercial entities. So I think this is an excellent example to kind of
[00:49:07.920]Diane Howard: debunk and demystify that fear factor that seems to be lessening for sure, but might still have some residual impact in some places to show that doing these these activities.
[00:49:22.680]Diane Howard: Need not have their benign activities and this is how it's done. Again, it's an opportunity to be a role model over
[00:49:34.890]Frans von der Dunk: We can't hear you, man.
[00:49:37.800]Matthew Schaefer: We're gonna turn to audience questions here in just a minute. But maybe a lightning round here for the for the panel. Before we do sell and you can pick one of these to comment on
[00:49:49.740]Matthew Schaefer: We talked a little bit about China's reaction already
[00:49:54.960]Matthew Schaefer: To the
[00:49:57.270]Matthew Schaefer: Property rights issue specifically. But what about Chinese reaction to the Artemis accords. More generally, the Chinese news media has reacted negatively. But Chinese space Law Experts have actually done that done the opposite and been quite positive about Artemis accords.
[00:50:14.610]Matthew Schaefer: liability issues connected with the Artemis accords activities and then also
[00:50:22.380]Matthew Schaefer: Looking into the future going beyond the moon to Mars would we think of the Accords also working for Mars or something similar to the Accords also working for Mars. So we'll go, we'll go around.
[00:50:35.520]Matthew Schaefer: Diane, we can start with you, China liability or the moon versus Mars issue, and then we'll, we'll give everybody a chance
[00:50:43.860]Diane Howard: I'll, I'll start with liability. I think that we will the liability issues are going to be a continuation of how we've handled liability issues.
[00:50:53.340]Diane Howard: In the past, we're going to, you know, where we will certainly see some cross waivers and we'll see some certification. We'll see. We'll see some some allocation of cost and risk and we're going to see that.
[00:51:06.360]Diane Howard: You know, between between the parties to the Artemis Accords, you know, government to government, it will be handled one way and you know and that's contemplated in the in
[00:51:15.780]Diane Howard: The Outer Space Treaty, but the liability convention. However, I think when we start seeing it, you know, the private sector come into some of the Artemis activities through
[00:51:26.130]Diane Howard: Contractor situations public private partnerships and ultimately
[00:51:30.630]Diane Howard: The provider of services for which governments are the customer. I think that you're going to see those liabilities get handled contractually a great deal.
[00:51:38.640]Diane Howard: Perhaps you know, things will be built into regulations, but I don't see these as as being problematic. I think that they are complex and they require using the right
[00:51:50.310]Diane Howard: Mechanism, depending on the relationships between the parties and what what their roles and responsibilities are. But I, again, I think that we build on the lessons that we've learned through the last 60 years and we continue, and that's what I have to say about that. Thank you. Right.
[00:52:06.240]Frans von der Dunk: Frogs. Yeah, I will take China. I think this is a perfect case of China wanting to have its cake and eat it too. And to be honest.
[00:52:16.860]Frans von der Dunk: They might well succeed. Actually, they might succeed in both, you know, exuding a picture of hey, we are not these emeritus guys like the Americans are and at the same time, I should add, perhaps vent, a little bit of the frustration of being left out.
[00:52:33.060]Frans von der Dunk: Chinese are very interesting combination of an absolute superiority complex because 3000 years ago they had Confucius and we were walking around them bear skins.
[00:52:44.670]Frans von der Dunk: And yet they have missed out over the last century and a half of all the modern technological developments.
[00:52:50.160]Frans von der Dunk: So they feel frustrated by it by being left out. And in this way, they can show on the air and they can eat the cake as well because obviously if the Artemis of courts will
[00:53:00.000]Frans von der Dunk: Broaden the acceptance of whatever NASA and its partners are going to do on the moon in implementation of the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:53:08.040]Frans von der Dunk: That nobody can blame the Chinese for doing the same. And I've said already, a couple of times at other occasions.
[00:53:14.310]Frans von der Dunk: I'm not sure that the United States are going to be the first one will be able to put a man back on, or a woman on the moon, you know, the Chinese are very ambitious.
[00:53:23.520]Frans von der Dunk: They have the benefits of an autocratic society if the if the top dog.
[00:53:28.290]Frans von der Dunk: Says that this is gonna happen with 1.4 billion people you have 1 million geniuses around who are more than happy to help out. So there's a fair chance that actually Chinese are there before anyone else, or at least concurrently with anyone else.
[00:53:42.000]Frans von der Dunk: And then nobody can blame them for what they're doing. Because hey, the Artemisia courts allow free all this kind of free stuff. So it's I think it's a little bit of both. It's going to be very interesting to see how this evolves. Of course, you
[00:53:55.320]Matthew Schaefer: Can and then we'll have like do the do the final choice or if you want to hit, hit all of them can
[00:54:02.490]Ken Hodgkins: jar up. Let me just touch on liability, just for a real
[00:54:07.080]Ken Hodgkins: Quick. Second, if you have commercial activities on the moon, the insurance companies are going to have to understand what it is they're ensuring they have a paradigm for dealing with all the, what we call traditional space activities.
[00:54:22.290]Ken Hodgkins: Company comes in, says I'm going to mine on the moon. I need insurance, they're going to say, What are you talking about, and what are you, what is it that I'm ensuring
[00:54:33.150]Ken Hodgkins: I'll turn the Chinese so my experience has been in for me, it was, it was very revealing in the in the GPS arena.
[00:54:42.660]Ken Hodgkins: Where they had that bite. They do system they wanted it to be internationally accepted. They were joined at the hip and still are with us. The Russians, the Europeans, the, the, the, the Japanese in terms of the basic principles of transparency freely or
[00:55:07.260]Ken Hodgkins: Making technical data available for the open signals and so if that is a real, in my view, that's a real good model in the sense that when they have an interest.
[00:55:19.110]Ken Hodgkins: And they want to be part of the international framework and they know it's going to benefit not only them but the world community, they'll, they'll come around and I think that is is part of it, but
[00:55:30.330]Ken Hodgkins: We have to be very clear, there are huge, huge political issues that that we're going to have to overcome. They have to be more
[00:55:39.000]Ken Hodgkins: transparent about their programs they have to be more predictable. They have to be prepared to share more information and they have to be prepared to
[00:55:48.930]Ken Hodgkins: Adopt what we're laying out here in the in the art and the supports and it's all up to the Chinese, in my view, there's nothing we can do to bring them along
[00:55:59.790]Mike Gold: Right.
[00:56:01.410]Mike Gold: So I all just that take up where can end it and say that the only thing that I think we can do to bring China or other nations long as lead by example.
[00:56:11.940]Mike Gold: We embrace our values as Americans of transparency of the public release of scientific data.
[00:56:19.830]Mike Gold: Again, the Artemis accords are intended to unify the world and not isolate China or any other country. We want to bring them with us. We want them to embrace
[00:56:33.090]Mike Gold: The principles of the courts and the best way to do that is for us and our partners to lead by example show what responsible spacefaring nations do and act like and
[00:56:47.160]Mike Gold: I want to know that going back to The Hague International Space resources governance working group, we did have participation from a leading Chinese space law professor and he made substantial and constructive.
[00:57:01.890]Mike Gold: Contributions to The Hague and I've seen China play a positive role in this policy discussions. So, you know, I do want to note as Ken says, you know, the substantial political
[00:57:14.280]Mike Gold: Challenges that we have ahead of us, but I do hope that there's common ground in these policy areas for us to move forward together as a globe.
[00:57:23.970]Mike Gold: And China can be a very important part of that. And that's why I appreciate what the Chinese law professors have said that this is not a opportunity for division. This is an opportunity to come together. And in the end, the best that we can do is lead by example.
[00:57:42.630]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you. Thank you very much. Let's start a few audience questions here now. So one question came in on this property rights issue. Will the Artemis accords specifically require a country to confirm that
[00:57:58.950]Matthew Schaefer: Property rights and extracted resources is consistent with the LSAT and would the Artemis accords require a party to the moon agreement to withdraw from the moon agreement to as part of that confirmation
[00:58:17.790]Mike Gold: So forgive me for repeating myself, but what the Artemis accords will say relative to space resources is that you can extract and utilize space resources you can enjoy
[00:58:28.170]Mike Gold: The fruits of your labor, there will not be references to property rights are forcing property rights beyond that.
[00:58:36.900]Mike Gold: Again, this is a modest step forward, but we believe, a very important one, relative to the moon treaty, if there's nations that are involved with that you know that's an internal domestic issue as to what they think they can commit to and not commit to
[00:58:53.850]Matthew Schaefer: So a couple of questions. I'll sort of tied two together.
[00:58:59.640]Matthew Schaefer: One questioner is wondering if there's going to be anything to prevent the potential tragedy of the commons related to extraction of space resources. In other words, if
[00:59:09.390]Matthew Schaefer: If, if there's unnecessarily large amounts of extraction happening arm. And the other question of environmental nature is will the Artemis accords deal with
[00:59:24.420]Matthew Schaefer: The backward and forward contamination issue, which actually our panel yesterday, excuse me on Monday afternoon discussed so harmful contamination backward and forward and tragedy of the commons questions.
[00:59:38.850]Mike Gold: Apologies for always jumping in, but I'll be quick, in terms of forward and backward harmful contamination, the automatic Corps will reinforce all the obligations in the Outer Space Treaty so
[00:59:48.990]Mike Gold: Generically it's supported there. We did not focus explicitly in the Artemis, of course on those issues because there's already a terrific international forum and coast bar.
[00:59:58.320]Mike Gold: To deal with that topic. You may know that NASA move forward with needs to NASA. NASA interim directives, as you aren't familiar with needs.
[01:00:06.990]Mike Gold: To update those activities and make sure that we are both protecting the earth and protecting science, but also to ensure that there's a balance between human spaceflight.
[01:00:17.490]Mike Gold: Science safety and sustainability via a common sense approach. So those are very important issues.
[01:00:23.280]Mike Gold: That are implicitly supported by the courts due to the references the Outer Space Treaty, but because of coast bar and other areas. We didn't focus on it. And then what was the second part of the question, Matt.
[01:00:35.940]Matthew Schaefer: But the tragedy of the commons. If there's over extraction of resource.
[01:00:40.260]Mike Gold: Yeah. So real quick, and I'm sorry to be a broken record what the Accords will say on space resources that you can extract and utilize
[01:00:48.690]Mike Gold: And again, the Accords, our principles we didn't want to be prescriptive and there's issues such as the tragedy of the commons and many others that I'm sure that we have yet to face.
[01:00:57.780]Mike Gold: Whether it's space resources or space heritage or safety zones, etc. What we say on the Accords, is that the activity can take place you can utilize those resources, but that's a topic that we hope is dealt with in a multilateral forum in the years to come.
[01:01:14.580]Mike Gold: Again, the records are the beginning of the discussion, not the ending
[01:01:19.860]Matthew Schaefer: Right. Any final comments from Ken or Diane on any of the questions or any point, you'd like to concluding point you'd like to hit on
[01:01:30.540]Diane Howard: Just with reference to that last point about, you know, a tragedy of overworked commons. We're so far from that, you know, that's so speculative
[01:01:42.210]Diane Howard: I think, really, we should do what we're doing, walk, you know, crawl walk and then run. And we're so far from that.
[01:01:50.790]Diane Howard: To be that have that robust and thriving a resource utilization operation on the moon or anywhere, would be a fantastic problem to have a fantastic off world, not even first world problem to have. But we're not there yet.
[01:02:05.040]Frans von der Dunk: And even better. At the same time, there is already a sort of nucleus for these discussions going on in the world, both the arguments court context and what the Luxembourg are doing with their agreements.
[01:02:18.690]Frans von der Dunk: It's not the legal framework yet. But part of the discussion is, of course, how can we sort of develop make more dense these rules on interference harmful interference, which also have a clear effect on the environment.
[01:02:31.440]Frans von der Dunk: Rules like safety zones and what they mean all that can be sort of seen also as a basis from which ultimately to build something broader as the Anna correctly pointed out once we
[01:02:43.920]Frans von der Dunk: Get, get come to grips with what actually is happening there, and where the precise risks are lying around, because that's not sure that's not that's not clear right now.
[01:02:53.970]Diane Howard: And that's a really good incentive for inclusion and inclusive it and for other countries to get involved.
[01:03:02.130]Frans von der Dunk: Yeah, and Arctic oh by the way is is a nice example in this respect, perhaps, where you did see that countries who are interested in
[01:03:10.230]Frans von der Dunk: Benefiting from what was going on there, wanted to join the club, rather than go outside. So that also again plays into what they are saying that there's an incentive for being included because that
[01:03:21.420]Frans von der Dunk: Makes you part of the club which discusses the rules and creates a legal framework to come up with the appropriate balance. Ultimately, which is of course different in our space from an article but it's sort of a generic abstract model, it might be interesting points.
[01:03:37.980]Matthew Schaefer: Final Word.
[01:03:38.790]Ken Hodgkins: Yeah. So in terms of the the middle extraction coming back and bring it back to Earth that essentially is going to be a commercial activity. Some in some form or another. I don't
[01:03:51.510]Ken Hodgkins: Anticipate that Mike is contemplating it NASA is going to become non NASA government but NASA Inc because
[01:04:00.390]Ken Hodgkins: That that is going to have to fall to the commercial sector because the government's not going to be in the business of extracting resources and then selling them on the world market someone's going to have to be involved in that.
[01:04:13.470]Ken Hodgkins: And that is going to be. I think the next stage of having to discuss how is that going to happen.
[01:04:20.760]Ken Hodgkins: Are what is it, what is the framework that we're going to put into place to allow the companies to do that.
[01:04:27.960]Ken Hodgkins: Maybe on your under NASA stewardship or under another another government stewardship, but the of governments are not in the business of making widgets and then selling them.
[01:04:39.240]Ken Hodgkins: Nor are they in the business of extracting resources and selling them on the world market. And that's, in my view, that's the next phase. That's what we need to have a coalition of like minded evolve.
[01:04:53.550]Matthew Schaefer: Well, thank you very much panelists spent a terrific discussion. And I think one thing
[01:04:59.250]Matthew Schaefer: That is exciting. And I think Michael remember this as well. When the Senate Commerce Committee space subcommittee had hearings in 2017 on whether to reopen OSD I think
[01:05:11.760]Matthew Schaefer: How if you took one takeaway from that series of hearings, was that no, we shouldn't reopen Oh, St. What we need to do is do this case by case let practice build up but also have bilateral arrangements, build a little bit of
[01:05:29.130]Matthew Schaefer: Implementing flesh on the OS T bones gradually and let it proceed along that along that lines. And I think that's really
[01:05:40.050]Matthew Schaefer: The approach that's been taken by the US government and so
[01:05:43.890]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you to Mike and Ken and Diane for all your, your work in forwarding that that process in France from a, from an academic side and also international consultancy side. So thank you all again.
[01:05:57.390]Matthew Schaefer: For everybody else watching. Remember, we have a spectrum management and spectrum issues before the FCC and the ICU concerning satellite tomorrow it will happen, an hour earlier.
[01:06:08.970]Matthew Schaefer: Than this one it will start at noon Eastern and 11am central we have a terrific panel Jennifer manner from Eco Star.
[01:06:18.960]Matthew Schaefer: Jennifer Warren from Northrop Grumman and Ruth Pritchard Kelly from one web. So thank you again panel and look forward to seeing everybody tomorrow.
[01:06:29.040]Diane Howard: Thank you.
[01:06:30.690]Diane Howard: Bye bye.
[01:06:31.770]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you.
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