NE Space Law Week - Harmful Contamination & COSPAR Reform

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10/06/2020 Added

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MODERATOR: Lisa Pratt — Planetary Protection Officer, NASA Host | Co-Moderator: Matthew Schaefer — Founding Co-Director of the Space, Cyber, and Telecommunications Law Program and Haggart Work Professor of International Trade, Nebraska Law Speakers: Lennard Fisk — President, COSPAR, and Thomas M. Donahue, Distinguished University Professor of Space Science, University of Michigan Dr. Amanda Hendrix — Senior Scientist, Planetary Science Institute Tommy Sanford — Executive Director, Commercial Spaceflight Federation

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[00:01:04.770]Matthew Schaefer: Well, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the University of Nebraska his 13th annual Washington DC sp ace law conference and
[00:01:12.210]Matthew Schaefer: We're not all in DC, where we're on zoom do to coven. This is Nebraska is virtual space Law Week. This is our second panel of the weekend second panel of the day.
[00:01:24.180]Matthew Schaefer: We had a commercial panel with Audrey powers from Blue Origin Karen Shadow Work from relativity space. And actually, towards the end of that panel, we got into the topic today. So this topic is have
[00:01:35.340]Matthew Schaefer: Certainly much interest to commercial actors in the space industry today we're here to talk about harmful contamination and coast bar reform video on space.
[00:01:46.800]Matthew Schaefer: Research reform and there's there's planetary protection standards. A couple thank yous. First of all, two L's Beth magilton executive director of technology security.
[00:01:56.910]Matthew Schaefer: And space law initiatives here at the law college and the Sondra Marquez Sanchez communications and events specialist for our new Nebraska tech governance center. Thank you for all their organization.
[00:02:08.370]Matthew Schaefer: For the conference session today and throughout the week we've been all star panel here to address this topic.
[00:02:17.160]Matthew Schaefer: The lead moderator for today's session will be Lisa Pratt Lisa is a planetary protection officer at NASA.
[00:02:24.420]Matthew Schaefer: Former provosts professor. And now, Professor America at IU Bloomington department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
[00:02:32.190]Matthew Schaefer: Lisa was previously a team director at NASA's astrobiology Institute and also Chair of NASA Mars exploration program analysis group.
[00:02:42.180]Matthew Schaefer: Our panelists today are len fist. The Thomas M Donahue distinguished professor of Space Science at the University of Michigan Law School. He's former chair of the National Academy of Sciences space studies board and current president of coast bar.
[00:02:59.850]Matthew Schaefer: Dr. Amanda Hendricks is senior scientist at the plate Planetary Science Institute. She's Kohler co author of beyond Earth our path to a new home and the planets.
[00:03:10.740]Matthew Schaefer: Prior to being at the Planetary Science Institute Dr Hendrick spent 12 years at NASA JPL and she's been a co investigator on Cassini instruments and other NASA initiatives.
[00:03:25.350]Matthew Schaefer: Tommy Sanford is executive director of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation that represents more than 85 member companies and organizations throughout the United States.
[00:03:33.990]Matthew Schaefer: Tommy has worked on a number of important key legislative issues for the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, but even more importantly, for our purposes, and our panel here today. He was a member of NASA's planetary protection independent review board as was Dr. Hendrix.
[00:03:51.240]Matthew Schaefer: And before working at Commercial Spaceflight Federation Tommy served as government affairs associate associate at the Space Foundation.
[00:03:59.070]Matthew Schaefer: A couple regrets here today. Mike gold sends his regrets for not joining us today. But Mike will be on the Artemis accords panel that will take place at 1pm Eastern on Wednesday as part of our space last week.
[00:04:10.020]Matthew Schaefer: And Alan Stern Chair of the planetary protection independent review board and of the Southwest Institute senses regrets as well. But again, we have an all star panel and I'm going to turn it over to to Lisa to lead our, our panel discussion we saw
[00:04:28.320]Matthew Schaefer: And we need you to unmute
[00:04:41.490]Lisa Pratt: Getting a somebody else was going to unmute me message, but can you hear me now.
[00:04:45.900]Matthew Schaefer: We can loud and clear.
[00:04:47.130]Lisa Pratt: Thank. Great. Well, it's
[00:04:48.720]Lisa Pratt: An absolute pleasure to be here this afternoon and Matthew, thank you so much for organizing this group and getting us getting us all together, it is certainly a topic.
[00:05:01.410]Lisa Pratt: That has been silent for a few decades. And I think now it's it's it's back with a roar.
[00:05:10.140]Lisa Pratt: When you look back at just this past year with the launch of the perseverance rover on July 30 NASA took the first step.
[00:05:18.090]Lisa Pratt: In an international campaign to bring geological samples from Mars back to Earth for advanced laboratory study
[00:05:25.410]Lisa Pratt: The next steps in that sample return campaign will be NASA ISA collaborations that will launch in the late 1920s with the earliest possible return of the samples to Earth sometime
[00:05:39.990]Lisa Pratt: In the early 2013 this means for the first time since Apollo, the potential risk from backward biological contamination of Earth is under active discussions.
[00:05:52.860]Lisa Pratt: It's no longer just a theoretical. In addition, the United Arab Emirates have an orbiting mission and China has a rover on the way to Mars. So forward planetary protection is part of an urgent.
[00:06:07.650]Lisa Pratt: International conversation. And I'd like to open up this afternoon with really
[00:06:13.950]Lisa Pratt: focus first on Article nine, and then Article six. And most of you will know that in Article nine, there's, there's a couple of
[00:06:22.680]Lisa Pratt: Key keywords in there, avoid harmful contamination in both directions.
[00:06:30.270]Lisa Pratt: And avoid potential harmful interference with the peaceful activities of other missions. So that's a, you know, that's an interesting pair of
[00:06:41.520]Lisa Pratt: An interesting pair of requirements and I'd like to start this afternoon's questioning with Amanda Amanda served on the planetary protection independent review board.
[00:06:54.330]Lisa Pratt: Which was convened by NASA and was a follow on to a review by the National Academies of the ways in which NASA changes and evolves its planetary protection policies. So Amanda, can you
[00:07:13.110]Lisa Pratt: Give us some perspective on why the PP IRB. That's the independent review board was convened by NASA and what its primary recommendations and findings were
[00:07:26.520]Amanda Hendrix: Sure, Lisa. So the PP IRB was established in June of 2019 and this was established by NASA SMB director Thomas are broken, and this was in response to recommendation by the
[00:07:42.780]Amanda Hendrix: NASA Advisory Committee, the neck, back in December of 2018 that there ought to be a committee convene to have a look at the planetary protection guidelines.
[00:07:54.780]Amanda Hendrix: And so we started. I'm Alan Stern chaired the committee we kicked off in early July of 2019 and the idea was to have a pretty quick turnaround so we we submitted our report, just a few months later, in October. We had 11 meetings. We had four in person meetings and
[00:08:19.470]Amanda Hendrix: What we had 11 telecoms and just to kind of give you an overview of the charter. The idea was to for the PP IRB was to provide an assessment to include analysis of the scientific engineering industrial legal and program management aspects of planetary protection.
[00:08:40.860]Amanda Hendrix: And then the results of the assessment were were to be documented in a non consensus final report presentation. And so that's what we did. We there were
[00:08:54.150]Amanda Hendrix: 11 members of the PPI RB
[00:09:01.050]Amanda Hendrix: Including planetary scientists such as myself biologists and also representatives from private and civil spec sector space organizations like Tommy here with us today. So a good representation of all of the different kinds of players.
[00:09:22.320]Amanda Hendrix: And what we came up with in the report was
[00:09:27.150]Amanda Hendrix: 34 major and supporting findings and 44 recommendations and these were in areas, including planetary protection categorization human spaceflight.
[00:09:39.540]Amanda Hendrix: Private sector initiatives and missions robotic Mars sample return ocean worlds exploration and CO star. So, the recommendations and finding sort of ran the gamut of on all of these topics and we can hit everything
[00:09:55.020]Amanda Hendrix: At a somewhat high level because we did. We were chartered to provide a pretty quick turnaround on this.
[00:10:03.570]Amanda Hendrix: Some of the highlights were that we really found that
[00:10:09.720]Amanda Hendrix: You know planetary science and planetary protection techniques have changed a lot in the last few years. And so this is this was one of the guiding
[00:10:19.020]Amanda Hendrix: Reasons for this board to to convene the guidelines and the practices really need to be updated to reflect the new knowledge and the new technologies that are now available.
[00:10:32.130]Amanda Hendrix: And the whole context for planetary protection is evolving so rapidly recently with commercial interests involved international entities as Lisa was mentioning
[00:10:44.250]Amanda Hendrix: So, now is the time to really review all of these guidelines and one of the
[00:10:51.390]Amanda Hendrix: Primary findings that we had was that the recent changes in NASA's planetary protection office and its relocation to the OSM a really have had a positive impact on communication and the clarity of
[00:11:06.600]Amanda Hendrix: To the community of the needs and implementation of planetary protection. So, um, and I'll just say that for me as a scientist participating on the planetary protection and independent review board, um,
[00:11:23.280]Amanda Hendrix: My concerns were wanting to help to implement policies or encourage policies that encourage science. Okay. And to really help to advocate science through exploration
[00:11:36.870]Amanda Hendrix: And by updating the planetary protection policies as needed it. We really want that to be good for science to help preserve science and to help enable science. So I think I'll leave it there.
[00:11:49.890]Amanda Hendrix: For now, Lisa. Thank you.
[00:11:59.550]Lisa Pratt: Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm slow on my my command bar at the bottom wants to appear and disappear and appear and disappear.
[00:12:07.680]Lisa Pratt: Amanda that's that's wonderful. And of course, you're now being asked to serve again.
[00:12:13.950]Lisa Pratt: As a member of the Committee on planetary protection, which is a new standing committee that many people listening in today might not be aware of. It's a new standing committee of the National Academies under the space studies board.
[00:12:26.820]Lisa Pratt: And they are holding a series of meetings to to ask this, this group under the under the banner of the Academy to think about the sensitivity first of the moon.
[00:12:40.350]Lisa Pratt: In the light of the IRB recommendations and considering NASA's response, which is a new interim directive.
[00:12:48.270]Lisa Pratt: On categorization of the moon for planetary protection. So thank you for all of that and I hope I'll be able to pitch you a question a little later about that.
[00:12:58.410]Lisa Pratt: About the the CO, pp. In the meanwhile, I'd like to now turn to lend Fisk and and ask him to give us a brief history of coast bar.
[00:13:12.570]Lisa Pratt: And how it's changed under your leadership to hopefully provide more timely responses to the rapid technology advances that are enabling more nations and companies to explore the Moon and Beyond Lynn.
[00:13:29.790]Lennard Fisk: Thank you very much.
[00:13:33.120]Lennard Fisk: As going to start out started it with the history. It's good place to start. Always
[00:13:39.300]Lennard Fisk: Basically because those of us who give talks about coast bar at times, you know, and about planetary protection and coast bars rolling and we're aware that a lot of people are not familiar with these these issues. And so it's probably best to put us all on the same page.
[00:13:56.550]Lennard Fisk: The UN Outer Space Treaty of 1967 as as Lisa and others have mentioned Article nine
[00:14:03.870]Lennard Fisk: specifies the basic planetary protection requirements, you know, don't contaminate planetary bodies in such a way to interfere with the scientific exploration of planetary bodies.
[00:14:14.370]Lennard Fisk: And don't bring extraterrestrial material back that harms humanity. That's, that's a particularly good one. I suspect
[00:14:22.860]Lennard Fisk: Article nine also says, and this is important. Lisa referred to this. It says that the parties to the Treaty need to consult with each other.
[00:14:32.970]Lennard Fisk: In case they're concerned that there will be
[00:14:37.380]Lennard Fisk: That they are themselves, causing harmful interference with other nations or conversely, they are concerned that another party to the Treaties interfering with them.
[00:14:48.000]Lennard Fisk: So this requirement of consultation is where the Committee on space research because coast bar, which I'm the president comes in.
[00:14:57.840]Lennard Fisk: Coast bar was chartered by the International. It was called XO at the time international scientific Council of scientific unions and said, new name these days. International Science council. It was started in 1958
[00:15:14.370]Lennard Fisk: In part to deal with the issue of how to avoid biological contamination and planetary bodies that will interfere with scientific exploration. It was one of the two principles on which coast bar was in fact founded
[00:15:26.670]Lennard Fisk: The other was to provide a forum where so it and Western side is couldn't be during the height of the Cold War.
[00:15:34.740]Lennard Fisk: Remember, all this is before the Outer Space Treaty and so the explicit direction of the United Nations at that time coast bar evaluated experiments for the potential to contaminate
[00:15:47.100]Lennard Fisk: So when the Outer Space Treaty was signed in 1967 coast bar simply kept doing the job and it has ever since.
[00:15:56.550]Lennard Fisk: And in May of
[00:15:59.490]Lennard Fisk: The Committee on the peaceful use of outer space, which is the governing body or the it's the body of the signatories to the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:16:09.390]Lennard Fisk: Repeated for the record, you know, it's endorsement of coast bar.
[00:16:14.310]Lennard Fisk: For developing and maintaining the international guidelines for compliance with Article nine, in other words,
[00:16:21.720]Lennard Fisk: In the view of the people who, you know, worry about the Outer Space Treaty, if a nation is compliant with Coast bar guidelines, it is compliant with Article nine, and it cannot be accused of interfering with another nation.
[00:16:38.130]Lennard Fisk: Now, I became president coast bar and 2016
[00:16:43.470]Lennard Fisk: And almost immediately, by the way. No one told me that the president of coast bars primary responsibility was going to be planetary protection at the time, but it has proven to be that
[00:16:55.500]Lennard Fisk: almost immediate I heard criticism how coast bar was developing and getting compliance with it's gone on. So I'm planetary protection. The criticism came from JPL that came from the Japanese they came from others.
[00:17:10.020]Lennard Fisk: Now the way coast bar, does this is through its panel on planetary protection.
[00:17:16.770]Lennard Fisk: And it's the panel that's responsible for the guidelines. Now the coast bar panel on planetary protection at the time was like any other coast bar panel, which are very loose structures, the membership and whoever have to attend to be
[00:17:33.570]Lennard Fisk: Moreover, the chairs of the coast bar panel.
[00:17:38.820]Lennard Fisk: The planetary protection panel was the planetary protection officers of either NASA or Isa and what if whatever wasn't the chair was one of the vice chairs. So in effect, we had a situation where the, the people who are making the policies.
[00:17:58.530]Lennard Fisk: Were in fact enforcing the policy and that's don don a sense of good governance.
[00:18:04.950]Lennard Fisk: So Kosovar embarked on reconstituting its panel on planetary protection we we've formalized the membership.
[00:18:12.510]Lennard Fisk: With appointed members from each of the space agencies conducting planetary exploration and these appointed members are very high level than the agency there you know that
[00:18:23.010]Lennard Fisk: They have a broad purview over the agency's activities and in essence case it's Jim green, the chief scientist.
[00:18:30.990]Lennard Fisk: We also formally appointed international side is to the panel, the Chair of the panel is Athena consensus consensus.
[00:18:40.500]Lennard Fisk: Who has chosen for her statue statue stature as an established leader of International Space Science
[00:18:49.200]Lennard Fisk: And to cement our relationship with the UN we appointed Nicholas, headman chief of policy and Legal Affairs, to the UN Office about our space affairs as the Vice Chair.
[00:18:59.760]Lennard Fisk: And of course, we needed some expertise. Some planetary protection and the leadership of the panel and Gerhard Kemeny the planetary protection officer ISA is the other Vice Chair.
[00:19:11.220]Lennard Fisk: Now the reconnaissance
[00:19:14.040]Lennard Fisk: Kind of like thinking I judgment. I think almost everyone who participates in this process has worked very well.
[00:19:21.390]Lennard Fisk: Said it was technically was formed in July of 2018 and it's worked well. Ever since there are the required consultations that are under the Outer Space Treaty and more important. There's full compliance with Coast bar policy by all nations pursuing planetary exploration
[00:19:39.660]Lennard Fisk: Now,
[00:19:41.070]Lennard Fisk: All that sounds great but immediately after the panel was
[00:19:47.190]Lennard Fisk: became official
[00:19:49.650]Lennard Fisk: Another problem really robust, there's obviously growing unhappiness with the cosplay our planetary protection guidelines like commercial companies which found the policies too restrictive.
[00:20:02.070]Lennard Fisk: The main issues was not the Moon or Mars school is not moon or asteroids which there are only limited planetary protection requirements, but the main issue is Lisa referred to as Mars for which there are very stringent planetary protection requirements.
[00:20:19.140]Lennard Fisk: There was even at the time, some legislation proposed that would exempt companies from following the coast bar planetary protection policies.
[00:20:27.090]Lennard Fisk: That would have been an extremely foolish thing to have done and to do. You can't have two planetary protection policies for the same planetary body if all other nations are abiding by coast bar policies in the US is not that's a major international incident waiting to happen.
[00:20:47.280]Lennard Fisk: And if the US would be in violation of the Outer Space Treaty by interfering with other nations pursuing the peaceful use of outer space.
[00:20:57.240]Lennard Fisk: Now that said there were legitimate objections from industry, the basic coast bar planetary protection policy concerned only with scientific exploration of the planets.
[00:21:10.050]Lennard Fisk: Yet the Outer Space Treaty clearly states in Article nine, it covers both the exploration and the use of planetary bodies.
[00:21:20.130]Lennard Fisk: So what do you do
[00:21:22.170]Lennard Fisk: The problem is with the coast bar policies they have to change.
[00:21:26.550]Lennard Fisk: So how do you change the coast bar policy. Well, the official member of the coast bar from the United States is the National Academy of Sciences, and in particular the space studying sport.
[00:21:39.630]Lennard Fisk: And every major change to the coast bar policy, particularly for Mars has been the result of recommendations from the Space Studies
[00:21:50.160]Lennard Fisk: So we could have gone to the space studies for to do a study
[00:21:55.260]Lennard Fisk: And provide recommendations to coast bar on how to accommodate the interest of industry.
[00:22:01.650]Lennard Fisk: Well, first of all, it's not obvious that the space studies board has any particular expertise on the needs for industry and their studies, take a very long time. And so a different plan was put in place, starting in December of 2018
[00:22:17.070]Lennard Fisk: Working with my gold, who at that time was on the NASA advisory council Thomas Hoboken Lisa mentioned
[00:22:25.620]Lennard Fisk: The knack chartered the PPI RV which Amanda just spoke about to make the recommendations to NASA and planetary protection issues of both frankly are most important to industry others at things as well. And also, NASA's interest, for example, human spaceflight.
[00:22:44.790]Lennard Fisk: As Lisa mentioned NASA's now acting on the PPR recommendations and preparing as interim directives needs to implement them.
[00:22:55.020]Lennard Fisk: And as Lisa also mentioned. Meanwhile, the space studies board has established this nuke standing committee, the Committee on planetary protection, which will review the lips and I presume come to some agreement on them with NASA
[00:23:09.060]Lennard Fisk: Then these go to the coast bar panel non planetary protection for consideration is a good linkage between the coast bar panel and the
[00:23:17.640]Lennard Fisk: Committee on quickly and cost for the Committee on planetary protection of the academy and it's coast bars job then to
[00:23:27.750]Lennard Fisk: Use these to change the coast bar policy. Now we of course have to convince all the international players that this is a really good thing to do.
[00:23:36.270]Lennard Fisk: And I you know I always believe that reason will prevail, you know, good policies are made are good policies everywhere.
[00:23:46.110]Lennard Fisk: And that will not be a particularly difficult thing to do. And once those those changes are made to the coast of our policies by the planetary protection panel coast panel on planetary protection, then it comes to the coast bar leadership for approval.
[00:24:02.670]Lennard Fisk: Which is me.
[00:24:04.470]Lennard Fisk: And and the whole process is, you know, this process is to actually taking much longer than I think any of us hoped it would take. And there have been delays, frankly, due to the pandemic.
[00:24:16.680]Lennard Fisk: But it's it's working, it's proceeding. Well, I think, and and i i have every expectation that it will succeed.
[00:24:25.890]Lennard Fisk: And then at the end of the day, we're going to have exactly what we need a coast bar planetary protection policies that serves the needs of science human spaceflight and commercial companies.
[00:24:39.720]Lisa Pratt: Lynn. Thank you so much for that perspective on the past and the future for coasts bar and and and I want to just take a moment to thank you personally for
[00:24:51.450]Lisa Pratt: Helping to drag planetary protection kicking and screaming into the future. Let me now turn to Tommy. Tommy you, you and I have had some some some pretty. I'm going to call them fun some pretty fun sparring while you were a member of the PP IRB and and we've talked a lot about
[00:25:18.180]Lisa Pratt: The Federation, which is a professional organization with which you are one of its leaders. So I'm going to ask you, kind of a tough question and that's
[00:25:28.620]Lisa Pratt: Given what len has just described about the importance of planetary protection for both scientific discovery and the Peaceful Uses of Outer space.
[00:25:41.010]Lisa Pratt: Can you describe how professional organizations such as the federation or international best practice standards can provide leverage for planetary protection compliance by commercial and private missions.
[00:25:58.860]Tommy Sanford: Yeah, so that's a great question. We so I would first say that I also felt like it was fun sparring I thoroughly enjoyed it.
[00:26:09.360]Tommy Sanford: As it seems like you did as well, which was great. I'd also like to say thank you to Nebraska law Matthew and Lisa for hosting the panel and inviting me to speak on it.
[00:26:19.830]Tommy Sanford: And then my last caveat. Before I answer your question is anything that I say that disagrees with or is seems in conflict with anything that Audrey powers or Karen Shadow Work said. Consider me the person who's wrong.
[00:26:35.160]Lisa Pratt: And then the person that's correct.
[00:26:36.660]Tommy Sanford: They're much much much much much much much smarter than me on these many other issues.
[00:26:43.020]Tommy Sanford: So that's, again, that's a great question. Lisa
[00:26:47.880]Tommy Sanford: I, I think that, well, one of the ways is participating on the PP IRB and being a representative of that and being involved in
[00:26:58.950]Tommy Sanford: The policy making, sort of,
[00:27:03.330]Tommy Sanford: doors that are open to trade associations to participate in. There are many of those, those are independent reviews. Those are things like the National Academies process, you know, Congress
[00:27:16.350]Tommy Sanford: When it comes to drafting NASA authorization and appropriations bills each year there. There's also space policy directives, there's regulatory reform.
[00:27:28.140]Tommy Sanford: Directives, so there's a lot of opportunities to be involved in the discussion. Um, I would say that when it comes to, you know, the international community, providing
[00:27:40.170]Tommy Sanford: A sort of set of standards starting there and then working backwards towards how that guides what each country does and what their individual private companies or organizations do I think is a
[00:27:55.980]Tommy Sanford: You know works well in some situations, and I think that, you know, it's still, it's still a nice model, but I believe that, you know, a lot of times when there's a a
[00:28:06.450]Tommy Sanford: An era of growth and innovation and new technology regarding a new technology, whether it's, you know, the car or the airplane or
[00:28:15.990]Tommy Sanford: You know, new ways of doing space launch and space activity normally starts within the country, for instance, the United States they figure out how it works. Then they set up the regulatory requirements to enable them to
[00:28:34.200]Tommy Sanford: Be involved in those activities and enable those activities and then once they figured out what works well. They sort of say, well, this is what works well for our
[00:28:43.560]Tommy Sanford: For for for the companies that worked here and allowed for this industry to sort of be created and expand and then they take those best practices and standards and share that with the rest of the world.
[00:28:56.760]Tommy Sanford: And so I understand that that you know we we have two different forces going on where you know you had the Cold War era and you know you did things from sort of the top down international perspective.
[00:29:07.410]Tommy Sanford: And you work your way backwards but you know as the cold war has ended. And, you know, you know, a lot of things have changed over the last 30 or 40 years and for spaceflight commercial. The last 20 years
[00:29:20.160]Tommy Sanford: It, you know, we're going back to a different model prior to the Cold War of starting things inside the country, and then work your way out.
[00:29:27.660]Tommy Sanford: Now you know you've got these two things, and you're sort of getting them to work together. And I think that's what's happening.
[00:29:33.690]Tommy Sanford: And I you know I don't know of a lot of other models where you know that's that's happened before haven't had a whole lot of
[00:29:38.670]Tommy Sanford: Having a new nine month old. I don't have a whole lot of extra time on my hands, but I would you know i. So I don't know if there's another precedent for that but I sort of see it. That's what's happening here.
[00:29:49.590]Tommy Sanford: And, you know, we're both trying to figure that out. And you know, that's when we get to have these fun sparring sessions between you and myself and many others.
[00:29:59.160]Tommy Sanford: And it's so that we can all work together and achieve the same goal, which is what we all want, which is more exploration more science and and to do more exciting things about the solar system.
[00:30:12.390]Lisa Pratt: Hey, Tommy. Thank you so much. It really always is fun being in the same space, space with you, even when it's a even when it's a zoom room like today.
[00:30:24.510]Lisa Pratt: I'd like to now go once more around with our three panelists. But changing the focus from Article nine to Article six. And of course, Article six has the key words that say
[00:30:39.150]Lisa Pratt: shall require authorization and continuing supervision that continuing supervision seems to have often been overlooked, although I was very happy to see Lynn.
[00:30:53.430]Lisa Pratt: Mentioned it just a minute ago. So with that in mind, let's let's roll back to Amanda and and in in your role now I'm on the new committee on planetary protection at the National Academies.
[00:31:09.570]Lisa Pratt: Let's, let's talk about what your perspective is on what current US organizations have the scientific capability.
[00:31:20.010]Lisa Pratt: To evaluate harm to future discoveries from NASA or a commercial mission, specifically, is there an existing federal agency or Academy to perform that task or do we need a new type
[00:31:33.990]Lisa Pratt: Of organization to evaluate the sensitivity and proposed operations for launch and land applications in the US.
[00:31:44.970]Amanda Hendrix: Lisa. That's an interesting question. The first thing that comes to mind from my perspective is that this new committee on planetary protection at the National Academies is
[00:31:57.780]Amanda Hendrix: A good
[00:32:00.420]Amanda Hendrix: Foundation for assessing and returning to considering guidelines as needed. Right now we're looking at lunar missions, for instance, but we will move on and look at Mars missions.
[00:32:16.320]Amanda Hendrix: Considering forward and backward and contamination as our tasks are determined, but you know this is a long standing committee. And so this seems to me to be a good place in this in this country for analysis of
[00:32:35.340]Amanda Hendrix: Needed changes to guidelines as they as they
[00:32:41.430]Amanda Hendrix: As they come up with time.
[00:32:45.030]Amanda Hendrix: So I don't know if I answered, you
[00:32:46.740]Amanda Hendrix: Know,
[00:32:47.580]Amanda Hendrix: I feel like National Academies is a good good place for this.
[00:32:51.720]Lisa Pratt: I'm really happy to hear you say that. And you did not know. I was going to ask that question, I'll just be honest with the audience here today.
[00:33:00.390]Lisa Pratt: I do think we need to rethink the role of the the academy and and all of the offices that consult with with the FAA on both launch approvals and when it comes time to land.
[00:33:17.670]Lisa Pratt: To move a spacecraft to return spacecraft into Earth orbit and then get approval to to land the the Mars samples, these are
[00:33:28.350]Lisa Pratt: These are on known authorization activities and as Tommy said a minute ago, we need to figure out where the gaps are
[00:33:37.110]Lisa Pratt: And get them close so that both the scientific community and the Explore and utilize peacefully communities can understand what it'll what it'll take to get those approvals.
[00:33:49.950]Lisa Pratt: And land. I'd like to sort of now roll this to you and go back to thinking about what currently is in costars guidelines.
[00:34:01.170]Lisa Pratt: It's all self reporting. So I'm going to ask you is self reporting by national and convert on commercial ventures around the world.
[00:34:10.560]Lisa Pratt: A viable path for continuing supervision, including robotic or human missions returning to Earth from Lars is coast are going to need to partner with an international health organization to address potential harm to Earth's environment or to humans.
[00:34:31.620]Lennard Fisk: Nutrition interesting question i mean i i think the
[00:34:35.310]Lennard Fisk: The way coast bar, does it, of course, is to create some standards and things that you know the people, it'll be to worry about.
[00:34:47.040]Lennard Fisk: And and and i think you know that's where you know Tommy talks about a bottoms up you know you know how you, you know, how do you create the take the US ones and turn
[00:35:00.360]Lennard Fisk: The International ones, and so forth.
[00:35:02.670]Lennard Fisk: That's basically the way it's always been done with planetary protection due to all the planetary protection requirements. The coast bar has ever had were written by the United States, frankly, because for a long time. We were the only people doing planetary exploration
[00:35:16.590]Lennard Fisk: And so, you know, that's sort of in some ways the process that we're coming through with this now, it seems to me that that you know
[00:35:25.410]Lennard Fisk: It's always interesting as what other countries do now, you know, there's not, you know, the United States is unique in so many ways. But my recollection is is that in other countries. It's actually the space agency that has the expertise that approves the launches.
[00:35:43.380]Lennard Fisk: Of this these kinds of programs. We don't do that we, you know, talking about canals and DLR and so on, you know, can so in particular.
[00:35:53.250]Lennard Fisk: And so, you know, we don't do that. And we haven't done it since the beginning. Even though, by the way, we were the people who insisted on Article six in the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:36:02.640]Lennard Fisk: The Soviet so we were negotiating with at the time could not imagine that somebody else except governments would do this thing and
[00:36:11.070]Lennard Fisk: And so, you know, whoever was thinking this is 1967 to imagine, you know, private companies doing space exploration and it is find your exploration 1967 I think was very foresight of you farsighted on their part. And so, but, you know, and so if you know it would be
[00:36:34.320]Lennard Fisk: The self reporting is all we have at the moment you know people, you know, but, and the question is do you comply with the outer
[00:36:42.570]Lennard Fisk: You know, with a planetary protection requirements, that's a question we ask and and coast bar yes or no and tell us why you're doing it in, you know, and
[00:36:50.970]Lennard Fisk: You know and how you're doing and so forth. And, and, you know, but last time I looked, there were no coast bar police that would allow me to say.
[00:37:01.380]Lennard Fisk: You know you can't launch. You can't do this because you're in violation. So that's coast bar has no authority to do that. The authority would have to reside with whatever agency should have. And now,
[00:37:15.330]Lennard Fisk: You know, be able to do this but but but then also, but they I think where this thing goes full circle is that agency has to be say that one of its tasks is to
[00:37:30.990]Lennard Fisk: Get someone NASA to certify whether or not this mission is is in compliance with the ghost bar guidelines.
[00:37:40.470]Lennard Fisk: It's not the US guidelines would matter in this case if we were really trying to have an international mission, it's going to be in compliance with Article nine. The question should be here are the guidelines.
[00:37:53.640]Lennard Fisk: Tell me, yes or no, we, you know, some sometimes use you for example easily make you a powerful person.
[00:38:02.610]Lennard Fisk: You know the you know that so whoever is doing this.
[00:38:08.190]Lennard Fisk: You know, is asking for launch approval whatever agencies thinks they're going to give it, they should be able to, they should you ask NASA
[00:38:18.030]Lennard Fisk: To certify whether or not it is in compliance with the guidelines and and if we've made the guidelines in such a way that everybody thinks this is the right thing to do, which is, you know, Jordan.
[00:38:30.570]Lennard Fisk: But after the enforcement policy has gone to be on the side of the country. It can be on the side coast or I wouldn't say
[00:38:39.660]Lisa Pratt: Well, and that's a perfect segue to my question for tommy. Tommy, what level of transparency, would a commercial entity need to provide about their payload and intended operations to receive a launch approval from Mars, and how proprietary is that commercial information likely to be
[00:39:01.620]Tommy Sanford: A. That's a great question. And I think this
[00:39:06.000]Tommy Sanford: Quite interesting topic area here. I would say two things. First, as an overall background high level perspective. I'll just say that and point to the White House space councils.
[00:39:17.670]Tommy Sanford: Recent report a new era for deep space exploration and development. It outlines the role of government. It goes into the topic. In fact, five different topics of the role of government book.
[00:39:29.460]Tommy Sanford: The first topic that it goes into in the one that's germane to this discussion is the role the government is to promote a secure and predictable space environment for long term sustainability of space activities.
[00:39:41.700]Tommy Sanford: Here it says the United States government in concert with industry should recreate create and maintain a supportive regulatory and physical environment for space activities.
[00:39:50.940]Tommy Sanford: Without an assurance of safe operations and sensible regulations manageable risk and rights to generate profitable revenue viable economic activity is unlikely to occur.
[00:40:01.650]Tommy Sanford: And it goes on to say, which I think is important. United States Government should meet its international obligations without complex new regulatory structures.
[00:40:09.630]Tommy Sanford: And focus on reducing barriers to developing new commercial space activities, wherever possible, and to that end.
[00:40:16.530]Tommy Sanford: specifically related to this topic. The National Space Council is tasks, the Department of Commerce and transportation
[00:40:22.200]Tommy Sanford: To provide a roadmap to enable all commercial space activities receive authorization under appropriate frameworks, so
[00:40:29.910]Tommy Sanford: With that, I would say. Second, once the affirmation roadmap is complete. I imagine that the payload will go through an FAA payload review.
[00:40:37.020]Tommy Sanford: Similar to how today's telecommunication payloads do as they're licensed by the SEC and commercial remote sensing payloads are that are licensed by Noah.
[00:40:45.480]Tommy Sanford: And as a part of that process. The FA asked for information about a payload under 14 CFR for 1559 day requesting the following
[00:40:53.910]Tommy Sanford: Payload name payload class physical dimensions and weight of payload.
[00:40:58.230]Tommy Sanford: Payload owner and operator if different from the person requesting payload review orbital parameters for parking transfer final orbits.
[00:41:05.220]Tommy Sanford: Hazardous Materials is defined by section for a 1.5 of this chapter and radioactive materials and the amounts of each
[00:41:12.270]Tommy Sanford: Intend to payload operations during the lifetime of the payload and then delivery point in flight at which the payload will no longer be under the license control.
[00:41:21.870]Tommy Sanford: But the FAA regulations listing the information requires do not show anything about planetary protection.
[00:41:27.990]Tommy Sanford: This is where the Department of Commerce would likely come in like know for commercial remote sensing satellites and the FCC for telecommunications satellites
[00:41:35.580]Tommy Sanford: Well, what the, what will the Department of Commerce request for approval of that activity how sensitive, will that information be
[00:41:43.890]Tommy Sanford: Will have to wait and see what the Department of Commerce and Department of Transportation roadmap says, but
[00:41:49.320]Tommy Sanford: My educated guess would be that it will be guided by and fall within the confines of guiding principle. I mentioned earlier that National Space councils report.
[00:41:57.480]Tommy Sanford: Quote, United States should meet its international obligations without complex new regulatory structures and focus on reducing barriers to developing new commercial space activities, wherever possible.
[00:42:08.670]Tommy Sanford: And quote. And of course, NASA will play a role in the interagency process as it currently does so will state department, as well as the FDA, but I imagine that department of commerce will lead this effort.
[00:42:21.990]Lisa Pratt: And and certainly I think we can both say that the Department of Commerce has been very careful with proprietary data.
[00:42:30.120]Lisa Pratt: And and i think that's, you know, I think it remains to be seen if we can achieve adequate transparency in in this evaluation of potential to future, you know, potential harm to a future activity arm.
[00:42:45.450]Lisa Pratt: If, if there is, you know, unless balanced decisions are made about what's
[00:42:50.880]Lisa Pratt: Proprietary and what level of transparency is needed, at least during that consultation process that you mentioned. So perhaps it's it's possible that more information can be revealed to the agencies that consult on impact. And then that information.
[00:43:08.520]Lisa Pratt: Basically is then held as proprietary by the government and the commercial entity. Does that sound like a balance that's that's doable.
[00:43:20.460]Tommy Sanford: So I think that balances the absolute correct term. I think that there's going to be a sort of baseline of
[00:43:27.180]Tommy Sanford: You know, and I think the law, you know, will play a significant role in this of what the agencies are allowed to request for approval. And then above that.
[00:43:36.330]Tommy Sanford: Or within that you'll ask for a certain amount of information which they already do.
[00:43:40.680]Tommy Sanford: And they'll share that with the interagency and the iteration and the agency that has approval for this over launch licenses. They have a they have a deadline of when they're, you know, once they get a launch license submitted.
[00:43:54.180]Tommy Sanford: Which has this information included, they have a deadline. I think it's 90 120 days that they have to approve it within that, you know, those confines
[00:44:01.920]Tommy Sanford: So between those two parameters you know i i think that you know there's there's information that will be shared. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's
[00:44:11.250]Tommy Sanford: It's, you know,
[00:44:13.830]Tommy Sanford: You only have so much time and so much information you can look at. You'll have to, you know, it'll, it'll come down to, you know, people being truthful with you know
[00:44:22.830]Tommy Sanford: The information is being requested and you can't stop, you know, no matter what the rules or regulations are the law is you can't stop people from, you know, not telling the truth that they're not going to be truthful.
[00:44:33.150]Tommy Sanford: But you know, I would point to the system of, you know, how platforms work for social media, if you don't follow the terms of agreement for participating on that platform.
[00:44:44.670]Tommy Sanford: Then you don't have access to that platform. I think it's this, it'll be the same with probably with the launch providers, if you don't agree and and
[00:44:54.090]Tommy Sanford: abide by the terms of agreement for launching with the launch provider, then they're not going to lock you in the future.
[00:45:00.270]Tommy Sanford: Because you know they're about launching efficiently and and and and
[00:45:04.170]Tommy Sanford: Doing good business. And so, you know, I think it'll, it'll come down to that in the future and those who are bad actors. You know, I think that they will be, you know, removed.
[00:45:12.780]Tommy Sanford: Sort of through this process of terms of agreement and those that are will continue to keep on making progress in space.
[00:45:20.520]Lisa Pratt: Tommy, I love your I love your optimism about the
[00:45:23.190]Lisa Pratt: System self weeding the bad actors and I think this is a good moment that we we call Matthew back in. He's been monitoring the chat room and see if we have questions from the participants.
[00:45:37.200]Matthew Schaefer: Yeah. Before we jump to audience questions maybe just to tie in some discussion that happened at our commercial panel today, of course, there's this
[00:45:45.240]Matthew Schaefer: on orbit regulatory gap that exists in the US. It hasn't led any non compliance with Article six the OS t because
[00:45:52.680]Matthew Schaefer: The FA st has quote leverage their, their payload review authority to take care of it. But I think there's a big desire by commercial companies.
[00:46:01.620]Matthew Schaefer: To ultimately have this gap filled from non traditional activities for launch and re entry. It's FAA for remote sensing, it's, it's no IT department of commerce that has licensing authority spectrum usage, it's it's FCC, but for non traditional activities.
[00:46:20.160]Matthew Schaefer: There's that gap there. And one thing that comes up with the gap is how do you get companies to comply with with coast. Our standards and I just had maybe a follow up question for each of the three panelists.
[00:46:33.720]Matthew Schaefer: Landed mentioned there was a bill passed by the House. It didn't pass by the Senate that would have given the Commerce Department authority over these non traditional
[00:46:41.970]Matthew Schaefer: Activities, but he did mention that coast bar standards were not legally binding, and I'm wondering land. Are you confident enough that coast bar will come up with standards that the US Congress will find
[00:46:55.500]Matthew Schaefer: Conducive to commercial activity that they can endorse them in a in a bill that would cure this regulatory gap.
[00:47:02.250]Matthew Schaefer: Tommy. I'm wondering what what your thoughts are on on the same question essentially do you think that what coast bar comes up with will will quell concerns in in in Congress about trying to get commercial companies to comply with with new coast bar standards.
[00:47:18.270]Matthew Schaefer: And Amanda. My question to you is, this was actually in the PPI RB report sort of the truthfulness question.
[00:47:26.730]Matthew Schaefer: Launch companies can't be responsible for everything that's that that's going up and all the all the data and should the to the main responsibility really be paste placed on the payload.
[00:47:39.660]Matthew Schaefer: Provider NOT THAT NOT THE LAUNCH company. So when Tommy and Amanda
[00:47:44.790]Lennard Fisk: Okay, let me do that. We first of all, Tommy scares the hell out of me when he talks. Boy, you know, because this is this is an international instead of waiting to happen.
[00:47:54.900]Lennard Fisk: I mean they, you know, if you, if you think about this for a manager. So somebody approves the
[00:48:02.580]Lennard Fisk: The, you know,
[00:48:05.640]Lennard Fisk: I never thought that co spark. I doubt the sector covers has ever read the code for policy. So I'm not sure what he but he didn't like of apparently and and and that bill.
[00:48:17.670]Lennard Fisk: Me, but it seems to be that you know the end of the day.
[00:48:22.290]Lennard Fisk: We have treaty obligations.
[00:48:25.200]Lennard Fisk: Treaties, according to the constitution of the law of the land. We often forget that you look, there's a, I think it's the article 10 or somewhere. But anyway, so the US has legal obligations to abide by the outer space.
[00:48:40.530]Lennard Fisk: And as Lisa and I keep saying, you know, the one of the principal provisions in that is Article nine, which says don't interfere with somebody else you know when they're doing the peaceful use of our space and and on this issue of contamination in particular. And so, you say to yourself.
[00:49:02.700]Lennard Fisk: You know, if, if, if somebody isn't up to the, you know, Eddie. What are the US government you know if the company in question is unwilling to go
[00:49:17.190]Lennard Fisk: Talk to the panel on planetary protection and explain how they they are in fact abiding by this these provisions and sterilization, for example, like this.
[00:49:30.210]Lennard Fisk: Then, it seems to me that we've got we've got a problem here because I'm a company, you have a country that's doing scientific exploration and you know somebody drops a
[00:49:42.870]Lennard Fisk: On sterilized spacecraft and because the Commerce Department Secretary said it could. I mean, that's, that's an international incident waiting to happen.
[00:49:51.690]Lennard Fisk: And, and, frankly, I would have thought that if I were a company that was planning to go to Mars and bring something back people rocks. I don't care what
[00:50:05.190]Lennard Fisk: And and it came back Commerce Department Secretary or any of the, you know, somebody says you can do this, you know, because, do whatever you want.
[00:50:16.230]Lennard Fisk: And and you were not in compliance with Coast bars regulations when you do that, at least in judgment of coast bar.
[00:50:26.880]Lennard Fisk: And you harm humanity.
[00:50:30.900]Lennard Fisk: If I mean there's a lawsuit. There's a legal that'd be the legal problem with that is you know is outrageous. On the other hand, if you could say.
[00:50:41.160]Lennard Fisk: You know, are you going to be harmed humanity. If you could say, you know, we are the fact of buy to buy all the international standards.
[00:50:48.690]Lennard Fisk: And that was validated that's at least illegal to defense when every body in their uncle Susie. Susie
[00:50:55.770]Lennard Fisk: And so this there's protections for industry as well in abiding by the cost bar policies and and and it's it's not simply if we if we end up viewing this within our own government as an impediment to the industry development, then we are making a mistake.
[00:51:19.620]Lennard Fisk: And and and as opposed to a example of US leadership that example of us is willing to comply with the Outer Space Treaty, an example of the United States.
[00:51:33.420]Lennard Fisk: As I say, the United States have led the world on planetary protection we set the rules. Now we have to set the rules in such a way that it serves a broader
[00:51:43.230]Lennard Fisk: Broader activity, but if we do that, then we have we have PROTECT US leadership we protect companies against doing something which they are criticized from around the world and maybe even legally liable for things
[00:51:57.270]Lennard Fisk: And and I would say that should be the goal of this thing not to just get out of the way of you know what somebody thinks is an impediment. Now can I guarantee that I will make coast bar policy.
[00:52:12.570]Lennard Fisk: You know service thing I've got exactly
[00:52:18.360]Lennard Fisk: Just shy of two years left on my term as president, and I'm going to make sure that before I go, this is the coast bar policy is, is something that
[00:52:30.690]Lennard Fisk: Does every industry going to like it is every congressman going to like it. Some congressmen don't like any regulation, I can't help you on that side.
[00:52:37.920]Lennard Fisk: But they will be reasonable, they will be ones that can, it can in fact be be done to promote the both the use in the exploration of space, but don't let us as a country take expedient things. It's simply in the long term will be enormously damaging to the United States.
[00:53:02.370]Matthew Schaefer: Tommy some thoughts on
[00:53:05.850]Matthew Schaefer: Our outcomes for for new Kosovar standards and how how
[00:53:11.160]Matthew Schaefer: Companies and Congress will react.
[00:53:14.190]Tommy Sanford: Yeah, so it's, I'm excited to play the role of being the optimist in the room, normally I don't get to play that role. Normally, I'm the wet blanket. So it's kind of a kind of been fun.
[00:53:26.430]Tommy Sanford: First, I'll say I'm definitely not smart enough to to predict what Congress will do
[00:53:35.040]Tommy Sanford: And what will be acceptable to it or not, that's up to 218 members in the House and
[00:53:42.390]Tommy Sanford: 100 senators in the Senate. Since everything that passes related to space is always passed by. You see, and then the president signature. But what I will say in my, you know, having worked on commercial space bills for the last six years at CSF and NASA bills.
[00:54:01.890]Tommy Sanford: That I think that there would be
[00:54:06.300]Tommy Sanford: A
[00:54:08.280]Tommy Sanford: Significant concerned by a lot of people that care a lot of staff and members that care about this issue.
[00:54:15.870]Tommy Sanford: About space issues about sovereignty and wow they want to work with the international community and ensure that, you know,
[00:54:23.700]Tommy Sanford: Set, you know, set a good standard for the rest of the world and for everyone to be involved and to follow those sort of standards, I think it would be I think they'd be hard pressed to
[00:54:37.770]Tommy Sanford: Have an international organization set standards and then tell United States government or United States citizens' private citizens what it can and cannot do.
[00:54:49.110]Tommy Sanford: Just from a sovereign. Yes, just that very general concept there. I'm on you know I've heard the general the don't interfere thing related to the
[00:54:57.780]Tommy Sanford: Outer Space Treaty and I thought about that for a second. It's really, that's a two way road. So you could also argue that don't interfere is
[00:55:04.590]Tommy Sanford: You know, the way things are currently done and not allowing commercial to do things differently or they're being not differently, but modernizing the process where you know
[00:55:14.460]Tommy Sanford: You know we meet in the middle. But there's also, you know, don't interfere could also be a two way road of, well, the current process is not is interfering with new
[00:55:26.400]Tommy Sanford: New entrance from exploring space. So it's definitely you know two way road here.
[00:55:35.430]Tommy Sanford: And
[00:55:37.230]Tommy Sanford: You know, I hope to on a on a final note, you know,
[00:55:42.780]Tommy Sanford: Not be a scary to to land as he thinks I am I swear I'm not as as scary as as I come off in my first first meetings. As Lisa knows and Amanda
[00:55:55.500]Lennard Fisk: I don't fry music. Don't worry.
[00:55:57.930]Tommy Sanford: Yeah, you don't look like you do.
[00:56:00.330]Tommy Sanford: Um, but I can assure you that there's no one more interested in
[00:56:07.740]Tommy Sanford: Covering its basis when it comes to legal liability and not getting sued and destroying their, their value in their company then commercial companies.
[00:56:17.310]Tommy Sanford: So we will take every appropriate precaution to avoid that. I think there is a lot more progress that can be made on what's often described as forward contamination than backward contamination, which I think will take a longer you know will take
[00:56:35.160]Tommy Sanford: Probably longer to address and you know the federal government as Lisa mentioned earlier, you know, is hoping to
[00:56:43.110]Tommy Sanford: And you learn talked about this a little bit at the very beginning, you know, address that at the end of the decade.
[00:56:49.380]Tommy Sanford: So, you know, the federal government really hasn't even dealt with yet. So I think that that one's a little farther out, but I think board contamination would probably make a lot more progress on in the in the near future.
[00:57:00.150]Matthew Schaefer: We will not running
[00:57:01.080]Matthew Schaefer: Your, your I want to hear your response on the on the truthfulness issue, you know, whose responsibility is it to to really monitor
[00:57:12.150]Matthew Schaefer: Compliance with the coast far standards. There was also a question that came in and maybe you inland can take these two, but there's one on nuclear
[00:57:23.820]Matthew Schaefer: Powered sources in space. And how does that fit into harmful contamination and Someone also asked on the bags of Apollo waste on the moon and how those fit in with Coast bar standards so off to you and let on those to audience.
[00:57:38.220]Matthew Schaefer: Questions, as well as that the truth. Last question.
[00:57:41.340]Lennard Fisk: Now we've already ruin the movie, who cares.
[00:57:45.180]Lennard Fisk: No, no, nothing serious. I mean, the, I mean the moon god, sort of, you know, ruled out of being a particular concern when the Apollo astronauts came back and
[00:57:59.130]Lennard Fisk: You know they were quarantine for a bit. It was kind of silly they landed in the ocean. And then they got all wet and do that or does got in the ocean. We didn't ban happened, but they were quarantined and
[00:58:11.100]Lennard Fisk: And and nothing happened. And so, you know, we, the standards kept getting lower and lower for certainly for the back and forward now the in terms of
[00:58:24.570]Lennard Fisk: You know as Lisa knows there is a discussion undergoing about what categorization to use for different
[00:58:32.070]Lennard Fisk: Parts of the moon, whether it should be Category one, which nobody. We don't care about and planetary or category to which is, you know, requires some more.
[00:58:42.990]Lennard Fisk: And and and I think that's a good discussion to have its and you know should coming reasonable should come from that.
[00:58:50.040]Lennard Fisk: But the there are certainly people who, you know, even within the coast bar community, they would love to have you know there's sort of, you know, protect the moon, you know, worry about
[00:59:02.700]Lennard Fisk: You know having the, the, you know,
[00:59:07.530]Lennard Fisk: Make it a UNESCO sites or something we don't worry about where the you know the spacecraft for you, Paul spacecraft. But all these things are and and you know I but that's not planetary protection so it doesn't fall under the categories of planetary protection.
[00:59:26.820]Lennard Fisk: The there was another part of your question, I'm sorry if I might slow him down here, but
[00:59:35.550]Lennard Fisk: you're muted.
[00:59:39.240]Matthew Schaefer: So the other question that come in that maybe you and Amanda can addresses on nuclear
[00:59:44.070]Matthew Schaefer: power sources in space and how that relates to contamination.
[00:59:47.640]Lennard Fisk: I don't think you know most you're prepared to kill life on on on Mars with a nuclear power source. I mean, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be a planetary protection issue would be something else. I mean,
[01:00:01.140]Lennard Fisk: These are also these are good concerns, I think. But, but this is not, this is not planetary protection. So, I mean, we, I mean, I think it's important, actually.
[01:00:13.230]Lennard Fisk: The coast bars planetary protection right you know requirement guidelines deal with that issue and only that issue.
[01:00:21.900]Lennard Fisk: Rather than take them upon themselves to me. And one of the things that I think people are confused about on this forward contamination issue.
[01:00:31.350]Lennard Fisk: It's, it's, you know, coast bar is not the Green Party of the solar system. You know where we are trying to protect the planets.
[01:00:39.810]Lennard Fisk: We're trying to protect the science on the planet that is done on the planet. That's what the planetary protection requirements are.
[01:00:47.370]Lennard Fisk: And, and I think that's an important distinction. We're trying to protect life on the Earth because with the back contaminated back contamination. But, but we're not concerned with the
[01:01:00.870]Lennard Fisk: You know, it's really about
[01:01:04.200]Lennard Fisk: So that's what the Outer Space Treaty calls for, you know, protecting the science is done on the planet. So, so, you know, we don't get into mining on planets are reviewed or any of those things that's that's a that's somebody else at the moment.
[01:01:18.360]Matthew Schaefer: Right and manda let's get your, your thoughts on a couple of these things as well as that, that who should be the one sort of
[01:01:26.220]Matthew Schaefer: You know, telling what's what's on board issue right
[01:01:29.580]Amanda Hendrix: And so we talked about that on the PPI RB a little bit. I think we had a fighting and maybe a supporting recommendation, but
[01:01:37.350]Amanda Hendrix: You know we we talked about how it probably makes a lot more sense if someone if there's a bad actor, maybe not being particularly truthful about their payload that they're
[01:01:48.270]Amanda Hendrix: Putting on board as a you know a spacecraft say to the moon and they probably are the ones who ought to be sanctioned if something goes wrong, especially rather than it's probably a lot more practical to sanction the payload provider than the launch provider or the spacecraft provider.
[01:02:13.890]Amanda Hendrix: You know right right now with the moon being category to under coast bar guidelines, you know, you'd have to, you'd have to be carrying you know more than a kilogram of organic material to the Moon, which is, you know, pretty significant. So there's a lot you could take to the moon and and
[01:02:35.220]Amanda Hendrix: You know, not have too much documentation to worry about.
[01:02:40.710]Amanda Hendrix: With regards to science on the moon and
[01:02:45.990]Amanda Hendrix: You know planetary protection. What we're talking a lot about on the committee on planetary protection is
[01:02:55.350]Amanda Hendrix: You know, we've got the new need categorization of the moon, where instead of being all category to, you know, it's now.
[01:03:06.390]Amanda Hendrix: At least temporarily I'm considered Category one, except for the polar regions, which would be category two, and the category two is a little different from the coast bar category to where it's documentation of biological material not organic material.
[01:03:23.190]Amanda Hendrix: Which which sounds like it means not even documenting propellants. So that's a, that's a big change. And so what we're talking a lot about is how does this potentially impact the science that we want to do on the moon it at the polar regions, in particular, and
[01:03:42.600]Amanda Hendrix: And the big thing there is not so much the water and also knowing as as people have said that there's been a lot of contamination to the moon already with all the missions that have gone there.
[01:03:56.730]Amanda Hendrix: But a big concern is preserving and being able to do science in the future, especially on
[01:04:05.760]Amanda Hendrix: prebiotic signatures that have been in placed on the moon over over aeons and that are in those permanently shadowed regions because we know that they're cold and volatiles
[01:04:17.730]Amanda Hendrix: Including organics, including prebiotic materials are going to have been placed there and will be super stable over long periods of time. And so we want to be able to
[01:04:29.070]Amanda Hendrix: access those in the future for science and know that they're not contaminated. And so how do we do that. And that's what we're talking a lot about on that committee.
[01:04:40.110]Matthew Schaefer: Great. Well, I can't believe it, but an hour has already gone by and
[01:04:46.500]Matthew Schaefer: We're actually even a few minutes over, but I want to thank Lisa for for moderating the session and land Amanda and Tommy for for participating in the panel. This I think is
[01:04:58.050]Matthew Schaefer: I think when people see the title. They think it's something esoteric, but it's something tremendously important obviously for both government and commercial actors and we're going to be all very interested on how this comes out, we'll be watching
[01:05:13.830]Matthew Schaefer: What land Amanda Tommy and Lisa are doing here, these next next couple years. And maybe we can even have you all back next year for an update, because it's been a great, great discussion and just thank you all.
[01:05:27.990]Matthew Schaefer: And I'm sorry we didn't get to every audience question, but I think we certainly got to a couple that were
[01:05:32.700]Matthew Schaefer: That were most most pressing on people's minds. So thank you. Thank you very much and
[01:05:38.040]Matthew Schaefer: Look forward to seeing everybody on Wednesday for our next session during this basket virtual space last week where we'll talk about the Artemis accords with Mike gold.
[01:05:47.280]Matthew Schaefer: Acting Associate Administrator for intergovernmental in international affairs at at at NASA, our own Professor Franz monitor duck can Hodgkins longstanding US State Department.
[01:06:01.980]Matthew Schaefer: Space and Technology official now now retired and out in private practice and Diane Howard from the Office of space commercialization General Counsel at Department of Commerce. So thank you again blend Amanda Leeson Tommy and see everybody on on Wednesday afternoon. Thank you all.
[01:06:23.520]I go
[01:06:25.260]Amanda Hendrix: Live. Thank you.
[01:06:26.370]Matthew Schaefer: Thank you all.
[01:06:28.050]Thank you.

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NE Space Law Week - Harmful Contamination & COSPAR Reform

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