NE Space Law Week - Launch Reform & Other Commercial Space Developments
Nebraska Space Law Week Day 1 - Launch Reform & Other Commercial Space Developments. This panel was moderated by SCTL Co-Director and Law Professor Matthew Schaefer. Featured speakers included Audrey Powers, vice-president of legal and compliance at Blue Origin, and Caryn Schenewerk, vice-president of regulatory and government affairs at Relativity Space.
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[00:03:30.480]Matthew Schaefer: Well welcome everybody to the University of Nebraska his 13th annual Washington DC conference and of course we're not in Washington DC and we're not in person. Sadly,
[00:03:39.540]Matthew Schaefer: So it is Nebraska is virtual space Law Week. This year, but we're just delighted to kick it off here with the commercial panel.
[00:03:48.270]Matthew Schaefer: A couple thank yous. First of all, to else Beth Middleton our executive director of technology, security and space law initiatives here at the university basketball college in the Sondra Marquez Sanchez.
[00:03:59.670]Matthew Schaefer: Communications and events specialist for new Nebraska tech governance center for coordinating
[00:04:06.450]Matthew Schaefer: The zoom meetings and technology and and getting us going here also. Thank you to Marcia Smith, the founder and editor of space policy online Marshall has
[00:04:17.880]Matthew Schaefer: Co moderated this commercial space panel with me for the past several years, and would have done so again this year, she had a conflict when that when the panel.
[00:04:27.180]Matthew Schaefer: Switch, but thank you. Marsha for for brainstorming on on the questions will pose here to Audrey, and Karen and let me introduce them our panelists really
[00:04:37.410]Matthew Schaefer: fortunate today to hear from Audrey powers vice president for legal and regulatory affairs at Blue Origin.
[00:04:46.080]Matthew Schaefer: Audrey graduate graduated from a big 10 sister institution Purdue University.
[00:04:52.980]Matthew Schaefer: With a degree in aeronautical and Astronautical engineering was actually an engineer for NASA for almost 10 years before joining us us lawyers and she's had over 2000 hours of counsel time at Michigan stroll.
[00:05:05.340]Matthew Schaefer: In in NASA but Audrey's been working at Blue Origin for basically the past decade or or sell or close nearing that at least
[00:05:14.820]Matthew Schaefer: also pleased to be joined by Karen Shen work, who is now vice president for legal and regulatory at relativity space. Karen was previously Senior Counsel and Senior Director for the spaceflight.
[00:05:29.370]Matthew Schaefer: For Space X and as previously served in the executive branch.
[00:05:36.660]Matthew Schaefer: And also up on Capitol Hill so delighted to be joined by Karen and Audrey today and we're going to start with some
[00:05:44.460]Matthew Schaefer: Stream lot streamlining watch licensing questions, and then we'll move into some other commercial matters. So first question here to Karen.
[00:05:53.940]Matthew Schaefer: What's the latest update on the final rule the streamlining launch licensing rule. When do you think it will be published and do you think it was a good sign there was significant delay between the
[00:06:06.060]Matthew Schaefer: The
[00:06:07.890]Matthew Schaefer: Original proposed rule and now getting the final people do you think a lot of changes will have happened here in the past 15 1617 months.
[00:06:16.200]Caryn Schenewerk: Thanks, Matt. And thank you so much for hosting us and letting us kick off this event with you and we're pleased
[00:06:23.010]Caryn Schenewerk: To be here, virtually if if the alternative was not at all. And I can at least say that I am here in DC. If you when you when you decide to come back in the future.
[00:06:32.730]Caryn Schenewerk: And as you noted, it's, it's been a great honor for me to join relativity team is the Vice President for regulatory and government affairs and to continue to work on issues like this rulemaking, which I feel very invested in at this point.
[00:06:45.870]Caryn Schenewerk: Having worked with Audrey from days before the agency even decided to move forward with rulemaking as part of a consensus.
[00:06:53.850]Caryn Schenewerk: movement within industry to advocate for streamlining the launch and reentry rules. So you know the the FAA and introduced their draft rules in February of 2019 and we have heard pretty regularly for the last year or so, and even actually back in
[00:07:12.000]Caryn Schenewerk: That the expectation was that by fall 2020 we would be seeing a final rule.
[00:07:17.040]Caryn Schenewerk: And we are here on September 28 with only a couple of days to go in the month of sep tember the month that we were told that these would likely come out in so with October one.
[00:07:27.570]Caryn Schenewerk: Coming up to this week I I'm hopeful that we'll see something soon.
[00:07:32.040]Caryn Schenewerk: And and as we were joking, is when the panel was first starting kind of regularly hitting refresh on both the IRA 12 866 page to see if it's been pumped out of there or and also the the docket on the FAA site.
[00:07:45.000]Caryn Schenewerk: And I do think that I think they you know industry spent a lot of time asking the FAA to re engage with industry through the rulemaking process and to have a little bit more of a dialogue back and forth.
[00:07:58.110]Caryn Schenewerk: And the timeframe was certainly one of the biggest reasons we understood that to be challenging. That said, you know, there have been indications along the way and publicly available comments from the FAA
[00:08:09.600]Caryn Schenewerk: That you know we were that we were heard on our big ticket items.
[00:08:13.950]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think that one of the most important reasons to be optimistic about an advancement of the issues that we raise through the inputs that industry gave
[00:08:23.400]Caryn Schenewerk: Was that there was so much consensus around the concerns the big ticket items of concern to
[00:08:29.880]Caryn Schenewerk: The various you know commercial entities who engaged with the FAA on licensing and those of us like relativity, who are you know at the earlier stages of licensing versus being license holders.
[00:08:40.590]Caryn Schenewerk: The consensus was clear across the board there were, there weren't big gaps in people's concerns, especially from those that are best their launch launchers.
[00:08:48.720]Caryn Schenewerk: And so I think that, you know, we have great hope that those big ticket items will have been addressed in some meaningful way. And that will see a rule that reflects that that feedback. But that's just purely me being an optimistic person.
[00:09:04.980]Caryn Schenewerk: Not as a result of any clear insight that any of us have received into where the rule is going, but I have I have faith in the leadership over there, you know, great, great, big fan of Wayne Montes
[00:09:16.170]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think he has a great team supporting him that, you know, it has been smart to engage on these topics and discuss them with us over many years. So hopefully prepared for a good final rule there.
[00:09:27.150]Matthew Schaefer: But other any, any thoughts there.
[00:09:30.300]Audrey: But yeah, a couple things I understand there's quite a backlog of of publishing these these rulemaking activities in the Federal Register. So while we're all waiting for OMB to release this final rule.
[00:09:45.150]Audrey: I understand that sa certainly intends to publish it on their website and to start outreach to industry in case there's some
[00:09:54.060]Audrey: Lag and how quickly it can actually be published in the Federal Register so so that that's that's very good. It sounds like he is very eager to start engaging with industry on this.
[00:10:05.130]Audrey: The as far as you know changes that might be anticipated in the final rule. I do think
[00:10:12.210]Audrey: As he rightly recognize the the the timeline that had been assigned to them to carry out this activity by by the administration and the, the White House through the National Space council and
[00:10:24.930]Audrey: Typically, in the context of how rulemaking typically proceed, particularly one of this magnitude. I mean, we're talking about hundreds and hundreds
[00:10:33.360]Audrey: Of regulations that are being rewritten and and removed and change. So, this one has proceeded on on a pretty quick.
[00:10:41.880]Audrey: Timeline and so the approach to the proposed rule in my opinion was put everything in there that could possibly be needed for a final rule.
[00:10:54.090]Audrey: Because that's what the final rule needs to be based on what comes out in the final rule has to have some tie to what was in the proposal, even if it's changed significantly by the comments that are submitted.
[00:11:06.390]Audrey: So I, I am hopeful I share Karen so that some of the more controversial portions of the proposed rule will be revised or not included in the in the final rule because there was such consensus.
[00:11:20.820]Audrey: Feedback on them so i'm i'm also optimistic that the final rule looks more aligned with what with what industries, looking for
[00:11:30.540]Matthew Schaefer: Great, thank you very much. So one goal, obviously, in this was in the SPD to the
[00:11:37.110]Matthew Schaefer: Presidential space policy directive to as well as the goal for the regulation was to become more performance space and less prescriptive and I guess one question is,
[00:11:47.880]Matthew Schaefer: And and and maybe given what you said. Audrey. It's good that a lot of things were included in any way but but why. Why do you think so much in the original drafts maybe strayed from that that goal of performance based and and
[00:12:04.680]Matthew Schaefer: Is there is there hope now that at least since it was a pretty comprehensive draft rule that that these things that are still prescriptive can be shifted back to performance based
[00:12:14.700]Audrey: Yeah, I think when you when you look at, it's a proposed rule as a whole. There were certainly parts that were performance space and we went out of our way to say what you did. Right. There was a really good approach.
[00:12:28.590]Audrey: And then there were other sections of the rule that were very, very prescriptive and and one of the samples that keeps coming to light is there's a whole software a section on software validation and performance.
[00:12:42.510]Audrey: That is pages long and very protracted and a lot of really prescriptive detail that would quite frankly prevent a lot of the enabling technologies in the software realm that lead to safer approaches.
[00:12:58.410]Audrey: And so famously I know something, Karen and I talked about a lot at this time period when we were reviewing this this proposal last summer was
[00:13:07.200]Audrey: Would the advances that SpaceX healthy industry make in the area of automated flight safety systems.
[00:13:14.310]Audrey: Be able to succeed under rule set like this and there was a lot of question as to whether advances like that would be possible. So
[00:13:22.110]Audrey: The entire purpose of a performance based approach is that you allow those technological advances that bring about safer safer approaches to operations.
[00:13:32.430]Audrey: So we really, we really use the opportunity to say you know there's there's this example in the rules, that's a really great performance based approach. And then over here, not so much.
[00:13:44.790]Matthew Schaefer: Great, and Karen, get your thoughts on that as well. And maybe incorporate this notion of
[00:13:50.430]Matthew Schaefer: What role do advisory circulars play in the in the regulations, my understanding is
[00:13:55.620]Matthew Schaefer: You can have a performance based rule, but then it advisory circular can maybe give some more clarity or an example of how someone might comply with that performance based rule, but it would just act as an example. I know we have some discussion last year on the panel.
[00:14:09.870]Caryn Schenewerk: Yeah, absolutely. And you're spot on. That's exactly the goal right that
[00:14:13.920]Caryn Schenewerk: That you provide flexibility through performance space rules and you allow innovation, which is one of the most important challenges that we all advocated that the rule, try to tackle.
[00:14:23.370]Caryn Schenewerk: Which is being able to address the idea that we have a diverse industry right now. I mean, we're all like it's orbital and suborbital launches, but that that's about where you know it's in common. Different fuel types, different numbers of engines, different kinds of sites.
[00:14:39.090]Caryn Schenewerk: And so, in the course of trying to
[00:14:41.880]Caryn Schenewerk: Make sure that we have a modern not just streamlined, but a modern like rule that can operate beyond just this year, which is one of the challenges that we face when we look at the existing
[00:14:51.600]Caryn Schenewerk: You know regulations that they're too prescriptive and they, they don't accommodate some of the innovation like autonomous flight safety systems that are happening.
[00:14:59.100]Caryn Schenewerk: So if you have a performance based rules, then you can support that as you note that with advisory circulars
[00:15:04.980]Caryn Schenewerk: And then those can provide some detail and exactly as you said. Examples of means of compliance that if somebody wanted to build or operate specific to a means that would get through FA review. It might be more burden some it might mean
[00:15:21.030]Caryn Schenewerk: Unless innovation, it might have some consequences for that operator in terms of efficiencies.
[00:15:27.210]Caryn Schenewerk: That they, you know, they might or might want to accept, but should they accept it. Then they know that they could get through the review process and those can be particularly, you know, helpful to newer entrants to
[00:15:38.670]Caryn Schenewerk: Companies that are doing development programs and and trying to work through you know different aspects of it because the extent that you can say, Okay, we're going to innovate on this, on this aspect.
[00:15:47.820]Caryn Schenewerk: But if we stick with this kind of script over here, then we know that we can get through a review in a timely manner versus
[00:15:54.630]Caryn Schenewerk: Everything being a discussion with the agency about how you accommodate and equivalent level of safety or a waiver to the rule.
[00:16:00.780]Caryn Schenewerk: And that becomes super burdensome and that's what
[00:16:02.820]Caryn Schenewerk: That's what the existing one of the challenges with the existing rules as well as that and not being innovated it creates this burden. Some approach where you have to have waivers or equivalent levels of safety which are an alternative to a waiver.
[00:16:15.480]Caryn Schenewerk: And that you know all that paperwork and burden builds up in the system. And so I think that there's the, the, the actual. What does it mean to comply. And then also, what's the process improvements that we want to see and advisory circulars offer
[00:16:27.600]Caryn Schenewerk: A big I think improvement upon process to
[00:16:31.500]Caryn Schenewerk: An artist understanding. I guess I'll just add to that. Our understanding is that those are in works, you know, guidance documents are in works now.
[00:16:38.820]Caryn Schenewerk: With the rule and that you know we have the expectation that we'll see maybe some of them come out with the rule or in in some time, you know, close timeframe to the rule.
[00:16:48.240]Caryn Schenewerk: But you know, I also the, the, the draft rule referenced a lot of them. And so, I mean, it just seems like in
[00:16:57.450]Caryn Schenewerk: The agency trying to process all of our licensed materials that are still in licensed and oversee the license activities that are occurring still and also draft as advisors were coast. I'm a bit skeptical that will see 100% in the next month.
[00:17:12.360]Audrey: And I was mad. I was going to add one point there and the so the the lack of advisory circular said to Karen's point, the proposed rule came out with this list of like 15 to 20
[00:17:24.360]Audrey: Advisory circulars that we're going to be written at some future date to better inform
[00:17:29.730]Audrey: How to comply with the rules and I think it's worth noting that on the aviation side of the FAA. They are very, very adept at this development of advisory circulars that inform
[00:17:41.490]Audrey: Operators how to comply with the rules and there's this back and forth that occurs between the FAA and the operators in the in the aviation world.
[00:17:51.900]Audrey: To develop these advisory circulars so well. What we're hoping is that the advisory circulars come out with the final rule that there's some amount of time for industry review and provide comment and iterate on the
[00:18:04.890]Audrey: Content of those FA because that's really be used to tell us what we have to do to comply. That's how you get regulatory certainty in your in your programs. It's how you, how you
[00:18:17.670]Audrey: Understand what your licensing timeline is going forward. And a lot of those things are what's been missing in the past. So this development of advisory circulars is as important as all the work we've done up bow on the final rule.
[00:18:35.610]Matthew Schaefer: What one other, I guess, Congress is going through some appropriations bills right now and what one other things separate and aside from streamlining the regulations is
[00:18:45.600]Matthew Schaefer: With the increase in the number of launches and the cadence of launches that's occurring but also expected over the next 510 years. What are your thoughts on on resources and personnel that FAA will will need to process these new streamlined regulations.
[00:19:04.680]Audrey: Yeah, I think this. This is a critical part of the discussion. So the goal in the direction of the National Space Council NSP to was to increase operational cadence. Right.
[00:19:18.360]Audrey: SpaceX coined this phrase file and fly. That is a really great description of where we're all trying to get to. So I, I know that that Wayne Montes has really
[00:19:33.300]Audrey: Worked at how do we create within a st recruiting systems to bring in great talent.
[00:19:41.340]Audrey: He is. He certainly acknowledge that staffing and as he is down. And even if they were at 100% when you look at the the scope of work that that office has to do
[00:19:53.850]Audrey: It's, it's certainly concerning on the part of operators as to whether they can address all of the all of those priorities and that earlier in the year.
[00:20:05.220]Audrey: When Monty was very engaged in industry to so that he was, he could clearly communicate what the priorities of the Office for going to be
[00:20:13.140]Audrey: And the first, first and foremost, it was this rulemaking. So not just finalizing the rule, but also developing these a C's and there were, there was a great portion of his office directed at that activity.
[00:20:25.800]Audrey: The, the priorities. After that, more licensing for human spaceflight efforts like we see going on with with SpaceX.
[00:20:34.830]Audrey: And Blue Origin and virgin, you know, getting ready to fly humans and then you got to other licensing priorities. So payload flights. You know those types of launches.
[00:20:45.150]Audrey: Space for authorizations and might be out there. So the fact that the everyday licensing churn was like third or fourth on the priority list for this office.
[00:20:56.520]Audrey: You know, I think Wayne Montes was rightly out there saying, we have a limited number of resources and the everyday stuff that you guys are trying to do our way down on the priority list so
[00:21:08.370]Audrey: ASC despite that, and despite those constraints, I asked. He did a great job.
[00:21:13.890]Audrey: Of trying to be responsive to licensing needs and the licensing current of folks for operating and and folks, we're trying to get operations, but we have more and more operators coming online. We have more spaceports trying to be licensed
[00:21:28.410]Audrey: New technologies that are emerging need different types of attention. And I think those, that's a really big ass on the size of the offices right now.
[00:21:40.800]Matthew Schaefer: Aren't any thoughts.
[00:21:42.150]Caryn Schenewerk: Yeah, I really agree with everything. Audrey says, as usual, but um it. One of the things that I want to highlight is that the agency also undertook a reorganization during the course of this time.
[00:21:51.870]Caryn Schenewerk: That we have all the
[00:21:52.980]Caryn Schenewerk: School has been pending. So in addition to trying to, you know, dig through the the pile of licensing materials that they have to review work with new insurance. They also managed to
[00:22:05.010]Caryn Schenewerk: Figure out a different
[00:22:06.030]Caryn Schenewerk: operating model for their office and reorganize that and they've been implementing that I think. And you know, it's hard to say from the outside.
[00:22:13.800]Caryn Schenewerk: How much of a change that has happened. I think that's probably something more evident to people on the inside of the organization.
[00:22:19.290]Caryn Schenewerk: But it certainly speaks to the goal which we all really appreciate of having an efficient system that can manage the workload.
[00:22:26.910]Caryn Schenewerk: That said, I think that the the additional resources are going to be necessary, and the ability to kind of to streamline the process. In addition to the rule. And then, and also have
[00:22:39.660]Caryn Schenewerk: Have an ability to transition people because one of the big piece of a big workload ahead of them.
[00:22:45.030]Caryn Schenewerk: Is the is the are all the licenses and we don't know what the answer is going to be with regard to what does it mean if you're in the process now and you don't have your license yet or you have a license and you have to transition to the new part for 50
[00:22:57.480]Caryn Schenewerk: So that's a big new like waiting workload ahead of the team there.
[00:23:02.340]Caryn Schenewerk: That hopefully they have organized their team around and are preparing really well for but it's going to be a bit of a pinch point for all of us, because
[00:23:10.890]Caryn Schenewerk: You know, if I look at what relativity is doing having, you know, we're working on an expendable vehicle flying from the Cape right now.
[00:23:16.980]Caryn Schenewerk: And, you know, and in the future from Vandenberg but focus first flight for the cape that first flight getting through the FAA licensing would normally be a 415 417 very straightforward. You know, we're tailoring tailoring
[00:23:29.640]Caryn Schenewerk: With the range because we're on the range and you know the unknowns around what for part 450 will look for us is certainly something that we're trying to kind of think
[00:23:40.560]Caryn Schenewerk: The card about in terms of our schedule and and very concerned about what amount of work are we doing now, that will be wasted. If we have to transition to a different approach.
[00:23:51.150]Matthew Schaefer: Really
[00:23:51.600]Audrey: Can I, can I put an exclamation point on something, Kerry said
[00:23:55.530]Audrey: So the, the idea of grandfather and how our current operators going to be grandfather, will they be grandfathered into these new rules.
[00:24:02.610]Audrey: So the proposed rule last summer had like one or two lines on grandfather ring and it said something like, if you're a current licensee operating under a current authorization
[00:24:14.490]Audrey: You can continue to operate under that authorization until such time as you need to modify or update or adjust that that authorization
[00:24:24.150]Audrey: So that, that sounds good. It sounds nice, but the reality of that is
[00:24:30.030]Audrey: We update our license every single flight. I mean, we have rolling updates, because we have new types of payloads. We have improvements to system design. We have changes to our operational approach.
[00:24:43.350]Audrey: We are constantly updating our license application and modifying the license that we are approved to operate under. So the idea that we get that we get grandfathered into the current regime until the next time that we submit a licensed modification
[00:24:59.100]Audrey: That might be a month. It might be a week is so this is not like a significant period of time. So what we really looked at
[00:25:07.050]Audrey: When we were reviewing the proposed rule was if we if Blue Origin, for example, had to bring new shepherd into compliance with our 450 on a very
[00:25:16.320]Audrey: Expedient and for timelines, so that we don't delay our operational timeline. What is the impact on the program in terms of FTS in terms of of money and analysis tools that we might have to bring online and that was significant.
[00:25:32.070]Audrey: So we're really hoping that FAA heard those comments that we made about the impact of the programs and that we maybe see some more some more leeway in in the in the grandfather and approach that they take. And the final rule.
[00:25:48.330]Caryn Schenewerk: And manage want to put a real important point on this.
[00:25:52.020]Caryn Schenewerk: That generally speaking the rule right has is not. It is not changing like there were things that are changing. There are lots of stuff in the role that will change from what we do today.
[00:26:02.130]Caryn Schenewerk: But an very important aspect of the role that is not changing is the level of safety, right, the level of acceptable risk and the level of safety that we are all working towards
[00:26:09.840]Caryn Schenewerk: So this is not a rule about improving safety in launch this is rule about streamlining how safety how launch is regulated to the safety standards. So the, the grand fathering issue becomes particularly offensive potentially
[00:26:24.720]Caryn Schenewerk: If, if it only is diminishing of a launch entities ability to move into operations by virtue of a paperwork exercise. So I think of the, you know, they're going to be
[00:26:37.380]Caryn Schenewerk: Topics where we're reflecting on what comes out in the final rule. This is when in, you know, discussions around how
[00:26:44.160]Caryn Schenewerk: It'll affect some operators, you know a little bit more than other operators, but this is one that is definitively kind of across the board of have
[00:26:53.190]Caryn Schenewerk: A great import and great impact with very little, like, it's very hard to defend the idea that you would not allow entities that are already in process or operating to to continue to figure out a way to operate as they were or as they were preparing to
[00:27:09.960]Matthew Schaefer: Not appreciate the point. It's pretty damaging to the commercial space industry if you say congratulations. We've streamlined the regulations, but due to failure to address grandfathered in transition periods were actually harming you in the in the in the short term.
[00:27:24.330]Audrey: Rain, so I
[00:27:25.830]Matthew Schaefer: Think that's a really important point.
[00:27:28.830]Matthew Schaefer: Last question on on sort of the, the launch side of things before we get to maybe some non launch matters. What's the status of voluntary industry standards for suborbital an orbital human spaceflight.
[00:27:43.950]Matthew Schaefer: The learning the so called learning period is set to expire in 2023 and of course every time.
[00:27:49.170]Matthew Schaefer: You know, it was hope that when the commercial human spaceflight began on a large scale that there would be a significant run of the learning period. But, you know, with the set to expire in 2023 should it be extended. And then finally,
[00:28:04.800]Matthew Schaefer: NASA has a plan to do a safety review before putting its personnel and suborbital flights and has that changed anything so sort of a three part question. The voluntary industry standards on
[00:28:16.470]Matthew Schaefer: Human spaceflight the learning period exploration and masters safety review for suborbital
[00:28:23.850]Matthew Schaefer: So,
[00:28:24.060]Caryn Schenewerk: I'll start with the voluntary industry standards and of course I'll defer to Audrey on the suborbital spaceflight books. It's certainly not in my purview.
[00:28:33.000]Caryn Schenewerk: So, so on the industry standards, you know, efforts continue to be underway through you know industry through consensus industry standard bodies, including a STM
[00:28:43.440]Caryn Schenewerk: I think that, you know, progress is being made. I don't think it's the
[00:28:48.270]Caryn Schenewerk: I think that there is. It was an expectation or desire for a level of progress in this realm that I always thought was a bit optimistic more optimistic than even this optimist tends to be
[00:29:00.240]Caryn Schenewerk: And and and that's the end it's tied to to why the learning period has been, I think, a defensible approach and that is the diversity of operators and the and the lack of, you know, large numbers of operations.
[00:29:15.480]Caryn Schenewerk: So, you know, we're not all coalescing around doing things in exactly the same way.
[00:29:21.270]Caryn Schenewerk: We're still, you know, in many cases, developing new capabilities and new operations even companies like SpaceX, who, you know, flying the Falcon nine
[00:29:30.270]Caryn Schenewerk: So reliably and consistently, you know, at the same time building out starship in South Texas with a brand new vehicle, they're testing out capabilities and its plan to, you know, be engaging and human spaceflight.
[00:29:43.020]Caryn Schenewerk: So, so I think you just like that alone shows. I think, you know, the fact that we're, we're still in a great deal of developing development and innovation in the industry.
[00:29:52.290]Caryn Schenewerk: I think that there are places and the industry is finding them where we can find consensus around around standards, they don't, they're, they're not all consistently around human spaceflight, though, to be clear, right, in some cases it's related to ground safety.
[00:30:06.780]Caryn Schenewerk: And operations outside the operations that
[00:30:09.390]Caryn Schenewerk: Will could involve human spaceflight. Right. So if you're setting standards for that are related to ground safety that could be a flight. That's a payload flight or a human spaceflight flight.
[00:30:18.930]Caryn Schenewerk: So, so I think that it's it's just it's slow progress. I also want to highlight the fact that it's challenging for smaller entities in our industry to meaningfully engage in those conversations
[00:30:31.380]Caryn Schenewerk: So when you have a team like
[00:30:32.850]Caryn Schenewerk: For example, relativity, where we're just at 200 people and we're, you know, working towards our first flight and 2021
[00:30:41.070]Caryn Schenewerk: It's it's a challenge to have people so focused as you need to be on developing your hardware undertaking your test and you're evaluating where you are in your program and making progress.
[00:30:51.810]Caryn Schenewerk: And having those same experts that are the subject matter experts for actually doing what you need to do with your core activity.
[00:30:58.230]Caryn Schenewerk: Turning and engaging an hour long phone calls and multi hour meetings to discuss what and as consensus standard would be
[00:31:05.550]Caryn Schenewerk: So, you know, and that's that's the, that's the majority of our industry right now. So if you look at all the different launch companies across the board. So focusing on launch right this point.
[00:31:15.630]Caryn Schenewerk: And the majority of those companies are there are still small companies. We have some big players in the industry. Of course, we have United Launch Alliance. We have blue and SpaceX that you know employ thousands of people
[00:31:26.370]Caryn Schenewerk: But the majority are still the smaller companies. So I think that's one of the challenges and as far as the learning period is concerned, I don't. Having track this issue for a decade now. I don't actually see that the
[00:31:38.760]Caryn Schenewerk: The reasons for moving past the learning period, the same arguments that were true, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago, they still hold true to today with regard to where we are in the development of this capability and
[00:31:52.350]Caryn Schenewerk: You really have to make sure that people understand the great amount of oversight that the FDA does have right so if the crew are part of the safety system, then they are not exempted from the safety regulations.
[00:32:05.820]Caryn Schenewerk: So if you have
[00:32:06.570]Caryn Schenewerk: Actually engaged in flying a human who is involved in flying the vehicle, then that person is not exempt like the learning period is not touch them.
[00:32:14.160]Caryn Schenewerk: And if we discover a safety issue that needs to be addressed the FAA can regulate to that safety issue.
[00:32:19.140]Caryn Schenewerk: So we think that it's still fits the bill for where we are today in the development, but I'm you know now at a company that's not focused on human spaceflight in the near term. So maybe maybe folks that like Audrey, who are thinking about this feel differently.
[00:32:32.400]Matthew Schaefer: What are your thoughts.
[00:32:33.420]Audrey: Yeah i well i think Karen make some great points. If you look at the intent of Congress when when the learning period was was first put in place.
[00:32:43.410]Audrey: First of all, it's not a vacuum. It's not that there is absolutely no regulation of human spaceflight by the FAA there there is too many of the points that Karen made
[00:32:54.060]Audrey: They acknowledge that a lot of these architectures have crew on board who are performing safety critical functions.
[00:33:01.020]Audrey: And there are regulations pointing at, how do we train those people. How do we make sure that they understand and undertake their safety critical functions.
[00:33:10.380]Audrey: In a successful manner so so so there. First of all, is not a void of human spaceflight regulation is FAA is ability
[00:33:18.930]Audrey: Is is limited and a lot of ways, particularly when you compare it to what's going on on on the aviation side of the industry.
[00:33:25.170]Audrey: But when, when you look at Congress's intent, you know, how do we help a lot of these architectures be developed and we make sure that folks can engage in in robust design and development programs.
[00:33:38.640]Audrey: That a lot of those reasons still exists today. And I think we would all like to say that boy in the in the past. However, many decades.
[00:33:48.270]Audrey: we've progressed to a common carrier model. And we're flying humans all the time. I mean, I think we all wish that this had happened faster.
[00:33:56.370]Audrey: But I don't think that's the reality that we're looking at right now and and
[00:34:01.170]Audrey: To echo Karen's points on on the the industry standards development efforts in Congress back in 2015 the last time they extended the learning period said
[00:34:11.370]Audrey: Okay, how about industry if you can get together and you start developing consensus standards.
[00:34:16.290]Audrey: And start identifying best practices start in, in essence, if you were going to put together a regulatory framework for human spaceflight figure out how you would do that and start doing that for what
[00:34:30.450]Audrey: So there are you know reports that have to go back to Congress as to the progress that is being made related to all of these things so that as were quickly approaching 2023
[00:34:41.940]Audrey: All of these things are being hashed out and I think an important voice that has entered that conversation is NASA
[00:34:50.070]Audrey: To the third part of your, of your quarter fourth part of your question. How are you, you know how to ask questions, Matt. Matt gets all the mad hits all the great questions in four parts. So, so not NASA's plan to fly astronauts on social vehicles.
[00:35:08.610]Audrey: This new so will crew effort that they stood up this. This really has shed light on it, you know, you have these operating vehicle programs like new shepherd.
[00:35:18.420]Audrey: Or like spaceship to with virgin and if if NASA, we're going to take the approach of, for example, the Commercial Crew Program.
[00:35:27.840]Audrey: How do you impose something like volumes of requirements on vehicles that are already in operation.
[00:35:33.900]Audrey: And I think even NASA would say, and certainly in our, you know, very new and brief engagements with them.
[00:35:40.860]Audrey: They say, Okay, that's, that's probably not the right approach that doesn't seem like the right approach. You're not going to go have a company that is operating system.
[00:35:48.060]Audrey: Go back and and completely start from square one. To prove to NASA that we meet all of these powerful crew style requirements. And so I think everybody is relatively aligned that we need a different sort of different sort of approach here. And so the the learning period is definitely
[00:36:07.800]Audrey: An FAA
[00:36:09.840]Audrey: If, if and when it gets out from underneath this this this learning period construct could FAA help NASA have more insight to these vehicles. I think we're quite a bit.
[00:36:23.550]Audrey: I think we're a bit further away from from that interaction. So, so what's realistic. I think on the timeline that NASA is moving on, is
[00:36:32.640]Audrey: How do we as an operator give NASA some combination of insight and reliability or flight history that they can rely on to say, okay we're comfortable with the safety posture of this system. So we're definitely going to be going through
[00:36:48.810]Audrey: You know reviews with NASA or or this would be blue origins approach to it. How do we go through an appropriate level of scrutiny to what we've done so far.
[00:36:58.650]Audrey: And then have NASA realize someone on the successful flight history that we've had with New Bern, so that that personally that's that's what Blue is looking at. So I think we're a little bit further away from
[00:37:12.630]Audrey: The FAA and NASA kind of working together in this post learning period environment to kind of exercise that type of that type of oversight, but it's certainly something being discussed.
[00:37:31.260]Matthew Schaefer: Not a lot, launch
[00:37:34.170]Matthew Schaefer: Feedback.
[00:37:36.630]Matthew Schaefer: Non launch
[00:37:38.370]Matthew Schaefer: Questions here.
[00:37:39.480]Matthew Schaefer: What about on on orbit new on orbit jurisdiction for non traditional space activities. There's been a debate going on really for many, many years. Now, whether it should be in the purview of the Department of Commerce, or the
[00:37:55.560]Matthew Schaefer: FAA as to where, where do things stand, and and and what are your, what are your thoughts on on getting this regulatory gap filled
[00:38:06.450]Audrey: This is that my
[00:38:08.190]Audrey: turn. My turn. She wasn't
[00:38:10.560]Matthew Schaefer: Audrey, then go
[00:38:12.090]Audrey: Okay. Um, so we have visited there are a lot of nuances to this to this question. Um, there's, there's sort of this division that has appeared in a number of plays on on Capitol Hill, you know, an agency discussions.
[00:38:27.780]Audrey: About kind of this division between how do you get to space. The launch and reentry part of it. And then what do you do when you get there. So the commercial activities that everybody is hoping, hoping
[00:38:40.020]Audrey: You know becomes evident as much reentry is is made more efficient and more routine.
[00:38:46.800]Audrey: And and so kind of depending on where where you fall in that view. Is it a transportation function or is it a commercial activity undertaking.
[00:38:56.790]Audrey: That that kind of defines where you might end up as far as soon as which which side of the House should should regulate this we have over in the Department of Commerce.
[00:39:07.980]Audrey: You know, Secretary Ross very, very interested in standing up this office of space commerce, headed by Kevin O'Connell.
[00:39:15.900]Audrey: They are, they're very interested in kind of getting going and carrying out some of the direction that has appeared in the space policy directives that has clearly said commerce.
[00:39:25.980]Audrey: should hold some some functions for for on orbit activities space traffic management, as we call a space situational awareness.
[00:39:34.890]Audrey: So Kevin is looking at these marching orders, I think, and yet he has a very, very small staff in this office of space commerce and that reflects Congress's
[00:39:46.530]Audrey: Kind of division of division of feeling on on where they should go. So Congress has not necessarily appropriate the funds necessary for Kevin O'Connell to stand up a burgeoning office of space commerce.
[00:40:01.350]Audrey: That could really oversee all of these activities and I will say,
[00:40:06.270]Audrey: To, you know, really, really positive aspect of of how Kevin O'Connell has looked at this.
[00:40:13.260]Audrey: He said, we're going to take a whole of government approach to to what we're trying to do here. So we're not just going to sit down and say, oh, we've got mineral resources. We've got minimal staff. We don't have enough to do every
[00:40:24.390]Audrey: You know, all of these things that we've been tasked with
[00:40:27.810]Audrey: What he said is, we're going to go rely on the expertise that exists in all of these other places.
[00:40:33.510]Audrey: And we're going to bring them into inform our processes that we might use going forward. So we're going to reach out to NASA. And we're going to reach out to FAA
[00:40:42.030]Audrey: And we're going to reach out to the Air Force all of those other entities that have been very involved in
[00:40:47.190]Audrey: Spaceflight and say how can how can you help us put together the right process processes to approach this.
[00:40:53.970]Audrey: So I think that's, that's a really good, you know, it's kind of a little bit
[00:40:58.980]Audrey: It could be a little bit alarming to think that they're setting up this sort of matrix organization in the federal government, but um you know he's he's trying to figure out how to keep how to keep this moving because at the end of the day.
[00:41:11.490]Audrey: You know, the, the, the United States, like many other countries, we have obligations under, under the Outer Space Treaty under, under Article six and we want to make sure that that we're, we're really staying well aligned with with carrying out those allegations.
[00:41:27.420]Audrey: And so this is I'm sure very frustrating for for someone in kind of funnels position, but I think he's really trying to make the best of the situation, you have this entire other camp that says
[00:41:39.360]Audrey: He has been doing stuff like this really the licensing launch and re entry. Why don't you just expand their authority, a bit and and expand that to on orbit orbit activities.
[00:41:50.190]Audrey: I think at the end of the day, that's not just a tiny little expansion of authority. I mean, there's
[00:41:54.960]Audrey: There's potentially a lot going on in outer space, whether you're talking about Leo or or satellite commercial government satellites or planetary exploration
[00:42:04.860]Audrey: You know, it's part of the moon. There's, there's just a lot of activity going on out there with a lot of different
[00:42:11.280]Audrey: Technology architecture. So I I'm a little bit skeptical to say, oh, just just expand the FAA his authority, a little bit more, and we're good to go for complicated discussion that
[00:42:26.880]Matthew Schaefer: on orbit jurisdiction.
[00:42:28.260]Caryn Schenewerk: Absolutely. So, you know, if you think about the way things have been operating today and they've operated actually fairly well right we have the FAA owning launch a reentry.
[00:42:39.120]Caryn Schenewerk: Within number one goal of protecting the public, right. So, first and foremost, the phase is chartered with the FA office and commercial space transportation and its licensing regime.
[00:42:50.280]Caryn Schenewerk: Is chartered with protecting the uninvolved public, there is no uninvolved public in space.
[00:42:55.830]Caryn Schenewerk: Everybody is in space because they intended to go to space and they accomplish a whole feat of engineering and operations that you know takes billions of dollars to accomplish in many cases.
[00:43:08.040]Caryn Schenewerk: To get to space, not, not for the launch, but to be able to get an operating space, and to make money in space or to accomplish a mission in space.
[00:43:15.180]Caryn Schenewerk: And so that's I I constantly keep that in mind as a key differential between what it means to be in space and what it means to go to space I be like launching or reentering are coming home from space.
[00:43:27.660]Caryn Schenewerk: And that that is very much in the
[00:43:31.020]Caryn Schenewerk: role that the Department of Transportation and the FAA plays in our society and in our country, which is to protect the public right
[00:43:38.370]Caryn Schenewerk: And then there's another level of sophistication in the protecting of people who are in common characters Audrey referred to
[00:43:44.940]Caryn Schenewerk: For passengers and aircraft, because you have an expectation of a level of safety in that in that operation that is being
[00:43:50.580]Caryn Schenewerk: So mature compared to where we are in space at this point. So why we have this segregation of activities that the whole nother topic for a whole nother panel, but
[00:43:59.940]Caryn Schenewerk: In the course of thinking about the role of the FAA, the Department of Transportation and then you start thinking about the role of the Commerce Department
[00:44:06.480]Caryn Schenewerk: The way that it is being proposed reflects what is happening today with payload activities in orbit. Right. So you either have
[00:44:15.300]Caryn Schenewerk: You can have a combination of remote sensing and communication satellites, but the FAA has no involvement in regulating communication satellites and their operations in orbit or remote sensing satellites that are overseen by Noah.
[00:44:28.410]Caryn Schenewerk: Within the Department of Commerce and that has worked. You know, it gets to be a little fun. If you are a launcher. Who wants to launch something
[00:44:36.750]Caryn Schenewerk: And operate it in space and you have, you want to communicate with it and you want to have some, you know, picture taking capability with it.
[00:44:44.100]Caryn Schenewerk: And then you've created a situation where you're going to be subject to a number of authorities, we're not getting to a one stop shop for all those authorities in this country right the FCC is still going to have its role.
[00:44:54.600]Caryn Schenewerk: You know, under remote sensing. There's a reason why that role exists, the way that it does in the agency. They exist in
[00:45:01.020]Caryn Schenewerk: And so if you are accepting that the status quo of that division of labor, so to speak, between launch and on orbit activities is acceptable.
[00:45:11.760]Caryn Schenewerk: Then the, the, the authority being given to the Department of Commerce for what happens in orbit.
[00:45:18.960]Caryn Schenewerk: Where there is not uninvolved public is is in line with that theory of division of labor that has been enacted so far in my opinion.
[00:45:28.710]Caryn Schenewerk: It also goes. So when you start looking at that in addition to things like space situational awareness and that being at the Department of Commerce. In addition to the on orbit authority.
[00:45:36.780]Caryn Schenewerk: Those two things fit together. Right. It's where you're going to understand what's happening. They need to have the most visibility into what is happening in space in order to be able to track that.
[00:45:45.630]Caryn Schenewerk: And it all that activity also aligns with the way things have happened already in the Department of Commerce. If you look at weather data right so if if there is a
[00:45:54.930]Caryn Schenewerk: Congregate or of data about us a situation. It was a lot of scientific data and sensor data and then and then people can access that to use for their commercial purposes for their
[00:46:05.880]Caryn Schenewerk: You know, whatever that or non commercial purposes for safety purposes, public safety reasons.
[00:46:11.430]Caryn Schenewerk: That is like the space situational awareness data that is also being proposed to flow through the Department of Commerce. So I see a lot of parallels of ways that things are working today.
[00:46:22.350]Caryn Schenewerk: That fit within this framework that's been proposed, they make they make it seem appropriate to where we are right now. Do you
[00:46:31.230]Caryn Schenewerk: Want a part of your question nomad is is it urgent, I do think we need to solve this. So, you know, five years ago, I was of the, like, okay, we need to get this right. And I still think we really need to get it right.
[00:46:42.330]Caryn Schenewerk: But we had a little bit more time on our hands and we still can leverage to some degree.
[00:46:46.980]Caryn Schenewerk: Either the other agencies or phase payload review, but we're on the verge of some really exciting and interesting activities happening in orbit, whether it's refueling or
[00:46:58.950]Caryn Schenewerk: satellite servicing. And the last thing we want to do is have the lack of approval authority. Not necessarily, we don't actually need a whole regulatory regime in place, but at least a clear like
[00:47:10.470]Caryn Schenewerk: Ownership within the US government whose door. Do you go and knock on when you're trying to get this done.
[00:47:16.080]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think the companies that are engaging in those certainly feel the urgency and I think that's an appropriate urgency at this point. So I do think we need to move out with with solving this and
[00:47:24.810]Caryn Schenewerk: And I do hope that we can have some constructive conversations to continue that that progress with Congress. So far, I found it to be really constructive, I think there are
[00:47:32.880]Caryn Schenewerk: Very good reasons to have questions on both sides of this issue if you're if you're going to make it a binary do T versus Department of Commerce question.
[00:47:41.220]Caryn Schenewerk: That said, I do think we need to get to a resolution on it. And I do think that there are good reasons to buy the Commerce Department is a good home for it. Right.
[00:47:49.200]Matthew Schaefer: Well, before we move to audience questions, answers. And if anybody has a question. You can pose it in the Q AMP a box on the zoom webinar.
[00:47:59.550]Matthew Schaefer: But one final question for Audrey. And one final question for Karen, we have a panel later today on harmful contamination planetary protection and CO star reform.
[00:48:10.500]Matthew Schaefer: And then on Wednesday we have an Artemis accords panel. So I wanted to maybe start with Audrey, get your views on on Artemis accords.
[00:48:20.520]Matthew Schaefer: The principles that have been laid out. And I've seen on some other conference sessions and whatnot. There's been some concerns raised, maybe some of the principles are
[00:48:31.350]Matthew Schaefer: Difficult for commercial entities sharing of information interoperability, if it's taken too far that it inhibits innovation or or whatnot. But I think there's been some response that hey, these are for
[00:48:47.220]Matthew Schaefer: governments that are cooperating with NASA, not necessarily for commercial actors, so you can address that in your thoughts and Artemis, and then we'll go to Karen for some brief thoughts on Harpo contamination and post for reform.
[00:49:00.600]Audrey: Sure. So, but Blue Origin is obviously very interested in things like the the Artemis records. We have our blue moon program or our lunar lander program.
[00:49:11.940]Audrey: That we've been working on for a number of years. And that became our, our offering to NASA for it's it's a CLS program under, under Artemis
[00:49:21.330]Audrey: So, these, these discussions are very important to to us. And, you know, I'm just interested as a lawyer, when something like the ardent supporters can come out and
[00:49:32.250]Audrey: What. One of the reasons I think is
[00:49:34.740]Audrey: We have, you know, certainly for as long as I've been a lawyer, we have been talking in academic circles about the Outer Space Treaty for so long, like what's going to happen with Article two, and what's going to happen with Article six
[00:49:48.360]Audrey: Harmful interference and coordination and all of these themes of the Outer Space Treaty and we are finally getting to the point where we're going to start
[00:49:58.920]Audrey: Trying to apply practically what these things mean cooperation and set and that is such an exciting thing for us and for our industry and
[00:50:08.790]Audrey: And I think it's important to one of Karen's points on the on the last topic, keeping
[00:50:15.840]Audrey: Regulation and even the you know the development of these principles acknowledging that NASA is not a regulatory agency.
[00:50:22.950]Audrey: Keeping those efforts and align with innovation and with practical operation of these vehicles, I think is really important. You don't want one getting out ahead of the of the other
[00:50:34.290]Audrey: I think they're, they're probably difficulties with both models. So I do I actually, I commend NASA for saying, I think this is the right time to try to crystallize. Some of these
[00:50:46.380]Audrey: Really, really important. You know, big ticket items in the Outer Space Treaty and start trying to really contextualize what they mean in in
[00:50:56.760]Audrey: You know, in the framework of going to the moon and
[00:51:00.330]Audrey: I, you know, given the public private partnerships that NASA is undertaking through the arsonist program for, for example, ALS, and for a number, it's it's close program is partial lunar payload services program.
[00:51:13.710]Audrey: These are all private entities that are, you know,
[00:51:18.210]Audrey: private spaceflight companies that are engaging in these relationships with NASA. So what NASA signs up to through the Artemis accords with
[00:51:26.490]Audrey: International partners are very much going to impact these relationships that NASA is undertaking with with private actors like like Blue Origin.
[00:51:35.340]Audrey: So to the extent that NASA signs up through an Artemis accord to an interoperability.
[00:51:41.520]Audrey: Agreement with three other countries that very much defines the technology that Blue Origin can incorporate into the descent module for, you know, on, on our lunar lander. So we're very, very concerned about that. I do think that there there are
[00:52:00.570]Audrey: Our experience. So to this point is that NASA is very aware of wanting to maintain some some room for technological advancement.
[00:52:12.120]Audrey: We very much have advocated in our conversations about things that we, you know, technologies that we were trying to progress through these relationships that
[00:52:21.720]Audrey: You know, have not necessarily been done before so I very much knowledge that those pieces are are very important to these conversations but this
[00:52:30.300]Audrey: This idea that like the arm is, of course, or a government thing, and they're not going to be going to touch commercial industry. I just don't i don't agree with that. I think
[00:52:39.840]Audrey: NASA is is so relying on the commercial industry to achieve some of these goals in the Ottomans program that we're, we're all going to be affected by it. And I think it was the right time.
[00:52:50.850]Audrey: For NASA to say, you know, we've got these inner, inner governmental agreement out there that governs the ISS relationships. And that's just not we can, we can't use that model for this. We can't expand it.
[00:53:01.980]Audrey: In a way that would make it useful for the moon. So let's come up with a structure very much informed by our experiences back there with the IgA
[00:53:09.780]Audrey: Let's come up with, with a new approach to developing these international relationships for all of these countries that are talking about going to the moon.
[00:53:18.810]Audrey: So I'm completely fascinated by the artist towards discussions and I'm looking looking forward to those into this panel discussions, very much.
[00:53:29.010]Matthew Schaefer: Sounds real
[00:53:30.810]Matthew Schaefer: Quick box on harmful contamination and post bar.
[00:53:34.170]Caryn Schenewerk: Sure. So just, I'll try to be really quick on it and you know I'm very honored to be part of NASA's regulatory policy committee, and I'm sure Audrey feels the same way. It's been a really great add to national NASA's advisory committees and
[00:53:46.740]Caryn Schenewerk: It's been really nice to be able to participate in that and talk about some of these issues, including what does it look like to to deal with the harmful contamination question.
[00:53:56.250]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think that, you know, the challenge that we all face, especially if you're in a company like the one I'm at now the one I was at previously that is pursuing a mission to Mars and thinks that that's that interplanetary
[00:54:08.370]Caryn Schenewerk: Multi planetary you know life is important is the the challenge that the current standard set that didn't even address human activities. Right.
[00:54:19.890]Caryn Schenewerk: And so, so if we if NASA wants to do what what it's saying it wants to do. And I think it's really then it's really important.
[00:54:27.510]Caryn Schenewerk: That a good conversation be had with all of the entities that could be involved in it, just to Audrey's point about the Artemis accords.
[00:54:34.140]Caryn Schenewerk: Really need to be thinking about how do we accomplish these missions and how do we balance out all the interests
[00:54:39.900]Caryn Schenewerk: In a meaningful and appropriate manner to meeting the missions and that's that's the real conversation that I see happening and it has happened and I think
[00:54:48.900]Caryn Schenewerk: Alan Stern did a great job leading the research project for NASA leading the group I'm going blank on the name of it, but
[00:54:56.790]Caryn Schenewerk: That was set up to specifically look at that, under look at how NASA has been treating it and what what changes could be possible. And how do you balance that as you consider human spaceflight activities.
[00:55:07.500]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think that it was really encouraging to see that it involved folks from academia from the science community and from the commercial space community. So I think it's, I think we're headed in an encouraging direction and I'm really pleased that NASA has tackled this hard problem.
[00:55:26.520]Matthew Schaefer: Right, yes, looking looking forward to further and thank you for the entree both into Artemis chords and the
[00:55:33.900]Matthew Schaefer: Harmful contamination cosplay issue. Let's go to some audience q&a up. We have a question here. Space Policy directive five was recently issue dealing with cyber security within space systems and
[00:55:46.530]Matthew Schaefer: General your comments on that, but also won. The question is wondering if this will help with software regulatory prescriptive approach that was that a scene that was mentioned earlier.
[00:55:58.740]Caryn Schenewerk: Is I'll just go real quick on this one, which is to say that this is a very important issue cyber security is very important.
[00:56:04.770]Caryn Schenewerk: And we need to be, I think, in our industry. I think we do take it seriously. The companies I've been at certainly take this issue very seriously.
[00:56:12.750]Caryn Schenewerk: And I think that the government you know this SPD five, you know, certainly voice that interest. And we've seen some news recently about some cyber concerns that and issues that have happened.
[00:56:25.980]Caryn Schenewerk: So, so I do. I also think that we will see
[00:56:29.820]Caryn Schenewerk: This issue likely addressed in the role, I think it's, there's every reason to think that there may be that the rule would be an opportunity for the government to flow down some requirements regulations related to cybersecurity.
[00:56:41.790]Caryn Schenewerk: In the launch licensing a reentry licensing to be determined. But I think that that's likely something we'll see
[00:56:48.930]Audrey: Yeah, and I completely agree. I think
[00:56:52.770]Audrey: SPD five really there were a lot of should statements in SP five like you know actors should undertake this approach and the government should look at these things. There were very few must statements in there right so
[00:57:08.790]Audrey: I'm at board and we have, you know, a team of individuals that have been supporting some initiatives with the government to discuss these cyber security issues, and I think it's great to maybe
[00:57:22.320]Audrey: formalized those interactions, a little bit more. But one of the questions we had coming out of when we saw SP five was who is going to be the government authority for either imposing requirements on
[00:57:36.630]Audrey: On operators or just establishing best practices, if we're going to remain in the world of should rather than must so
[00:57:45.480]Audrey: I think there are it opened up a lot of questions for us and and a number of folks immediately came to me and said, hey, these new FAA rules that are coming out, or is that going to, you know, contain a whole host of cyber security type
[00:57:59.460]Audrey: Rules and is interesting cyber security was not mentioned in the proposed role at all. There was one, there was one very short discussion of like payload and Christian
[00:58:10.740]Audrey: But really looking at the payload review process, but from a launch vehicle design perspective, a ground system design.
[00:58:18.120]Audrey: There just wasn't anything related to that. So it'll be interesting to see what government agency kind of stuffs up. It says, Okay, we're going to be in charge of this from a best practices perspective, or from a, from a regulatory oversight perspective.
[00:58:33.630]Caryn Schenewerk: Yeah, and I just to add to that, I mean, while the SPD five had sugar in it, the government does have the ability to regulate this through, you know, the Acquisition Regulations, at the least, right. So the default
[00:58:45.330]Caryn Schenewerk: And NASA are, you know, they can certainly impose requirements there that God has a like the the God has the cybersecurity maturity model that they already use on other do in God contracting
[00:58:57.450]Caryn Schenewerk: So I think, yeah, I think that while I completely agree with Audrey, it was, it was soft on the SPD five my expectation is that that's that the softness ends there.
[00:59:08.880]Matthew Schaefer: We've got three other questions here. Maybe I'll throw them out there and in Audrey, I'll, I'll give you first choice amongst the
[00:59:16.590]Matthew Schaefer: Three. There's one on one question is wondering what's in this is almost more of an engineering question right
[00:59:23.490]Matthew Schaefer: What's the ratio between human talent into talents and artificial intelligence in launch activities. How much are humans held responsible versus artificial intelligence.
[00:59:36.120]Matthew Schaefer: The other question deals with space debris and how we divide up authority between the various licensing agencies. Now in and whether that would be changed if Department of Commerce got on orbit authority. Generally, um, and then the final
[00:59:58.290]Matthew Schaefer: Question is on accessibility, both in terms of individuals. So it's expensive to get buy a ticket to space. Now, is there going to be any accessibility mechanisms put into
[01:00:12.630]Matthew Schaefer: Place, other than costs eventually going down further and further. So those are the three
[01:00:20.160]Audrey: Three, good ones. Three, good ones. Um, I'll start with the with the first one, maybe giving away my engineering background so
[01:00:27.510]Audrey: The, the, the, I guess the, the debate between automation vs vs human involvement and and AI. If you look at the architectures that Blue Origin is developing.
[01:00:41.070]Audrey: We have bought into automation being being the approach so new shepherd and it does not require a pilot. It does not require a traditional crew model to be on board.
[01:00:52.440]Audrey: It is it is truly the passengers in the astronauts are are there for the experience, not to carry out activities related to operation of the vehicle.
[01:01:02.400]Audrey: So that that sense of automation is one of the foundational kind of technology approaches that we've taken, and part of that is because we see the value in
[01:01:14.400]Audrey: improving safety of these architectures. When you remove humans from the loop right and
[01:01:21.840]Audrey: This is, I think, SpaceX did a great benefit to the entire industry, bringing automated flight termination systems to the range.
[01:01:29.550]Audrey: Getting through the hurdle of the Air Force accepting that that approach and and when you look at the range of the future discussions that are happening now that is going to be a requirement of every range operator going forward. And, you know, some of these
[01:01:45.960]Audrey: Software the software proposed rule discussion. One of the problems with that proposed rule was that it was based on the underlying assumption that having humans in the loop was a safer approach and automation.
[01:01:59.250]Audrey: And you know, we, I think they heard that there's a large segment of industry that just doesn't agree with that. So that's kind of our, you know, my personal my personal position, but also the approach Blue Origin has has taken to the design of the vehicles.
[01:02:15.000]Caryn Schenewerk: When that in fact was studied. Right. I mean, there was a good deal of research and and examination done of the question of the human in the loop. And the fact is, is that it's safer without a person
[01:02:25.290]Caryn Schenewerk: You know, so that that automation absolutely improves the level of safety and in and it's you know, it's just a very thankfully well accepted aspect of it.
[01:02:35.790]Caryn Schenewerk: Despite the fact that it's been, you know, it was a challenge to bring it online and to to push it out and get the range and everybody online with it.
[01:02:44.790]Caryn Schenewerk: I think the the thing that I want to add to that because certainly at a company now where we're 3D printing rockets and and will be flying and Thomas rockets. In the same way, is that that level of
[01:02:54.930]Caryn Schenewerk: Being able to use AI and to automate your
[01:02:58.890]Caryn Schenewerk: Factory is also a real we see as a real benefit to improving safety and reliability, because you have consistency. So, you know, when you look at 3D printing a vehicle.
[01:03:08.610]Caryn Schenewerk: Through an autonomous system you're looking at decreasing the number of piece parts by thousands to, you know, to millions versus your building material as a fraction of what it is in a more traditional manufacturing. So I think that will see this automation.
[01:03:22.680]Caryn Schenewerk: Aspect play out in a number of ways in the industry beyond just where we've seen it so far to the benefit of safety and reliability. Yeah. And then I thought I would kind of jump on the
[01:03:35.880]Caryn Schenewerk: What was the other question was it on
[01:03:37.440]Matthew Schaefer: What I'm space debris.
[01:03:38.790]Caryn Schenewerk: Uh, yeah, yeah.
[01:03:40.650]Caryn Schenewerk: I'll just
[01:03:41.370]Caryn Schenewerk: Answer here that my took my take on the space debris question is, is it we're best
[01:03:44.940]Caryn Schenewerk: We're going to be best suited to take a whole government approach here. So I think that the knee, the US, the US operators.
[01:03:52.350]Caryn Schenewerk: And even internationally. But the way that we should best deal with this domestically is a whole government approach so that we don't have different
[01:03:59.610]Caryn Schenewerk: Rules are different approaches again amongst different agencies. If it's the FAA. If it's the FCC if it's Noah. If it's commerce, looking at on orbit authority, it should we need to come to a conclusion about what this looks like, and have it be implemented the same across those entities.
[01:04:15.120]Matthew Schaefer: Right. Any final thoughts on space debris Audrey before we wrap up.
[01:04:19.590]Audrey: No, I totally agree with Karen, I think the Commerce Department. This whole of government approach is really is really the right way to get started on it.
[01:04:29.220]Matthew Schaefer: Well thank thank you both so so much this has been really a fantastic hour I wish I could go on longer but understand a rule may be released at any day.
[01:04:43.710]Matthew Schaefer: Back to other things. But this has really been informative and educational appreciate you really taking the time out today to do it encourage everybody to join this afternoon session at 3pm Eastern 2pm central the harmful contamination coast bar panel.
[01:05:00.540]Matthew Schaefer: That will feature len fist President coast bar. Dr. Amanda Hendrix, who is a member of the planetary protection, protection independent review board.
[01:05:10.350]Matthew Schaefer: That NASA put together and Tommy Sanford from the Commercial Spaceflight Federation and will the lead moderator THERE WILL BE, LISA prep planetary protection officer at at NASA. So please join us for that. And thanks again. Karen and and and Audrey. Really appreciate it.
[01:05:28.530]Audrey: Thank you so much as a pleasure.
[01:05:30.360]Matthew Schaefer: Thanks, man. Have a great day everyone.
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