SciPOP: Boldly Going: Star Trek Meets Real World Space Law

Elsbeth Magilton, J.D. Author

02/07/2019 Added

12 Plays

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From the Prime Directive to the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, how does the Star Trek universe compare to real space law? Join us for an evening with Elsbeth Magilton, J.D., as she examines international and domestic space law through a science fiction lens.

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[00:00:01.187](spacey swooshing)
[00:00:03.688](bubble popping)
[00:00:09.108](audience applauding)
[00:00:09.941]Well, thank you everybody.
[00:00:11.080]I'm really excited that you're here,
[00:00:12.540]I'm happy to be here.
[00:00:13.550]It's very cold and very snowy,
[00:00:15.340]you could be at home right now ordering pizza
[00:00:17.460]and I'm thankful that you chose to instead be here with me.
[00:00:19.960]And hopefully we have a little fun
[00:00:21.330]and talk about space law.
[00:00:23.090]I think space law is very fun,
[00:00:24.382]I'm also a Star Trek fan so merging two
[00:00:26.640]was kind of an exciting and fun prospect for me.
[00:00:29.320]So my goal here tonight is that we have some fun, right.
[00:00:31.862](audience laughing)
[00:00:32.960]I was inspired to get engaged with this process
[00:00:35.640]and do a Sci POP talk because my book club who,
[00:00:37.528]thank you for being here, we all went to one last year
[00:00:40.374]on the physics of The Flash.
[00:00:42.140]And I managed to learn some physics.
[00:00:43.930]Now, I do like math and science
[00:00:45.207]but I'm a lawyer, I don't use physics on the regular.
[00:00:47.794]So teaching me some physics was a pretty remarkable ability
[00:00:51.490]and it was because it was fun, right.
[00:00:53.290]And so my hope tonight is that we have a little fun,
[00:00:55.080]joke about Star Trek, enjoy a science fiction show
[00:00:57.920]that I presume if you're here, you probably like,
[00:00:59.960]and maybe learn a little bit about international law
[00:01:02.370]in the mean time.
[00:01:03.379]So please, like she said, hold questions til the end
[00:01:05.740]but I love question, please ask them.
[00:01:07.305]If we don't get around to everybody tonight,
[00:01:08.954]feel free to contact me via email,
[00:01:10.820]I love to talk about this stuff and geek out about space.
[00:01:14.340]So who am I?
[00:01:15.690]I'm the executive director of the
[00:01:16.850]Space, Cyber and Telecommunications Law Program
[00:01:19.130]here at the University of Nebraska.
[00:01:21.076]You might be thinking to yourself,
[00:01:22.560]why the hell is there is there at space program in Nebraska?
[00:01:24.930]I will make you wait to the very end of this presentation
[00:01:27.270]to answer that question
[00:01:28.500]but I promise I'll get there.
[00:01:29.926]What that means is I do most of our research development
[00:01:32.661]so I spend a good chunk of my time
[00:01:34.670]doing nothing but research and scholarly,
[00:01:36.940]and legal research is not one that gets a lot of attention
[00:01:39.500]'cause we don't need big lasers,
[00:01:41.220]it's mostly pencils, paper and people.
[00:01:43.506]But we do quite a bit of research,
[00:01:45.371]engaged with the university affiliated research center,
[00:01:47.900]with strategic command and those sorts of projects.
[00:01:50.200]As well as mentoring students working with students
[00:01:52.290]and the general administrative tasks
[00:01:53.830]that come along with directing a program.
[00:01:55.950]I am a space geek from, life long, right,
[00:01:59.103]this is not new to me.
[00:02:00.760]I will say, my legal career started a little bit more
[00:02:03.530]on the tech side of things.
[00:02:04.490]I was a web developer,
[00:02:06.335]my work in law school was really about electronic discovery
[00:02:09.138]and how we use electronic evidence in the court room.
[00:02:11.840]Kind of positioned or pivoted that into space law,
[00:02:14.360]they're very interconnected, believe it or not.
[00:02:16.239]So it made a lot of sense to me to move there.
[00:02:18.290]But I am a legit attorney,
[00:02:19.450]licensed in the state of Nebraska.
[00:02:20.970]I think it's relevant for this conversation
[00:02:22.950]to say that my first Star Trek
[00:02:24.270]and this is how you can age everybody in the room, right,
[00:02:26.280]was The Next Generation, that's what I grew up watching
[00:02:28.254]with my family.
[00:02:30.381]As I've gotten older, I have watched some of the original
[00:02:33.250]or most of the original episodes
[00:02:34.570]and of course, Deep Space Nine,
[00:02:35.530]some of the spin ups and, of course, Voyager.
[00:02:37.441]I really, I waffled so many times on this meme.
[00:02:41.860]A, I do like being called captain
[00:02:43.565]of the Space, Cyber, and Telecom program,
[00:02:45.560]so I encourage you at any point,
[00:02:46.784]when you ask a question to refer to me as captain.
[00:02:50.010]But secondarily, the other meme I almost picked
[00:02:51.790]was a joke about how the first female captain
[00:02:54.350]in any of the Star Treks ended up with a space ship
[00:02:56.810]that was also the same name as minivan.
[00:02:58.731](laughing)
[00:02:59.606]But I kind of didn't like that joke
[00:03:01.270]'cause I also happen to really love my minivan
[00:03:03.880]that I drive.
[00:03:04.713]Which is not, sadly, a Voyager, but Toyota Sienna
[00:03:06.930]but it's a great car, I encourage you to get a minivan,
[00:03:09.260]they're awesome wagons for anything you need.
[00:03:12.530]Also I just felt like I had to share this,
[00:03:14.160]to share my street cred as a Star Trek fan,
[00:03:16.450]I'm also part of an all women's running team
[00:03:19.020]who is called Run Long and Perspire.
[00:03:21.528](audience laughing)
[00:03:22.361]We're part of the Market to Market,
[00:03:23.194]we run from Omaha to Lincoln.
[00:03:24.540]And at every one of our stops we do our pew pew,
[00:03:26.790]laser phasers as we tag into our next runner.
[00:03:30.200]So I am legit as fan in that way.
[00:03:33.130]Although I did discover in this process,
[00:03:35.450]I am not a mega fan, as so many people are
[00:03:38.300]'cause boy did I find some great fan site
[00:03:40.240]to do a lot of this research.
[00:03:41.410]It was really fun to dive down that rabbit hole
[00:03:43.710]and to take a look at this.
[00:03:46.640]So when I usually talk about space law
[00:03:49.030]and being a space lawyer, I have this slide.
[00:03:51.320]And it's normally a guy in a suit
[00:03:53.270]who's wearing the Darth Vader helmet, right.
[00:03:55.430]Obviously I couldn't do that here
[00:03:56.730]but it's a joke about what do think a space lawyer is,
[00:03:58.880]that sounds so made up, and I realize that,
[00:04:01.550]it sounds super made up.
[00:04:02.748]But I found a Star Trek space lawyer,
[00:04:05.140]which was harder than you might think.
[00:04:07.200]Lots of politicians, lots of people who are philosophers,
[00:04:10.380]talking about ethics, not a lot of lawyers
[00:04:12.377]in the Star Trek universe, like lawyers proper, right.
[00:04:15.750]So I want to introduce you to Colonel Worf, right,
[00:04:18.680]this is from the original series,
[00:04:19.730]he defended Captain Kirk.
[00:04:21.710]He was also played by Michael Dorn,
[00:04:24.100]which, if you're a Next Generation fan,
[00:04:26.210]you know also played Lieutenant Worf
[00:04:28.710]on The Next Generation episode.
[00:04:30.320]And according to the fan universe, Colonel Worf
[00:04:33.380]is Lieutenant Worf's grandfather.
[00:04:34.700]So there's one of your fun facts about a lawyer in space law
[00:04:38.027]and lawyer in Star Trek, I found one.
[00:04:40.930]But jokes aside, in the real world,
[00:04:42.570]what he heck is a space lawyer, right?
[00:04:45.526]Most space lawyers, and when I say space lawyer,
[00:04:48.020]I mean attorneys that are working in the aerospace industry
[00:04:50.500]and that could mean government,
[00:04:51.720]that could mean military,
[00:04:52.740]that could mean private sector aerospace companies.
[00:04:55.501]But they're really not practicing space law day to day.
[00:04:58.944]Right, most of these lawyers are doing transactional law,
[00:05:01.820]procurement, export control and compliance.
[00:05:04.348]The standard things that keep a business running.
[00:05:06.820]A good example of this, a friend of mine,
[00:05:08.259]she's a general council at Blue Origin,
[00:05:10.320]last time I saw her, the dealing that she had all day,
[00:05:13.020]that she was messing with was a drunk driver
[00:05:14.810]had hit a fence next to one of their warehouses
[00:05:17.200]and she was going through a liability issue
[00:05:19.120]with the insurance company to pay for the repairs, right.
[00:05:20.513]That could be any company, that doesn't have to be
[00:05:23.100]a cool company like Blue Origin,
[00:05:24.800]that's Jeff Bezos' aerospace company.
[00:05:28.984]It happens to be a super cool aerospace company
[00:05:31.110]but that's the kind of legal work you'd be doing
[00:05:32.660]as in-house council virtually anywhere, right.
[00:05:35.470]They're supportive of the mission,
[00:05:36.550]space law might impact some of the things that they do
[00:05:38.686]but first and foremost, they're just good lawyers.
[00:05:41.200]And generally they're business
[00:05:42.410]or transactionally focused lawyers.
[00:05:44.190]Very few space lawyers are kind of in that litigation subset
[00:05:47.470]although some and that's growing and changing
[00:05:49.110]as we're seeing more lawsuits in the space industry.
[00:05:52.020]Now, there are people who do use space law all the time,
[00:05:54.631]right, you have your policy directors,
[00:05:56.920]you have your legislative liaisons,
[00:05:58.046]I could come up with distinctions between those two,
[00:06:00.830]and technically they are but we can wrap them
[00:06:02.660]in the same bow as lobbyist, right?
[00:06:04.530]So these are the people who are on the hill
[00:06:06.210]representing their company, their client,
[00:06:08.640]whoever they might be,
[00:06:09.473]whatever sector they're in, talking about space law.
[00:06:12.020]And then of course, academics who write in space law.
[00:06:13.960]I definitely talk about space law every day
[00:06:15.600]with our students and of course
[00:06:17.110]when I make silly lectures about television shows,
[00:06:18.990]also do a lot of space law work.
[00:06:20.480]So, use it quite a bit.
[00:06:23.240]Alright, so what is space law?
[00:06:24.740]Now I've told you that space lawyers don't do it,
[00:06:27.300]so what is it?
[00:06:28.583](laughing) Right?
[00:06:29.416]Space law 101, it's a thing, like a real thing.
[00:06:33.560]I like to think that most of my colleagues
[00:06:35.060]in other areas of the law don't have to spend
[00:06:37.020]quite as much time validating
[00:06:38.600]that the area of law that they research in
[00:06:40.093]is an actual thing. (laughing)
[00:06:42.490]But we do and that's alright.
[00:06:43.610]It does not exist in the hypothetical,
[00:06:46.130]there's a billion dollar satellite industry out there.
[00:06:48.430]So yes, with occasionally in space lawyers,
[00:06:50.760]and certainly what you see usually in media
[00:06:53.070]are these kind of fantastical questions
[00:06:54.920]of what if there was a colony are Mars
[00:06:57.030]and someone murdered someone else.
[00:06:58.140]And we can talk in the hypothetical
[00:06:59.560]and certainly it's fun to play there,
[00:07:01.090]lawyers love that.
[00:07:02.013]But there's also a real life business and industry
[00:07:05.180]that relies on this body of law
[00:07:07.060]and it's much older than most people think, right.
[00:07:09.570]So, it's absolutely a built out,
[00:07:11.500]fundamental area of the law.
[00:07:12.858]My personal way of describing this
[00:07:15.700]and this is something that nerdy, lawyer scholars debate,
[00:07:17.990]I have used space law as a subset
[00:07:19.410]of international law, right.
[00:07:20.950]It's primarily international law
[00:07:22.437]and that international law then dictates
[00:07:24.840]a lot of the national space legislation
[00:07:27.020]we see in space faring countries.
[00:07:29.010]So, I view it as this type of international law
[00:07:31.312]and then we can think about it
[00:07:32.900]as it pivies into different national space legislations
[00:07:35.683]and different space regimes, in many different countries.
[00:07:39.308]So there are multiple treaties in several significant
[00:07:41.910]domestic legislation or regulations, excuse me,
[00:07:44.300]here in the United States.
[00:07:45.270]And tonight I'm gonna pull some key concepts
[00:07:47.160]from some of those and compare them
[00:07:48.896]to the Star Trek universe.
[00:07:50.320]Now, for the most part I can't do this
[00:07:52.320]letter to letter because our universes don't function
[00:07:54.540]in quite the same way but I have found some good themes.
[00:07:57.270]And I'm really bummed that I don't have
[00:07:59.090]ten hours with all of you 'cause I love this stuff.
[00:08:01.920]I would love to get into the nuances
[00:08:03.240]of the Outer Space Treaty
[00:08:04.160]and a lot of these different agreements and conventions
[00:08:06.360]and we simply can't do that.
[00:08:07.360]That is probably not what you came here tonight for anyway.
[00:08:10.343]But certainly, send me an email,
[00:08:12.010]I'll send you the whole treaty.
[00:08:13.292](audience laughing)
[00:08:14.440]But tonight we're gonna focus
[00:08:15.273]kind of on the Star Trek universe
[00:08:16.380]but I want us to look a that world compare.
[00:08:18.590]Comparative law study is also a thing, right.
[00:08:21.870]And this sounds very academic, right.
[00:08:24.960]This is a legal scholar who's really focused
[00:08:27.770]entirely on the study of the differences
[00:08:29.520]and similarities in the legal systems
[00:08:31.320]of different countries.
[00:08:32.430]That sounds maybe interesting but pretty academic in nature.
[00:08:35.390]It's becoming more and more practical,
[00:08:37.533]this is absolutely important.
[00:08:39.799]In the last 20, 50 years, we have become
[00:08:42.690]such a globalized planet that almost any practice area
[00:08:46.700]is impacted by the legal structure of another country.
[00:08:48.940]And that's not just comparing the definition of murder
[00:08:50.870]to the definition of murder, right.
[00:08:52.510]That's also the system as it builds up,
[00:08:54.480]how the court systems translate, what's authoritative,
[00:08:55.869]what's not, how their laws are made,
[00:08:58.743]what the impetus for those are.
[00:09:00.740]So this is a really important area of study.
[00:09:02.970]And so, as I was thinking about this presentation,
[00:09:05.600]I thought, how can I bastardize this important area of law
[00:09:08.740]and boil it down to something about Star Trek?
[00:09:10.536](audience laughing)
[00:09:11.632]So here's what I came up with.
[00:09:13.400]Right, here's what we're gonna do tonight
[00:09:14.700]as we think about comparative law
[00:09:16.250]as it relates to real space law and Star Trek.
[00:09:18.170]We're gonna do who, who regulates space,
[00:09:20.690]who makes the laws, who's creating the laws.
[00:09:22.562]We're gonna do why, I think this is something
[00:09:24.900]we don't think about enough
[00:09:25.920]when we think about the law, why,
[00:09:28.080]what's the ethical reason,
[00:09:29.754]what's the intellectual imperative,
[00:09:31.360]what's the impetus for those laws?
[00:09:32.810]And then how, how do you write it,
[00:09:34.880]how do you craft, how do you enforce it,
[00:09:36.450]how does it work, right.
[00:09:38.230]So that's how we're gonna break down
[00:09:39.620]thinking about and comparing about these two bodies of law.
[00:09:43.520]So who, let's first start with who are we talking about
[00:09:46.800]when it comes to make laws.
[00:09:47.633]I tired to throw in some funny jokes,
[00:09:48.745]this one doesn't really fit very well,
[00:09:51.010]but I just thought it was really funny.
[00:09:52.278](laughing)
[00:09:53.196]So this is our who.
[00:09:55.080]We're gonna start with United Federation of Planets
[00:09:56.890]and then the United Nations.
[00:09:57.830]So the Federation of Planets is this interstellar alliance
[00:10:00.297]composed of governments and they report
[00:10:03.630]to basically operate semi-autonomously
[00:10:05.930]but it is a single centralized government.
[00:10:07.864]The United Nations, 193 member states,
[00:10:10.604]takes on many issues confronting humanity
[00:10:13.313]in the 21st century.
[00:10:14.440]Most of you are probably generally familiar
[00:10:15.930]with at least who the United Nations is, right.
[00:10:19.060]But they are pretty distinct.
[00:10:20.004]United Federation of Planets is a centralized government,
[00:10:23.810]it's a unified executive branch,
[00:10:25.550]there is a president, right.
[00:10:27.510]A representative republic is generally
[00:10:29.520]what we would model that off.
[00:10:30.410]And I felt this was interesting, I didn't realize
[00:10:32.210]that there is a constitution.
[00:10:33.510]They don't talk about it in a whole lot of episodes,
[00:10:35.299]but the, certainly, most of the different things
[00:10:38.650]that we know about Star Trek universe
[00:10:40.040]pull from this constitution.
[00:10:41.770]And it's really, particularly focused
[00:10:43.360]on enumerating rights for sentient beings.
[00:10:45.295]Now, over at the United Nations,
[00:10:47.130]we have this general assembly.
[00:10:48.420]So we do have this idea of one nation, one vote.
[00:10:51.286]Similar of a representative republic
[00:10:53.298]but as far as a centralized government body,
[00:10:56.060]that's simply no there, right.
[00:10:57.710]This is a diplomacy mechanism, still very important
[00:10:59.906]but not quite the same enforcement mechanism.
[00:11:01.664]We have this idea of sovereign equality.
[00:11:05.050]We, in the United Nations, value deeply sovereign equality
[00:11:08.360]between all the different member states.
[00:11:10.190]And just to be really clear on this,
[00:11:11.610]when I'm talking international law,
[00:11:13.050]I'm gonna use the word state.
[00:11:14.410]I'm not talking about Alabama versus Georgia,
[00:11:16.537]those sorts of things, it means country,
[00:11:18.290]right, in this context.
[00:11:19.480]I'm sure many of you knew that
[00:11:20.430]but I didn't when I started law school
[00:11:22.100]and it led to lots of confusion.
[00:11:23.280]So I'll clarify it now. (laughing)
[00:11:25.430]But there's no central government
[00:11:26.570]and we have this idea of the sovereign equality, right.
[00:11:28.810]All these different member states have an equal vote
[00:11:31.280]and equal say and we take their sovereignty seriously.
[00:11:33.580]They each have their own government.
[00:11:35.270]We do have a sort of judiciary,
[00:11:37.720]and I say sort of,
[00:11:38.560]we have the International Court of Justice
[00:11:40.180]that's part of the United Nations.
[00:11:41.950]Now, when two countries take a claim or an issue
[00:11:44.350]in front of the ICJ,
[00:11:45.830]in order for that to be binding,
[00:11:47.300]both countries have to agree to that.
[00:11:49.220]Sometimes that works very well, sometimes it doesn't.
[00:11:51.653]That decision, whether they've agreed
[00:11:53.710]for it to be binding or not can be persuasive.
[00:11:55.656]Now, you might be saying persuasive to who
[00:11:57.690]if it's not binding?
[00:11:58.930]Well, other countries if they're picking sides
[00:12:00.670]might think, well the ICJ thought about this really hard
[00:12:03.420]and this is what the ICJ thinks
[00:12:05.260]the outcome of this should be, right.
[00:12:07.890]Sometimes they think it's going to be binding
[00:12:09.620]and then they decide it's not.
[00:12:10.610]We did have a space case in front of the ICJ in the '80s,
[00:12:13.190]there was Russian satellite that came down,
[00:12:14.670]had nuclear propulsion, spread across the Canadian Tundra.
[00:12:17.500]Canada spent millions of millions of dollars
[00:12:20.440]to clean this up, it's in front of the ICJ,
[00:12:22.520]Russia, of course, does not think this should be binding
[00:12:24.820]'cause they think they spent money
[00:12:25.653]they didn't need to spend they didn't need to spend,
[00:12:26.486]so on, so forth.
[00:12:27.440]It ended up going into closed door arbitration,
[00:12:29.854]eventually was settled.
[00:12:31.540]But, ICJ, what they said might have been persuasive
[00:12:34.160]but it wasn't actually a binding authoritative outcome.
[00:12:36.940]So you might be saying to yourself,
[00:12:37.880]well then, what is international law mean,
[00:12:39.890]right, if there's no judiciary?
[00:12:41.171]How do we enforce international laws?
[00:12:43.330]Well, diplomacy, right,
[00:12:44.840]we have sanction mechanisms
[00:12:45.865]and then at the the end of the day
[00:12:47.010]we have military action, right,
[00:12:48.310]that's how we enforce international law and agreements
[00:12:50.490]with our alleys and our adversaries.
[00:12:52.730]One thing that they do have in common,
[00:12:54.030]I thought this was a really fun fact,
[00:12:55.490]both of the charters were signed
[00:12:56.900]in San Francisco, California.
[00:12:58.860]Which I'm gonna guess is a nice little nod
[00:13:00.444]to the UN from Star Trek.
[00:13:03.710]So within the United Nations we do have
[00:13:05.270]the Office of Outer Space Affairs.
[00:13:06.770]A lot of people don't realize that there is a space office
[00:13:09.050]at the UN, right.
[00:13:09.950]And they're really cool, and they're super nice people.
[00:13:12.600]And they work to promote international cooperation
[00:13:15.110]in the peaceful use and exploration of space,
[00:13:16.549]and in the utilization of space science and technology.
[00:13:19.600]The other piece they do
[00:13:20.433]that it think is particularly interesting
[00:13:21.740]is if a member state does not currently have
[00:13:23.647]a space regulatory system, they are a resource
[00:13:27.150]and an aid in crafting one.
[00:13:28.520]Which is to say, here's how you can build
[00:13:30.055]the laws that apply in your nation
[00:13:32.061]that are compliant with international law
[00:13:33.990]and the international treaties, right.
[00:13:35.500]So there's this resource here
[00:13:36.680]for states that want to get into the space faring business.
[00:13:40.550]Alright, so that's our who.
[00:13:41.830]Now let's talk about our why.
[00:13:43.380]Why does the United Nations have you know,
[00:13:44.890]so why do we have these treaties,
[00:13:46.180]why do we do the things that we do?
[00:13:47.940]And the why I think is really important.
[00:13:50.180]Here's a very, very tiny little story for you.
[00:13:51.910]Imagine me at a dinner party,
[00:13:53.070]I have my glass of wine in one hand,
[00:13:54.690]I have my cheese tray in the other,
[00:13:55.880]I have the traditional quandary of how do I eat the cheese,
[00:13:57.970]I'm holding the wine.
[00:13:58.803]Then I have this person talking to me.
[00:14:00.296]And they, first of all, don't believe space law's a thing,
[00:14:03.040]so we have to get passed that.
[00:14:04.090]So I hae 30 seconds of it's a thing,
[00:14:05.530]here's the laws, blah, blah, blah.
[00:14:06.520]And then why do you lawyers have to regulate everything?
[00:14:10.950]We get this a lot, right.
[00:14:12.140]You love laws, you love rules, what's your issue,
[00:14:14.580]it should be the wild west.
[00:14:16.080]Everybody wants everything to be the wild west.
[00:14:17.630]Cyber law, space law, should be the wild west.
[00:14:19.750]Why are there rules about this?
[00:14:21.890]And I'll say it, it's a fair critique, right.
[00:14:24.410]There's a thought to that
[00:14:25.570]but it should be open, wide,
[00:14:27.700]we shouldn't have all these laws,
[00:14:28.740]we shouldn't have all these restrictions,
[00:14:29.800]we shouldn't have all these rules.
[00:14:31.130]I can accept that and I can understand that
[00:14:32.680]as an ideal and as a philosophy.
[00:14:34.670]But there are reasons that we have laws and regulations.
[00:14:37.736]The first one, and I really like this quote,
[00:14:40.610]this is a real quote from John Young,
[00:14:41.930]he's one of the first astronauts on the shuttle program.
[00:14:44.477]"Anyone who sits on top of the largest hydrogen-oxygen
[00:14:47.147]"fueled system in the world,
[00:14:48.317]"knowing they're going to light the bottom,
[00:14:50.827]"and doesn't get a little worried,
[00:14:52.267]"does not fully understand the situation."
[00:14:55.620]This is dangerous as hell, right,
[00:14:57.690]these are flying bombs.
[00:14:59.350]Whether they blow up on the launchpad,
[00:15:00.953]whether there's a crewed mission on board,
[00:15:03.460]whether or not it crashes or it breaks apart
[00:15:05.861]over the ocean, over environment,
[00:15:08.330]over a crowded urban area.
[00:15:09.998]This is dangerous and we have a sorted history,
[00:15:13.410]but a history in our country, like many other countries
[00:15:16.010]of regulating highly hazardous
[00:15:17.520]and dangerous activities, right.
[00:15:19.410]Look at the aviation industry, look at trains,
[00:15:21.130]look at mining, look at explosions, all these other things.
[00:15:23.211]We regulate for the safety of our citizens,
[00:15:26.090]that's important, right,
[00:15:27.440]we want to protect everybody.
[00:15:28.730]The other reason that we regulate in space
[00:15:30.553]is because we said we would
[00:15:32.550]in the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:15:33.850]I'll get to that here in a little bit
[00:15:35.250]but basically we have international obligations that say,
[00:15:38.320]fine, we'll pay attention
[00:15:39.670]to what Americans are doing in space.
[00:15:42.231]Great, so how about Star Trek?
[00:15:43.370]Why do they have rules about the law in Star Trek?
[00:15:46.428]I love this quote, this sort of like prequel episode
[00:15:49.140]that I hadn't seen until I was reading research for this
[00:15:51.020]and then I had to find it in YouTube and watch it.
[00:15:53.537]"Someday, my people are going to come up
[00:15:55.757]"with some sort of doctrine, something that tells us
[00:15:58.337]"what we can and can't do out here,
[00:16:00.157]"something we should and shouldn't do.
[00:16:01.817]"But until somebody tells me that they've drafted that,"
[00:16:03.864]wait for it, ready, "directive,
[00:16:07.817]"I'm goin to have to remind myself every day
[00:16:09.497]"we didn't come out here to play God."
[00:16:11.250]Right, if you're a Star Trek fan,
[00:16:12.260]obviously you know the hint is there,
[00:16:14.320]someones gonna draft some sort of directive, right.
[00:16:16.700]But here the idea is, is that we're concerned
[00:16:19.870]about us playing God, right, that we do not rule space,
[00:16:24.460]as a species, as a group, as a government,
[00:16:26.870]however you want to phrase that, right.
[00:16:28.670]But that space should be this open place for all.
[00:16:33.270]Alright so that was our who,
[00:16:34.103]we have the United Federation of Planets,
[00:16:35.407]we have the United Nations.
[00:16:37.070]We have our why, right, these are explosions,
[00:16:38.870]this is war, we're all very scared of war, right.
[00:16:40.893]I didn't really hit on space debris
[00:16:43.210]but this is in here too, right,
[00:16:44.630]wanting to keep space clean,
[00:16:46.360]keeping it pristine, being worried about debris.
[00:16:48.720]We kind of see that general theme come up in both of those.
[00:16:52.600]So how, how do we regulate space?
[00:16:55.070]Well, here on earth, earth side,
[00:16:56.400]when I first practiced I kept saying real world
[00:16:58.359]and I just couldn't stop thinking
[00:16:59.930]of the theme song from the show on MTV in the '90s.
[00:17:02.430]So now I've been saying earth side,
[00:17:03.850]which sounds very stupid as well, I agree.
[00:17:06.070]But it somehow feels better in my head.
[00:17:07.650]So earth side, on the 1967 Outer Space Treaty,
[00:17:09.897]it was 107 countries whoa re parties to this treaty.
[00:17:13.230]This includes all the space faring countries.
[00:17:15.030]If you're anything like me, I thought,
[00:17:16.380]there's a 107 space faring countries?
[00:17:18.750]Right, on my hands I can maybe tick off 10.
[00:17:21.130]This includes everyone who's partnered together, right,
[00:17:23.420]so all of the companies that are part of
[00:17:24.670]the European Space Agency.
[00:17:25.648]This also includes small satellite launches,
[00:17:28.220]anything like that, telecommunications practices.
[00:17:30.980]So there's actually quite a few countries
[00:17:32.800]in the space game.
[00:17:34.540]Now, an interesting part of the history of this treaty
[00:17:37.230]is that it's absolutely born of cold war origins.
[00:17:40.350]Right, think about 1967, we're in the middle of space race.
[00:17:43.810]People have gone into space, they've orbited
[00:17:45.620]but it's still two years
[00:17:46.560]before we're gonna land on the moon.
[00:17:48.176]Lots of tension, lots of fear about war and space,
[00:17:50.970]particularly lots of fear about nuclear war in space
[00:17:53.649]and our tensions with the Russians, particularly,
[00:17:55.910]are problematic and scary for a lot of people.
[00:17:58.547]That is what this treaty is born of
[00:18:00.740]and it's all over the face of it.
[00:18:02.240]It's very thoughtful about peaceful purposes
[00:18:04.790]and about restricting certain types of activities in space.
[00:18:07.856]And I think that's really interesting,
[00:18:10.490]most legal scholars, I think would agree,
[00:18:12.460]and I tend to agree, that if something like this,
[00:18:14.750]even with modernized language
[00:18:15.900]was to go up in front of the UN now,
[00:18:18.830]it would never, never happen.
[00:18:21.170]We would never get the signatures,
[00:18:22.790]the restrictions this places on activities
[00:18:25.460]in outer space is significant to a point
[00:18:27.730]that I don't think most modern countries
[00:18:29.190]would be willing to stop their activities
[00:18:31.747]or refrain from activities in this way again.
[00:18:34.550]So I think it's a really interesting political time
[00:18:36.340]in which this treaty is born
[00:18:37.490]and it's not without it's criticisms
[00:18:39.240]but for the large part, it has worked, right,
[00:18:41.200]we haven't had a major war in space.
[00:18:42.900]And it's helped not have certain weapons in space.
[00:18:44.940]So it's kind of an interesting treaty to look at,
[00:18:47.040]it's also a pretty short one and a pretty easy read.
[00:18:49.320]So if you're intimidated by reading a piece
[00:18:50.990]of international law, if you go to the UN website,
[00:18:53.020]look this up, it's not very long,
[00:18:54.620]it's pretty easy to read, it's a good entry level treaty
[00:18:57.019]to get an idea of what that looks like.
[00:19:00.410]So in the Star Trek universe,
[00:19:01.460]we have the Prime Directive,
[00:19:02.630]this is also know as the Starfleet General Order 1,
[00:19:05.100]or the Non-Interference Directive.
[00:19:07.090]Basically it's the embodiment of this ethical philosophy
[00:19:09.610]about non-interference with other cultures
[00:19:11.710]and civilizations.
[00:19:14.020]Here's the language, no Starship may interfere
[00:19:16.520]with the normal development of any alien life or society.
[00:19:19.770]The lawyer in me immediately wants to define interference
[00:19:22.210]and alien, right.
[00:19:23.100]Anytime I've got a verb and a noun, I need a definition.
[00:19:25.199](laughing) Right.
[00:19:26.370]And we get there a little bit, we'll jump into it.
[00:19:28.270]I at least go something for interference.
[00:19:29.880]But I started to work on this,
[00:19:31.050]here's your actual language of what that means.
[00:19:32.600]Alright, so this really big motivation
[00:19:34.798]on preserving cultural autonomy.
[00:19:39.390]So what I've done, I can't compare line for line
[00:19:42.860]the Prime Directive to the Outer Space Treaty
[00:19:44.590]because they simply don't line up that way
[00:19:46.200]'cause they're coming from different universes
[00:19:47.800]with different problems to address.
[00:19:49.460]So what I found were themes, right.
[00:19:51.820]Themes of what we're worried about
[00:19:53.110]to what's they're worried about in the Star Trek universe.
[00:19:55.234]So I'm gonna start with peaceful purposes.
[00:19:56.970]So on this side we have things that are actual articles
[00:19:59.500]from the Outer Space Treaty, paraphrased language though.
[00:20:01.787]Exploration shall benefit all.
[00:20:04.053]Moon and other celestial bodies may only be used
[00:20:06.210]for peaceful purposes.
[00:20:07.479]Space and celestial bodies are free
[00:20:09.310]for all to explore.
[00:20:10.420]So again, you see that peaceful purpose language
[00:20:12.490]and that idealism of how we're using space.
[00:20:15.292]Caveat on some of this, that exploration shall benefit all.
[00:20:18.061]That doesn't mean financially or directly, right,
[00:20:20.035]we're under no obligation after a mission
[00:20:22.810]to come back to earth and share
[00:20:24.130]that with all our adversaries or anything like that.
[00:20:26.740]But the idea here is that our exploration
[00:20:28.670]should be to the benefit of our species
[00:20:30.400]and to the benefit of human kind,
[00:20:31.750]potentially to the planet, those sorts of ideals.
[00:20:34.324]We also can't stop other people from exploring space,
[00:20:37.178]right, we can't say that this nation as a sanction,
[00:20:40.230]is not long allowed to act in space, right.
[00:20:42.550]We can't do that, space is open for all states to explore.
[00:20:47.020]On the other side we have the Prime Directive.
[00:20:48.790]It's not just a set of rules it's a philosophy.
[00:20:50.970]Of course I had to go to Captain Picard, right.
[00:20:52.887]"History has proven again and again
[00:20:54.187]"that whenever mankind interferes
[00:20:55.587]"with a less developed civilization,
[00:20:57.067]"no matter the intentions,
[00:20:57.986]"the results are invariably disastrous."
[00:21:01.550]So again, we have this idea of you may not go rule space,
[00:21:04.860]it's not yours for keeps, it's for everybody.
[00:21:07.770]Right, don't ruin it for anyone else.
[00:21:09.340]So with this, peaceful purposes, sort of idealism
[00:21:11.932]and theme that we see in both documents.
[00:21:14.540]I really liked this Gene Roddenberry quote,
[00:21:16.129]"The strength of the civilization
[00:21:17.817]"is not measured by its ability to fight wars,
[00:21:19.987]"but rather by its ability to prevent them."
[00:21:22.930]We definitely see that in Outer Space Treaty, right,
[00:21:25.220]we're very interested in peaceful purposes
[00:21:27.310]and we absolutely see that
[00:21:28.550]in the Prime Directive philosophy, right.
[00:21:33.420]So keep it pristine, states shall avoid
[00:21:35.450]harmful contamination of space,
[00:21:36.880]this is an actual provision in the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:21:38.668]One that we kind of play a little fast and loose with,
[00:21:40.940]not just us many states, you've probably heard about
[00:21:43.410]space debris being an issue.
[00:21:45.390]Satellite, if you saw the movie Gravity,
[00:21:47.010]it's a bit of a, not quite arcuate,
[00:21:50.100]but it's getting there, right.
[00:21:52.030]We're not, that's not too far, sadly, right.
[00:21:54.450]So this is an interesting issue that we're dealing with
[00:21:55.943]and wrestling with as part of the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:21:58.640]It's really a diplomatic and a political issue
[00:22:00.520]more than it's actually a technological issue for us.
[00:22:02.475]And over here, I kind of found some ways
[00:22:05.180]that we're actually defining what interference means, right.
[00:22:08.077]"No Identification of self or mission.
[00:22:09.846]"You cannot interfere with the social development
[00:22:13.026]"of said planet.
[00:22:14.213]"No references to space, other worlds,
[00:22:15.046]"or advanced civilizations."
[00:22:17.061]So that's what we mean when we say don't interfere.
[00:22:18.390]So the theme that I pulled out of this
[00:22:19.760]was keep it pristine, don't mess with it,
[00:22:22.110]let it do its own thing.
[00:22:23.810]Right, don't throw your trash in space
[00:22:26.060]and don't taint these civilizations in this way.
[00:22:30.070]So what happens when we don't do what we're supposed to?
[00:22:32.500]Right, I'm gonna look at liability in Outer Space Treaty
[00:22:35.310]and I want to look at failure to conform
[00:22:36.907]in the Prime Directive.
[00:22:38.260]I also liked this meme 'cause I feel like Data
[00:22:39.940]could get pretty funky
[00:22:41.000]before he would actually get into trouble.
[00:22:44.740]So as far as liability in the Outer Space Treaty,
[00:22:47.030]states are responsible for any national activity,
[00:22:49.120]this includes non-government activities.
[00:22:51.510]And activities of non-government entities
[00:22:53.490]must be authorized and supervised by the state.
[00:22:55.720]Too many of my students were in there
[00:22:56.570]might be pointing at them and saying verbs, right.
[00:22:59.290]It means we are obligated to do something, right.
[00:23:01.745]Those are our obligations.
[00:23:03.680]So what this is about is this idea of liability
[00:23:06.490]and the concern was that if you have some, you know,
[00:23:08.580]if you got Billy Bob Thorton
[00:23:09.660]building the rocket in his garage,
[00:23:10.906]he manages to do it and it bashes into a Chinese satellite.
[00:23:14.053]Billy Bob probably can't pay China the several million
[00:23:17.557]to billions of dollars to make up for that loss.
[00:23:20.899]So they're gonna come to the United States
[00:23:22.611]'cause we're all parties of the Outer Space Treaty
[00:23:24.740]and we said that we would take care of our citizens, right.
[00:23:27.710]And so because we are obligated
[00:23:29.430]for the actions of our citizen
[00:23:30.760]or our companies or any of the launches
[00:23:33.730]that we license, we regulate them.
[00:23:37.070]Right, we authorize and supervise those activities.
[00:23:39.213]It's kind of a risk sharing regime
[00:23:41.820]and the licensing process where there's insurance.
[00:23:44.140]There is a certain amount of indemnification
[00:23:46.080]or a point where the government
[00:23:47.610]will actually pay for some losses, right.
[00:23:49.680]But we have a responsibility
[00:23:52.280]to pay attention to what people are doing.
[00:23:53.810]A lot of this language refers,
[00:23:54.961]a lot of our domestic legislation in the US
[00:23:57.869]refers to launch and reentry.
[00:23:59.730]We're currently are squabbling
[00:24:00.910]about what they do in between that.
[00:24:03.050]It's a problem that we didn't think of
[00:24:04.240]when we wrote the legislation.
[00:24:05.331]We're regulating them when they launch,
[00:24:07.450]we're regulating them in reenter,
[00:24:08.751]no one's really paying attention
[00:24:10.130]when they're up there, right.
[00:24:10.963]So we're fixing that. (laughing)
[00:24:12.540]We're trying to fix that but generally speaking,
[00:24:14.870]we are under this authority
[00:24:16.110]to have to regulate that behavior.
[00:24:18.930]So what about if you break the Prime Directive, right.
[00:24:21.810]This is kind of almost more like military law,
[00:24:23.900]you think about somebody who would make a decision
[00:24:25.550]that was outside of the scope of the mission
[00:24:27.170]that they were under or breaking orders,
[00:24:29.000]or any of those sorts of things.
[00:24:30.050]Punishment ranging from a formal reprimand
[00:24:31.920]all the way to arrest and court marshal.
[00:24:34.040]So, it's pretty serious, right,
[00:24:35.410]this more of a criminal piece of law.
[00:24:36.872]Now, certainly violations to the Outer Space Treaty
[00:24:39.150]could in some ways, you know, rise to the level
[00:24:41.340]of criminal law or maybe your country
[00:24:43.360]could do some sort of criminal proceedings
[00:24:45.072]depending on what you did.
[00:24:46.690]But generally speaking, we're talking
[00:24:48.020]two pretty different regimes.
[00:24:50.526]So exceptions, "There can be no justice
[00:24:52.907]"so long as laws are absolute."
[00:24:54.920]The law students hate this
[00:24:56.050]and they figured it out pretty quickly
[00:24:57.300]when they're in their first and second year.
[00:24:58.610]Certainly by the time they get to evidence class
[00:25:00.760]they start to realize that law really lives
[00:25:03.210]in the exceptions, that's the point of law, right,
[00:25:06.230]is to find the exceptions
[00:25:07.063]and that's what a good lawyer does.
[00:25:09.100]How do we think about law and what's fun about that,
[00:25:11.139]I mean, it sounds cynical but the reality is,
[00:25:13.440]is that that's where the ethics live,
[00:25:14.680]that's where the philosophy lives.
[00:25:15.915]That's were we live in a gray zone instead of ai absolutes
[00:25:18.620]and that's real life.
[00:25:19.480]And that's what we want our law students to be thinking
[00:25:21.730]and that's absolutely true here as well.
[00:25:23.676]So, again, I though this was funny,
[00:25:26.540]but we're gonna talk about rescues, right.
[00:25:28.970]So one of the best ways to break the Prime Directive
[00:25:31.070]and get away with it, is when someone was about to die.
[00:25:33.176](laughing)
[00:25:34.009]I learned by combing through lots and lots
[00:25:35.660]of Star Trek episodes where they broke the Prime Directive.
[00:25:37.850]Which, by the way, is a major plot device
[00:25:39.700]in Star Trek, right, it's either the Borg
[00:25:41.240]or Prime Directive rules.
[00:25:42.455]This is really what you come down to
[00:25:44.820]when you survey Star Trek episodes
[00:25:46.660]about people when they're any point
[00:25:48.280]in trouble with Starfleet.
[00:25:50.640]So you are allowed to break the Prime Directive
[00:25:53.090]for a rescue mission, like I just said.
[00:25:54.470]The episode that I particularly looked at
[00:25:55.860]was Transfigurations.
[00:25:57.450]What happens here, the crew comes upon
[00:25:59.840]a downed space traveler or space citizen of some kind.
[00:26:03.540]He's totally incapacitated, passed out, unresponsive.
[00:26:06.240]They take him back onto the Enterprise,
[00:26:07.970]Beverly fixes him up, eventually he wakes up
[00:26:10.240]but they realize his cells are evolving and changing
[00:26:13.250]and growing and no one quite understands it.
[00:26:15.545]At the, you know, midway, intermission, third act
[00:26:18.290]of the episode or so, he figures out
[00:26:20.150]or remembers that he is part of a species from that planet
[00:26:23.560]and there was a sub set of their species
[00:26:25.490]that was on the precipice of evolving.
[00:26:27.660]They were becoming the next level of their species.
[00:26:30.420]And, of course, the government on their planet
[00:26:31.970]didn't like that, they were threatened by it
[00:26:33.340]so they were symptomatically executing
[00:26:35.640]all of the individuals who were evolving.
[00:26:37.100]And so he was escaping that persecution
[00:26:39.670]and that's when they found him.
[00:26:41.350]Now, inevitably, this government comes
[00:26:42.778]and hails the ship and says, you have to give him back,
[00:26:45.050]you're breaking the Prime Directive,
[00:26:46.170]he's a new species.
[00:26:48.007]You can't mess with him, Prime Directive.
[00:26:50.680]And of course, I'm certain that there was
[00:26:52.600]a much longer monologue that this quote
[00:26:54.510]but we find out, of course, no,
[00:26:56.430]they're never gonna give him back,
[00:26:57.810]this is within the bound of an exception
[00:26:59.490]of the Prime Directive, they're preserving this new species
[00:27:01.853]as this government has slaughtered all but one, right.
[00:27:04.690]So we see that rescues are a good reason
[00:27:06.550]to break the Prime Directive,
[00:27:07.910]that's where are our ethics live in the exceptions, right.
[00:27:10.647]Well, I am proud to say that here on earth side,
[00:27:14.110]we have also thought about rescues, right,
[00:27:16.560]this is a terrible image
[00:27:18.000]of the actual rescue and return agreement.
[00:27:21.270]But here we are, the full name of this, I love this,
[00:27:23.478]Agreement on the Rescue of Astronauts,
[00:27:25.260]and the Return of Astronauts,
[00:27:26.130]and Returns of Objects Launched into Outer Space.
[00:27:27.990]It just rolls off the tongue.
[00:27:29.210]Rescue and return agreement,
[00:27:30.374]this covers a lot of different things about
[00:27:32.665]pieces of satellites and other types of things
[00:27:35.170]but the thing that's important here
[00:27:36.530]for this particular event
[00:27:38.160]is to think about how the agreement
[00:27:40.340]provides for rescues, right.
[00:27:41.880]We can take all possible steps shall
[00:27:44.530]and in the shall world and the law world,
[00:27:46.240]it's very similar to a must,
[00:27:47.500]kind of depends on you think about it, right.
[00:27:49.375]Take all possible steps to rescue and assist astronauts
[00:27:52.054]in distress and promptly return them
[00:27:53.890]to their launching state.
[00:27:55.010]I didn't go much into the phrase launching state
[00:27:56.770]but that's a really big on in space law, right.
[00:27:58.950]A lot of your liability a lot of everything you do
[00:28:00.870]comes down to where you launched from
[00:28:02.910]and again, preserving or taking an astronaut
[00:28:05.510]back to where they went.
[00:28:06.343]So we thought this through to, rescue agreements
[00:28:08.610]also bypass some of the other political agreements
[00:28:11.050]that we have that will prevent us from messing with
[00:28:12.860]other country's space assets, right.
[00:28:14.311]I'm not supposed to go take a Russian whatever, right,
[00:28:17.951]but if there's the distressed astronaut on it,
[00:28:19.915]it might make sense for me
[00:28:21.620]and I might have an obligation, say,
[00:28:24.100]to go rescue that downed Cosmonaut.
[00:28:27.760]So let's take it to the military,
[00:28:28.751]I'm sure someone in this room
[00:28:30.670]is gonna ask me about the Space Force.
[00:28:31.810]I'm gonna beat you to the punch,
[00:28:32.643]I love talking about it, talk about it a lot.
[00:28:34.461]But I want to start with National Security Space Law,
[00:28:37.327]that's actually the name of a course we teach
[00:28:39.530]at the law school.
[00:28:40.870]National Security Space Law, we think about this a lot,
[00:28:43.310]we write on this a lot.
[00:28:44.352]But let's go back to the beginning.
[00:28:46.760]What is the military get out of space?
[00:28:48.250]I think this is what a lot of people miss,
[00:28:49.510]they think it's just a fun joke, right.
[00:28:51.730]I know that there's a Steve Carell show coming out,
[00:28:53.463]I'm hoping it'll be therapeutic for me.
[00:28:55.736]But here's what the military gets out of space, right,
[00:28:58.090]we see global communications, positioning,
[00:28:59.742]environmental monitoring, intel, surveillance,
[00:29:02.040]warning services.
[00:29:03.370]Lots of, that environmental piece,
[00:29:05.090]that's also weather, right, all of that.
[00:29:07.320]And then asset protection, retaining stability.
[00:29:09.844]What I mean when I say this
[00:29:11.563]is that a good example of this is the GPS validation
[00:29:14.080]of electronic commerce.
[00:29:15.310]When we all started using credit cards and debit cards,
[00:29:17.200]instead of cash and checks, we needed a way
[00:29:19.340]to validate and timestamp all of those purchases.
[00:29:22.370]Well, low and behold, there was already this wonderful
[00:29:24.610]GPS infrastructure that was all synchronized in time.
[00:29:27.950]And those validate and timestamp
[00:29:29.690]all of our electronic purchases.
[00:29:31.740]So if someone were to take out some of those satellites,
[00:29:33.903]it's a bit problematic to our entire economy, right,
[00:29:37.280]globally.
[00:29:38.480]So we have a stability issue of these space assets,
[00:29:41.180]whether their military space assets
[00:29:42.523]or civilian space assets, defense of them
[00:29:45.630]is relatively important to infrastructure
[00:29:48.080]and stability in our country and globally, right.
[00:29:53.290]So, we have to think about security,
[00:29:55.010]how do we keep these things safe?
[00:29:57.890]It's really hard to do.
[00:30:00.060]Now, right now, this lives at the Air Force,
[00:30:02.540]right the Air Force has control of everything
[00:30:04.840]that we are doing in Outer Space.
[00:30:06.643]And they've gotten a lot of criticism about it.
[00:30:10.130]So now, we'll go back to June of this year,
[00:30:12.170]we were all watching, I'm sure all of you were tuning in,
[00:30:14.720]streaming it on your computers,
[00:30:15.644]listening to it on your phone.
[00:30:17.350]The Space Council meeting that was focused on
[00:30:18.860]space traffic management, right.
[00:30:20.500]And we were gonna get a new STM policy directive,
[00:30:22.584]so bated at breath, listening to this,
[00:30:25.360]space traffic management, you can probably assume
[00:30:27.590]what that is, right.
[00:30:28.423]It's a lot like air traffic management,
[00:30:29.580]if your satellites are gonna run into each other,
[00:30:31.010]we tell the licensee who owns that satellite
[00:30:32.980]to move it so that they don't, right.
[00:30:35.744]A lot of people don't realize that all satellites
[00:30:37.960]have some measure propulsion systems, right,
[00:30:40.100]so you move them in our out of the way.
[00:30:42.760]So this is what this meeting's about,
[00:30:44.400]all of the space dorks are really excited,
[00:30:46.110]care deeply about STM,
[00:30:47.313]and, you know, Space Council talks,
[00:30:50.070]Vice President Pence gets up and talks,
[00:30:51.610]everyone's really happy with themselves.
[00:30:53.270]Then Trump gets up there and it's supposed to, again, be,
[00:30:55.510]and I feel, you know, maybe some people in the room knew.
[00:30:58.421]Anyone that I know at the policy office
[00:31:00.944]did not know it was coming
[00:31:02.320]and was completely caught off guard.
[00:31:04.070]Gets up there and basically says
[00:31:05.310]we're creating a third branch,
[00:31:06.860]I am directing the Pentagon to do,
[00:31:08.470]or not a third branch, a fourth, fifth branch,
[00:31:10.970]of the US military and it's gonna be called the Space Force.
[00:31:14.290]And he used the unfortunate terminology
[00:31:15.830]of separate but equally,
[00:31:16.770]which I really don't encourage you to use.
[00:31:20.822]And this is really shocking to everyone, right?
[00:31:23.510]What do you mean a separate branch of the US military?
[00:31:26.780]And then it took us about another six weeks
[00:31:28.610]to actually get a written directive on that, right,
[00:31:33.170]and started to think about that.
[00:31:34.430]Now we're seeing the Pentagon move on it,
[00:31:35.750]that policy office is basically putting
[00:31:37.220]an infrastructure in place
[00:31:38.740]that would either support the creation of this branch
[00:31:40.610]or support the infrastructure of something amended,
[00:31:44.130]similarly to it.
[00:31:45.310]An important thing to note is that
[00:31:46.980]the president can't do it unilaterally, right.
[00:31:48.601]He is the Commander in Chief of the US Military
[00:31:50.739]but to create another branch,
[00:31:52.950]congress will have to amend Title 10
[00:31:54.580]and then they'll have to fund it.
[00:31:56.020]Now that might have been a possibility
[00:31:58.050]until the most recent election.
[00:31:59.420]I don't think that's gonna make it
[00:32:00.420]through the House this year,
[00:32:01.590]I've been shocked before,
[00:32:02.760]maybe we'll end up with a Space Force in March,
[00:32:04.470]couldn't tell ya.
[00:32:05.359]But my suspicion is that's not gonna make it
[00:32:07.950]through the House in the current political situation.
[00:32:10.920]One of the ideas that has been getting a lot of traction
[00:32:14.060]that I actually think is a good one
[00:32:15.490]is for a Space Guard, similar to the Coast Guard.
[00:32:17.825]Their entire mission set is defending our coasts
[00:32:21.400]and those assets and keeping that particular boarder
[00:32:23.960]or that particular arena and space
[00:32:25.810]or war fighting area safe.
[00:32:27.221]I think it'd be interesting to see a Space Guard,
[00:32:29.540]a group that is entirely focus on space assets
[00:32:32.121]and the security of space assets
[00:32:33.900]but perhaps in times of war, would fold back
[00:32:35.207]under the US Air Force.
[00:32:36.634]I think that would be something that would be
[00:32:38.190]much easier to get through congress
[00:32:39.970]and has a lot more legs to stand on politically
[00:32:41.860]and with the general public.
[00:32:43.650]The other thing that I think is important
[00:32:44.627]and I was kind of being cavalier about this,
[00:32:46.410]but this is not a new idea
[00:32:47.470]and certainly wasn't Trump's idea.
[00:32:48.700]Maybe the name was but the idea of there being
[00:32:52.040]another branch or another service
[00:32:54.040]or a dedicated force or a dedicated corp to space
[00:32:57.220]has been kicked around for a very long time,
[00:32:58.850]including all throughout the entire Obama administration.
[00:33:01.680]Right, and we've already saw a space corp,
[00:33:05.566]the House actually approved funding for it,
[00:33:07.992]Senate, it died in the Senate,
[00:33:09.840]there was lots of friends of the Air Force
[00:33:11.230]in the Senate who didn't want something like that
[00:33:12.660]to be taken away from the Air Force,
[00:33:13.960]seen as a slight.
[00:33:15.001]Versions were both opposed and appreciated by former now,
[00:33:19.610]Secretary of Defense James Mattis.
[00:33:20.542]So this continues to really, really political
[00:33:23.275]and sort of diplomatic,
[00:33:25.230]but I thought it would be interesting
[00:33:26.220]to talk about in comparison to Starfleet, right.
[00:33:29.080]So our Space Force, if it comes to be,
[00:33:31.160]still uncertain, talked about the Space Guard.
[00:33:33.220]One interesting question here is how it relates
[00:33:35.540]to our international law obligations.
[00:33:37.470]You heard me talk about how that treaty
[00:33:38.740]is all about peace, right.
[00:33:39.919](laughing)
[00:33:41.220]Maybe this is a problem if we have space operations
[00:33:43.907]coming from the military.
[00:33:45.678]But the question is there, what does it focus it on?
[00:33:47.720]Is it focusing on security, right?
[00:33:49.980]Is this entirely defensive, is this offensive,
[00:33:52.404]what is the mission set of the Space Force?
[00:33:55.093]I also think there's a, my personal thoughts on this,
[00:34:00.240]as I write and work on this,
[00:34:01.630]we're already dealing with war in space,
[00:34:02.919]it's not people up there with guns,
[00:34:04.700]shooting, doing any of that.
[00:34:06.200]But between jamming of satellites, nudging of satellites,
[00:34:08.729]frequency interferences, this is already something
[00:34:11.320]that is a significant issue
[00:34:12.850]and space is already a war fighting regime
[00:34:15.260]as far as I address it in my research
[00:34:16.727]and the way that I write, right.
[00:34:18.570]So this is a big issue of how are defending in space
[00:34:22.060]and what does offense look like there
[00:34:24.340]and when does that rise to an aggressive act?
[00:34:26.440]Which is an important phrase when we're thinking about
[00:34:28.690]military operations.
[00:34:30.270]Now, if we look over at Starfleet,
[00:34:31.478]we have a focus on exploration, right.
[00:34:34.070]Very, very different than what we're talking about
[00:34:35.910]when we talk Space Force, right.
[00:34:37.373]Know there is a military component to Starfleet, right,
[00:34:39.720]they are defensive, I mention all the Borg episodes,
[00:34:42.860]they're defensive sometimes, right.
[00:34:44.600]This happens, they are, there's military exercise there
[00:34:47.564]but also, you know, the poor Voyager
[00:34:49.810]is lost for, what, 70 years or something?
[00:34:51.850]They were exploring, that's the goal, right.
[00:34:54.440]Is to explore new places and to meet new cultures
[00:34:56.803]and to think about space in a different way.
[00:34:58.620]Very, very different, also representative
[00:35:00.610]of multiple states compared to representative
[00:35:02.680]of one country on one planet.
[00:35:06.190]Alright, that was kind of depressing, right.
[00:35:08.540]I think it's depressing, I work in it,
[00:35:09.780]I write in it, I do it all the time,
[00:35:11.140]I find it a little depressing.
[00:35:12.450]It's hard to think about.
[00:35:13.950]One of the things that I love about science fiction
[00:35:15.898]and that made me excited to take something like this on
[00:35:18.830]is that this is a safe place for us to think about
[00:35:21.360]some of this stuff, right.
[00:35:23.219]I think a lot of us can think about
[00:35:25.240]different episodes of different pieces of science fiction
[00:35:27.310]out there that made us feel better about something
[00:35:29.770]or made us think about something in a different way.
[00:35:31.670]Or challenged some of our opinions
[00:35:33.191]but it wasn't something that was quite as defensive
[00:35:35.750]as our actually, real world politics
[00:35:37.700]and our actual real world issues
[00:35:39.127]because it wasn't our actual politics
[00:35:41.685]and our actual real world issues, right.
[00:35:43.910]It's a safe place to think about hard shit, right.
[00:35:47.228](audience laughing)
[00:35:48.061]That's what I love about Star Trek,
[00:35:49.480]that's what I love about
[00:35:50.313]a lot of the science fiction I like.
[00:35:51.600]And one of the things that I talk to my students about
[00:35:53.630]is when we're thinking about very complicated,
[00:35:55.640]international legal challenges
[00:35:57.370]and how we would think about drafting policy
[00:35:59.729]or interacting with other countries
[00:36:01.750]is to see it as an opportunity, right.
[00:36:03.820]There's nothing worse that boredom.
[00:36:05.280]And what a gift that we have to live in an era
[00:36:08.480]where we have these challenges,
[00:36:09.810]and we have these questions to ask, right.
[00:36:12.170]And we have the resources to start to answer them.
[00:36:14.050]And that's pretty damn cool if you think about it.
[00:36:16.210]Even though it's a little overwhelming
[00:36:17.370]and a little bit scary.
[00:36:18.203]So I really like this quote,
[00:36:19.657]"If we don't have obstacles we weaken and we die."
[00:36:24.050]So talking just a tiny bit, I told you I would,
[00:36:26.010]about our program in Nebraska.
[00:36:27.108]So I'll finally answer the question,
[00:36:29.090]why the hell are we in Nebraska?
[00:36:30.358](audience laughing)
[00:36:31.191]And I ended on military space law for a reason,
[00:36:33.930]we are a cool 54 minutes on a good morning
[00:36:36.740]from Offutt Air Force base.
[00:36:38.485]About 11 and half years ago, the commander there
[00:36:42.420]said to someone on the Board of Regents
[00:36:44.310]for the university, my lawyer doesn't know enough about this
[00:36:47.448]I need, I think I need and I think that there should be
[00:36:51.120]a program that teaches my JAGs
[00:36:53.750]or Judge Advocate Generals more specialty information
[00:36:56.671]about the space and the cyber mission sets.
[00:36:59.366]And from the legal perspective, not the technical,
[00:37:02.310]but the legal piece of this.
[00:37:03.524]And we happen to have a faculty member on place
[00:37:05.799]who was an international law scholar
[00:37:07.720]and had very recently started writing in space.
[00:37:09.774]Pretty significantly, and so,
[00:37:11.950]it kind of all fit together very quickly.
[00:37:13.920]About four years later, I came on board
[00:37:16.110]and I've been with program for almost seven years next year,
[00:37:18.182]since the program started.
[00:37:20.390]So we still continue to have a really close relationship
[00:37:22.386]with the US Strategic Command.
[00:37:23.817]But we weren't just in the military piece of this, right,
[00:37:26.530]we have a lot of partners in the commercial sector.
[00:37:28.318]And our program actually started with
[00:37:30.510]a really significant NASA grant.
[00:37:31.910]So we have been partners with NASA multiple times.
[00:37:33.935]Just last year, we had a quarter of a million dollar gift
[00:37:36.700]from NASA to create the Space Law Network.
[00:37:39.450]Which is a national to international network
[00:37:42.210]of space scholars and encouraging young lawyers
[00:37:45.040]to think about space and write in innovative technologies
[00:37:48.090]and do scholarly work on that subject area.
[00:37:49.865]We do run public focused annual conferences,
[00:37:54.265]we have one at US Strategic Command
[00:37:56.260]that's really about operational law.
[00:37:57.680]We do a commercial space conference every year
[00:38:00.250]in Washington D.C. open to the public.
[00:38:02.340]And then we run one in Nebraska every spring,
[00:38:05.230]coming up this April on the digital divide
[00:38:07.440]in telecommunication services for rural areas
[00:38:09.847]and how basically satellite constellations
[00:38:12.450]can help solve some of those rural divide issues
[00:38:14.580]from a policy perspective.
[00:38:16.188]So different options for law students
[00:38:17.900]and attorneys to access our curriculum
[00:38:19.330]but that's a really quick and dirty on who we are
[00:38:21.130]and what we do.
[00:38:23.100]I like to end on this slide
[00:38:24.083]particularly when I'm talking to Nebraskans, right.
[00:38:27.530]We are a state school, we are a Land Grant Institution.
[00:38:30.194]That means in many ways I work for you,
[00:38:32.220]I work for me, I'm tax payer, too, I suppose, right.
[00:38:34.870]But this is important to me
[00:38:36.860]that people know the reach that we have.
[00:38:38.320]We are one of those tiny, specialty programs,
[00:38:40.810]we're super niche, I don't have this robust,
[00:38:43.370]400 person large alumni body
[00:38:45.540]from even the last 11 years, right.
[00:38:47.740]We are quite small but even with our tiny numbers
[00:38:50.420]and even in our ridiculously niche profession
[00:38:53.410]and scholarly area, this is the reach that we have.
[00:38:56.360]This is where I have students and alumni
[00:38:57.960]and advisory board and the cutoff for their logo
[00:39:00.160]to be on this is slide is 18 months.
[00:39:02.460]Right, so some, you know, maybe an intern left somewhere
[00:39:04.580]or something like that.
[00:39:05.470]But within the last 18 months,
[00:39:06.940]someone from Nebraska has had this type of reach
[00:39:09.260]coming from our program.
[00:39:10.093]And I think that's something
[00:39:11.030]that Nebraskans should know about and be proud of
[00:39:13.750]'cause this is something that we do together
[00:39:15.270]as a university.
[00:39:16.780]So, little bit of Star Trek, little bit of space law,
[00:39:19.842]little bit of promo, I won't lie about that.
[00:39:22.405]And now I'm happy to take any questions anyone has.
[00:39:25.550]I believe, because they're recording this,
[00:39:27.070]you need to wait for her to come with you to the mic.
[00:39:31.530]Or if you're shy, you can talk to me after.
[00:39:33.546](laughing)
[00:39:36.078](crowd murmuring)
[00:39:42.290]Oh that's fine, I don't need it up behind me
[00:39:43.430]while I'm answering questions.
[00:39:47.047](mumbling from the crowd)
[00:39:50.500]So I guess, given the fact that,
[00:39:57.400]we have probably, sort of, or the beginning the process
[00:40:00.510]of actually getting out and finally colonizing places.
[00:40:02.844]Probably to have these hopefully mining asteroids
[00:40:06.030]and other things, do you think the Outer Space Treaty
[00:40:07.720]is at all still relevant or there any way to salvage it.
[00:40:10.110]Yeah.
[00:40:10.943]Or is it just basically, kind of,
[00:40:12.320]one of those things that's sort of for us
[00:40:13.487]but is now faded away into sort of irrelevancy
[00:40:16.700]as law has moved on?
[00:40:18.300]Mm-hmm, so this is like the cliche,
[00:40:21.510]traditional law answer, it depends, right.
[00:40:24.952](audience laughing)
[00:40:26.009]Lawyer.
[00:40:26.842]But duh, yeah I know, we're the worst.
[00:40:28.343]But it does, it really does just depend.
[00:40:29.660]So it think that's a really relevant comment
[00:40:32.150]and it's something that we've been arguing about.
[00:40:33.982]The 50th anniversary of the Outer Space Treaty
[00:40:35.223]was last year and so we argued about this
[00:40:37.850]at lots of conferences, right.
[00:40:38.960]How relevant is this document still?
[00:40:40.557]Now most countries still find it to be
[00:40:42.560]quite relevant, right.
[00:40:43.750]a good example of that is just in 2015,
[00:40:45.732]which given the slow pace of the law is relatively recent.
[00:40:49.620]We passed a national legislation
[00:40:51.180]that basically approved from the United States companies,
[00:40:53.389]our interpretation of the Outer Space Treaty
[00:40:55.500]to allow for space mining, right.
[00:40:57.060]We said if a US company wants to go mine an astroid,
[00:40:59.570]we'll back you up, we think that that is within the bounds
[00:41:01.730]of the Outer Space Treaty.
[00:41:02.880]Now, within, I don't know, hours of that passage,
[00:41:07.048]people in the United Nations, particularly China and Russia
[00:41:09.610]said that is outside the scope of the Outer Space Treaty,
[00:41:12.210]they absolutely cannot do that
[00:41:13.310]and they were 100% relying on that treaty.
[00:41:15.700]Now, until we actually go do it,
[00:41:17.360]there's no cause of action, right.
[00:41:19.130]So now all we've said is that we think you can do it
[00:41:21.500]but no ones actually been harmed
[00:41:22.720]'cause we haven't done it yet.
[00:41:24.140]But certainly states are still relying on it,
[00:41:25.890]of course, where they want to.
[00:41:27.300]In other ways, I think we're not using it anymore,
[00:41:30.910]right, when I talk about space debris, right.
[00:41:32.820]There's been lots of contamination issues
[00:41:34.520]and very few sanctions brought, right,
[00:41:37.050]or reactions to that.
[00:41:38.730]And I know it sounds pessimistic or cynical
[00:41:41.040]but I do contend and agree with what I said earlier
[00:41:43.550]that I don't think that treaty would pass today.
[00:41:45.061]We looked particularly when Hillary Clinton
[00:41:47.780]was Secretary of State, the amount of times and effort
[00:41:49.900]that was made with particularly the European Union
[00:41:52.400]to pass any arms control agreements
[00:41:54.100]in regards to space behavior
[00:41:55.580]and never could get anything off the ground.
[00:41:57.900]Right, and that was just some proliferation agreements
[00:42:00.260]or some arms control agreements
[00:42:01.422]that were in the spirit of the Outer Space Treaty
[00:42:04.020]but clarified some language.
[00:42:05.750]So it's problematic to figure out
[00:42:07.380]where that's going to fit and it really becomes,
[00:42:09.440]that's why space law's pretty fun, too.
[00:42:10.650]It really become diplomatic and political really quickly.
[00:42:13.849]I don't know if that answered the question or not.
[00:42:16.162](crowd mumbling)
[00:42:18.363]Thank you for having a question.
[00:42:25.540]It's okay to not have questions, it really is, I'm not hurt.
[00:42:28.392](laughing)
[00:42:33.980]So you said that the treaty
[00:42:36.240]probably wouldn't pass if it was today.
[00:42:38.420]So have nations always followed it or are there instances
[00:42:41.950]where they just do whatever they want to do,
[00:42:44.082]regardless of the treaty?
[00:42:45.790]For the most part nations have followed it,
[00:42:47.960]in some ways because the technology hasn't made it
[00:42:49.810]super easy to breach it.
[00:42:51.012](laughing) Right.
[00:42:52.183]So, for the most part, I think people honor the treaty.
[00:42:55.980]Like I mentioned the China, or not China,
[00:42:58.210]Canada, Russia case that went in front of the ICJ,
[00:43:01.360]was arbitrated, but technically
[00:43:02.460]that was all within the terms of the treaty, right.
[00:43:04.253]Russia was liable, they had to arbitrate it out,
[00:43:06.846]figure out what the liability meant
[00:43:08.860]from a financial consequence and they did it.
[00:43:11.100]So for the most part, I think that people have been
[00:43:13.410]faithful to the treaty.
[00:43:14.398]The US takes our treat responsibilities
[00:43:16.519]and our obligations under laws of armed conflict
[00:43:18.970]very, very seriously, that's a really big point
[00:43:21.210]of our policy.
[00:43:22.510]And so certainly, I feel that most of our legislation
[00:43:25.007]and activities that we do work very, very hard
[00:43:28.250]to adhere to that treaty language.
[00:43:30.270]So I would say that the majority of major space players
[00:43:32.490]do take it seriously.
[00:43:42.500]You had mentioned that
[00:43:43.560]the whole Space Force idea wasn't a new thing
[00:43:46.830]and that had been brought up.
[00:43:48.130]How long have they been talking about something like that.
[00:43:52.100]Since 1967.
[00:43:53.960]Oh, yeah, I mean the idea of war in space is not new.
[00:43:56.970]We have proof positive of interference
[00:43:59.160]during major events in Geneva, for example,
[00:44:01.250]very recently and going back much further than that, right.
[00:44:03.794]War in space is already happening,
[00:44:06.370]and legal answers to that have been unfolding
[00:44:10.510]slowing and surly over the years.
[00:44:11.910]We're part of a manual project right now,
[00:44:13.562]which is hopefully a persuasive academic document
[00:44:16.336]that different, we're working with five other institutions
[00:44:19.210]that are international, four basics and then,
[00:44:20.980]or four core and then a much bigger group
[00:44:23.140]that is five and beyond.
[00:44:24.251]To try and answer some of those questions
[00:44:27.400]to figure out what the laws of armed conflict
[00:44:29.010]look like in space.
[00:44:30.310]As far as here in the United States,
[00:44:31.914]I will tell you we're sort of behind
[00:44:33.880]some of what other people might consider our adversaries
[00:44:36.370]in having military focus on space.
[00:44:38.150]And I think since that realization has happened,
[00:44:41.530]it's been a bigger issue to discuss.
[00:44:43.959]I don't know that separate branch makes sense
[00:44:46.550]from a financial perspective for the country
[00:44:48.360]based on the size of our military currently.
[00:44:50.700]And I do think the Air Force does an excellent job
[00:44:52.630]and the service individuals I work with,
[00:44:54.373]I think, are quite dedicated
[00:44:56.030]and have a really remarkable subject matter expertise
[00:44:58.900]and knowledge there.
[00:44:59.733]So it'll be interesting to see where that ends up living.
[00:45:02.380]They are re-standing up US Space Command.
[00:45:04.630]And I say re, we did previously have a joint command
[00:45:06.836]that was focused in space at Peterson Air Force base,
[00:45:09.125]also does operations at Schriever, Vandenberg in California,
[00:45:12.353]and then Offutt here in Nebraska.
[00:45:14.120]So it's kind of a four piece command,
[00:45:16.420]mostly housed at Peterson and they are re-standing that up,
[00:45:19.062]which I think says quite a bit.
[00:45:26.310]Alright, well thank you for spending your night with me.
[00:45:28.220]If you have questions afterwords
[00:45:29.410]either about the law school,
[00:45:30.566]about the program, or about Star Trek,
[00:45:32.850]I am happy to answer them.
[00:45:34.230](laughing) Thank you.
[00:45:35.650]Thank you.
[00:45:36.788](audience applauding)

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SciPOP: Boldly Going: Star Trek Meets Real World Space Law

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