Roxane Gay

Department of English Author

10/10/2018 Added

57 Plays

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Roxane Gay visited the University of Nebraska–Lincoln on October 4, 2018 to kick off Creative Writing Month.

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[00:00:05.355]So, again, I'm Marco Abel, Chair of the English Department at UNL
[00:00:09.398]and it's my distinct pleasure to welcome you all
[00:00:12.522]to what will undoubtedly be a fantastic evening.
[00:00:15.765]I know you are not here to listen to me, so I will be very brief.
[00:00:20.422]In a moment, Professor Timothy Schaffert will introduce our guest, Roxane Gay.
[00:00:26.514]Let me just take the opportunity to thank him for all the work that he has done
[00:00:31.632]over the last two years, not only to organize tonight's event,
[00:00:35.460]which is the inaugural event of a new reading series, a creative writing
[00:00:39.418]series at UNL, but to get that entire series envisioned, if you will,
[00:00:45.445]and there is a lot of work that's going on
[00:00:48.486]and Tim has spearheaded all of it.
[00:00:51.663]He had help from other people but give him a big round of applause please.
[00:00:55.567][ applause ]
[00:01:04.085]You may or may not know that our Creative Writing program is one of
[00:01:07.940]the University's most highly regarded and visible programs.
[00:01:11.703]We believe that with the help of this new series, our program will be elevated
[00:01:16.104]even further, not least since every top writing program in the country
[00:01:20.068]has a reading series like this that brings top-notch writers
[00:01:25.456]to their respective communities. So we are really excited that
[00:01:28.504]we now too have such a reading series.
[00:01:31.512]Of course, let me thank our guest, Roxane Gay, for coming tonight
[00:01:36.379]to inaugurate this reading series. As you know, this is her
[00:01:41.265]alma mater - she is from Omaha, Nebraska, of course
[00:01:44.002]and she got degrees from UNL so we are excited that she
[00:01:48.639]found time in her schedule to come here. Excellent.
[00:01:53.120]Our goal of course with this reading series is, in the long run,
[00:01:56.555]that it will be permanently funded
[00:01:58.495]so that it can become a fixture for decades to come at UNL.
[00:02:04.934]We think the series is going to bring tremendous value
[00:02:08.956]to you, all the students who are here, and all the future students
[00:02:13.010]who will be here, to the larger community around Lincoln,
[00:02:16.503]and in Nebraska and the Midwest,
[00:02:18.814]and of course to the intellectual and creative life at Nebraska.
[00:02:23.006]We also intend for the series to support the Chancellor's efforts
[00:02:26.501]with regards to enhancing diversity at UNL.
[00:02:29.189]As a department, we have a long history of commitment
[00:02:32.258]to diversity and inclusion, and we consider this new series
[00:02:35.661]a fantastic opportunity to expose our community to a wide range of
[00:02:41.538]different voices, especially those voices that have historically been marginalized.
[00:02:47.435]That we have been able to get to where we are this evening is very much due to
[00:02:50.830]the generous support we've received from both Chancellor Green
[00:02:54.839]and especially also, from our Executive Vice Chancellor Donde Plowman,
[00:02:59.661]to whom I will cede the podium now - but not before wishing you all
[00:03:03.653]a great evening tonight and before encouraging you to pick up a flyer
[00:03:07.658]about our creative writing program outside on the tables if you haven't
[00:03:11.066]gotten one of those yet. Please turn off your cell phones - and follow the
[00:03:15.609]English department at @unlenglish. Then you can stay tuned to all our
[00:03:22.206]cool events. Thank you very much. Welcome, Donde.
[00:03:25.136][ applause ]
[00:03:30.655]Thank you very much, Marco. I wanted to say
[00:03:33.315]how much an honor it is to be helping sponsor this, and to have
[00:03:37.827]such an esteemed guest back with us.
[00:03:40.428]When someone graduates from here, goes off, does really well,
[00:03:44.729]becomes super successful, we're so honored when you'll come back
[00:03:49.004]and share who you are and share your love with us.
[00:03:53.231]I recently read the book HUNGER. Could not put it down.
[00:03:57.175]Total page turner. I was so moved by the words, the thoughts, the honesty,
[00:04:03.030]the courage - and when you look at what's happening right now,
[00:04:06.322]just even in this last week, in our country, we need people
[00:04:09.796]who help us find the courage to speak up, to speak out,
[00:04:12.689]and to have our voices heard.
[00:04:15.554]In so many ways, you've helped us with that,
[00:04:21.016]and it comes at a great moment in time
[00:04:24.152]in the history of our country and the University of Nebraska, so
[00:04:27.261]I couldn't be more happy to be sponsoring this
[00:04:30.446]and welcoming all of you to this event
[00:04:32.828]and especially welcoming our guest, Roxane Gay. Thanks.
[00:04:35.853][ applause ]
[00:04:46.742]I will be very brief. I know that you know who you're here to see.
[00:04:51.239]But I do want to thank our co-sponsors: the LGBTQA+ Resource Center,
[00:04:55.252]the Women's Center, the Women's and Gender Studies program -
[00:04:58.281]thank you all so much for helping out.
[00:05:00.533]When we first - oh! [ applause ]
[00:05:07.764]I'm Timothy Schaffert, director of the creative writing program
[00:05:10.770]and when we were first surveying faculty and students about
[00:05:14.604]who to bring in for this inaugural reading series
[00:05:17.208]devoted to the top writers of the day, to diversity and inclusion -
[00:05:21.425]and I did want to mention, I don't know if Marco did -
[00:05:24.237]that April 4th, Natasha Tretheway will be at the Sheldon
[00:05:27.214]and so you'll want to turn out for that.
[00:05:29.583]But Roxane Gay's name kept coming up again and again
[00:05:32.621]and certainly by nature of her having being born in Omaha and
[00:05:37.388]studied creative writing here as part of her master's program
[00:05:40.363]it seemed natural to bring her back.
[00:05:43.601]Ever since we announced her visit, I have been overwhelmed by
[00:05:46.903]expressions of enthusiasm, and warmth, and gratitude
[00:05:51.269]at the mere mention of her name and her work. She writes fiction,
[00:05:56.093]of course, most recently a story collection, DIFFICULT WOMEN.
[00:05:59.428]She's one of the nation's leading cultural critics, and the author of
[00:06:02.965]the iconographic essay collection BAD FEMINIST; as Donde mentioned,
[00:06:07.551]a memoirist of the acclaimed HUNGER;
[00:06:09.995]she's also an editor, having put together the collection
[00:06:12.679]NOT THAT BAD: DISPATCHES FROM RAPE CULTURE, which was recently
[00:06:15.649]published, and a pop-up magazine at Medium.com called UNRULY BODIES.
[00:06:20.934]And of course, not to mention the various other projects, such as
[00:06:23.983]writing for Marvel Comics with WORLD OF WAKANDA, as
[00:06:27.373]part of the BLACK PANTHER series.
[00:06:29.755][ applause ]
[00:06:35.302]And of course, tweeting to more than half a million followers.
[00:06:39.258]And not to put too fine a point on this,
[00:06:41.975]but I would like to mention that on November 28, 2012,
[00:06:45.044]Roxane did tweet "I would move back to Omaha in a HEARTBEAT,"
[00:06:48.391][ laughter ] with "heartbeat" in all caps,
[00:06:54.303]and then added to her tweet "I BLEED HUSKER RED," also in all caps.
[00:06:59.210]So perhaps with this room full of 600 Huskers we can certainly give Roxane Gay
[00:07:04.231]a warm welcome. So, please welcome Roxane.
[00:07:07.843][ applause ]
[00:07:17.628]Thank you, Tim.
[00:07:20.679]Always fun to - you know, the visual is great.
[00:07:24.531]It's a pleasure to be back here in Lincoln
[00:07:28.511]It's super cold, and what's weird is that yesterday, it was 90 degrees.
[00:07:33.137]And so, I fully expected today to also be 90 degrees when I left
[00:07:37.859]because I don't believe in weather reports, so I never look at the weather.
[00:07:42.987]Imagine my surprise. [ laughter ]
[00:07:45.385]I thought I would read a few chapters from HUNGER and then just do a Q&A
[00:07:50.647]because I prefer to talk with you than at you, but first,
[00:07:53.630]let's talk about Scott Frost. Um. What's happening?
[00:07:58.450][ laughter ]
[00:08:00.431]Why is it 0 and 4?
[00:08:02.555]I remember Scott Frost - I'm from Omaha and I lived in Nebraska for, oh god,
[00:08:09.600]how long? Probably 20 years. And when I was a kid Scott Frost played ball here.
[00:08:15.892]And he was good! [ laughter ]
[00:08:20.518]So, it's a mystery. And everyone was so excited, they were like
[00:08:23.639]"Scott Frost is going to save everything!"
[00:08:26.260]Hmmm.
[00:08:27.192]And I appreciate the patience that everyone's giving him, but...
[00:08:32.426][ laughter ]
[00:08:35.482]Bring back Bo Pellini!
[00:08:38.081][ laughter ]
[00:08:39.835]That's a joke.
[00:08:41.645]We all know we want Tom Osborne back. Come on.
[00:08:44.683]Anyway, I'm just really intrigued by what's going on on the football field
[00:08:48.213]because they're getting shellacked every week, and
[00:08:50.887]I feel like it's growth pains, and it's fine, but
[00:08:53.624]like, what's going on, Scott? What's going on?
[00:08:56.252]So, I'm here today to read from my latest non-fiction book.
[00:09:00.632]Just percolate on that.
[00:09:03.346]And it's called HUNGER.
[00:09:04.997]This is a book I wrote because
[00:09:07.702]as I was thinking about what I wanted to do next for non-fiction,
[00:09:10.911]when I sold this book, just before BAD FEMINIST came out
[00:09:14.172]I thought, "The thing I want to write about least is fatness." And in that
[00:09:18.202]very moment, I knew: "Oh, shit. I'm going to have to write this book."
[00:09:22.380]Because oftentimes, I have found that the intellectual projects
[00:09:25.435]that are the most intimidating and the most terrifying
[00:09:29.576]are the most intellectually satisfying as well.
[00:09:33.188]And so, I was thinking about how to write about fatness, because
[00:09:36.514]generally, when people write about weight, they write about weight loss,
[00:09:40.087]and they write about being at the end of a weight journey,
[00:09:43.098]and they stand on the cover of their book in, like,
[00:09:45.903]one leg of their formerly "fat pants," and they smile,
[00:09:49.985]and they've clearly figured everything out.
[00:09:53.013]I haven't figured everything out.
[00:09:55.128]And so, I wanted to write a book about what it is like to live in a fat body
[00:10:00.031]where you don't have all the answers; where you haven't lost enough weight
[00:10:03.775]to stand in your fat pants and smile for the camera.
[00:10:07.342]So this is the book that came about.
[00:10:10.626]It ended up being the most difficult thing I've ever written, which was
[00:10:14.064]surprising because normally writing comes very easily to me, but
[00:10:17.528]with this book I kept dragging my heels and dragging my heels and
[00:10:20.799]eventually I realized, "Oh, I just don't know what to say" or
[00:10:24.101]"I don't know how to say it." So I ended up postponing the book a year
[00:10:28.174]and then in November of 2016, I realized I was either going to
[00:10:31.568]need to write the book or return the advance
[00:10:33.957]and only one of those two things was possible.
[00:10:36.311][ laughter ]
[00:10:38.221]And so this is what I ended up coming up with.
[00:10:41.029]One of the things you often have to think about in the context of
[00:10:44.143]weight is exercise, which I hate. So this is a chapter about hating exercise.
[00:10:49.264][ cheers from audience ] All right! All my people are here.
[00:10:54.666]My disdain for sports and, now, exercise remains pure and constant.
[00:10:59.640]It feels like a waste of my time, moving around, sweating and
[00:11:02.587]hoping that something good will rise from that effort.
[00:11:05.575]Certainly, there are moments after a workout when I feel
[00:11:08.565]refreshed and powerful and healthy, but it is very easy to
[00:11:12.693]forget those moments when I need to change into workout clothes
[00:11:15.724]and go to the gym or go for a walk, or do whatever it takes to move.
[00:11:20.526]I generally dread exercise, all of it, and then I feel terrible about myself
[00:11:24.669]for being lazy, unmotivated, utterly lacking in discipline or self-regard,
[00:11:29.938]because intellectually, I know exercise is good for me.
[00:11:34.067]My hatred of exercise is unfortunate because exercise is necessary for
[00:11:38.582]the human body. It is a key component of losing weight and good health.
[00:11:42.389]Blah blah blah.
[00:11:44.249]In the corner of my bedroom sits my recumbent exercise bike.
[00:11:48.466]When I am feeling particularly motivated about exercise,
[00:11:51.468]I will ride that bike for up to an hour a day. It's a good time to
[00:11:55.376]sweat and catch up on reading. I own a few hand weights
[00:11:58.620]that I'll flex and curl when I remember to. I have a large
[00:12:01.752]inflatable ball upon which I sit to do abdominal exercises and
[00:12:05.623]squats and the like. I do not suffer from ignorance where
[00:12:08.726]exercise is concerned. Instead I suffer from inertia.
[00:12:14.023]Over the years, I have joined countless gyms. I have worked
[00:12:17.077]with personal trainers, though grudgingly, given that I hate
[00:12:20.129]being told what to do and that hatred multiplies when
[00:12:23.428]I am told what to do by someone who is thin and impossibly fit
[00:12:27.337]and usually gorgeous and charging me a significant
[00:12:30.204]amount of money on an hourly basis.
[00:12:33.562]I have a membership to Planet Fitness, though I have never
[00:12:36.532]visited the local facility. Basically, I donate $19.99 a month to their
[00:12:41.104]corporate existence. [ laughter ]
[00:12:43.929]I donate my money to the idea that I can walk into
[00:12:47.035]a Planet Fitness, anywhere in the country, should I feel so motivated.
[00:12:51.604]Like I said, I have worked with personal trainers off and on over the years,
[00:12:55.374]recognizing that perhaps the support of a professional might
[00:12:58.910]help me improve my fitness. These days, my trainer
[00:13:01.891]is a young guy born and raised in Indiana named Tijay. He is
[00:13:05.344]short and compact and has an unbelievable body. His whole
[00:13:10.560]life is fitness. He literally glows with youth, health, and the
[00:13:14.431]vigorous enthusiasm of having the world as his physical oyster.
[00:13:18.278]He is a big advocate of chicken breasts as a source of protein
[00:13:22.033]and mustard as a condiment because mustard is fat free and
[00:13:25.199]very low in calories. Not a session goes by when he mentions
[00:13:29.310]some aspect of his diet that makes me so sad for him and his palate.
[00:13:35.329]I worry that he doesn't know about spices or flavor
[00:13:39.201]or anything that makes food delicious.
[00:13:43.166]Tijay never seems to know what to make of me
[00:13:45.335]because I do not glow and I am not young and I am not cheerful.
[00:13:49.136]He runs me through my paces, always offering encouragement.
[00:13:53.071]He is not a nightmare trainer out to break my soul. He is genuine
[00:13:56.852]and kind and dedicated and I suppose I am his albatross.
[00:14:00.619]I am his project. He's just so cheerful.
[00:14:04.808]He's a true believer in the benefits of a "healthy lifestyle."
[00:14:08.479]He makes it seem so easy as I pant and sweat and ache.
[00:14:12.529]I want to murder this man when we work out.
[00:14:15.746]I am generally terrified I am going to drop dead at any moment,
[00:14:18.872]my heart pounding in my chest as I struggle to catch my breath.
[00:14:22.725]Sometimes, when he asks me to do something that seems
[00:14:25.373]well beyond my big body's abilities, I want to scream, "Don't you see
[00:14:29.524]that I'm fat?" I once asked this very question and he said,
[00:14:33.476]very calmly, "Well, that's why we're here, isn't it." And so I walked to
[00:14:37.506]my nearby water bottle, drank freely, and muttered, "Fuck you," under my breath.
[00:14:42.403][ laughter ] I curse at him a lot.
[00:14:45.832]And every time I do, he's like "Oh, Roxane, it's okay. I leave my feelings
[00:14:49.308]at the door when I come to work at 5 a.m." [ groans ]
[00:14:53.394]Right? Just, like - what? 5 a.m.? That's sleep time.
[00:14:58.243]Or bed time. But it is not "go-to-gym time."
[00:15:01.978]He's a nice guy. And it's funny, because the world is very small.
[00:15:05.171]One day, I was in Austin, Texas reading from this book when
[00:15:08.335]I was on tour, and all of a sudden a guy started laughing hysterically
[00:15:12.527]as I read that chapter and I was like Well, I mean, I'm funny but...
[00:15:16.230]that seems disproportionate. And he shouted "Tijay is my brother!"
[00:15:22.110][ laughter ]
[00:15:25.310]So, now Tijay walks around town thinking he's really the shit.
[00:15:31.358]He'll be like, "Yeah, I'm the trainer in that one book!" and I'm like,
[00:15:35.167]it's Lafayette, Indiana, my dude. They don't care.
[00:15:39.914]So, in addition to exercise, you also have to think about
[00:15:43.041]what you put into your body, and that comes with cooking.
[00:15:47.676]I love Ina Garten. Because she's perfect.
[00:15:51.134]I agree, right? She's the best. And so, this is just about Ina Garten.
[00:15:56.334]I did not think it was possible for me to love cooking.
[00:15:59.552]I did not think such a love was allowed. I did not think I could love food
[00:16:03.819]or indulge in the sensual pleasures of eating.
[00:16:06.770]It did not occur to me that to cook for myself was to care for myself or that
[00:16:11.372]I was allowed to care for myself amidst the ruin I had let myself become.
[00:16:16.121]These things were forbidden; the price I paid for being so wildly
[00:16:19.770]undisciplined about my body. Food was fuel, nothing more,
[00:16:23.606]nothing less, even if I overindulged in that fuel whenever I could.
[00:16:28.005]But then I moved to Michigan's Upper Peninsula and lived in
[00:16:31.707]a town of about 4,000 while attending graduate school.
[00:16:34.913]And after that I took a job in Charleston, Illinois, another small town.
[00:16:39.208]I became a vegetarian and realized that if I wanted to eat, I was going
[00:16:43.324]to have to prepare meals for myself or I would be relegated to a diet
[00:16:47.200]of iceberg lettuce and French fries.
[00:16:50.242]Around that same time, I started watching "Barefoot Contessa,"
[00:16:54.177]Ina Garten's cooking show on the Food Network.
[00:16:56.842]It was a time to let the world go and relax, and I have to tell you,
[00:17:00.695]I love the show. I love everything about Ina. Her hair is always
[00:17:05.458]glossy and smooth in a perfectly coiffed dark bob.
[00:17:09.029]She wears a variation on the same shirt every day.
[00:17:12.511]I learned from the FAQs on her website that her shirt is
[00:17:16.230]custom-made, but she will not divulge by whom. She is married
[00:17:21.271]to a man named Jeffrey who has a fondness for roast chicken
[00:17:25.131]and she prepares it for him every Friday.
[00:17:28.631]If the show is any indication, their relationship is an adoring one.
[00:17:32.598]Ina is intelligent and wealthy and wears these traits comfortably
[00:17:36.298]but inoffensively. Ina loves rhetorical questions.
[00:17:40.617]"How good is that?" she'll ask while sampling one of her delicious dishes.
[00:17:44.429]Or, "Who wouldn't want that for their birthday?" while planning
[00:17:47.569]a surprise for one of her coterie of elegant Hamptons friends.
[00:17:51.367]Or, "We need a nice cocktail for breakfast, don't we?"
[00:17:54.711]when preparing brunch for some of her many always attractive,
[00:18:00.012]wealthy, and very gay friends. There is one episode where
[00:18:04.368]she takes food, bagels and lox, on a trip to Brooklyn to eat
[00:18:07.968]even more food, at a farmer's market or some such.
[00:18:11.604]I love Ina Garten so much that my wireless network at home
[00:18:14.637]is named Barefoot Contessa. It's like she's watching over me.
[00:18:18.624][ laughter ]
[00:18:20.387]Ina makes cooking seem easy, accessible. She loves good ingredients—
[00:18:24.965]good vanilla, good olive oil, good everything.
[00:18:28.465]She's always offering helpful tips. For example: very cold butter
[00:18:32.658]makes pastry dough better, and a cook's best tools are clean hands.
[00:18:37.040]She uses an ice cream scoop for the dough when she's
[00:18:39.704]making muffins and reminds the audience of this trick with a
[00:18:42.694]conspiratorial grin every single time.
[00:18:46.543]When she shops in town, she always asks the butcher
[00:18:49.127]or fishmonger or baker to put her purchases on her account.
[00:18:52.576]She does not sully herself with cash.
[00:18:56.177]One day, she invites some construction workers who are
[00:18:59.329]rehabbing a windmill over for lunch— [ sighs ]
[00:19:03.227][ laughter ] It's just - white people! Ya'll are funny!
[00:19:10.195]And she decorates the table with construction accessories
[00:19:13.064]like a tarp and some paintbrushes and a bucket. As she prepares
[00:19:18.115]their meal, she makes sure to provide man-sized portions, to be followed
[00:19:21.914]by a brownie pie, a decadent affair I would eventually try and bake.
[00:19:26.348]But what I love most about Ina is that she teaches me about fostering
[00:19:30.258]a strong sense of self and self-confidence.
[00:19:33.382]She teaches me about being at ease in my body. From all appearances,
[00:19:37.634]she is entirely at ease with herself. She is ambitious and knows she
[00:19:41.641]is excellent at what she does and never apologizes.
[00:19:45.268]She teaches me that a woman can be plump and pleasant
[00:19:48.000]and absolutely in love with food. She gives me permission to love food;
[00:19:53.337]to acknowledge hungers and to try and satisfy them in healthy ways.
[00:19:57.400]She gives permission to buy the "good" ingredients she is so
[00:20:00.536]fond of recommending so that I might make good food for myself
[00:20:03.855]and the people for whom I enjoy cooking. She gives me permission
[00:20:07.155]to embrace my ambition and believe in myself. In the case of
[00:20:10.854]"Barefoot Contessa," a cooking show is far more than just a cooking show.
[00:20:15.906]So check it out. She's delightful.
[00:20:20.608]Oh, and I'll tell you a little secret. At another event in the signing line,
[00:20:24.743]a woman came up to me and she said "Oh my god do you know who Ina
[00:20:27.831]lives next door to in the Hamptons?" and I was like, "No, I've never been
[00:20:31.269]to the Hamptons." And she said "It's Donna Karan." And I said,
[00:20:36.046]"Oh? Okay." And then she said, "The shirts?" And I was like "Ohhhh!
[00:20:43.711]That's who makes those gorgeous shirts!"
[00:20:46.661]And so then I started— right? It's amazing!
[00:20:49.393]So now I get my shirts custom-made too. But not from Donna Karan.
[00:20:54.562]I'm not that shiny. [ laughter ]
[00:20:56.931]So, one of the reasons I wanted to write HUNGER is because
[00:20:59.867]oftentimes when you're fat, people project a lot of bullshit
[00:21:02.847]onto your body and they think they understand the nature
[00:21:05.546]of your fatness; why you became fat. And they never want to accept
[00:21:09.419]the truth, whether it's just "This is just who I am" or "I have a metabolic
[00:21:14.238]disorder" - and for some people, like me, it's the result of trauma.
[00:21:19.726]When I was 12 years old, I was gang raped by a group of boys
[00:21:23.400]that I went to school with.
[00:21:26.277]It was really difficult in the aftermath, because I was a good catholic girl.
[00:21:31.499]And at the time I thought I'd had premarital sex, and I thought I was
[00:21:37.331]going directly to hell. I didn't recognize that that's
[00:21:40.001]where all my friends would be. So it was very difficult.
[00:21:44.120]I was just upset and scared and hurt and so I started eating
[00:21:48.112]because that was the one thing that was easily available to me
[00:21:51.218]as a child. And I felt like the bigger I got, the safer I would become
[00:21:56.168]and this terrible thing would never happen again.
[00:21:58.805]And of course, once I realized the futility of that, and that
[00:22:02.239]that's not what safety is, it was far too late and then I
[00:22:05.871]had to figure out how I was going to undo everything I had done.
[00:22:09.906]Several years ago I decided to look up the ringleader of these boys
[00:22:14.156]and this is a chapter about that.
[00:22:18.858]Some years ago, I looked up this boy from my past, wanted to know
[00:22:23.023]what had become of him. He does not have an uncommon name,
[00:22:27.066]but his name is not John Smith, so I had a chance.
[00:22:30.747]I looked and looked and looked. It became a minor obsession.
[00:22:35.367]Every day I scrolled through the hundreds of hits that
[00:22:37.988]came up when I searched his name on Google. I tried
[00:22:40.628]combinations of his name and the state where I knew him,
[00:22:43.419]but he no longer lives there. I tried to guess what he had
[00:22:47.000]become when he grew up— my first two guesses were
[00:22:49.725]politician or lawyer, so you can probably guess the kind
[00:22:52.804]of person he is. I found him. He is neither a politician nor
[00:22:57.745]a lawyer but I was not far off. People don't change.
[00:23:02.412]I wondered if I would recognize him. I shouldn't have. There
[00:23:06.329]are some faces you don't forget. He looks exactly the same.
[00:23:10.915]Exactly. He looks older, but not by much. His hair is darker.
[00:23:15.949]I know how long it has been since I last saw him in years,
[00:23:19.181]months, and days. It has been more than twenty years but
[00:23:22.415]fewer than thirty. I would recognize him anywhere.
[00:23:26.882]He wears his hair in the same style he always has, real glossy-catalog
[00:23:30.998]preppy. He has a wide face. He's an executive at a major
[00:23:35.199]company. He has a fancy title. He has the same smug facial expression,
[00:23:41.468]that sort of "the world is mine" cockiness innate to some people,
[00:23:44.701]people like him. Ever since I found him, I Google him every few days
[00:23:48.852]or so like I'm trying to make sure he doesn't go missing. I need to
[00:23:52.827]know where he is. I need to understand, at all times, the
[00:23:56.526]distance between him and me, just in case. I don't know why
[00:24:00.771]I'm telling you this. Or I do. I Googled him when I wrote
[00:24:04.731]this book. I don't know why. Or I do. I sat for hours, staring
[00:24:09.471]at his picture on his webpage on his company's website.
[00:24:13.069]It nauseated me. I could smell him. This is what the future brings.
[00:24:18.340]I think about tracking him down the next time I'm in his city.
[00:24:21.859]I am there sometimes. If I told my friends there what I was doing,
[00:24:25.872]they would try and stop me, so I would wait and keep my plans
[00:24:28.043]to myself, commit a sin of omission. I am very good at waiting.
[00:24:32.557]I could make the time to find him. He wouldn't recognize me.
[00:24:36.765]I was skinny when he knew me and much shorter. I was very
[00:24:39.742]small and cute and smart but not that smart. I am not that girl
[00:24:43.913]anymore. I could find him and hide in plain sight. I saw to that.
[00:24:49.443]He wouldn't see me. He would look right through me. I know
[00:24:53.028]where he works and his e-mail address and his phone number
[00:24:55.794]and fax. I don't have these things written down, but I know.
[00:24:59.656]I have them bookmarked and maybe committed to memory.
[00:25:02.683]I know what the street outside his office building looks like
[00:25:05.647]because of Google Maps Street View. There are palm trees.
[00:25:09.141]He has a very nice view. This is the future.
[00:25:12.404]I don't have anything to say to him, or rather, anything I would say to him.
[00:25:16.064]Or I do. Maybe I have everything to say to him. I don't know.
[00:25:20.558]I wonder where he lives. If I went to his workplace and
[00:25:23.834]waited in the parking lot and followed him home,
[00:25:26.131]I could find out where he lives, how he lives. I could see where
[00:25:29.391]and how he sleeps at night. I wonder if he's married,
[00:25:32.836]if he has children, if he's happy. Is he a good husband and father?
[00:25:37.550]I wonder if he keeps in touch with the guys he used to run with.
[00:25:40.699]I wonder if they ever talk about the good old days, if they talk
[00:25:43.745]about me. I wonder if he could tell me their names because
[00:25:46.935]I didn't really know them, I just knew of them, and then I did
[00:25:50.270]know them but never their names.
[00:25:53.121]I wonder if he has become a good person.
[00:25:56.569]This one time, we were making out in the woods
[00:25:58.834]and my younger brother caught us and then blackmailed me for weeks.
[00:26:02.017]I had to do what he said or he would tell on me, which meant
[00:26:04.889]doing all his stupid chores and worrying, constantly, that he
[00:26:07.921]would tell my parents I was a bad Catholic girl.
[00:26:10.906]Sibling relationships are strangely corrupt.
[00:26:14.172]My younger brother also told me, then, that he didn't like this guy
[00:26:17.373]and I should stay away. I told him he was being silly, immature.
[00:26:21.522]I had a secret romance with a golden boy. That's all that mattered. I told him
[00:26:26.358]he was jealous someone liked me. I told my brother he was just a kid,
[00:26:30.476]he couldn't possibly understand. I should have listened to my brother.
[00:26:34.708]I was a kid too. I wonder how this man from my past takes his coffee
[00:26:39.161]because there is a Starbucks right across from his office. Google
[00:26:42.560]showed me that too. I wonder if he eats red meat and if he still
[00:26:46.054]likes to look at Playboys and if he has any hobbies and if he's
[00:26:49.074]still mean to fat kids. I was crazy for him. I probably would have
[00:26:53.313]done anything if he had only bothered to ask.
[00:26:56.711]Do people still like him as much as they used to? What kind of
[00:27:00.014]car does he drive? Is he close to his parents? Do they live in
[00:27:03.446]the same house? I have called his office and asked for him.
[00:27:07.763]I have done this more than once. Mostly I hang up immediately.
[00:27:13.230]His secretary put me through once after I made up a story
[00:27:16.098]about why I needed to speak to him. It was a good story.
[00:27:19.895]When I heard his voice I dropped the phone. His voice hasn't changed.
[00:27:25.131]When I picked up the phone again, he kept saying "Hello? Hello? Hello ..."
[00:27:30.465]This went on for a long time. He wouldn't stop saying hello.
[00:27:33.901]It was like he knew it was me, like he had been waiting too,
[00:27:37.033]and then after a long time he stopped saying hello and we
[00:27:40.367]sat there in silence and I kept waiting for him to hang up
[00:27:43.570]but he didn't and neither did I so we just listened to each other,
[00:27:47.137]breathing.
[00:27:49.451]Thank you. [ applause ]
[00:28:02.606]So, instead of reading for an hour, which would be traumatizing for all of us,
[00:28:08.280]I would love to take questions. I can answer questions about anything,
[00:28:12.255]including my husband, Channing. [ laughter ]
[00:28:15.535]...who is doing really well. So just raise your hand and shout.
[00:28:21.256]—I just really admire your bravery and courage for writing this book.
[00:28:29.296]So, since writing hunger, has your self-worth changed?
[00:28:33.838]And how has writing this book empowered you?
[00:28:37.083]—Oh, that's a good question. You know, I think writing the book
[00:28:40.674]ended up — I don't write for catharsis,
[00:28:43.137]though oftentimes catharsis comes from writing nonetheless.
[00:28:46.198]In writing this book, I actually ended up taking a hard look at myself
[00:28:53.524]and a lot of the behaviors I've developed since I was 12 years old,
[00:28:56.995]and it forced me to be honest with myself in a way I hadn't been honest
[00:29:00.422]for many, many years. And it actually ended up leading to me
[00:29:03.681]making some decisions. Like, I ended up getting weight-loss surgery in January
[00:29:07.815]because I just realized, Why am I holding on to this weight? There's no point.
[00:29:11.720]It's not serving me, it's not serving anyone in my life.
[00:29:16.069]So, that does not tie to my self-worth, but it did make me just more confident
[00:29:23.924]about making better decisions for myself, whatever those decisions look like.
[00:29:28.996]In terms of empowerment, I think it has been useful
[00:29:34.553]to see how the book has resonated with other people, oftentimes who
[00:29:38.957]don't have the same body struggles but who struggle with their body
[00:29:42.227]nonetheless. You know, living in a human body is really difficult,
[00:29:45.392]no matter what that body looks like.
[00:29:48.461]A lot of people have been able to relate to HUNGER, and that has
[00:29:51.765]opened up my understanding of what it means to be in a body
[00:29:55.345]and it has increased my empathy for others because, like many fat people,
[00:29:59.606]I do have a chip on my shoulder when skinny people come crying to me
[00:30:02.944]about whatever they're dealing with. I'm just like, oh.
[00:30:05.746][ laughter ] Bless your heart.
[00:30:08.756][ humorless chuckle ]
[00:30:10.546]And I'm getting better about that because I'm recognizing that
[00:30:14.766]what you see on the outside may not be the whole story
[00:30:18.752]of someone's body. And so I'm learning to treat people
[00:30:22.102]the way I would like to be treated. So that has been really helpful.
[00:30:31.980]—Can you talk about what your tattoos mean?
[00:30:34.730]—They don't mean anything. Yeah. [ laughter ]
[00:30:37.948]I started getting tattoos when I was 19 years old
[00:30:40.918]right here in Lincoln.
[00:30:44.321]At the time, I was like "The best thing I can do for myself is get tattoos
[00:30:48.765]on my forearms. That will do really well for my career and I think that's smart.
[00:30:55.493][ laughs ] These are my first two tattoos. One is Celtic knot work because I was like
[00:31:01.374]"Oh, it's pretty! It's a woman with wings!"
[00:31:03.757]And then I was like, "Yeah. Right under that,
[00:31:05.904]let's put some tribal. And throw a little red in there!
[00:31:11.721]Oh, wait. [ laughter ]
[00:31:14.903]This is my third one, so those three I got here in Lincoln and
[00:31:18.433]there was no rhyme or reason to it.
[00:31:22.327]I was just like, "This is pretty."
[00:31:24.772]"Let me put it on."
[00:31:26.624]And then my mom was like "What tribe are you from?"
[00:31:29.114][ laughter ]
[00:31:30.434]And I was like "It's just an aesthetic." [ laughter ]
[00:31:35.963]And now I'm 43 and I'm like "Hmm."
[00:31:38.763]But I actually don't regret my tattoos.
[00:31:40.813]If I could do it differently, I would perhaps put them in different places
[00:31:45.218]but I mean, they would look weird on my boobs, so it's fine.
[00:31:49.073][ laughter ]
[00:31:50.703]They were just things that made me feel better about myself at the time
[00:31:54.122]and I love them.
[00:32:00.543]You can also just stand up. —They need the mic -
[00:32:03.572]Oh, because of the live feed. Right.
[00:32:06.198]—I was wondering how being from Omaha and being from Nebraska and the Midwest
[00:32:10.411]has shaped your feminism, because you're kind of the awesome voice of
[00:32:15.345]feminism now, which is fantastic. —Ooh!
[00:32:18.706]—But I don't think we generally think that the voice of feminism for our
[00:32:22.503]generation is going to be from Nebraska.
[00:32:25.240]—Yeah! We contain multitudes.
[00:32:27.501][ laughter ]
[00:32:28.566]People are always surprised when I say that I'm from Nebraska and
[00:32:32.037]that's because they're racist.
[00:32:34.485][ laughter and applause ]
[00:32:41.771]Black Nebraskans are here. And when I was growing up,
[00:32:46.020]there was a tiny community of about 6 or 7 Haitian families
[00:32:49.961]between Omaha and Lincoln and we got together every weekend.
[00:32:54.931]Being from Nebraska always just... you know, Midwest sensibilities,
[00:33:01.649]Midwest nice, common sense, hard work, these were values
[00:33:06.303]that were instilled in me from childhood 'till now
[00:33:10.397]and I think those are values that also inform my feminism.
[00:33:14.821]One of the things I've always known about Nebraska women is that
[00:33:18.319]they are hard workers and they don't tolerate nonsense.
[00:33:22.930]Women here are pretty matter-of-fact, very strong, very strong-minded,
[00:33:27.432]and you may not think that, but they are.
[00:33:31.099]These are the women that I saw around me
[00:33:34.416]and they were the women I wanted to become, in many ways.
[00:33:39.969]And now, as a feminist, I think it's important for people to realize
[00:33:45.503]that feminism is not just something that only exists on the coasts,
[00:33:50.484]even if people don't share the same ideology as you,
[00:33:53.384]feminism is alive and well in the Midwest,
[00:33:56.155]and it's important to recognize that.
[00:33:58.608]I think it's just the sensibilities of being a midwesterner
[00:34:01.414]that shape my feminism.
[00:34:06.050]Ok! Go ahead. Ann Koopman, I won't forget you. I see you there.
[00:34:11.793]—Hi. Thank you so much for coming again. I'm very nervous.
[00:34:15.066]—You're doing great!
[00:34:16.670]—Ok, thank you. This question isn't as profound, but on Twitter
[00:34:19.963]you talk about your nemeses, and I want to know:
[00:34:23.193]do you have a count of how many? And also, do— [ laughter ]
[00:34:28.136]why ya'll laughing? [ laughter ]
[00:34:30.434]Are there any times where, like, they'll do something good
[00:34:34.156]and you're like, "Okay, I hate them less," or that kind of stuff.
[00:34:37.499]Like, does it all fluctuate?
[00:34:39.395]—Yes! I have 7 nemeses right now [ laughter ]
[00:34:43.698]and when one of my nemeses does something good I hate them more.
[00:34:47.426][ laughter ]
[00:34:48.641]Oh for sure. It's all very petty, and I'm not interested in their redemption
[00:34:54.659]or in seeing them in a positive light.
[00:34:57.918]It's truly grounded in the pettiest, pettiest reasons.
[00:35:01.685]In fact, I'll tell you the reasons why they're my nemeses.
[00:35:04.533][ laughter and applause ]
[00:35:07.394]Oh, I definitely came prepared.
[00:35:11.957]I keep them in a note on my phone.
[00:35:16.500]So, my first nemesis, whose name I'm happy to share, is James.
[00:35:20.960]We played Scrabble once and he lost and he practically flipped the table
[00:35:24.903]and couldn't believe that I beat him in the Scrabble tournament,
[00:35:28.312]so fuck you. [ laughter ]
[00:35:32.468]My second nemesis is a famous writer.
[00:35:35.150]...who I like but I hate.
[00:35:39.191]My third nemesis is someone that my partner has a crush on.
[00:35:43.424]As is my fourth. [ laughter ]
[00:35:47.227]My fifth nemesis is a woman who has written negatively about me.
[00:35:51.960]My sixth nemesis is a reviewer who said something petty about me.
[00:35:56.190]And my seventh nemesis is CrossFit.
[00:35:59.527][ laughter and applause ]
[00:36:05.848]—Hi Roxane! —Hi Ann!
[00:36:07.409]—It's such a joy to see you. —It's great to see you too!
[00:36:10.230]—I remember sitting, talking to you about what you wanted to do with your life
[00:36:14.703]and you said to me, "I want to be a writer."
[00:36:17.100]And lo and behold a student brought me your book and said
[00:36:19.824]"Look at this book!" and I said "Oh my gosh! She's a great writer!"
[00:36:23.434]And so I want to know, for the people here who have this passion,
[00:36:27.921]when you had your ups and downs, what advice do you have for them?
[00:36:31.698]Because, you've done it so well.
[00:36:34.921]—Yeah, definitely.
[00:36:36.413]I used to work with Ann in the College of Engineering many years ago.
[00:36:39.857]She was my boss's boss!
[00:36:42.812]The most important thing a writer can do is read, and read diversely.
[00:36:47.361]and thats not just about the demographics of the writers you are reading,
[00:36:50.860]but aesthetic diversity. Read across genres.
[00:36:53.469]Read things that challenge your worldview.
[00:36:55.629]It's going to make you a better writer.
[00:36:57.849]It's like cross-training for your mind.
[00:37:00.075]I also think you have to be relentless, and you have believe in yourself.
[00:37:03.543]One of the things that's interesting is
[00:37:05.404]now that I keep encountering people I used to know is that they were like
[00:37:08.825]"You always said you were going to be a writer." And I was like "Yes."
[00:37:12.172]I mean, even when I had a day job, I was a writer at night.
[00:37:15.978]I always took myself seriously as a writer, which is not to say
[00:37:20.318]I believed that I was good, but I believed that I could be a writer.
[00:37:24.735]Not enough writers take themselves seriously, and we hear so many people
[00:37:28.272]saying things like "Oh, you can't make it as a writer, and you can't do this,
[00:37:32.175]and you can't do that." Ignore them.
[00:37:34.843]It's difficult, but it's not impossible, and most writers have day jobs.
[00:37:38.291]What people can't make it as is someone who just lives off
[00:37:41.218]their writing only, luxuriating in a life of words.
[00:37:45.337]I mean, good luck, but
[00:37:47.312]your rent has to be paid. And there's no shame in a day job.
[00:37:50.186]I still have one, ish. So believe in yourself. And treat yourself seriously.
[00:37:56.893]I would always keep appointments with myself for writing, and I still do.
[00:38:00.915]When I would get home from work at 5 or 6 o'clock,
[00:38:03.999]I would take a little bit of a break and then I would get right back to it
[00:38:07.834]around 8 or 9, and write for 3 or 4 or 5 hours.
[00:38:12.436]I did that consistently, because writers actually have to write.
[00:38:16.622]You can't just hope, and then think it's going to come.
[00:38:20.629]You have to put in the work. And it's thankless, for a very long time.
[00:38:24.792]And it might always be thankless.
[00:38:27.024]But if you enjoy it, it doesn't feel that way.
[00:38:30.452]So, just be relentless.
[00:38:35.585]Oh. I see you though.
[00:38:39.101]I wondered if you play Scrabble on the app or online
[00:38:43.330]or if you hate it, because people seem to have one opinion or another.
[00:38:46.770]I do. I'm currently playing 38 games. [ laughter ]
[00:38:51.051]I play both official Scrabble and Words with Friends.
[00:38:55.687]Yes. All day every day.
[00:39:02.295]Right here! Yeah, there are more people. We'll get to you, don't worry.
[00:39:09.260]—Hi Roxane. —Hi.
[00:39:11.495]—I was just wondering, you said when you were twelve and you had that
[00:39:15.937]traumatic experience, what that took for you to come out about that,
[00:39:21.619]and then to even decide to speak publicly and write books about that
[00:39:27.910]and whether it took you a really long time
[00:39:30.752]or if there was a significant event in your life that swayed you
[00:39:36.000]to decide to do that.
[00:39:38.185]—In high school, I definitely wrote a lot of tragic little stories about it
[00:39:42.528]but I called it fiction. In fact my sophomore English teacher,
[00:39:47.494]Mr. McGuin, who I adore, noticed something was wrong
[00:39:52.323]and actually took me to the counseling– I went to boarding school
[00:39:55.492]in New Hampshire, and he took me to the counseling center and told me
[00:40:00.875]"You need help. I can tell you need help based on these stories.
[00:40:04.356]So keep up the writing, which is very good, but you need help."
[00:40:07.412]And I'm super grateful to him because he wasn't a predator,
[00:40:11.026]and he didn't act creepy, and he didn't try to solve the problem himself.
[00:40:14.498]He recognized "This is a problem beyond my pedagogical abilities,"
[00:40:19.569]and it was one of the greatest gifts.
[00:40:22.595]I then recognized that it was safe to write about this thing in fiction.
[00:40:26.861]It was in my late twenties, early thirties
[00:40:29.567]that I finally started writing about it in nonfiction.
[00:40:33.836]I just think I was finally ready to remove the distance provided by fiction
[00:40:39.856]where, in fiction, it was someone else's story
[00:40:42.267]I was ready to claim it as my own story and actually face it
[00:40:45.363]and try and deal with it. I also sought therapy again,
[00:40:50.256]because when I went to therapy at 13, it was useless.
[00:40:54.952]I didn't really know what I was doing in there;
[00:40:57.497]I was too scared; I didn't think I could really talk about it. So I did
[00:41:00.869]get help, but it wasn't as useful as when I was ready to be more fully disclosing.
[00:41:06.530]And with that, I just realized, "I don't have to keep this a secret."
[00:41:12.205]I started to tell people that I was close to, when it came up, not often,
[00:41:16.727]and I wrote an essay called "The careless language of sexual violence,"
[00:41:21.961]and that was the first time I really sort of was open and public about it.
[00:41:27.731]And my parents found out from an article in Time Magazine,
[00:41:31.597]which I don't recommend. [ laughter ]
[00:41:34.015]I was really passive-aggressive about it because I was so scared to tell them,
[00:41:37.987]because they have a very specific idea about what my childhood was like
[00:41:41.585]and this would contradict that, and I never knew how to tell them.
[00:41:45.676]So, I just told myself "Hey, no one's going to read BAD FEMINIST,
[00:41:48.781]so it's going to be fine" and then this article came out
[00:41:51.519]and turns out people did read BAD FEMINIST.
[00:41:54.022]So my dad called me one afternoon and he said "You know, I read
[00:41:57.315]this interview with you in Time Magazine," and from there
[00:42:02.445]we started talking about it. So it really was gradual.
[00:42:06.602]There wasn't a moment. It was just a series of things
[00:42:09.487]as I got older and older. It takes a long time.
[00:42:16.477]—Hi. —Hi.
[00:42:17.794]—Thank you for coming. First of all, I want to say I really appreciate you.
[00:42:21.721]—Thank you!
[00:42:22.721]—It's not frequently that I find authors that I share multiple identities with.
[00:42:27.945]So, that means a lot to me that you write and you're from Nebraska.
[00:42:31.506]—I am! —So that means a lot to me.
[00:42:35.370]But I want to ask you - for me, being a black female, I frequently feel quieted
[00:42:41.515]when I speak about things that are important to me.
[00:42:44.817]For example, a couple days ago in class, this white kid just
[00:42:48.046]walked out while I was being vulnerable. I don't think he
[00:42:50.968]realized what he was doing. But I want to ask you,
[00:42:53.432]how do you fight feelings of apathy when you're having to deal with this
[00:42:59.261]and also, secondly, does speaking about your grief and your trauma
[00:43:02.965]repeatedly like this desensitize you in any way to what you've experienced
[00:43:08.041]about yourself, and uncovered about yourself?
[00:43:10.299]—Yeah. How do I fight apathy? It's hard.
[00:43:13.231]There are definitely days where I'm like, "I have no fucks to give.
[00:43:16.478]I just cannot do this today."
[00:43:18.314]And I'm just trying to allow myself that downtime.
[00:43:21.380]Because you can't be on all the time
[00:43:23.647]and worried about every single thing all the time because it's not sustainable.
[00:43:27.922]It's a privilege to be able to step back, to indulge in apathy,
[00:43:31.731]but I recognize that. You know? Privileges are meant to be used,
[00:43:36.759]responsibly. And so I do try to use it responsibly.
[00:43:40.234]And then I just remind myself, like, "Come on, girl. Stand up.
[00:43:44.506]Just because you're feeling apathetic, like, think about people who are
[00:43:48.302]truly vulnerable and who truly need your energy."
[00:43:51.206]And that sort of reminds me to get over myself
[00:43:54.649]and reengage the best that I can.
[00:43:57.637]In terms of desensitization, talking about it—
[00:44:01.089]it's not talking about it that desensitizes me, it's time.
[00:44:05.478]I'm 43, and fortunately I have had the benefit of good mental health care.
[00:44:11.876]And so I don't know that I'm desensitized. There are definitely bad days.
[00:44:15.301]No matter how long, I think it's always going to be this way.
[00:44:18.668]There are some things that are just so traumatizing, that I feel like,
[00:44:22.276]the truth is I'm as over it as I'm ever going to get.
[00:44:25.554]It means I'm not fully over it, but I'm functional.
[00:44:28.891]And so that's fine. And I just try to remember that.
[00:44:33.866]But it's mostly time, rather than talking about it,
[00:44:37.363]that has desensitized me as much as I could be.
[00:44:52.770]—Hi! —Hi.
[00:44:55.707]—I also would like to say how much I appreciate your work,
[00:44:59.683]again because I identify with many of the identities that you identify with.
[00:45:05.826]My question has to do with— your book, BAD FEMINIST,
[00:45:09.618]was actually the first text that I ever was assigned to read in college
[00:45:13.260]back in 2015, and I'm curious:
[00:45:16.338]how do you feel about your, basically your words and your life
[00:45:22.736]being used to educate and teach a generation, as well as, did you ever
[00:45:29.412]see it being used as a tool, in the way that it has been spread around now?
[00:45:37.150]—Yeah. That's a good question. It feels great! [ laughter ]
[00:45:41.064]It's really, actually, quite surreal.
[00:45:44.195]When I published BAD FEMINIST, all of the essays are already published
[00:45:48.657]and are all available online. I didn't think the book was going to do well
[00:45:52.422]because you can just go print it out.
[00:45:55.722]Just go to Amazon, look up the table of contents,
[00:45:58.493]Google yourself some essays, staple them together
[00:46:00.906]and you're good to go. [ laughter ]
[00:46:03.108]I recommend buying the book,
[00:46:05.051]but if you're broke, that's another way to go about it.
[00:46:09.020]I never thought it was going to have much of a life,
[00:46:11.739]but the book just took off. And what's weird is that it sells more now
[00:46:15.094]than it did the year it came out. It's truly bizarre.
[00:46:19.098]But I'm grateful for it.
[00:46:22.137]And it's humbling to recognize that your work is being used in classrooms.
[00:46:27.538]The two books of mine that are taught the most are BAD FEMINIST and HUNGER.
[00:46:31.525]and it's interesting, because I didn't write those books with the aim of them
[00:46:37.606]becoming texts, and yet they are.
[00:46:41.663]And so I just hope that students who are reading them,
[00:46:45.604]I hope they are enjoying it because, you know, any time you're assigned a book
[00:46:49.326]it's like, "Ugh, this fucker. I hope it's not bad." [ laughter ]
[00:46:55.255]So I just hope students are getting something from it and are enjoying
[00:46:58.795]the writing and are enjoying the accessibility, which is deliberate.
[00:47:02.274]It's a feature, not a bug, so. Yeah, it's great!
[00:47:08.672]There are a bunch of questions in the back, too.
[00:47:13.252]—Um, so, I actually saw you in the bathroom at Andrews Hall
[00:47:16.454]and I was so starstruck I couldn't ask you at the time.
[00:47:19.879]But um— [ laughter ]
[00:47:25.329]So I'd like to ask now, you mentioned how the most important thing
[00:47:29.104]for a writer is to always be reading. Do you have any personal
[00:47:32.069]recommendations of any genre right now to young writers and
[00:47:37.426]young readers in general?
[00:47:39.998]—Um... [ clicking tongue ] well, one book I always recommend is
[00:47:46.142]THE AGE OF INNOCENCE by Edith Wharton, which is just fantastic.
[00:47:53.288]I'm trying to think of what I've been reading so far this year.
[00:47:56.429]It has been a good reading year, I must say.
[00:47:59.766]It's not out yet, but it's a book called THICK, by Tressie McMillan Cottom,
[00:48:04.451]and it's going to come out in January. And it's an essay collection and it's both
[00:48:09.639]intellectually rigorous and personal and just beautifully organized.
[00:48:15.116]Beautifully written. And I encourage any non-fiction writer who wants to see
[00:48:20.296]a pinnacle of what the form is, I strongly encourage them to check out that book.
[00:48:29.387]Hmm. I'm really bad at coming up with titles off the top of my head.
[00:48:33.087]It's not my strong suit. But... oh! Well, this is a YA novel, but
[00:48:41.522]I enjoyed it. It's called CHILDREN OF BLOOD AND BONE
[00:48:44.826][ cheers ] Oh! Wow! We've got some fans.
[00:48:47.786]It's really a fantastic book, and
[00:48:51.457]it's a little overwrought, but it's overwrought because I'm old.
[00:48:56.430]But for a young writer, it's not. And what's really interesting
[00:49:01.858]is the world building, the character development,
[00:49:06.225]the plot, the pacing. It's just a master class in how to write
[00:49:10.302]a really readable and fantastic novel.
[00:49:13.958]And I'm writing a YA novel right now that is not genre,
[00:49:18.244]but I'm still taking a lot from it in terms of thinking a lot about pacing.
[00:49:23.454]So, I recommend that, too.
[00:49:35.004]—One second. Hi! —Hi!
[00:49:39.237]—Thank you so much for coming. Before I ask my question, I want to
[00:49:45.041]say something to the African American girl who just spoke,
[00:49:50.039]like, four or five people ago, it is totally not cool that that guy walked out
[00:49:55.060]while you were talking in class, I don't know who you are, and
[00:49:59.227]I don't know what class this is in, but that was totally a bad move on his part.
[00:50:06.562]But my question for you is, you seem like such a confident and a humble person.
[00:50:12.068]What are some experiences you've had, that have helped shape you
[00:50:17.050]in both those ways.
[00:50:19.405]—Yeah. In terms of humility, Haitian parents will do that to you every time.
[00:50:25.818][ laughter ] Just being honest.
[00:50:27.926]They don't give a fuck. They're like, You're just their kid, relax.
[00:50:32.124]Don't get too fancy.
[00:50:35.363]And also, that's why I'm confident, because they always treated
[00:50:38.460]my brothers and I like little people.
[00:50:40.697]And so, at dinner every night, they believed in sitting around the table,
[00:50:45.254]and this was before electronics, and so we would sit and talk
[00:50:48.588]and they would listen to our silly little opinions about whatever.
[00:50:51.824]And they treated us like we had real opinions. It was wild!
[00:50:54.897]When I look back at the dumb stuff we said, I'm just like,
[00:50:57.693]"Why on earth did you sit through that for so many years?
[00:51:03.120]Three of us?! What were you thinking?"
[00:51:06.125]But they also are good at not letting us sort of get too big for our britches.
[00:51:10.063]I remember when I had a short story in BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES 2012,
[00:51:13.782]I called my mom and I was super excited about it and I was like,
[00:51:16.898]"Guess what? I'm going to be in BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES 2012!"
[00:51:20.204]and she said "Oh, Roxane! What is BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES?"
[00:51:24.474]And I was just like... [ sigh ]
[00:51:27.109]It's nothing, don't worry. [ laughter ]
[00:51:30.169]Don't worry about it, it's fine.
[00:51:32.814]And then, you know, with maturity, I think, comes the recognition that
[00:51:37.035]there's nothing wrong with confidence, and confidence is not arrogance.
[00:51:40.762]I think it's important, especially for women, to recognize when they do well
[00:51:45.530]and to not minimize accomplishment. Because it doesn't serve anyone.
[00:51:49.870]It doesn't make people like you more when you pretend that you aren't great.
[00:51:54.098]And so I try not to pretend that I'm not great.
[00:51:58.509][ applause ]
[00:52:06.612]—Right behind you. —Hi.
[00:52:12.422]Thank you for being here.
[00:52:16.335]Maybe that doesn't go through everybody's head this week,
[00:52:20.776]but it's certainly on my mind. Can you talk about #MeToo,
[00:52:27.442]Anita Hill, Brett Kavanaugh, whichever angle you want to take,
[00:52:32.304]I want to hear what you have to say about where we are.
[00:52:36.986]Because I feel probably as bad right now as I did in January of 2017.
[00:52:44.689]—Yeah. I have a piece coming out in the NEW YORK TIMES
[00:52:48.259]tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. about Brett Kavanaugh.
[00:52:53.675]And I had a piece come out today about #MeToo, so
[00:52:57.006]I'll just summarize them.
[00:52:58.932]Fuck Brett Kavanaugh.
[00:53:02.590][ cheering, applause ]
[00:53:10.409]You know, this is a really interesting time.
[00:53:15.738]For those of us who are older, we remember in 1991 when
[00:53:20.109]Anita Hill testified about the sexual harassment she faced
[00:53:23.219]at the hands of Clarence Thomas. And it was so bizarre, because
[00:53:26.361]Clarence Thomas is just a disgusting little man. Like,
[00:53:29.037]his harassment was banal and gross. Like he would put
[00:53:32.956]pubic hair on her shoulder. It's just gross. It's like,
[00:53:35.727]"Sir, WHAT? What are we doing here?"
[00:53:38.309]And it wasn't enough to convince people that he shouldn't be on
[00:53:41.670]the Supreme Court.
[00:53:43.939]And now we have a man who has been accused of sexual assault,
[00:53:47.493]and I do believe he did it— for several reasons— but
[00:53:51.419]the silliest reason is that he was in Delta Kappa Epsilon,
[00:53:55.561]or "Deke," and I went to Yale, and Deke was worse then
[00:54:01.530]and that was a few years after Brett went.
[00:54:04.667]It's a terrible fraternity full of rapists.
[00:54:06.967]And so I was like, "Yeah, he totally did it."
[00:54:10.696]And the thing is, he was 17
[00:54:13.158]and I recognize that people change.
[00:54:16.328]But if he had changed, he would have simply admitted
[00:54:19.177]"Yes, I did this thing, and I was young, and drunk, and I didn't know
[00:54:23.881]what I was doing and it was a mistake."
[00:54:26.556]And, quite frankly, I would respect him for doing that
[00:54:29.221]because we all do shitty things at 17.
[00:54:34.405]But that he has no remorse, that he says he doesn't remember, which—
[00:54:38.115]he may not actually remember doing this thing
[00:54:41.889]and that is righteous in his anger lets me know that he is not fit to make decision
[00:54:47.590]for the American people. And he is particularly unfit for making decisions
[00:54:51.607]about women because he doesn't treat women well.
[00:54:55.261][ applause ]
[00:55:02.768]It's really frustrating that things have gotten so ineffectually partisan
[00:55:08.309]that we can't even say "This is a bad choice."
[00:55:12.130]Because Neil Gorsuch wasn't my choice, but, whatever. You know?
[00:55:18.255]He's not objectionable in the ways that Brett Kavanaugh is objectionable.
[00:55:25.377]The Republicans are so deeply entrenched in having power
[00:55:28.883]in all 3 branches that they're not even able to recognize the ways in which
[00:55:33.023]they are compromising themselves. And it's just shocking because,
[00:55:36.152]I don't think this is what conservatism is supposed to be.
[00:55:42.531]And it's really depressing that this is how it has devolved
[00:55:46.765]especially since the 2016 election. But I would say,
[00:55:50.568]this entire decade has just been a travesty in terms of thinking about
[00:55:55.988]liberalism and conservatism and where the lines should be drawn.
[00:56:01.509]No matter what your political affiliation is,
[00:56:04.514]attempted rape should be on the list of things that disqualify people from
[00:56:08.214]the highest office in the land. And yet the president and two men
[00:56:12.018]on the Supreme Court are, like,
[00:56:15.923]"Yeah, this is a good way to treat women,"
[00:56:18.693]and the people in power around them are like "Sure, we'll look the other way."
[00:56:23.536]Because I do think a lot of the senators on the judiciary committee
[00:56:26.730]believe Christine Ford. I think they just don't care. It's horrifying.
[00:56:33.110]And I think that's why #MeToo is so complicated.
[00:56:37.442]#MeToo is wonderful, this idea that we can create a sense of solidarity
[00:56:40.969]among victims of sexual violence and harassment so people can know
[00:56:44.759]they're not alone, because for so long we've had to keep these things quiet.
[00:56:48.533]And we've had to pretend they didn't happen, or we've had to pretend that
[00:56:53.227]we're not as affected as we are. Since #MeToo, we've been able
[00:56:56.893]to share our stories and show people how pernicious and prevalent
[00:57:00.570]sexual violence is. But to what end?
[00:57:03.925]Is anything really changing? Not yet.
[00:57:07.551]So, we need to go beyond the hashtag. We need to go beyond the sense
[00:57:10.774]of solidarity and we need to figure out how do we create measurable change
[00:57:14.372]within the justice system and within
[00:57:16.338]not only American culture but really global culture
[00:57:19.189]in terms of how women are treated
[00:57:21.127]so that we don't need #MeToo anymore, and so that
[00:57:23.927]people find the idea of sexual harassment and sexual violence unthinkable.
[00:57:30.341]I would love for that conversation to begin, and I don't know if it will,
[00:57:34.836]because we're still saying #MeToo,
[00:57:38.651]because that's how many people have been affected.
[00:57:41.136]Like, we're not even done sharing our stories yet.
[00:57:44.351]That's how many stories are out there.
[00:57:46.349]It's a lot. I'm just incredibly frustrated by all of it.
[00:57:50.933]I'm fairly certain Kavanaugh is going to be confirmed, and
[00:57:54.568]that's incredibly distressing in terms of thinking about Roe vs. Wade,
[00:57:59.166]which should not be overturned, and yet is incredibly precarious.
[00:58:04.819]And it's not precarious for women who can afford to fly somewhere else
[00:58:08.437]and get an abortion. It's precarious for the women who can't.
[00:58:11.641]It's precarious for the women who right now have trouble getting abortions
[00:58:15.227]in states like Texas where sometimes you have to drive 200 or 300 miles
[00:58:18.917]to see an abortion provider. It's just really bad for the most vulnerable
[00:58:23.769]women among us. And I think we need to be thinking about that, and
[00:58:27.526]thinking about how we can provide resources for these women when
[00:58:34.992]men decide that they are going to continue legislating women's bodies.
[00:58:38.520][ applause ]
[00:58:48.245]—Hello. Okay. Thank you for coming. I kind of have two short questions,
[00:58:53.710]and I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to word them
[00:58:56.863]in the shortest and most concise way. But the first question is,
[00:59:00.264]what is your opinion on like, "cancelling culture?" On social media
[00:59:05.678]we like to dig up really old tweets of celebrities and we like to cancel
[00:59:10.134]them, so do we give them the opportunity to grow,
[00:59:14.146]depending on how old they were and things like that?
[00:59:18.142]And my second question was, how do you feel about how
[00:59:21.752]specifically forgiveness sometimes feels forced upon women,
[00:59:25.849]especially black women, and forgiveness is sometimes equated with
[00:59:29.432]"Don't hold them accountable?"
[00:59:31.893]And so, I kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that.
[00:59:36.273]Is "forgive and forget" always valid?
[00:59:40.235]—Um, I'll answer the second question first. I don't believe in forgiveness.
[00:59:44.311][ laughter ]
[00:59:45.941]I think forgiveness is a really personal choice.
[00:59:49.243]I actually, after the Charleston, SC shooting, where Dylann Roof
[00:59:53.187]went in and killed those people after worshipping with them,
[00:59:56.935]which is so repulsive - and the same night people were like
[01:00:03.013]"Forgiveness." Forgive WHAT? No thank you.
[01:00:07.711]And so I wrote an op-ed for the NEW YORK TIMES about it, afterwards
[01:00:10.938]because I was appalled by how quickly people were demanding
[01:00:14.197]that black people forgive this young man,
[01:00:16.301]who remains to this day unrepentant about what he did.
[01:00:20.348]I think forgiveness can be freeing for people.
[01:00:23.029]And I do think that there are things to forgive.
[01:00:25.683]But I also think there are things that are unforgivable.
[01:00:28.370]And I think the massacre of— what was it, 9 people?—
[01:00:32.541]is unforgivable. I think that, um,
[01:00:38.496]in general, sexual violence is unforgivable because
[01:00:42.538]the repercussions are so long-lasting and they run so deep.
[01:00:48.302]But that's just me.
[01:00:50.598]So if you want to forgive, feel free. I hear it's freeing, but
[01:00:54.566]I feel perfectly free by saying "I don't forgive you."
[01:00:57.412]That doesn't weigh on my psyche. That doesn't keep people
[01:01:00.178]having real estate in my head; it just means "You go do you,
[01:01:03.408]and know that you're a terrible person."
[01:01:06.599]Because women are expected to forgive. We're expected to be pliant,
[01:01:10.348]we're expected to be all-loving, as if nothing is bad,
[01:01:13.513]because we deserve whatever comes our way,
[01:01:15.588]and that we should always forgive people who mistreat us.
[01:01:18.404]And I think it's important for women to start to recognize
[01:01:21.197]we don't have to forgive. It's not our job.
[01:01:24.876]Don't do things that require forgiveness. How about that?
[01:01:28.505][ applause ]
[01:01:34.964]In terms of cancellation culture, I think it's short-sighted.
[01:01:41.752]I think that some people deserve to be cancelled,
[01:01:44.941]but many of the people we try to cancel don't deserve to be cancelled;
[01:01:48.363]I think that the bar for being cancelled has to be higher than
[01:01:51.380]some stupid tweet from 10 years ago.
[01:01:56.364]Because what we're really saying is that you have to be perfect at all times
[01:02:00.414]in order to be respected.
[01:02:05.843]You don't have to be perfect.
[01:02:08.169]And that shouldn't be the bar.
[01:02:10.253]I think you have to be able to grow and to change.
[01:02:13.537]It's not if someone said something stupid 10 years ago,
[01:02:16.231]it's are they still saying something stupid 10 years later?
[01:02:20.288]And if the answer is yes, then, yes, let's talk about cancellation.
[01:02:24.640]But if the answer was, "No, they were 17 at the time, or 25 at the time,"
[01:02:29.911]then perhaps we should look at the context
[01:02:33.018]and look at if there's an apology and look at what they're doing today.
[01:02:37.767]So, recently, James Gunn was cancelled for some terrible tweets of his
[01:02:42.409]and I'm not going to cry for him, because he's going to be just fine
[01:02:46.202]and he's still going to be a millionaire.
[01:02:48.177]But I also think that activist energy would be better spent worrying
[01:02:54.498]about something more serious than James Gunn's tweets from 10 years ago.
[01:02:59.698]I don't know that that's the hill that we need to be dying on
[01:03:03.480]when there's so much terrible shit happening in Hollywood.
[01:03:08.514]And they're probably going to replace him with another white dude.
[01:03:13.136]So the problem isn't really getting fixed.
[01:03:16.410]So I just think it's short-sighted. I'd rather cancel things that matter.
[01:03:29.578]—Hi. Um, you write op-eds for the NEW YORK TIMES. How do you feel
[01:03:35.306]about some of the other authors of the NEW YORK TIMES op-eds who
[01:03:41.673][ laughter ]
[01:03:45.377]spin maybe some conspiracy or just flat-out deny climate change?
[01:03:55.291]Is it useful to have those voices in such a visible, public place?
[01:04:01.836]—Yeah. The NEW YORK TIMES is incredibly frustrating at all levels.
[01:04:07.331]I enjoy writing for them. I enjoy my personal editor.
[01:04:11.531]I don't understand the people that have permanent columnist berths.
[01:04:15.110]I would love one. I would love Tressie McMillan Cottom getting one.
[01:04:19.881]There are many women out there, I think, that deserve them.
[01:04:22.707]They just hired their first black woman, Michelle Alexander, who is wonderful.
[01:04:27.009]I'm actually quite thrilled to see what she comes up with.
[01:04:30.247]Her first column is wonderful.
[01:04:31.870]But then there's Ross Douthat, Bret fucking Stephens,
[01:04:34.632][ laughter ] and Bari Weiss.
[01:04:38.738]And it's just inexplicable that these people are being paid
[01:04:43.378]so well and having such a permanent, prestigious berth
[01:04:46.679]at the paper of record. It's offensive, not because they're conservative,
[01:04:54.101]because that's not the issue. It's that they're dumb and a-factual.
[01:05:02.137]I think it's really dangerous to have people in positions of power
[01:05:05.724]that can reach large audiences who don't believe in climate change.
[01:05:09.320]Because climate change is real; it's measurable; it's proven.
[01:05:13.004]Why, in this decade, would you hire someone—because
[01:05:16.131]Bret Stephens is a recent hire—if they had hired him 30 years ago, fine.
[01:05:20.700]But no! They hired him last year. And so what is going on?
[01:05:25.745]It's just inexplicable. But it is what it is.
[01:05:29.302]So what I try to do is to be as factual as possible and as sane as possible.
[01:05:36.311]Those three in particular
[01:05:38.279]are always worried about people who don't need to be worried about.
[01:05:42.816]And I just think that's an odd use of platform.
[01:05:45.731]So, you know, I can't control it. All I can do is control what I do
[01:05:48.969]with mine, and so I try to be as ethical and responsible and
[01:05:52.708]as fun—once in a while— as possible, as I can,
[01:05:56.844]but it's really frustrating to know that we're sharing oxygen.
[01:06:03.181][ laughter ] It's just very frustrating.
[01:06:07.861]—Okay, we're after 8. Keep going? —It's fine. Yup.
[01:06:18.179]—Hi. Thank you for coming. This is wonderful.
[01:06:22.870]I was wondering if you could talk about your use of humor.
[01:06:27.111]I mean, particularly in your writing, but just generally it seems to be
[01:06:31.192]like a really important feature of the person that you are.
[01:06:35.632]And it's something I'm really interested in.
[01:06:38.842]Just your general views on it, what do you think humor is,
[01:06:43.888]when do you think it's useful, when do you think it's not useful...
[01:06:48.013]—Yeah. I wouldn't presume to define humor. I think you know it
[01:06:51.178]when you see it. But I do think humor is useful as the spoonful of sugar
[01:06:57.308]to make the medicine go down when you're writing about difficult topics
[01:07:00.817]and speaking about difficult topics.
[01:07:03.583]It's a way of connecting with people with whom you might not ordinarily connect.
[01:07:08.121]So it's not something I ever try to force into my writing, because there are things—
[01:07:12.087]so like, the piece that I had out today and the piece I have out tomorrow
[01:07:15.660]there's no humor in them, because there's no humor in
[01:07:18.198]what's going on right now in terms of sanctioned state misogyny.
[01:07:22.443]But in general, I just want to be able to reach people
[01:07:27.840]and the best way to reach people that might disagree with me is to use humor.
[01:07:31.956]And that's how I try to use it. I try to balance it as effectively as possible.
[01:07:35.810]I never want to use too much humor because I want to make sure that
[01:07:39.244]I'm respecting the gravity of the topics I'm writing about,
[01:07:42.956]but I don't want to be so self-serious that I can't laugh and
[01:07:46.873]that my readers can't laugh because then it's not really engaging
[01:07:52.147]and that's not something I'm particularly interested in.
[01:07:58.032]Ah! There's a young black woman in the back, back, back
[01:08:00.851]with purple. Can you shout your question?
[01:08:02.995]—Yes! —All right! I can hear you, too.
[01:08:05.833]—I guess, um, as a fat black woman I want to say thank you.
[01:08:09.684]And I'm also curious, because you touched on it in HUNGER;
[01:08:14.986]navigating relationships with thin friends, and
[01:08:21.397]being the person always out of breath, or not fitting in rollercoasters;
[01:08:26.157]how do you navigate those relationships with people who are thin?
[01:08:29.241]Especially people who are athletic and thin and want to do athletic activities?
[01:08:33.631]—Yes. You know, that's something I'm learning, because back in the day
[01:08:38.042]I would just pretend I could do it, even though it was clear that I couldn't.
[01:08:42.972]And I would always opt out of certain things and just make it seem like
[01:08:47.751]"Oh, I don't want to." But now, I try to advocate for myself.
[01:08:52.835]Like when someone's like "Let's go climb that mountain"
[01:08:55.553]I'm like "Who's 'we'?" [ laughter ]
[01:08:58.776]"And what specifically... like... how do you think we're going to climb it? In a
[01:09:02.811]car, or...? A buggy? Do you think we're going to fucking walk up this mountain?
[01:09:09.805]I'm black." [ laughter ]
[01:09:15.398]So, I just point it out. And because they should already know—
[01:09:18.787]they should know not to suggest that stupidity to me, so
[01:09:21.570]I will just shame them to their faces. [ laughter ]
[01:09:25.836]And I also then, for people who don't deserve to be shamed,
[01:09:29.870]I'll just try to suggest activities that we can both do.
[01:09:34.125]We can do physical things. Like, "Let's go walk around this park... that's flat.
[01:09:40.196]And let's walk at a leisurely pace. And perhaps bring some bottled water.
[01:09:45.548]Because for me, this is a workout, while for you this is a stroll.
[01:09:49.120]So I'm going to kill two birds with one stone. You're welcome."
[01:09:53.296]I just don't like to hide it anymore because I don't want to put myself
[01:09:56.773]in the uncomfortable position of just feeling like I have to pretend that
[01:10:00.520]I can walk as fast, or I can go in that tiny little rollercoaster tub or whatever.
[01:10:05.695]My pride matters more than that and my dignity matters more than that.
[01:10:10.566]So I just try to advocate for myself and it's actually really hard, because
[01:10:14.401]you want to believe everything is flattened and that we're all equal.
[01:10:18.308]We are equal in terms of worth, but we have different physical abilities.
[01:10:22.670]And I'm also training them to recognize that we're not the same;
[01:10:26.998]that you're size 2, and I'm a size 32. So.
[01:10:31.390]Let's think this through when you lend me your sweater.
[01:10:35.476][ laughter ]
[01:10:38.065]Are you giving me that as an arm warmer?
[01:10:41.830]And if so, thank you. But if you honestly think I can put that on my back,
[01:10:47.930]then you're being privileged and stupid. I'm more polite about it than that,
[01:10:52.889]but I do try to make it a teaching moment because if it's my friends
[01:10:56.598]they deserve that teaching moment. If it's a stranger, I'm just like "Mm-mm."
[01:11:02.878]But that's a really good question.
[01:11:08.010]—So, in the book you talk a little bit about thinking through sharing
[01:11:11.870]your story publicly, about the assault, and I'm wondering;
[01:11:15.734]have you had a lot of fear around that? Have you dealt with...
[01:11:20.566]I mean, obviously there may be many people who know who you're talking about;
[01:11:24.472]you know, the man that you're still thinking about today, of course.
[01:11:30.050]How have you dealt with that, if you have experienced that?
[01:11:33.325]And how did you make that final decision to go ahead and be as honest as you are?
[01:11:38.048]—Um, I didn't have any fear, because so long has passed that...
[01:11:43.525]like, I mean, the guys who did this know who they are.
[01:11:48.700]And I actually only lived in the area— it was not Nebraska, people think
[01:11:52.400]it's Nebraska, but it wasn't; it was New Jersey.
[01:11:55.264]My dad works for Kiewit, and so we would go back and forth
[01:11:59.466]when he would go manage a project and then we would come back to Omaha.
[01:12:03.634]So they know who they are, and it's not my job to project them.
[01:12:09.826]But the Harper Collins lawyers, as they do with all memoirs,
[01:12:14.048]vetted the memoir. So any identifying things have been taken out.
[01:12:21.862]But there was one thing I had to fight, which was the palm tree mention.
[01:12:26.258]They were like "That'll identify where he is" and I was like, "I Googled it
[01:12:30.599]and there are 7 states with palm trees. So it's fine. Calm down."
[01:12:37.768]So I wasn't worried legally, because the book had been thoroughly vetted.
[01:12:41.814]I'm not afraid, either, because at this point if they want to talk about it,
[01:12:45.944]I'm like "Well... I have a LOT of Twitter followers."
[01:12:50.634][ laughter ] "And if you talk shit to me I will put you on blast."
[01:12:56.034]And it will feel really good. Because the statute of limitations has passed.
[01:13:01.068]So nothing can really happen to them. People often ask why I didn't name names;
[01:13:06.119]and I think about that a lot and I only knew one of their names.
[01:13:09.287]I didn't know the other four. And so I could only name one.
[01:13:15.497]I don't know what it would change.
[01:13:19.805]I don't think it would help me more than it would hurt me.
[01:13:23.138]We've already seen what it's like for a woman to come forward
[01:13:26.665]and you know, people are like "You're so brave." I'm not THAT brave.
[01:13:30.464]So that's how I've protected myself. There is absolutely fear,
[01:13:34.326]but as long as I keep it anonymous I just feel safer
[01:13:37.335]than if I were to name names. Conversely, I feel a lot of guilt
[01:13:41.046]because I have no doubt that they went on to assault other people.
[01:13:46.379]But it's not my responsibility to keep them from assaulting.
[01:13:49.290]It's their responsibility not to commit other acts of rape.
[01:13:52.235]And so, it's tough. [ applause ]
[01:14:02.191]—I see your hand. He's coming to you. All right, I'll take two more questions.
[01:14:11.712]—Okay. So, for a class this week we read your essay "What We Hunger For."
[01:14:15.644]And there's line in your essay that says "Just because you survive something
[01:14:19.353]doesn't mean you're strong." And like, that has been echoing in my head
[01:14:23.217]for the entire week since I read it. And I wanted to know,
[01:14:27.813]what does becoming strong look like to you, and what does strong
[01:14:30.929]in itself and strength look like?
[01:14:34.870]—Oh. You guys are with the good questions tonight. Hmm.
[01:14:42.065]You know, I don't know. I think being strong is just being able to
[01:14:46.596]hold on to and preserve a sense of self and self-worth
[01:14:51.373]in the face of circumstances that deny your sense of self and self-worth.
[01:14:56.106]I think survival oftentimes can be a marker of strength but sometimes not.
[01:15:01.659]It just depends. For me, it's just being able to hold on to a sense of who I am.
[01:15:06.498]That's what I feel like is the best example of strength.
[01:15:11.594]And also the ability to change. The ability to recognize
[01:15:15.735]the places where you're weak.
[01:15:19.030]We always talk about weakness like it's a bad thing,
[01:15:21.933]but I think weakness just reminds us that we're all human.
[01:15:25.266]And I'm not ashamed of the places or the areas in which I'm weak at all.
[01:15:31.022]I'm just aways trying to improve them or protect them as best as I can.
[01:15:35.710]And I think that requires more strength than pretending that you're invulnerable
[01:15:40.972]because that's not true, and it's also not a healthy way to go through life.
[01:15:48.896]—Will you pass that down? Thank you. —Hi. Just want to thank you again
[01:15:52.965]for being here. For me, one of the themes that emerges in a lot of your reading
[01:15:58.667]and kind of what you said tonight is that we all contain multitudes.
[01:16:02.895]And the way that things are communicated in this day and age,
[01:16:07.624]things become very reductionist and simple. So as a writer, how do you convey
[01:16:15.830]very complex ideas and themes to a wide audience?
[01:16:20.962]—To a white audience? —Wide.
[01:16:22.809]—Wide! Oh! [ laughs ] [ laughter ]
[01:16:25.274]I was like, Uh... I don't have a special white audience trick.
[01:16:29.665]Yeah, no, that's a good question.
[01:16:32.133]You know, my PhD is actually in rhetoric and technical communication.
[01:16:35.878]So I have quite a lot of training in writing for multiple audiences.
[01:16:40.592]A lot of time people are like "How do you do it?"
[01:16:43.004]"Uh, I went to school for a really long time."
[01:16:45.796][ laughter ] and so I use a rhetorical framework at all times.
[01:16:51.051]But I also recognize that people contain multitudes; that I contain multitudes;
[01:16:55.565]and that no one is any one thing. You know what I mean?
[01:17:04.062]And I also think about this in terms of fiction.
[01:17:06.635]Nobody is entirely evil or entirely good.
[01:17:09.119]Though the president is entirely evil.
[01:17:12.589][ laughter and applause ]
[01:17:16.440]Like, straight out of central casting. You couldn't— like, he's just straight
[01:17:20.530]out of, like, Austin Powers. Just, wow.
[01:17:26.333]But, you know, there's something going on right now in the media
[01:17:31.517]in terms of how we transmit ideas that suggests that you're either
[01:17:35.046]all good, or all bad; that you're conservative, or liberal;
[01:17:38.597]that there's no gray areas between these things.
[01:17:41.439]And that's not the case. And I think because I grew up as a black, Haitian,
[01:17:45.589]queer woman, in Nebraska, [ laughter ]
[01:17:51.510]I recognized early on that people contain multitudes, and that
[01:17:55.744]you can have a lot of contradictory things going on and still make sense.
[01:18:00.896]And so I just always try to remember that in my writing and I try to reach
[01:18:04.724]not the people who are inherently going to agree with me,
[01:18:07.840]but the people who think that they're going to inherently disagree with me.
[01:18:12.034]So what do they need to hear? What do they need to know
[01:18:14.803]to at least consider my point of view? And that's what I try to keep in mind
[01:18:18.999]when I'm writing toward a broad audience.
[01:18:21.235]It works to varying degrees. I get quite a lot of hate mail
[01:18:25.888]from mostly men, but some women, and
[01:18:32.993]there are people who think in that really uniform, black-and-white worldview
[01:18:38.403]where they're not interested in alternative points of view.
[01:18:41.573]And so I just recognize that that's not my audience.
[01:18:45.122]I'm not trying to reach those people. I'm trying to reach the reachable
[01:18:48.699]and I don't exhaust myself with trying to reach the unreachable.
[01:18:51.861]Like, if you're going to walk around wearing your #MakeAmericaGreat hat,
[01:18:55.477]congratulations. But I know that we have nothing to talk about.
[01:18:58.639]Which— and also, that hat's made in China. So, haha. [ laughter ]
[01:19:03.870]But, if you are thinking about things in more complex ways, where you're like
[01:19:10.464]"I'm a conservative but I believe women are people," then we can probably
[01:19:15.337]have a conversation. So yeah. [ laughter ]
[01:19:19.596]Thank you so much for coming out tonight. [ cheers & applause ]

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