The Death Penalty: Justice, Retribution and Dollars
J. Kirk Brown & Michael Radelet
Author
11/29/2012
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1237
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Description
The death penalty continues to generate intense debate, including in Nebraska — one of 33 states that authorize capital punishment. In this debate, Nebraska Solicitor General J. Kirk Brown and University of Colorado Boulder professor Michael Radelet will explore such questions as whether the death penalty is humane, fairly applied, reduces violent crime, or is cost effective. They’ll also examine impacts on the condemned person, the legal and judicial systems, victims’ loved ones, and the taxpaying society at large.
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- [00:00:18.000]>> I BELIEVE THERE IS A PLACE FOR A AT THE TIME PENALTY.
- [00:00:20.967]SOME CRIMES ARE SO HEINOUS, SO HORRIBLE.
- [00:00:23.367]THE RESPONSE WE HAVE AS A CIVILIZED NATION FOR AN UNCIVIL
- [00:00:26.633]ACTION IS NOT ONLY TO TRY TO DETER THAT PERSON FROM EVER
- [00:00:30.500]COMMITTING THAT CRIME AGAIN, BUT ALSO AS A WARNING TO OTHERS THAT
- [00:00:33.900]SOME CRIMES TRULY ARE BEYOND ANY OTHER CAPACITY FOR US TO FIX.
- [00:00:40.633]>> AT THIS POINT, AMERICA IS ONE OF THE FEW COUNTRIES THAT STILL
- [00:00:44.700]USES THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:00:46.066]>> WE SHARE THAT COMPANY WITH IRAQ, IRAN,
- [00:00:49.900]COUNTRIES FROM AFRICA AND CHINA.
- [00:00:53.133]THIS IS THE POLICY THAT HAS BEEN REJECTED AS A
- [00:00:59.567]GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE.
- [00:01:00.934]>> YOU LOOK INTO THE EYES OF VICTIMS' FAMILIES AND REALIZE
- [00:01:03.934]THE SENSE OF LOST AND SORROW THEY HAVE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO
- [00:01:07.467]ENSURE THAT A CONSTITUTIONAL METHOD OF EXECUTION
- [00:01:11.400]EXISTS IN NEBRASKA.
- [00:01:11.900]>> THERE ARE SOME CRIMES THAT ARE SO HEINOUS
- [00:01:16.367]THEY DESERVE DEATH.
- [00:01:16.700]TWO OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES OCCURRED WHERE I LIVED, WHERE
- [00:01:21.300]OUR CHILDREN HAVE GROWN UP.
- [00:01:23.133]MY GRANDCHILDREN ARE GROWING UP.
- [00:01:25.166]>> COST IS A REAL FACTOR.
- [00:01:26.600]DO WE REALLY WANT TO EXTEND THE DOLLARS WE EXTEND IN THIS KIND
- [00:01:33.033]OF A PROCESS AND THEN DO WE WANT TO USE MORE MONEY TO GO
- [00:01:40.333]AFTER THE BAD GUYS.
- [00:01:41.400]>> PEOPLE MOST LIKELY TO FACE A SENTENCE OF DEATH ARE THOSE WHO
- [00:01:45.767]ARE ABLE FINANCIALLY TO RETAIN THEIR OWN LEGAL COUNSEL.
- [00:01:50.600]SO THAT COST FALLS ON ALL OF THE CITIZENS OF
- [00:01:55.934]THE STATE OF NEBRASKA.
- [00:01:56.700]>> SINCE NEBRASKA IS ONE OF THE 33 STATES THAT STILL HAS THE
- [00:01:59.567]DEATH PENALTY, WE ARE USING GOVERNMENT RESOURCES
- [00:02:03.900]IN A FAILED EXPERIMENT.
- [00:02:04.300]WE HAVE 11 PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW HERE IN NEBRASKA, THAT'S MONEY
- [00:02:09.633]THAT COULD BE SPENT ON SERVICES, SOLVING COLD CASE FILES,
- [00:02:15.467]AND TO PREVENT FUTURE CRIMES.
- [00:02:16.633]WE DON'T NEED TO BE STUFFING MORE MONEY INTO THE DEATH
- [00:02:19.400]PENALTY SYSTEM WHICH IS PROVEN TO BE NO DETERRENT ON CRIME.
- [00:02:24.567]>> ONE OF THE TOUGHEST CHALLENGES I FACED AS A GOVERNOR
- [00:02:27.667]WAS CARRYING OUT THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:02:30.266]I DID IT MORE THAN ANY GOVERNOR HAD TO DO IN MY STATE.
- [00:02:33.567]IF I LOOK ON THE STAGE, I'M SURE I'M THE ONLY PERSON ON THIS
- [00:02:37.200]STAGE THAT EVER HAD TO ACTUALLY DO IT.
- [00:02:38.800]IT'S THE TOUGHEST DECISION I EVER MADE AS A HUMAN BEING.
- [00:02:43.467]I READ EVERY PAGE OF EVERY DOCUMENT OF EVERY CASE THAT EVER
- [00:02:46.200]CAME BEFORE ME.
- [00:02:46.934]IT WAS THE ONE DECISION THAT CAME TO MY DESK THAT ONCE I MADE
- [00:02:51.800]IT WAS IRREVOCABLE.
- [00:02:54.533]EVERY OTHER DECISION SOMEBODY COULD GO BACK AND OVERTURN AND
- [00:02:58.166]FIX IF IT WAS A MISTAKE.
- [00:02:59.800]THAT ONE WAS IRREVOCABLE.
- [00:03:01.700]>> THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO KNOW FROM THIS VERY COMMON THAT MISTAKES
- [00:03:04.834]ARE MADE BY A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
- [00:03:07.200]WE HAVE 1300 EXECUTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY IN THE MODERN ERA.
- [00:03:10.400]IN THAT SAME TIME, WE SET FREE 140 PEOPLE PROVEN TO BE INNOCENT
- [00:03:16.867]FROM DEATH ROW.
- [00:03:19.300]THAT MEANS FOR THE FAILED SYSTEM FOR EVERY TEN EXECUTIONS WE HAVE
- [00:03:24.266]ONE PERSON PROVEN INNOCENT.
- [00:03:25.600]I DON'T WANT TO TRUST MY LIFE TO A PERSON GETTING IT WRONG
- [00:03:30.934]10% OF THE TIME.
- [00:04:13.233]>>> GOOD EVENING, I'M PROFESSOR LLOYD AMBROSIAS IN
- [00:04:21.533]UNL'S HISTORY DEPARTMENT.
- [00:04:22.033]IT'S MY PLEASURE ON THE FORUM ON WORLD ISSUES PROGRAM COMMITTEE
- [00:04:25.800]TO WELCOME YOU TO THIS DEBATE THIS EVENING OR THIS
- [00:04:31.166]DIALOGUE THIS EVENING.
- [00:04:32.467]THIS IS ONE OF THE EVENTS DURING THE CURRENT YEAR FOCUSING ON THE
- [00:04:39.000]LARGER THEME OF RELIGION, RIGHTS, AND POLICIES.
- [00:04:44.500]WE'RE GRATEFUL TO OUR PARTNERS, THE COOPER FOUNDATION, FOR
- [00:04:48.967]ONGOING SUPPORT FOR THE LECTURE SERIES, N.E.T., NEBRASKA
- [00:04:54.033]EDUCATIONAL TELEVISION FOR THEIR PRODUCTION OF THE SERIES.
- [00:04:58.567]UNL'S KRNU RADIO, 90.3 FM AND LINCOLN CABLE CHANNEL 21.
- [00:05:05.567]NOW THIS LECTURE SERIES WAS CONCEIVED BY AND SUBSEQUENTLY
- [00:05:12.734]NAMED AFTER EN JACK THOMPSON.
- [00:05:16.934]HE WAS THE PERSON WHO CONCEIVED OF THE SERIES AND HELPED TO GET
- [00:05:25.533]US ORGANIZED BEFORE HIS DEATH A FEW YEARS AGO.
- [00:05:28.066]AFTER THE DIALOGUE THIS EVENING, YOU WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO
- [00:05:32.200]ASK QUESTIONS BY WRITING YOUR QUESTIONS ON CARDS PROVIDED
- [00:05:35.834]BY THE USHERS.
- [00:05:36.834]THE USHERS WILL THEN COLLECT THE CARDS AND THOSE WILL BE BROUGHT
- [00:05:43.200]TO THE FRONT SO THAT AS MANY OF THOSE QUESTIONS AS POSSIBLE MAY
- [00:05:47.500]BE ANSWERED BY OUR TWO SPEAKERS.
- [00:05:51.333]THIS EVENING IN PARTICULAR, WE'RE GRATEFUL TO
- [00:05:56.033]CHUCK AND LINDA WILSON.
- [00:05:58.300]THIS IS THE -- CHUCK AND LINDA WILSON DIALOGUE ON DOMESTIC
- [00:06:04.133]ISSUES, WHICH IS A PART OF THE THOMPSON FORUM SERIES.
- [00:06:06.900]SO WE'RE GRATEFUL TO THE WILSONS FOR THEIR SUPPORT FOR THIS
- [00:06:12.600]PARTICULAR EVENING'S EVENT.
- [00:06:14.100]IT IS NOW MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE TONIGHT'S MODERATOR
- [00:06:19.934]FOR THE DIALOGUE.
- [00:06:22.300]SUSAN POSER IS THE RICHARD AND KATHERINE SMOKER, PROFESSOR OF
- [00:06:27.000]LAW AND DEAN OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA LAW SCHOOL.
- [00:06:32.467]NOW, JOIN ME IN WELCOMING DEAN POSER.
- [00:06:47.734]>> GOOD EVENING.
- [00:06:48.734]WELCOME TO THE CHUCK AND LINDA WILSON DIALOGUE
- [00:06:52.533]ON DOMESTIC ISSUES.
- [00:06:52.867]TONIGHT, THE WILSON DIALOGUE WILL TAKE THE FORM OF A DEBATE
- [00:06:56.467]ON THE DEATH PENALTY, JUSTICE, RETRIBUTION, AND DOLLARS.
- [00:07:00.333]I WOULD LIKE TO ADD MY THANKS TO CHUCK AND LINDA WILSON FOR
- [00:07:04.133]CREATING AND SUPPORTING TONIGHT'S DEBATE AND FOR THEIR
- [00:07:07.233]VISION IN CREATING AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO CONSIDER
- [00:07:11.834]TOGETHER AND IN DEPTH THE MOST IMPORTANT DOMESTIC
- [00:07:16.467]ISSUES OF OUR TIME.
- [00:07:17.166]IN A FEW MOMENTS, I WILL INTRODUCE OUR SPEAKERS.
- [00:07:22.333]EACH SPEAKER WILL GET A MAXIMUM OF FIVE MINUTES
- [00:07:26.467]FOR OPENING STATEMENT.
- [00:07:26.867]WHEN I PUT QUESTIONS TO THEM WHICH THEY WILL DISCUSS.
- [00:07:29.600]ABOUT 40 MINUTES OF DISCUSSION, I WILL ANNOUNCE WE WILL BEGIN TO
- [00:07:33.467]COLLECT QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE.
- [00:07:35.767]AT THAT POINT, IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION YOU'D LIKE ME TO ASK
- [00:07:38.367]THE DEBATERS, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND, GET AN USHER'S ATTENTION.
- [00:07:42.667]YOU WILL BE PROVIDED WITH PAPER AND PENCIL.
- [00:07:45.900]WRITE YOUR QUESTION DOWN AND GIVE IT TO AN USHER.
- [00:07:49.333]I WILL PUT THE QUESTIONS TO THE DEBATERS AND AT THE END OF THE
- [00:07:52.900]DEBATE, THERE WILL BE CLOSING ARGUMENTS FROM EACH OF THEM.
- [00:07:54.934]WE'RE HERE TO DISCUSS THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:07:57.333]IT'S ACCURATE TO SAY THERE'S BOTH DIVISION AND AMBIVALENCE IN
- [00:08:02.233]THE UNITED STATES ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:08:03.934]SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT MORALITY AND JUSTICE REQUIRE AN
- [00:08:09.233]EYE-FOR-AN-EYE IN THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES, OTHERS BELIEVE
- [00:08:12.200]IT'S IMMORAL AND IMPROPER FOR THE STATE TO BE INVOLVED IN
- [00:08:17.033]KILLING ITS OWN CITIZENS UNDER ANY CIRCLES.
- [00:08:20.200]POINTS OF VIEW OF THOSE WHO DEFEND OR OPPOSE CAPITAL
- [00:08:25.233]PUNISHMENT ON EMPIRICAL OR QUASI-EMPIRICAL GROUNDS, COST
- [00:08:30.800]EFFECTIVENESS, DISTRIBUTED JUSTICE, PUBLIC SAFETY, AND THE
- [00:08:35.066]FREQUENCY OF PROCEDURAL ERROR.
- [00:08:38.767]AMONG WESTERN DEMOCRACIES, ONLY THE UNITED STATES
- [00:08:42.834]PERMITS CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
- [00:08:44.133]33 STATES INCLUDING NEBRASKA ALLOW FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:08:47.367]A GOOD ARGUMENT THAT THE DEATH PENALTY FITS EASILY WITH
- [00:08:50.000]THE FORM OF DEMOCRACY.
- [00:08:51.867]THE LEGAL SYSTEM HAS DEVELOPED A GREAT EMPHASIS ON DUE PROCESS.
- [00:08:55.100]WE KNOW THERE ARE TIMES THAT DESPITE PROCEDURE, INNOCENT
- [00:08:58.266]PEOPLE ARE PUT IN PRISON AND ON DEATH ROW AND
- [00:09:02.133]PERHAPS EVEN EXECUTED.
- [00:09:02.500]BUT IN FACT AS THE SUPREME COURT HAS POINTED OUT, THE
- [00:09:05.700]CONSTITUTION CONTEMPLATES THE DEATH PENALTY, PARTICULARLY IN
- [00:09:11.166]THE 14th AMENDMENT IN WHICH A PERSON CANNOT BE DEPRIVED OF
- [00:09:15.934]LIFE, LIBERTY OR PROPERTY WITHOUT THE PROCESS OF LAW.
- [00:09:19.300]WITH THE PROCESS OF LAW, ONE CAN BE SO DEPRIVED AND IT CAN BE SAY
- [00:09:24.800]MOST PEOPLE WHO WERE EXECUTED GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED AND
- [00:09:30.200]COLLATERAL BENEFITS INCLUDING DETERRENTS, STAFF, AND
- [00:09:33.333]CLOSURE FOR THE FAMILIES.
- [00:09:35.667]AND DR. ROBERT PUTNAM SAID THE UNITED STATES IS POSSIBLY THE
- [00:09:39.200]MOST RELIGIOUS COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
- [00:09:40.633]THIS RAISES THE FURTHER QUESTION OF WHETHER THE DEATH PENALTY'S
- [00:09:43.934]BROAD ACCEPTANCE IN THE UNITED STATES CONFIRMS OUR RELIGION
- [00:09:55.367]OR CONTRADICTS IT.
- [00:09:58.300]HERE ARE TWO DISTINGUISHED SPEAKERS.
- [00:10:10.033]THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN MEDICAL SCHOOL AND SPENT 22
- [00:10:13.266]YEARS IN THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA BEFORE MOVING TO THE
- [00:10:15.633]UNIVERSITY COLORADO BOULDER.
- [00:10:17.600]PROFESSOR RATLIFF SERVED AS CHAIR AT FLORIDA AND COLORADO.
- [00:10:23.066]THE RESEARCH FOCUSES ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, ESPECIALLY THE
- [00:10:26.600]PROBLEM OF ERRONEOUS CONVICTION.
- [00:10:29.333]THEY SHALL BUY US UNETHICAL ISSUES FACED BY HIS PERSONNEL
- [00:10:33.834]INVOLVED IN CAPITAL CASES AND EXECUTION.
- [00:10:36.266]RATLIFF HAS TESTIFIED IN APPROXIMATELY 75 DEATH PENALTY
- [00:10:42.667]CASES BEFORE COMMITTING TO THE U.S. AND
- [00:10:47.667]HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
- [00:10:48.133]HE'S WORKED WITH SCORES OF DEATH ROW INMATES AND THE FAMILIES OF
- [00:10:51.433]HOMICIDE VICTIMS IN COLORADO.
- [00:10:52.834]IN 2011, HE RECEIVED A DISTINGUISHED ALUMNI AWARD FROM
- [00:10:58.700]PERDUE AND AN AWARD FOR LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT FROM THE SOCIETY
- [00:11:03.700]OF SOCIAL PROBLEMS.
- [00:11:05.433]HE EARNED OTHER LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS AS WELL I
- [00:11:08.800]LEARNED THIS EVENING.
- [00:11:10.000]IN 2012, HE RECEIVED A CAMPUS WIDE AWARD FOR RESEARCH AT THE
- [00:11:16.066]UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO BOULDER FACILITY.
- [00:11:18.433]AFTER TONIGHT'S DEBATE, HE'LL BE IN THE LOBBY TO SIGN BOOKS,
- [00:11:22.033]INCLUDING HIS BOOK "FACING THE DEATH PENALTY" AND HIS BOOK, "IN
- [00:11:25.934]SPITE OF INNOCENCE," PLEASE JOIN ME IN WELCOMING THE PROFESSOR.
- [00:11:34.266][ APPLAUSE ] >> MR. BROWN IS A GRADUATE OF
- [00:11:46.967]THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA LINCOLN AND THE COLLEGE OF LAW.
- [00:11:49.367]AFTER LAW SCHOOL, HE WAS A LAW CLERK TO JUSTICE QUINTON AND
- [00:11:54.033]JUSTICE SPENCER OF THE NEBRASKA SUPREME COURT.
- [00:11:56.667]HE SERVED AS THE FIRST GENERAL IN 2003 TO 2012.
- [00:12:03.567]HE'S SERVED AS THE CHIEF OF THE CRIMINAL APPELLATE SECTION AND
- [00:12:08.500]THE CHIEF OF THE CIVIL LITIGATION SECTION IN NEBRASKA.
- [00:12:11.433]FOR THREE DECADES, MR. BROWN HAS BEEN THE STATE OF NEBRASKA'S
- [00:12:15.133]PRIMARY COUNSEL IN PRIMARY CASES AND COUNCIL OF RECORD IN THREE
- [00:12:19.400]EXECUTIONS SINCE 1976.
- [00:12:24.600]HE'S THE COUNSEL OF RECORD AND HE'S JOINED AMICUS METORIOS ON
- [00:12:34.300]SHARROW VERSUS SUNDERLAND IN 2003.
- [00:12:37.133]THE ATTORNEYS GENERAL, U.S.
- [00:12:39.700]SUPREME COURT BEST BRIEF AWARD FOR HIS BRIEF IN
- [00:12:43.367]VICTOR VERSUS NEBRASKA.
- [00:12:44.066]HE'S THE ORIGINAL MEMBER AND CURRENTLY THE DIRECTOR AT LARGE
- [00:12:47.033]IN THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS IN CAPITAL LITIGATION AND HE SERVED
- [00:12:50.900]AS PRESIDENT IN 1984.
- [00:12:52.600]IN 1985, HE RECEIVED THE ASSOCIATION'S OUTSTANDING
- [00:12:56.033]APPELLATE ADVOCACY AWARDS.
- [00:12:58.700]AND IN 2007, HE WAS AWARDED THE WILLIAM SCHAFFER AWARD FOR THE
- [00:13:03.433]CONTRIBUTIONS OF CAPITAL LAW AND TRAINING.
- [00:13:06.400]MR. BROWN WAS THE GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT
- [00:13:09.467]OF CORRECTIONS FROM 1995 TO 2001 WHEN HE WITNESSED EXECUTIONS.
- [00:13:15.667]HE SERVED INTERESTINGLY AS A JUROR IN THE CAPITAL CASE IN
- [00:13:19.100]TEXAS IN WHICH A DEFENDANT WAS CONVICTED AND EXECUTED.
- [00:13:22.500]PLEASE JOIN ME IN WELCOMING
- [00:13:25.400]MR. J. KIRK BROWN.
- [00:13:27.400][ APPLAUSE ] GENTLE
- [00:13:35.734]GENTLEMEN, YOU WILL HAVE FIVE MINUTES TO MAKE
- [00:13:37.367]AN OPENING STATEMENT.
- [00:13:37.734]WE'LL START WITH YOU, MR. BROWN?
- [00:13:42.767]>> THANK YOU, GOOD EVENING.
- [00:13:43.700]I DO NOT SPEAK TO YOU TONIGHT ON BEHALF OF THE STATE OF NEBRASKA
- [00:13:47.100]OR ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL.
- [00:13:50.734]THE OPINIONS I OFFER ARE SOLELY MY OWN BASED UPON MY EXPOSURE TO
- [00:13:55.867]THIS ISSUE AS AN ATTORNEY WORKING THIS GROUND FOR OVER 30
- [00:13:59.433]YEARS, AS A CORRECTIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, AS A JUROR SEATED
- [00:14:03.300]TO DECIDE A CAPITAL CASE, AND TO A LESSER EXTENT, AS A LINCOLN
- [00:14:10.133]FOURTH GRADER WHO WITNESSED THE IMPACT CHARLES STARKWEATHER'S
- [00:14:16.500]MURDEROUS REIGN OF TERROR HAD ON THIS COMMUNITY
- [00:14:19.300]AND ON THIS STATE.
- [00:14:19.633]I THINK WE HAVE TO BEGIN WITH THE FACT THAT WE ARE A
- [00:14:24.600]COUNTRY OF LAWS.
- [00:14:25.333]AND AS A MATTER OF LAW, THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT TO PUNISH
- [00:14:30.200]CRIME IS LIMITED BY THE CONSTITUTION.
- [00:14:32.333]OUR CONSTITUTION HAS NEVER BEEN HELD TO DENY GOVERNMENT THE
- [00:14:35.900]POWER TO IMPOSE DEATH AS A PUNISHMENT FOR THE
- [00:14:41.200]WORST OF MURDERS.
- [00:14:41.567]NOR DOES IT APPEAR WE'RE MORALLY PROHIBITED FROM IMPOSING DEATH
- [00:14:44.734]AS CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
- [00:14:46.867]I WAS RAISED ON THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE
- [00:14:50.333]WHICH CONTAINED THE COMMANDMENT, "THOU SHALT NOT KILL."
- [00:14:55.367]HOWEVER, EVEN AS A CHILD, I WAS AWARE THAT SOCIETY RECOGNIZED
- [00:14:59.000]AND EVEN PRAISED EXCEPTIONS TO THAT OTHERWISE
- [00:15:04.834]UNAMBIGUOUS PROHIBITION.
- [00:15:05.233]I RECENTLY FOUND IT INTERESTING TO DISCOVER THAT A SIGNIFICANT
- [00:15:10.433]MAJORITY OF CURRENT TRANSLATIONS OF THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE NOW
- [00:15:14.633]INTERPRET THAT COMMANDMENT AS "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER."
- [00:15:19.867]IN THE CONTEXT OF TONIGHT'S DISCUSSION, THAT IS A
- [00:15:23.467]SIGNIFICANT CHANGE FROM THE KING JAMES TEXT.
- [00:15:25.867]MURDER IS DEFINED AS AN UNLAWFUL KILLING.
- [00:15:29.133]THERE COULD BE NO CLEARER EXAMPLE OF A LAWFUL KILLING AN
- [00:15:34.300]EXECUTION DULY ORDERED BY A COURT OF LAW.
- [00:15:37.633]THUS DEATH THE WORST OF MURDERS IS A PUNISHMENT SOCIETY IS
- [00:15:41.734]LEGALLY AND MORALLY AT LIBERTY TO IMPOSE IF IT CHOOSES.
- [00:15:45.200]FIRST DEGREE MURDER IS THE CRIME FOR WHICH WE AUTHORIZE THE
- [00:15:48.533]MOST SEVERE PUNISHMENT.
- [00:15:49.734]IT IS THE INTENTIONAL AND PREMEDITATED KILLING OF
- [00:15:54.834]ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
- [00:15:55.667]HOWEVER, THE SPECTRUM OF EVIL THAT FALLS WITHIN THAT LEGAL
- [00:16:00.166]DEFINITION IS AMAZINGLY AND FRIGHTENINGLY BROAD.
- [00:16:05.467]IT INCLUDES NOT ONLY THE INTENTIONAL KILLING OF A VICTIM,
- [00:16:09.533]BUT HAS INCLUDED THE MURDER OF A VICTIM BY TORTURE, THE MURDER OF
- [00:16:12.800]A CHILD, THE MURDER OF NOT JUST ONE BUT TWO OR THREE OR HUNDREDS
- [00:16:20.233]OR THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS.
- [00:16:22.600]THERE'S CURRENTLY AGREEMENT THAT A PUNISHMENT OF LIFE
- [00:16:27.200]IMPRISONMENT IS A JUST PUNISHMENT FOR MOST
- [00:16:31.033]FIRST DEGREE MURDERERS.
- [00:16:31.400]IN NEBRASKA, 90% OF FIRST DEGREE MURDERERS ARE SENTENCED TO LIFE.
- [00:16:36.533]IS LIFE IN PRISON A JUST PUNISHMENT FOR EVERY
- [00:16:39.900]FIRST DEGREE MURDERER?
- [00:16:40.767]OR IS THERE SOME POINT ON THAT SPECTRUM OF EVIL WHEN A
- [00:16:44.900]CIVILIZED AND RATIONAL SOCIETY SAYS THAT IS ENOUGH.
- [00:16:48.533]A PERSON GUILTY OF THAT ACT DESERVES TO DIE.
- [00:16:55.266]LEGISLATIVE BODIES OF OVER 30 STATES IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
- [00:16:58.066]HAVE SAID YES.
- [00:17:00.900]THERE ARE MURDERS SO VILE IT IS A JUST PUNISHMENT, THE ONLY
- [00:17:05.967]PUNISHMENT THAT ACKNOWLEDGES THE SEVERITY OF
- [00:17:09.500]THIS PARTICULAR CRIME.
- [00:17:11.834]SOME CANNOT BE TRUSTED BECAUSE IT'S MADE UP OF HUMAN JUDGES,
- [00:17:15.500]HUMAN LAWYERS, AND HUMAN JURORS ALL LISTENING
- [00:17:20.400]TO HUMAN WITNESSES.
- [00:17:20.767]OUR LEGAL SYSTEM RECOGNIZES THE POTENTIAL FOR HUMAN ERROR AND
- [00:17:24.500]GUARDS AGAINST IT BY USE OF STANDARDS AND PROCEDURES WHICH
- [00:17:27.500]RADICALLY TILT THE LEGAL PLAYING FIELD IN FAVOR OF AN ACCUSED.
- [00:17:31.800]AND BY PROVIDING MULTIPLE LAYERS OF POST-TRIAL, STATE, AND
- [00:17:38.467]FEDERAL JUDICIAL REVIEW.
- [00:17:42.600]U.S. SUPREME COURT STATED THAT OUR COURTS ARE ONLY REQUIRED TO
- [00:17:46.133]ACCOMPLISH WHAT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
- [00:17:52.500]OF THE OVER 1,000 EXECUTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY SINCE 1976, NOT ONE
- [00:17:56.734]IS PROVEN TO HAVE ENDED THE LIFE OF A HUMAN BEING
- [00:18:00.700]WHO IS NOT GUILTY.
- [00:18:01.967]FINALLY, DURING THESE HARD ECONOMIC TIMES, THE ANTI-DEATH
- [00:18:06.500]PENALTY ARGUMENT DU JOUR HAS BEEN THAT OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE
- [00:18:13.533]IS TOO SLOW AND TOO EXPENSIVE.
- [00:18:15.533]IT'S SLOW BECAUSE IT IS BEING CAREFUL.
- [00:18:19.633]THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS EXPENSIVE, BECAUSE IT IS LEANING
- [00:18:22.734]OVER BACKWARDS TO BE FAIR TO THE CONDEMNED MURDERER.
- [00:18:28.367]AS GENERAL PROPOSITIONS, I FIND THOSE GOALS WORTHY OF PRAISE,
- [00:18:33.934]NOT CRITICISM.
- [00:18:36.800]THANK YOU.
- [00:18:41.700]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:18:43.266]MR. RADELET, FIVE MINUTES.
- [00:18:46.100]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:18:46.567]I THINK IT'S A JOY FOR THE STATE OF NEBRASKA AND THE UNIVERSITY
- [00:18:49.900]OF NEBRASKA COMMUNITY AND IT'S AN HONOR TO BE INVITED TO COME
- [00:18:52.834]OUT HERE TO LINCOLN TO BE PARTICIPATED IN IT.
- [00:18:55.633]I WANT TO THANK THE STUDENTS AND FACULTY WITH WHOM I'VE
- [00:19:00.400]INTERACTED TODAY FOR THEIR HOSPITALITY.
- [00:19:03.667]AND ESPECIALLY WE ALL OWE OUR GRATITUDE TO LINDA AND CHUCK
- [00:19:10.200]WILSON WHO GENEROUSLY SUPPORT NOT ONLY TONIGHT'S EVENT BUT
- [00:19:13.900]DIALOGUE ON A WIDE ARRAY OF DOMESTIC ISSUES.
- [00:19:17.367]IT'S A SPECIAL HONOR TO BE ON THE STAGE TONIGHT WITH TWO OTHER
- [00:19:21.166]GUESTS THAT WE HAVE.
- [00:19:24.567]SUSAN SUSAN KOZER IS AN ALUMNI AND
- [00:19:30.567]WE'RE FORTUNATE SHE PURSUED A CAREER IN LAW OTHER THAN HER
- [00:19:34.834]UNDERGRADUATE MAJOR WHICH WAS ANCIENT GREEK.
- [00:19:37.900]NOT A LOT OF JOBS THERE.
- [00:19:39.500]THERE COULD BE NO DOUBT AT ALL THAT MR. KIRK BROWN KNOWS MORE
- [00:19:42.934]ABOUT DEATH PENALTY CASES AND LAWS THAN ANYONE
- [00:19:46.033]ELSE ON THE PLANET.
- [00:19:46.367]SO NEEDLESS TO SAY, I'M HOPING TONIGHT I'LL NOT BE ASKED ANY
- [00:19:49.967]SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT NEBRASKA LAW MUCH
- [00:19:53.633]LESS ANCIENT GREEK.
- [00:19:53.967]BUT I ALSO, BEFORE I BEGIN, I WANT TO SAY I KNOW A LOT OF
- [00:19:57.367]STUDENTS OUT THERE IN -- OUT THERE IN CYBERSPACE HAVE TO DO
- [00:20:00.867]PAPERS ON TONIGHT'S PRESENTATIONS AND REACT TO IT.
- [00:20:03.133]AND IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT I CAN DO TO HELP YOUR FOOTNOTES OR
- [00:20:07.500]MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY, I WON'T GIVE YOU MY
- [00:20:10.000]CELL PHONE NUMBER, BUT MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS SIMPLY
- [00:20:16.967]RADELET@COLORADO.EDU.
- [00:20:17.533]I'D BE HAPPY TO RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS IN A YOU MAY HAVE.
- [00:20:21.367]AND ALSO AFTER THE EVENT TONIGHT, THERE'LL BE
- [00:20:25.667]REPRESENTATIVES OF NEBRASKANS AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY
- [00:20:27.867]OUTSIDE AND THEY, TOO, WILL BE AVAILABLE TO HELP
- [00:20:30.867]WITH ANY QUESTIONS.
- [00:20:31.233]FROM THE START, I THINK WE ALL AGREE THAT THOSE WHO COMMIT THE
- [00:20:35.467]MOST HORRENDOUS CRIMES SHOULD BE PUNISHED AND PUNISHED SEVERELY.
- [00:20:39.834]WHILE A FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF JUSTICE IS THAT THOSE WHO COMMIT
- [00:20:43.800]THE MOST HORRENDOUS CRIMES SHOULD RECEIVE THE MOST SEVERE
- [00:20:46.900]PENALTIES, THAT DOES NOT TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THAT MOST
- [00:20:49.867]SEVERE PENALTY SHOULD BE.
- [00:20:51.800]THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT DO PEOPLE DESERVE IS
- [00:20:56.467]CULTURALLY AND HISTORICALLY RELATIVE, IT'S NOT FIXED.
- [00:21:00.433]UNTIL 1977 IN THE UNITED STATES, PEOPLE USED THIS SLIPPERY NOTION
- [00:21:05.767]OF JUSTICE TO JUSTIFY EXECUTIONS FOR THOSE CONVICTED OF RAPE.
- [00:21:13.100]UNTIL THE U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION IN 2002, JUSTICE
- [00:21:17.967]DEMANDED THE EXECUTION OF DEFENDANTS WHO
- [00:21:21.900]WERE MENTALLY RETARDED.
- [00:21:22.300]UNTIL 2005, JUSTICE DEMANDED THE EXECUTION OF KIDS AGE 16 OR 17
- [00:21:27.266]AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME.
- [00:21:29.500]HISTORICALLY, JUSTICE DEMANDED ALL SORTS OF SEVERE RETRIBUTION
- [00:21:33.934]AND REPULSIVE PUNISHMENTS SUCH AS DRAWING, QUARTERING,
- [00:21:39.400]OR BEING BEHEADED.
- [00:21:39.767]IN 1900 IN COLORADO, NOT TOO FAR FROM THE NEBRASKA BORDER, A
- [00:21:43.667]CROWD OF SEVERAL HUNDRED LYNCHED A 16-YEAR-OLD KID NAMED PRESTON
- [00:21:47.600]PORTER BY LITERALLY BURNING HIM AT THE STAKE, NO DOUBT USING THE
- [00:21:51.233]SAME JUSTIFICATION OF PUNISHMENT WE HEAR TODAY, HE
- [00:21:58.066]DESERVED IT, HE HAD IT COMING, JUSTICE DEMANDS IT.
- [00:22:01.767]THE QUESTION TONIGHT IS WHETHER THE EVOLVING STANDARDS OF
- [00:22:05.133]DECENCY AND GROWING RECOGNITION THAT THOSE WITH THE PENALTY
- [00:22:08.700]ALLOW US TO SCRAP THE DEATH PENALTY FOREVER.
- [00:22:17.734]CLEARLY OUR STANDARDS OF DECENCY ARE EVOLVING.
- [00:22:23.400]WE'RE ABOLISHING THE DEATH PENALTY AND DOING SO WITH A
- [00:22:26.700]SPEED NO ONE WOULD HAVE ANTICIPATED WHEN NEBRASKA
- [00:22:29.600]ENACTED THE CURRENT DEATH PENALTY STATUTE IN 1973.
- [00:22:32.066]IN 1977, THERE WERE ONLY 16 COUNTRIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD
- [00:22:36.000]THAT IT ABOLISHED THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:22:39.200]TODAY THAT FIGURE STANDS AT 97.
- [00:22:41.600]A TOTAL OF 141 JURISDICTIONS, OR 2/3 OF ALL COUNTRIES ON THIS
- [00:22:47.967]PLANET HAVE ABOLISHED THE DEATH PENALTY IN LAW OR IN PRACTICE.
- [00:22:50.900]LAST WEEK, A TOTAL OF 110 COUNTRIES, A U.N. GENERAL
- [00:22:57.000]ASSEMBLY BACKED A RESOLUTION CALLING FOR THE WORLDWIDE
- [00:23:00.700]ABOLITION OF THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:23:02.400]ONLY 39 OPPOSED IT, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, SYRIA, AND
- [00:23:08.567]THE UNITED STATES.
- [00:23:09.633]WE'RE NOT IN GOOD COMPANY.
- [00:23:12.166]UNITED STATES DEATH SENTENCES IN 2011 FELL BELOW 100 FOR THE
- [00:23:15.800]FIRST TIME SINCE 1976.
- [00:23:17.633]OVERALL, THAT SENTENCING RATE IN OUR COUNTRY HAVE FALLEN BY 75%
- [00:23:22.467]SINCE THE MID 1990s.
- [00:23:24.934]EXECUTIONS HAVE ALSO DROPPED OFF.
- [00:23:27.200]FOR THE PAST SIX YEARS, THE NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS IN THE U.S.
- [00:23:30.734]IS HALF OF WHAT IT WAS IN 1999.
- [00:23:33.333]IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS, THE DEATH PENALTY HAS BEEN ABOLISHED
- [00:23:36.667]IN NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY, NEW MEXICO, ILLINOIS, CONNECTICUT.
- [00:23:42.433]OREGON GOVERNOR PLEDGED THERE WOULD BE NO EXECUTIONS AS LONG
- [00:23:45.433]AS HE WAS GOVERNOR.
- [00:23:46.400]IN NEBRASKA IN 2007 AND IN COLORADO IN 2009, THE
- [00:23:50.900]LEGISLATORS FAILED TO ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY
- [00:23:56.600]BY ONE SINGLE VOTE.
- [00:24:01.333]NEBRASKA SENATE VOTED TO ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY AND IN 1999,
- [00:24:06.100]THEY VOTED TO HAVE A MORATORIUM ON DEATH SENTENCING, BOTH WERE
- [00:24:10.333]VETOED BY THE GOVERNOR.
- [00:24:18.467]ABOLITION IS COMING.
- [00:24:20.567]PUBLIC SUPPORT OF THE DEATH PENALTY HAS TAKEN A DRAMATIC
- [00:24:25.233]FALL SINCE 1994 WHEN THE WELL RESPECTED NEBRASKA OUTFIT, THE
- [00:24:30.500]GALLUP ORGANIZATION, FOUND THAT 80% OF AMERICANS
- [00:24:34.667]SUPPORTED EXECUTIONS.
- [00:24:35.066]THE LAST NATIONAL POLL ON THE DEATH PENALTY, THE 2012 AMERICAN
- [00:24:38.500]VALUES SURVEY CONDUCTED BY THE PUBLIC RELIGION RESEARCH
- [00:24:41.667]INSTITUTION AND RELEASED EARLIER THIS MONTH FOUND THAT ONLY 46%
- [00:24:46.233]OF AMERICA SUPPORTED THE DEATH PENALTY, 47% SUPPORTED THE
- [00:24:51.667]ALTERNATIVE OF LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:24:53.767]IT'S A HUMONGOUSLY HUGE IMMENSE BIG O TURN OF PUBLIC OPINION IN
- [00:25:01.433]A SHORT TIME.
- [00:25:02.433]TONIGHT I LOOK FORWARD TO SHARING WITH YOU THE LEADERS
- [00:25:06.166]THAT TELL YOU THE DEATH PENALTY AROUND THE WORLD IS
- [00:25:08.633]ON THE WAY OUT.
- [00:25:08.900]THANK YOU.
- [00:25:09.600]>> THANK YOU, PROFESSOR RADELET.
- [00:25:12.500]I WENT -- YOU WENT OVER YOUR TIME.
- [00:25:15.233]BUT SINCE YOU MENTIONED SWATHMORE, I GAVE YOU A COUPLE
- [00:25:19.567]OF EXTRA MINUTES.
- [00:25:21.367]FIRST QUESTION, WE'LL START VERY BROADLY AND GENERALLY BEFORE WE
- [00:25:25.166]GET MORE SPECIFIC.
- [00:25:25.800]EACH DEBATER WILL HAVE THREE MINUTES FOR INITIAL REP RESPONSE
- [00:25:28.867]TO EACH QUESTION.
- [00:25:29.500]MR. BROWN, THERE ARE MANY THEORIES ABOUT THE GOAL OF THE
- [00:25:32.467]CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
- [00:25:33.333]SOME PEOPLE THINK IT'S DETERRENCE, WHILE OTHERS THINK
- [00:25:36.967]IT'S RETRIBUTION, PUBLIC SAFETY, OR REHABILITATION.
- [00:25:40.066]WHICH GOAL OR GOALS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ARE MOST
- [00:25:43.734]FURTHERED BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
- [00:25:49.800]>> THE STRONGEST ARGUMENT IS IT IS AN APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR
- [00:25:53.266]THE WORST OF CRIMES.
- [00:25:56.433]THAT IS ANOTHER WORD FOR RETRIBUTION.
- [00:25:59.734]WE CREATE THE PENALTIES FOR OUR CRIMES TO REFLECT -- WE CALL
- [00:26:02.800]THEM OFFENSES BECAUSE AS A SOCIETY, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE
- [00:26:05.934]OFFENDED BY THE BEHAVIOR.
- [00:26:12.367]IN THE CASE OF THE WORST HOMICIDE, THAT'S ALL THAT'S
- [00:26:15.300]EXPOSED TO THE DEATH PENALTY IN THIS COUNTRY, I THINK
- [00:26:18.567]RETRIBUTION IS AN APPROPRIATE AND PROPORTIONAL PUNISHMENT TO
- [00:26:21.633]SOME OF THESE CRIMES IS A JUSTIFICATION IN AND OF ITSELF.
- [00:26:26.734]I THINK DETERRENCE IS A MUCH MORE COMPLEX ISSUE.
- [00:26:29.000]THERE ARE STUDIES AND ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES.
- [00:26:31.934]I THINK THE OVERARCHING THING IS THAT THERE IS A LOGIC TO IT.
- [00:26:37.433]IF PEOPLE THINK THEY MIGHT BE PUNISHED, THEY WILL -- SOME OF
- [00:26:41.934]THEM, AT LEAST, WILL DECLINE TO ENGAGE IN THAT BEHAVIOR.
- [00:26:47.633]I THINK THERE ARE REASONS PERSONALLY TO ME THAT MAKE
- [00:26:52.100]ME QUESTION THAT.
- [00:26:52.600]BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS WITH THE DETERRENCE, IF IT GIVES THE
- [00:26:56.800]PUBLIC A SENSE OF ENHANCED SAFETY TO LIVE THEIR LIVES AND
- [00:27:00.367]PUT THEIR CHILDREN TO BED AND LEAVE THEM THERE AND THINK
- [00:27:03.767]THEY'RE SAFE, THEN IT ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING OF A
- [00:27:07.200]SOCIAL GOOD IN AND OF ITSELF.
- [00:27:08.867]BEYOND THAT, I THINK THE RETRIBUTION ARGUMENT
- [00:27:12.266]STANDS ON ITS OWN.
- [00:27:13.233]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:27:16.900]>> PROFESSOR RADELET, WILL YOU ADDRESS THE QUESTION OF THE GOAL
- [00:27:21.100]OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT YOU THINK IS MOST FURTHERED
- [00:27:24.300]BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
- [00:27:25.767]>> SURE.
- [00:27:26.400]I THINK THE GOAL OF RETRIBUTION IS CORRECT.
- [00:27:28.967]THIS IS HISTORICALLY RELATIVE.
- [00:27:31.133]BACK IN THE 19th CENTURY, NEARLY UP TO THE MID 70s, THE PRIMARY
- [00:27:36.200]GOAL WAS DETERRENCE.
- [00:27:37.367]BUT AFTER SOCIAL SCIENCES BEGAN TO STUDY THE DETERRENCE ISSUE
- [00:27:41.367]AND WHETHER OR NOT THE STATES HAD MORE HOMICIDE RATES THAN
- [00:27:44.967]STATES WITHOUT MOST AMERICANS NOW HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION
- [00:27:47.600]NOW THAT THE DETERRENT FACTOR OF THE DEATH PENALTY IS NOT ANY
- [00:27:52.133]GREATER IN THE DETERRENT EFFECT OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:27:55.066]THE DEATH PENALTY IS A DETERRENT.
- [00:27:57.700]WE KNOW THAT.
- [00:27:58.300]LAST NIGHT I DROVE DOWN FROM OMAHA.
- [00:28:00.133]THERE'S A COP BEHIND ME.
- [00:28:01.367]IF I THOUGHT THE COP WAS GOING TO SHOOT ME FOR SPEEDING,
- [00:28:05.333]I WOULDN'T HAVE SPED.
- [00:28:06.633]RIGHT?
- [00:28:06.934]THE DEATH PENALTY DETERS.
- [00:28:08.767]OUR QUESTION AS A SOCIAL POLICY POINT IS WHETHER THE DEATH
- [00:28:12.066]PENALTY IS A BETTER DETERRENT THAN LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:28:19.066]IT'S A MARGINAL DETERRENT.
- [00:28:20.834]NEBRASKA DOES HAVE LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:28:23.800]ANYBODY ELIGIBLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY NOT SENTENCED TO DEATH
- [00:28:25.934]WILL BE SENTENCED TO LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:28:27.800]THAT'S TRUE FOR ALL OF THE OTHER 33 STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY
- [00:28:31.467]THAT ALSO HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:28:33.600]IF WE WANTED TO DETER PEOPLE, THE CERTAINTY OF APPREHENSION
- [00:28:37.967]WAS A MUCH STRONGER DETERRENT THAN THE SEVERITY OF THE
- [00:28:41.333]PUNISHMENT, THAT IS YOU AND I GET FOLLOWED BY A COP, CERTAINTY
- [00:28:44.667]INCREASES, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SPEED.
- [00:28:46.934]WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PENALTY IS.
- [00:28:48.967]BUT THE CERTAINTY OF BEING APPREHENDED IS THE SEVERITY.
- [00:28:53.533]AND SEVERITY, AFTER A WHILE, PLUS ANY
- [00:28:59.900]ADDED DETERRENT EFFECT.
- [00:29:00.333]BY THAT I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO DETER PEOPLE FROM
- [00:29:05.567]SITTING ON THE STOVE, MEDIUM HEAT WORKS JUST AS
- [00:29:09.500]WELL AS HIGH HEAT.
- [00:29:09.800]PEOPLE AREN'T DETERRED BY LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE, THEY WON'T BE
- [00:29:13.533]DETERRED BY DEATH.
- [00:29:14.500]WHEN NEW MEXICO ABOLISHED THE DEATH PENALTY LAST YEAR, WE
- [00:29:17.166]DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM COLORADO WHO STILL HAD THE DEATH
- [00:29:20.233]PENALTY DRIVING SOUTH TO SANTA FE TO DO THEIR 7-ELEVEN MURDERS
- [00:29:24.066]OR KILL THEIR SPOUSE.
- [00:29:29.667]THE DEATH PENALTY DOES NOT HAVE ADDED DETERRENT EFFECTS.
- [00:29:36.166]OFTEN THE NAMES OF THE HOMICIDE VICTIMS AS THE PRIMARY
- [00:29:40.266]PRO DEATH ARGUMENT.
- [00:29:40.633]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:29:42.834]MR. BROWN, SIR, HOW DO WE RECONCILE THE GOAL OF
- [00:29:48.533]RETRIBUTION WITH THE FACT THAT WE KNOW INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE
- [00:29:52.333]BEEN ON DEATH ROW OR PERSUADE THEM BECAUSE OF FEAR OF BEING
- [00:29:56.400]PUT TO DEATH.
- [00:29:58.100]ERIC CANNON DOES ENTER THE SYSTEM THROUGH INADEQUATELY
- [00:30:01.400]TRAINED LAWYERS, LACK OF RESOURCES, INVESTIGATION, AND
- [00:30:05.166]FEAR OF BIAS.
- [00:30:06.000]ALL OF THE PROCESSES OF THE WORLD AND THE HEINOUSNESS OF THE
- [00:30:10.433]CRIME WON'T PROHIBIT THEM FROM BEING SENTENCED TO DEATH.
- [00:30:12.934]SHOULD THAT BE A TRUMP CARD?
- [00:30:17.200]>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A TRUMP CARD.
- [00:30:19.000]IT'S A LEGITIMATE CONCERN BUT IT'S ONE THAT THE SYSTEM THAT WE
- [00:30:21.900]HAVE ADDRESSES NOW.
- [00:30:23.266]THE MOST STANDARD ISSUE, THE SECOND ROUND OF REVIEW OF ANY
- [00:30:26.900]CRIMINAL SENTENCE, DEATH PENALTY OR OTHERWISE, IS DID THE FIRST
- [00:30:34.333]SET OF LAWYERS DO A GOOD JOB FOR THEIR CLIENT.
- [00:30:39.300]WE'VE HAD THE EXONERATIONS.
- [00:30:41.200]IT'S A HUMAN SYSTEM.
- [00:30:44.200]WE CAN'T GUARANTEE THERE WILL NOT BE HUMAN ERROR.
- [00:30:48.967]WE CAN GUARANTEE WE'LL PUT THE EYES OF A LOT OF DECENT HUMAN
- [00:30:53.266]BEINGS ON THESE CASES AS THE APPELLATE COURTS REVIEW
- [00:30:59.033]WHAT IS GOING ON.
- [00:30:59.600]AND AS FAR AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE, WE WILL GUARANTEE THE RIGHT
- [00:31:02.667]RESULT HAS BEEN REACHED.
- [00:31:03.967]NOW, THAT'S THE LAW.
- [00:31:05.633]THAT'S THE LEGAL SYSTEM.
- [00:31:10.200]AS FAR AS DETERMINING GUILT, WE DON'T USE A DIFFERENT DEATH
- [00:31:17.266]PENALTY CASES THAN WE DO IN BURGLARY CASES.
- [00:31:21.533]NO ONE SEEMS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR SYSTEM IN DETERMINING
- [00:31:26.400]THE ARMED ROBBERS AND IT'S THE SAME SYSTEM WE USE FOR DEATH.
- [00:31:31.834]THIS COUNTRY IS HISTORICALLY FAIR AND TIPS THE SCALES IN THE
- [00:31:38.333]FAVOR OF THE ACCUSED AND PROVIDES EXTENSIVE REVIEW OF THE
- [00:31:44.233]DECISIONS AND MANY OF THE QUOTE/UNQUOTE EXONERATIONS ARE
- [00:31:48.533]ERRORS FOUND IN THE NORMAL REVIEW OF THE CASE AND IT'S THE
- [00:31:54.734]NORMAL REVIEW IN THE FIRST PLACE.
- [00:31:56.834]WE DECIDE AN ERROR HAS BEEN COMMITTED OR DETERMINE THAT NO
- [00:32:00.100]ERROR HAS BEEN COMMITTED AND TO HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE IN THE
- [00:32:06.166]RESULT THAT OUR SYSTEM HAS PRESENTED OR PROVIDED.
- [00:32:09.567]>> PROFESSOR RADELET.
- [00:32:13.767]THE SYSTEM TIPS IN FAVOR OF THE ACCUSED IN THESE CASES?
- [00:32:16.767]>> I'M SORRY?
- [00:32:17.633]>> THEY TIP IN FAVOR OF THE ACCUSED?
- [00:32:21.867]>> IN THE LAST 30 YEARS THERE HAVE BEEN 140 PEOPLE ON DEATH
- [00:32:29.834]ROW RELEASED BECAUSE OF THE DOUBT OF THEIR GUILTY.
- [00:32:33.867]BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT DOES NOT MEAN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.
- [00:32:39.233]THAT'S NOT THE STANDARD IN THIS CASE.
- [00:32:41.066]THE ODDS THEY'RE GUILTY.
- [00:32:42.767]95%.
- [00:32:43.133]IS THAT A 5% ERROR RATE.
- [00:32:45.734]FOR EVERY 100 PEOPLE YOU SEND TO DEATH ROW,
- [00:32:53.333]YOU HAVE INNOCENT PEOPLE.
- [00:32:53.667]YOU CAN DIVIDE THAT BY THE NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS SINCE 1979
- [00:32:56.934]IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1976.
- [00:33:00.867]FOR EVERY 10 EXECUTIONS, ONE DIES ON DEATH ROW THAT TURNS OUT
- [00:33:04.967]THE BE INNOCENT.
- [00:33:05.667]OR PROBABLY INNOCENT.
- [00:33:06.266]IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACTS OF THE CASE OF THE DISCOVERY OF THE
- [00:33:11.700]INNOCENT, IT'S NOT BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WORKS.
- [00:33:14.266]NOT BECAUSE THEY REVISIT THE CASE.
- [00:33:19.300]IT'S USUALLY BY LADY LUCK, LUCK KIP AS CAN BE.
- [00:33:22.567]A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, ANTHONY PORTER STOPPED THE EXECUTION
- [00:33:29.400]BECAUSE HIS IQ WAS SO LOW HE COULDN'T TIE HIS SHOES.
- [00:33:33.633]MEANWHILE, CLASSES BEGAN AT NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY AND A
- [00:33:36.900]GROUP OF JOURNALISM STUDENTS JUST LIKE STUDENTS HERE AT THE
- [00:33:39.767]UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA, NAY WERE LOOKING FOR A PROJECT.
- [00:33:42.667]TAKING A CLASS IN INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.
- [00:33:45.133]SO THEY DECIDE, WELL, THIS IS SORT OF AN INTERESTING CASE.
- [00:33:51.667]THEY'RE ABOUT TO KILL THIS GUY, LET'S CHECK IT OUT.
- [00:33:53.667]THEY JUMPED IN THE VAN, DROVE TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO.
- [00:33:57.433]THEY RE-ENACTED THE CRIME ACCORDING
- [00:34:01.166]TO THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPTS.
- [00:34:01.567]I WAS STANDING HERE, I HAD A CLEAR LOOK.
- [00:34:03.633]WAIT A MINUTE, MAN, THERE'S A BUILDING IN THE WAY.
- [00:34:06.834]WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?
- [00:34:08.033]THE POLICE FILE, THE POLICE HAD ANOTHER SUSPECT.
- [00:34:10.767]THE STUDENT SAID, LET'S GO TALK TO THE -- LET'S GO CHECK OUT THE
- [00:34:14.166]GUY WHO WAS ALTERNATIVE SUSPECT.
- [00:34:16.266]THEY GO OVER TO HIS HOUSE, KNOCK ON THE DOOR.
- [00:34:19.533]COMES TO THE DOOR, YEAH, MY KID KILLED THE GUY.
- [00:34:23.166]THE S.O.B. -- THIS IS PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU CAN SAY THAT?
- [00:34:28.166]S.O.B.?
- [00:34:28.700]>> OFFICE BUILDING IS JUST DOWN THE STREET.
- [00:34:33.400]HE ROBBED HIM.
- [00:34:34.166]MY SON KILLED HIM.
- [00:34:36.433]HERE'S THE ADDRESS IN MILWAUKEE.
- [00:34:37.834]GO CHECK IT OUT.
- [00:34:40.233]SO THE STUDENTS PILE IN THE BAND.
- [00:34:42.600]THEY STOP AND THEY PICK UP A COP WHO'S PASSING HEAT.
- [00:34:45.567]DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.
- [00:34:47.233]GO TO MILWAUKEE.
- [00:34:47.934]NOT GOING DO THIS.
- [00:34:49.100]YEAH, I DID IT.
- [00:34:49.967]AND THE GUY RIPPED ME OFF.
- [00:34:51.700]SO THE NEXT THING I SEE READING THE PAPER IN FLORIDA IS THAT
- [00:34:55.834]ANTHONY PORTER IS RELEASED FROM PRISON.
- [00:34:57.700]THIS IS NOT THE SYSTEM WORKING.
- [00:34:59.500]THIS IS ABSOLUTE PURE LUCK.
- [00:35:00.900]WE'RE MAKING THESE GOD-LIKE DECISIONS WITHOUT GOD-LIKE
- [00:35:04.967]SKILLS AND IT'S NOT ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE ABSOLUTELY INNOCENT WHO
- [00:35:08.200]ARE BEING SENTENCED TO DEATH, IT'S PEOPLE WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN
- [00:35:12.934]CONVICTED OF SURE MURDER OR IN NEBRASKA SENTENCE MENTALLY ILL
- [00:35:17.100]PEOPLE TO DEATH.
- [00:35:18.133]MENTALLY RETARDED PEOPLE TO DEATH, SO WE'RE NOT REALLY GOOD
- [00:35:20.867]AT MAKING THESE LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS WITH THE GOD-LIKE
- [00:35:23.867]DECISIONS THAT WE WOULD HOPE TO HAVE.
- [00:35:25.467]>> I GUESS I WOULD HAVE TO ADD THAT AT SOME POINT IN TIME,
- [00:35:28.967]SOMEONE HAS TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS.
- [00:35:38.300]WE SAY IS THAT DECISION GOING TO BE MADE BY ME OR PROFESSOR
- [00:35:43.734]RADELET OR IS IT GOING TO BE MADE BY THE COURT SYSTEM?
- [00:35:46.200]WHO ARE WE GOING TO TRUST TO MAKE THAT DECISION.
- [00:35:48.333]I CAN HAVE OPINIONS OF PEOPLE WHO I THINK MIGHT BE GUILTY OR
- [00:35:51.166]PEOPLE I THINK MIGHT BE INNOCENT.
- [00:35:53.266]I CAN'T SUBSTITUTE MY JUDGMENT FOR THE JUDGMENT OF THE COURT
- [00:35:56.033]SYSTEM OF THIS COUNTRY.
- [00:36:00.767]IT'S THE COURTS THAT ARE EXONERATING THESE PEOPLE.
- [00:36:03.600]THEY'RE CONVICTED ON EVIDENCE AND THEY'RE EXONERATED
- [00:36:09.066]BASED ON EVIDENCE.
- [00:36:13.100]SO A SYSTEM ABLE TO CORRECT ITSELF DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE
- [00:36:16.200]SYSTEM THAT'S FAILING.
- [00:36:19.467]>> WHO DO WE TRUST IN MAKING THESE DECISIONS -- NO ONE.
- [00:36:23.133]NO ONE HAS A GOD-LIKE WISDOM TO DECIDE WHO'S GUILTY OR INNOCENT.
- [00:36:28.633]OR AMONG THE GUILTY, WHO'S THE MOST DESERVING.
- [00:36:31.734]THOSE ARE TECHNICAL HIGH HARD THINGS TO JUDGE AND REASONABLE
- [00:36:34.767]PEOPLE DIFFER AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF THAT HUMAN ERROR
- [00:36:37.667]IS TO GET RID OF THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:36:40.266]>> WELL, PROFESSOR RADELET, SPEAKING OF GOD, HOW DO WE
- [00:36:45.533]RECONCILE THESE THREE FACTS -- FIRST, AMERICA IS BY SOME
- [00:36:49.266]MEASURE THE MOST RELIGIOUS NATION ON EARTH, AND CERTAINLY
- [00:36:53.000]IN THE WESTERN WORLD IF YOU MEASURE BY CHURCH ATTENDANCE AND
- [00:36:57.834]STATED BELIEF IN GOD, AND SECOND, YOU KNOW ORGANIZATIONS
- [00:37:01.834]THAT REPRESENT AMERICAN CATHOLICS OPPOSE THE DEATH
- [00:37:05.100]PENALTY AND ARE IN FAVOR OF THE ABOLITION.
- [00:37:07.867]YET, THIRD, THE MAJORITY OF THE STATE LEGISLATORS PRESUMABLY
- [00:37:13.600]REPRESENTING THE SAME PEOPLE HAVE ADOPTED THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:37:15.834]HOW DO WE RECONCILE THOSE THREE THINGS.
- [00:37:18.367]>> QUITE EASILY.
- [00:37:19.700]THE MAJORITY OF LEGISLATURES AROUND THE COUNTRY DID SO AT A
- [00:37:23.767]TIME WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE ALTERNATIVES TO THE DEATH
- [00:37:26.400]PENALTY LIKE WE HAVE TODAY.
- [00:37:27.633]IN NEBRASKA, WHEN YOU ALL ADOPTED THE DEATH PENALTY BACK
- [00:37:30.533]IN 1973, THE ALTERNATIVE INSTEAD OF BEING SENTENCED TO DEATH WAS
- [00:37:38.266]10 OR 15 YEARS IN PRISON.
- [00:37:39.633]THAT SPEAKS TO THE DETERRENT EFFECT.
- [00:37:41.333]BUT IT SPEAKS TO THE ISSUE OF THE MORALITY OF THE DEATH
- [00:37:43.934]PENALTY AND WHAT ALTERNATIVES WE HAVE THAT CAN
- [00:37:47.000]REACH THE SAME GOALS.
- [00:37:47.300]NOW WE HAVE LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:37:48.700]THE BALL GAME HAS CHANGED.
- [00:37:49.967]NOW WE KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THE LACK OF DETERRENT EFFECT OF THE
- [00:37:54.200]DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:37:56.233]EARLIER THIS YEAR, THIS HAS BEEN DEBATED BACK AND FORTH BY
- [00:37:59.333]ACADEMICS AS MANY OF YOU KNOW, IS THE DEATH PENALTY DETERRENT,
- [00:38:03.266]IS IT NOT, BLAH, BLAH -- I SAY IT IS, YOU SAY IT'S NOT.
- [00:38:06.400]SO THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES GETS INVOLVED.
- [00:38:09.600]THIS IS THE TOP GROUP OF SCHOLARS IN THE UNITED STATES.
- [00:38:11.667]IT'S THE BEST WE'VE GOT.
- [00:38:13.166]THEY APPOINT A PANEL AND THE PANEL LOOKED INTO THE RESEARCH
- [00:38:16.200]THAT LOOKED INTO THE DETERRENT EFFECT OF THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:38:19.667]THEY WROTE A BOOK.
- [00:38:21.000]IT'S JUST OUT.
- [00:38:21.834]THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA LAW LIBRARY.
- [00:38:24.066]MAYBE WE CAN GET IN THERE AFTER TONIGHT'S DEBATE AND
- [00:38:27.000]TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
- [00:38:27.266]THEY CONCLUDED THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL THAT THE DEATH
- [00:38:31.433]PENALTY IS A BETTER DETERRENT THAN LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:38:34.834]SO THE LEGISLATORS THAT DID ENACT DEATH PENALTY STATUTES DID
- [00:38:39.333]IT AT A SOMETIME WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE THE ALTERNATIVES
- [00:38:42.633]WE HAVE TODAY.
- [00:38:42.967]WE WERE DOING IT UNDER THE BELIEF THAT IT WOULD MAKE THEM
- [00:38:45.367]LOOK TOUGH ON CRIME AND WOULD REDUCE HOMICIDE RATES.
- [00:38:48.200]WE KNOW THAT PREMISE IS FALSE.
- [00:38:49.467]SO THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE REVISITING IT.
- [00:38:53.400]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:38:53.900]MR. BROWN, WOULD YOU LIKE TO REP RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION?
- [00:38:57.700]>> WELL, I THINK IT REFLECTS A GENERIC SENSE OF WHAT'S
- [00:39:02.633]APPROPRIATE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, WITHIN THE STATES
- [00:39:05.767]THAT HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:39:06.734]THIS IS A REP ACTION TO THEIR SENSE, THEIR VALUES AS TO WHAT
- [00:39:12.333]IS AN APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR THE WORST OF CRIMES.
- [00:39:15.333]I AM LOOKING AT THIS AND I'M CERTAINLY NO BIBLICAL SCHOLAR.
- [00:39:20.266]AND I WANT IS BEEN POINTED OUT OFTEN THAT THE U.S. CONFERENCE
- [00:39:24.166]OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS OPPOSES THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:39:27.700]WHAT'S INTERESTING IS ACCORDING TO WHAT I READ FROM THE PEW
- [00:39:32.400]FORUM ON RELIGION AND POLITICS, THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC
- [00:39:37.100]CHURCH SANCTIONS THE USE OF DEATH PENALTY
- [00:39:40.233]UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
- [00:39:40.700]YOU HAVE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE CONFLICTS EVEN AMONG THEMSELVES.
- [00:39:48.533]ANOTHER STUDY SAID THAT IN 1991, 41% OF THOSE OPPOSING THE DEATH
- [00:39:54.867]PENALTY SAID IT WAS IMMORAL.
- [00:39:59.367]TODAY ONLY 27% OF THOSE OPPOSED TO THE DEATH PENALTY SAY
- [00:40:03.133]IMMORALITY IS THE REASON FOR OPPOSING IT.
- [00:40:05.567]I THINK RELIGION GIVES US A SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG.
- [00:40:11.567]BUT AMERICANS TEND TO MAKE LAW ENFORCEMENT CRIMINAL JUSTICE
- [00:40:15.000]DECISIONS IN A VERY PRAGMATIC WAY GUIDED BY THEIR RELIGIOUS OR
- [00:40:20.667]MORAL BELIEFS AND THOSE ARE EXPRESSED IN A DEMOCRACY THROUGH
- [00:40:24.467]THE ACTIONS OF OUR LEGISLATURE.
- [00:40:33.867]>> OKAY, WE CAN FUSS ABOUT THE BIBLE UNTIL -- I GUESS UNTIL
- [00:40:38.433]WE'RE ALL GOING INTO THE GATES OF HEAVEN.
- [00:40:42.066]TO DETERMINE ITS TRUE MEANING, ITS REAL MEANING.
- [00:40:46.033]LOOK, WHY DON'T WE LOOK TO THE PEOPLE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO
- [00:40:48.967]INTERPRET MORALITY TO BE THE MORAL LEADERS OF OUR STATE.
- [00:40:51.734]AND IN NEBRASKA, THOSE MORAL LEADERS ARE THE LEADERS OF OUR
- [00:40:56.000]RELIGIONS, THE MAJOR RELIGIONS, THE CATHOLIC BISHOPS OF NEBRASKA
- [00:41:00.166]AND THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH OF AMERICA.
- [00:41:05.734]PRESBYTERIAN USA ARE AMONG THE LARGEST IN NEBRASKA THAT
- [00:41:09.600]UNIFORMLY OPPOSE EXECUTION.
- [00:41:11.500]I HAVE IN MY HAND A STATEMENT READ MARCH 4, 2011 BY THE
- [00:41:15.867]NEBRASKA CATHOLIC CONFERENCE TO THE SENATE HERE IN NEBRASKA
- [00:41:19.266]SAYING THAT ALTHOUGH CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES ALLOW FOR THE
- [00:41:23.500]POSSIBILITY OF EXECUTIONS WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE,
- [00:41:27.734]THEY SAY OUR OPPOSITION TO THE DEATH PENALTY IS ABSOLUTE.
- [00:41:31.900]PRACTICAL REALITY.
- [00:41:32.967]NOW, THAT MESSAGE HAS NOT GOTTEN DOWN TO THE PEWS YET.
- [00:41:36.834]IT'S GETTING THERE.
- [00:41:37.767]IF YOU LOOK AT THE PUBLIC OPINION POLLS, ESPECIALLY AMONG
- [00:41:41.600]CATHOLICS BUT ALSO TRUE AMONG OTHER RELIGIONS AS WELL, MORE
- [00:41:44.200]AND MORE TODAY STAND OPPOSED THAN WAS TRUE
- [00:41:47.667]10 OR 15 YEARS AGO.
- [00:41:48.033]SO PUBLIC OPINION ON THIS IS CHANGING.
- [00:41:50.734]NEBRASKANS FIND OUT THEY DO HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE OF LIFE
- [00:41:54.100]WITHOUT PAROLE, HOW EXPENSIVE IS THAT PENALTY?
- [00:41:57.200]AND THE WISDOM AND LEADERSHIP OF THESE CATHOLIC MORAL AND
- [00:42:02.633]CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN MORAL LEADERS IN THE STATE, YOU SHOULD
- [00:42:05.033]ASK THEM, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?
- [00:42:07.266]WHAT DO YOU WOMEN THINK?
- [00:42:08.700]ASK THE NUNS.
- [00:42:13.200]I NEVER MET A NUN WHO SUPPORTED THE DEATH PENALTY EXCEPT THE ONE
- [00:42:17.367]WHEN I WAS IN EIGHTH GRADE WHO WANTED TO KILL ME.
- [00:42:19.600]THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.
- [00:42:21.400]THAT'S FIRM ACROSS THE BOARD ON THEIR STATEMENTS OF THE MORALITY
- [00:42:24.066]OF THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:42:25.567]>> THANK YOU.
- [00:42:26.200]>> MR. BROWN.
- [00:42:27.467]>> TO MY KNOWLEDGE, EVERY STUDY ABOUT THE CALL FOR THE DEATH
- [00:42:30.967]PENALTY HAS FOUND IT COST SIGNIFICANTLY MORE FOR THE
- [00:42:34.600]PRISONER THAN LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:42:36.800]ONE RECENT STUDY IN UTAH FOUND IMPLEMENTING THE DEATH PENALTY
- [00:42:41.367]COST THE STATE $1.6 MILLION MORE THAN LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [00:42:45.934]A STUDY REPORTED THAT THE STATE WAS SPENDING $137 MILLION PER
- [00:42:49.867]YEAR ON THE DEATH PENALTY, INCLUDING THE CASES WHERE IT WAS
- [00:42:53.467]ULTIMATELY NOT IMPOSED.
- [00:42:55.533]ESTIMATED A COMPARABLE SYSTEM THAT SENTENCED THE SAME INMATE
- [00:42:57.867]WANTS TO LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE COST ONLY
- [00:43:01.700]$11.5 MILLION PER YEAR.
- [00:43:02.100]IN CALIFORNIA, THE COST OF CONFINING ONE INMATE TO DEATH
- [00:43:06.133]ROW IS $90,000 PER YEAR MORE THAN THE COST OF INCARCERATING
- [00:43:10.967]THE SAME INMATE IN THE MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON BECAUSE OF THE
- [00:43:15.266]EXTRA SECURITY AND THE INDIVIDUAL SERVICES THAT
- [00:43:18.000]SOLITARY CONFINEMENT REQUIRES.
- [00:43:19.567]IN 2010, HE WAS UNABLE TO PASS A BILL ASSOCIATED WITH THE
- [00:43:26.100]IN NEBRASKA THAT DON'T HAVE FIGURES IN NEBRASKA.
- [00:43:28.667]CAN WE JUSTIFY SATISFYING THE MORAL OUTRAGE OF THE COMMUNITY
- [00:43:32.633]AT SUCH A COST TYPICALLY WHEN THOSE CRIMES CAN BE USED IN
- [00:43:36.066]OTHER CRIME PREVENTION AND IN THE STATE OF NEBRASKA THE STATE
- [00:43:39.233]HAS NOT FIGURED OUT HOW HIGH THE COSTS ARE.
- [00:43:42.867]OR DOES THAT BUY US SOMETHING OF SATISFACTION AND MORAL OUTRAGE.
- [00:43:49.467]>> IF THE DEATH PENALTY IS JUST, THEN WE AS A SOCIETY OUGHT TO BE
- [00:43:54.333]ABLE TO AFFORD TO DO JUSTICE.
- [00:43:58.600]I WOULD NOT LIKE TO HAVE A DECISION WITH THE GRAVITY OF THE
- [00:44:04.700]DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:44:06.900]AND I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN IT AND PEOPLE WHO DO
- [00:44:10.900]NOT BELIEVE IN IT DO NOT DISPUTE THIS IS A SERIOUS
- [00:44:14.900]AND WEIGHTY DECISION.
- [00:44:15.266]I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT SORT OF A DECISION SHOULD BE
- [00:44:18.900]MADE ON A LEDGER SHEET.
- [00:44:21.467]IF I COULD EXECUTE PEOPLE A LOT CHEAPER THAN I DO NOW, I DON'T
- [00:44:25.767]THINK PEOPLE OPPOSED TO THE DEATH PENALTY WOULD SAY, WELL,
- [00:44:28.433]IF YOU CAN DO IT FOR $375, THAT WILL BE FINE WITH ME.
- [00:44:34.133]THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.
- [00:44:35.300]OR LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.
- [00:44:36.867]THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ISSUE.
- [00:44:39.533]CAN WE AFFORD TO DO JUSTICE?
- [00:44:42.533]IF WE CAN'T, THEN WE'VE GOT MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN WHAT DO WE
- [00:44:46.667]HAVE OR DO NOT HAVE A DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:44:49.433]THAT'S MY ONLY RESPONSE.
- [00:44:50.900]IF THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR THESE CRIMES,
- [00:44:53.834]THEN AS A SOCIETY, WE SHOULD -- WE SHOULD PONY UP THE
- [00:44:57.967]EXPENSE OF DOING THAT.
- [00:44:59.266]I DON'T DENY THAT CERTAINLY CAPITAL LITIGATION IS SOME OF
- [00:45:02.567]THE MOST EXPENSIVE LITIGATION THE STATE ENGAGES IN.
- [00:45:06.266]THE STAKES ARE VERY HIGH.
- [00:45:07.467]AND THERE, AGAIN, AS I SAID, IT IS VERY HIGH BECAUSE WE ARE
- [00:45:12.967]WORKING SO HARD TO MAKE SURE WE ARE DOING IT RIGHT.
- [00:45:16.200]I FIND IT IRONIC THAT OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, PEOPLE OPPOSED TO
- [00:45:21.300]THE DEATH PENALTY HAVE ARGUED TO THE COURTS AND VERY SUCCESSFULLY
- [00:45:25.200]AT TIMES OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO DO MORE.
- [00:45:28.967]YOU HAVE TO BE MORE CAREFUL.
- [00:45:30.900]YOU HAVE TO AFFORD MORE PROCESS.
- [00:45:35.433]AND HAVING ACCEPTED THAT AND HAVING PROVIDED THAT PROCESS,
- [00:45:39.934]THE SYSTEM IS NOW CHASTISED BECAUSE IT'S BECOME
- [00:45:44.834]TOO EXPENSIVE TO DO.
- [00:45:46.266]YOU'RE EITHER GOING TO DO JUSTICE AND PROVIDE THE
- [00:45:49.433]SAFEGUARDS OR WE DON'T NEED TO PROVIDE THE SAFEGUARDS AND DO
- [00:45:53.767]JUSTICE MORE CHEAPLY.
- [00:45:54.867]BUT I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE A DOLLARS AND CENTS WE CAN TURN
- [00:45:58.600]THE BIGGER PROFIT SOME OTHER WAY.
- [00:46:00.333]I DON'T THINK A QUESTION THIS IMPORTANT SHOULD TURN ON WHO OR
- [00:46:04.266]WHAT WE MAKE THE MOST MONEY ON.
- [00:46:06.133]I THINK THE OTHER ISSUE -- I DON'T KNOW THESE STUDIES, BUT I
- [00:46:09.100]KNOW FROM MY TIME AS A TIME IN CORRECTIONS.
- [00:46:14.767]IF YOU TAKE A PER YEAR COST OF A PRISONER, WHETHER IT'S 90,000.
- [00:46:21.200]WHATEVER THE NUMBER MAY BE, THAT'S FINE.
- [00:46:23.066]IF YOU KEEP A PRISONER FOR THE REST OF THEIR NATURAL LIFE, YOU
- [00:46:26.900]BACK LOAD HUGE COSTS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOW GOING TO PROVIDE THE
- [00:46:31.533]GERIATRIC CARE OF THAT PRISONER AND THE COST OF THAT AS WE ALL
- [00:46:34.266]KNOW IS ASTRONOMICAL.
- [00:46:36.033]THAT ISN'T AN ARGUMENT TO DO ONE THING OR ANOTHER TOO.
- [00:46:39.033]BUT IT IS A REALITY THAT THERE ARE COSTS THAT THE STATE OF
- [00:46:43.934]NEBRASKA PAID FOR OPEN HEART SURGERY FOR A
- [00:46:49.734]PRISONER ON DEATH ROW.
- [00:46:50.300]THATS PART OF OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A CUSTODIAN
- [00:46:55.533]OF THESE PEOPLE.
- [00:46:56.300]THERE ARE COSTS AT BOTH ENDS.
- [00:46:58.233]BUT I DON'T THINK COST IS THE REASON -- UNLESS WE WANT TO SAY
- [00:47:00.867]WE CAN'T AFFORD TO DO JUSTICE, I JUST DON'T SEE THE DECISION
- [00:47:05.367]WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE GOING TO TAKE LIFE FOR CRIME SHOULD TURN
- [00:47:09.767]ON THAT ISSUE.
- [00:47:10.867]>> PROFESSOR RADELET?
- [00:47:13.000]>> THE STUDY AND THE DEATH PENALTY FLOATING AROUND FOR THE
- [00:47:16.567]LAST DECADE OR SO DONE BY ACADEMICS, DONE BY JOURNALISTS,
- [00:47:20.734]BY STATE SUPREME COURTS.
- [00:47:23.834]DONE BY LEGISLATURES.
- [00:47:24.900]EVERY ONE OF THE STUDIES FOUND THAT THE DEATH PENALTY FOUND
- [00:47:28.900]MILLIONS MORE THAN LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE AND CALCULATING THE COST
- [00:47:32.400]OF TREATING ALL PRISONERS.
- [00:47:34.667]IT'S INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE.
- [00:47:36.900]NOBODY IS GOING TO PLEAD GUILTY OF THE PENALTY CASE.
- [00:47:40.033]THE TRIAL COSTS ARE EXPENSIVE.
- [00:47:41.800]THE JURIES OFTENTIMES HAVE TO BE SEQUESTERED.
- [00:47:45.066]THERE'S TWO PARTS OF THE TRIAL.
- [00:47:47.934]THEY'RE GOING TO FALL AS EXPERTS.
- [00:47:51.066]WHAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, THE DEATH PENALTY CASE IN
- [00:47:54.900]COLORADO INVOLVING A MAN WHO SHOT UP THE THEATER IN AURORA.
- [00:47:57.900]IF THEY GO FOR DEATH IN THAT CASE, THE MENTAL HEALTH
- [00:48:01.834]PROFESSIONALS ARE GOING TO MAKE ZILLIONS, GOT ZILLIONS,
- [00:48:04.767]BUT A LOT OF MONEY.
- [00:48:05.667]AND OTHERS FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW
- [00:48:09.033]CRAZY THE GUY IS.
- [00:48:10.333]YET, THE STATE OF NEBRASKA REFUSES TO DO A STUDY ON HOW
- [00:48:14.266]MUCH IT COSTS.
- [00:48:15.200]I MEAN, IT'S REALLY BIZARRE.
- [00:48:20.467]BEFORE THE BUILDING WAS BUILT, THEY KNEW PRETTY CLOSE EXACTLY
- [00:48:23.900]HOW MUCH THE BUILDING WOULD COST.
- [00:48:25.367]BEFORE THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA HIRES A NEW LAW
- [00:48:28.567]PROFESSOR, THEY KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH THAT'S GOING TO COST BEFORE
- [00:48:30.967]THEY BUILD A HIGHWAY.
- [00:48:32.133]THE NEW HIGHWAY.
- [00:48:32.967]THEY GET THE COST.
- [00:48:33.967]THEY KNOW THE COST OF EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:48:37.500]YOU GET IT CARTE BLANCHE.
- [00:48:38.600]AND IF THE STATE HAS TO TAKE THAT MONEY FROM SOME PLACE OUT
- [00:48:41.233]OF THE GENERAL REVENUES, IT'S EASY TO FIND THE MONEY BY, YOU
- [00:48:45.200]KNOW, TAKING IT AWAY FROM OTHER PROGRAMS WHERE WE NEED -- WHERE
- [00:48:49.266]WE NEED MONEY MORE.
- [00:48:51.433]ONE OF THOSE PROGRAMS MIGHT BE HELPING FAMILIES
- [00:48:55.500]OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS.
- [00:48:55.867]THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.
- [00:48:56.967]THAT'S WHAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS SUPPOSED TO DO.
- [00:48:58.967]LOOK AT THIS -- WELL, YOU CAN'T LOOK AT IT.
- [00:49:01.400]I'LL LOOK AT IT.
- [00:49:02.367]I'LL READ IT TO YOU.
- [00:49:05.500]LET'S TALK ABOUT HELPING FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS AND
- [00:49:08.633]THE MILLIONS WE SPEND ON ONE CASE TO KILL A GUY WHO OTHERWISE
- [00:49:12.500]IS GOING TO SPEND THE WHOLE LIFE IN PRISON.
- [00:49:16.000]THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR HOMICIDE BACK IN 1960, 92% OF
- [00:49:21.000]HOMICIDE WERE SOLVED.
- [00:49:21.900]9 OUT OF 10.
- [00:49:25.266]THEN IN 1976, THAT DROPPED TO 79%.
- [00:49:29.400]IN 2005, 62% OF HOMICIDE IN THE UNITED STATES WERE SOLVED.
- [00:49:34.633]4 OUT OF 10 PEOPLE WHO KILLED IN NEBRASKA AND ELSEWHERE IN THE
- [00:49:39.133]UNITED STATES ARE NEVER APPREHENDED.
- [00:49:41.333]WE'VE GOT A GROUP IN COLORADO, STUDENTS OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS
- [00:49:45.266]HAVE DOCUMENTED 1500 UNSOLVED HOMICIDE.
- [00:49:48.233]WE HAVE A GROUP OF THEIR FAMILIES, ABOUT 1,000 TOGETHER
- [00:49:51.967]AND THEY WENT TO THE STATE LEGISLATURE IN 2009 AND SAID,
- [00:49:56.233]LOOK, THE DEATH PENALTY IS IRRELEVANT TO US, IRRELEVANT TO
- [00:50:00.567]40% OF THE VICTIMS BECAUSE WE NEVER CAUGHT THE GUY.
- [00:50:04.100]WE NEED COLD CASE SQUADS TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON.
- [00:50:06.400]IF YOU ASK THE FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS, AT LARGE, THE
- [00:50:09.734]WHOLE GROUP, NOT JUST THE ONE CASE WHERE THE GUY IS ON DEATH
- [00:50:12.533]ROW, THEY'RE UP GOING TO SAY, I WANT TO FIND OUT WHO KILLED
- [00:50:15.467]MY LOVED ONE.
- [00:50:16.166]LET'S SPEND SOME MONEY THERE.
- [00:50:17.467]LET'S HIRE SOME MORE COPS WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
- [00:50:22.000]>> I JUST HAVE TO ADD THE IMPLICATION THAT UNLESS WE SHIFT
- [00:50:27.567]MONEY FROM THE DEATH PENALTY, NO ONE IS LOOKING FOR MURDERERS IN
- [00:50:32.233]THIS COUNTRY IS A LITTLE OFFENSIVE.
- [00:50:34.834]LAW ENFORCEMENT IS OUT THERE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE.
- [00:50:36.133]THEY NEED EVIDENCE.
- [00:50:36.900]AND IF THEY CAN'T FIND EVIDENCE, THEY CAN'T PURSUE THEM.
- [00:50:41.600]BUT TO SAY THAT WE WILL CATCH MORE MURDERERS TO SHIFT MONEY TO
- [00:50:46.900]LAW ENFORCEMENT I THINK ASSAULTS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THE LEVEL OF
- [00:50:51.166]EFFORTS I THINK LAW ENFORCEMENT AROUND THE COUNTRY
- [00:50:54.900]IS ENGAGING IN TRYING TO BRING THE PEOPLE TO JUSTICE.
- [00:50:57.967]>> THE COPS ARE SAYING I CAN'T INVESTIGATE A CASE FIVE YEARS
- [00:51:01.867]AGO FROM OMAHA.
- [00:51:02.867]I HAVE A HOMICIDE LAST WEEK.
- [00:51:04.233]I DON'T HAVE THE SPECIAL TRAINING WE NEED TO
- [00:51:06.700]INVESTIGATE THE COLD CASES.
- [00:51:07.300]THE ANSWER IS TO HAVE A STATEWIDE COLD CASE SQUAD TO
- [00:51:10.633]TRAIN IN SPECIAL METHODS TO INVESTIGATE THESE CASES.
- [00:51:13.567]WE KNOW IN COLORADO WE'VE SEEN CASE AFTER CASE AFTER CASE WHERE
- [00:51:17.433]PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING ACTUALLY DO EVERY ONCE IN
- [00:51:20.734]A WHILE SOLVE THESE CASES.
- [00:51:22.166]THEY'RE VERY DIFFICULT.
- [00:51:22.900]BUT THAT'S WHAT THE FAMILIES WANT.
- [00:51:24.767]THAT'S HOW WE SHOULD BE SPENDING OUR MONEY.
- [00:51:27.266]>> I WOULD JUST ADD ONE OTHER THOUGHT.
- [00:51:30.233]AS MUCH AS WE EMPATHIZE WITH THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS AND WE
- [00:51:34.400]DO AND WE SHOULD, WE AREN'T DOING THIS WHETHER IT'S LIFE
- [00:51:40.700]IMPRISONMENT OR THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:51:42.633]WE AREN'T PURSUING THIS SOLELY FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIM
- [00:51:47.934]-- VICTIMS.
- [00:51:50.834]WE ARE NOT THEIR HENCHMEN.
- [00:51:52.133]WE ARE DOING IT ON BEHALF OF ALL OF THE CITIZENS OF THE STATE.
- [00:51:55.100]AND THAT IS THE COMMUNITY THAT NEEDS TO FEEL THAT
- [00:51:58.600]WE'RE DOING JUSTICE.
- [00:52:05.467]>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
- [00:52:07.467]SOME ARGUED THAT THE DEATH PENALTY BRINGS CLOSURE FOR THE
- [00:52:11.734]FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS.
- [00:52:13.333]THE SUPREME COURT FOUND THAT IT'S NOT UNNECESSARILY UNDULY
- [00:52:17.900]PRESIDENTIAL TO HAVE THE IMPACT STATEMENTS TO HAVE THE IMPACT
- [00:52:22.166]STATEMENTS TO BE PRESENTED ON THE SENTENCING PHASE
- [00:52:28.233]OF CAPITAL CASES.
- [00:52:28.567]WHERE DO THE FRIENDS AND FAMILY OF VICTIMS FIT INTO OUR
- [00:52:32.500]ARGUMENTS AND SHOULD THEIR EXPERIENCE BE PART OF THE
- [00:52:35.100]CALCULATION TO GO INTO CRIMINAL SANCTIONS?
- [00:52:46.734]CLOSURE IS A TERM WE USE TO CLOSE ON A HOUSE.
- [00:52:52.834]YOU MIGHT WALK AWAY AFTER THE GUY IS EXECUTED, YOU MIGHT SAY,
- [00:52:55.867]YEAH, I FEEL GOOD.
- [00:52:56.767]BUT A WEEK LATER, A MONTH LATER, A FEW YEARS LATER, YOUR LOVED
- [00:53:00.867]ONE IS STILL DEAD.
- [00:53:02.667]THERE'S NEVER CLOSURE.
- [00:53:03.500]DEATH PENALTY OR NOT, ONCE THERE'S A HOMICIDE IN YOUR
- [00:53:05.900]FAMILY, THERE'S A HOLE IN YOUR FAMILY THAT
- [00:53:10.333]NEVER COMPLETELY HEALS.
- [00:53:10.700]SO, WHAT THE DEATH PENALTY DOES DO, HOWEVER, IS PUT THE VICTIM
- [00:53:15.967]IN A STATE -- THE VICTIM'S FAMILY IN
- [00:53:21.233]A STATE OF UNCERTAINTY.
- [00:53:23.200]FIRST OF ALL, WE TAKE 1% OF THE HOMICIDE AND SAY WE'RE GOING TO
- [00:53:26.233]SEEK DEATH IN THIS CASE.
- [00:53:27.266]THAT LEAVES PROSECUTORS TO SAY TO OTHER VICTIMS,
- [00:53:31.934]YOUR CASE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH, SORRY.
- [00:53:33.867]THE MURDER OF YOUR LOVED ONE ISN'T WORTH GOING FOR DEATH.
- [00:53:38.333]WE'RE GOING TO PLEA BARGAIN THAT ONE OUT.
- [00:53:41.000]PEOPLE FEEL CHEATED THERE.
- [00:53:42.166]IN DEATH PENALTY CASES, MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN.
- [00:53:46.700]THEY SEEK DEATH IN A LOT OF CASES WHERE DEATH IS NEVER
- [00:53:53.367]-- NEVER IMPOSED.
- [00:53:54.767]DEATH IS IMPOSED SINCE 1976, AMONG ALL THOSE SENTENCED TO
- [00:53:59.600]DEATH, ONLY 15% HAVE BEEN EXECUTED.
- [00:54:02.066]PEOPLE GET CONVICTIONS THROWN OUT, THEY COME BACK FOR RETRIAL.
- [00:54:05.100]THE WOUNDS STAY OPEN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
- [00:54:07.834]I WANT TO QUOTE -- I COULD GO ON AND ON, BUT I WANT TO QUOTE --
- [00:54:10.900]>> YOU HAVE A MINUTE AND A HALF.
- [00:54:13.700]>> OKAY, WELL, WE -- WE -- LOOK IT, A MONTH AGO, WE SAW THE
- [00:54:23.066]END -- END OF ONE OF THE MOST HORRIFIC MURDERS IN RECENT YEARS
- [00:54:29.567]IN THE UNITED STATES WHEN JARED LOCKER IN KILLED SIX PEOPLE AND
- [00:54:33.333]WOUNDED 12, INCLUDING TUCSON.
- [00:54:36.834]THIS IS A GABBY GIFFORD CASE.
- [00:54:40.367]PRETTY NASTY STUFF.
- [00:54:43.166]HE WAS SENTENCED TO A ZILLION CONSECUTIVE LIFE
- [00:54:48.934]WITHOUT PAROLE SENTENCES.
- [00:54:49.433]HE WAS SENTENCED WITHOUT ANY OUTCRY BY THE COMMUNITY OR ANY
- [00:54:52.500]OUTCRY BY THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS.
- [00:54:57.333]AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE COMMUNITY AND THE VICTIMS
- [00:55:00.967]WELCOMED IT.
- [00:55:01.734]THEY'RE DONE WITH IT.
- [00:55:02.800]MARK KELLY, THE ASTRONAUT, THE HUSBAND OF THE WOUNDED VICTIM,
- [00:55:10.867]GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, THE CONGRESSMAN FROM THE AREA, HE
- [00:55:15.700]SAID SOMETHING THAT MAKES ME THINK THE DEATH PENALTY IS MORE
- [00:55:19.066]ABOUT US THAN HIM.
- [00:55:20.233]THE DEATH PENALTY IS WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DO WE WANT TO BE.
- [00:55:23.266]MARK KELLEY ADDRESSED THE JUDGE, ADDRESSED LOUGHNER.
- [00:55:26.834]HE SAID TO LOUGHNER, QUOTE, YOU HAVE DECADES UPON DECADES TO
- [00:55:31.467]CONTEMPLATE WHAT YOU DID.
- [00:55:33.000]BUT AFTER TODAY, AFTER THIS MOMENT, HERE AND NOW, GABBY AND
- [00:55:37.900]I ARE DONE THINKING ABOUT YOU.
- [00:55:41.934]AND HE TURNED AROUND, WALKED OUT OF THE COURTROOM, LOUGHNER WAS
- [00:55:47.467]SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON.
- [00:55:49.333]CASE IS OVER.
- [00:55:50.834]>> BEFORE MR. BROWN RESPONDS TO THE QUESTION ABOUT VICTIMS'
- [00:55:53.800]FAMILIES, I WILL LET YOU KNOW THAT AT THIS POINT, THE USHERS
- [00:55:58.700]WILL COLLECT YOUR QUESTIONS.
- [00:55:59.500]SO IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION FOR OUR DEBATERS, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
- [00:56:04.166]HAND AND AN USHER WILL GIVE YOU A PIECE OF PAPER AND PENCIL AND
- [00:56:08.400]WE'LL GET THOSE UP HERE.
- [00:56:10.166]MR. BROWN, PLEASE RESPOND TO THE VICTIMS, THE FAMILIES?
- [00:56:12.867]>> I THINK I TOUCHED ON THAT BRIEFLY BEFORE.
- [00:56:15.000]BUT THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES SUFFER AND THEY SUFFER DIFFERENTLY.
- [00:56:18.300]AND IN NEBRASKA, WE HAVE HAD CASES WHERE ONE MEMBER OF A
- [00:56:23.834]FAMILY WANTED TO PURSUE THE APPELLATE PROCESS
- [00:56:27.734]IN A CAPITAL CASE.
- [00:56:28.033]OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY VERY SERIOUSLY DID NOT.
- [00:56:34.300]THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY TO THEM OTHER THAN THE GREAT EFFORTS
- [00:56:37.934]THAT THE PROSECUTORS OFFICES IN THIS STATE DO TO COORDINATE WITH
- [00:56:42.033]AND INFORM VICTIMS AND FAMILIES IS TO SAY IN THE END, IT CAN
- [00:56:47.000]NEVER BE THE FAMILY'S DECISION WHAT THE LAW SHOULD BE AND WHAT
- [00:56:52.734]ROUTE SHOULD BE PURSUED.
- [00:56:56.867]WE DON'T DO THIS -- WE DON'T SEEK VENGEANCE FOR FAMILIES
- [00:57:01.033]ANYMORE THAN WE SEEK CLOSURE FOR FAMILIES.
- [00:57:03.900]THE JUDGE WE ARE TASKED WITH IS ATTEMPTING TO DO JUSTICE.
- [00:57:10.000]AS SERIOUSLY AND AS CAREFULLY AS WE CAN AND HOPEFULLY SOME
- [00:57:21.133]JUSTICE WILL COME TO THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS BUT THE
- [00:57:26.033]OFFENSE ISN'T AGAINST THE FAMILY.
- [00:57:28.033]IF WE'VE BECOME CALLUS AND SAY THAT HAPPENED TO THEM, I DON'T
- [00:57:30.867]CARE, WE'RE IN A LOT OF TROUBLE WHETHER WE HAVE THE
- [00:57:33.467]DEATH PENALTY OR NOT.
- [00:57:34.266]WE SHOULD ALL BE OFFENDED BY WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT FAMILY.
- [00:57:39.900]AND THAT'S WHAT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS INTENDED TO DO
- [00:57:44.433]WHICH IS TO SEEK A SENSE OF JUSTICE FOR ALL OF US.
- [00:57:46.834]NOT JUST FOR THE FAMILY.
- [00:57:48.533]>> YOU KNOW, JUSTICE?
- [00:57:50.300]WHAT IS JUSTICE?
- [00:57:51.367]JUSTICE DEMANDS THAT WE DO THIS.
- [00:57:54.934]THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE'RE SUBSERVIENT TO JUSTICE, THEY
- [00:57:58.633]TILL US WHAT TO DO.
- [00:58:00.533]WE DEFINE JUSTICE.
- [00:58:01.867]WE TELL JUSTICE WHAT WE WANT.
- [00:58:03.700]WE SAY WHAT IS JUST AND WHAT IS NOT JUST.
- [00:58:06.233]IT'S HISTORICALLY RELATIVE, CULTURALLY IRRELEVANT.
- [00:58:10.767]IT'S SOMETHING THAT COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE ABANDONING
- [00:58:13.633]THE DEATH PENALTY TO.
- [00:58:14.467]SAY WE HAVE TO PURSUE JUSTICE OR JUSTICE DEMANDS THAT WE DO THIS
- [00:58:19.000]TAKES ON OUR ROLE AS HUMAN ACTORS AND TAKES OUT THE AGENCY
- [00:58:22.400]IN DEFINING WHAT KIND OF A WORLD WE WANT TO LIVE IN.
- [00:58:27.166]WE WASTE ALL OF THIS MONEY IN ONE CASE, ONE GUY WHO'S
- [00:58:30.166]OTHERWISE GOING TO DIE IN PRISON AND THE FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE
- [00:58:33.433]VICTIMS ARE HAVING BAKE SALES SO THEY CAN ORGANIZE TO LOBBY FOR
- [00:58:36.934]COLD CASE SQUADS.
- [00:58:37.834]WE HAVE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE KIND OF GOING TO HELP KIDS
- [00:58:42.767]GET STRAIGHT, LIVE A GOOD LIFE, AND AVOID THE CRIMINAL VIOLENCE.
- [00:58:47.367]LIKE TOM AND NANCY OSBORN'S PROGRAM HERE IN NEBRASKA.
- [00:58:50.433]THE TEAMMATES PROGRAM, BIG BROTHERS, BIG SISTERS, ALL OF
- [00:58:54.433]THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE EARLY INTERVENTION AND HELPING KIDS TO
- [00:58:59.834]AVOID CRIMINAL BEHAVIORS.
- [00:59:02.166]THEY'RE NOT GETTING FUNDED.
- [00:59:03.667]THEY WANT TO PURSUE THE NOTION OF JUSTICE.
- [00:59:07.900]WE GET TO JUSTICE AND IT'S UNJUST IF WE USE ALL OF THE CASH
- [00:59:12.633]ON ONE CASE AND LEAVE THE OTHER FAMILIES OF THE HOMICIDE VICTIMS
- [00:59:17.300]WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE OR WE'RE NOT PROPERLY FUNDING GOOD
- [00:59:23.066]PROGRAMS THAT REDUCE THE RATE OF VIOLENCE IN OUR COMMUNITY.
- [00:59:27.400]>> PROFESSOR, TO GO BACK TO THE DETERRENT MOTION IN A MOMENT.
- [00:59:33.834]YOU LOST THE STUDIES THAT LOOKED AT THE DETERRENT OF
- [00:59:38.467]THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [00:59:38.834]MOST SOCIOLOGISTS AND CRIMINOLOGISTS STUDIED THIS.
- [00:59:42.233]YOU DON'T COMMIT THE MURDERS WERE NOT DETERRED.
- [00:59:44.867]BUT HOW DO WE KNOW THAT OTHERS WERE NOT SO DETERRED.
- [00:59:47.667]IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE EXISTENCE OF THE FEDERAL DEATH
- [00:59:50.433]PENALTY AND THE DEATH PENALTY OF THE MAJORITY OF STATES MIGHT ACT
- [00:59:54.100]AS A DETERRENT TO CRIMINALS EVEN IN STATES WITHOUT THE DEATH
- [00:59:57.834]PENALTY BECAUSE THE CRIMINALS DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE
- [01:00:00.300]JURISDICTIONAL ISSUES AND INCORRECTLY BELIEVES THEY
- [01:00:03.867]ARE PUT TO DEATH FOR A MURDER EVEN IN A STATE THAT
- [01:00:08.100]DOES NOT HAVE IT?
- [01:00:08.500]HOW CAN WE FIND THAT OUT?
- [01:00:18.433]>> IT WASN'T AVAILABLE IN 1973 WHEN NEBRASKA -- THE DEATH
- [01:00:22.333]PENALTY IN THIS STATE.
- [01:00:24.133]DIFFERENT WAYS TO DO IT.
- [01:00:25.367]YOU CAN LOOK AT THE BE DEATH PENALTY IN STATES THAT DON'T
- [01:00:28.867]HAVE IT OR A TIME SERIES ANALYSIS THAT YOU CAN PREDICT
- [01:00:32.200]MURDER RATES BASED ON A WIDE ARRAY OF FACTORS AND SEE IF THE
- [01:00:36.300]EXISTENCE OF THE DEATH PENALTY HAVE A DETERRED EFFECT.
- [01:00:40.633]THE CRIMINOLOGISTS READ THIS STUFF BECAUSE OF THE SURVEY TWO
- [01:00:43.400]DIFFERENT TIMES OF THE TOP CRIMINOLOGISTS
- [01:00:46.066]IN THE UNITED STATES.
- [01:00:46.400]THEY SAY ON THEIR BASIS OF READING THE LITERATURE, THERE'S
- [01:00:49.500]NO EVIDENCE THAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS OVER AND ABOVE THE
- [01:00:54.800]DETERRENT EFFECT OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [01:00:56.900]PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT.
- [01:00:58.400]THEY SAID DOWN HERE TAKE A STUDY AND EVERY EXECUTION
- [01:01:06.300]DETERS 100 HOMICIDE.
- [01:01:06.667]SO THE RESULTS ARE MIXED.
- [01:01:10.900]THE MAJOR STUDY WAS DONE -- YOU CAN E-MAIL ME.
- [01:01:15.233]I'LL SEND YOU THE RESULTS OF THIS.
- [01:01:16.867]THIS IS LIKE THE TOP EGGHEAD SCHOLARS.
- [01:01:19.400]THAT'S THE JOB TO READ ALL OF THIS STUFF.
- [01:01:22.266]LOOK, LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE IS REALLY NOT SO -- NOT SO GOOD.
- [01:01:25.900]STUDENTS TAKING NOTES SHOULD WRITE DOWN LIFE IN PRISON
- [01:01:30.700]REALLY -- CAN I SAY SUCKS?
- [01:01:36.000]IT SUCKS.
- [01:01:37.400]I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PRECISE WORD SHOULD BE.
- [01:01:39.867]>> SHOULD WE MAKE IT WORSE FOR THOSE WHO WOULD HAVE GOTTEN
- [01:01:44.767]THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:01:46.133]SHOULD WE MAKE PRISON WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE
- [01:01:48.533]WORSE FOR THEM?
- [01:01:49.367]>> NO, LIFE IN PRISON IS PRETTY BAD.
- [01:01:51.533]PRISONS HAVE A WAY OF MAKING THINGS WORSE WITH PEOPLE WHO DO
- [01:01:55.000]NOT CONFORM WITH THE RULES.
- [01:01:56.300]THE FIRST THING THAT GOES WITH YOUR VISITS, THEN YOUR BOOKS,
- [01:02:00.233]THEN AN ISOLATION CELL.
- [01:02:01.900]WE NEED PEOPLE IN PRISON USUALLY HAVE ACCESS TO TELEVISIONS,
- [01:02:05.333]IF NOT, THEY GO NUTS.
- [01:02:06.900]THE GUARDS LOVE TELEVISION.
- [01:02:08.066]GIVES THE GUY SOMETHING TO DO.
- [01:02:11.066]THEY LOSE THEIR TELEVISION.
- [01:02:12.266]YOU KNOW, THE EXECUTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1977, 12% OF
- [01:02:17.767]THOSE EXECUTED DROPPED THEIR APPEALS WOULD RATHER BE DEAD.
- [01:02:23.433]DROPPED THE APPEALS, FIRED THEIR LAWYERS.
- [01:02:26.533]SAY KILL ME.
- [01:02:27.567]I WOULD RATHER BE DEAD THAN DO LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [01:02:31.834]LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE ISN'T SO BAD FOR ME, WELL, MY WIFE, MY DOG.
- [01:02:35.500]I'M GOING TO BE DEAD IN TEN YEARS.
- [01:02:37.767]I'M GOING TO HAVE MY HEART ATTACK, I DON'T KNOW, HOPEFULLY
- [01:02:40.266]15 YEARS, RIGHT?
- [01:02:41.233]BUT IF YOU'RE A STUDENT HERE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA,
- [01:02:44.700]YOU'RE 18, 20, 22 YEARS OLD, LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE IS A
- [01:02:49.400]REALLY LONG TIME.
- [01:02:50.600]AND THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN IN PRISONS KNOW AND THOSE WHO
- [01:02:56.367]HAVEN'T BEEN THERE SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY'RE HORRIBLE PLACES.
- [01:03:02.467]THE PEOPLE ARE MISERABLE.
- [01:03:04.867]EVERY DAY THEY HAVE TO LIVE WITH THEIR GUILT.
- [01:03:08.100]PERHAPS THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH GUILT WHEN THEY GET THERE.
- [01:03:10.767]WE CAN ALWAYS HOPE FOR REDEMPTION.
- [01:03:12.834]WE CAN KEEP SOME OF THESE PEOPLE -- KEEP THE PEOPLE ALIVE
- [01:03:16.033]AND LEARN FROM THEM.
- [01:03:17.233]WORKED TEN YEARS WITH TED BUNDY.
- [01:03:21.166]PRETTY STRANGE GUY.
- [01:03:21.900]THEY KILLED HIM.
- [01:03:22.834]WHO KNOWS WHAT MADE HIM TICK?
- [01:03:27.400]WELL, WITH DON'T KNOW.
- [01:03:29.300]HE'S DEAD.
- [01:03:29.967]WE KEEP HIM ALIVE FOR A WHILE LONGER FOR NATURAL DEATH, HE
- [01:03:33.767]COULD HAVE COME TO GRIPS.
- [01:03:35.400]HE WAS STRUGGLING TO DO IT.
- [01:03:36.734]COMING TO GRIPS WITH THE HORROR OF HIS CRIMES.
- [01:03:40.467]WE COULD HAVE LEARNED FROM IT.
- [01:03:42.467]WE COULD PERHAPS PREVENT FUTURE HOMICIDE FROM DOING
- [01:03:46.367]SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
- [01:03:47.800]SO I THINK THE DETERRENT FACT OF THE DEATH PENALTY OF LIFE
- [01:03:51.200]WITHOUT PAROLE, WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE
- [01:03:54.533]IS A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE EXISTENCE.
- [01:04:04.100]>> MR. BROWN, WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESPOND?
- [01:04:06.667]>> IF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE IS WORSE THAN DEATH, WE WOULDN'T
- [01:04:10.400]HAVE DEATH PENALTY PEOPLE.
- [01:04:11.400]TO ME, IT'S A RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT.
- [01:04:13.900]NOBODY WANTS TO DIE.
- [01:04:15.767]ALMOST EVERYONE WILL SAY I WOULD PREFER TO LIVE.
- [01:04:19.367]AND THE ANSWER TO WHY DOES X GET TO LIVE AND I DON'T GET TO
- [01:04:25.100]LIVE -- THE ANSWER SHOULD BE BECAUSE X ONLY ROBBED A BANK.
- [01:04:31.567]YOU ROBBED A BANK AND SLAUGHTERED FIVE PEOPLE.
- [01:04:34.567]THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T GET TO LIVE AND X DOES.
- [01:04:39.133]AND X KILLED SOMEBODY AND X IS DOING LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.
- [01:04:43.867]THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ULTIMATELY IS IF WE MAKE LIFE
- [01:04:50.867]WITHOUT PAROLE THE MAXIMUM PUNISHMENT THAT WE CAN IMPOSE
- [01:04:54.567]FOR PEOPLE WHO GO OUT AND KILL AT RANDOM,
- [01:05:02.367]KILL FOR THEIR SEXUAL PLEASURE.
- [01:05:02.734]IF WE MAKE LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE THE MAXIMUM PUNISHMENT, HOW DO
- [01:05:07.133]WE PROPORTIONATELY PUNISH PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T KILLED 20 PEOPLE?
- [01:05:12.567]DO WE HAVE TO SAY IF WE'RE TRYING TO BE PROPORTIONATE,
- [01:05:17.166]THOSE PEOPLE GET SENTENCED TO LESS, EVERYBODY GETS
- [01:05:20.700]SENTENCED TO LESS.
- [01:05:21.233]AT SOME POINT, WE RATCHET DOWN THE WHOLE SYSTEM.
- [01:05:23.700]WE'RE CERTAINLY FREE TO DO THAT.
- [01:05:26.834]BUT I DON'T THINK OUR GUT REACTION IS THAT'S
- [01:05:30.967]WHAT WE WANT TO DO.
- [01:05:33.367]DETERRENCE TO ME IS A VERY THORNY ISSUE.
- [01:05:35.734]AND I'VE ALREADY SAID, I THINK THE BEST THING I CAN SAY ABOUT
- [01:05:39.100]DETERRENCE IS IF THE PUBLIC BELIEVES IT MAKES THEY AND THEIR
- [01:05:42.533]CHILDREN SAFER AND THEY CAN GO OUT THERE AND LEAD A NORMAL
- [01:05:47.700]LIFE, THAT IS A HUGE BENEFIT TO SOCIETY REGARDLESS OF WHETHER
- [01:05:52.567]IT'S TRUE OR NOT.
- [01:05:55.667]BUT I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, I'VE LIVED WITH THESE CASES
- [01:06:01.066]FOR 30 YEARS.
- [01:06:02.967]I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, THERE WILL
- [01:06:06.900]BE PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT BE DETERRED.
- [01:06:10.667]THEY'RE NOT DETERRED BY THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:06:13.033]AND WE'LL BE LEFT WITH THE QUESTION, WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE
- [01:06:19.166]ONES WHO AREN'T DETERRED.
- [01:06:23.200]THAT'S WHAT THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT.
- [01:06:25.500]NOT ABOUT SOCIAL ENGINEERING.
- [01:06:26.900]WE WILL NEVER GET THE PHONE CALL AT THE LINCOLN POLICE DEPARTMENT
- [01:06:30.533]SAYING WELL I WAS ABOUT TO BLOW UP THE SCHOOL BUS OF KIDS BUT I
- [01:06:35.033]THOUGHT ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY AND I JUST DECIDED NOT TO DO IT.
- [01:06:38.967]WE AREN'T GOING TO GET THAT PHONE CALL.
- [01:06:42.700]SO WE DON'T KNOW.
- [01:06:45.767]WE HOPE.
- [01:06:49.433]THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH HOPING BUT THERE'S SOMETHING
- [01:06:51.500]VERY WRONG WITH NOT HAVING A PLAN FOR THE PERSON THAT ISN'T
- [01:06:54.533]DETERRED AND WREAKS HAVOC ON OUR COMMUNITY.
- [01:07:01.900]>> I LIKE TO MENTION ONE THING THAT HASN'T BEEN BROUGHT UP.
- [01:07:04.433]THE FACT THAT THE DEATH PENALTY OVER AND ABOVE LIFE IMPRISONMENT
- [01:07:09.867]IS FELT, I BELIEVE, LESS BY THE INMATE AND MORE BY HIS FAMILY.
- [01:07:15.000]I'VE GONE THROUGH LAST VISITS WITH 50 PEOPLE AND WATCHING
- [01:07:18.967]THOSE GUYS SAY GOOD-BYE TO THEIR MOM, THEIR KIDS, REMEMBER IN 19
- [01:07:23.834]4, WALKING DOWN TO FLORIDA STATE PRISON WITH A LAWYER, THE
- [01:07:27.700]INMATE'S WIFE, AND TWO KIDS LIKE 9 AND 12, SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
- [01:07:30.934]IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, THEY'RE SCREAMING.
- [01:07:33.600]UP AND DOWN THE HALLWAY.
- [01:07:35.333]THERE'S PRISONS -- THEY MAKE PRISONS TO COPE.
- [01:07:38.000]THEY'RE CLANGING TO THE BARS, PLEASE -- PLEASE DON'T KILL MY
- [01:07:42.100]DADDY, THAT KIND OF STUFF.
- [01:07:43.734]I'M PINCHING MYSELF.
- [01:07:44.867]IS THIS WEIRD, IS IT REALLY GOING ON?
- [01:07:47.266]DAVID WASHINGTON, HE WAS EXECUTED THE NEXT MORNING.
- [01:07:50.300]THEY WATCHED DAVID WASHINGTON BE LED DOWN THE HALLWAY BACK TO THE
- [01:07:55.000]ELECTRIC CHAIR AND PEOPLE LEFT WALKING OUT THE FRONT DOOR
- [01:07:57.266]WITH THE FAMILY.
- [01:07:58.200]NOBODY EVER THINKS ABOUT THE FAMILY OF THE CONDEMNED.
- [01:08:00.734]THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT AT WORK.
- [01:08:02.600]THEY DON'T GET SUPPORT AT THE CHURCH.
- [01:08:04.600]THEY DON'T EVEN WANT THEIR NEIGHBORS TO KNOW.
- [01:08:08.200]IT'S LIKE -- THE DEATH -- IN ORDER FOR A PUNISHMENT TO BE
- [01:08:12.300]JUST, IT HAS TO AFFECT ONLY THE GUILTY.
- [01:08:14.300]IT'S GOT TO SHOOT LIKE A RIFLE.
- [01:08:18.367]THE DEATH PENALTY IS LIKE A SHOTGUN, IT AFFECTS THE FAMILY
- [01:08:24.166]AND IT AFFECTS THE KIDS WHO HAVE TO GROW UP WITH THE DEAD FATHER
- [01:08:27.834]THEY COULDN'T EVEN VISIT IN PRISON.
- [01:08:29.500]THE REALITY OF THAT IS YOU AND I CAN THINK ABOUT OUR DEATHS,
- [01:08:33.433]ANTICIPATE OUR DEATHS, WE CAN'T REFLECT ON OUR DEATHS BECAUSE
- [01:08:36.266]WE'LL BE DEAD.
- [01:08:36.934]BUT THE MOMS CAN.
- [01:08:38.500]AND THE WIVES CAN.
- [01:08:41.033]IT PARTIALLY AFFECTS WOMEN AND THE KIDS CAN.
- [01:08:43.633]CAN YOU IMAGINE GROWING UP TRYING TO LIVE WITH A DECENT
- [01:08:46.867]LIFE WHEN YOUR DAD IS EXECUTED?
- [01:08:52.367]THE NOTION OF JUSTICE IS NOT AFFECTING JUST THE CRIMINAL.
- [01:08:55.700]IT AFFECTS THE EVER WIDER CIRCLE OF TRAGEDY.
- [01:08:59.000]>> BEFORE WE START BEING CONCERNED ABOUT THE CHILDREN OF
- [01:09:01.000]THOSE CONDEMNED TO DIE, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK ABOUT THE PARENTS
- [01:09:06.000]AND THE COMMUNITY OF TERRIFIED PARENTS WHO DIDN'T GET TO SAY TO
- [01:09:10.800]JOHN GILBERT, PLEASE DON'T STAB MY BABY TO DEATH.
- [01:09:16.867]PLEASE DON'T SNATCH HIM OFF OF THE STREET.
- [01:09:19.133]THEY DIDN'T GET TO SAY THAT.
- [01:09:20.800]ALL THEY GOT TO DO IS GO OUT IN THE WEEDS AND FIND THEIR BABIES.
- [01:09:26.400]THAT'S THE KIND OF EVIL THAT WE NEED TO DECIDE IF WE WANT TO
- [01:09:32.667]PUNISH THAT THE SAME WAY WE PUNISH OTHER FIRST DEGREE
- [01:09:36.100]MURDERS OR IF IT'S WORSE.
- [01:09:37.433]IF IT'S WORSE, IT DESERVES A WORSE PUNISHMENT.
- [01:09:45.400]>> DO YOU WANT TO RESPOND,
- [01:09:48.066]MR. RADELET.
- [01:09:48.400]>> YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
- [01:09:51.867]>> EXECUTED IN NEBRASKA, I DON'T KNOW, 1992, SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
- [01:09:57.800]HE'S A BAD GUY, A BAD DUDE.
- [01:10:01.066]NEBRASKA HAS SOME BAD DUDES.
- [01:10:04.100]I WANT TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THEM.
- [01:10:06.066]YOU CAN BE DIFFERENT FROM THEM.
- [01:10:07.900]YOU DON'T WANT TO IMITATE WHAT THEY DO.
- [01:10:09.600]YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS ANYMORE.
- [01:10:11.967]JOHN GILBERT CAN GO OUT IN PRISON.
- [01:10:13.600]THROW HIM IN A CELL.
- [01:10:16.200]YOU KNOW?
- [01:10:16.867]SEE YOU IN 50 YEARS, SEE YOU IN HEAVEN, YOU KNOW?
- [01:10:20.467]WE DON'T IMITATE THE ACTS THAT WE WANT TO -- THAT WE WANT
- [01:10:26.433]TO NOT HAPPEN.
- [01:10:26.967]IT THIS IS OUR DECISION.
- [01:10:30.166]>> OKAY, I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE ON
- [01:10:33.467]THE SAME THING SO I'LL TRY TO COVER THEM ALL.
- [01:10:39.667]THERE'S SIGNIFICANT RESEARCH OF THE MAJORITY OF PRISONERS ON
- [01:10:42.767]DEATH ROW OF BLACK MEN.
- [01:10:44.400]HOW DO WE ADDRESS QUALITY IN THE DEATH PENALTY GIVEN THERE ARE
- [01:10:47.867]FAR MORE CONVICTIONS OF RACIAL MINORITIES?
- [01:10:50.533]>> I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS WE DO NOT -- THE
- [01:10:57.567]GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LICENSE PEOPLE TO KILL.
- [01:11:01.934]WE DON'T CONTROL WHO THE CLASS OF KILLERS ARE.
- [01:11:07.700]KILLERS CHOOSE TO TAKE AN INNOCENT LIFE AND WE HAVE TO
- [01:11:10.400]REACT TO THEM.
- [01:11:12.500]AND WE CAN'T SAY TO A WHITE KILLER OR A BLACK KILLER OR A
- [01:11:17.467]HISPANIC KILLER, "I'M SORRY, WE CAN'T ARREST YOU."
- [01:11:21.800]WE CAN'T TRY YOU, WE CAN'T CONVICT YOU, WE CAN'T
- [01:11:25.133]INCARCERATE YOU BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO KNOCK OUR NUMBERS
- [01:11:27.633]OUT OF BALANCE.
- [01:11:28.333]WE CAN'T DO IT.
- [01:11:30.667]AND OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ISN'T BASED ON RACE.
- [01:11:35.300]OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT A
- [01:11:41.900]PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL COMMITTED A PARTICULAR ACT.
- [01:11:46.667]IF THE EVIDENCE SAYS THIS INDIVIDUAL COMMITTED THIS ACT
- [01:11:51.166]AND THAT ACT IS A CRIME, WHETHER IT'S A HORRIBLE HOMICIDE OR A
- [01:11:55.266]BURGLARY OR A ROBBERY, THE SYSTEM DOESN'T SAY,
- [01:12:01.233]ARE YOU BLACK?
- [01:12:01.600]IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.
- [01:12:03.000]IT SAYS, ARE YOU GUILTY.
- [01:12:07.233]AND IF THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE,
- [01:12:11.667]MEN, WOMEN, RACE, PROTESTANTS, CATHOLICS, THAT'S NOT HOW
- [01:12:17.400]OUR SYSTEM WORKS.
- [01:12:18.300]SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO JUDGE THE RESULT OF AN INDIVIDUALIZED
- [01:12:22.433]SYSTEM BY SAYING, WELL, IN THE END, YOU'VE GOT
- [01:12:28.433]TOO MUCH OF SOMEBODY.
- [01:12:28.800]BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE CHALLENGE WE FACE FROM THE GET-GO.
- [01:12:33.333]THE CHALLENGE WE FACE IS TO FIND THE PERSON.
- [01:12:38.567]WE DON'T SAY, OH, MY GOSH, I CAN'T ARREST A HISPANIC BECAUSE
- [01:12:44.500]WE'RE ALREADY OVER OUR QUOTA ON HISPANICS TODAY.
- [01:12:47.600]WE CAN'T DO THAT AND MAKE THE PUBLIC SAFE.
- [01:12:54.166]SO WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THE INDIVIDUALS WHO COMMIT CRIMES.
- [01:12:57.900]NOW, THOSE STATISTICS MAY WELL TELL US WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM IN
- [01:13:02.000]THAT COMMUNITY BECAUSE A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF
- [01:13:05.200]PEOPLE IN THAT CLASSIFICATION SEEM TO BE COMMITTING CRIMES.
- [01:13:10.166]AND THAT'S A LEGITIMATE FOCUS OF CONCERN.
- [01:13:16.834]SO THAT DOESN'T TELL ME THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.
- [01:13:20.567]IT MAY BE INDICATION IT ISN'T A PROBLEM SOMEWHERE.
- [01:13:22.867]WE MAY BE CALLED UPON TO ADDRESS IT.
- [01:13:26.734]THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK ON RACE, IT WORKS
- [01:13:28.900]ON EVIDENCE AND IT WORKS ON INDIVIDUAL DEFENDANTS AND
- [01:13:32.567]INDIVIDUAL CRIMES.
- [01:13:33.467]AND TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE TO THE FACT THAT IN THE END YOU
- [01:13:36.500]FOUND ALL OF THESE PEOPLE GUILTY AND THEY DON'T MATCH THE SAME
- [01:13:39.767]PROFILE AS I SEE WHEN I'M WALKING AROUND GATEWAY MALL JUST
- [01:13:43.467]ISN'T A LEGITIMATE TEST IN MY OPINION.
- [01:13:47.200]>> OKAY.
- [01:13:48.300]SO AS WE MEET TONIGHT, THERE ARE 3100 PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW
- [01:13:52.233]IN THE UNITED STATES.
- [01:13:53.400]3100.
- [01:13:53.834]THERE'S PROBABLY 1,000 PEOPLE HERE.
- [01:13:55.033]SO THREE TIMES THIS AUDIENCE.
- [01:13:57.667]OF THAT POPULATION, 57% ARE MINORITIES.
- [01:14:02.300]SO IT'S DISPROPORTIONATE.
- [01:14:06.266]IN NEBRASKA, THE RACIAL DISPARITIES ARE ALSO EVIDENCED.
- [01:14:10.200]SOMETHING GOING ON.
- [01:14:11.166]THERE'S 11 ON DEATH ROW HERE IN NEBRASKA.
- [01:14:13.433]7 OF THE 11 ARE BLACK OR LATINO.
- [01:14:15.867]IT'S A LITTLE ODD.
- [01:14:17.600]THE RESEARCH THAT'S BEEN DONE ON THIS, HOWEVER, DOES NOT REALLY
- [01:14:21.367]FIND AN ACROSS-THE-BOARD RACE OF DEFENDANT EFFECT,
- [01:14:25.166]IT'S MORE RACE OF VICTIM.
- [01:14:26.233]SO THE GOOD STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE, THEY'VE BEEN DONE IN
- [01:14:30.266]A LOT OF STATES, FLORIDA, GEORGIA, CALIFORNIA, ILLINOIS,
- [01:14:33.767]NORTH CAROLINA, AND OTHERS, HAVE FOUND THAT
- [01:14:37.734]IT'S THE RACE OF THE VICTIM.
- [01:14:38.066]AND THESE STUDIES HAVE CONCLUDED MORE OR LESS THAT GIVEN A
- [01:14:45.000]SIMILAR HOMICIDE, THE ODDS OF THE DEATH SENTENCE ARE BETWEEN
- [01:14:48.467]THREE AND FOUR TIMES HIGHER TO THOSE WHO KILL WHITES THAN FOR
- [01:14:51.967]THOSE WHO KILL BLACKS.
- [01:14:52.800]THAT MEANS IF YOU KILL SOMEONE IN A 7-ELEVEN ROBBERY, THE ODDS
- [01:14:57.300]OF A DEATH SENTENCE IS MUCH HIGHER IF YOU KILL A WHITE CLERK
- [01:15:00.834]INSTEAD OF A BLACK CLERK.
- [01:15:01.967]IF YOU KILL A COP, THE ODDS OF A DEATH SENTENCE MUCH HIGHER IF
- [01:15:06.500]YOU KILL A WHITE COP THAN A BLACK COP.
- [01:15:08.567]IF YOU DO A DOUBLE MURDER, THIS STUFF -- WE RECENTLY FINISHED A
- [01:15:13.834]STUDY IN NORTH CAROLINA.
- [01:15:14.633]WE TOOK OUT ALL OF THE MULTIPLE HOMICIDE.
- [01:15:17.433]SURE ENOUGH, THE SAME RACIAL DISPARITIES SHOW UP IF YOU KILL
- [01:15:20.967]MULTIPLE VICTIMS WHO ARE MINORITIES, YOU'RE MUCH MORE
- [01:15:24.767]LIKELY TO GET TO THE DEATH SENTENCE THAN IF YOU KILL
- [01:15:28.467]MULTIPLE VICTIMS WHO ARE RIGHT.
- [01:15:30.467]HISTORICALLY, WE DON'T HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY FOR RAPE ANYMORE,
- [01:15:34.000]THANK GOD, GOT RID OF IT IN 1977.
- [01:15:38.266]CERTAINLY WAS JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE.
- [01:15:42.567]RAPE IS TO BE EXECUTED.
- [01:15:44.700]BETWEEN 1930 AND 1967, THERE WERE 455 PEOPLE EXECUTED FOR
- [01:15:50.033]RAPE IN THE UNITED STATES.
- [01:15:52.266]405 OF THEM, 89.5% WERE BLACK MEN WITH WHITE VICTIMS.
- [01:15:56.300]NOW, I'M SURE THE JUDGE WOULD SAY, WELL,
- [01:16:04.133]WE DON'T LOOK AT RACE.
- [01:16:05.633]COINCIDENTAL THEY ALL HAPPEN TO BE BLACK ON WHITE.
- [01:16:10.633]IT'S PREPOSTEROUS.
- [01:16:11.533]RAPE IS IN A LOT OF AREAS IN AMERICAN LIFE.
- [01:16:14.767]WE CAN'T PREP TEND THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS THE ONLY
- [01:16:18.166]SYSTEM OR PROGRAM OR INSTITUTION IN AMERICAN SOCIETY
- [01:16:21.734]THAT'S NOT RACIALLY BIASED.
- [01:16:23.233]WE'VE COME A LONG WAY TOWARDS EQUALITY BUT OUR GENERATION
- [01:16:26.100]STILL HAS TO FACE THE PROBLEMS OF RACISM AND ETHNIC BIAS THAT
- [01:16:30.233]WE INHERITED FROM OUR ANCESTORS.
- [01:16:33.000]THAT I THINK IS MOST SEEN BY DEATH SENTENCING
- [01:16:35.467]IN THE UNITED STATES.
- [01:16:39.400]THAT'S MINORITY PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW FOR KILLING WHITES.
- [01:16:42.867]STATISTICALLY, YOU LOOK AT ANY STUDY AND IT'S PROVEN
- [01:16:48.200]BY THOSE NUMBERS.
- [01:16:54.567]>> ANOTHER QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE.
- [01:16:57.300]I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS HERE THIS EVENING.
- [01:17:00.700]EVERY MAN ON DEATH ROW COULD NOT HIRE AN ATTORNEY.
- [01:17:03.667]HOWEVER, PEOPLE CONVICTED OF LESSER CRIMES RECEIVED LESSER
- [01:17:09.300]SENTENCES BECAUSE THEY COULD GET AN ATTORNEY.
- [01:17:11.834]IS THIS A CASE OF BUYING OUT OF THE DEATH PENALTY UNDERMINE
- [01:17:15.233]JUSTICE AND HOW CAN IT BE SOLVE?
- [01:17:17.533]>> I'LL START WITH YOU.
- [01:17:18.967]>> YES.
- [01:17:19.967]AGREE.
- [01:17:20.300]>> LET ME SAY ONE MORE THING.
- [01:17:21.533]>> YES, OKAY.
- [01:17:22.700]>> NEBRASKA HAS GOT SOME OF THE BEST DEATH PENALTY LAWYERS IN
- [01:17:27.533]THE UNITED STATES.
- [01:17:28.300]SOMETHING HERE TONIGHT.
- [01:17:29.333]REALLY IMPRESSIVE.
- [01:17:30.834]ALAN PETERSON IS HERE.
- [01:17:38.633]NOW OUR KIDS START NAMING NAMES.
- [01:17:43.233]AND NEBRASKA HAS A WHOLE LOT OF -- REALLY GOOD PUBLIC
- [01:17:48.033]DEFENDER SYSTEM TOO.
- [01:17:49.100]>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW THE QUESTION JUST
- [01:17:54.300]KIND OF BOGGLES MY MIND.
- [01:17:55.900]I DON'T -- YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY OUT.
- [01:17:58.767]AT LEAST NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE.
- [01:18:00.200]YOU DON'T BUY YOUR WAY OUT OF THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:18:03.333]AND I WOULD AGREE, NEBRASKA HAS GOOD ATTORNEYS.
- [01:18:13.233]WHO PROVIDE DEFENSE SERVICES TO CRIMINALS -- INDIGENT ACCUSED
- [01:18:18.967]REGARDLESS OF THE CRIME.
- [01:18:20.100]I THINK WE ARE REALLY BLESSED.
- [01:18:22.700]I HEAR HORROR STORIES FROM MY PEERS IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS.
- [01:18:28.333]SOMETHING ABOUT HAVING TO DEAL WITH INCOMPETENCE THAT EVEN THE
- [01:18:32.467]PROSECUTION IS TRYING TO PROTECT AGAINST AND SOME OF IT IS
- [01:18:36.433]BECAUSE IT IS JUST GUERRILLA WARFARE WITH THE DEFENSE.
- [01:18:38.734]AND I HAVE TO SAY, MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEFENSE IN THIS STATE
- [01:18:42.700]IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL.
- [01:18:47.133]AND WE ARE LUCKY AS A COMMUNITY, AS A STATE, AS PEOPLE I CAN'T
- [01:18:53.100]SAY JUSTICE ENEMY BECAUSE THAT'S NOT A GOOD WORD.
- [01:18:55.967]PEOPLE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
- [01:19:07.300]WE'RE VERY LUCKY.
- [01:19:08.700]I DON'T KNOW OF AN INSTANCE WHERE YOU GO OUT AND HAVE MONEY
- [01:19:11.700]YOU SPEND MONEY, IF YOU HAVE MONEY,
- [01:19:14.934]YOU'RE GOING BE PUNISHED LESS.
- [01:19:15.233]I CAN'T THINK OF A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE WHERE IN NEBRASKA OR ANY
- [01:19:20.066]OTHER JURISDICTION FOR THAT MATTER.
- [01:19:21.934]YOU GET THE LUCK OF THE DRAW AND O.J. SIMPSON THEATER AND THAT
- [01:19:25.333]KIND OF THING, I CAN'T SAY IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I HAVE EVER
- [01:19:29.233]SEEN JUSTICE ALTERED IN ITS COURSE BY THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY
- [01:19:34.233]COULD AFFORD A LAWYER AND THE DEFENDANT THAT WAS HEARD RIGHT
- [01:19:39.233]AFTER THEM COULD NOT.
- [01:19:40.300]I DON'T HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT TO OFFER YOU.
- [01:19:42.767]IT MAKES ME SKEPTICAL THAT THERE'S A LOT OF -- A LOT OF
- [01:19:46.800]TRUTH TO THAT STATEMENT.
- [01:19:51.000]>> THIS IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION FOR PROFESSOR RADELET.
- [01:19:54.934]IN THE CASE OF DECREASING RATE OF SOLVING HOMICIDE THAT YOU
- [01:19:58.166]MENTIONED, COULD THAT BE A RESULT OF MORE CAREFUL
- [01:20:02.100]INVESTIGATIVE METHODS, MEANING THAT MANY OF THE PREVIOUS
- [01:20:06.233]HOMICIDE WERE WRONGFUL CONVICTION S?
- [01:20:07.467]>> RIGHT.
- [01:20:08.667]THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT WE'RE MAKING ANY FEWER
- [01:20:12.800]ERRORS IN HOMICIDE CONVICTIONS TODAY THAN WE WERE IN EARLIER
- [01:20:16.433]YEARS OF THE CENTURY.
- [01:20:17.633]IT'S NOT FURTHER -- IT'S NOT MORE CAREFUL INVESTIGATION.
- [01:20:21.200]ONE OF THE THINGS GOING ON WITH THE HOMICIDE RATE, 92% WERE
- [01:20:25.333]CLEARED IN 1960 DOWN TO 62% IN 2005 IS THAT THE NATURE OF
- [01:20:29.467]HOMICIDE IS CHANGED.
- [01:20:30.800]SO THE TYPICAL HOMICIDE IN 1960 WAS BASICALLY DOMESTIC, SPOUSE
- [01:20:37.567]TO SPOUSE, DROPS GUN, OH, MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE?
- [01:20:40.700]CALL THE COPS, BOOM, YOU'RE BUSTED.
- [01:20:43.700]TODAY HOMICIDE ARE STILL THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF HOMICIDE IS
- [01:20:46.600]WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS.
- [01:20:47.700]THE PERSON WHO HAS THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF KILLING YOU?
- [01:20:51.800]EH -- YOUR FAMILY?
- [01:20:53.133]YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR DOG?
- [01:20:55.834]ANYHOW, BUT THERE'S BEEN AN INCREASE IN MORE DIFFICULT
- [01:20:59.467]CRIMES TO SOLVE GANG SHOOTINGS, DRIVE-BY SHOOTINGS, AND THE
- [01:21:05.000]GROWTH OF THIS DO NOT SNITCH CULTURE IN SOME URBAN AREAS HAS
- [01:21:09.200]BEEN REALLY A PROBLEM BECAUSE PEOPLE JUST WON'T
- [01:21:12.000]TALK TO THE COPS.
- [01:21:12.300]WE NEED TO DO BETTER POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS.
- [01:21:16.233]DO A BETTER JOB OF HIRING POLICE OF COLOR, COPS OF COLOR, SO WE
- [01:21:19.800]CAN GET OUT TO THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND HAVE CONTACTS
- [01:21:23.100]TO SOLVE THE CRIME.
- [01:21:23.433]SO NATURALLY WHAT'S GOING ON THERE, IT'S NOT A BETTER
- [01:21:27.600]INVESTIGATION OR A WORSE INVESTIGATION THAT LEADS TO THE
- [01:21:30.467]DECREASE IN CLEARANCE RATES.
- [01:21:35.667]>> THERE ARE SEVERAL QUESTIONS HERE.
- [01:21:37.400]AND THIS WILL BE THE LAST QUESTION BEFORE
- [01:21:40.934]WE HAVE CLOSING STATEMENTS.
- [01:21:41.333]ONE OF THEM IS DO YOU THINK THE DEATH PENALTY HAS MOVED TO THE
- [01:21:45.967]HUMAN NATURE OF AN EYE FOR AN EYE.
- [01:21:48.533]THE OTHER IS IF WE SAY THAT THE MURDER IS ILLEGAL, BULL BECAUSE
- [01:21:52.734]HUMANS SHOULDN'T KILL EACH OTHER, THEN HOW COME THAT ISN'T
- [01:21:55.233]IN THE DEATH PENALTY DISCUSSION.
- [01:21:56.533]>> COULD YOU REPEAT THE LAST PART OF THAT?
- [01:21:58.433]>> WELL, IT'S THE REASON -- IF WE HAVE A LAW AGAINST MURDER
- [01:22:03.600]BECAUSE PEOPLE SHOULDN'T KILL EACH OTHER, HOW COME THAT
- [01:22:06.567]DOESN'T COME UP, THAT IDEA DOESN'T COME UP IN THE
- [01:22:09.266]DEATH PENALTY DEBATE.
- [01:22:10.266]>> THE ANSWER IS IT DOES COME UP.
- [01:22:13.834]AND THE QUESTION IS ASKED ROUTINELY AREN'T WE DOING THE
- [01:22:17.867]SAME THING THAT THE KILLER DID WHEN WE EXECUTE THEM?
- [01:22:22.233]AND MY ANSWER VERY EMPHATICALLY IS NO, WE AREN'T DOING THE SAME
- [01:22:25.767]THING THE KILLER DID.
- [01:22:27.200]THE KILLER ON THEIR OWN DECIDED TO TAKE AN INNOCENT HUMAN LIFE.
- [01:22:33.066]WE, AS A SOCIETY AND THROUGH OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, ARE
- [01:22:38.533]DECIDING TO TAKE A GUILTY LIFE.
- [01:22:40.633]AND IF THAT DISTINCTION IS LOST ON US, THEN WE ARE ADRIFT.
- [01:22:46.734]BUT THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO FOR THEIR
- [01:22:52.300]OWN PLEASURE OR CONVENIENCE TAKES AN INNOCENT LIFE AND A
- [01:22:56.166]COMMUNITY THAT SAYS THAT OFFENDS US AND WE WILL TAKE
- [01:22:59.467]THE LIFE OF THE GUILTY.
- [01:22:59.900]IT SEEMS TO ME TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CONSTRUCTS.
- [01:23:03.467]NOW, WHAT WAS THE FIRST PART OF THAT QUESTION?
- [01:23:05.500]BECAUSE I -- >> JUST WHETHER AN EYE FOR AN
- [01:23:08.867]EYE WAS ROOTED IN SOMETHING DEEP IN OUR HUMAN NATURE.
- [01:23:11.633]>> WELL, I THINK -- THE THING I FIND INTERESTING IS AN EYE FOR
- [01:23:15.133]AN EYE, IS IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT,
- [01:23:21.300]IT'S AN ARGUMENT FOR PROPORTIONALITY.
- [01:23:22.433]IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEONE PUTS OUT YOUR EYE,
- [01:23:27.233]YOU DO SOMETHING PROPORTIONAL.
- [01:23:27.667]SO THAT EXTENT, I THINK THAT THEME STILL IS DRIVING OUR
- [01:23:34.800]CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM TODAY.
- [01:23:39.200]WE DEFINE CRIME AND THE WAY WE DESCRIBE HOW SERIOUS THE CRIME
- [01:23:43.133]IS BY THE PENALTY IMPOSE FOR IT.
- [01:23:49.400]THIS CRIME ISN'T IMPORTANT.
- [01:23:55.467]SO SOMETHING LIKE JAYWALKING.
- [01:23:57.300]WE AREN'T GOING TO PUNISH THAT THE WAY WE WOULD A HOMICIDE.
- [01:24:00.667]THAT'S THE WHOLE CONCEPT THAT RUNS THROUGH OUR CRIMINAL
- [01:24:03.700]JUSTICE SYSTEM OF PROPORTIONAL PUNISHMENT.
- [01:24:07.133]AND SO TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT IS AN ANCIENT ARTICULATION OF
- [01:24:12.000]THAT SAME CONCEPT, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY HIT YOU IN THE MOUTH,
- [01:24:18.266]YOU MAY HIT THEM IN THE MOUTH BACK BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE
- [01:24:20.667]COURTS AND LAWYERS TO GET ALL THAT TAKEN CARE OF.
- [01:24:25.233]BUT SOMEBODY HIT YOU IN THE MOUTH, YOU CAN'T KILL THEM.
- [01:24:29.133]I THINK THAT'S THE THEME.
- [01:24:31.400]BUT I'M NO SCHOLAR AND I CAN'T GO BEYOND MY OWN
- [01:24:34.533]ASSUMPTIONS ON THAT.
- [01:24:37.734]>> AND THE DEATH PENALTY IS BECOMING ABSURD.
- [01:24:40.333]THIS IS CRAZY.
- [01:24:41.734]WE'RE SPENDING ALL OF THESE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON ONE GUY
- [01:24:45.567]WHO'S GOING TO DIE IN PRISON ANYHOW, RIGHT?
- [01:24:49.367]THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE NEED TO GIVE MORE EFFECTIVE HEALTH TO
- [01:24:53.867]FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS THAT WE'RE NOT DOING TO
- [01:24:58.900]SOLVING UNSOLVED CASES.
- [01:24:59.867]IT'S GIVING THEM COUNSELING.
- [01:25:01.333]IT'S TRAINING THE MINISTER SO THAT THE MINISTERS KNOW
- [01:25:04.900]HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.
- [01:25:06.700]MINISTERS CAN SAY SOME STUPID THINGS.
- [01:25:09.066]THANK GOD YOUR KID IS IN A BETTER PLACE,
- [01:25:12.934]THIS IS GOD'S WILL.
- [01:25:13.433]THEY'RE NOT GOOD AT DEALING WITH FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS.
- [01:25:16.767]NOR ARE WE IN THE COMMUNITY.
- [01:25:18.233]WE DO A TERRIBLE JOB.
- [01:25:19.600]FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS TALK ABOUT WHEN THIS LOVED ONE
- [01:25:22.767]WAS MURDERED, THEY GO TO WORK, THE NEIGHBORS, THEY DON'T TALK.
- [01:25:26.533]THEY DON'T ASK THEM QUESTIONS, THEY DON'T SAY,
- [01:25:30.200]HEY, HOW ARE YOU?
- [01:25:30.500]THEY DON'T REMEMBER AN ANNIVERSARY OF THE DEATH.
- [01:25:33.567]THEY JUST LIVE THIS STUFF IN SILENCE.
- [01:25:36.166]WE DON'T DO A GOOD JOB AT ALL OF ADDRESSING
- [01:25:39.567]THE NEEDS OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS.
- [01:25:39.934]WE HAVE TO DO BETTER WHETHER OR NOT WE ABOLISH THE DEATH
- [01:25:43.200]PENALTY, WE NEED CASH TO DO IT RIGHT.
- [01:25:45.467]THE ABOLISHING THE DEATH PENALTY GIVES US THE SACK OF CASH THAT'S
- [01:25:49.367]OTHERWISE WASTED ON THE ONE GUY.
- [01:25:51.467]>> I'M NOT SURE THAT MONEY IS WASTED.
- [01:25:54.500]WE'RE CONFRONTED WITH SITUATIONS ROUTINELY.
- [01:25:56.633]I WAS CONFRONTED IN THE JURY THAT I SAT ON THIS GUY KIDNAPPED
- [01:26:06.834]AND KILLED A WOMAN THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW AS A FAVOR TO
- [01:26:12.433]SOMEONE WHO LOANED HIM BAIL MONEY.
- [01:26:13.934]AND WE WENT, WELL, THAT'S A BAD THING.
- [01:26:16.033]HE CONFESSED.
- [01:26:17.533]WE BELIEVED HIS CONFESSION.
- [01:26:18.500]WE GOT TO THE PENALTY PHASE.
- [01:26:23.500]WE FOUND OUT THIS INDIVIDUAL WHEN HE COMMITTED THAT CRIME WAS
- [01:26:26.300]ON PAROLE FOR A HOMICIDE THAT HE COMMITTED WHEN HE WAS 19.
- [01:26:33.834]AND HE WAS SO -- SO HE WAS SHOWN SOME MERCY.
- [01:26:37.800]HE KILLED -- HE WAS SHOWN SOME, SOME -- SOME MERCY, AND HE WAS
- [01:26:47.433]PAROLED AND HE KILLED AGAIN.
- [01:26:50.734]DOES THIS MAN HAVE FUTURE DANGEROUSNESS?
- [01:26:53.233]I NEVER HAVE BEEN CONFRONTED WITH AN EASIER QUESTION
- [01:26:56.967]MY WHOLE LIFE.
- [01:26:57.266]HE KILLED SOMEONE HE DIDN'T KNOW THE FIRST TIME, HE KILLED A
- [01:27:01.467]COMPLETE STRANGER THE SECOND TIME.
- [01:27:02.633]DO WE SAY TO THEM, OKAY, WE HAD A PRISONER IN THE STATE OF
- [01:27:08.066]NEBRASKA BECAUSE GOD TOOK BECAUSE I COULDN'T GET TO HIM.
- [01:27:10.467]HE KILLED TWICE WHILE SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE.
- [01:27:12.934]DOES HE GET THOSE OTHER TWO FOR FREE?
- [01:27:20.000]DO WE PUT TWO ZEROS IN FRONT OF THE NUMBER AND TELL HIM YOU HAVE
- [01:27:23.300]A LICENSE TO KILL, BUDDY, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING MORE WE
- [01:27:28.467]CAN DO TO YOU.
- [01:27:32.300]THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT WHEN I SAY
- [01:27:36.033]PROPORTIONAL PUNISHMENT.
- [01:27:36.433]WHEN WE SAY OUR HANDS ARE TIED BEHIND OUR BACK, YOU'RE JUST
- [01:27:39.467]GOING TO -- THERE ISN'T MORE I CAN DO TO YOU.
- [01:27:43.333]CONSECUTIVE LIFE SENTENCES ISN'T VERY TERRIFYING UNLESS THERE'S
- [01:27:46.433]LIFE AFTER DEATH AND GOD WILL ENFORCE THAT FOR US.
- [01:27:49.367]BUT THAT'S NOT HOW I UNDERSTAND IT WORKS.
- [01:27:52.300]BUT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IN RARE CASES, AND THAT'S ALL
- [01:27:56.667]WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS 10% OF THE HOMICIDES, PEOPLE ACT IN
- [01:28:03.367]WAYS THAT IS SO BEYOND THE PALE OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE IS THE SAME
- [01:28:15.734]THAT THEY HAVE FOR THE FIRST DEGREE MURDER TO GIVE THEM THE
- [01:28:19.700]SAME PUNISHMENT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE RIGHT.
- [01:28:26.433]DOESN'T SEEM TO BE PROPORTIONAL.
- [01:28:36.934]THEY'RE DOING THINGS DID WE GET THE SAME PUNISHMENT
- [01:28:41.133]AS EVERYONE ELSE?
- [01:28:41.433]HOW DO WE WORK OUR WAY THROUGH THAT PROBLEM.
- [01:28:48.734]WE'RE PUTTING UP TO HERE AND BEYOND THAT.
- [01:28:51.567]THAT'S THE BUSINESS WE'RE ENGAGED IN NEBRASKA BY DEFINING
- [01:28:55.000]OUR AGGRAVATING CIRCLES.
- [01:28:56.934]THERE'S NOTING A HAVE A -- AGGRAVATING CIRCUMSTANCES,
- [01:29:03.233]THERE'S NEVER A CHANCE FOR A DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:29:05.767]THAT'S THE CHALLENGE BEFORE US.
- [01:29:06.900]I THINK IT'S A CHALLENGE IF WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY
- [01:29:10.600]OR WE DON'T.
- [01:29:10.900]IF WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY, WHAT DO I SAY TO THE FAMILY OF
- [01:29:14.734]THE GUY WHO WAS KILLED BY SOMEBODY ALREADY SERVING LIFE?
- [01:29:18.467]WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING MORE?
- [01:29:22.133]THAT IS ONE OF THE POSSIBLE ANSWERS BUT I DON'T THINK IT
- [01:29:30.734]WILL DO SOMETHING TO REFLECT TO EVERYBODY THE VALUE WE PLACE ON
- [01:29:33.800]THE LIFE THAT WAS LOST.
- [01:29:35.367]>> CAN WE CONSIDER THAT YOUR CLOSING STATEMENT?
- [01:29:38.433]DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A -- >> I LIKE A CLOSING?
- [01:29:41.500]>> GO AHEAD.
- [01:29:42.500]SINCE YOU OPENED IT, WE'LL LET PROFESSOR RADELET CLOSE IT.
- [01:29:49.300]TWO MINUTES.
- [01:29:53.233]>> OH, I'M GOING FIRST.
- [01:29:55.934]>> ALL RIGHT.
- [01:29:56.633]PARDON ME, I DID TAKE MORE TIME.
- [01:29:59.200]NEXT TO THE DECISION TO SEND OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO WAR, THE DEATH
- [01:30:02.400]PENALTY IS ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC POLICY
- [01:30:05.934]DECISIONS WE MAKE AS A SOCIETY.
- [01:30:07.767]LIKE MANY DIVISIVE ISSUES, THE DEATH PENALTY IS AN ISSUE TO
- [01:30:11.266]WHICH MOST PEOPLE HAVE A STRONG EMOTIONAL REACTION LONG BEFORE
- [01:30:14.800]THEY FORM A THOUGHTFUL RESPONSE.
- [01:30:17.066]ONCE IN THE GRIPS OF EMOTION, WE ARE ALL LIKELY TO UNCRITICALLY
- [01:30:23.500]EMBRACE INFORMATION THAT SUPPORTS OUR EMOTIONAL REACTION
- [01:30:26.800]AND REJECT OUT OF HAND ANY INFORMATION THAT CHALLENGES OUR
- [01:30:29.767]EMOTIONAL REACTION.
- [01:30:35.867]THEREFORE I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO COME HERE
- [01:30:39.200]TONIGHT AND TO THOUGHTFULLY CONSIDER BOTH SIDES
- [01:30:41.633]OF THIS ISSUE.
- [01:30:41.934]BECAUSE IN THE END, WE ARE DISCUSSING THE VALUE WE PLACE
- [01:30:46.967]UPON HUMAN LIFE.
- [01:30:48.133]FROM THE MOMENT OF THE MURDER OF AN INNOCENT TO THE MOMENT OF THE
- [01:30:53.100]EXECUTION OF THE GUILTY, THE DEATH PENALTY SHOULD ALWAYS BE
- [01:30:57.467]DRIVEN BY OUR RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE.
- [01:31:00.900]THE MURDERER HAS SHOWN NO RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE.
- [01:31:04.500]WE MUST DO SO.
- [01:31:09.934]THEREFORE, WE CALM OURSELVES IN THE FACE OF EVIL AND RESPECT THE
- [01:31:13.433]LIFE OF THE PERSON ACCUSED OF MURDER OF DENYING THEM
- [01:31:19.033]MECHANICALLY THE RIGHTS AND REVIEWS IN THE PROCESS OF
- [01:31:22.700]DETERMINING IF THE GOVERNMENT COULD PROVE GUILTY.
- [01:31:26.066]IF GUILTY IS FOUND, THE ACT OF RESPECT FOR THE INNOCENT LIFE
- [01:31:29.533]LOST IS SHOWN BY IMPOSING THE PENALTY THAT IS PROPORTIONATE TO
- [01:31:35.033]THE GUILTY PERSON'S ACTIONS.
- [01:31:37.000]ENFORCEMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY SHOULD NEITHER BE PREVENTED BY
- [01:31:40.867]INDIVIDUAL ACTS OF FORGIVENESS, NOR SHOULD IT BE DEMANDED BY AN
- [01:31:44.500]ACT OF VENGEANCE.
- [01:31:46.166]THE DEATH PENALTY SHOULD REPRESENT NOTHING MORE OR LESS
- [01:31:50.333]THAN MEASURED, RATIONAL RETRIBUTION IN RESPONSE TO THE
- [01:31:55.533]VERY WORST OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR.
- [01:31:57.367]THANK YOU.
- [01:31:57.900]>> THANK YOU, MR. BROWN.
- [01:31:59.367]PROFESSOR RADELET?
- [01:32:02.700]>> THANK YOU.
- [01:32:03.433]THANK YOU FOR YOUR GREAT QUESTIONS.
- [01:32:06.300]MILLION.
- [01:32:06.734]BROWN, THANKS FOR -- YOU'RE GREAT.
- [01:32:09.300]YOU DID A WONDERFUL JOB.
- [01:32:10.200]>> I LOVE YOU TOO.
- [01:32:11.400]>> IT'S NOT A CONCESSION, BY THE WAY.
- [01:32:15.166]I JUST WANT TO RE-EMPHASIZE THE POINT THAT THE OPINION ABOUT THE
- [01:32:19.533]DEATH PENALTY AROUND THE WORLD IS CHANGING RAPIDLY.
- [01:32:22.133]IT'S CHANGING IN THE DIRECTION OF ABOLITION, AND NOWHERE HAS
- [01:32:28.333]THERE BEEN A BACKLASH TO REINSTATE.
- [01:32:31.033]TODAY'S SUPPORT FOR DEATH PENALTY IS FALLING LIKE A ROCK
- [01:32:33.233]AND THIS IS A ONE-WAY STREET.
- [01:32:37.600]MORE AND MORE PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD ARE REALIZING THE
- [01:32:40.467]DEATH PENALTY HAS OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS.
- [01:32:43.867]THE NOTION OF JUSTICE IS ULTIMATELY A MORAL ISSUE FOR THE
- [01:32:47.200]PEOPLE TO DESERVE, JUSTICE.
- [01:32:52.000]THE PENALTY TODAY IS JUST PUNISHMENT.
- [01:32:56.266]THE MAJOR RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS IN NEBRASKA TO THE
- [01:32:59.133]STATE'S MORAL LEADERS, THE ANSWER, GET RID OF IT.
- [01:33:01.867]IS A SUPERIOR DETERRENT TO LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE?
- [01:33:05.533]LET'S ASK THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES IS IN BLUE RUN BON
- [01:33:09.367]COMMISSION THAT JUST COMPLETED THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE STUDY OF
- [01:33:12.200]THE ISSUE IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
- [01:33:13.934]THEIR ANSWER -- AS A DETERRENT, THE DEATH PENALTY IS USELESS.
- [01:33:18.066]THE DEATH PENALTY COSTLY?
- [01:33:20.467]NOWADAYS WITH HEAR A LOT ABOUT THE DISCUSSION OF THE NEED TO
- [01:33:23.533]CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
- [01:33:25.100]BILL O'REILLY OPPOSES THE DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:33:27.734]DON'T CALL HIM A LIBERAL.
- [01:33:28.934]LET'S DO A FISCAL ANALYSIS OF THE DEATH PENALTY THE WAY WE DO
- [01:33:32.166]A FISCAL ANALYSIS OF EVERY OTHER STATE PROGRAM.
- [01:33:38.800]THE RESULT, WE KNOW THE DEATH PENALTY COSTS SEVERAL MORE THAN
- [01:33:43.867]LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE AND THESE MILLIONS COULD BE USED TO MORE
- [01:33:47.133]EFFECTIVELY HELP FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS OR FUND
- [01:33:50.533]PROGRAMS THAT HAVE PROMISE OF REDUCING RATES
- [01:33:53.367]OF CRIMINAL VIOLENCE.
- [01:33:53.734]HOW CAN WE HELP THOSE FAMILIES?
- [01:33:55.800]LET'S ASK THEM?
- [01:33:57.266]THEY'LL TELL YOU -- THEY CERTAINLY HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR
- [01:34:01.567]MURDERS BUT DUMPING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN ONE CASE, THEY'D
- [01:34:04.600]RATHER USE THAT MONEY TO FIND THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED
- [01:34:07.467]THEIR LOVED ONES.
- [01:34:12.033]THEY'D RATHER USE THAT MONEY.
- [01:34:13.467]MOST IMPORTANTLY, I THINK WE NEED TO REALIZE WHAT THE DEATH
- [01:34:17.166]PENALTY DOES TO US, TO US AS A COMMUNITY.
- [01:34:19.834]THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF A SOCIETY DO YOU WANT TO BE?
- [01:34:22.333]HAVE WE EVOLVED BEYOND THE NEED OF A DEATH PENALTY.
- [01:34:25.867]CORETTA SCOTT KING WHO LOST A HUSBAND AND MOTHER-IN-LAW TO
- [01:34:30.000]MURDER PUT IT BEST WHEN SHE WROTE, QUOTE, I OPPOSE THE DEATH
- [01:34:33.467]PENALTY BECAUSE STATE-SPONSORED EXECUTIONS SET A DEHUMANIZING
- [01:34:38.400]EXAMPLE OF BRUTALITY THAT ONLY ENCOURAGES VIOLENCE.
- [01:34:42.200]ALLOWING THE STATE TO KILL ITS OWN CITIZENS DIMINISHES OUR
- [01:34:47.300]HUMANITY IN SUCH A DANGEROUS AND SADISTIC PRECEDENT UNWORTHY
- [01:34:52.266]OF A CIVILIZED SOCIETY.
- [01:34:53.033]I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE CYNICAL JUDGMENT OF THE KILLERS OF MY
- [01:34:56.967]HUSBAND AND HIS MOTHER DESERVED TO BE EXECUTED.
- [01:34:59.667]IT WOULD BE A DISSERVICE TO EVERYTHING IF MY HUSBAND AND
- [01:35:03.333]MOTHER LIVED FOR AND BELIEVED.
- [01:35:04.734]THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO EXPLAIN THE POSITION OF A
- [01:35:08.100]GROWING NUMBER OF AMERICANS AND OTHERS IN OUR WORLDWIDE
- [01:35:11.800]COMMUNITY AND THE OPPOSITION TO THE DEATH PENALTY, I FIRMLY
- [01:35:19.266]BELIEVE THAT THE MORE LIKELY THAT ARE TO OPPOSE IT AND WE
- [01:35:22.867]WILL SEE THE END OF THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE UNITED STATES IN
- [01:35:27.000]THE NEAR FUTURE.
- [01:35:29.967]THANK YOU.
- [01:35:30.667][ APPLAUSE ] >> THANK YOU, PROFESSOR MICHAEL
- [01:35:39.633]RADELET.
- [01:35:40.333]PROFESSOR BROWN.
- [01:35:41.500]THE DIALOGUE IS ADJOURNED.
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